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trickle down

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So I think AC only really added to the acceptance of foiling as a way to go and some of the refinements.

Thank you @Basiliscus and others.  The information gives a good perspective of the trickle down for me.

Will we see more wings in the future? some collapsible versions perhaps?

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5 hours ago, surfsailor said:

Re modern kite foiling, the air chair was the first example I ever saw of the ‘submerged airplane in a stick’ paradigm that is the basis of most of the kite/surf/windsurf foils today. That was on Maui in the late 90s. 

 

Remember seeing the Air Chair at the Boat Show in the Javits Center, '92 or '93. Must confess I didn't think the contraption would work, much less have such a future development

 

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22 hours ago, Xlot said:

 

Remember seeing the Air Chair at the Boat Show in the Javits Center, '92 or '93. Must confess I didn't think the contraption would work, much less have such a future development

 

I heard about it after the strapped guys started bolting them to boards - late 90s. When they told me where they got the foils, I was like 'wait - somebody invented a foiling contraption that you SIT on while being towed behind a ski boat? WTF??!' LOL

Really, really clever - those guys were really thinking out of the box, and way ahead of the curve. There are some more recent versions with a canard set up.

 

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^

Funny.  It's a lot of years since I did any water-skiing but that really sounds like shit!

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Air chair is an interesting toy that I never got very good at, raising and lowering the center of pull (tow rope) is the only elevation control you have and it's pretty tweaky.  Slalom skiing instinct to lean back when in trouble is exactly the wrong response, it sends you airborne, crash land, and with your legs strapped to the chair, you sink until your arms can swim you back up.  Not dangerous, just a little weird.  My buddy could land flips, but said "you have to land on your head a hundred times before you land your first flip".  Yeah... nah.  But a good toy for him since he had back troubles and could no longer handle the huge load of slalom.  When up on the foil, the drag is so low you can hang on with one finger.

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When up on the foil, the drag is so low you can hang on with one finger.

Revealing comment on submerged foils in general - as compared to planing, in this case

 

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Who designed those SuperFoilers? Doug Lord? I've never seen a boat come to a stop so fast without actually hitting something. Looks like they all have a demented 'Herbie' that trips the foil Angle of Attack randomly so they come crashing down abruptly.

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21 minutes ago, Rasputin22 said:

Who designed those SuperFoilers? Doug Lord? I've never seen a boat come to a stop so fast without actually hitting something. Looks like they all have a demented 'Herbie' that trips the foil Angle of Attack randomly so they come crashing down abruptly.

Those boats do need more sorting out but dang - it’s off to a helluva start.

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If Nathan has such a hard time keeping the SF 'in the groove' then what chance does a 'mere mortal' have?  Too contrived for me and I'll take a 40 year old ROLAND 36 over these F1 looking bastards. I keep thinking of a platypus when I look at one. NFSquared. Neither Fish Nor Fowl... Sam Bradford is rolling over in his grave.

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28 minutes ago, Rasputin22 said:

Who designed those SuperFoilers? Doug Lord? I've never seen a boat come to a stop so fast without actually hitting something. Looks like they all have a demented 'Herbie' that trips the foil Angle of Attack randomly so they come crashing down abruptly.

From what I’ve been told, it’s still a bit of a work in progress - very ambitious, maybe too much so in a few areas, but I expect they will get it sorted. I think the potential is amazing. 

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Those seaplane sponsons are a joke! They thought that they would be flying all the time and ditched one of the oldest and more reliable concepts in the history of mankind venturing out on the water, ie a BOW! Steps, chines, and lifting strakes were used and all crammed into about 6 feet or so. 

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1 hour ago, Rasputin22 said:

Who designed those SuperFoilers? 

Er, coupla guys called M&M, IIRC

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56 minutes ago, Rasputin22 said:

Those seaplane sponsons are a joke! They thought that they would be flying all the time and ditched one of the oldest and more reliable concepts in the history of mankind venturing out on the water, ie a BOW! Steps, chines, and lifting strakes were used and all crammed into about 6 feet or so. 

Chopping the front off of things is where all the action is in my world - but it can make things umm a little ‘exciting’!

Having said that, I think the long central hull is designed to do the heavy lifting, bow wise - just like the proposed AC75, which has no amas at all.

 

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Bouyancy from displacement is cheap and can usually be depended on to work. Looks like the SF works as well or better in some conditions with both sponson foils down. That should be a clue that something is not quite right. M&M's new foiling tri is four point foiling I think. 

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What's the idea with the trapezes?

'Cause the crews are used to them? For the spectacle? To match the 18s?

Why not just make it wider and get rid of that extra complexity?

"Pimp my tri!"

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5 hours ago, nav said:

What's the idea with the trapezes?

'Cause the crews are used to them? For the spectacle? To match the 18s?

Why not just make it wider and get rid of that extra complexity?

"Pimp my tri!"

what's the point of grinders on ac50's, just put batteries on them

whats the point of flight control, just put auto ride height

what's the point of lots of things, the superfoilers were made to be a spectacle, the trapeze adds more of an extreme look that makes the public want to watch it.

why don't we just take out the grinders on the ac75, a Lithium ion battery the size of a shoebox could do the same job

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On 26/03/2018 at 11:27 AM, surfsailor said:

Chopping the front off of things is where all the action is in my world - but it can make things umm a little ‘exciting’!

Having said that, I think the long central hull is designed to do the heavy lifting, bow wise - just like the proposed AC75, which has no amas at all.

 

Which is all well and good except that when they drop off the foils they invariably heel to leeward and oops no bow there, complete wipeout! Happens at least once per race to some poor bastard.

Still they are pretty awesome to watch ugly or otherwise, they definitely need to look at the rigging on an AC50 though, that stay noise on the runs has got to be pretty annoying after a while.

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10 hours ago, nav said:

What's the idea with the trapezes?

'Cause the crews are used to them? For the spectacle? To match the 18s?

Why not just make it wider and get rid of that extra complexity?

"Pimp my tri!"

I think the best position to sail a boat from is on trapeze. Most comfy, furthermost from centre line, looks exciting, greater physical challenge.

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On 3/26/2018 at 10:27 AM, Rasputin22 said:

Those seaplane sponsons are a joke! They thought that they would be flying all the time and ditched one of the oldest and more reliable concepts in the history of mankind venturing out on the water, ie a BOW! Steps, chines, and lifting strakes were used and all crammed into about 6 feet or so. 

Right, they got it all wrong with this previous world speed record holder too.

l'hydroptere copy.jpg

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2 hours ago, Boybland said:

Which is all well and good except that when they drop off the foils they invariably heel to leeward and oops no bow there, complete wipeout! Happens at least once per race to some poor bastard.

Still they are pretty awesome to watch ugly or otherwise, they definitely need to look at the rigging on an AC50 though, that stay noise on the runs has got to be pretty annoying after a while.

To me, pitch and roll are two separate issues - pitch directly impacts the lift from the foils, roll not so much. Once they get roll under control, the long center hull should provide a clean recovery from pitch issues (nose diving, for example).

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2 hours ago, Boybland said:

Which is all well and good except that when they drop off the foils they invariably heel to leeward and oops no bow there, complete wipeout! Happens at least once per race to some poor bastard.

Still they are pretty awesome to watch ugly or otherwise, they definitely need to look at the rigging on an AC50 though, that stay noise on the runs has got to be pretty annoying after a while.

i thought that the noise was from the foils?

idk though

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4 hours ago, Groucho Marx said:

Right, they got it all wrong with this previous world speed record holder too.

l'hydroptere copy.jpg

Really wide,  no trapezes (& still looks comfortable) = someone understood the concept :D

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Right Marx, move those sponsons on Hydroptere aft about 25' to even be close to the SF proportions and see what happens at 50 knots! Even then the surface piercing foils of Hydroptere would be far less likely to suddenly cavitate and drop you on your face.

    And I thought you knew a thing or two about foilers. At least you have had a go at it a couple of times and you should not be such a SF fanboy. 

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About that super foiler finish of the last heat.  Which rules were they sailing under?  The blue boat had audio of "nice dial up", while the red one protested them for not holding their course.  Could be the refs had money on the blue boat, or they were using rules like the AC where you hunt the other guy.

 

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2 hours ago, david r said:

About that super foiler finish of the last heat.  Which rules were they sailing under?  The blue boat had audio of "nice dial up", while the red one protested them for not holding their course.  Could be the refs had money on the blue boat, or they were using rules like the AC where you hunt the other guy.

 

it was pretty insignificant in the scheme of things in the end. euroflex wouldn't of been overtaken by another boat if they copped the penalty so the results would stand

as for the call itself, i have been on an umpires boat and we sure didn't have audio. there is usually only one so it could of been monitering he other boats or just not seeing the dial down

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Thanks for responding.  I looks like ac type rules also are trickling into fleet racing if it's now ok to aim at the other boats as long as you don't get caught.

I don't see why the blue boat did not just hold his course.  He had everything to loose with that dial up. The third boat (pavement) boat was only 37 seconds behind, and if they got passed by the third boat whilst doing a penalty turn, they would not win the series.

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I was very involved in windsurfing when it hit its big growth spurt as the short boards and fully battened sails emerged. The sport went from teak booms and roto molded pig shaped boards to Carbon FIber, Kevlar/Mylar, fully planing in no time at all and it was an exciting era. The 'gear race' got pretty out of hand resulting in a big financial commitment to stay competitive. I went back to beach cat/one design catamaran racing and then when the kite surfing came out I pretty much forgot about windsurfing. Just ran across this video that shows well just how charging surfsailing is these days. Not sure how Jean Claude VanDamme got into this vid but it is pretty funny.

 

That opening scene with the laid over bottom turn blows my mind! That is probably a 16' mast...  Enjoy.

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Sorry, it's not trickle down but trickle up from the Moth.

Sunnucks Vampire won Round Houat with T foils and wand.

Interestingly the AC75 has some kind of T foils too...

The Vampire were flying above 30 kts on flat water but used conventional straight boards on waves.

image.thumb.jpeg.daa17ffe160bfb8ca855fba5ddff18bb.jpeg

https://www.sail-world.com/news/204763/Vampires-flying-the-flag-at-Eurocat-2018

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On 02/05/2018 at 4:50 AM, Tornado-Cat said:

Sorry, it's not trickle down but trickle up from the Moth.

Even as an ex–Mothie, I still think contraptions like swing–up foils and wands look like overly complex kludges. There is a simplicity to J and Z foils that is lacking in most other approaches that rely on one or more active mechanical, hydraulic or electrical systems that are at lest partially, if not wholly, automated.

I don't see a system like the Vampire as evolution of the Moth T/wand system, more a bastardisation of it. If Z foils had been allowed per the Burvile/Pivac Moth and had Moth foils developed similarly to the A Class (but without the inset–from–the–top restriction), I wonder if T foils would have their current status.

While the AC50 Class L foils required sophisticated automation and hydraulic systems, they seemed to be developing in a way that simpler versions could be adopted for less bleeding edge applications, i.e. they might actually trickle down, but not widely. I can't see the Vampire system being any more widely adopted than centreline T foils on monohulls have been.

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11 minutes ago, RobG said:

Even as an ex–Mothie, I still think contraptions like swing–up foils and wands look like overly complex kludges. There is a simplicity to J and Z foils that is lacking in most other approaches that rely on one or more active mechanical, hydraulic or electrical systems that are at lest partially, if not wholly, automated.

I don't see a system like the Vampire as evolution of the Moth T/wand system, more a bastardisation of it. If Z foils had been allowed per the Burvile/Pivac Moth and had Moth foils developed similarly to the A Class (but without the inset–from–the–top restriction), I wonder if T foils would have their current status.

While the AC50 Class L foils required sophisticated automation and hydraulic systems, they seemed to be developing in a way that simpler versions could be adopted for less bleeding edge applications, i.e. they might actually trickle down, but not widely. I can't see the Vampire system being any more widely adopted than centreline T foils on monohulls have been.

Your comments are interesting because the Vampire goes to regular boards when the water is too choppy. The question is to know if the future is L or T foils. But present L foils are as tricky as T, so the T may have more advantages.

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I'm thinking more like how wing masts are treated. They're seen as an enhancement where the pros and cons are considered and not every wing mast has to be at the absolute bleeding edge. Foils seem to be the opposite: every system is judged by how close it is to the extreme limit of potential rather than a balance of overall benefit (there must be some sailing equivalent to the business triple bottom line).

That the Vampire has to change boards so radically for conditions I think proves the point, though perhaps it's no different to (and probably no more popular than) skiffs that have two or three rigs rather than a reefing main. I think only 12, 16 and 18 footers allow it and how numerous are they?

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