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I thought it was only two accumulators? But im probably misinformed... 8)

There are also 2 low-pressure accumulators (max 6bar)

 

And would you happen to know if there is a max capacity? Or is it assumed that weight would take car of that?

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I watched them off North Head for half an hour or so. She's a screamer, in more ways than one! Very impressive sound in full flight, and being handled quite aggressively through the corners ... Slightly nose-down and low-riding in a straight line. On one occasion, way down the other end of the course, she seemed to find a whole new gear ... wow.

 

33139089625_ac42a9f1e1_b.jpg

 

32982333252_68cefa65fd_b.jpg

 

32982332922_8935095b1c_b.jpg

 

33139088615_4eaf57e046_b.jpg

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great shots...

 

Looks like it's a two and two approach through gybes.

 

Two cyclists go over first, start peddling on the leeward side, means there is always atleast two creating power at anyone time

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You're very welcome; just makes me wonder how come in that mecca for sailing, Bermuda, there are no fans posting photos and videos of all the activity??

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I don't think ETNZ are going to have any problems in the speed area. There is one area where they may be vulnerable. Now that the cyclors have been implemented, it looks like there is no position for Ray Davies on the boat. Their master tactician has now been consigned to a coaching role, and ETNZ now have next to no match race experience on the boat. I guess the recent match racing experience Pete and his team had in Australia may count for something, but ETNZ will be hoping and praying that they are faster than everyone else, because unless they are doing some sort of in house match race training on other boats, if they get caught up in a one on one equal speed match race with another team, it will certainly be interesting to see how they handle it.

That's why SBTJ are more than ever capable of making trouble to ETNZ and in any case ETNZ to be in big trouble facing Jimmy if they succeed on winning the seat as Challenger, but this is true for any Teams facing OTUSA... :-)

In term of speed, expect SBTJ, ETNZ and OTUSA to be very very close...

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You're very welcome; just makes me wonder how come in that mecca for sailing, Bermuda, there are no fans posting photos and videos of all the activity??

 

Nice work again, Weta. Many thanks.

 

What was the approx. wind speed at the time, do you know?

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Lovely stiff Weta! Let me add my thanks. If that's the view from North Head I've gotta get up there and see for myself. If I knew their sked I'd even rent an L-Series Canon 300mm lens for a couple of days!

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Appears to be a different port board than that V foil shown the other day. I'd say swapping out for wind conditions, as we expected. Thoughts?

 

Courtesy great pics from, Weta.

post-76289-0-48478000-1488162350_thumb.jpg

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You're very welcome; just makes me wonder how come in that mecca for sailing, Bermuda, there are no fans posting photos and videos of all the activity??

 

Maybe we should club together and buy you tickets to BDA and you could go and do the job for them?

Sorry, don't know what the wind speed was

 

About what time were you snapping?

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I don't think ETNZ are going to have any problems in the speed area. There is one area where they may be vulnerable. Now that the cyclors have been implemented, it looks like there is no position for Ray Davies on the boat. Their master tactician has now been consigned to a coaching role, and ETNZ now have next to no match race experience on the boat. I guess the recent match racing experience Pete and his team had in Australia may count for something, but ETNZ will be hoping and praying that they are faster than everyone else, because unless they are doing some sort of in house match race training on other boats, if they get caught up in a one on one equal speed match race with another team, it will certainly be interesting to see how they handle it.

That's why SBTJ are more than ever capable of making trouble to ETNZ and in any case ETNZ to be in big trouble facing Jimmy if they succeed on winning the seat as Challenger, but this is true for any Teams facing OTUSA... :-)

In term of speed, expect SBTJ, ETNZ and OTUSA to be very very close...

 

 

Very, very close would be good. ETNZ being faster would be better. We'll need all the help we can get! :D

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About 12.30 - 1pm Sailbydate. Yes, I would happily do the job in Bermuda - although I'd rather be watching these guys!

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Looks like North Easterly around 10knots. I'd maybe say a bit higher to get that slight sea going - although maybe wind against tide would create that. What do the locals say? Speaking from Wellington, wind is VERY relative!!

post-76289-0-72123400-1488163463_thumb.png

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Oracle always had the faster boat, they just weren't sailing it to its full potetntial, where ETNZ had reached the development limit of their boat. They were just hoping Oracle wouldn't have enough time to reach that potential. Unfortunately for ETNZ, IM gave them that time.

No, no, no. OR made the modifications after their day off. It involved sailors, architects, technicians. The changed the wing slots, it was NOT a question of sailing but changing the configuration.

How can all of you spend so much time here and have such a short memory ?

 

 

I think it might be more of a selective memory than a short one.

 

That and blaming results on anything but the actual facts.

 

Like cheating?

 

Indio, you are the one probably with the shortest memory here... First of all this system is a version 1 OTUSA tested early July and showed the measurers. They raced with a version 2 that was close to this concept but far more smarter and safer than this one. Nevertheless the system was on race boat beginning of August and never got changed nor tuned afterwards

As of cheating, the MC validated the system after long hearings of both parties involved in the protest and ETNZ had the choice to make the exact same system, OTUSA had disclosed the full schematic and valve references but they chose to play idiots and fight it. MC said the system was legal under AC34th rules and it was. Everybody saying the opposite is just trying to find justifications and excuses for ETNZ not to win the Cup.

 

Now as of how OTUSA got back on track, sclarke has it right except that it isn't IM who gave the time to OTUSA but mister Grant Dalton himself while calling for a day off during the series.

It is true OTUSA was very late in its developments due to the capsize. They had to make choices and the crew work had been put at the bottom of the priority list. It was the last thing to be improved.

Along with some "adjustments" it's true on the technical side (wing more bottom loaded etc) to adjust upwind flying but really the main thing was the handling of the boat and the addition of one of the best sailor on earth, Sir Ben. So yes it was very much a question of sailing. I'm not saying OTUSA stopped developing during the match, they did continue. Out of 19 races OTUSA had 17 Measurement Certificates. ETNZ... Just 8. Those certificates were "new" when the config changed from one race to another. A simple rudder trim adjustment before race would actually induce a new certificate.

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Looks like North Easterly around 10knots. I'd maybe say a bit higher to get that slight sea going - although maybe wind against tide would create that. What do the locals say? Speaking from Wellington, wind is VERY relative!!

 

Looks like a hair more then 10 to me. 11 - 12 against tide.

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Is it my imagination, or do these AC50 seem to "heave up" in tight, fast turns? Could it be the effect of G Forces?

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And yes, the photos show a different stbd board from the other day, so I presume that's for the conditions, and the port board has a post whereas the stbd doesn't? Again, could be trying various options out, or could be finding some kind of asymmetric setup is optimal? And yes, I think they bring the boat out of the water for those turns, guess it makes sense to have as little drag as possible.

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Can't see any mention of accumulator capacity there. But what I'm curious about is how much of a tack or gibe fully charged accumulators can power. I've seen no data anywhere to permit that calculation, do you have any?

 

edit...Or even what capacity they'd have to be to allow the completion of one manoeuvre.

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Looks like North Easterly around 10knots. I'd maybe say a bit higher to get that slight sea going - although maybe wind against tide would create that. What do the locals say? Speaking from Wellington, wind is VERY relative!!

 

Looks like a hair more then 10 to me. 11 - 12 against tide.

 

 

 

I'd pick wind speed as under 12 knots.

 

Sounds about right. Gusting a bit through the channel maybe. Weta reported she took off at the bottom of the course, so maybe that tallies.

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Oracle always had the faster boat, they just weren't sailing it to its full potetntial, where ETNZ had reached the development limit of their boat. They were just hoping Oracle wouldn't have enough time to reach that potential. Unfortunately for ETNZ, IM gave them that time.

No, no, no. OR made the modifications after their day off. It involved sailors, architects, technicians. The changed the wing slots, it was NOT a question of sailing but changing the configuration.

How can all of you spend so much time here and have such a short memory ?

I think it might be more of a selective memory than a short one.

 

That and blaming results on anything but the actual facts.

Like cheating?

Indio, you are the one probably with the shortest memory here... First of all this system is a version 1 OTUSA tested early July and showed the measurers. They raced with a version 2 that was close to this concept but far more smarter and safer than this one. Nevertheless the system was on race boat beginning of August and never got changed nor tuned afterwards

As of cheating, the MC validated the system after long hearings of both parties involved in the protest and ETNZ had the choice to make the exact same system, OTUSA had disclosed the full schematic and valve references but they chose to play idiots and fight it. MC said the system was legal under AC34th rules and it was. Everybody saying the opposite is just trying to find justifications and excuses for ETNZ not to win the Cup.

 

Now as of how OTUSA got back on track, sclarke has it right except that it isn't IM who gave the time to OTUSA but mister Grant Dalton himself while calling for a day off during the series.

It is true OTUSA was very late in its developments due to the capsize. They had to make choices and the crew work had been put at the bottom of the priority list. It was the last thing to be improved.

Along with some "adjustments" it's true on the technical side (wing more bottom loaded etc) to adjust upwind flying but really the main thing was the handling of the boat and the addition of one of the best sailor on earth, Sir Ben. So yes it was very much a question of sailing. I'm not saying OTUSA stopped developing during the match, they did continue. Out of 19 races OTUSA had 17 Measurement Certificates. ETNZ... Just 8. Those certificates were "new" when the config changed from one race to another. A simple rudder trim adjustment before race would actually induce a new certificate.

Well done post there

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Awesome pics. May I post some on an AC thread on another forum?

 

We do not condone the use of other forums!

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Has anybody run the time constant numbers on the accumulator capacity? e.g. average power / effective capacity = time the accumulators can power things without any pumping? Is it just a few seconds or minutes?

Easy enough to do if you knew actuator sizes used which I doubt anyone outside of the team designers would be privy to.

 

Yes totally depends what your actuators are and how you are using your accumulators.

By rules, 1 is dedicated to foils and rudders but only in pitch and 2 others are dedicated to foil extension.

 

Now those accumulators are One Design with a dry volume of 4.5L

Obviously to be a useful accumulator they need to be pre-charged with gaz at a certain pressure which induces the Energy you will be able to store in it from that pre-charge to 350 bars that is the limit of Max Rule Pressure.

Depending of your pre-charge, the available oil volume varies too.

Each team can choose the pre-charge of each accumulator.

For instance, @ 120 bars precharge and assuming an accumulator charged to Max pressure, you will store about 1.5L in oil which translates into about 30KJ in Stored Energy.

 

But again it is to each team to be smart enough on how to use it and this is a good part of the Energy strategy which will be a hidden part but important of the next AC.

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Awesome pics. May I post some on an AC thread on another forum?

 

We do not condone the use of other forums!

 

 

And if you do, credit to weta27, Sailing Anarchist!

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A couple of good interviews from a couple of years ago.

What happened with the lay-day (part 1) their views on the wind limits, what they based their design on, and the future.

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Is it my imagination, or do these AC50 seem to "heave up" in tight, fast turns? Could it be the effect of G Forces?

 

Or could it even be the additional lift when the second foil hits the water?

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Awesome pics. May I post some on an AC thread on another forum?

 

Hey Day Tripper, thanks for asking, sure no problem, as suggested above, if you can credit me, Weta27, and Sailing Anarchy.

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Can't see any mention of accumulator capacity there. But what I'm curious about is how much of a tack or gibe fully charged accumulators can power. I've seen no data anywhere to permit that calculation, do you have any?

 

edit...Or even what capacity they'd have to be to allow the completion of one manoeuvre.

 

You'd need to know the sizes of the hydraulic actuators (cylinders & motors) before anyone can make any meaningful calculations, and I doubt they'd make that info available because their opposition can make the same calculations and determine their power generation capacities.

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A couple of good interviews from a couple of years ago.

What happened with the lay-day (part 1) their views on the wind limits, what they based their design on, and the future.

Interesting, VERY interesting. I had never seen those once! Thanks sclarke!

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Can't see any mention of accumulator capacity there. But what I'm curious about is how much of a tack or gibe fully charged accumulators can power. I've seen no data anywhere to permit that calculation, do you have any?

 

edit...Or even what capacity they'd have to be to allow the completion of one manoeuvre.

 

You'd need to know the sizes of the hydraulic actuators (cylinders & motors) before anyone can make any meaningful calculations, and I doubt they'd make that info available because their opposition can make the same calculations and determine their power generation capacities.

 

Yes totally depends what your actuators are and how you are using your accumulators.

By rules, 1 is dedicated to foils and rudders but only in pitch and 2 others are dedicated to foil extension.

 

Now those accumulators are One Design with a dry volume of 4.5L

Obviously to be a useful accumulator they need to be pre-charged with gaz at a certain pressure which induces the Energy you will be able to store in it from that pre-charge to 350 bars that is the limit of Max Rule Pressure.

Depending of your pre-charge, the available oil volume varies too.

Each team can choose the pre-charge of each accumulator.

For instance, @ 120 bars precharge and assuming an accumulator charged to Max pressure, you will store about 1.5L in oil which translates into about 30KJ in Stored Energy.

 

But again it is to each team to be smart enough on how to use it and this is a good part of the Energy strategy which will be a hidden part but important of the next AC.

 

So Indio is right no one is going to tell you more...

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Awesome pics. May I post some on an AC thread on another forum?

 

Hey Day Tripper, thanks for asking, sure no problem, as suggested above, if you can credit me, Weta27, and Sailing Anarchy.

 

Thanks, to save possible complications I pointed them at the page the piccies are on.

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Surely they still have to be peddling/grinding through manoeuvres to change the trim of the wing as the accumulators can only be used for the boards. Hence the 2+2 approach seen upthread.

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For instance, @ 120 bars precharge and assuming an accumulator charged to Max pressure, you will store about 1.5L in oil which translates into about 30KJ in Stored Energy.

 

Sweet. Anyone care to estimate what AOA change on a foil 30 kJ could do?

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Looking around I get that 1 kJ/sec = 1 kilowatt

 

Comments from team designers said the the boats could be powered by a sewing machine or toaster, so call that 2 kilowatts, so could 30 kJ = 15 seconds of operation give or take?

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Surely they still have to be peddling/grinding through manoeuvres to change the trim of the wing as the accumulators can only be used for the boards. Hence the 2+2 approach seen upthread.

I wonder how much apparent air pressure would help shift the wing, but I had the same thought about the hydraulic pressure necessary to adjust/move it.

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Looking around I get that 1 kJ/sec = 1 kilowatt

 

Comments from team designers said the the boats could be powered by a sewing machine or toaster, so call that 2 kilowatts, so could 30 kJ = 15 seconds of operation give or take?

So, 1/2kW per hamster? That's not a lot to ask. Lets pretend it's possible for sustained periods.

2kW into a pressure convertor with 8Bar on the low pressure side and 350Bar on the high pressure side. The litre per second rate at 350Bar is going to be low. No wonder the hamsters are flat out. I reckon you're better off going for 200Bar and slightly larger rams or hydraulic motors. The weight difference would be minimal and there's lots of hardware available at 200Bar. Hydraulic motors that use reciprocating axial pistons are the most efficient. Volumetric efficiency is determined by dividing the actual flow delivered by a pump at a given pressure by its theoretical flow. Theoretical flow is calculated by multiplying the motor's displacement per revolution by its speed. So if the motor has a displacement of 100 cc/rev and is being driven at 1000 RPM, its theoretical flow is 100 liters/minute.

 

Actual flow has to be measured using a flow meter. If when tested, the above motor had an actual flow of 90 liters/minute at 207 bar (3000 PSI), we can say the pump has a volumetric efficiency of 90% at 207 bar (90 / 100 x 100 = 90%).

 

Advances in axial piston hydraulic motors have seen 92% efficiently.

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Looking around I get that 1 kJ/sec = 1 kilowatt

 

Comments from team designers said the the boats could be powered by a sewing machine or toaster, so call that 2 kilowatts, so could 30 kJ = 15 seconds of operation give or take?

So, 1/2kW per hamster? That's not a lot to ask. Lets pretend it's possible for sustained periods.

Peak performance.

 

Although Emirates Team NZ have never released any comparative numbers, the power of a top Olympic cyclist is about 500watts (about .75HP), the power of a top grinder is in the 250-300 watts range, and the power of a rower is around 480 watts.

http://www.sail-world.com

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Oracle always had the faster boat, they just weren't sailing it to its full potetntial, where ETNZ had reached the development limit of their boat. They were just hoping Oracle wouldn't have enough time to reach that potential. Unfortunately for ETNZ, IM gave them that time.

No, no, no. OR made the modifications after their day off. It involved sailors, architects, technicians. The changed the wing slots, it was NOT a question of sailing but changing the configuration.

How can all of you spend so much time here and have such a short memory ?

 

 

I think it might be more of a selective memory than a short one.

 

That and blaming results on anything but the actual facts.

 

Like cheating?

 

Indio, you are the one probably with the shortest memory here... First of all this system is a version 1 OTUSA tested early July and showed the measurers. They raced with a version 2 that was close to this concept but far more smarter and safer than this one. Nevertheless the system was on race boat beginning of August and never got changed nor tuned afterwards

As of cheating, the MC validated the system after long hearings of both parties involved in the protest and ETNZ had the choice to make the exact same system, OTUSA had disclosed the full schematic and valve references but they chose to play idiots and fight it. MC said the system was legal under AC34th rules and it was. Everybody saying the opposite is just trying to find justifications and excuses for ETNZ not to win the Cup.

 

Now as of how OTUSA got back on track, sclarke has it right except that it isn't IM who gave the time to OTUSA but mister Grant Dalton himself while calling for a day off during the series.

It is true OTUSA was very late in its developments due to the capsize. They had to make choices and the crew work had been put at the bottom of the priority list. It was the last thing to be improved.

Along with some "adjustments" it's true on the technical side (wing more bottom loaded etc) to adjust upwind flying but really the main thing was the handling of the boat and the addition of one of the best sailor on earth, Sir Ben. So yes it was very much a question of sailing. I'm not saying OTUSA stopped developing during the match, they did continue. Out of 19 races OTUSA had 17 Measurement Certificates. ETNZ... Just 8. Those certificates were "new" when the config changed from one race to another. A simple rudder trim adjustment before race would actually induce a new certificate.

 

 

Nothing like a few facts to ruin a perfectly good crusade .

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Advances in axial piston hydraulic motors have seen 92% efficiently.

Unfortunately the laws of thermodynamics haven't kept pace.

 

Hydraulic accumulators are great ... if you want X/2 back quickly after putting X in slowly.

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Dean Barker questions Team New Zealand's late arrival in Bermuda for America's Cup

 

"It certainly helps to have a year of sailing in Bermuda under us and at the Cup it'll feel like we're sailing at home," Barker said as Hikara – which translates to "Flash of Light" – was launched.

"We'll have a much better understanding of what to expect and the three teams who were based here will hopefully have an advantage over the other three."

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-sports/89827714/Dean-Barker-questions-Team-New-Zealands-late-arrival-in-Bermuda-for-Americas-Cup

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Anyone know the spend difference in budget between TNZ and Oracle? Want to know how much more Oracle are spending and have for development? Key factor IMO

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There would be a metric buttload more cash and resource for OR I'm sure...

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Anyone know the spend difference in budget between TNZ and Oracle? Want to know how much more Oracle are spending and have for development? Key factor IMO

 

Why would OTUSA share that information? Remember, this whole circus was supposed to be about lowering costs. Yeah, right!

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Anyone know the spend difference in budget between TNZ and Oracle? Want to know how much more Oracle are spending and have for development? Key factor IMO

 

Oracle is on a limited budget in this cycle compared to AC34. Notably they have only built a single boat.

 

Spending more than ETNZ? Obviously. Figures? Everyone exaggerates.

 

 

 

this whole circus was supposed to be about lowering costs

 

ACWS is supposed to increase sponsor value rather than decrease costs.

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Anyone know the spend difference in budget between TNZ and Oracle? Want to know how much more Oracle are spending and have for development? Key factor IMO

Oracle is on a limited budget in this cycle compared to AC34. Notably they have only built a single boat.

 

Spending more than ETNZ? Obviously. Figures? Everyone exaggerates.

this whole circus was supposed to be about lowering costs

ACWS is supposed to increase sponsor value rather than decrease costs.

Cost reduction is exactly what they were aiming for...

 

https://www.americascup.com/en/news/155_Significant-cost-saving-measures-planned-for-2017-Americas-Cup.html

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Where in that does it say that ACWS was intended to reduce costs?

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I was lucky to see etnz on the harbour today too. I'm not sure if she is as fast, or faster than the other ac50....but fuck me these boats can haul arse.....great to watch.

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Where in that does it say that ACWS was intended to reduce costs?

Where in Sails quote did he even mention the ACWS? You decided that was relevant to the conversation all on your own. I believe they were discussing team campaign costs, but maybe you mistook his use of the word circus to mean that dog's breakfast of a series...

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Can't see any mention of accumulator capacity there. But what I'm curious about is how much of a tack or gibe fully charged accumulators can power. I've seen no data anywhere to permit that calculation, do you have any?

 

edit...Or even what capacity they'd have to be to allow the completion of one manoeuvre.

 

You'd need to know the sizes of the hydraulic actuators (cylinders & motors) before anyone can make any meaningful calculations, and I doubt they'd make that info available because their opposition can make the same calculations and determine their power generation capacities.

 

Yes totally depends what your actuators are and how you are using your accumulators.

By rules, 1 is dedicated to foils and rudders but only in pitch and 2 others are dedicated to foil extension.

 

Now those accumulators are One Design with a dry volume of 4.5L

Obviously to be a useful accumulator they need to be pre-charged with gaz at a certain pressure which induces the Energy you will be able to store in it from that pre-charge to 350 bars that is the limit of Max Rule Pressure.

Depending of your pre-charge, the available oil volume varies too.

Each team can choose the pre-charge of each accumulator.

For instance, @ 120 bars precharge and assuming an accumulator charged to Max pressure, you will store about 1.5L in oil which translates into about 30KJ in Stored Energy.

 

But again it is to each team to be smart enough on how to use it and this is a good part of the Energy strategy which will be a hidden part but important of the next AC.

 

So Indio is right no one is going to tell you more...

 

 

I believe you will store 3.0l of oil if the accumulator total volume is constant (and is not isolated): gas volume at 350bar is 350/120*4.5l=1.5l so 4.5-1.5=3.0l of oil has to enter the accumulator. Which translate into 60kJ according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isothermal_process#Calculation_of_work.

If you consider 4 grinders producing 300W each that's 50seconds of grinding to recharge. You probably should get something similar for the non grinding time if you discharge the accumulator.

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Where in that does it say that ACWS was intended to reduce costs?

Where in Sails quote did he even mention the ACWS? You decided that was relevant to the conversation all on your own. I believe they were discussing team campaign costs, but maybe you mistook his use of the word circus to mean that dog's breakfast of a series...

 

 

All on my own? Half the population of SAAC has at some point referred to ACWS as a circus.

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Oracle always had the faster boat, they just weren't sailing it to its full potetntial, where ETNZ had reached the development limit of their boat. They were just hoping Oracle wouldn't have enough time to reach that potential. Unfortunately for ETNZ, IM gave them that time.

No, no, no. OR made the modifications after their day off. It involved sailors, architects, technicians. The changed the wing slots, it was NOT a question of sailing but changing the configuration.

How can all of you spend so much time here and have such a short memory ?

 

 

I think it might be more of a selective memory than a short one.

 

That and blaming results on anything but the actual facts.

 

Like cheating?

 

Indio, you are the one probably with the shortest memory here... First of all this system is a version 1 OTUSA tested early July and showed the measurers. They raced with a version 2 that was close to this concept but far more smarter and safer than this one. Nevertheless the system was on race boat beginning of August and never got changed nor tuned afterwards

As of cheating, the MC validated the system after long hearings of both parties involved in the protest and ETNZ had the choice to make the exact same system, OTUSA had disclosed the full schematic and valve references but they chose to play idiots and fight it. MC said the system was legal under AC34th rules and it was. Everybody saying the opposite is just trying to find justifications and excuses for ETNZ not to win the Cup.

 

Now as of how OTUSA got back on track, sclarke has it right except that it isn't IM who gave the time to OTUSA but mister Grant Dalton himself while calling for a day off during the series.

It is true OTUSA was very late in its developments due to the capsize. They had to make choices and the crew work had been put at the bottom of the priority list. It was the last thing to be improved.

Along with some "adjustments" it's true on the technical side (wing more bottom loaded etc) to adjust upwind flying but really the main thing was the handling of the boat and the addition of one of the best sailor on earth, Sir Ben. So yes it was very much a question of sailing. I'm not saying OTUSA stopped developing during the match, they did continue. Out of 19 races OTUSA had 17 Measurement Certificates. ETNZ... Just 8. Those certificates were "new" when the config changed from one race to another. A simple rudder trim adjustment before race would actually induce a new certificate.

 

 

Nothing like a few facts to ruin a perfectly good crusade .

 

 

But unfortunately these ^ are fairy tales - not facts.

 

ETNZ's protest against aspects of OTUSA's control system was dismissed because of untimeliness. No hard determination was ever made.

 

 

So while you are busy rewriting history don't forget the traditional finish - and they all lived happily ever after.

 

 

 

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You're very welcome; just makes me wonder how come in that mecca for sailing, Bermuda, there are no fans posting photos and videos of all the activity??

 

Great job, thanks for posting them.

 

Now, I see you mention video.... ;)

 

 

I wonder if the foil crane coming and going has anything to do with 'non-sailing days'?

 

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Oracle always had the faster boat, they just weren't sailing it to its full potetntial, where ETNZ had reached the development limit of their boat. They were just hoping Oracle wouldn't have enough time to reach that potential. Unfortunately for ETNZ, IM gave them that time.

No, no, no. OR made the modifications after their day off. It involved sailors, architects, technicians. The changed the wing slots, it was NOT a question of sailing but changing the configuration.

How can all of you spend so much time here and have such a short memory ?

 

 

I think it might be more of a selective memory than a short one.

 

That and blaming results on anything but the actual facts.

 

Like cheating?

 

Indio, you are the one probably with the shortest memory here... First of all this system is a version 1 OTUSA tested early July and showed the measurers. They raced with a version 2 that was close to this concept but far more smarter and safer than this one. Nevertheless the system was on race boat beginning of August and never got changed nor tuned afterwards

As of cheating, the MC validated the system after long hearings of both parties involved in the protest and ETNZ had the choice to make the exact same system, OTUSA had disclosed the full schematic and valve references but they chose to play idiots and fight it. MC said the system was legal under AC34th rules and it was. Everybody saying the opposite is just trying to find justifications and excuses for ETNZ not to win the Cup.

 

Now as of how OTUSA got back on track, sclarke has it right except that it isn't IM who gave the time to OTUSA but mister Grant Dalton himself while calling for a day off during the series.

It is true OTUSA was very late in its developments due to the capsize. They had to make choices and the crew work had been put at the bottom of the priority list. It was the last thing to be improved.

Along with some "adjustments" it's true on the technical side (wing more bottom loaded etc) to adjust upwind flying but really the main thing was the handling of the boat and the addition of one of the best sailor on earth, Sir Ben. So yes it was very much a question of sailing. I'm not saying OTUSA stopped developing during the match, they did continue. Out of 19 races OTUSA had 17 Measurement Certificates. ETNZ... Just 8. Those certificates were "new" when the config changed from one race to another. A simple rudder trim adjustment before race would actually induce a new certificate.

 

 

Nothing like a few facts to ruin a perfectly good crusade .

 

 

But unfortunately these ^ are fairy tales - not facts.

 

ETNZ's protest against aspects of OTUSA's control system was dismissed because of untimeliness. No hard determination was ever made.

 

 

So while you are busy rewriting history don't forget the traditional finish - and they all lived happily ever after.

 

 

 

 

 

And I think the measurers, or whoever it was who approved the fitting of the OTUSA illegal system in the first place, should be called out. Someone approved the system. The ETNZ protest might have been "untimely" , but in the heat of an AC series it was an unwanted and an unnecessary distraction for the team.

 

Teams should expect the measurers to do their job properly. If the measurers feel out of their depth then they need to get in experts to assist and assess.

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The MC rely more on 'scout's honour' now than experts!

Instead of relying on the fact that OR had prior history of cheating..and being convicted for it.

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Ever since then, the PR campaign has been in full swing trying to make everyone forget the fact that Oracle were caught cheating, yes, cheating, there is no other spin on it, and given all the other contributing factors (ending a race near the finish as one team was literally miles ahead of the other and would've finished in seconds) as well as cancelling races as one team gained momentum, these are all contributing factors to the Oracle win that they will not admit happened. It wasn't just some miracle "Beast Mode" system. Yes, the Kiwi's made mistakes, ETNZ recognize that and have a new approach, and yes, Oracle won...but remember...so did Lance Armstrong.

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by Andy Rice at Yachting World

--

 

On this occasion their timing seems good, yet its hard to imagine that pedal power by itself is going to be the killer app. What it does suggest, however, is that the Kiwis continue to be the bravest and most experimental innovators in the Cup world.

 

Strength and power have always been important in the Cup, says Giles Scott of BAR. But now its more about fitness. The fitter we are, the faster the boat will go around the track.

 

 

http://www.yachtingworld.com/americas-cup-2/andy-rice-americas-cup-pedal-power-104805

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Ever since then, the PR campaign has been in full swing trying to make everyone forget the fact that Oracle were caught cheating, yes, cheating, there is no other spin on it, and given all the other contributing factors (ending a race near the finish as one team was literally miles ahead of the other and would've finished in seconds) as well as cancelling races as one team gained momentum, these are all contributing factors to the Oracle win that they will not admit happened. It wasn't just some miracle "Beast Mode" system. Yes, the Kiwi's made mistakes, ETNZ recognize that and have a new approach, and yes, Oracle won...but remember...so did Lance Armstrong.

Clarkey, get over it. There lots of classes that dont allow shortening of courses in championships, just let the time limit expire. The cheating was done in another class by a few underlings (including a Kiwi). A bit like if the NZ Sevens team were caught cheating and then penalising the All Blacks. I wonder if you have ever sailed in a race at all.

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Ever since then, the PR campaign has been in full swing trying to make everyone forget the fact that Oracle were caught cheating, yes, cheating, there is no other spin on it, and given all the other contributing factors (ending a race near the finish as one team was literally miles ahead of the other and would've finished in seconds) as well as cancelling races as one team gained momentum, these are all contributing factors to the Oracle win that they will not admit happened. It wasn't just some miracle "Beast Mode" system. Yes, the Kiwi's made mistakes, ETNZ recognize that and have a new approach, and yes, Oracle won...but remember...so did Lance Armstrong.

Clarkey, get over it. There lots of classes that dont allow shortening of courses in championships, just let the time limit expire. The cheating was done in another class by a few underlings (including a Kiwi). A bit like if the NZ Sevens team were caught cheating and then penalising the All Blacks. I wonder if you have ever sailed in a race at all.

 

 

5lbs of led installed by a KIWI of all people in the JV races and they still talk about it as if they found a jet ski hidden in the hull of the 72.

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5lbs of led installed by a KIWI of all people in the JV races and they still talk about it as if they found a jet ski hidden in the hull of the 72.

 

In your local vernacular, OR has form and conviction for cheating.

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When training in Bda for the LV how long does it take for OR, BAR Art,... to shag their grinders? Whilst TNZ can test for longer, as their peddlers are not at the absolute limit all the time.

 

TNZ could get longer and more productive training hours in the AC50's than the other teams.

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When training in Bda for the LV how long does it take for OR, BAR Art,... to shag their grinders? Whilst TNZ can test for longer, as their peddlers are not at the absolute limit all the time.

 

TNZ could get longer and more productive training hours in the AC50's than the other teams.

 

 

OR and others are cycling grinders out really regularly. i suspect even ETNZ are "cycling" people in an out also during a training day.

pays to have depth. i suspect that even Ashby will do a fair bit of driving in practise to have a B helm.

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^^ Except that the bastards involved fitted up to take the wrap got their asses canned. They are GONE.

 

Fixed it for you. 8-)

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I believe you will store 3.0l of oil if the accumulator total volume is constant (and is not isolated): gas volume at 350bar is 350/120*4.5l=1.5l so 4.5-1.5=3.0l of oil has to enter the accumulator. Which translate into 60kJ according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isothermal_process#Calculation_of_work.

If you consider 4 grinders producing 300W each that's 50seconds of grinding to recharge. You probably should get something similar for the non grinding time if you discharge the accumulator.

 

How much will one have to adjust that 50 seconds grinding time to make allowance for loss and inefficiency?

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There's a piece somewhere on a LRBAR related STEM site that says the 4 grinders (arms, obviously) can sustain 1200W. Didn't say for how long.

 

Also included a very-basic diagram of the oil flow, for the foil canting-ram and for when they re-direct to winches.

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5lbs of led installed by a KIWI of all people in the JV races and they still talk about it as if they found a jet ski hidden in the hull of the 72.

 

In your local vernacular, OR has form and conviction for cheating.

 

None of those that were involved with that situation were on the team that won the Americas Cup , you know the greatest comeback in the history of sport :)

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There's a piece somewhere on a LRBAR related STEM site that says the 4 grinders (arms, obviously) can sustain 1200W. Didn't say for how long.

 

Also included a very-basic diagram of the oil flow, for the foil canting-ram and for when they re-direct to winches.

I don't know about 'sustain', maybe peak. Sustain implies forever.

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When training in Bda for the LV how long does it take for OR, BAR Art,... to shag their grinders? Whilst TNZ can test for longer, as their peddlers are not at the absolute limit all the time.

 

TNZ could get longer and more productive training hours in the AC50's than the other teams.

Likely that every team will have an electric hydraulic boosting system to make it possible for them to stay out training all day.

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When training in Bda for the LV how long does it take for OR, BAR Art,... to shag their grinders? Whilst TNZ can test for longer, as their peddlers are not at the absolute limit all the time.

 

TNZ could get longer and more productive training hours in the AC50's than the other teams.

Likely that every team will have an electric hydraulic boosting system to make it possible for them to stay out training all day.

 

Wouldn't they want to train to better utilise the power generated by their grinders, rather than an alternative power source?

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Anyone know the spend difference in budget between TNZ and Oracle? Want to know how much more Oracle are spending and have for development? Key factor IMO

 

Oracle is on a limited budget in this cycle compared to AC34. Notably they have only built a single boat.

 

Spending more than ETNZ? Obviously. Figures? Everyone exaggerates.

 

 

 

this whole circus was supposed to be about lowering costs

 

ACWS is supposed to increase sponsor value rather than decrease costs.

 

 

Remember the 72, 62, 50 reduction and the OD bullshit?

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Strength and power have always been important in the Cup, says Giles Scott of BAR. But now its more about fitness. The fitter we are, the faster the boat will go around the track.

 

 

 

 

No denying that. But a better motive power, I'd suggest will trump their improved fitness. Legs Vs arms maybe?

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Is one of those photos of their T boat, with those rudder gantries?

 

Two are of the T boat (photos 3 and 4). Quite happy to show the foil on the latest shot.

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Is one of those photos of their T boat, with those rudder gantries?

 

There's a real mix of pics there. Aotearoa NZ with two different rigs, plus the T boat.

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Will the increased grinder power allow ETNZ to go for a greater crabbing leeway setup so that they can alight the hulls more with the apparent wind and reduce windage? That could boost speed significantly.

 

A little dangerous if hulls hit the water (so reliable foiling essential) and would probably need to be able to quickly yaw the foil around during maneuvering so that the foils don't load up against each other (which would be hard with 1-200kg drag 1-2m inboard of the foil casing). Or perhaps just lift up closer to the surface during manoeuvres and lift the daggerboard lateral area clear.

 

Something to watch for in videos

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^^ Except that the bastards involved fitted up to take the wrap got their asses canned. They are GONE.

 

Fixed it for you. 8-)

 

 

Drum roll ...... rim shot .......Thenk you!

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