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Just now, Salty Seacock said:

If this is Te Aihe then she's foiling unwind.

20190922_144404.jpg

Wow, she does ride lower than AM

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200mm is good for an instamatic. Tiny jib. What wind speed are you experiencing?

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7 minutes ago, Varan said:

200mm is good for an instamatic. Tiny jib. What wind speed are you experiencing?

18 knots of wind. I'm in a very small boat for the choppy conditions.  It would take an hour to get over there.

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Sails are down. Something went wrong. There was a big splash a few minutes ago. 

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I'm a long way away.

20190922_152647.jpg

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Heading home.

20190922_154122.jpg

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15 minutes ago, Salty Seacock said:

Heading home.

20190922_154122.jpg

wow, foiling without the sails!

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10 minutes ago, Herfy said:

wow, foiling without the sails!

They're old technology borrowed from OTUSA. it's called cheating 

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18 minutes ago, Herfy said:

wow, foiling without the sails!

Its amazing. AM are basically calling it quits now, they know they cant win against that level of awesomeness, it's also why none of the other teams have bothered launching a boat.

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38 minutes ago, Salty Seacock said:

Heading home.

We drove up to Long Bay and watched them faff around for about half an hour before finally getting going.

Looked like they were going pretty quick, passed a group of moths headed in the same direction like they were standing still.

By the time we got back to town they'd pulled the sails down.

Only a shitty phone photo sorry.

5f45532bd4411cbdccfe3993a85d16c3.0.thumb.jpg.af7c2694578d34e95dedcd0708a8b9ad.jpg

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12 minutes ago, Ex-yachtie said:

Any reports of tacks and gybes?

We didn't see any.

At one point we thought maybe they were going to gybe off Tor Bay, but they just seemed to slow right down instead.

Next time we saw them they were still heading the same general direction as before.

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41 minutes ago, mogs said:

5f45532bd4411cbdccfe3993a85d16c3.0.thumb.jpg.af7c2694578d34e95dedcd0708a8b9ad.jpg

Thanks, good that they sailed with that wind. They look fast but the white trail is proportional to the drag. Where they fully foiling or "doing the dolphin" ?

 

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10 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Thanks, good that they sailed with that wind. They look fast but the white trail is proportional to the drag. Where they fully foiling or "doing the dolphin" ?

 

That looks like a fleet of spectators to me.

Kiwis are out watching sailing being redefined. 

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2 hours ago, Ex-yachtie said:

Any reports of tacks and gybes?

What I saw through the binoculars.

A fair bit of mucking about followed by some bursts of speed. They sailed from Torbay toward Milford at a reasonable pace. Couldn't tell if they were being towed but if they were then they are trying to foil unwind.

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1 hour ago, Ex-yachtie said:

That looks like a fleet of spectators to me.

There were a few support boats around, but at times when they were not in the way you could see wake from the foils only. So clearly foiling up wind at that point.

No obvious stability issues in a straight line that I saw. But yeah, didn't see any manoeuvres.

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at this point any team that helps another team by showing how to do things would be grossly stupid

 

atm i would expect teams to use the boat only to more accurately calibrate and check the simulator then only practise advanced manoeuvres on that .. until later in the game

these are not $5k moths racing for $100 prizes

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2 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

They look fast but the white trail is proportional to the drag. Where they fully foiling or "doing the dolphin" ?

The visible white trail in the photo is from a power boat.

At times we did get a clear view, with significantly cleaner wake from the foils back and bow clear of the water.

No porpoising at all that I saw, very stable.

Couldn't say for sure if they got up foiling unassisted or not, they were pretty far away when they started sailing.

There were a couple of power boats in a position that could have been towing them along at that time, but they'd have needed about 100m of rope if they were.

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3 hours ago, Herfy said:

wow, foiling without the sails!

They're the latest invisible sails

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13 minutes ago, Indio said:

They're the latest invisible sails

"You know I can't use your ghost sails Peter!"

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24 minutes ago, mogs said:

The visible white trail in the photo is from a power boat.

At times we did get a clear view, with significantly cleaner wake from the foils back and bow clear of the water.

No porpoising at all that I saw, very stable.

Couldn't say for sure if they got up foiling unassisted or not, they were pretty far away when they started sailing.

There were a couple of power boats in a position that could have been towing them along at that time, but they'd have needed about 100m of rope if they were.

I think they have a rope that long...

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27 minutes ago, phill_nz said:

at this point any team that helps another team by showing how to do things would be grossly stupid

 

atm i would expect teams to use the boat only to more accurately calibrate and check the simulator then only practise advanced manoeuvres on that .. until later in the game

these are not $5k moths racing for $100 prizes

Fair point. Remember that ETNZ distributed a video of themselves doing a foiling tack last time. And they’re THE team that hasn’t had a test boat. They’ll be itching to test themselves. GA’s steady hand may well be on the end of an arm getting slowly twisted. 

 

AM weren’t shy about carving a gybe out on day 1/2. 

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48 minutes ago, meanermachine said:

Yeah but AM gybed and stopped, as far as I saw from the video anyway.

Still more impressive than getting towed out, then (maybe?) sailing for a bit in a straight line, stopping and heading straight back home...

Seriously though, as a neutral observer, ETNZ's outings to date seem pretty weird...

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4 minutes ago, alphafb552 said:

Still more impressive than getting towed out, then (maybe?) sailing for a bit in a straight line, stopping and heading straight back home...

Seriously though, as a neutral observer, ETNZ's outings to date seem pretty weird...

You're not wrong. Towing the boat all the way to Long Bay today is strange. They cannot hide from the spies so what are they doing?

The other outings where so short or strange that they look like a first team out rather than 25 year veterans. Is it strategic or failure?

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I do agree the ETNZ outings look odd, but I'm inclined to put them down to systems tests.

We've never seen boats like this before so probably there are tests we've never seen before

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33 minutes ago, meanermachine said:

I do agree the ETNZ outings look odd, but I'm inclined to put them down to systems tests.

We've never seen boats like this before so probably there are tests we've never seen before

ETNZ by their own admission have said they’ve designed a very difficult-to-sail boat. If you put their outings in that context, it does make things a bit more palatable...

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Everyone should be aiming to peak during the AC final. Who gives's a shit which team is #1 now.

ETNZ peaked too early in AC34. They got it about right in Bermuda.Lets just wait and see what happens this time,

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3 hours ago, Salty Seacock said:

You're not wrong. Towing the boat all the way to Long Bay today is strange. They cannot hide from the spies so what are they doing?

The other outings where so short or strange that they look like a first team out rather than 25 year veterans. Is it strategic or failure?

I would put it as cautious.  Remember that the design of these AC75’s are unstable and it took a long time before the test boats were doing any maneuvers.  NZ has spent a lot of time on their simulator, but it will take a while for them to build up the “on the water experience” to be able to recover if they get in trouble.

 AM has months of on the water experience with the Mule and knows what will put a boat on her side and how to prevent it.  Plus the AM hull is flatter and more stable if it drops down off the foils.  NZ basically built a V shaped bottom hull for some performance advantages, but it makes it less stable when it drops off the foils.  We have to remember that these boats have movable keels that are adjusted based upon where it is needed.  That need changes dramatically from foiling at high speed and stopped dead in the water.

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Videos and photos from closer distance could tell us more. The wind was good yesterday and conditions perfect, the team should provide us with some promotional videos better than the first one. Let's see if they release something and what.

 

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Eh they’re dragging it back on foils. That’s just opportunity for data collection and testing how the system responds to diff currents and sea states. 

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19 minutes ago, Miffy said:

Eh they’re dragging it back on foils. That’s just opportunity for data collection and testing how the system responds to diff currents and sea states. 

You don't know, it could as well be because they capsized or broke something.

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On 9/20/2019 at 4:29 AM, Priscilla said:

Just another bucking bronco mono wishing it was one of these.

 

Video brought a tear to my eye. What a ridiculous machine.

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1 hour ago, Herfy said:

I would put it as cautious.  Remember that the design of these AC75’s are unstable and it took a long time before the test boats were doing any maneuvers.  NZ has spent a lot of time on their simulator, but it will take a while for them to build up the “on the water experience” to be able to recover if they get in trouble.

Precisely.

The problem with relying on simulator training is that the simulator cannot provide all the tactile and audible feedbacks from your as-yet-unbuilt open cockpit flying machine. It is quite possible that somebody heard or felt something unanticipated, thought "what's that?" and aborted the test to find out. I would expect more such incidents from a project team that would rather not break their only toy.

Cheers,

Earl

 

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Isn't the whole purpose of a simulator to be able to get in and go from day 1 once you get your hands on the real thing?

If they are getting unexpected data from the Dolphin, their whole simulator program is basically toast..

 

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6 minutes ago, alphafb552 said:

Isn't the whole purpose of a simulator to be able to get in and go from day 1 once you get your hands on the real thing?

If they are getting unexpected data from the Dolphin, their whole simulator program is basically toast..

 

Not how simulators work in aviation or other performance sports. You still slap on flow vis and take the car for a drive to validate the data or take the aircraft with more test sensors. 
 

validation is just as important 

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12 minutes ago, alphafb552 said:

If they are getting unexpected data from the Dolphin, their whole simulator program is basically toast..

Not data, cues. Not quite the same thing. All simulators present an inherently incomplete model of the real world. 

Cheers,

Earl

 

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So basically now they're spending time and resources trying to correlate data, sorry, cues between the simulator and the boat, instead of being out on the water actually learning to sail the beast...

If they can crack that in the next few weeks they should be fine.

I recall however an F1 team (Sauber?) taking an entire year to understand why their windtunnel tests didn't match their on track performance - dangerous rabbit hole to fall into...

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There’s been a ton of high profile aero correlation issues of late. Williams and McLaren all of last year. Ferrari mid season last year to this season. 
 

you go down a design path that you think works. Results look good in wind tunnel. Then you find out at the first day of testing something was not simulated to match reality and have to modify the tunnel data processing to understand why. 

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5 minutes ago, alphafb552 said:

So basically now they're spending time and resources trying to correlate data, sorry, cues between the simulator and the boat, instead of being out on the water actually learning to sail the beast...

Well, first, I don't think either of us are privy to their test plan so anything either of us says is almost certainly pure speculation.

Second, the difference between data and cues is that data is something that you measure to compare with your model and cues are inputs to the crew that are outside the model. Airspeed and angle of attack are data; the sounds the rigging makes under strain are (most probably) cues.

Cheers,

Earl

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4 hours ago, Herfy said:

I would put it as cautious.  Remember that the design of these AC75’s are unstable and it took a long time before the test boats were doing any maneuvers.  NZ has spent a lot of time on their simulator, but it will take a while for them to build up the “on the water experience” to be able to recover if they get in trouble.

 AM has months of on the water experience with the Mule and knows what will put a boat on her side and how to prevent it.  Plus the AM hull is flatter and more stable if it drops down off the foils.  NZ basically built a V shaped bottom hull for some performance advantages, but it makes it less stable when it drops off the foils.  We have to remember that these boats have movable keels that are adjusted based upon where it is needed.  That need changes dramatically from foiling at high speed and stopped dead in the water.

To date no person here has explained what the slots were in the bottom of the hull that were pictured at the launch. These may well be daggerboards that flick down in a "fall off the foils moment". Very Thunderbirds indeed.

Not allowable in the rule, but then again these boats dont get measured until just before they race. 

We want results dammit. We want foiling tacks, gybes and we want closeup HDR footage of it. We want it now and we want it to show "our" team is better than any other.

Hurry up or we'll start flying Air New Zealand. 

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15 minutes ago, Salty Seacock said:

To date no person here has explained what the slots were in the bottom of the hull that were pictured at the launch. These may well be daggerboards that flick down in a "fall off the foils moment". Very Thunderbirds indeed.

Not allowable in the rule, but then again these boats dont get measured until just before they race. 

We want results dammit. We want foiling tacks, gybes and we want closeup HDR footage of it. We want it now and we want it to show "our" team is better than any other.

Hurry up or we'll start flying Air New Zealand. 

I haven’t seen those slots since the first few posts here.  I suspect they were duct tape, which would be highly traditional and way less Thunderbirds.

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Just now, Ex-yachtie said:

I haven’t seen those slots since the first few posts here.  I suspect they were duct tape, which would be highly traditional and way less Thunderbirds.

They were not duct tape. Believe that they are slots about 800mm x 80mm.

 

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15 minutes ago, Salty Seacock said:

They were not duct tape. Believe that they are slots about 800mm x 80mm.

 

About the width of duct tape. 

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17 minutes ago, Ex-yachtie said:

About the width of duct tape. 

Clearly you're an ex-Oyster yachtie and have never touched the sticky stuff. Duct tape is normally 50mm or 2" wide. 

If you're measuring this wrong then I bet there's some disappointed ladies out there, (Or men. I do not judge).

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46 minutes ago, Salty Seacock said:

If you're measuring this wrong then I bet there's some disappointed ladies out there, (Or men. I do not judge).

One TVNZ report I saw said the boat was 75m long.

Maybe ETNZ are only just now realising their boat is supposed to be 3 times the size!

#stonehenge

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This is comical to watch...   just because they are not spinning around on foils on a short course in front of their base doesn’t mean their simulator was wrong.  The simulator helps them test ideas and gets the crew prepared for sailing the boat.  

For example, look at how many simulator trained crews flopped around on the F50’s.  The crews with real on the water training were very far ahead of the new simulator trained crews.  Given all the data and years of development, I would suspect that the F50 simulator is closer to real life than the NZ simulator is on a “never been sailed” AC75 class.

I suspect that team NZ is on track and very excited about the progress they have made.  I would also suspect that NZ will be the last team to perfect their foiling maneuvers, if they threw the ball as far as many of you think. 

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2 hours ago, Ex-yachtie said:

I haven’t seen those slots since the first few posts here.  I suspect they were duct tape, which would be highly traditional and way less Thunderbirds.

Have we seen any new close-up shots of the hull since the launch event? I think the absence of any new pics is more to do with the absence of anyone being able to see that angle :-)

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1 hour ago, Herfy said:

This is comical to watch...   just because they are not spinning around on foils on a short course in front of their base doesn’t mean their simulator was wrong.  The simulator helps them test ideas and gets the crew prepared for sailing the boat.  

For example, look at how many simulator trained crews flopped around on the F50’s.  The crews with real on the water training were very far ahead of the new simulator trained crews.  Given all the data and years of development, I would suspect that the F50 simulator is closer to real life than the NZ simulator is on a “never been sailed” AC75 class.

I suspect that team NZ is on track and very excited about the progress they have made.  I would also suspect that NZ will be the last team to perfect their foiling maneuvers, if they threw the ball as far as many of you think. 

Yes. ETNZ seemed to do OK last go around. No reason to think that they won't figure it out time, either.

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For a little country we punch above our weight.
It is great to have a challenge like this - we love it!  

GO ETNZ

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How much benefit do they get from towing on the foils? When towed the force vector on the boat is purely fore and aft, whereas when using the sails you have a strong sideways vector as well?

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3 minutes ago, kiwispirits said:

How much benefit do they get from towing on the foils? When towed the force vector on the boat is purely fore and aft, whereas when using the sails you have a strong sideways vector as well?

Plus under sail they are only on two foils, the rudder and leward side, not 3 like under tow. It's a totally different mode.

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how much benefit do they get from towing on the foils

 

not much

but what can they learn

they can confirm all the different drag forces on every angle as a tack / gybe takes place

hence the speeds / sail and demand power needed / going in / through / coming out

then adjust the calibration on the sim and perfect the manoeuvre before trying it irl

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15 minutes ago, kiwispirits said:

How much benefit do they get from towing on the foils? When towed the force vector on the boat is purely fore and aft, whereas when using the sails you have a strong sideways vector as well?

Seems like they could get data and compare to models, and also get some experience/confidence in their height adjustment tools/skills. Maybe verify predicted amount of deflection of the foils under various stresses.

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this is all hot air assumptions

without knowing what the testing plan and process TNZ has for their boat on a day to day basis we will have no idea if they are ahead or behind on their path to the start line.

there must be dozens of systems they they need to check off prior turning the wheel at 54.7knots and going in another direction. if i was a crew member I would appreciate everything working . I'm quite sure the "she'll be right" attitude wouldn't work with these boats

everyone just take a breath and prepare to say "wow" when they gybe/tack for the first time on video

 

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i would love to see that today

i dont want to see that till the day of the first challenge final

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49 minutes ago, kiwispirits said:

How much benefit do they get from towing on the foils? When towed the force vector on the boat is purely fore and aft, whereas when using the sails you have a strong sideways vector as well?

Also I get the sense that most of the time now the towing is just to get to where they actually wanna go; the boats are not designed to move at towed speed with both foils down in the 'docking' mode so make sense to make use of them in the 'both down' mode. 

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53 minutes ago, kiwispirits said:

How much benefit do they get from towing on the foils? When towed the force vector on the boat is purely fore and aft, whereas when using the sails you have a strong sideways vector as well?

The tow boats benefit greatly.

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40 minutes ago, nroose said:

Seems like they could get data and compare to models, and also get some experience/confidence in their height adjustment tools/skills. Maybe verify predicted amount of deflection of the foils under various stresses.

Perhaps, but if it had been the case they would have gone out on tow without sail.

Why did they go out, sailed in 18 kts of wind (as read here) and came back towed, apparently without the sail on the boat, taking the risk to damage it while transferring it on a tow boat ?

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3 hours ago, rh3000 said:

Have we seen any new close-up shots of the hull since the launch event? I think the absence of any new pics is more to do with the absence of anyone being able to see that angle :-)

Maybe the duct tape washed off?

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Geez. I saw them getting towed out yesterday as I came back from a quick fish. 
 

They towed out to an area with clear water and clean air. Unsurprisingly they towed back again. It is clearly quite easy to tow unlike the cats with the wing masts which they did sail out and back but I suspect they were effectively untowable 

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2 hours ago, Forourselves said:

Looks like Te Aihe is out again today.

Te  Aihe and tenders off the dock just after noon today. WX looks a bit fresher than past couple of days.

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1 hour ago, phill_nz said:

how much benefit do they get from towing on the foils

 

not much

but what can they learn

they can confirm all the different drag forces on every angle as a tack / gybe takes place

hence the speeds / sail and demand power needed / going in / through / coming out

then adjust the calibration on the sim and perfect the manoeuvre before trying it irl

 

Towing poynt rong hite for this.

shood be at CoE

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better .. but doesn't mean the info is completely invalid

 

not to mention that the coe is constantly changing and a highly impractical point to choose for towing

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They have a protocol and it makes no sense second guessing what they need to do before they can fully sail the boat.  It sure is fun though.....

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45 minutes ago, Ex-yachtie said:

Maybe the duct tape washed off?

Prolly that cheap stuff from Bunnings. 

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41 minutes ago, Salty Seacock said:

Prolly that cheap stuff from Bunnings. 

Prolly 50mm wide.

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21 minutes ago, Ex-yachtie said:

Prolly 50mm wide.

Prolly good for sticking 470 sails together only. No good for the bum of a supercavatator. (Potatoe)

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2 hours ago, Dutyfreenz said:

Geez. I saw them getting towed out yesterday as I came back from a quick fish. 
 

They towed out to an area with clear water and clean air. Unsurprisingly they towed back again. It is clearly quite easy to tow unlike the cats with the wing masts which they did sail out and back but I suspect they were effectively untowable 

they haven't returned to base on the web cam. at 230

 

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3 minutes ago, crux said:

No reports No photos No video Anybody out there?

 

Yes come on Aucklanders makes for a long boring day at work with nothing to see.

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17 minutes ago, minimumfuss said:

Yes come on Aucklanders makes for a long boring day at work with nothing to see.

No storm chasing for me today, had to go to work.

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almost like waiting for the results of a bombing raid

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Wow, the webcam does NOT do justice ...

Watched them tow out then later caught up with them at Browns Bay where they were stopped and drifted for about 40 mins.

Then they took off about 2.30 and blasted down the Channel all the way to what looked like Eastern Beach, spray in all directions, weaving and looking to be having a ball. Stopped, so I came back down to Narrow Neck, by which time they were back up Mairangi Bay way.

Then they folied across to Long Bay, then came back down the Channel - that was the run caught on the webcam above. A more sedate run but still impressive. They foiled around North Head I think (lost sight of them) and stopped inside the harbour. 

Photos to come.

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4 minutes ago, weta27 said:

Wow, the webcam does NOT do justice ...

Watched them tow out then later caught up with them at Browns Bay where they were stopped and drifted for about 40 mins.

Then they took off about 2.30 and blasted down the Channel all the way to what looked like Eastern Beach, spray in all directions, weaving and looking to be having a ball. Stopped, so I came back down to Narrow Neck, by which time they were back up Mairangi Bay way.

Then they folied across to Long Bay, then came back down the Channel - that was the run caught on the webcam above. A more sedate run but still impressive. They foiled around North Head I think (lost sight of them) and stopped inside the harbour. 

Photos to come.

Good work, mate.  Can't wait to see pix.

Web cam shot may have been "more sedate" but she was on foils and not making much fuss.  Chase boats OTOH were pushing fairly hard by the looks of it.

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yehhh ... about that splash ..

whats the story

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14 minutes ago, weta27 said:

A few from the tow out and the first run that I saw.

Looks and sounds like they gave it a good nudge today!

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That splash ... they just carried on ... there were a few splashes, altho that was the biggest that I saw.

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2 minutes ago, weta27 said:

Pics from the second run after I've cooked dinner :-)

We'll get uber eats to deliver if that makes the uploads faster!

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sandwich and an apple .. get to it

 

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