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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

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trickle down

1,124 posts in this topic

Thanks, Macca, I appreciate your post. My point was not that there were no risks or issues but that they could be managed using common sense and the RRS in racing.

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at http://www.sailing.org/news/41427.php

--

They then turned attention to the long-term ISAF Events Strategy reviewing the IOC Agenda 2020 recommendations. The committee focused on the format and qualification system for Tokyo 2020. In advance of the Events Committee meeting, the Equipment Committee put forward a recommendation on the future of the Nacra 17. The Events Committee endorsed their recommendation to evolve the Nacra 17 into a foiling multihull for Tokyo 2020.

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That is, maybe, the ultimate "trickle down" from 34...

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So does that mean bastardize the existing Nacra 17, or begin again for a foiling specific design for the Olympics?

Why would they not just run a competition based around some specs as they 'normally do'?

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I think ISAF are going to just trust Nacra to update the boat. It falls apart now, so I can only imagine how bad it will be when they try to make it foil...

 

Designing is fine, M&M know what they are doing. But the build quality is literally the worst I have ever seen on a production boat.

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^ Is Paul Cayard involved then?

Poor Paul, he will never be able to live down all that happened to AR in their first visit to "The Show".

While his horrible management technique showed through, put the blame where it belongs, Juan K was pretty visible, up and until the first wing collapse and when Big Red emerged from the shed.

I couldn't understand why the man with his name on the design wasn't around for the initial structural tests.TH stated they screwed up the setup on the first tow test resulting in the fateful beam failure which plagued AR and that "boat" all the way too the end. I will always beleive that whole screwup is on Juan K.

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^ You got the point then...

 

Design or construction? Either way a manager has to manage, take responsibility when others can't, too close, too invested etc.

 

And before the event, not after - like I.safetyM.

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^ You got the point then...

 

Design or construction? Either way a manager has to manage, take responsibility when others can't, too close, too invested etc.

 

And before the event, not after - like I.safetyM.

Don't get me wrong PC has plenty of responsibilty over the whole fiasco. I have been involved in "break-through" cutting edge boat development programs and never have I seen a designer and builder (King) so hands off when it came to presenting the boat for testing. The designer and builder practically owned the boat until it passed engineering and structural testing, at least that is my experience. They didn't trust us not to go out and break it before they said "go".

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in ESS news

--

 

With just over three weeks until the start of the Extreme Sailing Series™ 2015 season finale on Sydney Harbour, a local wildcard entry of Aussie sailors is beginning an intensive training build-up to try and spring a surprise on some of the best multihull sailors in the world.

 

While much of the focus will be on Leigh McMillan and his impressive crew on The Wave Muscat, as McMillan tries to close out an unprecedented third Extreme Sailing Series championship, local eyes will be on Katie Spithill and her newcomers on board 33 South Racing.

Match racing champion Spithill, who started sailing at Elvina Bay in Pittwater and is sister to America’s Cup-winning skipper James, will be the only female skipper in the high-octane Extreme Sailing Series fleet.

 

http://www.extremesailingseries.com/news/view/australian-crew-gets-ready-to-go-extreme-sailing-on-sydney-harbour

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Reminds me of the classic Hobie ad: "The Cat that Flies!"

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Great shot for sure, hope they survived that!

 

...and that's the machine they have been given the go ahead to hot-rod into a ff'er for 2020?

from world sailing

 

12219410_10153891110990757_2559786654237

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I think the 2020 boats will be fully flying, .....if Nacra can make a better boat than the present crap. But I love the shot !

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--

Foiling cats - Dr Martin Fischer talks about the design of the GC32

 

With the Extreme Sailing Series moving to the hydro-foiling GC32 catamaran in 2016, German naval architect and GC32 designer Martin Fischer talks through the technicalities of how these unbelievably fast rocketships rise up out of the water and fly across the surface.

 

http://www.mysailing.com.au/boats/foiling-cats-dr-martin-fischer-talks-about-the-design-of-the-gc32

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Thanks, SR. I wish we could read an interview of Mr. Fischer talking shop with Tom Speer when they didn't know they were being recorded. Might get some more technical stuff then. But something is better than nothing.

Do you remember the original foils the 32 had? Didn't want to foil back then......

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Yes, with Tom Speer it's good to have a transcript to read, so you can re-read it several times. :)

 

Said Hi to him recently, he'll be back in Bermuda in December for a spell.

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Those are some serious, musclebound wands! I guess because they're moving the whole foil and not a flap. Thanks-hadn't seen most of those pictures.

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What a drag! Good catch S.........

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From the FP

 

NatCat2

nat-2-cat-1024x795.jpg

 

repeats the common and obviously false 'first' nonsense, also mentions that - cats effectively banned after first race - which some here have strongly disputed.

 

cool looking boat though - the pod obviously inspired OTUSA

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--

Already established as an exciting fleet racing circuit that is rapidly expanding its horizons, the M32 cat is now the weapon of choice for the World Match Racing Tour. Matthew Sheahan sailed with reigning M32 champion and former WMRT winner Taylor Canfield to find out why this cat is so different and why it might provide the missing link between between both the match racing circuit and the America’s Cup and between amateur and pro sailors.

http://www.yachtingworld.com/video/boat-test-videos/video-on-test-the-m32-cat-and-why-you-should-try-one-69256

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160315_ESS_OmanAir_024.JPG

Extreme Sailing Series™ Act 1, Muscat standings after Day 2, 9 races (17.03.16)


Position / Team / Points

1st Oman Air (OMA) Morgan Larson, Pete Greenhalgh, James Wierzbowski, Ed Smyth, Nasser Al Mashari 102 points.
2nd SAP Extreme Sailing Team (DEN) Jes Gram-Hansen, Rasmus Køstner, Mads Emil Stephensen, Pierluigi De Felice, Renato Conde 88 points.
3rd Red Bull Sailing Team (AUT) Roman Hagara, Hans Peter Steinacher, Stewart Dodson, Adam Piggott, Brad Farrand 84 points.
4th Land Rover BAR Academy (GBR) Bleddyn Môn, Leigh McMillan, Ed Powys, Adam Kay, Neil Hunter 78 points.
5th Alinghi (SUI) Ernesto Bertarelli, Arnaud Psarofaghis, Nicolas Charbonnier, Nils Frei, Yves Detrey 78 points.
6th CHINA One (CHN) Taylor Canfield, Chris Steele, Shane Diviney, Hayden Goodrick, Luke Payne 62 points.
7th Team Turx (TUR) Edhem Dirvana, Stevie Morrison, Cem Gözen, Alister Richardson, Anıl Berk Baki 61 points.
8th Sail Portugal (POR) Diogo Cayolla, Bernardo Freitas, Javier de la Plaza, Luís Brito, Winston Macfarlane 54 points.

- See more at: http://www.extremesailingseries.com/

 

160316_ESS_Muscat_017.JPG

 

160316_ESS_Muscat_038.JPG

 

160315_ESS_OmanAir_039.JPG

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So Morgan Larson is still winning? And he doesn't work for EB anymore? And he still isn't on an AC team????

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From the FP

 

NatCat2

nat-2-cat-1024x795.jpg

 

repeats the common and obviously false 'first' nonsense, also mentions that - cats effectively banned after first race - which some here have strongly disputed.

 

cool looking boat though - the pod obviously inspired OTUSA

 

Further to ^

 

Here's the introduction to a video from a series filmed in the Herreshoff Marine Museum, by some fairly well informed guys from Off Center Harbour.Com

 

The catamaran in our latest video was so fast and extreme that it was disqualified after winning the New York Yacht Club’s Centennial Regatta, and club officials quickly banned cats from future “legitimate” racing.
Sound familiar? But wait: This was 140 years ago, in 1876!

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Just to say it again - yes the claim that cats were banned is completely and utterly wrong. It's a stubborn myth that some people hate to see disproven, apparently because they love to feel that multis were discriminated against by some big bad establishment. However the fact, as clearly demonstrated by reports of the day in the NY Times, Brooklyn Daily Eagle and other newspapers, is that after Amaryllis' first race cats were treated like every other type in NY, or a bit more favourably in some ways.

 

Amaryllis was DSQ'd from that first race and given a special prize. First prize then went to Jacob Schmidt (aka Jack Smith), an immigrant saloon keeper, hat maker and sandbagger sailor - not exactly a member of the "establishment" and probably less 'establishment' than Nat was. And the NY "establishment" of the era was arguably the most progressive and inventive bunch of sailors ever seen in the world. In the space of a few decades they basically did things like introduce the Herreshoff (and Fearon) cats, invented ocean racing, introduced the "skimming dish" hull, introduced the first rating rule, took part in the first international races in medium size, small and big yachts, the first international races in small centreboarders, the first Bermudan rig in major racing, the racing scow, etc etc etc. Just like many of their British contemporaries, many of them were among the leading inventors and industrialists of their day. To class them as the sort of people who would ban cats is completely wrong.

 

Cats were then raced for several years in New York in a separate class, just as almost all other types were raced in separate classed divided by rig, type and length. Cats were owned by powerful people like the commodore of the New Jersey YC and the rear commodore of the Boston YC. The founder of the New York YC and the America syndicate, John C Stevens, had owned the cat Double Trouble decades before as well. A cat was also allowed to race with the New York YC itself, but it performed poorly. The "open' cats didn't race with the monos but that was simply because in those days each type normally raced by itself - sloops raced sloops, catboats raced catboats, schooners raced schooners - there were almost no "all in" events and perhaps none at all.

 

Cats also raced with the New Orleans YC and places like Salt Lake City. A few years later the first cat in Sydney, Flying Fish, was also owned by a club commodore, in the form of Mark Foy, famous for fostering the 18 Foot Skiffs. Flying Fish regularly raced with the Sydney Flying Squadron, where (despite myths about her speed) she was rated about 2 minutes slower than the 22 Foot "skiffs" and the Raters.

 

Yes, LF Herreshoff wrote one sentence that said that cats were banned and many people have since relied on that as the only evidence that the ban occurred - however the indisputable fact is that there was no such ban, and this is completely and utterly proven without doubt by the records of the time which are now available through internet archives. The on-line archives of the Mystic Seaport Museum also show without the slightest doubt that LFH knew that cats were not banned, because his own letters on the archives include passages about their racing and saying that Nat was happy with the way the cats were treated. Why he made that mistake is a mystery, but the fact is that he was wrong - as his own words show.

 

The Mystic Seaport letters also show that LFH wrote that he thought that cats were slower overall than monos of the same length, and that Nat wrote that the days of the multihull were over once outboards arrived and that cats should not have cabins. So no one can really claim that the Herreshoffs were always infallible - they got it wrong at times like everyone else.

 

It's understandable that the myth was believed in the days when people couldn't check up on the facts on the internet, but this is 2016 and there's no excuse for believing it now. All people have to do is to go to something like the Brooklyn Daily Eagle archives, type in catamaran, and read the facts in the papers of the day.

 

As a cat owner I really wish this myth could be killed once and for all, because it's given some multi sailors a chip on the shoulder that has probably done more to hold back the cause of multihull sailing than any so-called discrimination by monohullers ever did.

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So cats couldn't race with monohulls? Where did that great story about one of Nats cats beating a whole fleet of monos come from-seems like it was an old newspaper or magazine account? Is it possible that cats raced with monos until they proved so fast that they were banned(from racing with monos) but allowed to race in their own class?

And about 20 years after this there was the story of the unbeaten Dominion-the first tunnel hulled scow in 1898. And the last one until the 1960's........

Funny how these mostly very fast boats sort of petered out without being really banned..... If they weren't banned or in some way discriminated against why weren't more built? Just curious.....

 

v7sdb8.jpg

 

34s2mar.jpg

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The story about Nat racing a whole fleet of monos referred to the occasion when Nat's Amaryllis raced a whole fleet of monos in the Centennial Regatta and was DSQ'd but given a special prize, as noted above.

 

The cats were raced as a class because in the late 19th century people didn't race widely different types against each other very often because they knew it would be a crapshoot depending on which type was favoured by the weather - it was written into the British rules that boats of different rig should not race each other, for example. As anyone who cares to check will see, and as already noted, they didn't even normally race sloops against catboats even though many boats could swap from one rig to the other. When they were that careful to race similar boats together it would have been ludicrous to race a cat against a cabin boat or against a sandbagger, which was still basically a working boat as demonstrated by the fact that sources such as Schoettle state that some famous sandbaggers returned to life as oyster boats, and by official documents such as the US government census on boatbuilding that Chappelle referred to.

 

Why did they die out? There's not much information about that, although Nat wrote to Francis in the early 1900s that multihulls were of no interest once outboards arrived since people who wanted to go fast would get motors - the letter is on the Mystic Seaport site. Francis wrote that they were wet, and slow in light airs. I think Nat may have noted to Francis that they also required expert handling. Both Francis and Nat could have had their own cats but from about the 1880s Nat gave them up himself and Francis never got one.

 

To some extent the reason why the 19th century cats died out is a mystery but there is simply not a shred of evidence that they suffered negative discrimination in any way after that first race - in fact in some regattas they got favourable treatment in terms of prize money etc. As noted above, several powerful members of YCs, including commodores and rear-commodores, were into cats so they represented a powerful and affluent lobby group; they weren't outlaws and they were not treated as such.

 

Around the same time the canoes arrived in NY. They were not normally allowed in the same regattas as the cats and big monos - they just raced as a class. If racing as a class was fatal to cats why didn't it kill the canoes? The Raters, scows and knockabouts of later years also normally raced in separate classes and it didn't kill them.

 

The fact that the cats were the fastest things around didn't mean that they would be popular - in the same way, Raters and Sandbaggers died out in favour of slower knockabouts, schooners were more popular than the faster big sloops. The Canoes of around the same era crashed in popularity when they became faster and more extreme. There's a long history of speed machines dying out.

 

Anyone who believes that the 19th century cats died out because of prejudice can just go out and find some contemporary evidence - a lot was written about them so it shouldn't be hard to find if it existed. Why don't you do some research about, for example, what Dominion's own creator said about her? Sure, not everyone liked cats but so what - not every cat sailor likes monos, not every kiter likes windsurfers.

 

Finally, even if the NY clubs had banned cats, it's silly that some people seem to assume that would have stopped them becoming popular in Cowes, Sydney, the Alster, Auckland or other areas - the New York clubs didn't rule the sailing world.

 

The facts are true, pure and simple - there was no cat ban in New York in the 19th century.

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^ :lol:

 

First you mis-frame the question, 'prove' it to your own satisfaction and finally state it as 'pure and simple truth'

 

Semantics.

 

Entered, won, no glory - that's simple

 

No more open races, involving multis*, by the 'oh so progressive' YC and AC trustees- that's simple

 

No wonder poor Mr. NH was 'confused' - and others still are it seems.

 

 

 

*until SDYC refused a challenge that was in the best tradition of the DOG, until forced by the courts to accept - and got desperate

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I didn't reframe the question. For one, there was no question about whether cats wete banned n the post i replied to! The fact is that open races barely existed at the time, just as they are rare today in sailing - the cats dont race kites and boards very often now.

The fact is that cats were not banned from regular racing as was claimed. Yes amaryllis was disqualified from one race as already said, however that has to be put in perspective - it was only one race and after that they were well treated Nat was not confused - he got cat class racing which was what he wanted to get.

By the way, the. Centennial regatta was not run by the NYYC. It's a minor point apart from the fact that it shows the source of the quote is not accurate.

On previous posts I've given names, dates and sources (NY Times etc) that prove that cats were not banned. A search for amayllis or fearon will bring them up and show how clear the truth is. Cats were mot banned from legitimate races; they were given legitimate races like other types were.

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No one said they invented sailing. The ny guys did however kick off transatlantic racing, international racing (America , Sappho , canoes, the seawanhaka cup for small yachts etc) and other innovations. I'm not a seppo, don't really like the NYYC or the current us scene - but the reality is that NYC sailors of the time were pioneers in many ways

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^

I don't think you can see the irony of what you post.

 

There was a lot of time, effort, money and bragging rights tied up in having the 'fastest boat' around.

An American copied a design perfected over thousands of years in the Pacific but essentially unknown to the US sailor up 'til then.

There was an open race - perhaps another one of the 'progressive ideas' you are so proud to point out were prevealent at the time in NY, the boat was entered and raced.

 

And the result?

 

Was the newly proven better, or at least faster, type (even in it's first locally designed and built version) hailed, adopted, invested in, improved upon and allowed to race for the most coveted prizes and to be recognised as 'Club Champion'?

Or was it denied it's legitimate win in that race, fobbed off with a 'special prize' and relegated to racing only with the other cats, of which there were zero at the time?

And did the 'open competition' format thrive and spread because it had so succesfully thrown up innovative ideas and improved design?

You yourself point out that that pattern, snobbery and preference for the status quo, continues to this day in most yacht clubs and races.

 

You understand the concept of an 'effective ban' don't you? Like an 'effective dismissal'?

 

I.e. It amounts to the same thing, in all but name - and potential for centuries of spin of course! :)

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The truth is that in the race that Amaryllis won, the "bragging right" was to see who had the fastest open boat developed from an oyster boat. The boats she was racing were sort of similar to the Mullet Boat class of Auckland harbour. Amaryllis was as out of place in that event as a Tornado would be in a Mullet Boat race. Yes, the committee had not specified any class rules, because it was at the dawn of the sport. No one had enough experience to know that they were necessary.

 

Sure, from our perspective DSQing Amaryllis was the wrong thing to do, but we have the advantage of 150 years of experience in running sailing races. Modern classes like Moths, 12' Skiffies and shorthanded multihull racers have been banning new designs recently - why blame the NY guys for doing basically the same thing?

 

Yes, the faster type WAS allowed to race and WAS allowed to win its "championship" - among other similar boats. The initial claim that cats were banned from future 'legitimate' racing is wrong. For a start, in New York at the time there was no official body to determine what was a "legitimate" race or not - many of the biggest races of the day were match races on terms arrived at by boat owners, with no club involved.

 

But many of the "legitimate" clubs (not that there was any other sort) held races for cats just like any other type. In the races held by the Brooklyn Yacht Club, for example, the catamaran class (Class H) was as legitimate as Class G (cat rigged boats) or Class D (cabin sloops, 35 to 45 feet LWL) or Class B (Schooners under 75 ft LWL), for example. In the Long Island YC's 1879 annual regatta, the catamaran class was just as legitimate as the other classes - cabin sloops, open sloops and catboats. In the New York Bay Regatta for open boats in 1878, the class for catamarans was just as legitimate as the class for 23 to 26 foot monos, or the class for 20 to 23 foot monos.

 

The New Yorkers, like other sailors, rarely had "open competitions" because they knew that you didn't get good racing when the designs were too different. That is why (as already noted) they had classes divided by rigs, even when the hulls were very similar and often could set both sloop and cat rigs. So no, the "open competition format" did not thrive and spread. What thrived and spread was separate classes for separate designs - sandbaggers, Raters, knockabouts, sharpies, dories, schooners, sloops, etc.

 

Yes, Amaryllis had no rival for a short time, but that just means that the first "western" cat was in the same situation as the first sailing canoe (the fastest-growing type at the time), the first windsurfer, first offshore cat, and many other innovative boats - it had to wait a short time to get a proper race. That's what normally happens when a completely new type arrives on the yachting scene.

 

The plain and simple fact is that the cats were not thrown out of all legitimate races at all - they were given their own class just like other types of boat were.

 

And yes, double hulled canoes had been around for eons before Amaryllis, and the Brits had developed cats many years earlier than the Americans too. Amaryllis wasn't even the first cat around New York. But she was the first one to show herself in yacht racing.

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39.7 kts: new GC32 record at Garda. 9 boats racing, Cammas winning, see report(s) over at catsailingnews. Worrisome number of sailors falling overboard. Wondering if there isn't some duplication with the ESS, although you can't really race more than 10 of these things together

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Amazing figure for such a small cat with a soft sail. Do we have the max of an AC45 ? I guess it is below.

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Amazing figure for such a small cat with a soft sail. Do we have the max of an AC45 ? I guess it is below.

I don't know about standard AC 45's but the new turbos, with AC50 beams and wings, have allegedly achieved 48-49 knots. I heard that they seem to have hit a bit of a wall at those speeds.

 

Give or take, we have about 30 knots for an A Class (18'), 40 for the GS32 (32') and 50 for the AC boats (50'). Who would have thought this 5 years ago?

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It is a shame that the GC32 Great Cup Series isn't streamed on the internet. The ACWS and ESS are both jokes for watching real foiling cat racing.

Short stadium courses in little wind just isn't what these boats are about.

At least the GC is sailed in venues suited for foiling with a boat designed to fly.

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Amazing figure for such a small cat with a soft sail. Do we have the max of an AC45 ? I guess it is below.

I don't know about standard AC 45's but the new turbos, with AC50 beams and wings, have allegedly achieved 48-49 knots. I heard that they seem to have hit a bit of a wall at those speeds.

 

Give or take, we have about 30 knots for an A Class (18'), 40 for the GS32 (32') and 50 for the AC boats (50'). Who would have thought this 5 years ago?

 

Right, I was thinking today that we are lucky to witness one a the most amazing revolution in sailing, I don't think any generation before or after has or will have that chance.

What is strange is the the As top around 30 kts with 4 foils while the bigger FP and Nacra do about the same with 3 foils. The 4 points solution may still be an option for bigger cats.

It is a shame that the GC32 Great Cup Series isn't streamed on the internet. The ACWS and ESS are both jokes for watching real foiling cat racing.

Short stadium courses in little wind just isn't what these boats are about.

At least the GC is sailed in venues suited for foiling with a boat designed to fly.

+ 1 I could not agree more.

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It is a shame that the GC32 Great Cup Series isn't streamed on the internet. The ACWS and ESS are both jokes for watching real foiling cat racing.

Short stadium courses in little wind just isn't what these boats are about.

At least the GC is sailed in venues suited for foiling with a boat designed to fly.

 

You're right! It has always seemed ridiculous to me that the premier foiler of our time needs something like 15 kts of wind to foil. The technology exists to bring that down a lot- to 4-6 knots of wind. If they insist on going to these light air venues they should invest in light air foils(and rig mods if required). People expect to see these things foiling! The Quant 23 foiling keelboat foils in 5knots or so.

Look where these guys are sitting!

 

2ry1rt4.jpg

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Amazing figure for such a small cat with a soft sail. Do we have the max of an AC45 ? I guess it is below.

I don't know about standard AC 45's but the new turbos, with AC50 beams and wings, have allegedly achieved 48-49 knots. I heard that they seem to have hit a bit of a wall at those speeds.

 

Give or take, we have about 30 knots for an A Class (18'), 40 for the GS32 (32') and 50 for the AC boats (50'). Who would have thought this 5 years ago?

 

Right, I was thinking today that we are lucky to witness one a the most amazing revolution in sailing, I don't think any generation before or after has or will have that chance.

It is amazing, but I don't think it is any more amazing than when we saw the shift to apparent wind sailing in dinghies in the early/mid 1990's. Cats were so on the peripheries of sailing that for most, they hadn't come across it at all, while those who were sailing apparent wind dinghies were also on the very outer edge of the sport, or Australian! I think for me that was the biggest shift of all, because it needed a whole new way of thinking. Tactics changed so dramatically. Although we are seeing a quantum leap in speeds, the tactics remain the same.

 

However, we are still talking about something very special and it probably is a pointless discussion whether it is the biggest revolution or not. It is what it is. Having said that, consider this. When I started foiling in Moths (2007), there was a league table for those who made the 20 knot club. I think my first entry into the club was in about 10th place with a speed of 21.8 knots. I can assure everybody that felt terrifying and out of control. Now 22 knots on a foiler seems almost pedestrian. Remarkable.

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I suspect that for most on this forum - this video will not be a revelation. But for me at least, the design (and build) competition taking place in A class right now is second to none.

 

This boat - thx catsailingnews - has been labeled "the coolest production boat ever made". Who am I to argue?

 

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On catsailingnews, report by Arno Terra: bow down trim & other interesting bits

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Very:

 

"The topriders report to sail with very little lift on their boards, just 20 mm in the slider. That way they exploit the 'drag bucket'.

 

The drag bucket is the range in which the foil has the lowest drag. Drag is therefore not linear, but between 1 and 2 degrees you have a low drag zone. The DNA board has even a more aggressive drag bucket and that's why people keep the rake at about about (plus or minus a half degree) 1,3 degrees, the bottom of the drag bucket.

 

The topriders do not try to maximize lift, but use the lower drag to maximize speed as lift increases not lineair but squared . Once they are up, the boards are still in low drag position and because the rudders keep the nose down, there is no drag bump and boat keeps accelerating."

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So - if you say that there is no rake adjustment from floating mode through to high speed bow down foiling - then big lift on the rudders is simply to reduce the main foil aoa. IIUC.

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^^ That is the first reflexion I has, but AC boats can't change the rudder foil on the water can change their main foil AOA.

So, either they still try to decrease their AOA on the water, either they don't want their boat to go too high on the water while foiling, mainly upwind.

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I think there is some misunderstanding in what is going on with the A's and how we set up the boards. I have 3 marks on my boat (it was Bundy's boat until 2 weeks ago) that show the position to have the slider for different conditions. The most forward position is used for floating mode. Next, there is a position when you are close to or are actually upwind foiling and finally, there is a position where you are getting the most lift which is used for downhill. What I believe that Arno is correctly saying is that we no longer simply try to get as much lift as possible in order to fly. Now we are focused on using as little AoA as possible and still foil. It's a very careful balancing act. Just like with the Moth, downwind, the higher you foil, the faster you go because you have less foil in the water. However, to fly higheris often achieved by more lift from the foil and that equals more drag. So, in general, the more AoA, the easier it is to foil overall (until you have too much), but the slower it is.

 

I should add that Bundy is sailing with a system that allows him to change the rudder foil AoA on the water by simply twisting the tiller bar. It's not really intended to be used during races, unless there is a significant change in position, but it does allow you to tune the foils easily for the conditions.

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So - if you say that there is no rake adjustment from floating mode through to high speed bow down foiling - then big lift on the rudders is simply to reduce the main foil aoa. IIUC.

I can understand this on a "manpower limited" A - but not on an AC boat, where board rake adjustment shouldn't be an issue

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This is an incredible development -not only is the "board" inflatable the twinfoils are bi-directional!

 

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^ There were several of those blasting around in the (euro) foil week video as well...

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No joke if you want a foiling proa. The fact that a bi-directional foil works so well is significant- despite your uninformed BS......

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you kite foil much doug? no.

 

I recon you kite foil as much as I design AC wining foils.

 

please define work so well? compared to what? certainly nothing that gets around a race course,certainly not compared to any recreational kite foil

 

therefore you commenting on whether that POS kite foil is a decent for use on a foiling proa is utterly irrelevant,

 

to use your own words your opinion on this is 'uninformed Bullshit'

 

I know you cop a hard time on this forum, I am sorry for that.

 

but straight up claiming I am uninformed where kite foils is concerned says more about you than anything else, you are not the fuckin oracle, you know what you know, I know what I know, others know other things, maybe if you stopped trying to be ALL knowing just because its a foil people might cut you some slack.

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What the captain means to say... it looks draggy. The inflatable board is neat, a natural follow on, none of this appears attributable to AC foiling cats but hey why not?

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you kite foil much doug? no.

 

I recon you kite foil as much as I design AC wining foils.

 

please define work so well? compared to what? certainly nothing that gets around a race course,certainly not compared to any recreational kite foil

 

therefore you commenting on whether that POS kite foil is a decent for use on a foiling proa is utterly irrelevant,

 

to use your own words your opinion on this is 'uninformed Bullshit'

 

I know you cop a hard time on this forum, I am sorry for that.

 

but straight up claiming I am uninformed where kite foils is concerned says more about you than anything else, you are not the fuckin oracle, you know what you know, I know what I know, others know other things, maybe if you stopped trying to be ALL knowing just because its a foil people might cut you some slack.

 

I'm sick of anonymous internet posters who knock new tech just for the hell of it. I wasn't considering the performance of the new foil set vs the standard configuration-only that in the video it appears to work which is significant for a bi-directional foil. The only other bi-directional foils I've seen are Tom Speers proa foils.

I apologize for my choice of words and for not being more clear.

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equally I am sick of you taking a non relevant product ( a kite foil) applying performance characteristics to it from an alternate application and then getting upset because someone with fewer posts than you calls you on it.

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+1

 

Jal - your reasoning is 100% spot on - and nicely put.

 

Remember - if you took away douGh boY's reposts of his own monstrosities, the endless requotes of Speer, Morelli & Melvin, Fischer et al etc. etc.(all of which are valid - we just don't need thousands of reminders) then his post count would be about 17, give or take......

 

 

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but we would like some consistent wind on the course.... great looking mobile wind shadow in the back ground

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I am in Hamburg currently, and guest-sailed yesterday. Not too much extra fun w/o foiling (except from being on such a boat, which is lots of fun in itself).
More wind today, but not too much foiling either. These cats are too heavy to do it consistently in light or fickle wind.

Never mind, the accessability and overall set-up of the event is - again - second to none.

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wow... Ultra fast from 1 kts...

 

other than marketing spin, what does that even mean? quantify it maybe?

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Sounds like they're claiming foiling from one knot with their code zero. A lot of companies are looking a light air foiling but prior to this the lowest claim, that I know of, was the Whisper at 4 knots of wind to start foiling.....

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I did not read the claim that they will foil at one knot, just that they will be fast at one knot, and want to foil earlier than the others.

 

"We want foil earlier than any other boat. For light wind we offer an big CodeZero to be ultrafast from 1kts. Double trapezing upwind from 3kts on."

With a Tornado we double trapeze at 12 kts, so it just means that they will have a huge main with reefs

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You're probably right. I hope you are, anyway......

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I have seen foiling kites flying around us at around 5 to 6 kts of wind, I could hardly see them flying at 3 kts, so for a boat it seems even less probable...

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Thanks, TC... I wrote to them to ask why some of the pictures show dual, independent, wands on each hull. Interesting design.

 

 

Clearly not an engineer are you...

 

ClkLdwBWQAAwf2B.jpg

 

VoilAvion0197B.jpg

 

This 'thing' doesn't really belong on this thread either, doubly so considering it's at least 4 year old 'news'

 

13603683_647612922081913_126228241975920

 

top-slide.bg.jpg?2016-07-14-1

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Your second shot shows DUAL, INDEPENDENT, WANDS on each hull! If it's the wrong thread why did YOU post it here?!! Mixed up in your old age, huh?

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Your second shot shows DUAL, INDEPENDENT, WANDS on each hull! If it's the wrong thread why did YOU post it here?!! Mixed up in your old age, huh?

No, the wand pairs go to a single piece of billet aluminum. Not independent at all.

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I think you're right.

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This boat is one of the finest examples of the UptiP foil technology invented in 34 and refined in this design by Martin Fischer. Extraordinary GC32 Tour video:

 

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Yeah, thats really something....

 

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1506051_805320316202425_4503165305706448

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--

(August 15, 2016) Extreme Sailing Series organizers OC Sport have appointed Canadian John Craig as the new Race Director for the global Stadium Racing circuit.

 

A world-renowned International Race Official, Craig was the Principal Race Officer for the 34th Americas Cup that took place in San Francisco, USA as well for the Americas Cup World Series. He also oversaw the development of World Sailings (formerly ISAF) Sailing World Cup and most recently was Race Director for the Red Bull Foiling Generation.

...

http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2016/08/15/new-race-director-extreme-sailing-series/

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