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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  

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What a difference a week makes. No shooting from the hip, and gone from the NZ press, thank fuck.

Surprisingly, 'the Press' has not even reported RC's offer of a 2nd boat to the challengers. I guess they have politicians to hang out to dry.

 

http://www.sail-world.com/NZ/Americas-Cup:-Coutts-repeats-offer-of-second-AC62-for-Challengers/123480

Maybe that's because it is widely disputed. I spoke to two top people at two teams and neither had received such an offer.

Apparently those top people are so busy they haven't heard of the internet or Facebook :)

 

They should have called Leweck , hell even he knew about it .

 

Grumpy acknowledged he hadn't had any discussions with OTUSA since late last year, and it's not clear they were in close communication with IM either, so maybe he opted to handle that issue himself, but we can still blame OTUSA for something can't we ?

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What a difference a week makes. No shooting from the hip, and gone from the NZ press, thank fuck.

 

Surprisingly, 'the Press' has not even reported RC's offer of a 2nd boat to the challengers. I guess they have politicians to hang out to dry.

http://www.sail-world.com/NZ/Americas-Cup:-Coutts-repeats-offer-of-second-AC62-for-Challengers/123480

Maybe that's because it is widely disputed. I spoke to two top people at two teams and neither had received such an offer.

Apparently those top people are so busy they haven't heard of the internet or Facebook :)

They should have called Leweck , hell even he knew about it .

Grumpy acknowledged he hadn't had any discussions with OTUSA since late last year, and it's not clear they were in close communication with IM either, so maybe he opted to handle that issue himself, but we can still blame OTUSA for something can't we ?

Which I do find rather strange and here is why.

 

NZ in the past few months has burned through apparently $ 5, 000,000 in what has to be mostly salary as they haven't built anything as far as I know . You would think one of those rather well paid employes could take a moment now and then to give a call over to their representative in the event and say , what's up ?

 

I never really saw GD as a sit in your ass kind of guy and wait till he was told what he was doing but who knows ?

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Might be difficult to cross a bridge that's been burned, but since grumpy constantly complained for 3 years about costs maybe IM already feels he has his input.

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As I understand it , Grumpy collected one salary as Grand Poobah and additional monies as a most excellent part time grinder.

 

Nice.

 

No wonder he got pissed when it was suggested he give up the grinders position.

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Yachting: Team NZ in troubled waters

The syndicate's Black Friday press conference was a public relations disaster. Its intention was to get the message out that the rules set by the defender for the next Cup were not that bad and so buoy public support. Two boats to one, for example, wasn't the obstacle it might have seemed as the challengers could buddy up to test their boats on the water.

 

Talking money hadn't been the plan at all but Dalton did talk money, claiming that the syndicate was in the best shape ever, financially, in the long-term, though it was on the edge of going broke and needed the public's help.

 

Economic Development Minister Steven Joyce described Dalton's comments as "unhelpful", while some commentators reacted by portraying Team NZ as living large on taxpayers' money. It was reported that Dalton and skipper Dean Barker "are sitting on a property empire worth about $14 million on 2011 valuations".

 

Campbell Live was invited to glad-hand staff, including designers at work on plans for the smaller multihulls that will be raced in 2017, and a software expert who chose Team NZ over a job with Google.

 

The syndicate then battened down the hatches. Dalton wasn't available for interview for this article. "We just feel quite battered and bruised," a spokesman said. "Time to call a halt rather than pour more fuel on it."

 

However, board chairman Dr Keith Turner agreed to be interviewed yesterday [Q&A below]. His message is not to lose sight of what was achieved last time with Kiwi ingenuity and less than half the budget of Oracle (??), which came from the dead to win 9-8.

 

 

 

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11278448

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Yachting: Team NZ in troubled waters

The syndicate's Black Friday press conference was a public relations disaster. Its intention was to get the message out that the rules set by the defender for the next Cup were not that bad and so buoy public support. Two boats to one, for example, wasn't the obstacle it might have seemed as the challengers could buddy up to test their boats on the water.

 

Talking money hadn't been the plan at all but Dalton did talk money, claiming that the syndicate was in the best shape ever, financially, in the long-term, though it was on the edge of going broke and needed the public's help.

 

Economic Development Minister Steven Joyce described Dalton's comments as "unhelpful", while some commentators reacted by portraying Team NZ as living large on taxpayers' money. It was reported that Dalton and skipper Dean Barker "are sitting on a property empire worth about $14 million on 2011 valuations".

 

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11278448

 

 

Well you really cant hold that against them as $ 14 ,000,000 really doesn't go as far as it used to .

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^ from there,

--

Even releasing salary bands would be giving too much away. "If they had information on salaries, boats, maintenance ... it would hand a huge advantage to rivals, especially to teams starting up," Dr Turner said.

--

I disagree the reason given but understand a business's salaries being kept private for other reasons. It's not like ~all~ of it is tax money. Their budget was actually about a third govt, a third comm, a third Billionaire, by a GD account last year.

 

The simplest PR solution for TNZ is to allocate, to say, and to do it in such a way or pretend to, so that the more-garish salaries are allocated from a different pot. One funded by Billionaires Matteo or Fay, or from the commercial tin. Assign the govt monies to the bailing wire and builder industry services purchased.

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You were right, SR: my next struggle is going to be about non-surrogate yachts - and it'll be an uphill fight ..

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You were right, SR: my next struggle is going to be about non-surrogate yachts - and it'll be an uphill fight ..

You're right about that too :D

 

 

The correct use of 'non-surrogate' is just too confusing for normal-peoples' consumption. Perhaps 'substitute' should be used but it likely won't. 'Surrogate' is one of the quirky terms that make this game so interesting.

 

It's mildly interesting that AUS has two 45's now; it may suggest a Frankenstein future for one of them.

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Ba humbug - May this all be seen in context of what the other teams in are shelling out? Buried in the article is the line that Coutts is reputedly earning 4 times more than Dalton. Bottom line is that the NZ taxpayer has had a very decent return on its entire investment - and an America's Cup without a successfully funded ETNZ - if that is the aim of trolls with thousands of one-track posts (and nothing better to do) and of some of the landlubber press - will mean sailing and the event will be the poorer for it.

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He came across as honest and realistic and was dealt some very pointed questions he could have run with had he wanted, but chose not to. Kiwis should feel fortunate they have options with his track record and success in the AC. Politics is the achilles heel of that organization and has been.

 

Not sure you can teach the grumpy old dog new tricks, even if it appears he is going thru the motions. A $2M salary if he stays, opens up a hot dog stand on the beach if he leaves. Maybe time to start selling wieners if he doesn't come up with some backing.

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Ok, I think there are a few issues here, after listening to Stephen Tindall's interview replying to Brad Butterworth, Stephen Talks about 2003, he also talks Brad not being able to raise money like Dalts. Now, I agree Dalts is probably the greatest fundraiser in the history of the AC. But there is also 1 fundamental mistake that the board made, and thats holding grudges. Now, Stephen talks about Brad only winning on the boat and not being able to work commercially. Stephen Tindall says: "Its not just about the team winning on the boat" For Team New Zealand it's about just that. New Zealand can not and will not handle or accept another loss. It doesn't matter how much return on the investment they get. The problem is Grant Dalton and Brad Butterworth can not and will not work together because of 2003. If the board made the call to make changes, accept the offer from Butterworth and give them both the ultimatum to work together or leave, then you will see who is really committed to Emirates Team New Zealand winning the cup. You've got a guy who has the ability to raise money but hasn't won, and another who's a multiple time winner who apparently can't raise money, but neither can work together for the greater good. Agenda's are being put before the goal of winning.

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http://www.radiosport.co.nz/audio/458299760-sir-stephen-tindall--team-new-zealand

 

 

BB rejected for the following reasons

1. No commercial skills, a good sailor but not had to raise the dough

2. No commercial plan submitted

3. Tindall and Co had a handshake agreement with RC and BB in 2000, - and yet they walked (a'holes)

4. Only wanted the CEO job - did not want a sailing job

5. Board 100% behind GD

6. The truth about how TNZ lost campaign will be disclosed in the next few months

 

 

Really good interview. Suggest all listen

 

Background: Tindall is a knight (sir) and earnt that through his establishing "The Warehouse" (NZ equivalent of Walmart) and then his support of NZ small businesses and other social things. A really good guy - 100% kiwi and willing to put his money where his heart is. Absolute integrity.

 

If BB and RC shook his hand in 2000 and then reneged he would be very wary of them.

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According to Vietch it will get he green light on Tuesday

Right, a green light from the Board to ETNZ. That's the big takeaway, and hopefully that's true.

 

BB was by far more interesting in a big -perspective way than the troll hook-trawling Veitchy in this interview, and yet some of what BB did say was still classic gold BB.

 

It's at least a credit to Veitchy that he got that interview; and that ETNZ continues to be a big topic of controversy and conversation in part because of him.

 

'Black Friday' above was good too, as a description of the unanticipated wake left behind GD's well-intentioned presser. It turned to custard even more sour than he'd set out to sweeten but with the attention - regardless the arguments? Who knows, it may be better than being just ignored.

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More to come in an hour as it is the main topic on the 1800 news (well the fact that Dalts is making $2mill a year) tonight. That figure is about fair and l know helmsmen who were close to that in previous Cups. Problem in NZ is that it comes back to the Govt funding an your average man in the street will never understand. I would imagine Dalts will keep his mouth shut for quite some time now and that the new Board will be looking at the last few weeks and employing a PR person. Let Dalt's do what he does best, get money and let BB do what he does best, run the sailing side

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More to come in an hour as it is the main topic on the 1800 news (well the fact that Dalts is making $2mill a year) tonight. That figure is about fair and l know helmsmen who were close to that in previous Cups. Problem in NZ is that it comes back to the Govt funding an your average man in the street will never understand. I would imagine Dalts will keep his mouth shut for quite some time now and that the new Board will be looking at the last few weeks and employing a PR person. Let Dalt's do what he does best, get money and let BB do what he does best, run the sailing side

If BB is so fucking hot, let him mount his own challenge. He can manage it and fund it as well. Yeah right.

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Veitch continues discussing ETNZ. In this segment he replays the salient points from his interview with Stephen Tindall, and then asks two fellow journalists their opinions. I think they sum up the general public feeling in NZ really well (note that one of them makes mention of the "world cup" - he means the RUGBY world cup). Cheers, Drac.

 

http://content.radionetwork.co.nz/weekondemand/radiosport/71415.mp3

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Lead item ahead of the PM and Obama. Positive response from the public who were interviewed. Shoebridge saying the amounts paid are a lot less than what they could make overseas. Begs the question I guess, who would employ Dalton and Barker? Thankfully the last two week debacle will now die a natural death and life moves on

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The funding from Govt is in the form of a sponsorship from Trade and Enterprise. It is not a handout, and not from the sports budget.

 

It is used to promote NZ trade and investment especially the marine industry and the high tech industry (remember it was held in San Fran which is important for the high tech industry - Silicon valley

 

Also Tindall points out that Govt put in $36m but got $38m back in taxes - all this and the trade promotion

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Barney would that include the taxation etc that Ellison pumped into Core building Oracle gear? You can manipulate numbers to make them mean whatever the agenda is. So a nice touch that the new buzz word is the Govt "investment" had a $2 mill ROI. On that basis why did Fitzroy fold and Alloy without ongoing work?

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It is not a "Govt investment". If the AC was an "investment" any funders should be shot.

 

The people who benefit from the AC do so through profile (just like NZ - and hence the NZTE sponsorship)

 

Think Bond, Fay, Packer.... These guys made money after AC through their exposure as being movers and shakers.

 

LE and EB already had a big kitty and like to spend on toys (and RC!)

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Didn't really answer the question. After listening to the second Vietch broadcast (above) my big question would be what can ETNZ do better than the other teams that now appear to be in much better shape management/funding wise? (BAR and Artemis). As a betting man I would say that even with the funding and the current sailing team (including Tuke/Burling etc) I would say the odds to win will never be like the last round, it just got a whole lot more difficult to win. On that note the TAB is paying $2.80 for the AB's to win by less than 13 and $1.90 for 13 and above. Just shows that most betting people bet with their heart rather than the head! Enjoy the game!

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"Oh we need $5,000,000 from the NZ Tax Payer right now or we are gone by the end of the month"

 

NZ Herald Saturday June 21st: "Team NZ chief's $2-million salary

Team NZ boss Grant Dalton was on about $2 million a year during the last America's Cup campaign."

 

It's lovely if you can get it even when your a multi time loser!!!!!!!!

 

What an "Investment" for New Zealand, "The Grant Dalton Retirement Fund"

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http://www.radiosport.co.nz/audio/458299760-sir-stephen-tindall--team-new-zealand

 

 

BB rejected for the following reasons

1. No commercial skills, a good sailor but not had to raise the dough

2. No commercial plan submitted

3. Tindall and Co had a handshake agreement with RC and BB in 2000, - and yet they walked (a'holes)

4. Only wanted the CEO job - did not want a sailing job

5. Board 100% behind GD

6. The truth about how TNZ lost campaign will be disclosed in the next few months

 

 

Really good interview. Suggest all listen

 

Background: Tindall is a knight (sir) and earnt that through his establishing "The Warehouse" (NZ equivalent of Walmart) and then his support of NZ small businesses and other social things. A really good guy - 100% kiwi and willing to put his money where his heart is. Absolute integrity.

 

If BB and RC shook his hand in 2000 and then reneged he would be very wary of them.

 

Your understanding of what happened in 2000 is incomplete and naive.

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Look Butterballs burned his bridges but I don't see how GD and DB get ETNZ over the top.

 

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different results.

 

ETNZ had the smoking gun, foiling, they let the cat out of the bag too early but that could be overcame but they stopped the development while OR kept ramping up.

 

For ETNZ to win the Cup with an aging and quite frankly over the hill team would be a miracle.

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http://www.radiosport.co.nz/audio/458299760-sir-stephen-tindall--team-new-zealand

 

 

BB rejected for the following reasons

1. No commercial skills, a good sailor but not had to raise the dough

2. No commercial plan submitted

3. Tindall and Co had a handshake agreement with RC and BB in 2000, - and yet they walked (a'holes)

4. Only wanted the CEO job - did not want a sailing job

5. Board 100% behind GD

6. The truth about how TNZ lost campaign will be disclosed in the next few months

 

 

Really good interview. Suggest all listen

 

Background: Tindall is a knight (sir) and earnt that through his establishing "The Warehouse" (NZ equivalent of Walmart) and then his support of NZ small businesses and other social things. A really good guy - 100% kiwi and willing to put his money where his heart is. Absolute integrity.

 

If BB and RC shook his hand in 2000 and then reneged he would be very wary of them.

 

Your understanding of what happened in 2000 is incomplete and naive.

Thank you for your kind and diplomatic response.

 

However it is not my understanding - it is Tindall's. And he was the one who wrote out a cheque for $4m in 2000. He is not the type of guy who makes things up.

 

If you know better - please explain.

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Look Butterballs burned his bridges but I don't see how GD and DB get ETNZ over the top.

 

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different results.

 

ETNZ had the smoking gun, foiling, they let the cat out of the bag too early but that could be overcame but they stopped the development while OR kept ramping up.

 

For ETNZ to win the Cup with an aging and quite frankly over the hill team would be a miracle.

I think you need to keep up.

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I find this almost off topic, but it continues the 'paid too much' vendetta from yesterday:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11279103

Well...this is the sort of shit we get here in NZL media all the time. The 'politics of envy'. Hell bells, we even have an 'envy tax' disguised as a "Fringe Benefit Tax".

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And then there is this about Grumpy getting $2 million, looks like, per year.

 

In his defense, as the guy raising the money, this is actually sort of like a commission payment, and not out of line with industry standards.

 

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11278576

 

 

 

It becomes out of line when you start asking for funds shouldered by the taxpayers. One way or the other Grumps-- or God and Country, or for yourself. Pfft.

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As I understand it , Grumpy collected one salary as Grand Poobah and additional monies as a most excellent part time grinder.

 

Nice.

 

No wonder he got pissed when it was suggested he give up the grinders position.

 

He is welcome to sail on my boat. We can make it an interview about real sailing instead of points for social media discussion.

 

Koukel

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I find this almost off topic, but it continues the 'paid too much' vendetta from yesterday:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11279103

My guess is that GD has plenty of wealth and that $2M/yr is nice enough to keep him compensated but he could as easily just turn and leave it and still live well. Almost did leave, late last year.

 

Obviously his salary is a topic of conversation if it's taxpayer funded but this excerpt goes toward countering that subject:

--

Yesterday, Team New Zealand director Sir Stephen Tindall defended Dalton and the funding request.

 

He said the Government put $36m into the last campaign but it got $38m back in taxes - making $2m.

 

"The money that is being paid to our sailors is being paid basically by people like me, private funders, and our large sponsors," he told Tony Veitch on Newstalk ZB.

 

"Grant Dalton raised an enormous amount of money last time for the team. We would not have been able to make it without him."

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GD worked 10 years for a Multi national cigarette company where he earnt a full international package which set him up nicely.

 

The opponents of this $2m package just do not understand that this package is very light compared to the other teams. There are sailors on other teams who earnt much more than this.

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Will the infusion of cash help rectify this situation ?

 

Hopefully so.

 

A Northland-based former grinder on cash-strapped Team New Zealand said it was a shame crew numbers and their salaries were being slashed by Grant Dalton and his team - all in the name of cost-cutting.

 

Chris McAsey of Whangarei was among 11 crew members at the helm of Team NZ during the America's Cup race in San Francisco last August but, since then, three including him have lost their jobs.

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Chris McAsey of Whangarei was among 11 crew members at the helm of Team NZ during the America's Cup race in San Francisco last August but, since then, three including him have lost their jobs.

 

Ah, that was their mistake, having 11 guys on the helm!

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BB is not a man of his word.

 

Tindall has seen this first hand.

 

Tindall would never hire him

 

Tindall writes out cheques so he has the major say.

 

BB never had any hope of being part of TNZ again.

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BB is not a man of his word.

 

Tindall has seen this first hand.

 

Tindall would never hire him

 

Tindall writes out cheques so he has the major say.

 

BB never had any hope of being part of TNZ again.

 

Very sound and impeccable reasoning Barny. What's more, Dalts has a proven track record of zero America's Cup wins. Team NZ would be utterly nuts to replace him with Butterworth who's racked up 4 America's Cup wins. Come on Team NZ, stick with Dalts, keep that losing streak going.

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BB is not a man of his word.

 

Tindall has seen this first hand.

 

Tindall would never hire him

 

Tindall writes out cheques so he has the major say.

 

BB never had any hope of being part of TNZ again.

 

Very sound and impeccable reasoning Barny. What's more, Dalts has a proven track record of zero America's Cup wins. Team NZ would be utterly nuts to replace him with Butterworth who's racked up 4 America's Cup wins. Come on Team NZ, stick with Dalts, keep that losing streak going.

 

You are dreaming if you think that Butterworth's achievements can compare in the smallest way to Daltons .. Other people provided the funds .. other people managed the design .. Butterworth was one person on a fast mono hull that other people provided ..

 

Dalton raised the funds the hard way (no one else has ever been as successful as Dalton's fund raising for the AC) he employed the right people to design a multi hull and came within a whisker of defeating OR who had a considerable head start over all challengers .

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BB is not a man of his word.

 

Tindall has seen this first hand.

 

Tindall would never hire him

 

Tindall writes out cheques so he has the major say.

 

BB never had any hope of being part of TNZ again.

Very sound and impeccable reasoning Barny. What's more, Dalts has a proven track record of zero America's Cup wins. Team NZ would be utterly nuts to replace him with Butterworth who's racked up 4 America's Cup wins. Come on Team NZ, stick with Dalts, keep that losing streak going.

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http://www.radiosport.co.nz/audio/458299760-sir-stephen-tindall--team-new-zealand

 

 

BB rejected for the following reasons

1. No commercial skills, a good sailor but not had to raise the dough

2. No commercial plan submitted

3. Tindall and Co had a handshake agreement with RC and BB in 2000, - and yet they walked (a'holes)

4. Only wanted the CEO job - did not want a sailing job

5. Board 100% behind GD

6. The truth about how TNZ lost campaign will be disclosed in the next few months

 

 

Really good interview. Suggest all listen

 

Background: Tindall is a knight (sir) and earnt that through his establishing "The Warehouse" (NZ equivalent of Walmart) and then his support of NZ small businesses and other social things. A really good guy - 100% kiwi and willing to put his money where his heart is. Absolute integrity.

 

If BB and RC shook his hand in 2000 and then reneged he would be very wary of them.

 

Your understanding of what happened in 2000 is incomplete and naive.

Thank you for your kind and diplomatic response.

 

However it is not my understanding - it is Tindall's. And he was the one who wrote out a cheque for $4m in 2000. He is not the type of guy who makes things up.

 

If you know better - please explain.

 

Why bother?

 

You evidently think TNZ trustees from that time should have their word taken as gospel.

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BB is not a man of his word.

 

Tindall has seen this first hand.

 

Tindall would never hire him

 

Tindall writes out cheques so he has the major say.

 

BB never had any hope of being part of TNZ again.

 

Very sound and impeccable reasoning Barny. What's more, Dalts has a proven track record of zero America's Cup wins. Team NZ would be utterly nuts to replace him with Butterworth who's racked up 4 America's Cup wins. Come on Team NZ, stick with Dalts, keep that losing streak going.

Dalton raised the funds the hard way (no one else has ever been as successful as Dalton's fund raising for the AC) he employed the right people to design a multi hull and came within a whisker of defeating OR who had a considerable head start over all challengers .

Wasn't Conner as successful at raising funds as Dalton? Plus he won it a few times in addition to fund raising.

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BB is not a man of his word.

 

Tindall has seen this first hand.

 

Tindall would never hire him

 

Tindall writes out cheques so he has the major say.

 

BB never had any hope of being part of TNZ again.

 

Very sound and impeccable reasoning Barny. What's more, Dalts has a proven track record of zero America's Cup wins. Team NZ would be utterly nuts to replace him with Butterworth who's racked up 4 America's Cup wins. Come on Team NZ, stick with Dalts, keep that losing streak going.

Dalton raised the funds the hard way (no one else has ever been as successful as Dalton's fund raising for the AC) he employed the right people to design a multi hull and came within a whisker of defeating OR who had a considerable head start over all challengers .

Wasn't Conner as successful at raising funds as Dalton? Plus he won it a few times in addition to fund raising.

So we should ask Dennis to head TNZ? Is that what you're saying?

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Wasn't Conner as successful at raising funds as Dalton? Plus he won it a few times in addition to fund raising.

 

Not fair to compare to Conner. He sailed in a whole different weight class.

 

Koukel

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Those wanting Butterworth put in charge are exactly the sort of knuckleheads who wanted Robbie Deans put in charge of the All Blacks. They moaned when he went to Australia and look how that went (hint: not very well at all).

 

Butterworth is a prize A-hole who is sitting, unemployed because he is old news, in his Waiheke Island mansion feeling like he knows better. well Bradley, you can jog on son!

 

but in general the last two weeks have been a clusterfuck omnishambles for TNZ. but at least it got the private donors reaching into their pockets!

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Why bother?

 

You evidently think TNZ trustees from that time should have their word taken as gospel.

 

so in other words, you have nothing.

 

put up or shut up?

 

I have forgotten more about it than you ever knew, jackass.

 

RC was promised he was actually getting control of the team but when he tried to bring in additional funding (Ernesto), he was told he could not. The trustees had an incredibly incestuous relationship with the "Family of Five" and were more interested in their business arrangements than what was best for TNZ.

 

That's the short version.

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Why bother?

 

You evidently think TNZ trustees from that time should have their word taken as gospel.

 

so in other words, you have nothing.

 

put up or shut up?

 

I have forgotten more about it than you ever knew, jackass.

 

RC was promised he was actually getting control of the team but when he tried to bring in additional funding (Ernesto), he was told he could not. The trustees had an incredibly incestuous relationship with the "Family of Five" and were more interested in their business arrangements than what was best for TNZ.

 

That's the short version.

Interesting stuff, if true. I don't claim to know in ins and outs of what happened, so there we go.

 

it must be truly draining having to be a rude prick 24/7. good luck with that.

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..

but in general the last two weeks have been a clusterfuck omnishambles for TNZ. but at least it got the private donors reaching into their pockets!

apparently Tindall made GD make the appeal to the govt, to try save his own pocket reach.

 

That backfired, he had to reach anyway, and that's fine. But he should not have put GD in that position in the first place. T did at least front up after the ensuing PR disaster, in a way at least. But the month-end world-ending ultimatum newspaper headlines were pretty harsh, T should not have forced GD to make that headline-making ultimatum since T had obviously planned to cash things out privately regardless the reactions.

 

edit: wrt the blame-game report that Veitchy is salivating over, it's disappointing too that Tindall gave him a 'teaser' or whatever his term was, that suggested a major problem being the MC having been too busy with the AC45 cheating allegations interrogation by the IJ, and so supposedly not able to properly deal withETNZ's eve of the Match allegations about who Herbie was...

 

It reminds of the last-eve attack on Alinghi over the Mainsail release hook. As if that protest technicality might also have won the Cup, as opposed to it being about building and sailing the fastest boat.

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Joyce defends GD Salary, and indicates future sponsorship consistent with previous statements:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11279897

 

If you listen to the Radio NZ interview he doesn't defend it at all really. NZ Herald strikes again with their rubbish reporting, they also copy and paste the final paragraph which is now completely out of date. morons.

 

anyway, heres the audio link for the Minister's interview

http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/2600648/economic-development-minister-on-america%27s-cup-top-earners

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..

but in general the last two weeks have been a clusterfuck omnishambles for TNZ. but at least it got the private donors reaching into their pockets!

apparently Tindall made GD make the appeal to the govt, to try save his own pocket reach.

 

That backfired, he had to reach anyway, and that's fine. But he should not have put GD in that position in the first place. T did at least front up for the ensuing PR disaster, in a way at least. But the damage was pretty harsh, he should not have forced GD to make that headline-making ultimatum.

 

if that's the case then you are absolutely correct, it should never have come to that. which is a shame.

 

TNZ should make it through the rest of this year on their own steam, IMO. They need to demonstrate that they partner with the NZ govt, rather than rely on them.

 

We have far to much politics on envy and cutting down of successful people here. TNZ need to regenerate their positive image and make an agreement with the Govt early next year.

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Joyce defends GD Salary, and indicates future sponsorship consistent with previous statements:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11279897

 

If you listen to the Radio NZ interview he doesn't defend it at all really. NZ Herald strikes again with their rubbish reporting, they also copy and paste the final paragraph which is now completely out of date. morons.

 

anyway, heres the audio link for the Minister's interview

http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/2600648/economic-development-minister-on-america%27s-cup-top-earners

Ha ha - fair enough. Guyon didn't really want to hear the answers to his questions did he...

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..

but in general the last two weeks have been a clusterfuck omnishambles for TNZ. but at least it got the private donors reaching into their pockets!

apparently Tindall made GD make the appeal to the govt, to try save his own pocket reach.

Where did you hear that nugget Stinger?

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Those wanting Butterworth put in charge are exactly the sort of knuckleheads who wanted Robbie Deans put in charge of the All Blacks. They moaned when he went to Australia and look how that went (hint: not very well at all).

 

Butterworth is a prize A-hole who is sitting, unemployed because he is old news, in his Waiheke Island mansion feeling like he knows better. well Bradley, you can jog on son!

 

but in general the last two weeks have been a clusterfuck omnishambles for TNZ. but at least it got the private donors reaching into their pockets!

 

Seriously mate no one fucken cares anymore.

The AC has been turned to gordy freak show.

Personally I rather see TNZ chasing the Volvo, TP52s and some serious world sailing records.

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Those wanting Butterworth put in charge are exactly the sort of knuckleheads who wanted Robbie Deans put in charge of the All Blacks. They moaned when he went to Australia and look how that went (hint: not very well at all).

 

Butterworth is a prize A-hole who is sitting, unemployed because he is old news, in his Waiheke Island mansion feeling like he knows better. well Bradley, you can jog on son!

 

but in general the last two weeks have been a clusterfuck omnishambles for TNZ. but at least it got the private donors reaching into their pockets!

 

Butterworth is a prize A-hole winner. Dalts is a prize A-hole loser.

 

I prefer the prize A-hole winner over the prize A-hole loser.

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BB is not a man of his word.

 

Tindall has seen this first hand.

 

Tindall would never hire him

 

Tindall writes out cheques so he has the major say.

 

BB never had any hope of being part of TNZ again.

 

Very sound and impeccable reasoning Barny. What's more, Dalts has a proven track record of zero America's Cup wins. Team NZ would be utterly nuts to replace him with Butterworth who's racked up 4 America's Cup wins. Come on Team NZ, stick with Dalts, keep that losing streak going.

 

You are dreaming if you think that Butterworth's achievements can compare in the smallest way to Daltons ..

 

You got a point there. Dalts may be the most successful loser in professional sport. Not sure Butterworth would have any hope of topping that.

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BB is not a man of his word.

 

Tindall has seen this first hand.

 

Tindall would never hire him

 

Tindall writes out cheques so he has the major say.

 

BB never had any hope of being part of TNZ again.

 

Very sound and impeccable reasoning Barny. What's more, Dalts has a proven track record of zero America's Cup wins. Team NZ would be utterly nuts to replace him with Butterworth who's racked up 4 America's Cup wins. Come on Team NZ, stick with Dalts, keep that losing streak going.

 

You are dreaming if you think that Butterworth's achievements can compare in the smallest way to Daltons ..

 

You got a point there. Dalts may be the most successful loser in professional sport. Not sure Butterworth would have any hope of topping that.

 

The fact that Butterworth was a member of a winning team does not qualify him to be a team leader when fund raising is an essential part of the job .. with your kind of logic the person who cleaned the toilets for Oracle would make a better CEO for ETNZ because Oracle won with multi hulls .

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BB is not a man of his word.

 

Tindall has seen this first hand.

 

Tindall would never hire him

 

Tindall writes out cheques so he has the major say.

 

BB never had any hope of being part of TNZ again.

 

Very sound and impeccable reasoning Barny. What's more, Dalts has a proven track record of zero America's Cup wins. Team NZ would be utterly nuts to replace him with Butterworth who's racked up 4 America's Cup wins. Come on Team NZ, stick with Dalts, keep that losing streak going.

 

You are dreaming if you think that Butterworth's achievements can compare in the smallest way to Daltons ..

 

You got a point there. Dalts may be the most successful loser in professional sport. Not sure Butterworth would have any hope of topping that.

 

The fact that Butterworth was a member of a winning team does not qualify him to be a team leader when fund raising is an essential part of the job .. with your kind of logic the person who cleaned the toilets for Oracle would make a better CEO for ETNZ because Oracle won with multi hulls .

Well...the obvious response I guess is: "He couldn't do any worse". But I understand what you are saying, Terry. :)

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BB is not a man of his word.

 

Tindall has seen this first hand.

 

Tindall would never hire him

 

Tindall writes out cheques so he has the major say.

 

BB never had any hope of being part of TNZ again.

 

Very sound and impeccable reasoning Barny. What's more, Dalts has a proven track record of zero America's Cup wins. Team NZ would be utterly nuts to replace him with Butterworth who's racked up 4 America's Cup wins. Come on Team NZ, stick with Dalts, keep that losing streak going.

 

You are dreaming if you think that Butterworth's achievements can compare in the smallest way to Daltons ..

 

You got a point there. Dalts may be the most successful loser in professional sport. Not sure Butterworth would have any hope of topping that.

 

The fact that Butterworth was a member of a winning team does not qualify him to be a team leader when fund raising is an essential part of the job .. with your kind of logic the person who cleaned the toilets for Oracle would make a better CEO for ETNZ because Oracle won with multi hulls .

 

According to your logic. Losing qualifies you to be team leader and the essential part of the job is not winning but fund raising so you can take a percentage to fund a lavish lifestyle. I hear Dalts recently purchased a $100K Ducati. Awesome!

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Joyce defends GD Salary, and indicates future sponsorship consistent with previous statements:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11279897

 

If you listen to the Radio NZ interview he doesn't defend it at all really. NZ Herald strikes again with their rubbish reporting, they also copy and paste the final paragraph which is now completely out of date. morons.

 

anyway, heres the audio link for the Minister's interview

http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/2600648/economic-development-minister-on-america%27s-cup-top-earners

Ha ha - fair enough. Guyon didn't really want to hear the answers to his questions did he...

Pretty bloody obvious which camp he's in alright.

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According to your logic. Losing qualifies you to be team leader and the essential part of the job is not winning but fund raising so you can take a percentage to fund a lavish lifestyle. I hear Dalts recently purchased a $100K Ducati. Awesome!

Had there been one more win for ETNZ in AC34, I suggest even you would have thought GD's $2 million salary was a cheap deal. You might not have even bulked at a big fat winners bonus as well!

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According to your logic. Losing qualifies you to be team leader and the essential part of the job is not winning but fund raising so you can take a percentage to fund a lavish lifestyle. I hear Dalts recently purchased a $100K Ducati. Awesome!

 

Had there been one more win for ETNZ in AC34, I suggest even you would have thought GD's $2 million salary was a cheap deal. You might not have even bulked at a big fat winners bonus as well!

 

Correct, and I would demand his salary be doubled to $4 million.

 

But unfortunately Dalts has been in the game for over a decade now and his America's Cup wins total up to ZERO.

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BB is not a man of his word.

 

Tindall has seen this first hand.

 

Tindall would never hire him

 

Tindall writes out cheques so he has the major say.

 

BB never had any hope of being part of TNZ again.

 

Very sound and impeccable reasoning Barny. What's more, Dalts has a proven track record of zero America's Cup wins. Team NZ would be utterly nuts to replace him with Butterworth who's racked up 4 America's Cup wins. Come on Team NZ, stick with Dalts, keep that losing streak going.

 

You are dreaming if you think that Butterworth's achievements can compare in the smallest way to Daltons ..

 

You got a point there. Dalts may be the most successful loser in professional sport. Not sure Butterworth would have any hope of topping that.

 

The fact that Butterworth was a member of a winning team does not qualify him to be a team leader when fund raising is an essential part of the job .. with your kind of logic the person who cleaned the toilets for Oracle would make a better CEO for ETNZ because Oracle won with multi hulls .

Terry

 

Now you are being silly. Butterworth was more than just a member of a winning team and you know it. He has won the AC twice as tactician and once as skipper. Skipper is the same role as RC did for 3 of his AC wins. In fact, the last Cup was the first MC Cup that RC won as CEO.

 

The debate is an interesting one because it is clear that Butterworth has never needed to raise funds, so we don't know how well he would go at that. However, for the on the water activities, he is way ahead of GD in terms of experience. Some seem to think that RTW racing gives you the experience needed for the AC. It doesn't, as GD is consistently showing.

 

Anybody who thinks that Butterworth's experience wouldn't be an asset is crazy. Whether he is right as CEO is questionable. However, the same could be said for GD. Yes, he is good at the fundraising, but he has fallen short twice and in each case, blame can be placed at his door. I am not saying can GD, but the "board" needs to find a way of using his talents correctly (fundraising etc) and having somebody else look after the things he is falling short on (the sailing). The biggest indicator that all was not well was the way that GD took a role in the sailing team. RC, a far better sailor, knew his limitations and didn't sail. GD should not have been on the boat and he should have known that. I am sure enough of the team did know that but were clearly too constrained to tell him.

 

TNZ needs change. As Einstein is reputed as having said "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results". That doesn't mean i am advocating getting rid of GD as such, but it is clear his role needs to change dramatically. It seems to me that the biggest threat to TNZ is arrogance, intransigence and political in fighting among the NZ sailing elite.

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According to your logic. Losing qualifies you to be team leader and the essential part of the job is not winning but fund raising so you can take a percentage to fund a lavish lifestyle. I hear Dalts recently purchased a $100K Ducati. Awesome!

 

Had there been one more win for ETNZ in AC34, I suggest even you would have thought GD's $2 million salary was a cheap deal. You might not have even bulked at a big fat winners bonus as well!

 

Correct, and I would demand his salary be doubled to $4 million.

 

But unfortunately Dalts has been in the game for over a decade now and his America's Cup wins total up to ZERO.

Zero wins just like all the other challenging team CEO's, it would appear. (Unless EB is back - but then TNZ is not for sale this time around.)

 

So what exactly is your point?

 

You'd be right in thinking GD has come closer than anyone else too. Nobody said winning the AC was easy.

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Very sound and impeccable reasoning Barny. What's more, Dalts has a proven track record of zero America's Cup wins. Team NZ would be utterly nuts to replace him with Butterworth who's racked up 4 America's Cup wins. Come on Team NZ, stick with Dalts, keep that losing streak going.

 

You are dreaming if you think that Butterworth's achievements can compare in the smallest way to Daltons ..

 

You got a point there. Dalts may be the most successful loser in professional sport. Not sure Butterworth would have any hope of topping that.

 

The fact that Butterworth was a member of a winning team does not qualify him to be a team leader when fund raising is an essential part of the job .. with your kind of logic the person who cleaned the toilets for Oracle would make a better CEO for ETNZ because Oracle won with multi hulls .

Terry

 

Now you are being silly. Butterworth was more than just a member of a winning team and you know it. He has won the AC twice as tactician and once as skipper. Skipper is the same role as RC did for 3 of his AC wins. In fact, the last Cup was the first MC Cup that RC won as CEO.

 

The debate is an interesting one because it is clear that Butterworth has never needed to raise funds, so we don't know how well he would go at that. However, for the on the water activities, he is way ahead of GD in terms of experience. Some seem to think that RTW racing gives you the experience needed for the AC. It doesn't, as GD is consistently showing.

 

Anybody who thinks that Butterworth's experience wouldn't be an asset is crazy. Whether he is right as CEO is questionable. However, the same could be said for GD. Yes, he is good at the fundraising, but he has fallen short twice and in each case, blame can be placed at his door. I am not saying can GD, but the "board" needs to find a way of using his talents correctly (fundraising etc) and having somebody else look after the things he is falling short on (the sailing). The biggest indicator that all was not well was the way that GD took a role in the sailing team. RC, a far better sailor, knew his limitations and didn't sail. GD should not have been on the boat and he should have known that. I am sure enough of the team did know that but were clearly too constrained to tell him.

 

TNZ needs change. As Einstein is reputed as having said "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results". That doesn't mean i am advocating getting rid of GD as such, but it is clear his role needs to change dramatically. It seems to me that the biggest threat to TNZ is arrogance, intransigence and political in fighting among the NZ sailing elite.

 

I agree with your points and see the issue as one of two critical roles that need to be fulfilled - one of a successful fundraiser which ET needs and has with grumpy, and one of a successful sailing team leader which BB could fulfill where grumpy has failed at.

 

Ideally if you could define the two roles within the team successfully with two people you might have a successful strategy. I just don't think this is possible given grumpys ego and team politics, which seems to be the bane of this team over the past decade. Grumpy's autocratic management style seems to be the crippling factor in their AC34 loss - belligerent about being on the boat is a key indicator - EB made the same mistake in AC33, and was dumb enough to challenge LE to be on the boat to which LE replied "why would I do that with the team I have in place". Not exactly rocket science, but common sense..

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The fact that Butterworth was a member of a winning team does not qualify him to be a team leader when fund raising is an essential part of the job .. with your kind of logic the person who cleaned the toilets for Oracle would make a better CEO for ETNZ because Oracle won with multi hulls .

Terry

 

Now you are being silly. Butterworth was more than just a member of a winning team and you know it. He has won the AC twice as tactician and once as skipper. Skipper is the same role as RC did for 3 of his AC wins. In fact, the last Cup was the first MC Cup that RC won as CEO.

 

The debate is an interesting one because it is clear that Butterworth has never needed to raise funds, so we don't know how well he would go at that. However, for the on the water activities, he is way ahead of GD in terms of experience. Some seem to think that RTW racing gives you the experience needed for the AC. It doesn't, as GD is consistently showing.

 

Anybody who thinks that Butterworth's experience wouldn't be an asset is crazy. Whether he is right as CEO is questionable. However, the same could be said for GD. Yes, he is good at the fundraising, but he has fallen short twice and in each case, blame can be placed at his door. I am not saying can GD, but the "board" needs to find a way of using his talents correctly (fundraising etc) and having somebody else look after the things he is falling short on (the sailing). The biggest indicator that all was not well was the way that GD took a role in the sailing team. RC, a far better sailor, knew his limitations and didn't sail. GD should not have been on the boat and he should have known that. I am sure enough of the team did know that but were clearly too constrained to tell him.

 

TNZ needs change. As Einstein is reputed as having said "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results". That doesn't mean i am advocating getting rid of GD as such, but it is clear his role needs to change dramatically. It seems to me that the biggest threat to TNZ is arrogance, intransigence and political in fighting among the NZ sailing elite.

 

For a team like TNZ there are three components needed to win the AC ..

 

1. Raise sufficient money to win

2. Employ competent people to design the boat

3. Employ competent people to sail the boat

 

For teams that Butterworth has won with he has never had to deal with the first requirement ..

 

Right now TNZ are in survival mode .. fund raising is the most important skill .. without that nothing happens and TNZ is no more .

 

I agree that Dalton is not perfect but I will never agree that Butterworth is better and as skipper he did not manage a winning team .. that was Grant Simmers success .

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Wasn't Conner as successful at raising funds as Dalton? Plus he won it a few times in addition to fund raising.

AFAIK Conner exited the AC game precisely because he couldn't raise funds.

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For a team like TNZ there are three components needed to win the AC ..

 

1. Raise sufficient money to win

2. Employ competent people to design the boat

3. Employ competent people to sail the boat

 

For teams that Butterworth has won with he has never had to deal with the first requirement ..

 

Right now TNZ are in survival mode .. fund raising is the most important skill .. without that nothing happens and TNZ is no more .

 

I agree that Dalton is not perfect but I will never agree that Butterworth is better and as skipper he did not manage a winning team .. that was Grant Simmers success .

Im a huge fan of Dalts and have huge respect for all he's done for ETNZ. However, I think the biggest problem is that there are too many people on the board who still have bad blood from 2003. The fact that BB is a huge part of the reason NZ can even say we won the thing. If it wasn't for Brad, we would still be a country that had never won the AC. I think what should've happened was Grant should've been moved off the front line onto the board. Grant can still raise money as part of the ETNZ board. Brad should've been made CEO answerable to the board (and Grant). That would've given ETNZ the best of both worlds. No matter what people say, perception is reality when you're trying to drum up public support. ETNZ needs to be seen to be doing everything possible to win, because New Zealand WILL NOT take another loss. Grant and Brad have what it takes, they need to put animosities aside and work together for the good of the team and New Zealand

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Not going to work with BB and GD.

 

BB wanted the top job - he didn't have the skills - so wasn't hired

 

The TNZ this round will be different from last in that GD will have the top job and Shoebridge will be operations (sailing team)

 

This will be a better fit of each of their skills. Skipper will be the best person for the job.

 

For BB to apply (and it was a very weak application - with no business case) demonstrates that he still has no idea what he did wrong in 2000. yes he has an ego and some friends who applied pressure to TNZ to make a change but he was never going to get the job.



Not going to work with BB and GD.

 

BB wanted the top job - he didn't have the skills - so wasn't hired

 

The TNZ this round will be different from last in that GD will have the top job and Shoebridge will be operations (sailing team)

 

This will be a better fit of each of their skills. Skipper will be the best person for the job.

 

For BB to apply (and it was a very weak application - with no business case) demonstrates that he still has no idea what he did wrong in 2000. yes he has an ego and some friends who applied pressure to TNZ to make a change but he was never going to get the job.

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According to your logic. Losing qualifies you to be team leader and the essential part of the job is not winning but fund raising so you can take a percentage to fund a lavish lifestyle. I hear Dalts recently purchased a $100K Ducati. Awesome!

 

Had there been one more win for ETNZ in AC34, I suggest even you would have thought GD's $2 million salary was a cheap deal. You might not have even bulked at a big fat winners bonus as well!

 

Correct, and I would demand his salary be doubled to $4 million.

 

But unfortunately Dalts has been in the game for over a decade now and his America's Cup wins total up to ZERO.

Zero wins just like all the other challenging team CEO's, it would appear. (Unless EB is back - but then TNZ is not for sale this time around.)

 

So what exactly is your point?

 

You'd be right in thinking GD has come closer than anyone else too. Nobody said winning the AC was easy.

 

What is my point? Sack proven losers (e.g. Dalts), and hire proven winners in their place (e.g. BB).

 

I don't blame Dalts for staying to be honest. If some board of directors wants to keep him on gravy train so Team NZ keeps the losing formula then good for him I guess.

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According to your logic. Losing qualifies you to be team leader and the essential part of the job is not winning but fund raising so you can take a percentage to fund a lavish lifestyle. I hear Dalts recently purchased a $100K Ducati. Awesome!

 

Had there been one more win for ETNZ in AC34, I suggest even you would have thought GD's $2 million salary was a cheap deal. You might not have even bulked at a big fat winners bonus as well!

 

Correct, and I would demand his salary be doubled to $4 million.

 

But unfortunately Dalts has been in the game for over a decade now and his America's Cup wins total up to ZERO.

Zero wins just like all the other