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trickle down

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So I think AC only really added to the acceptance of foiling as a way to go and some of the refinements.

Thank you @Basiliscus and others.  The information gives a good perspective of the trickle down for me.

Will we see more wings in the future? some collapsible versions perhaps?

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5 hours ago, surfsailor said:

Re modern kite foiling, the air chair was the first example I ever saw of the ‘submerged airplane in a stick’ paradigm that is the basis of most of the kite/surf/windsurf foils today. That was on Maui in the late 90s. 

 

Remember seeing the Air Chair at the Boat Show in the Javits Center, '92 or '93. Must confess I didn't think the contraption would work, much less have such a future development

 

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22 hours ago, Xlot said:

 

Remember seeing the Air Chair at the Boat Show in the Javits Center, '92 or '93. Must confess I didn't think the contraption would work, much less have such a future development

 

I heard about it after the strapped guys started bolting them to boards - late 90s. When they told me where they got the foils, I was like 'wait - somebody invented a foiling contraption that you SIT on while being towed behind a ski boat? WTF??!' LOL

Really, really clever - those guys were really thinking out of the box, and way ahead of the curve. There are some more recent versions with a canard set up.

 

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^

Funny.  It's a lot of years since I did any water-skiing but that really sounds like shit!

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Air chair is an interesting toy that I never got very good at, raising and lowering the center of pull (tow rope) is the only elevation control you have and it's pretty tweaky.  Slalom skiing instinct to lean back when in trouble is exactly the wrong response, it sends you airborne, crash land, and with your legs strapped to the chair, you sink until your arms can swim you back up.  Not dangerous, just a little weird.  My buddy could land flips, but said "you have to land on your head a hundred times before you land your first flip".  Yeah... nah.  But a good toy for him since he had back troubles and could no longer handle the huge load of slalom.  When up on the foil, the drag is so low you can hang on with one finger.

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When up on the foil, the drag is so low you can hang on with one finger.

Revealing comment on submerged foils in general - as compared to planing, in this case

 

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Who designed those SuperFoilers? Doug Lord? I've never seen a boat come to a stop so fast without actually hitting something. Looks like they all have a demented 'Herbie' that trips the foil Angle of Attack randomly so they come crashing down abruptly.

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21 minutes ago, Rasputin22 said:

Who designed those SuperFoilers? Doug Lord? I've never seen a boat come to a stop so fast without actually hitting something. Looks like they all have a demented 'Herbie' that trips the foil Angle of Attack randomly so they come crashing down abruptly.

Those boats do need more sorting out but dang - it’s off to a helluva start.

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If Nathan has such a hard time keeping the SF 'in the groove' then what chance does a 'mere mortal' have?  Too contrived for me and I'll take a 40 year old ROLAND 36 over these F1 looking bastards. I keep thinking of a platypus when I look at one. NFSquared. Neither Fish Nor Fowl... Sam Bradford is rolling over in his grave.

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28 minutes ago, Rasputin22 said:

Who designed those SuperFoilers? Doug Lord? I've never seen a boat come to a stop so fast without actually hitting something. Looks like they all have a demented 'Herbie' that trips the foil Angle of Attack randomly so they come crashing down abruptly.

From what I’ve been told, it’s still a bit of a work in progress - very ambitious, maybe too much so in a few areas, but I expect they will get it sorted. I think the potential is amazing. 

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Those seaplane sponsons are a joke! They thought that they would be flying all the time and ditched one of the oldest and more reliable concepts in the history of mankind venturing out on the water, ie a BOW! Steps, chines, and lifting strakes were used and all crammed into about 6 feet or so. 

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1 hour ago, Rasputin22 said:

Who designed those SuperFoilers? 

Er, coupla guys called M&M, IIRC

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56 minutes ago, Rasputin22 said:

Those seaplane sponsons are a joke! They thought that they would be flying all the time and ditched one of the oldest and more reliable concepts in the history of mankind venturing out on the water, ie a BOW! Steps, chines, and lifting strakes were used and all crammed into about 6 feet or so. 

Chopping the front off of things is where all the action is in my world - but it can make things umm a little ‘exciting’!

Having said that, I think the long central hull is designed to do the heavy lifting, bow wise - just like the proposed AC75, which has no amas at all.

 

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Bouyancy from displacement is cheap and can usually be depended on to work. Looks like the SF works as well or better in some conditions with both sponson foils down. That should be a clue that something is not quite right. M&M's new foiling tri is four point foiling I think. 

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What's the idea with the trapezes?

'Cause the crews are used to them? For the spectacle? To match the 18s?

Why not just make it wider and get rid of that extra complexity?

"Pimp my tri!"

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5 hours ago, nav said:

What's the idea with the trapezes?

'Cause the crews are used to them? For the spectacle? To match the 18s?

Why not just make it wider and get rid of that extra complexity?

"Pimp my tri!"

what's the point of grinders on ac50's, just put batteries on them

whats the point of flight control, just put auto ride height

what's the point of lots of things, the superfoilers were made to be a spectacle, the trapeze adds more of an extreme look that makes the public want to watch it.

why don't we just take out the grinders on the ac75, a Lithium ion battery the size of a shoebox could do the same job

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On 26/03/2018 at 11:27 AM, surfsailor said:

Chopping the front off of things is where all the action is in my world - but it can make things umm a little ‘exciting’!

Having said that, I think the long central hull is designed to do the heavy lifting, bow wise - just like the proposed AC75, which has no amas at all.

 

Which is all well and good except that when they drop off the foils they invariably heel to leeward and oops no bow there, complete wipeout! Happens at least once per race to some poor bastard.

Still they are pretty awesome to watch ugly or otherwise, they definitely need to look at the rigging on an AC50 though, that stay noise on the runs has got to be pretty annoying after a while.

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10 hours ago, nav said:

What's the idea with the trapezes?

'Cause the crews are used to them? For the spectacle? To match the 18s?

Why not just make it wider and get rid of that extra complexity?

"Pimp my tri!"

I think the best position to sail a boat from is on trapeze. Most comfy, furthermost from centre line, looks exciting, greater physical challenge.

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On 3/26/2018 at 10:27 AM, Rasputin22 said:

Those seaplane sponsons are a joke! They thought that they would be flying all the time and ditched one of the oldest and more reliable concepts in the history of mankind venturing out on the water, ie a BOW! Steps, chines, and lifting strakes were used and all crammed into about 6 feet or so. 

Right, they got it all wrong with this previous world speed record holder too.

l'hydroptere copy.jpg

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2 hours ago, Boybland said:

Which is all well and good except that when they drop off the foils they invariably heel to leeward and oops no bow there, complete wipeout! Happens at least once per race to some poor bastard.

Still they are pretty awesome to watch ugly or otherwise, they definitely need to look at the rigging on an AC50 though, that stay noise on the runs has got to be pretty annoying after a while.

To me, pitch and roll are two separate issues - pitch directly impacts the lift from the foils, roll not so much. Once they get roll under control, the long center hull should provide a clean recovery from pitch issues (nose diving, for example).

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2 hours ago, Boybland said:

Which is all well and good except that when they drop off the foils they invariably heel to leeward and oops no bow there, complete wipeout! Happens at least once per race to some poor bastard.

Still they are pretty awesome to watch ugly or otherwise, they definitely need to look at the rigging on an AC50 though, that stay noise on the runs has got to be pretty annoying after a while.

i thought that the noise was from the foils?

idk though

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4 hours ago, Groucho Marx said:

Right, they got it all wrong with this previous world speed record holder too.

l'hydroptere copy.jpg

Really wide,  no trapezes (& still looks comfortable) = someone understood the concept :D

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Right Marx, move those sponsons on Hydroptere aft about 25' to even be close to the SF proportions and see what happens at 50 knots! Even then the surface piercing foils of Hydroptere would be far less likely to suddenly cavitate and drop you on your face.

    And I thought you knew a thing or two about foilers. At least you have had a go at it a couple of times and you should not be such a SF fanboy. 

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About that super foiler finish of the last heat.  Which rules were they sailing under?  The blue boat had audio of "nice dial up", while the red one protested them for not holding their course.  Could be the refs had money on the blue boat, or they were using rules like the AC where you hunt the other guy.

 

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2 hours ago, david r said:

About that super foiler finish of the last heat.  Which rules were they sailing under?  The blue boat had audio of "nice dial up", while the red one protested them for not holding their course.  Could be the refs had money on the blue boat, or they were using rules like the AC where you hunt the other guy.

 

it was pretty insignificant in the scheme of things in the end. euroflex wouldn't of been overtaken by another boat if they copped the penalty so the results would stand

as for the call itself, i have been on an umpires boat and we sure didn't have audio. there is usually only one so it could of been monitering he other boats or just not seeing the dial down

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Thanks for responding.  I looks like ac type rules also are trickling into fleet racing if it's now ok to aim at the other boats as long as you don't get caught.

I don't see why the blue boat did not just hold his course.  He had everything to loose with that dial up. The third boat (pavement) boat was only 37 seconds behind, and if they got passed by the third boat whilst doing a penalty turn, they would not win the series.

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I was very involved in windsurfing when it hit its big growth spurt as the short boards and fully battened sails emerged. The sport went from teak booms and roto molded pig shaped boards to Carbon FIber, Kevlar/Mylar, fully planing in no time at all and it was an exciting era. The 'gear race' got pretty out of hand resulting in a big financial commitment to stay competitive. I went back to beach cat/one design catamaran racing and then when the kite surfing came out I pretty much forgot about windsurfing. Just ran across this video that shows well just how charging surfsailing is these days. Not sure how Jean Claude VanDamme got into this vid but it is pretty funny.

 

That opening scene with the laid over bottom turn blows my mind! That is probably a 16' mast...  Enjoy.

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Sorry, it's not trickle down but trickle up from the Moth.

Sunnucks Vampire won Round Houat with T foils and wand.

Interestingly the AC75 has some kind of T foils too...

The Vampire were flying above 30 kts on flat water but used conventional straight boards on waves.

image.thumb.jpeg.daa17ffe160bfb8ca855fba5ddff18bb.jpeg

https://www.sail-world.com/news/204763/Vampires-flying-the-flag-at-Eurocat-2018

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On 02/05/2018 at 4:50 AM, Tornado-Cat said:

Sorry, it's not trickle down but trickle up from the Moth.

Even as an ex–Mothie, I still think contraptions like swing–up foils and wands look like overly complex kludges. There is a simplicity to J and Z foils that is lacking in most other approaches that rely on one or more active mechanical, hydraulic or electrical systems that are at lest partially, if not wholly, automated.

I don't see a system like the Vampire as evolution of the Moth T/wand system, more a bastardisation of it. If Z foils had been allowed per the Burvile/Pivac Moth and had Moth foils developed similarly to the A Class (but without the inset–from–the–top restriction), I wonder if T foils would have their current status.

While the AC50 Class L foils required sophisticated automation and hydraulic systems, they seemed to be developing in a way that simpler versions could be adopted for less bleeding edge applications, i.e. they might actually trickle down, but not widely. I can't see the Vampire system being any more widely adopted than centreline T foils on monohulls have been.

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11 minutes ago, RobG said:

Even as an ex–Mothie, I still think contraptions like swing–up foils and wands look like overly complex kludges. There is a simplicity to J and Z foils that is lacking in most other approaches that rely on one or more active mechanical, hydraulic or electrical systems that are at lest partially, if not wholly, automated.

I don't see a system like the Vampire as evolution of the Moth T/wand system, more a bastardisation of it. If Z foils had been allowed per the Burvile/Pivac Moth and had Moth foils developed similarly to the A Class (but without the inset–from–the–top restriction), I wonder if T foils would have their current status.

While the AC50 Class L foils required sophisticated automation and hydraulic systems, they seemed to be developing in a way that simpler versions could be adopted for less bleeding edge applications, i.e. they might actually trickle down, but not widely. I can't see the Vampire system being any more widely adopted than centreline T foils on monohulls have been.

Your comments are interesting because the Vampire goes to regular boards when the water is too choppy. The question is to know if the future is L or T foils. But present L foils are as tricky as T, so the T may have more advantages.

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I'm thinking more like how wing masts are treated. They're seen as an enhancement where the pros and cons are considered and not every wing mast has to be at the absolute bleeding edge. Foils seem to be the opposite: every system is judged by how close it is to the extreme limit of potential rather than a balance of overall benefit (there must be some sailing equivalent to the business triple bottom line).

That the Vampire has to change boards so radically for conditions I think proves the point, though perhaps it's no different to (and probably no more popular than) skiffs that have two or three rigs rather than a reefing main. I think only 12, 16 and 18 footers allow it and how numerous are they?

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On 4/14/2018 at 6:03 AM, Rasputin22 said:

I was very involved in windsurfing when it hit its big growth spurt as the short boards and fully battened sails emerged. The sport went from teak booms and roto molded pig shaped boards to Carbon FIber, Kevlar/Mylar, fully planing in no time at all and it was an exciting era. The 'gear race' got pretty out of hand resulting in a big financial commitment to stay competitive. I went back to beach cat/one design catamaran racing and then when the kite surfing came out I pretty much forgot about windsurfing. Just ran across this video that shows well just how charging surfsailing is these days. Not sure how Jean Claude VanDamme got into this vid but it is pretty funny.

 

That opening scene with the laid over bottom turn blows my mind! That is probably a 16' mast...  Enjoy.

 

But windsurfing didn't hit a big growth spurt when shortboards emerged - sales dropped dramatically, with the German market falling by something like 50% in one year (around 1984) which was when the brands really started promoting shortboards and dropping the old all-rounders. As Robby Naish said, "Over the years the sport of windsurfing developed itself into a tiny niche where fairly hard to find conditions with fairly strong winds were required to participate at all.  We in fact developed ourselves through higher and higher performance equipment (that is no doubt unbelievably fun when the conditions are right for it) into near extinction."

Many of the main brands - Starboard, Cobra, Naish, Exocet, Mistral, etc - are now involved in re-starting the sport as a simple, cheap, fun, all-weather activity rather than an extreme sport that is now 1/10 as big as it used to be. Check out the recent Mistral blog, where they talk about how the sport overshot itself with technology - and shot itself in the foot. So why are we taking boat sailing down the same dead end?

 

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That's a very good question.....

Does it have something to do with $s and the pros trying to distance themselves from the bunnies? Or testosterone and men from boys?

The inevitable winding down of a trend sport?

Or just sailors (and designers) challenging themselves as their skills improve?

 

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12 hours ago, Curious said:

 

But windsurfing didn't hit a big growth spurt when shortboards emerged - sales dropped dramatically, with the German market falling by something like 50% in one year (around 1984) which was when the brands really started promoting shortboards and dropping the old all-rounders. As Robby Naish said, "Over the years the sport of windsurfing developed itself into a tiny niche where fairly hard to find conditions with fairly strong winds were required to participate at all.  We in fact developed ourselves through higher and higher performance equipment (that is no doubt unbelievably fun when the conditions are right for it) into near extinction."

Many of the main brands - Starboard, Cobra, Naish, Exocet, Mistral, etc - are now involved in re-starting the sport as a simple, cheap, fun, all-weather activity rather than an extreme sport that is now 1/10 as big as it used to be. Check out the recent Mistral blog, where they talk about how the sport overshot itself with technology - and shot itself in the foot. So why are we taking boat sailing down the same dead end?

 

It was when the short board 'sinkers' displaced the full length 'floaters' like the Mistral and F2 and PanAm boards that the industry sort of painted itself into a corner. I was running a windsurfing concession and all my locals friends used to come down to 'my beach' on the weekends and I would organize casual races and treks to the nearby islands and bars. One board was all you needed and you could always get home even if the wind died nearly to nothing. I year after the short boards came on the scene everyone just blasted back and forth over the stretch just off the beach where the wind funneled through the gaps in the mountains throwing their most impressive jibes for the girls on the beach. Just a minor increase or decrease in the wind would have sailors sitting on the beach bitching and moaning 'I should have rigged my 7.2 meter on my 120 lliter and used my 14" fin' and you needed a whole quiver just to be a 'kool kid'. Curious has a good point and that quote by Robby Naish hit the nail on the head.

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Totally agree. I was heavily into windsurfing in the early 90's and every year there were massive changes, you needed thousands to keep up. Everyone was waiting for and needed those "nuking" winds, so locations that had breeze and sandbars, or cross shore and waves had sailors otherwise most places were empty. Eventually it became too hard, multiple boards 6 fins, 3 masts, a minimum of 4 sails a station wagon to carry all the crap around. Kite surfing is similar in some ways but a lot more portable, however even though there is a percentage that get big air and thrill the audience, for the most part all I see is a lot of people "mowing the lawn". Generally the simpler the gear the more popular the sport and the reverse is also true. 

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15 hours ago, nav said:

That's a very good question.....

Does it have something to do with $s and the pros trying to distance themselves from the bunnies? Or testosterone and men from boys?

The inevitable winding down of a trend sport?

Or just sailors (and designers) challenging themselves as their skills improve?

 

The collapse was several times bigger than the usual collapse in a trendy sport. And while there was a lot of short-sighted trendy abuse of anyone who dared to sail an un-cool board, there was also a genuine belief in many people that going extreme would be good for the pros and for the sport. It took years for them to realise it was a fool's errand. Extreme sports aren't popular, and seeking to challenge yourself can lead to you sailing less.   

The real pity is that the same sort of thinking is happening in boat sailing, and people are ignoring the lessons of windsurfing. As Gutterblack says, sports with complex gear are less popular, and sailing is making itself more and more complex. The really funny thing is that the AC teams are looking to spend $100 million and the boats may still sometimes get beaten by kites.

 

 

 

 

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NO, NO, NO...  There will be zero sailors trying to own anything like these boats.

Foiling moths have led the way into foiling monohulls and they discarded wings because too impractical.

But a soft twin skin sail might give enough performance advantage and be not too impractical to make it into the real sailing world - who knows?

Sailing 3 times the wind speed down wind is a fairly new reality.  Wasn't even thought possible a few years ago.

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"The really funny thing is that the AC teams are looking to spend $100 million and the boats may still sometimes get beaten by kites."  I thought about similar lines listening to the commentators get all excited because the America's Cup Class boats were hitting 16 knots in heavy air, knowing that a Melges 24 would be faster.

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^

I remember the AC72 leaving a 35 foot cat powered by 4 350 outboards in the waves of the gulf and the spies trying to get a small plane to spy.

I know a foiling kite surfer would not stand a chance either in 1 metre waves!

However foiling kites are amazing don't think I would not wish to be able to do that.  But 70+ limits you to watching and enjoying the more gentle 30 foot cruising cat.

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On 4/14/2018 at 8:03 AM, Rasputin22 said:

I was very involved in windsurfing when it hit its big growth spurt as the short boards and fully battened sails emerged. The sport went from teak booms and roto molded pig shaped boards to Carbon FIber, Kevlar/Mylar, fully planing in no time at all and it was an exciting era. The 'gear race' got pretty out of hand resulting in a big financial commitment to stay competitive. I went back to beach cat/one design catamaran racing and then when the kite surfing came out I pretty much forgot about windsurfing. Just ran across this video that shows well just how charging surfsailing is these days. Not sure how Jean Claude VanDamme got into this vid but it is pretty funny.

 

That opening scene with the laid over bottom turn blows my mind! That is probably a 16' mast...  Enjoy.

Great vid. I surf and have a new found respect. That sail should be a fucking liability, and yet ...

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2 hours ago, McGyver said:

"The really funny thing is that the AC teams are looking to spend $100 million and the boats may still sometimes get beaten by kites."  I thought about similar lines listening to the commentators get all excited because the America's Cup Class boats were hitting 16 knots in heavy air, knowing that a Melges 24 would be faster.

Yeah, I never understood that adage either, when people would talk about the Americas Cup as the "upper echelon" of sailing boats, but they did 9 knots upwind and 14 downwind, and my dads 30' sub-100k trailer boat could do 16 knots upwind with ease and 24 downwind, crewed by a 50 year old with a bad back, a 14 year old, a 17 year old and a 25 year old chick who'd taken up sailing 2 seasons prior and sailed with us each Sunday.

It is what it is.

This is a battle of wallets, wits and lawers, and $100 million is the entry fee.

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Windsurfing evolved itself into a dead end. 

The performance, simplicity, and variety of genres of the kite is what people's different tastes require. I have seen finless skim boards (wave skates), heavy race boards, twin tips, foils, folk hucking air on all of them...

The wind surfers rip back and forth on the beam and can't even tack, loosing 20 m every gybe.

It's innovation that the masses want to see and play with, not a 9 kt upwind beast from days gone by.

That's why the ac75 will work.

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On 7/28/2018 at 1:23 AM, barfy said:

 

It's innovation that the masses want to see and play with, not a 9 kt upwind beast from days gone by.

That's why the ac75 will work.

Do the masses actually want to see and play with extreme complex innovations?  Surely if that was so, at least one person in the entire world would be currently racing on the big innovation created by the last two ACs, which was the flying wingsailed cat. At the moment, there doesn't seem to be one person out of the billions on this planet who plays that game.  None of the C Class guys are racing, none of the wingsailed As seem to be racing, none of the AC boats are racing, and apart from the As (which have actually grown very little since foiling arrived) none of the soft-sailed foiling cats are popular.That would seem to indicate that the masses actually don't give a flying fuck about playing with AC innovation at the extremes. 

Meanwhile, the masses of those who get afloat on small craft are largely ignoring kites and puddling around on SUPs and plastic kayaks, which normally go a lot slower than 9 knots, and most racing sailors are still on stuff like Js, Beneteaus and Lasers.

By the way, lots of windsurfers can go upwind quite nicely.

 

 

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^

See and play with are two statements, sorry if I didn't make that clear.

Folk enjoyed the spectacle of the cyclors vrs the grinders, and the clean manoeuvres of the last match.

Kiters enjoy that there are many flavors to the genre.

And I have seen wind surfers go upwind, it's just that mostly I see them ripping back and forth on the beam, whereas I see many variations of kiting, the tricksters run on the beam and huck air, the foilers run up and down wind, wave surfers ride the waves...

Oh and add to ac34 legacy, perhaps jump into the personal shit fight that the AC 50 circus thread has become

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13 hours ago, Curious said:

Do the masses actually want to see and play with extreme complex innovations?  Surely if that was so, at least one person in the entire world would be currently racing on the big innovation created by the last two ACs, which was the flying wingsailed cat. At the moment, there doesn't seem to be one person out of the billions on this planet who plays that game.  None of the C Class guys are racing, none of the wingsailed As seem to be racing, none of the AC boats are racing, and apart from the As (which have actually grown very little since foiling arrived) none of the soft-sailed foiling cats are popular.That would seem to indicate that the masses actually don't give a flying fuck about playing with AC innovation at the extremes. 

Meanwhile, the masses of those who get afloat on small craft are largely ignoring kites and puddling around on SUPs and plastic kayaks, which normally go a lot slower than 9 knots, and most racing sailors are still on stuff like Js, Beneteaus and Lasers.

By the way, lots of windsurfers can go upwind quite nicely.

 

 

Wingsails not so much, but you really don't have to look very far to find a bunch of boats using the foil developments out of the last two AC events and not just pure race boats either.

Even with the wingsails I doubt it's the complexity that deters people it's the fragility and practicalities of putting it away at the end of the day, if it didn't get completely destroyed in a capsize and take a crane and 10 guys an hour to get it in a safe to leave overnight position you would probably see a little more buy-in.

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17 hours ago, Curious said:

Do the masses actually want to see and play with extreme complex innovations?  Surely if that was so, at least one person in the entire world would be currently racing on the big innovation created by the last two ACs, which was the flying wingsailed cat. At the moment, there doesn't seem to be one person out of the billions on this planet who plays that game.  None of the C Class guys are racing, none of the wingsailed As seem to be racing, none of the AC boats are racing, and apart from the As (which have actually grown very little since foiling arrived) none of the soft-sailed foiling cats are popular.That would seem to indicate that the masses actually don't give a flying fuck about playing with AC innovation at the extremes. 

Meanwhile, the masses of those who get afloat on small craft are largely ignoring kites and puddling around on SUPs and plastic kayaks, which normally go a lot slower than 9 knots, and most racing sailors are still on stuff like Js, Beneteaus and Lasers.

By the way, lots of windsurfers can go upwind quite nicely.

 

 

The masses?

They do not give a shit.

They only care about instagram, twitter, food and Netflix, and more specifically on netflix, they want easy watching, short on story, drama-comedies.

Sailing wise though, yes there are a couple of wingsailed foiling cats sailing around the world at the moment.

But yes, in all fairness it's a obvious minority.

The people with the money, are the old white guys who still like big old leadmines, which were the rage when they were kids.

30 years time, different ball game, the people with the money to play with this stuff will have grown up with foiling boats.

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35 minutes ago, darth reapius said:

30 years time, different ball game, the people with the money to play with this stuff will have grown up with foiling boats.

But will that make any difference? Over the last 10 years I've seen pretty much a full generation of kids go from learn to sail, through Sabots and onto skiffs, 29ers, etc. Most left sailing soon after leaving Sabots, generally in mid–teens.

There were very well performed foilers sailing at the club and sharing their courses. The crossed paths with kite foilers and saw some pretty impressive boats of all types, including national 14' and 16' champions sailing at the club.

Of the small number remaining over those years, not one is sailing a foiling anything. A couple tried foiling Moths and gave up because it was just too hard.

I love foiling, and hope it has great success, but it's just not going to happen on a mass scale. It will likely always be a niche part of sailing like open wheelers are a nice part of motor sport.

Foiling doesn't need mass adoption to be considered a legitimate aspect of sailing, it just needs to prove itself viable for a market segment or within certain criteria. And it has certainly done that.

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1 hour ago, darth reapius said:

The masses?

They do not give a shit.

They only care about instagram, twitter, food and Netflix, and more specifically on netflix, they want easy watching, short on story, drama-comedies.

Sailing wise though, yes there are a couple of wingsailed foiling cats sailing around the world at the moment.

But yes, in all fairness it's a obvious minority.

The people with the money, are the old white guys who still like big old leadmines, which were the rage when they were kids.

30 years time, different ball game, the people with the money to play with this stuff will have grown up with foiling boats.

As Rob said so well, there is already a generation who have grown up with modern foilers, and most of them aren't sailing them. And that just fits in with all that we have seen before. If you're 65 now, you were a young adult in the days of the Hobie boom and the era of the early offshore semi-foiling tris, like Paul Ricard and VSD, and when offshore racing multis are more popular than they are today and when Alain Colas and Tabarly were household names in France and Phil Weld was on the cover of US magazines. If you were an Australian, you grew up in the days when Colour 7 was on the TV and Hobies were scattered over every beach. If you were French, you grew up in the days when every third home had a windsurfer. If you're in your early 40s, you grew up in the "extreme windsurfing era" and when boats like the 49er, Boss and Laser 4000 were said to be the boats of the future.  But no matter how old you are and what was all the rage when you were a kid, today you are most likely to race either a leadmine or a singlehanded hiking dinghy. 

Given the current trajectory, in 30 years time there will be far fewer foiling boats than there were Hobies, Windsurfers, Australian skiffs, 505s and FDs when the current "old white guys" were growing up. Why should a far smaller group of foiling boats turn people off leadmines and towards wingmasted multis, when 200,000 Hobies, 500,000 windsurfers a year and the strong fleets of 85 to 25ft offshore multis didn't?

 

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4 hours ago, Boybland said:

Wingsails not so much, but you really don't have to look very far to find a bunch of boats using the foil developments out of the last two AC events and not just pure race boats either.

Even with the wingsails I doubt it's the complexity that deters people it's the fragility and practicalities of putting it away at the end of the day, if it didn't get completely destroyed in a capsize and take a crane and 10 guys an hour to get it in a safe to leave overnight position you would probably see a little more buy-in.

Where is that bunch of boats? Most people in the world would have to look many miles to see a bunch of boats using recent foil developments, and that's only if they have an A Class fleet nearby (and the A Class has picked up only about 30 members worldwide since foils arrived). What other bunches are there? Half a dozen boats racing in the Swiss FP series, a few boats doing a few events with the other FP series, and Nacras forming the least popular Olympic class with a few events.

It's all great, but even after being in the sport's premiere event, the foiling cats remain a tiny niche and cat sailing itself is not growing. It's a great product, but after a decade of huge promotion it's apparent the mass market doesn't give a fuck. So surely we should accept that, learn the lesson, and change our approach.

 

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4 minutes ago, RobG said:

But will that make any difference? Over the last 10 years I've seen pretty much a full generation of kids go from learn to sail, through Sabots and onto skiffs, 29ers, etc. Most left sailing soon after leaving Sabots, generally in mid–teens.

There were very well performed foilers sailing at the club and sharing their courses. The crossed paths with kite foilers and saw some pretty impressive boats of all types, including national 14' and 16' champions sailing at the club.

Of the small number remaining over those years, not one is sailing a foiling anything. A couple tried foiling Moths and gave up because it was just too hard.

I love foiling, and hope it has great success, but it's just not going to happen on a mass scale. It will likely always be a niche part of sailing like open wheelers are a nice part of motor sport.

Foiling doesn't need mass adoption to be considered a legitimate aspect of sailing, it just needs to prove itself viable for a market segment or within certain criteria. And it has certainly done that.

This is a good point.

I must say though, most clubs here, just outright banned multihulls. Only in the last couple of years some of them have started to allow multi-hulls to race.

When those cats and bigger cats started becoming the rage, all the big clubs here like SOPYC, RFBYC, RPYC banned them and didn't allow them to come race.

Clubs like NYC and JBYC became the only places multihulls were sailed until the last 10 years, and even then, there is less than 2/3 at each of those 3 clubs before which sail, compared to the hundreds on monos, as they have only started to allow them in the last year or two.

The reason, the 80 year olds in charge who were beaten in the 70's have all started dying off, and the people in charge now are those folk who are 65 and grew up thinking multis are cool, so in 30 years time I have no doubt we'll see the multi market grow massively compared to the mono market.

That said, the foiling market will always be a niche, a very small portion of the market as you have said, but instead of being 0.1% of boat sails, maybe it'll grow to 1%?

Who knows, time will tell! It won't make much difference, but It'll make a small difference. Mono's simplicity will keep them at the top for a while, Multi's will grow more than in the past, and foilers will have a little boost, still being the absolute minority for a long time to come (I'd say sailing will die before foiling or multihulls take over, as you are right, pretty much every teenager gives up now-a-days).

8 minutes ago, Curious said:

If you're 65 now, you were a young adult in the days of the Hobie boom and the era of the early offshore semi-foiling tris, like Paul Ricard and VSD, and when offshore racing multis are more popular than they are today and when Alain Colas and Tabarly were household names in France and Phil Weld was on the cover of US magazines. If you were an Australian, you grew up in the days when Colour 7 was on the TV. If you were French, you grew up in the days when every third home had a windsurfer.

The people who grew up with the early inshore and offshore multis like the original Tornado, Shearwater, Toria and Manu Kai would be in their 60s. The people who were ten years old when there were over 50 boats (of up to 90ft) racing in the biggest offshore multi regatta are approaching middle age. And yet very few of them are racing offshore multis.

Given the current trajectory, in 30 years time there will be far fewer foiling boats than there were Hobies, Windsurfers, 505s and FDs when the current "old white guys" were growing up. Why should a far smaller group of foiling boats have a big influence, when 200,000 Hobies, 500,000 windsurfers a year and the strong fleets of 85 ft offshore multis didn't?

Oh no it won't have a bigger influence, it will be smaller, but if in the 50's it was 99% mono, 1% multi, in the 2000's its 90%, 9.9% and 0.1%, maybe in the 2050's it will be 60%, 38%, 2%... But in my opinion, that would be a "different ball game". Lots more foilers around, lots to try, multihulls everywhere, and mono's as the "cheap way into sailing".

 

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3 hours ago, darth reapius said:

I must say though, most clubs here, just outright banned multihulls.

My club hasn't banned them, but doesn't actively encourage them either. We only have about 1500m of rigging area and managed to squeeze in 65 monos at one regatta, with classes of all sorts including Sabot, Heron, Laser, 125, Sabre, Impulse, 13, 14 and 16' skiffs with a few Moths for fun (plus the odd B14, Sharpie, 5o5, etc.). We regularly get 40+ boats on a weekend, there's no way we could fit that many multis in the same space.

Multis are free to use the club when we aren't there, but there's no viable organisation to run their races—we're  a100% volunteer club and needs some time off occasionally! There are 12s and 18s sailing at the club on our off days, but they do all their own organisation and support.

We've twice run a sate Moth championship, it resulted in zero uptake of Moths by juniors. A couple of older guys have bought them but can't sail them.

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4 hours ago, darth reapius said:

This is a good point.

I must say though, most clubs here, just outright banned multihulls. Only in the last couple of years some of them have started to allow multi-hulls to race.

When those cats and bigger cats started becoming the rage, all the big clubs here like SOPYC, RFBYC, RPYC banned them and didn't allow them to come race.

Clubs like NYC and JBYC became the only places multihulls were sailed until the last 10 years, and even then, there is less than 2/3 at each of those 3 clubs before which sail, compared to the hundreds on monos, as they have only started to allow them in the last year or two.

The reason, the 80 year olds in charge who were beaten in the 70's have all started dying off, and the people in charge now are those folk who are 65 and grew up thinking multis are cool, so in 30 years time I have no doubt we'll see the multi market grow massively compared to the mono market.

That said, the foiling market will always be a niche, a very small portion of the market as you have said, but instead of being 0.1% of boat sails, maybe it'll grow to 1%?

Who knows, time will tell! It won't make much difference, but It'll make a small difference. Mono's simplicity will keep them at the top for a while, Multi's will grow more than in the past, and foilers will have a little boost, still being the absolute minority for a long time to come (I'd say sailing will die before foiling or multihulls take over, as you are right, pretty much every teenager gives up now-a-days).

Oh no it won't have a bigger influence, it will be smaller, but if in the 50's it was 99% mono, 1% multi, in the 2000's its 90%, 9.9% and 0.1%, maybe in the 2050's it will be 60%, 38%, 2%... But in my opinion, that would be a "different ball game". Lots more foilers around, lots to try, multihulls everywhere, and mono's as the "cheap way into sailing".

 

Thing is, though, that the number and proportion of racing boats that are multis seems to be dwindling in lots of places. Multis were almost certainly a bigger proportion of racing boats decades ago than they are today. In Australia in the '80s, cats like the Maris, Windrush, Paper Tigers and Hobie 14s could each get as many boats to championships as the Lasers, and far more than the Sabres.  In England there were more multis, in absolute numbers and as a percentage, in the Round the Island in the '80s than there are today. There are only as many multis racing in the Transpac today as there were in the 1960s. The Texel, the world's biggest cat race, is down to less than half of its peak. And the collapse in windsurfer numbers has been even bigger.

Lots of clubs where you live may have banned cats, but where I live they were welcome in about half of the yacht clubs and many of the small boat clubs, and have been for decades. In all that time, only one fleet of big multis has been created.

The shift among racing sailors actually seems to be towards leadmines, not away from them - and that's after the multis have had the boost of the AC and even where clubs have welcomed them. I'm a cat sailor so I'm not happy about the dwindling cat numbers, but the important thing is surely to be realistic about it and to learn the lessons. 

 

 

 

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On 7/30/2018 at 5:39 PM, Curious said:

Where is that bunch of boats? Most people in the world would have to look many miles to see a bunch of boats using recent foil developments, and that's only if they have an A Class fleet nearby (and the A Class has picked up only about 30 members worldwide since foils arrived). What other bunches are there? Half a dozen boats racing in the Swiss FP series, a few boats doing a few events with the other FP series, and Nacras forming the least popular Olympic class with a few events.

It's all great, but even after being in the sport's premiere event, the foiling cats remain a tiny niche and cat sailing itself is not growing. It's a great product, but after a decade of huge promotion it's apparent the mass market doesn't give a fuck. So surely we should accept that, learn the lesson, and change our approach.

 

Add in the Gunboat, GC32's, Extreme 40's, SL 33, the big overshore tri's currently undergoing testing.

At what point does a few become a bunch, I'm not sure?

In fact it seems to me that almost all the intresting things coming to cat sailing recently have come out of foiling, if cat sailing (and sailing in general) was to change tack what would it be to?

I am pretty sure the mass market doesn't give a fuck problem is that basically sailing in general that is going out of fashion, it's a bit like trying to convince Americans that trains a great idea, even though it's true and works perfectly in other countries you still can't convince enough of them to give up those god awful ugly great diesel pickup trucks!

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There's what, one foiling Gunboat, about 8 active GC32s, the ageing X40s, a few SL33s, a handful of Maxims, and the Decision 35s are switching to foils.  That's about all that's come out of the enormous hype that centred around cats in the AC and big foiling cats. It's a piss poor takeup, given the publicity and hype. There has probably been something like $700 million spent on foiling cats in the last few years - and we've got about 35 or so of them on the water. If that's pretty much all the big-boat multihull foiling that can come from two America's Cups, during which hundreds of millions of dollars have been spent and Ellison spent huge amounts buying TV time and on coverage, then it seems it's not something "the masses want to play with".

The enormous hype, the enormous support, and the enormous sums are not putting boats on the water and it's not putting bums on boats. That's not even taking into account the fact that even if foiling had never been invented, we'd still normally have seahugging Extreme 40s, seahugging Maxims, seahugging ORMA 60s and lots of other big fast multis. In fact, there could well be fewer active racing multis over 30ft than there were 20 years ago.

Sure, sailing is going out of fashion. Every market study I can find indicates it's going out of fashion because the hype about extreme sailing is telling potential sailors that the sport is stupidly expensive, stupidly dangerous and stupidly complex, yet you still go slower than a man can go on a bicycle or Bubba can go on his bass boat. The trickle down is not really happening and the current marketing clearly is not working so why not admit, before the sport suffers more?

 

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Mr Curious

You spin a good story but I wonder if your real name is Trump, because you clearly aren't allowing facts to influence your claims.;)

Your numbers are well short and are totally distorted. Take the A. I don't know where you get your figures from. Do you know how many foiling A's have been built to which you also need to add those that have been converted to foiling? Come back when you have done your research. Why do you fail to mention so many other foiling multis which are properly up and running ranging in size from the S9 which has sold well to the TF10 which is being promoted by no less than NYYC. You know something has gone mainstream when you see the NYYC choosing to promote it. The D35's aren't switching to foils - they are building a whole new class which will foil. You might knock the Nacra 17, something I regularly do because it is really pretty average, but you cannot ignore the numbers. I don't know where you get that it is the least popular Olympic class from, and it's hard to make that call, but looking at the number of entries at Aarhus doesn't support that. There are 10 events and the N17 come in at 6th in terms of the number of entries.

These things take time to filter through. Look at Moths, which we first saw foiling in around 2005. It took the Waszp 2 years to sell the same number as the Moths sold in 12 years. Go back to other major breakthroughs in sailing. The asymmetric kite probably took 20 years to become mainstream. I think the uptake of foiling in multis is happening at the fastest rate I have ever seen for a major change in our sport. The first foiling AC boat was only launched 6 years ago and the first foiling AC racing was 5 years ago. You seem to have a very impatient view of how fast things should be adopted.

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1 hour ago, A Class Sailor said:

Go back to other major breakthroughs in sailing. The asymmetric kite probably took 20 years to become mainstream.

You must be younger than I thought.  I used to sail an Idle Along which was designed in 1934 and it's spinnaker was a single luff spinnaker as were all the spinnakers of the day.  Later the double luff spinnaker was developed and that rendered the single luff spinnaker obsolete.  

Now the single luff spinnaker is back with a new name (asymmetric) and it's the latest thing since sliced bread.

 

1952-60 (05) Intrigue - 18 Footer @ Auckland-ps-10.jpg

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2 hours ago, A Class Sailor said:

. You know something has gone mainstream when you see the NYYC choosing to promote it.

Ah, the NYYC, that bedrock of grassroots sailing.

Btw I have been sailing for 4 decades and am yet to even see an A-class cat, foiling or not. Locally we have plenty of Moths and some Wazps but those have nothing to do with AC "trickle down" as the Moths got there first.

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4 hours ago, A Class Sailor said:

Mr Curious

You spin a good story but I wonder if your real name is Trump, because you clearly aren't allowing facts to influence your claims.;)

Your numbers are well short and are totally distorted. Take the A. I don't know where you get your figures from. Do you know how many foiling A's have been built to which you also need to add those that have been converted to foiling? Come back when you have done your research. Why do you fail to mention so many other foiling multis which are properly up and running ranging in size from the S9 which has sold well to the TF10 which is being promoted by no less than NYYC. You know something has gone mainstream when you see the NYYC choosing to promote it. The D35's aren't switching to foils - they are building a whole new class which will foil. You might knock the Nacra 17, something I regularly do because it is really pretty average, but you cannot ignore the numbers. I don't know where you get that it is the least popular Olympic class from, and it's hard to make that call, but looking at the number of entries at Aarhus doesn't support that. There are 10 events and the N17 come in at 6th in terms of the number of entries.

These things take time to filter through. Look at Moths, which we first saw foiling in around 2005. It took the Waszp 2 years to sell the same number as the Moths sold in 12 years. Go back to other major breakthroughs in sailing. The asymmetric kite probably took 20 years to become mainstream. I think the uptake of foiling in multis is happening at the fastest rate I have ever seen for a major change in our sport. The first foiling AC boat was only launched 6 years ago and the first foiling AC racing was 5 years ago. You seem to have a very impatient view of how fast things should be adopted.

Bullshit. I've done research by taking A Class numbers come from the A Class AGM. Are you claiming that your own class is lying?

Let's look at what was happening well before the full foilers arrived. A decade ago (2007), there were 974 financial members. In 2009, there were 900 financial members. There are no 2008 numbers. In 2016, there were 894 financial members. In 2017, there were 808 financial members. 2018 figures are not available. Unless you have some special maths, I think you will find that the numbers a decade ago (974 and 900) are larger than the number these days (808 and 894). That is not indicative of strong growth, as someone who was formerly at the top of the class mentioned to me. Over a shorter period numbers have increased slightly but any claim that the overall trend for the class membership is strongly increasing is incorrect.

I don't know where you sail or what you were sailing, but within a few years of the first modern assy going onto Prime Computers (No 2) in '83/'84, there were hundreds of Laser 4000s, Laser 5000s, Bosses, Spices, Buzzes, 16 Foot Skiffs, 18 Foot Skiffs, 12 Foot Skiffs, One Design 14s (launched 1987), B14s (in production 1989 I think), International 14s and others sailing with assys in other parts of the world. By May 1991, ISAF had announced there would be an assy skiff in the Olympics, and 11 designs turned up for the trials in Torbole. The J/109 was launched the same year, trailing assys on offshore boats in the southern hemisphere by some time. That shows a much faster adoption of the concept than you claim. 

Look at other innovations in other areas of sailing - the Windsurfer was created around 1968 and within about 7 years there were over 400 sailors at world titles. Within 17 years, there were 500,000 boards being built per year. Even in leadmines, the One Ton Cup was given to offshore racers in 1965 and within about 11 years there were hundreds of One Tonners like Swan 36s, 37s, 371s, Morgan One Tons, Farr 1104s, Ranger 37s, Yankee 36s, Carter One Tons, M&W 40s, Contessa 35s, Cavalier 36s, Ganbares, Yamaha 36s.... you name it. The Wai Aniwa staysail was seen internationally in December 1971 and within four or five years they would have been thousands of them out there.

The Nacra 17 is the least popular Olympic class because significantly fewer people race them, as demonstrated by the number who have ISAF rankings. Using one regatta is not a useful measure. Yes, there are a few other foiling multis around, but given the enormous promotion the type has received, the numbers remain very small.

 

PS - It appears that you are under the belief that foiling in Moths started around 2005, and that foiling offshore multis are about as new. In both cases, you're out by decades. Foiling offshore multis have been around since the late '60s, about five years before the first foiling Moth. Surely after half a century there's been enough time for them to become overnight sensations?

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Terry Hollis said:

You must be younger than I thought.  I used to sail an Idle Along which was designed in 1934 and it's spinnaker was a single luff spinnaker as were all the spinnakers of the day.  Later the double luff spinnaker was developed and that rendered the single luff spinnaker obsolete.  

Now the single luff spinnaker is back with a new name (asymmetric) and it's the latest thing since sliced bread.

 

1952-60 (05) Intrigue - 18 Footer @ Auckland-ps-10.jpg

That's a different sort of sail to the modern assy, though, and used in a different manner.

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2 hours ago, Curious said:

Bullshit. I've done research by taking A Class numbers come from the A Class AGM. Are you claiming that your own class is lying?

Let's look at what was happening well before the full foilers arrived. A decade ago (2007), there were 974 financial members. In 2009, there were 900 financial members. There are no 2008 numbers. In 2016, there were 894 financial members. In 2017, there were 808 financial members. 2018 figures are not available. Unless you have some special maths, I think you will find that the numbers a decade ago (974 and 900) are larger than the number these days (808 and 894). That is not indicative of strong growth, as someone who was formerly at the top of the class mentioned to me. Over a shorter period numbers have increased slightly but any claim that the overall trend for the class membership is strongly increasing is incorrect.

Where do I say that class membership is strongly increasing? You are using unrelated figures to try to say that foiling isn't popular or having an impact. The issue isn't how many members there are. The issue is how many foiling boats are sailing. You cannot use the number of registered members as evidence of the lack of popularity of foiling. It is an unfortunate fact that in recent times, non foiling A Class owners have stopped being financial members of the association. Many still own boats and still race them at club level. I don't have the exact numbers of A Class Foilers in the world, but I know it is now well in excess of 175 boats. I suspect it is actually well over 200, which isn't bad seeing that the first proper foilers were only seen 4 years old. 

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Hang on, first you claimed I wasn't looking at facts. Now I have shown that I have got the facts from official A Class reports (among other info), you try to divert the issue. What about starting to show some integrity by admitting that you were wrong when you claimed I'm ignoring facts? 

It's bullshit to say I'm using unrelated figures to show that foiling isn't very popular. All the available objective data, including reported boats sold, class association membership and championship attendance, confirm it. It's great, the boats are awesome, it's fun - but it's not something "the masses want to play with". The fact that you are claiming 200 foiling As (which is probably actually on the low side - the class claims 430 boats over the five years to 2017, compared to 360 F 18s, about 1200 J/70s, 1500 Aeros and 519 49/FXers) is a symbol that foiling is popular shows how low you seem to be setting the bar. In a world where up to half a million people go sailing in some countries and there are thousands of small racing boats built each year, annual sales of 350-200 International class foiling boats per year (A Class, Nacra 17 and Moth class official figures) is not evidence that they "something the masses want to play with". Even adding in the successful Waszp and the other foilers (which normally seem to be selling in very small numbers if at all) the fact is that foiling boats are a minority of the market. That is not an attack, that is a fact.

Yes, some non-foiling A owners may have dropped out of the class - so how can you ignore such downsides?  The number of As being built each year today are very similar to the number that was being built each year before foiling arrived - check the class reports instead of believing the spin. 

To point out that (despite the AC and an Olympic spot and huge promotion)foiling is not actually attracting "the masses" is NOT to attack the classes or the boats. Lots of the greatest classes are not very popular. That doesn't mean we should ignore what is actually happening.

 

 

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Mr Curious

Thanks for your figures. So foiling A's are even more popular than i thought. More importantly, according to your figures, they are as popular as non foiling A's used to be. Says a lot about foiling and even more that A's are now outselling F18's. 

I think your expectations for foiling are a bit misleading. The high performance end of sailing has and will always be for a small minority and most foiling is at the top end of high performance.The interesting thing about high performance sailing is that it might only attract a small number of people, but it has the biggest influence on our sport. It has given us the vang, trapeze, asymmetric kite and much more. The other thing to consider can be seen from the numbers of eyes on threads on forums and on what is reported in all forms of media. It is clear that foiling events attract huge interest compared with, say J70's. I can't remember people complaining about poor coverage of the J70's or lack of videos even though it is a fraction of what you see from classes like the Moth and A. 

On 8/2/2018 at 9:02 PM, Curious said:

Yes, some non-foiling A owners may have dropped out of the class - so how can you ignore such downsides?

It's funny how you think of the A situation as having a downside. Consider it another way. Go through threads in the multihull section or in the dinghy section and there are many laments about declining numbers in most classes and events. In the beach cat world, look at the entries for Round Texel which have plummeted. In a time when you would have expected A Class numbers to have shrunk, they have remained steady and new boats are being built.  Many believe that foiling has been the reason why the A's are so healthy now when so many others are worried about their future. 

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You're completely wrong, yet again, when you appear to imply that I believe that foiling boats will become any more than a niche. Any reasonable reading of my earlier posts would have showed that the point was that contrary to Barfy's claim, the masses would not go foiling because high performance classes are a minority interest. That why those earlier posts included remarks like "(foiling is) a great product, but after a decade of huge promotion it's apparent the mass market doesn't give a fuck" and "it seems it's not something the masses want to play with". So even with the huge boost that should have come from the ACs and the choice of a foiling cat in the Olympics, foiling cats remain a very small niche within the sport.

Yes, the numbers in cat sailing are dropping. I quite clearly pointed that out in post 1261 so I have no idea why you believe I was unaware of it. Yes, the A Class numbers are holding up comparatively well. I never said they were not. The point is that the increase in foiling cat numbers is not very large in the context of the entire sport, which indicates that the masses are not going foiling.

The fact that owners of older As are dropping out IS a downside. That does not mean that the "A situation" as a whole is a downside and I did not claim it was.  Fact is, the class membership has either dropped (from around 2002) or only risen slightly (over the last few years). I also note that what are probably the closest comparable boats, Australia's Taipan 4.9 in singlehander form and the Unicorn, also appear to be doing well. That may indicate that the A is partly doing well because of a general shift to singlehanders irrespective of foils, which is also happening with dinghies in the UK.

For you to tell me to do research when I have already done research and your own research and knowledge is so piss poor you don't even known your own class' build numbers is arrogant and dishonest. And after all that time, you end up making the same point I made to Barfy, which is that high performance is only for a small minority and the masses aren't going to play with foils. Jeezers!

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5 hours ago, Curious said:

 The point is that the increase in foiling cat numbers is not very large in the context of the entire sport, which indicates that the masses are not going foiling....

high performance is only for a small minority and the masses aren't going to play with foils. Jeezers!

Strange logic. On my beach today sailboards were foiling, kites were foiling, and lots of beach cats will foil when affordable.

Leasure mono sailing won't change but beach boats and competition sailing will change, and is already changed: moth, nacra 17, FP, Nacras ncs.

 

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Your beach is not the entire world. No one ever said that no one foils, but the point is that the number of foiling boats is fairly small - just 400 Nacra 17s built in four years (small numbers for a new Olympic class), a couple of hundred FPs and others, about 65 Moths built in 2017 and 500 or so over the last five years, plus of course a good fleet of Wazsps. In a world where hundreds of thousands go sailing those numbers are small.  The number of J/70s alone built recently is greater than the number of foiling boats. Same with Aeros. 

There has been a lot of publicity but there are not, when seen in the context of world numbers, a lot of boats being built. In a world where hundreds of thousands of people go sailing, the fact that there have been a couple of thousand of foiling boats built does not really mean that they are "for the masses". 

 

 

 

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We can agree on one thing and that is that Barfy was wrong about the masses. Maybe my comments were badly phrased, but I have always believed that high performance sailing is for a minority and foiling is a sub set of that minority. It's just like cars. Racing fast cars has a huge following from people who will only ever want slow, family cars.

14 minutes ago, Curious said:

Your beach is not the entire world. The point is that the number of foiling boats is fairly small - just 400 Nacra 17s built in four years, about 200 FPs, about 65 Moths built in 2017 and 500 or so over the last five years, plus of course a good fleet of Wazsps. In a world where hundreds of thousands go sailing those numbers are small.  The number of J/70s alone built recently is greater than the number of foiling boats. Same with Aeros. 

There has been a lot of publicity but there are not, when seen in the context of world numbers, a lot of boats being built. In a world where hundreds of thousands of people go sailing, the fact that there have been a couple of thousand of foiling boats built does not really mean that they are "for the masses". 

The problem is that to make your point, you keep distorting the facts to suit your argument. For instance, nobody compares the sales of J70's with foiling beach boats.It's like comparing the sales of single seater race cars with Ford Falcons. Pointless. Than, yet again you mention only 4 foiling boats to prove numbers are low. The easy one that you missed out is the one you had previously quoted, the 430 foiling A'S which now I have had time to check, actually under estimates the numbers a lot because it doesn't take into account all the existing boats that have been converted to foiling (in Oz alone, I can think of 20). Sure, that still doesn't move the needle by that much, but it's a start. You don't mention the UFO, S9, Whisper, Phantom Essential, Quant 23, plus a load more I can't remember at the moment. 

Foiling has made a profound impact on the high performance market. It might only be a sub set of the overall market, but to ignore it or be as dismissive as you are being is wrong. The high performance end of the market is important and works the same way as it does with cars. Almost everybody goes to the motorshow and spends their time looking at the exotics such as Ferrari or Lamborghini but then they buy the Ford or Holden. The kids (or even adults) see the foiling Moths and A's and similar, but they start with the Optimists and progress to the Aero. I doubt non sailing parents look at Optimists and buy one because it is the dream they have for their kids.

I believe that foiling has made one of the biggest impacts on our sport that I have seen in 35 years of sailing. Its rate of adoption by high performance sailing is certainly the fastest I can remember of any innovation. It's not for everybody, but it is here to stay.

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Watching the Ocean racers, which are only foil assist, but the difference in blasting across huge waves in near hurricane conditions is absolutely amazing to watch.

I, for one, would not go a leg, (particularly a southern leg), on one of those but I can watch them often and long, mesmerised by the "apparent" control.

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1 hour ago, Curious said:

Your beach is not the entire world. No one ever said that no one foils, but the point is that the number of foiling boats is fairly small - just 400 Nacra 17s built in four years (small numbers for a new Olympic class), a couple of hundred FPs and others, about 65 Moths built in 2017 and 500 or so over the last five years, plus of course a good fleet of Wazsps. In a world where hundreds of thousands go sailing those numbers are small.  The number of J/70s alone built recently is greater than the number of foiling boats. Same with Aeros. 

There has been a lot of publicity but there are not, when seen in the context of world numbers, a lot of boats being built. In a world where hundreds of thousands of people go sailing, the fact that there have been a couple of thousand of foiling boats built does not really mean that they are "for the masses". 

 

 

 

I don't say that foiling will represent the majority of sailing boats, but how can you judge with just 4 ou 5 years of foiling ? just wait the concept improves, is affordable and adopted in sailing schools.

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There really was no trickle down of foil technology from the last two cycles; who really wants to move the entire foil box in order to adjust rake.

Wait until some real $$$ gets spent on flaps and associated control systems. I know the mothies have it, but there is no real dev.

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8 hours ago, A Class Sailor said:

We can agree on one thing and that is that Barfy was wrong about the masses. Maybe my comments were badly phrased, but I have always believed that high performance sailing is for a minority and foiling is a sub set of that minority. It's just like cars. Racing fast cars has a huge following from people who will only ever want slow, family cars.

The problem is that to make your point, you keep distorting the facts to suit your argument. For instance, nobody compares the sales of J70's with foiling beach boats.It's like comparing the sales of single seater race cars with Ford Falcons. Pointless. Than, yet again you mention only 4 foiling boats to prove numbers are low. The easy one that you missed out is the one you had previously quoted, the 430 foiling A'S which now I have had time to check, actually under estimates the numbers a lot because it doesn't take into account all the existing boats that have been converted to foiling (in Oz alone, I can think of 20). Sure, that still doesn't move the needle by that much, but it's a start. You don't mention the UFO, S9, Whisper, Phantom Essential, Quant 23, plus a load more I can't remember at the moment. 

Foiling has made a profound impact on the high performance market. It might only be a sub set of the overall market, but to ignore it or be as dismissive as you are being is wrong. The high performance end of the market is important and works the same way as it does with cars. Almost everybody goes to the motorshow and spends their time looking at the exotics such as Ferrari or Lamborghini but then they buy the Ford or Holden. The kids (or even adults) see the foiling Moths and A's and similar, but they start with the Optimists and progress to the Aero. I doubt non sailing parents look at Optimists and buy one because it is the dream they have for their kids.

I believe that foiling has made one of the biggest impacts on our sport that I have seen in 35 years of sailing. Its rate of adoption by high performance sailing is certainly the fastest I can remember of any innovation. It's not for everybody, but it is here to stay.

Since we are basically saying the same thing - that foiling is not for the masses - I have no idea why you keep on making stupid and insulting comments,  such as the one that I am distorting facts to suit my argument. If I was distorting facts I wouldn't have mentioned that A Class build numbers were higher than you said, would I?  If I was distorting facts to suit my argument I wouldn't have said that the number of conventional cats in races like Texel were down in posts 1257 and 1261, well before you brought up the same facts with the implication I wasn't aware.

I did not "only mention 4 foiling boats to prove numbers are low". I mentioned the four most popular foiling boats because they are sufficient to prove that in a world where hundreds of thousands go sailing and thousands of boats are built each year, the numbers of foiling boats being built is comparatively small. But okay, so let's bring in the less popular foilers. As far as I can find, there's 121+ UFOs (good going but not enormous compared to seahuggers). The S9? Well, from The Foiling Week's site it looks as if none of the three entries to their regatta during Foiling Week actually turned up, and the class page seems to show just five at the other event this season.  The Whisper? Launched 2015 and I can't find any proper information or any sail number higher than 34, but someone on the web claimed 20 built per year. iFly? No information I can find but they publicised foiling week as a regatta and one (yep, one)  turned up. Easy to Fly? Seems to get half a dozen boats to events. Flying Phantom Ultimate? Twelve available for 2018, according to their site, but apparently only three sold in the months after announcement. Flying Phantom Essential? Can't find info. Flying Phantom series? It will have up to 11 boats after four years. Eagle Cat? From what I can find, silence after launching two boats.  Nacra 20 FCS? Small numbers.

So we've got maybe 430 As, 130+ UFOs, a couple of hundred claimed FPs, 400 Nacra 17s (official class total build), and apparently very small numbers of the rest. Say, roughly, 1400 foiling cats built since 2014 or thereabouts. Not bad, 'cause they are great boats, but hardly evidence that they are "something the masses want to play with", unless you deal with very small "masses".

To claim that comparing J/70s with foiling cats is unfair to foilers is odd, since normally the most popular fast yachts, trailer sailers and sportsboats are LESS popular than the most popular high-performance cats of the same era. Compare the Soling to the Tornado - similar age and 1000 more Ts have been built. Compare the Melges 24 (857 boats since 1992) to the F18 (3000 since 1994). This may be the first time that the most popular small yacht has outsold the most popular high-performance cat. And despite your claims of bias, as someone who prefers cats to sportsboats I'm not happy about it - the point is that I'm not closing my eyes to the reality.

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7 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

I don't say that foiling will represent the majority of sailing boats, but how can you judge with just 4 ou 5 years of foiling ? just wait the concept improves, is affordable and adopted in sailing schools.

The modern foiling mono has been around for 16 years and while they are fantastic, they are incomparably less popular than beach cats were 16 years after the first class was launched, or 16 years after the Windsurfer was created, or 16 years after the kitefoiler was created. By the way, there's been foiling schools around for some time, and some very smart guys have still failed to create cheap and efficient foils so it may not be possible.

Actually, it will be interesting to see whether the majority of people who want to foil will just go to kites. Once you've got foil-friendly conditions they may make a lot of sense.

 

 

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Foiling kites are very accomplished but the new evolution of foils (like the L and those we have seen with Ineos) will bring it to beach cats and monos. Once it gets easy to foil and affordable masses will use it.

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Agree - in particular when they figure out how to alter yacht design to push the light wind performance, there's a huge market share that will be overtaken in flat water conditions.

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Not sure it is obvious that the kind of foils required are ever going to be be anything other than expensive and fragile. I recall a local mothist crying into his beer after hitting our local gravel bank. What would have been an annoyance in a normal dinghy, solvable with a tube of epoxy and a session or two with sandpaper, wrote off several £Ks for him.

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1 hour ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Foiling kites are very accomplished but the new evolution of foils (like the L and those we have seen with Ineos) will bring it to beach cats and monos. Once it gets easy to foil and affordable masses will use it.

The masses have never chosen high-performance boats before. They never opted for Tornadoes over Dragons. They never went for 12 Foot Skiffs over Lasers or Snipes. They never went for Newick tris instead of Beneteaus. As the real masses of people paddling around on SUPs and plastic kayaks can show us, the masses don't care about speed.

However, since it's pointless discussing issues with people who don't want to look at what really happens, I'll opt out of the discussion.

 

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10 hours ago, barfy said:

There really was no trickle down of foil technology from the last two cycles; who really wants to move the entire foil box in order to adjust rake.

Wait until some real $$$ gets spent on flaps and associated control systems. I know the mothies have it, but there is no real dev.

If I am not mistaken, full foiling cats (credit it to who you want) were not really around before ac34. We now see them in a class cats taking off, nacra 17’s and countless other small cats, plus GC32’s flying around in the ESS and other world circuits. They had a big trickle down in the concepts, even the surface piercing foil (not uPtiP) has made waves in the foiling community. 

Persionally, I don’t see how this new concept of a foiling mono can really be scaled down likefoiling cats without ridiculous prices. 

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