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2 hours ago, ~HHN92~ said:

Shouldn't you be over in the NYYC thread, that is where Deano is now...

Hahaha....

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What is interesting is the position of the grinders...

For NZ, the grinders are sideways (facing starboard/port) while NYYC is facing forward/back.

Looks like NZ could pack the weight more forward, but loose aero with wider slots for the grinders. 

NYYC could get smaller slots for crew and have a wider endplate effect.

1.png

70410765_491921978031266_5429071110069026816_o.jpg.638580149d7f6228ae77b9611c02bdfa.jpg

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1 hour ago, Woolfy said:

Any signs of life?

No. I thought I saw the crane up but there’ No sign of a rig (from a distance). 

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11 minutes ago, dbeauvar said:

What is interesting is the position of the grinders...

For NZ, the grinders are sideways (facing starboard/port) while NYYC is facing forward/back.

Looks like NZ could pack the weight more forward, but loose aero with wider slots for the grinders. 

NYYC could get smaller slots for crew and have a wider endplate effect.

1.png

70410765_491921978031266_5429071110069026816_o.jpg.638580149d7f6228ae77b9611c02bdfa.jpg

These are the first full-size test mules - everything would be on the table...Looking at that AM photo, I wonder if the foil arm can be designed to be manipulated to assist with flight control?

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1 minute ago, Indio said:

These the first full-size test mules - everything would be on the table...Looking at that AM photo, I wonder if the foil arm be designed to be manipulated to assist with flight control?

Like the phone holders on top of pedestals 

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1 minute ago, hairyharford said:

Like the phone holders on top of pedestals 

The Nespresso coffee cup-holders are being tested for aero-efficiency before installation.

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9 minutes ago, dbeauvar said:

What is interesting is the position of the grinders...

For NZ, the grinders are sideways (facing starboard/port) while NYYC is facing forward/back.

Looks like NZ could pack the weight more forward, but loose aero with wider slots for the grinders. 

NYYC could get smaller slots for crew and have a wider endplate effect.

1.png

70410765_491921978031266_5429071110069026816_o.jpg.638580149d7f6228ae77b9611c02bdfa.jpg

I think we’re seeing two different approaches to how the boat is sailed. 

Team NZ have deep cockpits divided by their central spine which acts as an end plate to the main. Crew are positioned on each side, one of whom observes (and trims?) the leeward mainsail skin. The afterguard move from side to side around the back. 

 

NYYC have a much more traditional setup with free movement from side to side, maximising righting moment. 

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2 minutes ago, hairyharford said:

Like the phone holders on top of pedestals 

 

Would that be an iPhone or a Samsung phone holder?

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The Kiwi media are just warming up... :D

America's Cup: Early brinkmanship from Team NZ and American Magic a sign of things to come

OPINION: The race within the race for the America's Cup is well and truly under way and the brinkmanship over the first week has been fascinating.

https://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/americas-cup/115733230/americas-cup-early-brinkmanship-from-team-nz-and-american-magic-a-sign-of-things-to-come

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8 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

The Kiwi media are just warming up... :D

America's Cup: Early brinkmanship from Team NZ and American Magic a sign of things to come

OPINION: The race within the race for the America's Cup is well and truly under way and the brinkmanship over the first week has been fascinating.

https://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/americas-cup/115733230/americas-cup-early-brinkmanship-from-team-nz-and-american-magic-a-sign-of-things-to-come

Wasn't NYYC the first to have the boat out of the shed too? Seems like 2 rounds to nil.

Damn hyperbole and lies! Heh.

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3 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

The Kiwi media are just warming up... :D

America's Cup: Early brinkmanship from Team NZ and American Magic a sign of things to come

OPINION: The race within the race for the America's Cup is well and truly under way and the brinkmanship over the first week has been fascinating.

https://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/americas-cup/115733230/americas-cup-early-brinkmanship-from-team-nz-and-american-magic-a-sign-of-things-to-come

The local idiot "media" are only filling in time until the Rugby World Cup kicks off in Japan in a fortnight, and then they'll be trawling AC Anarchy and other sailing sites for their AC "news".

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3 minutes ago, smackdaddy said:

Wasn't NYYC the first to have the boat out of the shed too? Seems like 2 rounds to nil.

Damn hyperbole and lies!

Fuck mate, that's a bit rich coming from you.

You still haven't confirmed the rumour that you work for Core Composites, everyone is saying it.

Fess up, you know you want to.

BTW if I was your boss watching this debacle of yours ... I wouldn't be too happy.  Honesty is required when dealing with your mates in the sailing community.

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24 minutes ago, smackdaddy said:

Wasn't NYYC the first to have the boat out of the shed too? Seems like 2 rounds to nil.

Damn hyperbole and lies! Heh.

The hyperbole is just starting, all he ‘fight’ analogies will be followed shortly by screaming accusations of CHEATING and worse! 

Since 90% of the coverage of AC36 will be from NZ media, we are in for a real treat, a ‘cultural’ thing :D

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12 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

The hyperbole is just starting, all he ‘fight’ analogies will be followed shortly by screaming accusations of CHEATING and worse! 

Since 90% of the coverage of AC36 will be from NZ media, we are in for a real treat, a ‘cultural’ thing :D

Nope, the cheaters are out of AC36 - good riddance:lol:

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12 minutes ago, Indio said:

Nope, the cheaters are out of AC36 - good riddance:lol:

To be fair, Oracle shit-canned Tienpont and/or de Ridder over lead-gate asap, that bastard. 

NZ media will be rife with conspiracy theories like the f’ing ridiculous Herbie bullshit, freshly imagined accusations of all kinds of other shit, will be militantly aggressive home-boys, just like in their Rugby coverage. Headline-grabbing clickbait, London’s Sun style. To be fair, the likes of GD and others do get time air time and they often tamper that down a touch, especially in radio interviews.

GD made an interesting argument recently, I think it was audio, where he said something like ‘Some people think we have an unfair advantage because our guys came up with the design over many months before choosing and releasing the Rule, but: What I’m nervous about is if during that period we got too channeled into a path. Other designers may take very different paths, ones we weren’t open-minded enough to having been so immersed.”

I guess it’s a reasonable concern of his and a reasonable-enough counter-argument but...No, I’m not buying it! :) Even using the super-simulators design teams have, months matters when it comes to the number of simulation-cycles run. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Stingray~ said:

The Kiwi media are just warming up... :D

America's Cup: Early brinkmanship from Team NZ and American Magic a sign of things to come

OPINION: The race within the race for the America's Cup is well and truly under way and the brinkmanship over the first week has been fascinating.

https://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/americas-cup/115733230/americas-cup-early-brinkmanship-from-team-nz-and-american-magic-a-sign-of-things-to-come

Nice photo from there

4E206496-72E0-4CCD-9ACB-ECAC6D20A4AA.jpeg.5ad107dbd3acac5b8fbde82c4dd81a0b.jpeg

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24 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

 using the super-simulators

We were told that super simulators were the ultimate weapon. Fact is that AM was foiling right out of the box and that months of training on the water paid. No need for a supposed test with foiling and crashing behind a tow boat. Now let's see what Ineos and LR are up to.

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3 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

We were told that super simulators were the ultimate weapon. Fact is that AM was foiling right out of the box and that months of training on the water paid. No need for a supposed test with foiling and crashing behind a tow boat. Now let's see what Ineos and LR are up to.

Yes, very-very impressive that AM foiled almost first time off the dock! 

Their paint job and hull lines may not look quite as skexy as ETNZ but so far they look well-prepared and the coming ‘Christening’ event could provide some gorgeous photos - finally!

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1 minute ago, Stingray~ said:

Yes, very-very impressive that AM foiled almost first time off the dock! 

Their paint job and hull lines may not look quite as skexy as ETNZ but so far they look well-prepared and the coming ‘Christening’ event could provide some gorgeous photos - finally!

Yep, pretty ugly hull on a dock but beautiful when flying. And mainly AM is the first in the history to get an AC75 foiling !

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9 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

We were told that super simulators were the ultimate weapon. Fact is that AM was foiling right out of the box and that months of training on the water paid. No need for a supposed test with foiling and crashing behind a tow boat. Now let's see what Ineos and LR are up to.

Here we go... Dejavu...everone said ETNZ and their simulator had no chance against the time the Bermuda teams were getting on the water...we all know that was not the case.

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The boat is beautiful, but that sail has way too much graphics on it.  Looks like a floating billboard with parts of the last 4-5 ads showing through.

 

83D4814F-29D3-42A1-A1A7-E073DF696EEB.jpeg

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6 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

Here we go... Dejavu...everone said ETNZ and their simulator had no chance against the time the Bermuda teams were getting on the water...we all know that was not the case.

‘Super’ simulator technology is a constantly-evolving technology and NZ (of all places) has no exclusive patent on it. We see HP on the foil arms (was it Dell last time?) but gawd-knows what computing power others are tapping into.

It comes down to SME (Subject Matter Expertise) when deciding what areas of research to focus on. Bernasconi surely has an excellent grip on that, but he has no patent on thought processes either. 

 

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56 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

To be fair, Oracle shit-canned Tienpont and/or de Ridder over lead-gate asap, that bastard. 

NZ media will be rife with conspiracy theories like the f’ing ridiculous Herbie bullshit, freshly imagined accusations of all kinds of other shit, will be militantly aggressive home-boys, just like in their Rugby coverage. Headline-grabbing clickbait, London’s Sun style. To be fair, the likes of GD and others do get time air time and they often tamper that down a touch, especially in radio interviews.

GD made an interesting argument recently, I think it was audio, where he said something like ‘Some people think we have an unfair advantage because our guys came up with the design over many months before choosing and releasing the Rule, but: What I’m nervous about is if during that period we got too channeled into a path. Other designers may take very different paths, ones we weren’t open-minded enough to having been so immersed.”

I guess it’s a reasonable concern of his and a reasonable-enough counter-argument but...No, I’m not buying it! :) Even using the super-simulators design teams have, months matters when it comes to the number of simulation-cycles run. 

 

 

:D Hahaha!! As you yanks say - cheaters cheat, and OR-Xerox were the biggest of 'em all in America's Cup history.

But the most enjoyable thing for us is knowing that MAGArds like you are festering in your unrequited schadenfreude, and because you have no dog in AC36 you'll just be sitting in your damp basement scouring the internet for anything AC-related so you can stay "connected"...

This is what it's all about....

5959e58b74bda_DaltsCup.jpg.7b70bd65e7c5071b2de97e2e176c1da2.jpg

 

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22 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

‘Super’ simulator technology is a constantly-evolving technology and NZ (of all places) has no exclusive patent on it. We see HP on the foil arms (was it Dell last time?) but gawd-knows what computing power others are tapping into.

It comes down to SME (Subject Matter Expertise) when deciding what areas of research to focus on. Bernasconi surely has an excellent grip on that, but he has no patent on thought processes either. 

 

Not at all. 

But Idiot comments like these  "Fact is that AM was foiling right out of the box and that months of training on the water paid. No need for a supposed test with foiling and crashing behind a tow boat" are just stupid, and have obviously been proved wrong in the past.

Fact is, Yes, AM were first to foil this cycle. Whether that pays or not remain to be seen. Simulator technology proved to be the key factor last time, and still may prove to be the key factor this time. No one will know until the final race of the Americas Cup match.

Having said that, No, ETNZ or Bernasconi don't have a patent on "Super simulator" technology, but they can claim to be the one team who has, in the entire history of the Americas Cup, to date, implemented simulator tecgnology most effectively with successful results.

Oracle last time, had arguably the largest resource of computer power of all of the teams, yet they were completely outclassed.

So you'e correct, it comes down to Subject matter expertise, and again, to date, ETNZ, and Team NZ before them, arguably have the most proven track record of any team in the history of the Americas Cup, bar Australia (The winged Keel) of innovation, expertise and ability to think outside the square which has spurned new directions within different class rules.

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

Not at all. 

But Idiot comments like these  "Fact is that AM was foiling right out of the box and that months of training on the water paid. No need for a supposed test with foiling and crashing behind a tow boat" are just stupid.

Fact is, Yes, AM were first to foil this cycle. Whether that pays or not remain to be seen. Simulator technology proved to be the key factor last time, and still may prove to be the key factor this time. No one will know until the final race of the Americas Cup match.

Having said that, No, ETNZ or Bernasconi don't have a patent on "Super simulator" technology, but they can claim to be the one team who has, in the entire history of the Americas Cup, to date, implemented simulator tecgnology most effectively with successful results.

Oracle last time, had arguably the largest resource of computer power of all of the teams, yet they were completely outclassed.

So you'e correct, it comes down to Subject matter expertise, and again, to date, ETNZ, and Team NZ before them, arguably have the most proven track record of any team in the history of the Americas Cup, bar Australia (The winged Keel) of innovation, expertise and ability to think outside the square which has spurned new directions within different class rules.

 

 

The Italian/Brit Bernasconi has assembled an excellent group of designers, for sure. 

Oracle hit the wrong sweet spots for their low-speed foils, but by only about 2 knots above what eventuated. So what? 

And sorry to burst your bubble but there’s f-all uniquely Kiwi about the ETNZ designs - let alone the technology used to come up with them. The Deed of Gift is all about the Yacht and the Club and its Country. If the yacht is designed by foreigners, is that even Deed-legal? Where’s the national pride, the sailors who have f-all mention in the Deed? 

 

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55 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

‘Super’ simulator technology is a constantly-evolving technology and NZ (of all places) has no exclusive patent on it. We see HP on the foil arms (was it Dell last time?) but gawd-knows what computing power others are tapping into.

It comes down to SME (Subject Matter Expertise) when deciding what areas of research to focus on. Bernasconi surely has an excellent grip on that, but he has no patent on thought processes either. 

 

These days the hardware used for simulation has literally zip to do with the results (provided there is enough of it).  The algorithms and datasets are the valuable bits,  it's worth remembering New Zealand is literally one of the top places to get a boat designed and built, sure we don't have exclusive rights on inventing any of this stuff, but I am sure there is mountains of proprietory software and datasets involved in the ETNZ setup both from within the team itself and the wider New Zealand yacht design and build indsutry. 

You can take a designer elsewhere, he can't really take anything except the ideas in his head with him, sure he can say "but the ETNZ simulator could do this!" that doesn't magically create that same function in someone else's simulator, software creation is an astonishingly labour and expertise intensive business that takes iteration after iteration to achieve meaningful results, there are likely huge portions of the simulation that the designers have no clue of the actual algorithms involved, they don't need to, they need to know the results and that the results are as accurate as possible!

Also for what it's worth, I bet ETNZ actually do hold a portfolio of exclusive patents and copyrights, as does anybody creating any significant amount of software, especially software that involves complex processes or algorithms that are actually patentable.

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1 hour ago, Stingray~ said:

To be fair, Oracle shit-canned Tienpont and/or de Ridder over lead-gate asap, that bastard

Maybe you should inform yourself a little bit, before jabbering on with your pathetic drivel.

Rewriting history, and spouting shit, please go back into rehab!

 

 

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45 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

@Stingray~,

Why the heck do you have a conversation with this Clown @Forourselves? He is a clown, doesn't even know how a sailboat operates, never stood on a sailboat, etc.

yeah but is @Forourselves a clown though? Can't tell from your Post

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1 hour ago, Tornado-Cat said:

We were told that super simulators were the ultimate weapon. Fact is that AM was foiling right out of the box and that months of training on the water paid.

Maybe no one told them that training in a surrogate was a waste of time?

You can't crap on ETNZ for tow testing, they can try lots of things at low speed behind a tow boat more controlled and at lower risk than sailing with a full rig, especially the crash test stuff. There's no substitute for testing models in RL, at the limits is where things go wrong.

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1 hour ago, Forourselves said:

Not at all. 

But Idiot comments like these  "Fact is that AM was foiling right out of the box and that months of training on the water paid. No need for a supposed test with foiling and crashing behind a tow boat" are just stupid, and have obviously been proved wrong in the past.

Fact is, Yes, AM were first to foil this cycle. Whether that pays or not remain to be seen. Simulator technology proved to be the key factor last time, and still may prove to be the key factor this time. No one will know until the final race of the Americas Cup match.

Having said that, No, ETNZ or Bernasconi don't have a patent on "Super simulator" technology, but they can claim to be the one team who has, in the entire history of the Americas Cup, to date, implemented simulator tecgnology most effectively with successful results.

Oracle last time, had arguably the largest resource of computer power of all of the teams, yet they were completely outclassed.

So you'e correct, it comes down to Subject matter expertise, and again, to date, ETNZ, and Team NZ before them, arguably have the most proven track record of any team in the history of the Americas Cup, bar Australia (The winged Keel) of innovation, expertise and ability to think outside the square which has spurned new directions within different class rules.

 

 

NASCAR, IndyCar, etc. have had simulators for years, with 'shaker rigs' that tested the suspension in a lab before setting the car up for the track, drivers using simulators to practice. All that and they still miss the set-up from time to time. If it was all perfect then all the cars would be right-on every time they hit the track. The human factor still has a place in this sport.

 

For ETNZ last time it was the cyclors, they were a solution that would work in this case of pumping oil, unlike the ones used instead of coffee grinders back in the 12's.

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2 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

To be fair, Oracle shit-canned Tienpont and/or de Ridder over lead-gate asap, that bastard. 

NZ media will be rife with conspiracy theories like the f’ing ridiculous Herbie bullshit, freshly imagined accusations of all kinds of other shit, will be militantly aggressive home-boys, just like in their Rugby coverage. Headline-grabbing clickbait, London’s Sun style. To be fair, the likes of GD and others do get time air time and they often tamper that down a touch, especially in radio interviews.

GD made an interesting argument recently, I think it was audio, where he said something like ‘Some people think we have an unfair advantage because our guys came up with the design over many months before choosing and releasing the Rule, but: What I’m nervous about is if during that period we got too channeled into a path. Other designers may take very different paths, ones we weren’t open-minded enough to having been so immersed.”

I guess it’s a reasonable concern of his and a reasonable-enough counter-argument but...No, I’m not buying it! :) Even using the super-simulators design teams have, months matters when it comes to the number of simulation-cycles run. 

 

NZ media will be rife with conspiracy theories like the f’ing ridiculous Herbie bullshit, freshly imagined accusations of all kinds of other shit, will be militantly aggressive home-boys, just like in their Rugby coverage. Headline-grabbing clickbait, London’s Sun style.

No need for NZ media to trade punches. You're doing an excellent job yourself of stirring the pot.

Must say Duncan J at stuff.co.nz is leading the way in well-written, informed reporting and commentary.

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1 hour ago, Stingray~ said:

The Italian/Brit Bernasconi has assembled an excellent group of designers, for sure. 

Oracle hit the wrong sweet spots for their low-speed foils, but by only about 2 knots above what eventuated. So what? 

And sorry to burst your bubble but there’s f-all uniquely Kiwi about the ETNZ designs - let alone the technology used to come up with them. The Deed of Gift is all about the Yacht and the Club and its Country. If the yacht is designed by foreigners, is that even Deed-legal? Where’s the national pride, the sailors who have f-all mention in the Deed? 

 

Perhaps ask Oracle Team AUS what they think of that very same question???

 

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7 hours ago, Xlot said:

 

  ^ Rigging is supposed to be standard for all boats. When the first renderings came out, it was suggested that spreaders would be hinged - waiting for real life confirmation

American Magic spreaders are hinged and fold in when rig is stored. May solely be a storage mechanism that locks when the rig is put in but I have seen the rig on land with both spreaders flipped back.

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1 hour ago, Stingray~ said:

Oracle hit the wrong sweet spots for their low-speed foils, but by only about 2 knots above what eventuated. So what? 

So what? Well as karma and the wind gods had it, THAT MADE ALL THE DIFFERENCE. 

Quote

And sorry to burst your bubble but there’s f-all uniquely Kiwi about the ETNZ designs - let alone the technology used to come up with them. The Deed of Gift is all about the Yacht and the Club and its Country. If the yacht is designed by foreigners, is that even Deed-legal? Where’s the national pride, the sailors who have f-all mention in the Deed? 

THE SAILORS on the Defender's boat did the best they could with the boat they had.  Many of them have a great deal of national pride for THEIR countries.  You saw that when they won SailGP in Sydney and got the medal from John Bertrand. But as it was, I believe there was one sailor from the country corresponding to GGYC on the OTAUS boat for AC35.

And PS I was an Oracle Team fan through 2017.  

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5 hours ago, dbeauvar said:

What is interesting is the position of the grinders...

For NZ, the grinders are sideways (facing starboard/port) while NYYC is facing forward/back.

Looks like NZ could pack the weight more forward, but loose aero with wider slots for the grinders. 

NYYC could get smaller slots for crew and have a wider endplate effect.

1.png

70410765_491921978031266_5429071110069026816_o.jpg.638580149d7f6228ae77b9611c02bdfa.jpg

There is something wrong with these photos.  The upper photo shows two grinding pedestals set up so that the grinders are facing the side of the boat.

The lower photo shows a crew of seven people with two grinders facing fore and aft.  How many grinding stations are there? and are we sure that the bottom photo is an AC75 and not a training mule?

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9 minutes ago, Terry Hollis said:

There is something wrong with these photos.  The upper photo shows two grinding pedestals set up so that the grinders are facing the side of the boat.

The lower photo shows a crew of seven people with two grinders facing fore and aft.  How many grinding stations are there? and are we sure that the bottom photo is an AC75 and not a training mule?

There's a reason the ETNZ grinders are facing inboard - It's because the boat will be heeled to windward a big chunk of the time. That's what the wedges on the cockpit floor are for. The grinders have a good footing so they can get their chest over the pumps regardless of how the boat is heeled and what side of the boat they are on...

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9 minutes ago, Terry Hollis said:

There is something wrong with these photos.  The upper photo shows two grinding pedestals set up so that the grinders are facing the side of the boat.

The lower photo shows a crew of seven people with two grinders facing fore and aft.  How many grinding stations are there? and are we sure that the bottom photo is an AC75 and not a training mule?

Could it be that they are actually two different boats....... Conspiracy perhaps?

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2 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Yep, pretty ugly hull on a dock but beautiful when flying. And mainly AM is the first in the history to get an AC75 foiling !

Have you been stealing Meds/Lolly Water off that fLORiDa fuckwit?????

Because you sure are starting to sound like him with all that Hyperbole

Just take a step back; yes, being the first to fly one is an achievement, but in terms of history, it will be the winning team that might be remembered as significant and noteworthy...... Still not guaranteed tho

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20 minutes ago, Roota said:

Could it be that they are actually two different boats....... Conspiracy perhaps?

One is the American boat the other is the NZ boat.

 

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23 minutes ago, NZL3481 said:

It's because the boat will be heeled to windward a big chunk of the time.

Good point. Facing fore/aft and leaning sideways might not be so comfy or conducive to good power output.

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1 hour ago, Horn Rock said:

Good point. Facing fore/aft and leaning sideways might not be so comfy or conducive to good power output.

ETNZ are already one step ahead of the Americans with boat 1...

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3 hours ago, Forourselves said:

So you'e correct, it comes down to Subject matter expertise, and again, to date, ETNZ, and Team NZ before them, arguably have the most proven track record of any team in the history of the Americas Cup, bar Australia (The winged Keel) of innovation, expertise and ability to think outside the square which has spurned new directions within different class rules.

Ever heard of a sailboat called America?  It was an innovative boat back when New Zealand was just a sparkle in the eye of its daddy, the UK.  

I think it is save to say that the US has the most proven track record on subject matter expertise in the history of the Americas Cup.  The AC didn't just start in the late 1980's when NZ started to compete!

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1 hour ago, Boink said:

Have you been stealing Meds/Lolly Water off that fLORiDa fuckwit?????

Because you sure are starting to sound like him with all that Hyperbole

Just take a step back; yes, being the first to fly one is an achievement, but in terms of history, it will be the winning team that might be remembered as significant and noteworthy...... Still not guaranteed tho

You don't think it will be uPintheHistOry ?

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3 hours ago, Boybland said:

These days the hardware used for simulation has literally zip to do with the results (provided there is enough of it).  The algorithms and datasets are the valuable bits,  it's worth remembering New Zealand is literally one of the top places to get a boat designed and built, sure we don't have exclusive rights on inventing any of this stuff, but I am sure there is mountains of proprietory software and datasets involved in the ETNZ setup both from within the team itself and the wider New Zealand yacht design and build indsutry. 

You can take a designer elsewhere, he can't really take anything except the ideas in his head with him, sure he can say "but the ETNZ simulator could do this!" that doesn't magically create that same function in someone else's simulator, software creation is an astonishingly labour and expertise intensive business that takes iteration after iteration to achieve meaningful results, there are likely huge portions of the simulation that the designers have no clue of the actual algorithms involved, they don't need to, they need to know the results and that the results are as accurate as possible!

Also for what it's worth, I bet ETNZ actually do hold a portfolio of exclusive patents and copyrights, as does anybody creating any significant amount of software, especially software that involves complex processes or algorithms that are actually patentable.

The algorithms are all built off of data and assumptions.  There are many more difficult simulations and predictive algorithms than an AC sailboat.  NZ seems to have an excellent simulator, but don't think for a second that there are not hundreds of programers, physicists, etc in many other countries that could also develop one that works.  Many of the other teams did not devote the time to developing an effective simulator like the kiwi's have done.  Again, excellent work, but it can be built by other if they want to commit the resources.

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29 minutes ago, Herfy said:

Ever heard of a sailboat called America?  It was an innovative boat back when New Zealand was just a sparkle in the eye of its daddy, the UK.  

I think it is save to say that the US has the most proven track record on subject matter expertise in the history of the Americas Cup.  The AC didn't just start in the late 1980's when NZ started to compete!

so predictable... thats why i said "arguably" you wanna argue about it? Fine, but i'm not gonna argue with someone who will find, anything, anything at all to find a conspiracy theory about, even when there's nothing there. Haters gonna hate...

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21 minutes ago, NZL3481 said:

ETNZ are already one step ahead of the Americans with boat 1...

Big call, but yeah clearly differences between the two. I wonder if Te Aihe has a few inches of extra beam due to the recessed foil pivot points, and thus a bit extra RM at slow speeds?

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15 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

Big call, but yeah clearly differences between the two. I wonder if Te Aihe has a few inches of extra beam due to the recessed foil pivot points, and thus a bit extra RM at slow speeds?

Well we don't know yet on this one. Did anybody call TNZ to be ahead the day they launched their AC35 Cat with cycles.?  History shows TNZ design fast boats so this could be the case? But how do we know American Magic don't have it right? Looks like a very light and simplistic flying boat to me? The NZ boat has all sorts of things going on under the hull when you look at it straight on, haven't seen the other boats yet in the same light?

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6 minutes ago, terrafirma said:

But how do we know American Magic don't have it right?

Well we don't....They both can't be right I guess. The strategy to get airborne quick is one aspect, but once up there, the foil design and how optimized the power source is will be critical. Lots of room for variation here, so watching these things go about their business is going to be fascinating.

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38 minutes ago, Herfy said:

The algorithms are all built off of data and assumptions.  There are many more difficult simulations and predictive algorithms than an AC sailboat.  NZ seems to have an excellent simulator, but don't think for a second that there are not hundreds of programers, physicists, etc in many other countries that could also develop one that works.  Many of the other teams did not devote the time to developing an effective simulator like the kiwi's have done.  Again, excellent work, but it can be built by other if they want to commit the resources.

It can, but for it to reach a point of being as effective as the ETNZ one takes time, you can't just write a simulator and assume it will generate exactly the data you need, regardless of what your creating real effectiveness only comes after endless loops of feedback and refinement which is the point I was trying to make. 

People seem to think a team member could just walk out of ETNZ and create the same setup with relative ease, it simply isn't the case, the ETNZ system now has something like 10 years of feedback and improvements fed into it, sure you can make it functional and reasonably effective, but no amount of money will make up for development time. 

The team I would put as having pretty decent simulation this time around is INEOS, they will almost certainly have a lot of know how to work off from last time, the other question I guess is what happened to the IP out of Oracle once they decided not to compete, are they sitting on it or did it in some form get transferred to other teams? If you were a new team, it would give you a pretty decent leg up to have some of their information.

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42 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

Big call, but yeah clearly differences between the two. I wonder if Te Aihe has a few inches of extra beam due to the recessed foil pivot points, and thus a bit extra RM at slow speeds?

And at what angle of heel ( at slow speeds) does that come into effect ?  ........  just about before capsizing :-)

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15 minutes ago, Southern Cross said:

And at what angle of heel ( at slow speeds) does that come into effect ?

They might be able to pivot over to windward on that central hump which might help a bit.

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1 hour ago, Herfy said:

The algorithms are all built off of data and assumptions.  There are many more difficult simulations and predictive algorithms than an AC sailboat.  NZ seems to have an excellent simulator, but don't think for a second that there are not hundreds of programers, physicists, etc in many other countries that could also develop one that works.  Many of the other teams did not devote the time to developing an effective simulator like the kiwi's have done.  Again, excellent work, but it can be built by other if they want to commit the resources.

I think you are out of your league here talking simulators. Not that I code shit like that,but it's a bit more involved than algorithms and assumptions cuz. It's a complex tool I'm sure. Im sure they have a modular architecture, able to plug in entire sections as needed. Like double skin.or super cavitation. This is a mature tool of near ten years. There aren't hundreds of folk gonna bake a cake like this in short order. Yeah nah

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1 minute ago, Horn Rock said:

They might be able to pivot over to windward on that central hump which might help a bit.

Mk 2  version may have more volume (in the central “speed” hump) shortening the waterline even more and further reducing the wetted surface !!

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1 hour ago, NZL3481 said:

ETNZ are already one step ahead of the Americans with boat 1...

Not a bit early to say? OTUSA first AC72 came out of the shed with fairings and smaller profile looked well ahead of the tractor if first looks are all you are considering. 

Turns out it was a flexzilla not designed to fully foil. Too early to tell.

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3 hours ago, Terry Hollis said:

There is something wrong with these photos.  The upper photo shows two grinding pedestals set up so that the grinders are facing the side of the boat.

The lower photo shows a crew of seven people with two grinders facing fore and aft.  How many grinding stations are there? and are we sure that the bottom photo is an AC75 and not a training mule?

Terry,

First pic is ETNZ setup, second pic is NYYC setup.

i think ETNZ has 2 pedestals on each sides (8 grinders) and then after guard with the main winch and wheel for 3 guys. Those 3 sailors would switch sides after tack/jibes. The grinders stay in position. 

I think NYYC has similar setup, but as the grinders are down, we do t see them on the picture (the angle of the pic makes it even more difficult to see the starboard grinders.

the only difference between ETNZ and NYYC is the orientation of the pedestal/grinders. 

For ETNZ, they are sideways, while NYYC are forward/back. 

As someone else said, the ETNZ configuration might be easier when the boat is slightly heeled.  

So what will be the final (and best) configuration?

 

Regards,

D.

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1 hour ago, Herfy said:

 when New Zealand was just a sparkle in the eye of its daddy, the UK.  

Your daddy too. But you are right we are younger and not yet senile ;-)

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8 minutes ago, Priscilla said:

Is the mainsail twin skin?

70410765_491921978031266_5429071110069026816_o.thumb.jpg.b218007e42c95e71e176ea3d0f8da1bf.jpg

Zoom in on the leech.  Two separate Leech tapes (red and blue)

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5 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

Good point. Facing fore/aft and leaning sideways might not be so comfy or conducive to good power output.

Any bets that all B2's will have side-saddle grinders? LOL...

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8 minutes ago, Indio said:

Any bets that all B2's will have side-saddle grinders? LOL...

B2's will be full of ideas pinched from the B1's.

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5 minutes ago, Indio said:

Any bets that all B2's will have side-saddle grinders? LOL...

There could be some very busy designers at other teams tweaking a bit more of boat 2 than anticipated...

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3 hours ago, Nauti Buoy said:

Not a bit early to say? OTUSA first AC72 came out of the shed with fairings and smaller profile looked well ahead of the tractor if first looks are all you are considering. 

Turns out it was a flexzilla not designed to fully foil. Too early to tell.

If a Moth is anything to go by, sailing upright and heeled to windward is a VMG difference of about 4 knots.

Time will tell, given two of the best Moth sailors in the world are helmsman and perhaps flight controller on ETNZ, I’m very comfortable with what I’ve said...

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18 minutes ago, Indio said:

Any bets that all B2's will have side-saddle grinders? LOL...

Except ETNZ who will have gone to the next level of development by then. 

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11 minutes ago, Ex-yachtie said:

Except ETNZ who will have gone to the next level of development by then. 

Compared to American Magic, ETNZ already have a second generation boat...

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4 hours ago, Boybland said:

It can, but for it to reach a point of being as effective as the ETNZ one takes time, you can't just write a simulator and assume it will generate exactly the data you need, regardless of what your creating real effectiveness only comes after endless loops of feedback and refinement which is the point I was trying to make. 

People seem to think a team member could just walk out of ETNZ and create the same setup with relative ease, it simply isn't the case, the ETNZ system now has something like 10 years of feedback and improvements fed into it, sure you can make it functional and reasonably effective, but no amount of money will make up for development time. 

The team I would put as having pretty decent simulation this time around is INEOS, they will almost certainly have a lot of know how to work off from last time, the other question I guess is what happened to the IP out of Oracle once they decided not to compete, are they sitting on it or did it in some form get transferred to other teams? If you were a new team, it would give you a pretty decent leg up to have some of their information.

The team I would put as having pretty decent simulation this time around is INEOS, they will almost certainly have a lot of know how to work off from last time, the other question I guess is what happened to the IP out of Oracle once they decided not to compete, are they sitting on it or did it in some form get transferred to other teams? If you were a new team, it would give you a pretty decent leg up to have some of their information.

I dunno mate. But it seems like a reasonable concern and a fair question.

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53 minutes ago, Ex-yachtie said:

Except ETNZ who will have gone to the next level of development by then. 

as will everybody else 

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2 hours ago, NZL3481 said:

Compared to American Magic, ETNZ already have a second generation boat...

How so?

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12 minutes ago, Terry Hollis said:

Deck sweeping mainsail.

by the fact that us boat has similar center-line profile i would not discount that it is not already envisaged

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5 hours ago, NZL3481 said:

If a Moth is anything to go by, sailing upright and heeled to windward is a VMG difference of about 4 knots.

Time will tell, given two of the best Moth sailors in the world are helmsman and perhaps flight controller on ETNZ, I’m very comfortable with what I’ve said...

If we’re making quick judgments, NYYC looks like they have second gen foils assuming it’s similar to the August photo of the mule. 

Difference in performance there?

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Letting the cat out of the bag is the problem.

I think the AC75 will be  sailed like a moth, thanks @Nauti Buoy for giving the confidence to speak my mind.

I also think the grinders will stay on one side all the time particularly until lift off, but all the time.  That is because the sail can manage RM enough!  IMHO.

It is going to be the most interesting AC since Larry's big Tri which was so one sided but such a huge move forward.  Blow Ernesto out of the water !!

I am so sad ETNZ can't sail because of above and I wont get to see her !!!

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Looks like another day in the shed (or an incredible one on the water!)

Annotation 2019-09-13 061205.png

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10 hours ago, Indio said:

Any bets that all B2's will have side-saddle grinders? LOL...

Oh for fuck’s sake. It’s not as if DeVos doesn’t have a perfectly good way to test what the grinders would prefer....

 

C446E354-E3F3-47F6-B1D0-22996FA09344.jpeg

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15 hours ago, Forourselves said:

so predictable... thats why i said "arguably" you wanna argue about it? Fine, but i'm not gonna argue with someone who will find, anything, anything at all to find a conspiracy theory about, even when there's nothing there. Haters gonna hate...

You just toss around outlandish statements all the time.  Have the kiwi's been innovative?  Yes, but not the best, super duper of all time....  Just think before you speak.  And I have said repeatedly that I like the NZ effort, I am not a hater.  I just get tired of all the self-aggrandizing by some of the fans. 

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13 hours ago, rh3000 said:

Your daddy too. But you are right we are younger and not yet senile ;-)

Yup, it was just a humorous smack to someone who just spouts off on everything...lol

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14 hours ago, Boybland said:

It can, but for it to reach a point of being as effective as the ETNZ one takes time, you can't just write a simulator and assume it will generate exactly the data you need, regardless of what your creating real effectiveness only comes after endless loops of feedback and refinement which is the point I was trying to make. 

People seem to think a team member could just walk out of ETNZ and create the same setup with relative ease, it simply isn't the case, the ETNZ system now has something like 10 years of feedback and improvements fed into it, sure you can make it functional and reasonably effective, but no amount of money will make up for development time. 

The team I would put as having pretty decent simulation this time around is INEOS, they will almost certainly have a lot of know how to work off from last time, the other question I guess is what happened to the IP out of Oracle once they decided not to compete, are they sitting on it or did it in some form get transferred to other teams? If you were a new team, it would give you a pretty decent leg up to have some of their information.

True, it does take numerous hours of refining the data to make any model accurate. 

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15 hours ago, NZL3481 said:

ETNZ are already one step ahead of the Americans with boat 1...

As a grinder on everything from grand prix 50's to maxis including IACC boats for over 30 years I have to disagree  .  You can adjust yourself quite easily to a decent angle of lean and still  give maximum effort . Where you would have a problem is in the side to side configuration when the boat is healing and you are on the leeward side. Then you will be both holding your body in position to keep from falling away from the handles while at the same time providing power to drive them. Doable of course but as a noticeable advantage my experience says no. 

evo1.jpg

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7 hours ago, hairyharford said:

by the fact that us boat has similar center-line profile i would not discount that it is not already envisaged

I would assume that AM is using a more standard mast in order to simplify the rig for testing other portions of the boat.  As you say, the AM hull has a similar center slope to the NZ hull that could be fitted to a deck sweeping main sail.  That was the standard in the last couple of AC's and Sail GP and you can bet that AM will use it if they feel they need it for performance.

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18 minutes ago, Herfy said:

You just toss around outlandish statements all the time.  Have the kiwi's been innovative?  Yes, but not the best, super duper of all time....  Just think before you speak.  And I have said repeatedly that I like the NZ effort, I am not a hater.  I just get tired of all the self-aggrandizing by some of the fans. 

I see you have gone quiet on your "unsafe" BS, as well as your "They have a huge advantage and thats unfair" BS.

If you wanna talk about think before you speak, look in the mirror and say the same thing to yourself first.

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7 hours ago, hairyharford said:

by the fact that us boat has similar center-line profile i would not discount that it is not already envisaged

Sure it's already envisaged - since Te Aihe's launch and revelation, at least.

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20 minutes ago, maxmini said:

As a grinder on everything from grand prix 50's to maxis including IACC boats for over 30 years I have to disagree  .  You can adjust yourself quite easily to a decent angle of lean and still  give maximum effort . Where you would have a problem is in the side to side configuration when the boat is healing and you are on the leeward side. Then you will be both holding your body in position to keep from falling away from the handles while at the same time providing power to drive them. Doable of course but as a noticeable advantage my experience says no. 

evo1.jpg

Nice photo.

Is it the case that with north-south facing pedestals and grinders that one could get the CoG of the guys farther outboard for better RM? Maybe that’s no consideration if they aren’t switching sides.

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5 hours ago, Nauti Buoy said:

If we’re making quick judgments, NYYC looks like they have second gen foils assuming it’s similar to the August photo of the mule. 

Difference in performance there?

Don't make the mistake of thinking all, ETNZ's secret weapons have already been revealed in, Te Aihe.

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1 minute ago, Sailbydate said:

Don't make the mistake of thinking all, ETNZ's secret weapons have already been revealed in, Te Aihe.

Nor with AM

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