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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
floater

trickle down

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Good thing they didn't set the upper limit at 40 or 50 knots eh ? ET may have designed a tank instead of just a tractor :).

 

You apparently consider published NOAA data on actual winds for that time of year as BS because it doesn't support your argument. Got it.

 

Races scheduled to finish early afternoon ? Seems that was the plan all along and when grumpy pushed for published race times so as not to get "gamed" they were published well in advance of the series, and for all he bitched about this was not one of his ongoing list of complaints, but here it is ~ two years after the fact and you raise this as an argument. Whatever.

 

I think that pretty much summarizes the basis of all your arguments, trying to re-frame facts as BS.

 

You must live in a fairyland.

 

Shouldn't you be tracking the ADM case with your pal MSP ?

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All that name calling, without a leg to stand on.

 

The change to published race times was one of a series of changes instituted after the second team with an under-designed boat crashed.

 

Socialism in sailing management 101....

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.

 

You apparently consider published NOAA data on actual winds for that time of year as BS because it doesn't support your argument. Got it.

Another swing, another miss.

NOAA data is not the point. Fact is that races have been cancelled because the wind was not within the new limits.

 

Even with early afternoon races, would they had all been run within the initial protocol limits, results would have been different.

That will not prevent you from trolling though.

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Try again bird brain.

 

ET's design was based on the protocol limits, as was OTUSA from the beginning.

 

You want to relegate the discussion to revised wind limits, go back to LR's insistence that the limit be reduced to 20 knots by Bertelli otherwise he refused to race in the LVS. They were subsequently set to a limit that all teams agreed upon, along with the start times.

 

I believe OTUSA proposed to increase the limits and ET declined.

 

Your argument is BS.

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Swallower it's you claiming that Otusa was clever to design for a narrow wind range rather than that which the Protocol demanded. Unfortunately for your (simplistic 20/20 hindsight based) argument, that wind range (which you claim was predictable) was exceeded (+ & -) on many occasions before, (OB1 crash!) and during the Match period. It was only the last minute narrowing of the allowable wind range, the revised (more conservative) wind measurement protocols, the addition of tidal adjustments, the revised start times and the pointless race time limits that created the happy 'coincidence' of matching OB2's narrowed range. Clever? Only if the opposition let you get away with it. Sustainable from a 'sporting property' :( point of view? Not according to RC when the original limits were set. Necessary? Only for the teams with under designed boats. Sportsmanlike? Hardly.

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Unfortunately you and TC have latched on to an argument you can't win, just like Herbie.

 

Never said OTUSA was clever about this, or even lucky. While ET boasted early on about their heavy air sailing prowess and used their 2500 lb Dell computer to design a tractor (which everyone seems to agree with), which was probably sub optimal in the likely wind range of the event. To highlight the ridiculousness of your arguments, which I find amusing;

 

1. Race time limits were always part of the plan to accommodate TV schedules, to which all teams agreed when they signed the protocol. Maybe you missed the memo. Why didn't you bitch at the time instead of after the fact ?

 

2. ET's partner in crime is the one who initially demanded lower wind limits, to which all teams ultimately agreed to, along with the current factor, or did you miss this too ? Why didn't you bitch at the time ? Because grumpy went along with them ?

 

3. It was initially thought that ET had a better performing "tractor" in heavier winds. The exact opposite proved true. So who exactly was the beneficiary of reduced wind limits ? And exactly who was it that instigated them ? It's really not that hard to figure this one out nav. Just pull your head out of your ass and look at the facts for a change.

 

4. If OTUSA optimized their design for the likely wind conditions of the event, it appears you've confused cleverness with common sense. Not too smart are you ?

 

5. Why is it that grumpy wasn't complaining about all of these issues, he bitched about everything else ?

 

 

Just more sour grapes from a poor loser. Grow a pair and deal with it.

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1. Race time limits were always part of the plan to accommodate TV schedules, to which all teams agreed when they signed the protocol. Maybe you missed the memo. Why didn't you bitch at the time instead of after the fact ?

 

As long as they had the wide, 'required for TV', 28 knot wind range they could rightfully claim that there would be no start delays and their 'product' had to fit the proscribed TV slot so a 40 minute max race made some $ense (to RC)

 

Once they had reduced the effective range to about 10 knots, delays and cancellations were inevitable. Funny how little difference they seemed to make to anyone in the end? So the TV scheduling was out the window, the 40 mins often ran well over an hour due to start delays, so what would it have mattered to have a 45 minute race?

 

2. ET's partner in crime is the one who initially demanded lower wind limits, to which all teams ultimately agreed to, along with the current factor, or did you miss this too ? Why didn't you bitch at the time ? Because grumpy went along with them ?

 

LR changed their mind again well before the decision was taken, why endlessly pretend otherwise? Why do you disregard the report that OTUSA demanded a 20kn max, ETNZ said if it had to be lowered at all they thought 25 was right and IM 'compromised' on 23kn - the added a bunch of new clauses that really made it 20 anyway

 

I did in fact point out that the creep being added on top of the simple agreed new wind limits would have big repercussions

 

4. If OTUSA optimized their event, for their design.......

 

3&5 Undecipherable nonsense and the ritual abuse

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well nav it clearly appears you will be justifying all the possible reasons why the event was unfair and ET lost despite them agreeing to the changes that were implemented, for which you have no argument with anyone except grumpy. Take it up with him or carry on for the rest of your life dragging all your Samsonite baggage along with you.

 

You and TC seem to be the sole survivors with axes to grind, so grind away - it will not change history, Herbie included even when the facts are openly handed to you :)

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The GC has done it! No denying it - the boat can fly.

 

Luna Rosa executes flying jibe - and reportedly light wind condition:

 

http://gifmaker.me/PlayGIFAnimation.php?folder=2014052604oZ2SOgfJB97wG8124HtaBR&file=output_Xo1nQo.gif

Impressive.

 

Related:

Luna Rossa takes part in the first event of the GC32 European Tour

 

edit: more about the GC event is on the FP

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The outdated EX40 design might push more teams over to the GC32?

Would be cool if they would just use this design instead of the AC45, wasn't Slingsby sailing one a couple of weeks ago as well?

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The outdated EX40 design might push more teams over to the GC32?

Would be cool if they would just use this design instead of the AC45, wasn't Slingsby sailing one a couple of weeks ago as well?

Its ironic - but it would seem the GC32 is a more relevant platform for AC development than the AC45.

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^ that said - it could be that Artemis still working on their 45 - keeping an eye on it. The boat is is unbelievably fast downwind in big breeze.

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Trickle-up...does the 62 need a wing?

 

How much simpler (and more satisfying for established sailing industry groups!) to have gone with soft sails.

 

Probably would have killed the upwind abilities, at least to start with?

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^

 

I'm sure it's not intentional, nav - but the "soft sail for the AC62" dead horse is mine :)

 

I think the latest GC-32 developments, with PCJ stating both downwind anf upwind stable foiling, are a game changer. Flybes can be taken for granted, now all is needed to "bring back" soft mains is flying tacks. And of course soft mains can be reefed ..

To the point that this should really be investigated before the AC35 Rule is issued (no gennakers, electric winches for mainsheet only)

 

So although you can balance the steady moments with twist, you need to be on your toes because the tall rig will be twitchy.

And that with a logistical nightmare that's so expensive it'll be one-design ..

Forgive me if I insist, but what would then be the perceivable advantage over a (reefable) soft main? Loads on the platform are cheap to solve, mainsheet effort would indeed require going back to powered winches, to my mind the one determining factor would be speed of tacking: if this can be demonstrated to be in the same range thanks to new techniques (roll tacking or flying tacks), there's no rational justification for staying with a wing.

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Trickle-up...does the 62 need a wing?

 

How much simpler (and more satisfying for established sailing industry groups!) to have gone with soft sails.

 

Probably would have killed the upwind abilities, at least to start with?

to my (untutored) eye - the odd bit of gear on the GC32 is the boom.

 

Got used to the wing coming all the way to the deck.

 

If the boat is truly an apparent wind machine - FTTW - wouldn't it be more efficient to lose the boom - sheet from the clew - and bring the main down to the tramp?

 

That said - those black sails look good.

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The GC has done it! No denying it - the boat can fly.

 

Luna Rosa executes flying jibe - and reportedly light wind condition:

 

http://gifmaker.me/PlayGIFAnimation.php?folder=2014052604oZ2SOgfJB97wG8124HtaBR&file=output_Xo1nQo.gif

Using the hi-res images available, here's a quick hack to a viewer I wrote awhile back (AngularJS) that allows changing the animation speed or single step by selecting individual frames: http://wingo.com/sa/gc32_foil_tack/

 

Slider at bottom of page, buttons to choose between 'Position' or 'Delay'. Images are sized to 100% of screen width so shrink your browser window if too large.

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Thanks, PS-fun to fool with....

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The GC has done it! No denying it - the boat can fly.

 

Luna Rosa executes flying jibe - and reportedly light wind condition:

 

http://gifmaker.me/PlayGIFAnimation.php?folder=2014052604oZ2SOgfJB97wG8124HtaBR&file=output_Xo1nQo.gif

Using the hi-res images available, here's a quick hack to a viewer I wrote awhile back (AngularJS) that allows changing the animation speed or single step by selecting individual frames: http://wingo.com/sa/gc32_foil_tack/

 

Slider at bottom of page, buttons to choose between 'Position' or 'Delay'. Images are sized to 100% of screen width so shrink your browser window if too large.

Nice job...

Look at all those washing lines under the tramp, how do they expect to foil with that mess - were they not paying attention? ;)

 

XLOT: you're saying the question has been asked, I thought it might have been - so what's the consensus?

I mean the 62 is getting a wing, right?

But can you do a quick pros and cons anyway?

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^

 

You'll agree that "consensus" and "RC" don't belong in the same sentence ..

 

I thought I had outlined the quick pros and cons in those posts. The main issue as of today is the same that effectively led to hard wings for AC34 (other than the fact that with soft sails/foil assist/cheap cats it was feared the French would walk away with the Cup): ease/speed of tacking, especially with powerful i.e. wide boats, strong wind and/or choppy seas - a notorious issue with X40s, a soft main "luffing" much earlier than a wing.

Considering the unthinkable progress that AC34 saw however, it seems reasonable that this too would be solved. As I mentioned, roll tacks and the first inkling of foiling tacks are already there.

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Xlot

 

For me, you miss the real advantages of the wing. For me, No 1 is the vastly reduced loads. Go for a soft sail and you will need to build the boats significantly heavier to be able to withstand the gear needed to control the leach loads. You would also have far greater loads on runners and then there is the compression from the halyard. Besides the boats needing to be significantly stronger, you will also need to increase crew size and you would need to develop deck gear to take the loads without huge weight.

 

Although the wings proved to be expensive and time consuming to make, I think that overall they were no more expensive than soft sails and IMO, they were far, far better. I admit that initially I was skeptical and was very critical of the cost, but I think that going to a soft main would be a huge backward step, adding costs and making the boats slower.

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For me, you miss the real advantages of the wing. For me, No 1 is the vastly reduced loads. Go for a soft sail and you will need to build the boats significantly heavier to be able to withstand the gear needed to control the leach loads.

 

As I said, carbon is cheap and getting cheaper. Laying up a few more plies into an existing mold would be almost negligible in the grand scheme of things.

 

You would also have far greater loads on runners and then there is the compression from the halyard.

 

Not sure about the runners: tensioning the headstay/jib luff is the same with wing or soft main, no? And compression from the halyard - with halyard lock(s), of course - hasn't been an issue for spars for ages

 

you will also need to increase crew size and you would need to develop deck gear to take the loads without huge weight.

 

There is not the slightest doubt that powered (electric) winches would be needed, also taking into account that full foiling upwind requires constant sheet adjustment. I don't see this as sacrilege - in tune with the times rather, and copying F1 regenerative sheet easing could be developed and then trickle down ..

 

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Moth's, R-Class, C- Class (top X), kite foiling, and probably something else I've forgotten about have been fleet racing for quite some time. A-class is mixed and kind of foiling but still at best it might be, "First foiling fleet race for cats over 20 feet LOA?"

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So, the GC32 looked wide, and it is, just under 1m narrower than the AC45. Good amount of sail area, too. Already hitting 35knts. Can either of the AC45 or X40 hang with it when up on foils?

 

AC45

  • length: 13.45 m (44.1 ft)
  • beam: 6.90 m (22.6 ft)
  • weight: 1,290–1,320 kg (2,840–2,910 lb)
  • maximum draught : 2.7 m (8 ft 10 in)
  • air draught : 21.5 m (71 ft) without extension, 25.5 m (84 ft) with extension
  • wing: 20 m (66 ft) 83.5 m2 (899 sq ft) wing element with three slotted flaps
  • extension: 4 m (13 ft) high, 8.7 m2 (94 sq ft) area
  • jib area: 48 m2 (520 sq ft), manufactured by a sail loft of team's choice
  • gennaker area: 125 m2 (1,350 sq ft), manufactured by a sail loft of team's choice

 

 

GC32 Specs:

LENGTH OVERALL: 12.00M

LENGTH HULL: 10.00M

BEAM: 6.00M

WEIGHT: 750 KG

DRAFT UPWIND: 2.10M

DRAFT DOWNWIND: 1.60M

MAST LENGTH: 16.50M

SPIN. POLE LENGTH: 6.60M

MAINSAIL AREA: 60.00 M2

 

X40 Specs:

Length Overall LOA: 40ft (12.19m)
Beam: 26ft (7.92m)
Displacement: 1250kg
Mast height: 62ft (18.89m)
Main Sail Area: 75 m²
Gennaker Area: 78 m2
Jib Area: 25 m²

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Slingsby talks up the 32 - which looks super cool. But somehow, I don't get the impression that he's planning to trade in his 45 just yet:

 

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I caught a little of the live action today, shown on the FP. Too bad it was so light but Clean did a nice enough job of announcing and I quite enjoyed the broadcast - which included even a few onboard cams. Will try tune in earlier tomorrow, hopefully see some foiling too.

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Thanks stinger, glad you are enjoying. Slingsby will be in the booth with me for the first race today, then Minoprio in the 5th race, with Martin Fischer, designer of the GC32 in the middle.

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Been watching replays and the occasional live broadcasts. It's fun but I hope a better weather system follows this one soon.

 

Having Chris Draper in the booth during one of the races shown was great - he's very good with a mike.

 

Nice job, Clean, good 'tude and atmosphere.

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Great job, Clean.

 

Interesting that they are adopting the reaching start. I liked the GC racing course better than the AC one, with the start and finish using the same line. I'm trying to remember, was the ACWS course more like this, too?

 

Has the XSS used a similar course?

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From a piece about the JP Morgan-sponsored Round the Island Race

--

 

Hoping to break Sir Ben's Multihull record is the recently announced GC32 Team Richard Mille (GBR1). The talented multihull sailors who hope to break this record are led by the helm Paul Campbell James, member of the AC34 Luna Rossa Challenge and past winner of the Extreme Sailing Series. He will be joined by fellow AC34 Luna Rossa team mate, Nick Hutton; previous winning skipper of the Extreme Sailing Series, Pete Cumming, and GC32 expert Adam Piggott.

 

http://www.bymnews.com/news/newsDetails.php?id=133453

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from LR at http://www.lunarossachallenge.com/en/news/luna-rossa-wins-the-first-event-of-the-gc32-european-tour-32-foot-full-foiling-catamarans

--

 

Luna Rossa finished in first place 10 of the 13 races sailed, beating, among the others, its direct opponent: AEZ Sailing Team with the Australian Tom Slingsby, strategist of Oracle Team USA during the 34th Americas Cup.

 

Chris Draper, helmsman of Luna Rossa, commented: We are very happy with the result, the average speed at which we sailed and the boat handling. The GC32s are very challenging full foiling catamarans, especially from a physical point of view. The speed is remarkable: with only 10 knots of breeze, we exceeded 30 knots of speed. This event was a great workout in view of the 35th Americas Cup; we have measure ourselves against competitive teams on short race courses, on catamarans that are similar, in some respects, to the Americas Cup Class boats. This victory is a confirmation of the good work that the team is doing in Cagliari.

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Great job, Clean.

 

Interesting that they are adopting the reaching start. I liked the GC racing course better than the AC one, with the start and finish using the same line. I'm trying to remember, was the ACWS course more like this, too?

 

Has the XSS used a similar course?

XSS uses this course sometimes, it all depends on the venue. I think we may move the start/finish line to the top of the course rather than the middle, but it's all a bit of an experiment at the moment as you can imagine. Glad you enjoyed the coverage; we have a LOT of work to do but I'm more excited about this class than anything in ages.

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New to me

--

 

 

May 29, 2014Löick Peyron and Iain Percy surprise GC32 Racing with a visit and sit down with us to discuss this relatively stable cat as future of multihull fleet racing, the possibility of as a fun cross-trainer for America's Cup Teams, and a brief history of multihull sailing. We hope you enjoy this as much as we did.

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New to me

--

 

May 29, 2014Löick Peyron and Iain Percy surprise GC32 Racing with a visit and sit down with us to discuss this relatively stable cat as future of multihull fleet racing, the possibility of as a fun cross-trainer for America's Cup Teams, and a brief history of multihull sailing. We hope you enjoy this as much as we did.

=========================

Great, thanks!

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^ Clean mentions 4 more boats coming in containers; Percy suggests AR is there to consider AR joining the GC32 series.

 

me, I could see several AC teams getting into this full-on; although perhaps also, or even instead, with SL33's in the case especially with LR in Cagliari, and with ETNZ given their already-good SL33 depth.

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from LR at http://www.lunarossachallenge.com/en/news/luna-rossa-wins-the-first-event-of-the-gc32-european-tour-32-foot-full-foiling-catamarans

--

 

The speed is remarkable: with only 10 knots of breeze, we exceeded 30 knots of speed.

Holy shit - can't wait until they get some breeze. Wow.

Yes, this event's drifting conditions sucked for highlighting foilers - really bad luck on that front. One of them will get the big breeze for sure, can't wait. Kiel is next, right?

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^ / ^^

 

It seems to me Martin Fischer opted (rightly) for "low speed", all-around, heave stable foils - likely to be draggier at high speeds though, I wouldn't expect much more than the previously clocked 36 kts - how blasé can one get ..

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from LR at http://www.lunarossachallenge.com/en/news/luna-rossa-wins-the-first-event-of-the-gc32-european-tour-32-foot-full-foiling-catamarans

--

 

The speed is remarkable: with only 10 knots of breeze, we exceeded 30 knots of speed.

Holy shit - can't wait until they get some breeze. Wow.

Yes, this event's drifting conditions sucked for highlighting foilers - really bad luck on that front. One of them will get the big breeze for sure, can't wait. Kiel is next, right?

 

I already applied for vacation @ work :D .

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Anathema to me that the AC34 proto created these 'trickle-down' opportunities for new foiling cats, while the AC35 proto looks to ban teams from competing in them - not to mention delaying a re-write of the AC34 Rule to include the technology.

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^

 

Not certain how much "flying" was involved. 08.51.37 which is slower than a 4KSB does it most years. A windless race in what's so far been a painfully light-wind summer.

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^

 

Not certain how much "flying" was involved. 08.51.37 which is slower than a 4KSB does it most years. A windless race in what's so far been a painfully light-wind summer.

The overall winner was a 40 year old Folkboat btw which shows you don't have to spend millions on the latest and greatest to win a race like this :)

round-the-island-race-2014-3.jpg

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Strictly there isn't an overall winner but the Gold Roman Bowl goes to the overall IRC winner, IRC classes being around half the fleet. Most years that goes to a boat from the slowest IRC class, the reason being that starting last (some hours after the first start), they get the least amount of foul tide and usually, the better breeze.

Gold Roman Bowl and winner.

 

rtir-donald-family-e1403516014753.jpg

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Just one thing. See the Spinnaker Tower in the background? If that photo was from the Round the Island race, they'd be going 180 degrees in the wrong direction.

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"'Insane' foiling boats force changes in sailing circuit"

www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/sailing/10930335/Insane-foiling-boats-force-changes-in-sailing-circuit.html

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A cat update - Glenn Ashby taking no prisoners at 2014 Europeans:

 

http://www.a-cat.org/

 

And I guess his ride might qualify as trickle down as it's looking distinctly more TNZ''ish than the competition:

attachicon.gifimage.jpg

 

From:

 

https://m.facebook.com/mischa.heemskerk.3/posts/10152553308407958

 

 

 

looks like new drooPtiP foils...

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Just one thing. See the Spinnaker Tower in the background? If that photo was from the Round the Island race, they'd be going 180 degrees in the wrong direction.

 

That gallery was training the day before the RTI. They still crossed the line first overall, but light and shite meant not even in the ballpark as Big Ben's record run in the AC45. Next year!

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^ / ^^

 

It seems to me Martin Fischer opted (rightly) for "low speed", all-around, heave stable foils - likely to be draggier at high speeds though, I wouldn't expect much more than the previously clocked 36 kts - how blasé can one get ..

 

we haven't even seen the kind of 25 knots/flat water conditions that you'd need for a real high-end run, the new sails are just being developed; might be a bit premature for that call.

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Clean, what was the word on the dagger foil issue on the one boat? Was it a break, separation, other?

 

Turns out that 8 big ass stainless bolts just wasn't enough, and they sheared off. All foils have been converted to bigger bolts, I believe. Kiel in two weeks!

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Can you cut and paste that one Stinger? My Telegraph is over quota to read it.

sure, here's a crude paste from

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/sailing/10930335/Insane-foiling-boats-force-changes-in-sailing-circuit.html

 

'Insane' foiling boats force changes in sailing circuit The arrival of 'insane' racing boats as seen in last year's America's Cup is forcing organisers of sailing events like Extreme Sailing Series to rethink their future
ESSGV_2956754c.jpg
The fleet of Extreme 40s take to the stadium sailing race course in St Petersburg

12:23PM BST 27 Jun 2014

comments.gifComment

The spaceship has landed and this one, in the shape of spectacularly fast foiling boats first seen in the America’s Cup last year, is forcing the brains behind sailing events such as the Extreme Sailing Series to rethink the future.

Before the AC72 was introduced to the world in San Francisco last year and set hearts and pulses racing with a rocket like thrust that whacked up the speeds from 25 knots to 40 in less than ten seconds, sailing high performance catamarans like the Extreme 40 was as good as it got.

America’s Cup teams used the Extreme circuit as a platform for learning how to take corners at high speed.

But that was before foils and the world is now a different place.

The best sailors only want to race on foils because, according to Freddie Carr, the British America’s Cup sailor who raced on Luna Rossa in the last America’s Cup, foiling is an ‘insane’ experience.

“It’s a crazy sensation,” said Carr who recently joined Sir Ben Ainslie’s British campaign for the next Cup.

“The thing you notice first is the G-force. You are hanging onto the pedestal grinding and you feel yourself getting thrown over the side of the boat as you go from 25 to 40 knots in 8 seconds and basically start flying. You have no idea about the speeds until you look behind you and see the chase boats going flat out trying to keep up.”

Carr is not alone in seeing foiling as the way forward. Extreme 40 skipper Paul Campbell-James was also on Luna Rossa in San Francisco and won the Round the Island Race last week in a new boat, the GC32, which appears to do 30 knots in a mere puff of wind.

The GC32 was launched two years ago and already, there are said to be 45 boats on order with a new European circuit set to kick off in July.

“It might turn things upside down because the boats are awesome and you have all the top professional sailors involved because the boats are so awesome. In a perfect world, the Extreme circuit would be raced in GC32s but the advantage of the Extreme 40 is they are simple and we had a lot of break downs in the GC32s.

“Nothing beats getting 12 Extreme 40s on a race course that’s built for tiny Optimist dinghies but the boats are now ten years old and no longer as exciting as they were.”

Extreme organisers, who had the idea of bringing sailing into city centre ‘stadiums’ in rivers and harbours long before the America’s Cup highlighted it, are well aware of the need to update their boats to keep the top sailors engaged.

But foiling at 35 knots in a venue such as Singapore where the race course is surrounded by tower blocks and shopping malls, would be impossible, says Extreme Sailing Series event director Andy Tourell.

“The world is going foiling and we are always looking at whether there is an evolution to suit us in future years but currently the 40s suit the purpose,” said Tourell.

“It is fundamental the sailors are excited by the boats but to go foiling, we would have to increase the size of the race course to accommodate the higher speeds and that would compromise the stadium racing concept which is core to our circuit.

“But we are looking at a dual mode where we could have one day of foiling offshore and three days of non-foiling on stadium courses. These X40s boats will almost certainly remain for next year but the dual mode option is really exciting because it achieves the balance of moving with the times while staying true to our roots.

“At some point a redevelopment or transition will definitely be needed but whether that is 2015 or a year later remains to be seen.”

For the moment, the Extreme 40 circuit remains the leading one in Europe and American skipper Morgan Larsen of Alinghi is once again on top of the leaderboard after a strong first day’s performance at St Petersburg.

His long running dual with Leigh McMillan, skipper of two times series winner The Wave, Muscat looks set to dominate this Act as the two experienced campaigners find ways of getting round the Neva river course, marked by a strong current, in very light winds.

After four races, Alinghi was ahead of the Omani boat by nine points but with winds too light to get the boats across the tide, racing on Friday was suspended until the breeze picked up.

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"'Insane' foiling boats force changes in sailing circuit"

www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/sailing/10930335/Insane-foiling-boats-force-changes-in-sailing-circuit.html

 

I'm not seeing that they can't have foiling boats in the small arenas that they do the XSS in. I tend to think they are just trying to buy time before they have to ditch the x40s and make the major investment in new boats. I just don't see how that league is going to be anything other than a let down after watching the GC32s racing on similar courses.

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Two new foiling cats will debut tomorrow Round Texel: Nacra 20 and Marstrom/Heemskerk 20. The Flying Phantom will be there too. I guess smart money is on the FP - but Mr. Heemskerk says he has been practicing foiling jibes in this!

 

post-18173-0-27433000-1403882854_thumb.jpg

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Where did you see that, floater?

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"'Insane' foiling boats force changes in sailing circuit"

www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/sailing/10930335/Insane-foiling-boats-force-changes-in-sailing-circuit.html

 

I'm not seeing that they can't have foiling boats in the small arenas that they do the XSS in. I tend to think they are just trying to buy time before they have to ditch the x40s and make the major investment in new boats. I just don't see how that league is going to be anything other than a let down after watching the GC32s racing on similar courses.

 

I'll let you know from Kiel. Saw the EXSS there a couple of years ago and am looking forwards to mid of July for a comparison with the CG32s.

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from here, pasted in case it is also unavailable to some

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/general/sailing/extreme-sailing-series-2014-americas-cup-cost-concern-is-undercurrent-in-st-petersburg-9569180.html

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Extreme Sailing Series 2014: Americas Cup cost concern is undercurrent in St Petersburg

 

Running the next Americas Cup in two venues half a world apart could cost Britains challenger, Ben Ainslie Racing, and others an extra $5m. One of the sticking points in the negotiations between the Australians, who helped draw up the rules, was an insistence by the American defender that the qualifiers should be staged early in 2017, and that means finding a southern hemisphere venue.

 

The top four qualifiers would then go into a semi-final knockout at the venue in which the cup match would be staged. What are said to be the remaining three candidates Bermuda, Chicago, and San Diego are all in the northern hemisphere.

 

The teams could, therefore, have to establish bases in the qualifier venue Sydney will be keen to pick up that job for up to six months. Then the whole shooting match needs to be transferred to the match venue in time for a June/July finale. Ainslie is, outwardly, relaxed saying that he is happy to work with all sides in order to make progress.

 

In St. Petersburg, where light air racing in the Extreme Sailing Series was proving very difficult to stage, Ben Ainslie is competing, as is Frances Franck Cammas, who would like to head a French challenge, as is team New Zealand and not only Team Australia but its boss, Iain Murray. The big fella ran last years racing in San Francisco and then moved to the other side of the negotiating table from his old boss, Russell Coutts. Murray knows more tweaks could yet be made to the AC set-up.

 

Among important changes already made is an agreement that teams will be allowed to take part in other racing events, though they still need to notify the cup holder, Oracle.

 

The entry window for 2017 in theory closes on 8 August this year. Others taking a close interest include the St. Petersburg Yacht Club, which could be problematic at a time of U.S. sanctions against Russia, and the Chinese, who may recruit management skills from the Oracle team and from New Zealand to help them organise.

 

Also problematical was Extreme Sailing Series racing on the Neva River. Only two more races were possible but they were enough for defending champion Leigh McMillan in The Wave, Muscat to take over the lead from arch-rival Morgan Larson and Alinghi. Sir Ben moved up a place to fifth and Nathan Wilmot, also an Olympic gold medallist at the helm of Team Australias GAC Pindar, moved up a place to eighth. The boss would approve, but waits to see if applause will be in order.

 

Said Sir Ben: Its a tricky place to sail, like they all are on this series. But, its beautiful and its very special to be racing on the Neva river - a pretty unique experience for all of us. The racing has been a real challenge but we are going OK so far. Hopefully we will keep moving forward and improving in the final two days.

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"an insistence by the American defender that the qualifiers should be staged early in 2017, and that means finding a southern hemisphere venue ....

 

.... Then the whole shooting match needs to be transferred to the match venue in time for a June/July finale.

 

:( It's confirmed, then - but what's the rationale?

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^ Also, what happens to the qualifiers if there are four or fewer challengers? Do the challengers and defender still race to see who gets the point to take into the AC match, or is the qualifier series canned? It is likely (certain?) that entries will close prior to the selection of a venue for the qualifiers, so contractual issues are unlikely to be a concern.

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The spaceship has landed and this one, in the shape of spectacularly fast foiling boats first seen in the America’s Cup last year, is forcing the brains behind sailing events such as the Extreme Sailing Series to rethink the future.

 

There was a long discussion here about just how revolutionary and/or game changing getting the 72s up on three foils was.

Can we reach a conclusion on that now, or not?

Other 'revolutions' in sailing have been patented, with usage payments (and all sorts of legal bullshit) eventuating. Did ETNZ 'miss the boat' to control 'their technology' (and fund future campaigns)?

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The spaceship has landed and this one, in the shape of spectacularly fast foiling boats first seen in the Americas Cup last year, is forcing the brains behind sailing events such as the Extreme Sailing Series to rethink the future.

 

There was a long discussion here about just how revolutionary and/or game changing getting the 72s up on three foils was.

Can we reach a conclusion on that now, or not?

Other 'revolutions' in sailing have been patented, with usage payments (and all sorts of legal bullshit) eventuating. Did ETNZ 'miss the boat' to control 'their technology' (and fund future campaigns)?

always figured it strange they didn't patent the TNZ foil - but I know little about it. Would have been pretty clever though - sue Oracle for patent infringement and win the cup!

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Mischa:

"The Blue machine is doing her job. Working on the foiling Jibe! Still a huge machine to control. Eduard is making hours and learning quick(he has to if he wants to keep up with the boat)"

10367122_10152546311207958_1591229889381
10482538_10152546311237958_8094832831097

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The spaceship has landed and this one, in the shape of spectacularly fast foiling boats first seen in the Americas Cup last year, is forcing the brains behind sailing events such as the Extreme Sailing Series to rethink the future.

 

There was a long discussion here about just how revolutionary and/or game changing getting the 72s up on three foils was.

Can we reach a conclusion on that now, or not?

Other 'revolutions' in sailing have been patented, with usage payments (and all sorts of legal bullshit) eventuating. Did ETNZ 'miss the boat' to control 'their technology' (and fund future campaigns)?

always figured it strange they didn't patent the TNZ foil - but I know little about it. Would have been pretty clever though - sue Oracle for patent infringement and win the cup!

 

MSP and his legal advisor TC "Any yacht" are ready and waiting.

 

If they only knew how to file a case.

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The spaceship has landed and this one, in the shape of spectacularly fast foiling boats first seen in the America’s Cup last year, is forcing the brains behind sailing events such as the Extreme Sailing Series to rethink the future.

 

There was a long discussion here about just how revolutionary and/or game changing getting the 72s up on three foils was.

Can we reach a conclusion on that now, or not?

Other 'revolutions' in sailing have been patented, with usage payments (and all sorts of legal bullshit) eventuating. Did ETNZ 'miss the boat' to control 'their technology' (and fund future campaigns)?

 

I believe the rules state that a proprietary technology can only be used if it is accessible to all competitors. From a foiling standpoint TNZ's invention was/is a breakthru in foil/foil configuration design and a monumental achievement.

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from http://www.sail-world.com/USA/Round-Texel-Race---Peter-Vink-and-Mischa-de-Munck-finish-first/123846

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Several teams have converted their catamaran into a boat that, with little wind, comes up out of the water and flies on its daggers and rudders. This hydrofoil technology, as it is known, has been used in commercial shipping for many years, mainly by ferries. But since the advent of better materials (i.e. carbon fibre) and its abilities, it can now be applied to recreational boating. The best example of this technique could be seen during the America's Cup races in 2013. Vink had renowned agency Morelli Melvin design his S-shaped daggers for the Nacra 20 Carbon. The daggers are now in production and one can simply order them with their new boat. In short, the America's Cup technique has been used successfully during the Round Texel.

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^

Nice article. Too bad the video is in Dutch - has interview with Heemskerk (4th) and De Munck (1st).

 

This boat - pictured below - really is trickle down. Foils designed by M&M - in their first foiling cat design post AC34? Taking 1st in its debut is really quite impressive - ahead of 300 other beach cats, and 3 other Nacra 20's equipped with C foils. It looks like success for the notion of replacing a partial lift foil with a TNZ foil. This is what the GC32 did as well as the Nacra20:

 

post-18173-0-17878700-1403998760_thumb.jpg

 

If you look closely at the rudder - you will see the familiar T foil - and the third leg of a tripod - straight across AC34 technology.

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Even more interesting are the comments of Benjamin Amiot about the much smaller Phantom who has a big advance before hitting a sand bank. Could that mean that Martin Fisher foils are more advanced than Morelli's ones ? or that their boat is more fine tuned ?

 

Flashback on the race with Benjamin Amiot

“The briefing was held this morning at 07:00 am, for a start planned at 09:00am. This early start was due to forecasts that were indicating a wind drop for midday. The start was launched with around 15 knots of wind; very quickly we were ahead of the fleet sailing downwind and flying full speed without gennaker leading the two other flying catamarans sailed by Vink and Heemskerk. Heading North along the Island we kept the lead, with a slight shift as compared to the coast and the head of the fleet. We hoist back the gennaker to finish this leg to the first gate at the North of the Texel Island. We consolidated or lead during the reaching leg on the North part of the Island, it was super fast as the sea was very flat, I think top speeds were around 28 knots. Unfortunately, just before the North-East gate we hit a sand bank damaging the rake system on the port side. It took us some minutes to fix the issue and find a safe way back outside of shallow water. We loose quite some time, and came back on the racecourse at the top of the fleet. Unfortunately, just after the gate at the beginning of the upwind leg we broke the hook of the mainsail leading us to abandon the race.

We are a little bit disappointed, but sailing is a mechanical sport, and we know that it can happen.

We demonstrated today that the Flying Phantom is one of the most efficient foiling catamaran and were very happy to observe that in these conditions we were the fastest boat on water. We are now really looking forward to next year Round the Texel race where we will be able to comeback with a fleet of Flying Phantom”.