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2 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

At the end of the sequence (too short) the water thrown by the tow boat goes down, so they reacted.

However as I said before, the crash has no importance, whether planned or not, the fall of the boat on one side and then the other IS significant. They were supposidly at 12 kts (habour limits), imagine that at 40 kts ....

Wait, so no comments from you saying "They need time in the boat" and "Give them time" and "Its a brand new boat, and the crew aren't used to them yet, so just give them time"? Sheesh, they don't even have a rig in! 

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5 hours ago, JALhazmat said:

But the simulator!!! It’s the best there is, it’s the best team! It’s kiwi ingenuity! The 50 was perfect out the box, remember they don't need a test boat!

 

how dare you say they are out of control. Not Gods? Really! Disgraceful to suggest that they are mortal!

 

i am of course joking, it’s just funny the ridiculous level of expectation placed on ALL of the teams. 

The AC50 busted two daggerboards/foils on day 1. They don't get it right all the time...

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25 minutes ago, barfy said:

It is not 12kt there Muppet. Speed lane, and where the first shot was taken west of the bridge no speed limit except close to shore.

Significant is that you can still eat with such a small mind.

Ok, there might be no speed limit in this area, excepted that some locals kiwis were saying so and they may know more than you, but do you know it was not at 12 kts ? You don't know shit, idiot. You've got the hook in the throat now. :D

5cba9e6d7246e.image.jpg

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Wow!  Look at that thing pop right back up. 

 

 

Of course all the forward thrust is at deck level and they have both foils down but those are minor details right?

 

keenly watching the show in the same way I’ll watch a school bus figure 8 race. And save me the trickle down effect BS. When was the last time you did a bouy race with a canting keel?

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25 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Ok, there might be no speed limit in this area, excepted that some locals kiwis were saying so and they may know more than you, but do you know it was not at 12 kts ? You don't know shit, idiot. You've got the hook in the throat now. :D

5cba9e6d7246e.image.jpg

Of course it wasn't 12 it, that's easy to see if you spent any time on the water other than on a sailboard, as you say your experience with planing hulls comes from.

Point is, the boys were testing, to do it right in front of the tank farm, on the way back from the upper harbour where they did the first foil, is to guarantee many cameras on point. They are most probably laughing at you! If I made up shot as often as you I would extrapolate their laughter to the pun they made a pun on dolphins.

Get back to your trolling cuz, you and the prolly clown with your " likes" circle jerk, better get him over here with you.

Edit: I would post the harbour speed zones but you are so not worth it.go look it up, come back and apologize, cunt.

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I’m (naively) surprised the Dolphin rose to that height at that low a speed with her arms spread that wide. Those foil arms and wings are f’ing amazing. Things are going to get a bit crazy by Cup time..

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28 minutes ago, barfy said:

Of course it wasn't 12 it, that's easy to see if you spent any time on the water other than on a sailboard, as you say your experience with planing hulls comes from.

Point is, the boys were testing, to do it right in front of the tank farm, on the way back from the upper harbour where they did the first foil, is to guarantee many cameras on point. They are most probably laughing at you! If I made up shot as often as you I would extrapolate their laughter to the pun they made a pun on dolphins.

Get back to your trolling cuz, you and the prolly clown with your " likes" circle jerk, better get him over here with you.

Edit: I would post the harbour speed zones but you are so not worth it.go look it up, come back and apologize, cunt.

You don't know if they were testing, if yes you don't know if it was at the higher or lower spectrum.

But we know we have a boat that crashed and fell on one side, then on the other side, bouncing at a relatively low speed that will be a killer at 40 kts

BTW, you look like a  pretty mad clown fish, .....still the hook in the throat :)

Capture.PNG

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Just now, Tornado-Cat said:

You don't know if they were testing, if yes you don't know if it was at the higher or lower spectrum.

But we know we have a boat that crashed and fell on one side, then on the other side, at relatively low speed.

BTW, you seem pretty mad :)

T-C, barfy doesn't know anything. He assumes too much like all these Clowns & ETNZ Spokespersons do from Kiwi LaLa land :D

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6 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

T-C, barfy doesn't know anything. He assumes too much like all these Clowns & ETNZ Spokespersons do from Kiwi LaLa land :D

Hey Fuckwit, Do you want an official press release/ Announcement about that? lol

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Why are people trying to find issues while it's under tow, especially once it loses it stability.

Anyone who has ever been on a towed boat knows the tow rope yanks you all over the place, if you go too far one way the tow rope will in short order make sure you go the other way and it won't be a gentle transition!  You lose it too far and the tow rope makes it that much worse!

When it's in a steady and stable state, sure you can and should get some useful information, especially about things like potential lift off speeds etc. and I am sure ETNZ are measuring allsorts of other useful information as well. 

But you simply can't read anything particularly useful into the wobbly moments when you have hundreds of horsepower being applied through a rope attached to the bow, there are plenty of boats around the world that tow like total pigs but are very well behaved under their own power!

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Doubt the form of the hull would make much difference to stability when you have 2 massive foils at long distances from the centerline, each with 3T lifting force. Would be very surprised if that behavior was attributable to hull form at all, more like one foil stalled and the other still lifting. + with a loaded up rig in the air, it's not going to happen in the same way anyway - rig will stabilize the platform against this. 

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And again, etnz the tricksters, stage this little show right in front of the rnzys on the way back to base.

That's why I like these guys, playful tricksters. Always remember the padded jerseys whenever this team shows anything to the public like this.

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1 hour ago, Tornado-Cat said:

You don't know if they were testing, if yes you don't know if it was at the higher or lower spectrum.

But we know we have a boat that crashed and fell on one side, then on the other side, bouncing at a relatively low speed that will be a killer at 40 kts

BTW, you look like a  pretty mad clown fish, .....still the hook in the throat :)

Capture.PNG

Well, slightly less hysterical people may see it differently.

 

I assume that in very marginal foiling conditions, both foils may be deployed to get the hull out of the water. However, at some speed the foils will produce too much lift and they will have to get one out of the water.

 

Their models will have given them a figure for this speed, and it looks as if they went out yesterday and confirmed it.

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1 hour ago, Stingray~ said:

I’m (naively) surprised the Dolphin rose to that height at that low a speed with her arms spread that wide. Those foil arms and wings are f’ing amazing. Things are going to get a bit crazy by Cup time..

Personally I’m in favour of a freestyle division or possibly an obstacle course built into the reach to the finish.  

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6 minutes ago, Ex-yachtie said:

Personally I’m in favour of a freestyle division or possibly an obstacle course built into the reach to the finish.  

Personally, I'm looking forward to a 75' version of something like this going upwind...

images.jpg

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16 minutes ago, Ex-yachtie said:

Personally I’m in favour of a freestyle division or possibly an obstacle course built into the reach to the finish.  

A capsize  race might round out the programme too. Always fun in the old P Class. ;-)

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19 minutes ago, Ex-yachtie said:

Personally I’m in favour of a freestyle division or possibly an obstacle course built into the reach to the finish.  

Freestyle only? They might get good at the crawl, the breaststroke, even the backstroke :)

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1 hour ago, oceancruiser said:

You mean forward.

Hey @oceancruiser, you need to change your ridiculously long 'interests' side bar. Thanks!

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If (and that's perhaps a big assumption) they went out with the foils they showed us, those were different. So they can get data from each type as they tow it. See which leg hops more and which doesn't ;)

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Instability was likely caused by having different foils as they were testing while being towed with both down - if the foils were still different on each side as shown at the launching.

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3 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

If (and that's perhaps a big assumption) they went out with the foils they showed us, those were different. So they can get data from each type as they tow it. See which leg hops more and which doesn't ;)

.....  or to investigate hull slamming ?

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3 hours ago, oceancruiser said:

You mean forward.

Hey fuck off with the stupid signature.... your on ignore from now on.

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14 hours ago, TimmyHate said:

Watching the video a few times I have a couple of theories.

1) they were deliberately testing the effect of the foils breaking the surface - watch the huge plumes of water right before it crashes back down

2) they were testing the takeoffs only, so the tender wasnt speeding up to keep the forward momentum 

Although testing the hydro is also possible

 

Edit: another theory I just had is they are using the new cameras to record the effect on the foil arm at takeoff - hence not wanting to maintain the loads. Not a stress test but to verify their models

This. Thx

And doing it on the finish line in front of rnzys. Or maybe the start line ;)

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2 hours ago, flutter said:

Would be very surprised if that behavior was attributable to hull form at all, more like one foil stalled and the other still lifting. + with a loaded up rig in the air, it's not going to happen in the same way anyway - rig will stabilize the platform against this. 

The hull pushed the boat on the side, the foil took the relay and amplified the movement. The rig will either stabilize or destabilize the boat if the hull rotates or not vs the wind at the same time.

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3 hours ago, flutter said:

Doubt the form of the hull would make much difference to stability when you have 2 massive foils at long distances from the centerline, each with 3T lifting force. Would be very surprised if that behavior was attributable to hull form at all, more like one foil stalled and the other still lifting.…

You mean like if they had a different foil on each arm?

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15 hours ago, TimmyHate said:

2) they were testing the takeoffs only, so the tender wasnt speeding up to keep the forward momentum 

Momentum = mass * velocity.

Maintaining momentum doesn't require an increase in speed (supposing mass and direction are constant).

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10 hours ago, alphafb552 said:

Let's see them do that again with a rig and sails up and not being towed... That's when I'll be impressed!

Exactly, different scenario when you have a tow rope pulling the bow. 

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Looks like the cargo ship that capsized off the coast of Georgia stole the kiwi’s super innovative underwater hull design.

 

CE150B43-A7C3-45D3-AD48-3A356ADD5389.jpeg

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I hope people are only saying that for lols not because they actually can't distinguish the massive differences :huh:

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53 minutes ago, RobG said:

Momentum = mass * velocity.

Maintaining momentum doesn't require an increase in speed (supposing mass and direction are constant).

But popping up on the foils does come with an increase in speed of the boat - so the velocity increases, with the mass remaining the same.

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31 minutes ago, Southern Cross said:

 

Look up class rules, all weight criteria are tabled :

“Platform, mast & sail assemblies = 6195 kg”

 

Big skiff.

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2 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

The hull pushed the boat on the side, the foil took the relay and amplified the movement. The rig will either stabilize or destabilize the boat if the hull rotates or not vs the wind at the same time.

What the fuck is this cunt trying to say?

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1 hour ago, TimmyHate said:

But popping up on the foils does come with an increase in speed of the boat - so the velocity increases, with the mass remaining the same.

So when the boat started foiling the reduction in drag was so huge and instantaneous that momentum caused it to accelerate faster than the control systems could compensate, so it ventilated. But the sudden reduction in drag didn't cause the tow boat to change speed at all, so they must have throttled back on purpose. Maybe the tow boat guys were just dicking with the guys in Te Aihe?

Or ENTZ's control systems (software, hardware or wetware) are really shit. Or they did it on purpose. I'm for the latter.

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6 minutes ago, RobG said:

So when the boat started foiling the reduction in drag was so huge and instantaneous that momentum caused it to accelerate faster than the control systems could compensate, so it ventilated. But the sudden reduction in drag didn't cause the tow boat to change speed at all, so they must have throttled back on purpose. Maybe the tow boat guys were just dicking with the guys in Te Aihe?

Or ENTZ's control systems (software, hardware or wetware) are really shit. Or they did it on purpose. I'm for the latter.

Looking at the way Te Aihe appeared to be porpoising in front of anyone with a camera, I agree with you that they were probably having a jolly old giggle doing it.

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10 minutes ago, RobG said:

So when the boat started foiling the reduction in drag was so huge and instantaneous that momentum caused it to accelerate faster than the control systems could compensate, so it ventilated. But the sudden reduction in drag didn't cause the tow boat to change speed at all, so they must have throttled back on purpose. Maybe the tow boat guys were just dicking with the guys in Te Aihe?

Or ENTZ's control systems (software, hardware or wetware) are really shit. Or they did it on purpose. I'm for the latter.

Hey, they're testing.  Learned something, mebbe a lot

Your theory is the best we've seen so far. Well, except your "dicking" comment.

Anyway, far too soon for Kiwi fans to start savaging fingernails.  Stay tuned.

 

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Found this memorable race from 1995 Americas Cup - Team New Zealand vs. One Australia, with my favourite commentator the late Chris Law...

 

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6 hours ago, littlechay said:

Hey fuck off with the stupid signature.... your on ignore from now on.

I agree

 

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4 hours ago, toad said:

What the fuck is this cunt trying to say?

Dunno, must have been something incredibly clever, so I gave the Rat a likey for it. ;)

 

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8 hours ago, Indio said:

Found this memorable race from 1995 Americas Cup - Team New Zealand vs. One Australia, with my favourite commentator the late Chris Law...

 

One Australia was the fastest boat in San Diego, top-to-bottom...:rolleyes:

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18 hours ago, NZL3481 said:

The AC50 busted two daggerboards/foils on day 1. They don't get it right all the time...

Your humility is greatly appreciated.  I can’t help but poke fun at some of the posters that act like supporters of the Fake President. 

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16 hours ago, barfy said:

And again, etnz the tricksters, stage this little show right in front of the rnzys on the way back to base.

That's why I like these guys, playful tricksters. Always remember the padded jerseys whenever this team shows anything to the public like this.

What an idiot.  The NZ Gods are all powerful and know everything. You should order an maga hat while you still can. 

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6 minutes ago, Herfy said:

What an idiot.  The NZ Gods are all powerful and know everything. You should order an maga hat while you still can. 

You're a Crybaby.

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4 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

You're a Crybaby.

Ouch, that hurt...lol. I am going to tell your mom. 

This whole AC is a tremendous learning process.  We all enjoy watching and speculating about what is taking place.

But most of all, every team needs to develop and learn how to sail these strange boats.  

We all have our favorites, but let us try to not be blinded by the perceived brilliance of our team.  

I suspect that videos of the NZ boat’s first capsize will also be described as intentional.

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30 minutes ago, Herfy said:

suspect that videos of the NZ boat’s first capsize will also be described as intentional.

Oh, second one after last cup. Maybe it will be a stability test. Never found out of mini moon on her side was a test.

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35 minutes ago, Herfy said:

I suspect that videos of the NZ boat’s first capsize will also be described as intentional.

Isn't that what Oracle did back in San Francisco? They broke a daggerboard 2 minutes off the dock on their first shakedown sail, then went all out a few weeks later with their overly dramatic pitchpole crash when learning how to foil... Then they pretended to not know how to sail their boat until ETNZ had an 8 race to 1 lead in the Cup match...

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1 hour ago, Brutal said:

Isn't that what Oracle did back in San Francisco? They broke a daggerboard 2 minutes off the dock on their first shakedown sail, then went all out a few weeks later with their overly dramatic pitchpole crash when learning how to foil... Then they pretended to not know how to sail their boat until ETNZ had an 8 race to 1 lead in the Cup match...

...and they were still pretending in Bermuda 4 years later :rolleyes:

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2 hours ago, Herfy said:

...You should order an maga hat while you still can. 

We've already got a better one

ETNZ_cap.jpg.4c92b264994365ed8ea331464e8e719a.jpg

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8 minutes ago, Indio said:

...and they were still pretending in Bermuda 4 years later :rolleyes:

Nah...  They were hella confused in Bermuda...  They didn't know if they needed handles, pedals, a play station controller or a herbie... Oracle went into Bermuda so fucking cocky that I don't think they ever fully developed their boat. When they realized what ETNZ had, it was too late and they were totally fucked...

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14 minutes ago, Brutal said:

Nah...  They were hella confused in Bermuda...  They didn't know if they needed handles, pedals, a play station controller or a herbie... Oracle went into Bermuda so fucking cocky that I don't think they ever fully developed their boat. When they realized what ETNZ had, it was too late and they were totally fucked...

And even the BMX bandit couldn't help.

The crushing defeat that put some hot air back in its box.... what a day.

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23 minutes ago, Brutal said:

Nah...  They were hella confused in Bermuda...  They didn't know if they needed handles, pedals, a play station controller or a herbie... Oracle went into Bermuda so fucking cocky that I don't think they ever fully developed their boat. When they realized what ETNZ had, it was too late and they were totally fucked...

They knew they needed a camo wheel.

Wtf

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9 minutes ago, barfy said:

They knew they needed a camo wheel.

Wtf

What they needed was a normal Bermuda Breeze! OR had a good boat - and, in the designed-for conditions, very fast foils!

What happened during the Finals makes all the more pertinent the AC36 Rule forcing teams to freeze their Finals configuration long before being able to accurately forecast the weather. Foil design sweet-spotting becomes an even bigger gamble than in AC35.

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Any signs of life at the base today? Looks like a decent day for a first sail.

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2 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

What they needed was a normal Bermuda Breeze! OR had a good boat - and, in the designed for conditions, very fast foils!

Very fast, very good.

It was just, sad, in bda..wasn't it SR

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5 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

What they needed was a normal Bermuda Breeze! 

Karma's like that. We shall see who Karma rewards in Auckland.

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6 minutes ago, Woolfy said:

Any signs of life at the base today? Looks like a decent day for a first sail.

It's in already, and this time they remembered the mast!

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5 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

What they needed was a normal Bermuda Breeze!

I couldn’t think of anything more frustrating, except of course designing for a breeze and then someone changing the rules to say you couldn’t sail in that breeze anymore. 

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7 minutes ago, barfy said:

Very fast, very good.

It was just, sad, in bda..wasn't it SR

Yep, it was painful watching them trying to stay up on their bigger-breeze foils but failing while ETNZ cruised around the track despite the sub-10 knot breezes. Will always remember TS calling for a tack and saying “Sorry boys, this is gonna be painful!”

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1 minute ago, olboss said:

It's in already, and this time they remembered the mast!

Sails on board?

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17 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

What they needed was a normal Bermuda Breeze! OR had a good boat - and, in the designed-for conditions, very fast foils!

What happened during the Finals makes all the more pertinent the AC36 Rule forcing teams to freeze their Finals configuration long before being able to accurately forecast the weather. Foil design sweet-spotting becomes an even bigger gamble than in AC35.

Would not have helped OR-Xerox in Bermuda if they had a rule freezing boat configurations as you've suggested! Everyone and their granny seemed to know the weather conditions in BDA that time of the year - except the copiers.

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6 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Can’t figure out how to see when the boat went past, got any snapshots? 

 

Screen Shot 2019-09-10 at 9.51.19 PM.png

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1 minute ago, Indio said:

Would not have helped OR-Xerox in Bermuda if they had a rule freezing boat configurations as you've suggested! Everyone and their granny seemed to know the weather conditions in BDA that time of the year - except the copiers.

The wind during the days the Finals were raced was several knots below normal BDA conditions for that month. The Race Days were even, by coincidence, the lightest of the entire month and I proved it at the time. Coming-day forecasts were the subject of a great amount of media coverage once we all realized Oracle was in relative trouble in anything under about 12 knots.

The Finals included some of the lightest-wind and slowest avg speeds of all the racing in BDA. Yes, I could pull those stats to prove it - again, still I have all of the stats imported into a purpose-designed AC35 database.

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1 minute ago, Stingray~ said:

The wind during the days the Finals were raced was several knots below normal BDA conditions for that month. The Race Days were even, by coincidence, the lightest of the entire month and I proved it at the time. Coming-day forecasts were the subject of a great amount of media coverage once we all realized Oracle was in relative trouble in anything under about 12 knots.

The Finals included some of the lightest-wind and slowest avg speeds of all the racing in BDA. Yes, I could pull those stats to prove it - again, still I have all of the stats imported into a purpose-designed AC35 database.

It was what it was. 

Risk of rare events still is nonzero. Karma, fickle finger of fate, whatever.

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4 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

It was what it was. 

Risk of rare events still is nonzero. Karma, fickle finger of fate, whatever.

Sure but the challenge for the designers could be even bigger in Auckland, especially for the Challengers who have to win the Prada Cup in probably heavier conditions than what the winner will face in the Cup against ETNZ. The weather changes down there a lot more over the period than what normally happens in BDA over the racing period they had scheduled in 2017.

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4 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Sure but the challenge for the designers could be even bigger in Auckland, especially for the Challengers who have to win the Prada Cup in probably heavier conditions than what the winner will face in the Cup against ETNZ. The weather changes down there a lot more over the period than what normally happens in BDA over the racing period they had scheduled in 2017.

It's been done before, Stinger. But hopefully not this go around. 

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7 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Sure but the challenge for the designers could be even bigger in Auckland, especially for the Challengers who have to win the Prada Cup in probably heavier conditions than what the winner will face in the Cup against ETNZ. The weather changes down there a lot more over the period than what normally happens in BDA over the racing period they had scheduled in 2017.

Corner solution probably not the choice.

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4 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Sure but the challenge for the designers could be even bigger in Auckland, especially for the Challengers who have to win the Prada Cup in probably heavier conditions than what the winner will face in the Cup against ETNZ. The weather changes down there a lot more over the period than what normally happens in BDA over the racing period they had scheduled in 2017.

AC36 will be raced in March 2021, and the reality is that March has the most consistent weather of any other time in Auckland!! So I don't know where you got your "weather changes down there a lot more over the period ..." - unless you're spouting BS as usual...

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3 minutes ago, Indio said:

AC36 will be raced in March 2021, and the reality is that March has the most consistent weather of any other time in Auckland!! So I don't know where you got your "weather changes down there a lot more over the period ..." - unless you're spouting BS as usual...

Selective quoting? "The weather changes down there a lot more over the period than what normally happens in BDA"

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Just now, RobG said:

Selective quoting? "The weather changes down there a lot more over the period than what normally happens in BDA"

He was referencing weather "change" in Auckland where AC36 will be raced in March in trying to excuse the copiers' fuck-up in their set-up for Bermuda.

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No sign of sails, but they are putting the wind gear on which doesn’t seem necessary if you’re only going for a tow. 

 

I’ve gotta say, it’s very clever of them to moor their boat in a position with the sun behind them, making it bloody hard to get a decent photo with a shit camera.

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10 minutes ago, Ex-yachtie said:

No sign of sails, but they are putting the wind gear on which doesn’t seem necessary if you’re only going for a tow. 

 

I’ve gotta say, it’s very clever of them to moor their boat in a position with the sun behind them, making it bloody hard to get a decent photo with a shit camera.

Edit, sails are out.

 

BTW, does anyone else have difficulties uploading iPhone photos to these forums?

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16 hours ago, hoom said:

Ooh exciting he's back in business with AC hull shapes ^_^

Working for your excitement Hoom ^_^...!  Initial draft on hull and foils, work in progress. Need to print one when finished, crazy beast.

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15 minutes ago, k2mav said:

Working for your excitement Hoom ^_^...!  Initial draft on hull and foils, work in progress. Need to print one when finished, crazy beast.

image.thumb.png.7b31f6f18ea6940031f367dc0d9e0dff.png

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Congrats k2mav, great contribution to the thread.

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44 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

The Finals included some of the lightest-wind and slowest avg speeds of all the racing in BDA.

AC34 SF, Race 13. Light winds meant that despite a 1km lead and 90% of the course completed, the race was abandoned due to the time limit and ETNZ denied the cup win. You've got to play what you're dealt but I see this as a bigger tragedy than OR's loss in Bermuda :D

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2 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

Not sure if this angle has been posted yet or not...

 

Tow, Tow, Tow your boat...

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21 minutes ago, Ex-yachtie said:

Edit, sails are out.

 

BTW, does anyone else have difficulties uploading iPhone photos to these forums?

It works for me, you select the photo but (hard to see sometimes) press the + to add it to the post, then Submit.

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7 minutes ago, Sea Breeze 74 said:

AC34 SF, Race 13. Light winds meant that despite a 1km lead and 90% of the course completed, the race was abandoned due to the time limit and ETNZ denied the cup win. You've got to play what you're dealt but I see this as a bigger tragedy than OR's loss in Bermuda :D

Yes, we all remember that crushing-for ETNZ race. Point is, racing at the radical ends of conditions produces results that aren’t the best tests of ‘Who brought the best yacht’! The AC was always intended as a Design competition. Well-rounded very-fast yachts should not get blindsided by conditions-gambled outliers - in my ideal world anyway :)

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3 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Yes, we all remember that crushing-for ETNZ race. Point is, racing at the radical ends of conditions produce results that aren’t the best tests of ‘Who brought the best yacht’!

In yacht racing, that's a given, Stinger. It's a pointless discussion - it's  like woulda, coulda, shoulda.

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