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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
floater

trickle down

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It's an A Class dilemma for sure. But it really doesn't matter because an easy to sail singlehander using UptiP foils is sure to come along and take advantage of the greatest foil and foil configuration ever developed for round-a-course multihulls. In terms of having to retract the windward board-Outteridge showed such a system(used with his "J" boards) in Australia not too long ago-he used it when racing. It doesn't really matter what the A Class does(except to them) because the cats out of the bag and there is no stopping the continued development. And a singlehander with UptiP foils is just a matter of time....

 

Nathan Outteridge talking about his boat setup:

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...But physics suggests that the TNZ solution should be faster - because, if you've got a lifting foil beneath your feet - it's got to reduce your righting moment.

 

All else being equal - bear with me here - having half a TNZ foil in the water beneath two hulls means you are lifting the boat from the centerline....

You're partly correct. I've been looking into what happens with two boards in the water. Vertical lift on the windward board does reduce the righting moment. However, the effect of leeway tends to shift the vertical load more to the leeward foil. This is more pronounced as the boat flies higher. Heeling to leeward also shifts load to the leeward foil, but tends to make the boat less stable in heave. When flying at a medium height (say, 300 - 500 mm) the righting moment isn't altogether different from a hull with straight boards, since the straight boards also reduce righting moment. The details change with the foil configuration, but the trends seem to be similar over a wide range of foil configurations (C, J, L).

 

One interesting thing with two boards is anhedral is stabilizing - at least within the restrictions of the A Class rule.

 

The righting moment picture could be changed drastically with some simple board controls. Port tack, neutral, starboard tack, switched as the crew moves across.

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...But physics suggests that the TNZ solution should be faster - because, if you've got a lifting foil beneath your feet - it's got to reduce your righting moment.

 

All else being equal - bear with me here - having half a TNZ foil in the water beneath two hulls means you are lifting the boat from the centerline....

You're partly correct. I've been looking into what happens with two boards in the water. Vertical lift on the windward board does reduce the righting moment. However, the effect of leeway tends to shift the vertical load more to the leeward foil. This is more pronounced as the boat flies higher. Heeling to leeward also shifts load to the leeward foil, but tends to make the boat less stable in heave. When flying at a medium height (say, 300 - 500 mm) the righting moment isn't altogether different from a hull with straight boards, since the straight boards also reduce righting moment. The details change with the foil configuration, but the trends seem to be similar over a wide range of foil configurations (C, J, L).

 

One interesting thing with two boards is anhedral is stabilizing - at least within the restrictions of the A Class rule.

 

The righting moment picture could be changed drastically with some simple board controls. Port tack, neutral, starboard tack, switched as the crew moves across.

This is interesting because it sort of supports what has been found in practice.In fact, until it gets pretty windy, it seems to be faster to have both boards down on an A while it doesn't seem to be slower in any conditions. Of course, this is early days. I suspect this is due to a number of factors, not least the limitations of how far inboard any part of the foiul can go which limits the amount of lift available. It seems that in lighter conditions, 2 boards down gets you foiling earlier than just one.

 

There is also an assumption that the stable flight achieved by boats like the Flying Phantom is faster than the relatively unstable flight achieved by the A's with their J and Z foils. I suspect that for the less skilled, this would be so but for those at the front of the fleet, the latter is faster because it produces less drag that V style boards. It is clear that the current development direction of A's doesn't have a lot to do with what was developed by ETNZ, but who knows where it will go from here with many people trying different approaches

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...But physics suggests that the TNZ solution should be faster - because, if you've got a lifting foil beneath your feet - it's got to reduce your righting moment.

 

All else being equal - bear with me here - having half a TNZ foil in the water beneath two hulls means you are lifting the boat from the centerline....

You're partly correct. I've been looking into what happens with two boards in the water. Vertical lift on the windward board does reduce the righting moment. However, the effect of leeway tends to shift the vertical load more to the leeward foil. This is more pronounced as the boat flies higher. Heeling to leeward also shifts load to the leeward foil, but tends to make the boat less stable in heave. When flying at a medium height (say, 300 - 500 mm) the righting moment isn't altogether different from a hull with straight boards, since the straight boards also reduce righting moment. The details change with the foil configuration, but the trends seem to be similar over a wide range of foil configurations (C, J, L).

 

One interesting thing with two boards is anhedral is stabilizing - at least within the restrictions of the A Class rule.

 

The righting moment picture could be changed drastically with some simple board controls. Port tack, neutral, starboard tack, switched as the crew moves across.

This is interesting because it sort of supports what has been found in practice.In fact, until it gets pretty windy, it seems to be faster to have both boards down on an A while it doesn't seem to be slower in any conditions. Of course, this is early days. I suspect this is due to a number of factors, not least the limitations of how far inboard any part of the foiul can go which limits the amount of lift available. It seems that in lighter conditions, 2 boards down gets you foiling earlier than just one.

 

There is also an assumption that the stable flight achieved by boats like the Flying Phantom is faster than the relatively unstable flight achieved by the A's with their J and Z foils. I suspect that for the less skilled, this would be so but for those at the front of the fleet, the latter is faster because it produces less drag that V style boards. It is clear that the current development direction of A's doesn't have a lot to do with what was developed by ETNZ, but who knows where it will go from here with many people trying different approaches

Suggests there's a direct trade off between lift and drag, which is logical. AC72 foils got smaller and faster as teams' ability to foil developed.

 

Also worth remembering is that the AC72's were barred from foiling on two boards, except for a short period during gybes. Probably faster "on a tripod" in any case, at those speeds.

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...But physics suggests that the TNZ solution should be faster - because, if you've got a lifting foil beneath your feet - it's got to reduce your righting moment.

 

All else being equal - bear with me here - having half a TNZ foil in the water beneath two hulls means you are lifting the boat from the centerline....

You're partly correct. I've been looking into what happens with two boards in the water. Vertical lift on the windward board does reduce the righting moment. However, the effect of leeway tends to shift the vertical load more to the leeward foil. This is more pronounced as the boat flies higher. Heeling to leeward also shifts load to the leeward foil, but tends to make the boat less stable in heave. When flying at a medium height (say, 300 - 500 mm) the righting moment isn't altogether different from a hull with straight boards, since the straight boards also reduce righting moment. The details change with the foil configuration, but the trends seem to be similar over a wide range of foil configurations (C, J, L).

 

One interesting thing with two boards is anhedral is stabilizing - at least within the restrictions of the A Class rule.

 

The righting moment picture could be changed drastically with some simple board controls. Port tack, neutral, starboard tack, switched as the crew moves across.

This is interesting because it sort of supports what has been found in practice.In fact, until it gets pretty windy, it seems to be faster to have both boards down on an A while it doesn't seem to be slower in any conditions. Of course, this is early days. I suspect this is due to a number of factors, not least the limitations of how far inboard any part of the foiul can go which limits the amount of lift available. It seems that in lighter conditions, 2 boards down gets you foiling earlier than just one.

 

There is also an assumption that the stable flight achieved by boats like the Flying Phantom is faster than the relatively unstable flight achieved by the A's with their J and Z foils. I suspect that for the less skilled, this would be so but for those at the front of the fleet, the latter is faster because it produces less drag that V style boards. It is clear that the current development direction of A's doesn't have a lot to do with what was developed by ETNZ, but who knows where it will go from here with many people trying different approaches

 

That's not likely since the UptiP foils would only use a single main foil vs 2 in the water. And the easier altitude control would be bound to translate into speed around a course.

Historical proof: Groupama vs Hydros...........

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...But physics suggests that the TNZ solution should be faster - because, if you've got a lifting foil beneath your feet - it's got to reduce your righting moment.

 

All else being equal - bear with me here - having half a TNZ foil in the water beneath two hulls means you are lifting the boat from the centerline....

You're partly correct. I've been looking into what happens with two boards in the water. Vertical lift on the windward board does reduce the righting moment. However, the effect of leeway tends to shift the vertical load more to the leeward foil. This is more pronounced as the boat flies higher. Heeling to leeward also shifts load to the leeward foil, but tends to make the boat less stable in heave. When flying at a medium height (say, 300 - 500 mm) the righting moment isn't altogether different from a hull with straight boards, since the straight boards also reduce righting moment. The details change with the foil configuration, but the trends seem to be similar over a wide range of foil configurations (C, J, L).

 

One interesting thing with two boards is anhedral is stabilizing - at least within the restrictions of the A Class rule.

 

The righting moment picture could be changed drastically with some simple board controls. Port tack, neutral, starboard tack, switched as the crew moves across.

Damn - foiled by the leeway vector - again!

 

And, I guess it does make sense that if you pull a two foil boat sideways (with the wind) - the lee hull will tend to rise and the windward hull sink. Cool - thanks!

 

Therefore: Leeway induces some beneficial righting moment in a two foil boat.

 

Heave stability: Two anhedral works - at least for a A cat kept level. Perhaps the TNZ foil does have an advantage here - heave stability with roll. But let's forget about those TNZ foils - so yesterday!

 

What are you designing for the A cat? I hope we get to see it someday...

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...But physics suggests that the TNZ solution should be faster - because, if you've got a lifting foil beneath your feet - it's got to reduce your righting moment.

 

All else being equal - bear with me here - having half a TNZ foil in the water beneath two hulls means you are lifting the boat from the centerline....

You're partly correct. I've been looking into what happens with two boards in the water. Vertical lift on the windward board does reduce the righting moment. However, the effect of leeway tends to shift the vertical load more to the leeward foil. This is more pronounced as the boat flies higher. Heeling to leeward also shifts load to the leeward foil, but tends to make the boat less stable in heave. When flying at a medium height (say, 300 - 500 mm) the righting moment isn't altogether different from a hull with straight boards, since the straight boards also reduce righting moment. The details change with the foil configuration, but the trends seem to be similar over a wide range of foil configurations (C, J, L).

 

One interesting thing with two boards is anhedral is stabilizing - at least within the restrictions of the A Class rule.

 

The righting moment picture could be changed drastically with some simple board controls. Port tack, neutral, starboard tack, switched as the crew moves across.

Very interesting discussion.

Both concepts seem different but getting closer: the initial V from TNZ is now more like and L, and some J boards look like an L too.

 

The double J has the advantage of a better righting moment, about the same as a straight board, but the disatvantage of having 2 foils in the water.

 

Also, the double J behaves like 2 small L, thus presumably less drag than 1 big V.

 

More, 2 foils in the water may help fly a bit earlier and should be more stable and agile in a short race.

 

 

Still, it seems to me that one foil only in the water (V or L) is a more pure solution, taking the best of the catamaran hability to fly on one hull.

IMO, it's the solution of the future, but it remains to be validated by 2 identical cats equipped with the 2 different systems.

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...But physics suggests that the TNZ solution should be faster - because, if you've got a lifting foil beneath your feet - it's got to reduce your righting moment.

 

All else being equal - bear with me here - having half a TNZ foil in the water beneath two hulls means you are lifting the boat from the centerline....

You're partly correct. I've been looking into what happens with two boards in the water. Vertical lift on the windward board does reduce the righting moment. However, the effect of leeway tends to shift the vertical load more to the leeward foil. This is more pronounced as the boat flies higher. Heeling to leeward also shifts load to the leeward foil, but tends to make the boat less stable in heave. When flying at a medium height (say, 300 - 500 mm) the righting moment isn't altogether different from a hull with straight boards, since the straight boards also reduce righting moment. The details change with the foil configuration, but the trends seem to be similar over a wide range of foil configurations (C, J, L).

 

One interesting thing with two boards is anhedral is stabilizing - at least within the restrictions of the A Class rule.

 

The righting moment picture could be changed drastically with some simple board controls. Port tack, neutral, starboard tack, switched as the crew moves across.

This is interesting because it sort of supports what has been found in practice.In fact, until it gets pretty windy, it seems to be faster to have both boards down on an A while it doesn't seem to be slower in any conditions. Of course, this is early days. I suspect this is due to a number of factors, not least the limitations of how far inboard any part of the foiul can go which limits the amount of lift available. It seems that in lighter conditions, 2 boards down gets you foiling earlier than just one.

 

There is also an assumption that the stable flight achieved by boats like the Flying Phantom is faster than the relatively unstable flight achieved by the A's with their J and Z foils. I suspect that for the less skilled, this would be so but for those at the front of the fleet, the latter is faster because it produces less drag that V style boards. It is clear that the current development direction of A's doesn't have a lot to do with what was developed by ETNZ, but who knows where it will go from here with many people trying different approaches

neat - I hadn't realized that the rule geometry might influence a two board solution over single board down. Or even more interesting, how two boards might be a faster solution than one.

 

It may also be true that a tight dihedral is draggy.

 

It's amazing how a little information can enlighten the ignorant. All of the sudden, these two foil boats are the coolest thing since sliced bread.

 

And now that the AC teams have got involved - A class may count as trickle down too!

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A single board in the water isn't prohibited by the A rule, but it's difficult to implement from a practical standpoint. The sailor is busy enough without having to deal with putting foils up and down on every tack and jibe. The same goes for actively raking the foils. So I've assumed both boards are down and set to the same angles.

 

I'm not working on a design. I'm just looking at different geometries to understand how they work within the limits of the class rule. Some things have a very different effect from what I expected.

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A single board in the water isn't prohibited by the A rule, but it's difficult to implement from a practical standpoint. The sailor is busy enough without having to deal with putting foils up and down on every tack and jibe. The same goes for actively raking the foils. So I've assumed both boards are down and set to the same angles.

 

I'm not working on a design. I'm just looking at different geometries to understand how they work within the limits of the class rule. Some things have a very different effect from what I expected.

Watch Outteridges video above if you haven't already-he's got rake adjust set up so can use it from the trapeze and use it to lift the windward foil. I think it was Groupama that had a neat semi-automatic method of raising and lowering the boards.

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...But physics suggests that the TNZ solution should be faster - because, if you've got a lifting foil beneath your feet - it's got to reduce your righting moment.

 

All else being equal - bear with me here - having half a TNZ foil in the water beneath two hulls means you are lifting the boat from the centerline....

You're partly correct. I've been looking into what happens with two boards in the water. Vertical lift on the windward board does reduce the righting moment. However, the effect of leeway tends to shift the vertical load more to the leeward foil. This is more pronounced as the boat flies higher. Heeling to leeward also shifts load to the leeward foil, but tends to make the boat less stable in heave. When flying at a medium height (say, 300 - 500 mm) the righting moment isn't altogether different from a hull with straight boards, since the straight boards also reduce righting moment. The details change with the foil configuration, but the trends seem to be similar over a wide range of foil configurations (C, J, L).

 

One interesting thing with two boards is anhedral is stabilizing - at least within the restrictions of the A Class rule.

 

The righting moment picture could be changed drastically with some simple board controls. Port tack, neutral, starboard tack, switched as the crew moves across.

Very interesting discussion.

Both concepts seem different but getting closer: the initial V from TNZ is now more like and L, and some J boards look like an L too.

 

The double J has the advantage of a better righting moment, about the same as a straight board, but the disatvantage of having 2 foils in the water.

 

Also, the double J behaves like 2 small L, thus presumably less drag than 1 big V.

 

More, 2 foils in the water may help fly a bit earlier and should be more stable and agile in a short race.

 

 

Still, it seems to me that one foil only in the water (V or L) is a more pure solution, taking the best of the catamaran hability to fly on one hull.

IMO, it's the solution of the future, but it remains to be validated by 2 identical cats equipped with the 2 different systems.

we did get a treat this weekend with the Nacra20 - C board vs TNZ foil on identical platforms racing in the ocean around an island - and we know how that turned out.

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The Nacra F20 foils and foil configuration is a derivative of the TNZ concept:

post-30-0-30838300-1404183516.jpg

post-30-0-55969400-1404183549_thumb.jpg

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Correct Doug, the Nacra, Marstrom and Phantom all had the L-V foils and were easily leading the group.

 

At the end, both solution need to have the generate the same lift to foil. If the 1 foil solution is optimized it should generate less drag than 2 foils.

 

Then the question is a question of better righting moment vs less drag. I would say that drag tromps the RM.

 

 

Let us see if some fit the A class foil solution to an 18 or 20 ft cat to compare. I doubt they could do as well.

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Nacra 20 FCS wins line Honours @ Round Texel

Today the Round Texel long distance race had seen the match between 3 foiling weapons

Nacra20Texel.jpg

The Nacra 20 FCS that wins Line Honours

M20TexelMischa2014-1024x608.jpg

The Flying M20 from Mischa Heemskerk that had ended 4th

FProundtextel-1024x682.jpg

And the Flying Phantom that was leading the race but hit a sand bank

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Great pictures, TC-thanks!

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Nacra 20 FCS wins line Honours @ Round Texel

Today the Round Texel long distance race had seen the match between 3 foiling weapons

Nacra20Texel.jpg

The Nacra 20 FCS that wins Line Honours

M20TexelMischa2014-1024x608.jpg

The Flying M20 from Mischa Heemskerk that had ended 4th

FProundtextel-1024x682.jpg

And the Flying Phantom that was leading the race but hit a sand bank

The A cat system now

 

AclassEuros2014JasonbyUpton.jpeg

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There are a lot more pics here: http://bootinbeeld.nl/index.php?page=galerij/sites/2014/rot14/rot14_zat.php

and here: http://sander.photoshelter.com/gallery/Round-Texel/G0000qajppyvN3xQ/

 

Not sure if the Phantom was leading though, not that it matters.

Personally got 32nd place overall, not too bad.

Great effort, Tony. Not too bad at all.

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A single board in the water isn't prohibited by the A rule, but it's difficult to implement from a practical standpoint. The sailor is busy enough without having to deal with putting foils up and down on every tack and jibe. The same goes for actively raking the foils. So I've assumed both boards are down and set to the same angles.

 

I'm not working on a design. I'm just looking at different geometries to understand how they work within the limits of the class rule. Some things have a very different effect from what I expected.

Watch Outteridges video above if you haven't already-he's got rake adjust set up so can use it from the trapeze and use it to lift the windward foil. I think it was Groupama that had a neat semi-automatic method of raising and lowering the boards.

According to Stevie Brewin, who just came third in the Euros, nobody was doing was lifting the windward foil or adjusting the AoA. It was found that when foiling downhill, it was faster to have both boards down. While I agree that upwind it simply isn't practical to "tack" the boards with the current set up, you also need both boards down or else you get too much leeway. Downhill, it is reasonably easy to lift and lower boards, as people have been doing for the last few years when trapezing downhill with C foils although often it is too hard to do it before the first gybe downhill. I am sure that people of the caliber of Glenn, Jason and Stevie would have lifted the windward board if it was faster downhill.

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I could be wrong - but if there is a trade off between stability and speed - perhaps the Nacra went for speed.

 

Of all the images of foiling cats so far: FP, GC, and Nacra - only Nacra seems to fly low, foil tip underwater.

 

Wonder how any of these designs will fare in the hands of non-professional sailors.

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You can see the lee foil tip in the first 20 seconds and in many other shots. They show it a lot just "creasing" the surface*. The reports on the FP by people who aren't professional sailors is that it's easy to sail-I'd imagine the Nacra would be too....

* according to Tom Speer ,using the lee foil tip as a form of altitude control is draggy-including flying with the tip above water.

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You can see the lee foil tip in the first 20 seconds and in many other shots. They show it a lot just "creasing" the surface*. The reports on the FP by people who aren't professional sailors is that it's easy to sail-I'd imagine the Nacra would be too....

* according to Tom Speer ,using the lee foil tip as a form of altitude control is draggy-including flying with the tip above water.

Tom Speer designs AC boats - where 1/2 knot is a pretty big deal - and the crew seldom makes mistakes.

 

If your flying boat touches down just once it's slow - so perhaps ventilating the foil tip is worth the drag. On the other hand - it does seem important to fly low. Lifting the boat too high is extra work not moving the platform forward.

 

And, one might imagine, a foil operating at depth is more efficient: higher water pressure, and less surface affect.

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Lifting the boat too high is extra work not moving the platform forward.

Lifting the boat too high mainly decreases the heeling moment, thus the power of the boat. This is particulary important upwind. All teams were foiling pretty high at beginning of AC34, not at the end. OR did a great work upwind during last races, hull just above water

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I still find it amazing that a lot of the trial work for serious foiling cats was done in a 72ft cat off Taka beach

 

(yes I know about moths .... but they are toys not tools)

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^

 

Indeed. That would be today (Thursday, July 10). Now, the 3-day Forum agenda was

 

http://www.foilingweek.com/the-foiling-week/activities/tfw-forum-agenda/

 

and what cannot be missed is Martin Fischer, Michele Caponnetto and Giorgio Provinciali on day 1 and absolutely, Tom Speer on day 2.

I intend to go through that carefully as soon as I get back to a proper laptop [was meaning to attend, but got tied up with more pleasant stuff ..]

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A comment for this thread

 

I see the most to be realized (trickle down) to come from coping with the greatest concerns

 

the Foiling Cup in DAGO shall make the Greatest headway to the most common issues faced by regular Sailors

 

YES in a Space-Age manor but none the less

 

I'd like to see boats going 40mph in 10k of wind

 

jus sayin (Not that's all DAGO can put out just that it Would be nice)

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Wow, a truly propessional series, the GC32. The event in Kiel was canceled yesterday, because of "technical difficulties" that result in not enough boats for the event.

 

http://www.kiel-sailing-city.de/veranstaltungen/segeln/land-rover-sailing-cup-kiel.html

 

GTrans: https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kiel-sailing-city.de%2Fveranstaltungen%2Fsegeln%2Fland-rover-sailing-cup-kiel.html&edit-text=

 

Grrrrr, my hotel room is nonrefundable. :angry:

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Very weird RM, hope you enjoy yourself anyway - maybe get the scoop on the 'technical issue' and sell the story to Clean!?

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Wow, a truly propessional series, the GC32. The event in Kiel was canceled yesterday, because of "technical difficulties" that result in not enough boats for the event.

 

http://www.kiel-sailing-city.de/veranstaltungen/segeln/land-rover-sailing-cup-kiel.html

 

GTrans: https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kiel-sailing-city.de%2Fveranstaltungen%2Fsegeln%2Fland-rover-sailing-cup-kiel.html&edit-text=

 

Grrrrr, my hotel room is nonrefundable. :angry:

Here's hoping you go anyway and still enjoy Kiel. :)

 

Wasn't Belcher supposed to be there, along with some others? It must dash their GC32 plans too.

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If the sailors are there and some of the boats are there - maybe it won't be a complete wash for the GC32s, just nothing official?

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If the sailors are there and some of the boats are there - maybe it won't be a complete wash for the GC32s, just nothing official?

 

No idea. Those idiots (GC32 series and the Kiel event organizer) seem to not bother whether someone is interested or not. So better be not to avoid disappointment. All that's available is the presser above.

 

Oh, there's much to see in Kiel and around, so I will enjoy the time there anyway and maybe look for foiling on the Förde, beach sailing on the coast or any other sailing somewhere there.

 

Thanks SR and nav for the sympathy.

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^

 

Indeed. That would be today (Thursday, July 10). Now, the 3-day Forum agenda was

 

http://www.foilingweek.com/the-foiling-week/activities/tfw-forum-agenda/

 

and what cannot be missed is Martin Fischer, Michele Caponnetto and Giorgio Provinciali on day 1 and absolutely, Tom Speer on day 2.

I intend to go through that carefully as soon as I get back to a proper laptop [was meaning to attend, but got tied up with more pleasant stuff ..]

 

Was disappointed in the video quality, at least from a tablet - I find it very hard to understand Tom's conference (TFW Day 2).

 

Luckily, the slides are already up on his web page, which remains a true gold mine on the subject

 

http://www.tspeer.com/Aclass/A-ClassCatamaranFoils.pdf

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^ Day 5: Q. Was the younger guy who explained that they had designed and built the boat knowing the AC would lead to new developments that they'd be able to 'borrow' and build in later talking about the GC32? I either missed the introduction or or it was cursory.

 

Plenty to chew on in that pdf.

How much does the A-Rule limit foil development that would be universally applicable, if at all?

Which class allows the most open foil use and development at the moment?

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^

How much does the A-Rule limit foil development that would be universally applicable, if at all?

Which class allows the most open foil use and development at the moment?

The specific limits - stipulated in the past with the express purpose of preventing full foiling .. - are in Rule 8: the tip of the daggerfoil cannot extend inside ~ 75 cm from the platform centerline, and the foil must be inserted from above - both clauses limiting the horizontal (lifting) projection.

Additionally, there's the practical consideration that with a crew of one, it doesn't pay to raise the windward foil at every tack.

 

My personal take is that we are seeing a purely darwinian evolution, where class rules are effectively providing the stimulus for trying out original arrangements. Thus, the AC72 rule which called for raising the windward foil, led to uptips with more driving power over previous foilers. In the light of the other refinements / better control understanding developed for AC34, the A-cat rule may now lead to even better results - all the more so if indeed now the AC35 rule allows keeping both foils in the water.

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^

A class has two significant limitations. Ironically, both were intended to inhibit foiling by the class:

1. Boards must insert from top - like any other beach cat. My guess is that this rule was intended to eliminate wing foils - like moths and kite boards.

2. Effective minimum distance between foil tips specified. I suppose the idea here was to inhibit long foils reaching under the boat - like Hydroptere.

The truly great thing is that the rules failed! Just as happened with the AC72 rule - the design envelope forced a new creative solution to sail faster than the competition and win the race.

I think both A class limitations hinder use of the TNZ foil - can't easily lower from top and limited breadth might render the dihedral draggy. Have yet to see a TNZ foil on an A cat.

But as Tom Speer has investigated - and Glen Ashby has demonstrated - a twin foil solution can work within the rules. And because the single handed sailor has so much going on - there is a definite advantage in keeping both boards down. Tom's suggestion here is to enable three rake settings per board: port, starboard, and neutral.

At first I couldn't really understand why the A class didn't enable flight like the FP, GC, and Nacra have been showing us does work - adapt a TNZ foil - but they might end up with something even better - all because they tried to outlaw it in the first place. Neat stuff.

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If the sailors are there and some of the boats are there - maybe it won't be a complete wash for the GC32s, just nothing official?

 

No idea. Those idiots (GC32 series and the Kiel event organizer) seem to not bother whether someone is interested or not. So better be not to avoid disappointment. All that's available is the presser above.

 

Congrats for the Mundial Renmaus, the Germans were clearly playing much better, their victory over Argentina very well deserved !

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A class has two significant limitations. Ironically, both were intended to inhibit foiling by the class:

 

The AC 34 limitation rule gave us the one foil flying

The A cat rule the 2 foils flying.

Boats with not rule like GC32, Nacra 20 fcs, Phantom or C class cats will probably chose and tell us the best solution.

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If the sailors are there and some of the boats are there - maybe it won't be a complete wash for the GC32s, just nothing official?

No idea. Those idiots (GC32 series and the Kiel event organizer) seem to not bother whether someone is interested or not. So better be not to avoid disappointment. All that's available is the presser above.

Congrats for the Mundial Renmaus, the Germans were clearly playing much better, their victory over Argentina very well deserved !
That goal was spectacular, the cross didn't even hit the turf and the shot on goal angle was really tight.

 

Good game, too bad there had to be a loser but it was nice to see the respect paid to both teams in that ceremony after that game.

 

Congrats, Rennie.

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^

A class has two significant limitations. Ironically, both were intended to inhibit foiling by the class:

1. Boards must insert from top - like any other beach cat. My guess is that this rule was intended to eliminate wing foils - like moths and kite boards.

2. Effective minimum distance between foil tips specified. I suppose the idea here was to inhibit long foils reaching under the boat - like Hydroptere.

The truly great thing is that the rules failed! Just as happened with the AC72 rule - the design envelope forced a new creative solution to sail faster than the competition and win the race.

I think both A class limitations hinder use of the TNZ foil - can't easily lower from top and limited breadth might render the dihedral draggy. Have yet to see a TNZ foil on an A cat.

But as Tom Speer has investigated - and Glen Ashby has demonstrated - a twin foil solution can work within the rules. And because the single handed sailor has so much going on - there is a definite advantage in keeping both boards down. Tom's suggestion here is to enable three rake settings per board: port, starboard, and neutral.

At first I couldn't really understand why the A class didn't enable flight like the FP, GC, and Nacra have been showing us does work - adapt a TNZ foil - but they might end up with something even better - all because they tried to outlaw it in the first place. Neat stuff.

Luc Debois is of the view that the current A Class rules are forcing us into certain areas we wouldn't have otherwise tried and that these might turn out to be faster than if we simply copied the TNZ style foil.

 

One big factor in the A that needs to be considered is just how much influence the sailor can have by moving bodyweight and, to a lesser extent, on how you sheet the sail. In other words, the A can manage with less stable flight than, say, the GC32 and as drag goes up with stability, it means that the A's can potentially end up with a lower drag solution.

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everybody’s doing it, part 2

Kevin Hall also jumps into the world of foiling. It is a deep pool. Brought to you byMauri Pro Sailing.


Having a vision is one thing. Making it happen is quite another. The Edinburgh Festival in Scotland and Burning Man come to mind as gatherings which must have started as a vision. Kudos to Luca Rizzotti, Andrea Ratti, Domenico Boffi, and their many teammates for creating a world first: The Foiling Week.



http://sailinganarchy.com/2014/07/13/everybodys-doing-it-part-2/


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Not sure the date but it's good
--

Engineers, designers, and equipment specialists are essential components of a winning Americas Cup team. ORACLE TEAM USA Chief Engineer Dirk Kramers and Wing Designer Scott Ferguson will discuss their fascinating careers and their experiences on the 2013 Americas Cup winning team. They will also review recent innovations in America s Cup design and discuss how those changes have affected their work and the competition. A thirty-seven year veteran of the Americas Cup community and proponent of multihulls, Kramers has been part of five winning teams. Ferguson has participated in two winning Americas Cup teams. He is a Naval Architect and a specialist in the design of carbon fiber grand prix racing spars.

http://vimeo.com/m/100814145

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^ Thanks for positing SR. An interesting point, for me anyway, is that according to OTUSA's analysis, they were at least as fast as ETNZ upwind from race 8 onwards and that changes made between races 7 and 8 resulted in 20 boat length improvement on the upwind leg (see 1:03:30).

 

They also re-iterate that, before the AC, they thought OTUSA would be fine against ETNZ upwind and that they learned to "roll tack" during the AC by watching video of ETNZ. As ETNZ was roll tacking at least as early as the LVC final (and Luna Rossa was roll tacking in the LVC semi final), I'm not sure how they missed that. I guess it is easy to be an expert with the benefit of hindsight!

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Thanks for that, Stingray!

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Welcome, enjoyed it too.

 

The shot showing and describing the OR AC45 wing with LET was good and new to me. Nice slide too of the AC72 target numbers. Also thought DK's remarks in remembering AC33 were decent.

 

I can't forward and rewind that vid, is it just me? Watched the first half, tried to back it up, got an error, means having to let it run all over again to see the rest?

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Thanks for posting it. I was able to go backwards and forwards no problem. If they had to comment on the other teams at all it would have been nice to get a bit more reasoned analysis, but it was insightful from OTUSA's side although what they didn't talk about - the semi-automation of the foil adjustment was rather telling.

Are you still claiming they didn't change anything during the Match SR?

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^ Looking more stable than the recent A-class videos - but then again those were pretty benign conditions.

How much better is the VMG upwind over a non-foiler at the moment? Tacks are probably pretty ugly?

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^ Looking more stable than the recent A-class videos - but then again those were pretty benign conditions.

How much better is the VMG upwind over a non-foiler at the moment? Tacks are probably pretty ugly?

Didn't you have this discussion with AC72's? Same result here, I'd expect.

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^ Looking more stable than the recent A-class videos - but then again those were pretty benign conditions.

How much better is the VMG upwind over a non-foiler at the moment? Tacks are probably pretty ugly?

Didn't you have this discussion with AC72's? Same result here, I'd expect.

Well sorta kinda.....

 

The 'upwind' bit in the question is new, especially for a cat dragging four boards, the 'at the moment' part is key too, even if the inevitable result in due time is not in dispute.

 

So it ok to ask now huh, just to see how far along the curve we are? Maybe there's even someone lurking who has more than a WAG!

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^ Looking more stable than the recent A-class videos - but then again those were pretty benign conditions.

How much better is the VMG upwind over a non-foiler at the moment? Tacks are probably pretty ugly?

Didn't you have this discussion with AC72's? Same result here, I'd expect.

Well sorta kinda.....

 

The 'upwind' bit in the question is new, especially for a cat dragging four boards, the 'at the moment' part is key too, even if the inevitable result in due time is not in dispute.

 

So it ok to ask now huh, just to see how far along the curve we are? Maybe there's even someone lurking who has more than a WAG!

My take. Flying is ALWAYS faster than floating. You may go further, but you get there a hell of a lot faster.

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^ Looking more stable than the recent A-class videos - but then again those were pretty benign conditions.

How much better is the VMG upwind over a non-foiler at the moment? Tacks are probably pretty ugly?

The boat is foiling well but despite the words, i don't think it is going upwind. You only have to look at how far the traveller is eased and how much twist there is. In those conditions, with the traveller there and with that amount of twist, he has to be at least 20 degrees lower than a true upwind course.

 

My take. Flying is ALWAYS faster than floating. You may go further, but you get there a hell of a lot faster.

Most evidence suggests this is not correct, particularly in cats. If you said that flying can be faster, given the right set up and conditions, I would agree but there have been too many cases of foiling cats being slower than their non foiling counterparts for anybody to claim that foiling is always faster.

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^ Looking more stable than the recent A-class videos - but then again those were pretty benign conditions.

How much better is the VMG upwind over a non-foiler at the moment? Tacks are probably pretty ugly?

The boat is foiling well but despite the words, i don't think it is going upwind. You only have to look at how far the traveller is eased and how much twist there is. In those conditions, with the traveller there and with that amount of twist, he has to be at least 20 degrees lower than a true upwind course.

 

>My take. Flying is ALWAYS faster than floating. You may go further, but you get there a hell of a lot faster.

Most evidence suggests this is not correct, particularly in cats. If you said that flying can be faster, given the right set up and conditions, I would agree but there have been too many cases of foiling cats being slower than their non foiling counterparts for anybody to claim that foiling is always faster.

 

Were you one who said Big Red would be faster around the track, because she would have better VMG? I can't remember.

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^ Looking more stable than the recent A-class videos - but then again those were pretty benign conditions.

How much better is the VMG upwind over a non-foiler at the moment? Tacks are probably pretty ugly?

The boat is foiling well but despite the words, i don't think it is going upwind. You only have to look at how far the traveller is eased and how much twist there is. In those conditions, with the traveller there and with that amount of twist, he has to be at least 20 degrees lower than a true upwind course.

 

>My take. Flying is ALWAYS faster than floating. You may go further, but you get there a hell of a lot f

aster.

Most evidence suggests this is not correct, particularly in cats. If you said that flying can be faster, given the right set up and conditions, I would agree but there have been too many cases of foiling cats being slower than their non foiling counterparts for anybody to claim that foiling is always faster.

Were you one who said Big Red would be faster around the track, because she would have better VMG? I can't remember.

 

No, although some tried to twist my words as to imply that. All i ever said was to make claims when we had no data and the boats hadn't lined up against each other was premature.

Which is faster? Do yourself a favor, take a minute, and find out!

Read what i said. The comment was that foiling is always faster than not foiling. I said that is incorrect. There are enough examples of foiling cats being slower than their non foiling counterparts to justify that comment. Even in the A's, before the last worlds and the development work that the TNZ guys did, there were top sailors in the class saying that they were faster not foiling. in fact, I sat with Glenn Ashby while Stevie Brewin said exactly that.

 

Now, if the comment had said that a well developed foiling boat is likely to be faster than a non foiling equivalent in most conditions, then I agree.

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Yep - not foiling is faster right up until somebody figures out how to do it. And I guess the game is on to figure it out - whether it's an AC62 or an A cat.

 

It seems like such an advantage to have a development class. The FP, GC, and Nacra all appear to have fine systems in place - but they don't have the advantage of builder / sailors all over the globe trying to make the boats faster yet.

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Yep - not foiling is faster right up until somebody figures out how to do it. And I guess the game is on to figure it out - whether it's an AC62 or an A cat.

 

That's not what I said. I will be very precise with my wording. After the 2013 A Class European championships, Stevie Brewin, who won the event sailing a non foiling boat, stated clearly that on all but one downwind where others were foiling, he was quicker by not foiling. There was 1 downwind where a foiling boat was, in his words, about half a boat length faster on the whole leg, but that could have been simply not having sailed as well. Fact - at that regatta, foiling A's were slower than non foiling A's, hence proving what i am saying, which is that it si wrong to say that foiling is ALWAYS quicker.

 

Another example is the case of the C Class, "Off ye rocker" (sp) which was slower when foiling than a non foiling C Class.

 

Note, I am not saying that foiling in general cannot be faster, but simply that to say that it is always faster is wrong.

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Yep - not foiling is faster right up until somebody figures out how to do it. And I guess the game is on to figure it out - whether it's an AC62 or an A cat.

 

That's not what I said. I will be very precise with my wording. After the 2013 A Class European championships, Stevie Brewin, who won the event sailing a non foiling boat, stated clearly that on all but one downwind where others were foiling, he was quicker by not foiling. There was 1 downwind where a foiling boat was, in his words, about half a boat length faster on the whole leg, but that could have been simply not having sailed as well. Fact - at that regatta, foiling A's were slower than non foiling A's, hence proving what i am saying, which is that it si wrong to say that foiling is ALWAYS quicker.

 

Another example is the case of the C Class, "Off ye rocker" (sp) which was slower when foiling than a non foiling C Class.

 

Note, I am not saying that foiling in general cannot be faster, but simply that to say that it is always faster is wrong.

And what happened at THIS year's A Class Championship? Glen Ashby cleaned up without even sailing the last race. You need to keep up.

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Yep - not foiling is faster right up until somebody figures out how to do it. And I guess the game is on to figure it out - whether it's an AC62 or an A cat.

 

That's not what I said. I will be very precise with my wording. After the 2013 A Class European championships, Stevie Brewin, who won the event sailing a non foiling boat, stated clearly that on all but one downwind where others were foiling, he was quicker by not foiling. There was 1 downwind where a foiling boat was, in his words, about half a boat length faster on the whole leg, but that could have been simply not having sailed as well. Fact - at that regatta, foiling A's were slower than non foiling A's, hence proving what i am saying, which is that it si wrong to say that foiling is ALWAYS quicker.

 

Another example is the case of the C Class, "Off ye rocker" (sp) which was slower when foiling than a non foiling C Class.

 

Note, I am not saying that foiling in general cannot be faster, but simply that to say that it is always faster is wrong.

And what happened at THIS year's A Class Championship? Glen Ashby cleaned up without even sailing the last race. You need to keep up.

Can you explain to me how that is relevant to the point I am making? Is it really that hard to understand? Somebody said that it is ALWAYS faster to be foiling and all I have pointed out is that is incorrect. What Glenn did a couple of weeks ago doesn't change that.

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Ahem, now pay attention boys - simple question...so no need to mention 72s, 62s, C-cats, what's been true in the past or what is expected in the future ok ;)

 

Can anyone say whether foiling As are currently completing upwind legs in less time than non-foiling As?

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Can anyone say whether foiling As are currently completing upwind legs in less time than non-foiling As?

No A is currently foiling upwind. So the question becomes whether the boats that are foiling downhill are faster upwind than the boats that cannot foil at all. The answer to this depends on who you talk to and the conditions! Some believe that non foiling boats are always faster upwind and in lighter stuff, this seems pretty clear. However, because the top guys are sailing the foilers at the front of the fleet, they are able to stay in touch upwind and this distorts the picture. Whichever view is correct, the differences are small enough that downhill becomes the dominant mode, so the foilers are faster around the course in most conditions.

 

I don't think there are enough boats further back in the fleet for us to be able to draw conclusions there. It has been suggested that in the hands of the average sailor, it will be hard for them to be quicker around the course with a foiler. I personally don't believe this, but we are yet to see the evidence.

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Can anyone say whether foiling As are currently completing upwind legs in less time than non-foiling As?

No A is currently foiling upwind. I don't think there are enough boats further back in the fleet for us to be able to draw conclusions there.

So was it when Artemis was supposed to be faster upwind than TNZ and OR because they were not foiling. The same old argument comes back on and on again...

The only obvious exception is upwind in non foiling conditions.

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Can anyone say whether foiling As are currently completing upwind legs in less time than non-foiling As?

No A is currently foiling upwind. I don't think there are enough boats further back in the fleet for us to be able to draw conclusions there.

So was it when Artemis was supposed to be faster upwind than TNZ and OR because they were not foiling. The same old argument comes back on and on again...

The only obvious exception is upwind in non foiling conditions.

WTF are you on about. First off, don't try to change what I mean in a post by combining 2 sentences from completely different paragraphs that aren't related. And to the main point, no A's currently sailing foil upwind. That is a fact. No conjecture. As to whether a boat that foils downwind is as fast or faster than a non foiler upwind, I can only repeat what Stevie Brewin said this morning (I was at his house measuring 3 sails). He says that in most conditions, he would be confident of being faster uphill in his non foiling Nikita. He suspects that in strong wind, when the foilers are getting some foil assist (but not foiling), there might be nothing in it. However, the speed difference isn't significant and won't help you beat the foilers that are so much quicker downhill.

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Can anyone say whether foiling As are currently completing upwind legs in less time than non-foiling As?

No A is currently foiling upwind.

....

....

 

That's an answer in itself, thanks

 

You are in disagreement then with the photos posted above - but we know they are often more hope than reality in the early days of foiling!

But even if as I think you suggested that boat is 'not pointing really hard' (to paraphrase), that may still be best 'upwind mode' for a 4x4oiling 'A' currently??

And that and the likelihood of very ugly tacks informed my question.

Have you heard anything definitive?

OTUSA ended up foiling 'low and fast' for best upwind VMG right? Higher or lower than the 'A' shown do you think - or is there not enough info to tell?

 

 

 

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^

 

Indeed. That would be today (Thursday, July 10). Now, the 3-day Forum agenda was

 

http://www.foilingweek.com/the-foiling-week/activities/tfw-forum-agenda/

 

and what cannot be missed is Martin Fischer, Michele Caponnetto and Giorgio Provinciali on day 1 and absolutely, Tom Speer on day 2.

I intend to go through that carefully as soon as I get back to a proper laptop [was meaning to attend, but got tied up with more pleasant stuff ..]

Was disappointed in the video quality, at least from a tablet - I find it very hard to understand Tom's conference (TFW Day 2).

 

Luckily, the slides are already up on his web page, which remains a true gold mine on the subject

 

http://www.tspeer.com/Aclass/A-ClassCatamaranFoils.pdf

 

Yes, the video quality is bad, they should have zoomed in on the screen. You almost have to view the PDF slides while simultaneously listening to Tom's explanations of them.

 

Here's a direct link to Tom's

. After his introduction he goes until the 40th minute.

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Can anyone say whether foiling As are currently completing upwind legs in less time than non-foiling As?

No A is currently foiling upwind.

....

....

 

That's an answer in itself, thanks

 

You are in disagreement then with the photos posted above - but we know they are often more hope than reality in the early days of foiling!

But even if as I think you suggested that boat is 'not pointing really hard' (to paraphrase), that may still be best 'upwind mode' for a 4x4oiling 'A' currently??

And that and the likelihood of very ugly tacks informed my question.

Have you heard anything definitive?

OTUSA ended up foiling 'low and fast' for best upwind VMG right? Higher or lower than the 'A' shown do you think - or is there not enough info to tell?

 

There are a number of factors that show that it isn't going upwind. This is not just my view, but that of a number of top A class sailors who i have been talking to over the last day or so. There is no doubt in my mind or any of the people I have spoken to that that the boat isn't going upwind.

 

As mentioned above, the traveller is out to the standard offwind position. If you try to sail upwind with the traveller out even a small amount, and even if you sheeted for going upwind, you simply cannot get any height. This is so far out that even sheeted on hard, you wouldn't get within 20 degrees of close hauled. Next, going upwind in those conditions, you would need a tight leach, for 2 reasons. First, if you don't, you end up with a very full sail and the draft a bit too far forward for upwind work - remember there is no vang on these boats. Second, without leach tension, you don't point.

 

So, the sail is a long way out, it has too much twist and is too full for upwind work. This applies whether the boat is foiling or not. However, the rig is set up exactly how you would set it for offwind.

 

As an aside, it seems that the boat is using Moth style wands. If it is, I believe that the technical committee consider that type of set up to be illegal in the class. And I hope they are right.

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Humm, nothing says that setting are the same when sailing upwind with a foiler. Last minutes changes of OR wing trimming is one example.

At the end of the video are the boats moored ? do we have current ? The cat seems to be at about 50 degrees of the wind. Difficult to judge from this video though.

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Humm, nothing says that setting are the same when sailing upwind with a foiler.True, but anybody with any experience of A's would know that while there might be some minor differences, the differences we see are huge and there isn';t a foiling class out there that uses the same settings upwind and downwind. Those are downwind settings.

 

At the end of the video are the boats moored ? Yes do we have current ? Yes The cat seems to be at about 50 degrees of the wind. Difficult to judge from this video though. So difficult I am not sure how you could guess that. However, if you knew where in Sydney harbour it was filmed, you could work out the difference in angles between port and starboard. The 2 courses are about 180 degrees opposite each other.

Now I know you like to keep spaculating, particularly on things you know nothing about, and regularly troll by taking a contrary view, but my view that the boat isn't going to windward isn't just mine, but that of at least 4 other A Class sailors, including a world champion, leading class sailmaker and those who have been foiling. Of course, you may, as usual, feel you know more than they do, and if that is the case, you should be sailing at the next worlds which are in Italy, because surely you will win. I am sure you would be made very welcome.

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Humm, nothing says that setting are the same when sailing upwind with a foiler.True, but anybody with any experience of A's would know that while there might be some minor differences, the differences we see are huge and there isn';t a foiling class out there that uses the same settings upwind and downwind. Those are downwind settings.

 

At the end of the video are the boats moored ? Yes do we have current ? Yes The cat seems to be at about 50 degrees of the wind. Difficult to judge from this video though. So difficult I am not sure how you could guess that. However, if you knew where in Sydney harbour it was filmed, you could work out the difference in angles between port and starboard. The 2 courses are about 180 degrees opposite each other.

Now I know you like to keep spaculating, particularly on things you know nothing about, and regularly troll by taking a contrary view, but my view that the boat isn't going to windward isn't just mine, but that of at least 4 other A Class sailors, including a world champion, leading class sailmaker and those who have been foiling. Of course, you may, as usual, feel you know more than they do, and if that is the case, you should be sailing at the next worlds which are in Italy, because surely you will win. I am sure you would be made very welcome.

The difference is that I don't affirm anything, I just question your assertion.

 

Pretty clear that the settings are not the regular ones we see upwind however we know that OR had to relieve the pressure on their wing upwind in order to foil, which could be accumplished differently on an A cat.

As usual your demonstration is based on "a champion told me that ", as you did with Artemis to explain us that non foilers were faster upwind.

Amusing, you have pretty much the same arguments and demonstration for the A cats than you had for Artemis.

You have been proven so often wrong so often that I prefer to believe David Lister until proven the contrary.

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If you two could channel that passion into something constructive it would be beautiful to see.

 

Koukel

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You do know that it isn't class legal, don't you?

 

1) first we need to have proof that they use a wand

2) A cats could also use TNZ foils and to be faster on 1 foil than 2 foils

3) the class can change, history show that votes have been often in favor of creative solution, that is why A class is what it is now

4) Isaf could decide to overule the class

 

At the end I think that A cats will foil upwind within the present rules

 

Whatever, the interesting part of this video is the way David Lister sails and how he depowers the main.

He is not at all on the back of the cat as if going downwind. My guess is that he is at 50-55% of the wind and will to optimize his angle in a second time.

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