floater

trickle down

Recommended Posts

Thanks for that, Stingray. First time I've heard of Wallying:

 

"The benefits of Wallying on foils in an AC62 will be substantial, but the penalties for getting it wrong will also be great. For example, if forced to sail a header for any period of time due to the proximity of a boundary or a competitor, the VMG obtained from sailing on foils will be dramatically worse than would be available from sailing in high mode."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for that, Stingray. First time I've heard of Wallying:

 

"The benefits of Wallying on foils in an AC62 will be substantial, but the penalties for getting it wrong will also be great. For example, if forced to sail a header for any period of time due to the proximity of a boundary or a competitor, the VMG obtained from sailing on foils will be dramatically worse than would be available from sailing in high mode."

Yes on paper because they are sailing lower on foils. In pratice they can go back into high mode during the header but my guess is that they won't, simply because it would be too slow.

Now let's say it's right, would that explain why we could see OR at the end of AC34 sailing upwind in high or low mode depending on the tack ? We could hear the call on the boat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, given the evidence of the two Turbo 45's, flying upwind might be more efficient than Virtac predicted.

 

In any case, they will certainly fly better than the AC72's.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Those guys are making the most of their connections that's for sure. The RB Travelling Junior YAC

Short wheel-base on the Phantoms, they look extremely sensitive/exacting.

Europe/Asia hardly a world championship. How do you get in? Daddies money?

Career path?? Ookaay....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My first reaction was, I wish I was 13 with my first boat.

13 ... Hmm, see what our friend Martín over at catsailingnews has got to say, and he's tried the thing

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Absolutely fantastic! Lucky bastards-no USA stops?! See the incredible two videos at Stingray's link above.

 

Stills from www.catsailingnews.com

post-30-0-94825100-1425498006_thumb.jpg

post-30-0-13240000-1425498024_thumb.jpg

post-30-0-18209700-1425498051_thumb.jpg

post-30-0-80697900-1425498070_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It doesn't as best I can tell. Reminds me of the "sonic tubes" on the new Rave.....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The essence of "trickle down" : one of the great videos from Red Bull now on Youtube-simply extraordinary:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^ Extraordinary that you missed it - when SR posted on this thread 2 days ago Douglas

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I didn't miss it-but there was no youtube video on that link. I even searched youtube for it-nothing until yesterday. The same day Stingray posted the link I posted the stills and suggested people check out the videos on his link.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The essence of "trickle down" : one of the great videos from Red Bull now on Youtube-simply extraordinary:

 

Spectacular. My wife asked me why I was laughing. I didn't want to use the word titillated... but that's how I felt. One of those boat's got air.

 

When is the hobie version going to come out for everybody?!

 

By the way, Nav is such a putz. Not sure why.

 

Koukel

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Would it be correct to assume that carbon foil technology is responsible for these flying machines?

 

i wonder if it might be possible to machine a foil out titanium - but we haven't seen that.

 

Difficult to imagine any other material capable of the profile and strength. Perhaps steel could work, but maybe not a great answer for a boat.

 

It think we might be witnessing something of a special window of opportunity, where design and materials have met, and have made these flying boats possible.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Would it be correct to assume that carbon foil technology is responsible for these flying machines?

 

i wonder if it might be possible to machine a foil out titanium - but we haven't seen that.

 

Difficult to imagine any other material capable of the profile and strength. Perhaps steel could work, but maybe not a great answer for a boat.

 

It think we might be witnessing something of a special window of opportunity, where design and materials have met, and have made these flying boats possible.

 

Super light build and trickle down from NZ and other America's Cup design, methinks.

 

Kind of conclusive evidence of your original point.

 

Koukel

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"The GC32 is a fast and inexpensive way to discover these flying boats."

 

...easy for her to say.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Those guys are making the most of their connections that's for sure. The RB Travelling Junior YAC

Short wheel-base on the Phantoms, they look extremely sensitive/exacting.

Europe/Asia hardly a world championship. How do you get in? Daddies money?

Career path?? Ookaay....

 

Thanks to Xlot's link above I noticed this tidbit...

 

RB Foiling Generation 2015 Series is Not looking for "World's Best Talents"

RBFG2015.jpg

Image: RB. -- I've been informed that the Youth RB Series Foiling Generation will be only for youths living in the countries where the events are going to be held.

I really don´t get this decision and it is quite far away from the --- “We are looking for the world’s best talents”, said Red Bull Foiling Generation sports director Hans Peter Steinacher, inviting the new generation of sailors to take a step forward.--

 

No NED, GER, US, NZ or Australian, not even of course Arg or BRA youths will be allowed to participate this season.

Not even Belgian Henry Demesmaeker can enter, so clearly we are not talking about the best young sailors.

 

To me this is a real fiasco from the organizers. What a better chance to do the same they did with the AC45s?

You ask for sailor's CVs. you make a first filter and then you let race only the best no matter from where they came from. Selecting the best sailors should be a must to race the FPs in every aspect as for instance here in Arg I can set up at least 4 experienced youth crews in the 21-24yrs old., 20 and below I can only think of one with experience and talent to handle a race in this series.

 

I also confirmed that rules and limitations are RB sole responsibility

In 2015 You can only "step forward" if you are up to 20yrs and have one of these nationalities :

17. – 19. April Wakayama / Japan

26. – 28. June Weymouth / United Kingdom

10. – 12. July Malcesine/ Italy

07. – 09. August Malmö / Sweden

04. – 06. September Aarhus / Denmark

25. – 27. September St. Petersburg / Russia

19. – 21. October TBA / France

 

Pay to host or don't compete? That's also trickle down!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Some people seem to believe that Red Bull should be doing this series out of the goodness of their hearts. FFS! Get real! This is about one thing and one thing only - selling Red Bull. Instead of attacking Red Bull for the format, we should be pleased that they are involved at all, and celebrate that with such the wide variety of sponsorship opportunities that they have they should choose our sport. If the format works for them, great, because the alternative is probably taking their money elsewhere.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Some people seem to believe that Red Bull should be doing this series out of the goodness of their hearts. FFS! Get real! This is about one thing and one thing only - selling Red Bull. Instead of attacking Red Bull for the format, we should be pleased that they are involved at all, and celebrate that with such the wide variety of sponsorship opportunities that they have they should choose our sport. If the format works for them, great, because the alternative is probably taking their money elsewhere.

 

Of course is pure marketing , commercial move to sell cans. So what? They can do what they please, and we can comment accordingly.

More when you have kids expectations at stake. Just tell it like it is since day 1. I received lots of pm asking they had local youths wanting to participate, as it was not clear who would be able to give themselves a chance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Some people seem to believe that Red Bull should be doing this series out of the goodness of their hearts. FFS! Get real! This is about one thing and one thing only - selling Red Bull. Instead of attacking Red Bull for the format, we should be pleased that they are involved at all, and celebrate that with such the wide variety of sponsorship opportunities that they have they should choose our sport. If the format works for them, great, because the alternative is probably taking their money elsewhere.

Well that's one way to look at it...

 

Two guys recruited by ACEA to run their YAC - did a good job to all appearances

Then they use their insider status to talk their way into the ACWS!?

Then they take the YAC concept and 'privatise' it.

Talk big, 'Best sailors in the fastest boats' style + the JS 'career path' spiel and they sell their concept to RB, but it's really just 4 boats and mostly their Euro mates' sons.

Will they be 'selling' or restricting the places in the YAC as well?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"A Red Bull advisor has warned that the team could pull out of Formula One unless changes are made to the current regulations."

So sad lost first show? Gearbox failure needs an equalisation? Change some rules quick?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Some people seem to believe that Red Bull should be doing this series out of the goodness of their hearts. FFS! Get real! This is about one thing and one thing only - selling Red Bull. Instead of attacking Red Bull for the format, we should be pleased that they are involved at all, and celebrate that with such the wide variety of sponsorship opportunities that they have they should choose our sport. If the format works for them, great, because the alternative is probably taking their money elsewhere.

Some conspiracy theorists do an exemplary job of seeking out the downside and negative aspect in everything, but I won't mention names..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Well that's one way to look at it...

 

...

Talk big, 'Best sailors in the fastest boats' style + the JS 'career path' spiel and they sell their concept to RB, but it's really just 4 boats and mostly their Euro mates' sons.

Will they be 'selling' or restricting the places in the YAC as well?

 

+1 Exactly my point on this specific event,

 

RB ACYouth was perfectly done, organized and clearly promoted.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well that's one way to look at it...

 

Two guys recruited by ACEA to run their YAC - did a good job to all appearances

Then they use their insider status to talk their way into the ACWS!?

Then they take the YAC concept and 'privatise' it.

 

 

You are not fully informed. Steinacher and Hagara have had a sponsorship relationship with Red Bull for a lot longer than the Cup ever did, and they actually helped to bring RB to the AC. After AC34, Red Bull asked them what they should do next.

 

You know who Red Bull didn't ask? Oracle or GGYC. Betcha Monster jumps into the Oracle camp...at least until they get burned too

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^ I suspected that and so attempted to write it that way.

 

What do you think of these two? What do you think of their 'new and original series'? Does the hype match the product? Does it matter?

Also it's one thing to ask legal adults (call them 'youth sailors' if you like) to gather in one place for a couple of weeks of training and racing, but it's another thing all together to ask teenagers to attend a series of races around Europe and Asia - if that's what's actually happening. Or is it a series of races, but only locals will race at each location?

Not fully informed...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^ I suspected that and so attempted to write it that way.

 

What do you think of these two? What do you think of their 'new and original series'? Does the hype match the product? Does it matter?

Also it's one thing to ask legal adults (call them 'youth sailors' if you like) to gather in one place for a couple of weeks of training and racing, but it's another thing all together to ask teenagers to attend a series of races around Europe and Asia - if that's what's actually happening. Or is it a series of races, but only locals will race at each location?

Not fully informed...

 

I think their press release is full of a heaping pile of bullshit, but I also know them a bit, and they are absolute crusaders for bringing kids to sailing. So I'm going to avoid beating up on them too much for doing the 'done' thing and puffing the shit out of your regatta despite it being hyperbolic as fuck...because unlike Larry and Russell, these guys will do a great deal of following through and they might actually accomplish something long term. But I've sent a note to them with a few observations, and we'll have something from them sooner or later. Roman is a longtime SA reader.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is the real trickle down from the AC the whole generation of kiwis looking for "firm" paycheck rather than handwritten ones from a boat owner?

 

Koukel

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is the real trickle down from the AC the whole generation of kiwis looking for "firm" paycheck rather than handwritten ones from a boat owner?

 

Koukel

 

 

AC: It's a job, not a lifestyle.

Nothing wrong with selling your skills to the highest bidder in a moral economy, surely?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Is the real trickle down from the AC the whole generation of kiwis looking for "firm" paycheck rather than handwritten ones from a boat owner?

 

Koukel

 

AC: It's a job, not a lifestyle.

Nothing wrong with selling your skills to the highest bidder in a moral economy, surely?

 

Not sure a few around here would agree, like Ta Kootie and his sock puppet, Kia Ora or some such nonsense which he continually denies.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Is the real trickle down from the AC the whole generation of kiwis looking for "firm" paycheck rather than handwritten ones from a boat owner? Koukel

AC: It's a job, not a lifestyle.

Nothing wrong with selling your skills to the highest bidder in a moral economy, surely?
Not sure a few around here would agree, like Ta Kootie and his sock puppet, Kia Ora or some such nonsense which he continually denies.

hastings and his deranged sock puppets haven't been around here for a year and a half, but that doesn't stop you from still trolling him....

Shows just how far you let him get into that pork pie inside your head....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

Is the real trickle down from the AC the whole generation of kiwis looking for "firm" paycheck rather than handwritten ones from a boat owner? Koukel

AC: It's a job, not a lifestyle.

Nothing wrong with selling your skills to the highest bidder in a moral economy, surely?

 

Not sure a few around here would agree, like Ta Kootie and his sock puppet, Kia Ora or some such nonsense which he continually denies.

 

hastings and his deranged sock puppets haven't been around here for a year and a half, but that doesn't stop you from still trolling him....

Shows just how far you let him get into that pork pie inside your head....

 

RO, you might want to deal with you're own problems.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

Is the real trickle down from the AC the whole generation of kiwis looking for "firm" paycheck rather than handwritten ones from a boat owner? Koukel

AC: It's a job, not a lifestyle.

Nothing wrong with selling your skills to the highest bidder in a moral economy, surely?Not sure a few around here would agree, like Ta Kootie and his sock puppet, Kia Ora or some such nonsense which he continually denies.
hastings and his deranged sock puppets haven't been around here for a year and a half, but that doesn't stop you from still trolling him....Shows just how far you let him get into that pork pie inside your head....
RO, you might want to deal with you're own problems.

Addressing your problems when you wake up in the mornings is the way to go, as opposed to still ranting about them a year and a half later....

Oh...the last people I need advice from would be you and flutter...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Is the real trickle down from the AC the whole generation of kiwis looking for "firm" paycheck rather than handwritten ones from a boat owner?

 

Koukel

AC: It's a job, not a lifestyle.

Nothing wrong with selling your skills to the highest bidder in a moral economy, surely?
Surely not - the invisible hand grinds winches.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Not sure a few around here would agree, like Ta Kootie and his sock puppet, Kia Ora or some such nonsense which he continually denies.

 

Ever tried psychoterapy against OCD ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

At SButt, about the G4

--

How adjustable are the foils?

 

The main foil can rake fore and aft over 10 degrees (-3 till +7), while the rudder can rake 4 degrees (-2 till +2). Since this is a cruiser-racer, we have made the daggerboard case for the first boat extra long with three pre-set positions so we can move the daggerboard to the optimum balance point during sailing.

http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2015/03/20/g4-a-quantum-leap-forward-and-up/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

Is the real trickle down from the AC the whole generation of kiwis looking for "firm" paycheck rather than handwritten ones from a boat owner? Koukel

AC: It's a job, not a lifestyle.

Nothing wrong with selling your skills to the highest bidder in a moral economy, surely?

 

 

Not sure a few around here would agree, like Ta Kootie and his sock puppet, Kia Ora or some such nonsense which he continually denies.

 

hastings and his deranged sock puppets haven't been around here for a year and a half, but that doesn't stop you from still trolling him....

Shows just how far you let him get into that pork pie inside your head....

 

RO, you might want to deal with you're own problems.

 

That's a big ask, apparently he hasn't been paying attention for 5 years.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Not sure a few around here would agree, like Ta Kootie and his sock puppet, Kia Ora or some such nonsense which he continually denies.

Ever tried psychoterapy against OCD ?

 

Whats psychoterapy, a new medical term originated by trolls ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Nothing wrong with selling your skills to the highest bidder in a moral economy, surely?

 

 

Nothing at all.

 

I wish I could make money sailing. What I think is going on though is that rather than sailing to pay for travelling the world, there are a select group who sail to pay for fancy digs when they are done travelling.

 

Koukel

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A video at http://www.foilingweek.com/2015/03/a-class-learning-to-foil-the-exploder-a-cat/

--

The level of satisfaction or achievement on flying an A-class on current foil conf has no par.

 

Good video to see how dynamic is to sail , and handle foiling while learning, have already better rides than today, but this one is good to see the work involved.

Best sequence at 1:50.

 

FP ? F20FCS? Those stable flyers out of the box are for rookies! Don´t waste time and try to learn foiling one of these in current state of development, Historic times and I feel lucky to be a part of it.

 

Cheers,

Martin Editor CSN & IACA Official Website.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The FP is a modified F18, the Nacra is regular cat designed for C foil.

More important, their main foils are pretty much aft, as last AC72s.

 

AC45Ts moved main foils forward which seems to be unstable but very fast, some reached speed close to the AC72.

We can expect a new generation of small foiling cats, very fast and designed for optimum foiling.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The FP is a modified F18, the Nacra is regular cat designed for C foil.

More important, their main foils are pretty much aft, as last AC72s.

 

AC45Ts moved main foils forward which seems to be unstable but very fast, some reached speed close to the AC72.

We can expect a new generation of small foiling cats, very fast and designed for optimum foiling.

The Internet is full of shit posted by people who have no freaking idea what they are talking about. Above is a perfect example.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

The FP is a modified F18, the Nacra is regular cat designed for C foil.

More important, their main foils are pretty much aft, as last AC72s.

 

AC45Ts moved main foils forward which seems to be unstable but very fast, some reached speed close to the AC72.

We can expect a new generation of small foiling cats, very fast and designed for optimum foiling.

The Internet is full of shit posted by people who have no freaking idea what they are talking about. Above is a perfect example.

 

Please develop if I am wrong here and where, I and all here will be pleased to have your point of view.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

The FP is a modified F18, the Nacra is regular cat designed for C foil.

More important, their main foils are pretty much aft, as last AC72s.

 

AC45Ts moved main foils forward which seems to be unstable but very fast, some reached speed close to the AC72.

We can expect a new generation of small foiling cats, very fast and designed for optimum foiling.

The Internet is full of shit posted by people who have no freaking idea what they are talking about. Above is a perfect example.

 

Please develop if I am wrong here and where, I and all here will be pleased to have your point of view.

 

Phantom, was designed from day 1 as a foiler, the board case is well forward on this boat (leading edge of foil is at the front beam)

The FP has the foils in pretty much the same position relative to the hull longitudinal as the foiler 45's

 

 

Nacra, moved the foil case forward when they went to new style foils, not as far as I would like, but they did go forward.

 

Moving main foil forward actually increases the heave stability for the same foil geometry (within a given range).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

The FP is a modified F18, the Nacra is regular cat designed for C foil.

More important, their main foils are pretty much aft, as last AC72s.

 

AC45Ts moved main foils forward which seems to be unstable but very fast, some reached speed close to the AC72.

We can expect a new generation of small foiling cats, very fast and designed for optimum foiling.

The Internet is full of shit posted by people who have no freaking idea what they are talking about. Above is a perfect example.

 

Please develop if I am wrong here and where, I and all here will be pleased to have your point of view.

 

Phantom, was designed from day 1 as a foiler, the board case is well forward on this boat (leading edge of foil is at the front beam)

The FP has the foils in pretty much the same position relative to the hull longitudinal as the foiler 45's

 

 

Nacra, moved the foil case forward when they went to new style foils, not as far as I would like, but they did go forward.

 

Moving main foil forward actually increases the heave stability for the same foil geometry (within a given range).

 

Thanks Macca.

Now look at the two photos of the first foiling AC45 and then of the AC45T, you will notice that the wing is pretty much at the same place but foils moved forward the mast foot. Smaller foiling cats are not that forward yet:

Alt_OTUSAac45Feb2515.jpg

artemis1.jpg

Now, regarding the heave stability, I am ready to believe you, you have the experience, but OR crew members agreed that B1 was faster but more difficult to sail with forward foils. They also seem to say the same thing about AC45T: very fast but uneasy to control despite better systems.
Don't you think smaller cats are going to follow, with foils foward and aero optimised hulls ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

TC, didn't the wing step move back a little on the OR and AR AC45T's?

 

If that's true then it may give the appearance that the foils have moved farther forward than how much they actually did.

 

There's a good photo at Cup Experience that might be fun to re-post, it compared a T to a Standard. Can't remember if the wing base was visible in that comparison.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Right, that is the photo I was thinking of. I have to go now but it would be fun to find it.

 

You are right, the wing may have moved backward.

Still, at first glance it seems that the foils moved from about 45% to about 55% or 60% of the length.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^ The fact that the mast base on the test beds is behind the front beam has been clear for sometime. What was unclear was whether this was due to the mast base moving back, the beam moving forward, or a bit of both.

I think it is clear though that the foil is further forward than on the AC45 and the early AC45F's.

 

TC. OTUSA had the first foiling 45's, not AR.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Presumably the pod on the T's is what enables them to reposition the wing as they like. But it's unlikely the F's will get that structure, and since it's also unlikely the foils will move fwd on the F's then, well.. The jury is out on how well they'll be able to foil.

 

Because the F's will have adjustable stabilizers on the rudders, they may be safer than the somewhat-scary originals but it's hard to imagine the F's being much faster.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Presumably the pod on the T's ...

 

I prefer the structural term "longeron" used by Gunboats. "Pod" should be the aero fairing underneath

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

SR how much clearer do you need it spelled out. What are you up to?

According to Cammas LR had 2 AC45F's (they have modified them since). According to Jack they are getting 2 more.

They sailed brilliantly as we have seen in multiple videos, as did Artemis's earlier iteration - why do you not accept that.

And who told you they'll have adjustable rudder stabilisers? The class rule has not been published AFAIK.

One design/KISS most probably - maybe a bit of adjustment on the rudder blade angle preset.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh, I thought the two boats LR has been sailing were early-cycle T's and that their F was going to be the ex-Energy boat. Am happy to be corrected.

 

Yes, perhaps the adjustable stabilizers was a leap, don't think anyone has said yet exactly how that'll work.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

SR how much clearer do you need it spelled out. What are you up to?

According to Cammas LR had 2 AC45F's (they have modified them since). According to Jack they are getting 2 more.

They sailed brilliantly as we have seen in multiple videos, as did Artemis's earlier iteration - why do you not accept that.

And who told you they'll have adjustable rudder stabilisers? The class rule has not been published AFAIK.

One design/KISS most probably - maybe a bit of adjustment on the rudder blade angle preset.

some rule must be out there as teams (as in ETNZ "getting to work" release showed) are cutting up the 45's to install the new Core (presumably) built board cases. Less than 2 months you don't want to move them aft a bit when OR releases the latest rules. Why has no team showed any of this publicly? NDA's on the one design gear or rule? Apathy?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm sure the teams are fully informed, it's only us that aren't yet. Apathy? More like 'nobody is paid to do the web site job so far.'

 

It'll come, once IM hires a staff.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^ The fact that the mast base on the test beds is behind the front beam has been clear for sometime. What was unclear was whether this was due to the mast base moving back, the beam moving forward, or a bit of both.

I think it is clear though that the foil is further forward than on the AC45 and the early AC45F's.

 

TC. OTUSA had the first foiling 45's, not AR.

I did not want to take it as an example as it was not foiling properly

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Alt_OTUSAac45Feb2515.jpg

artemis1.jpg

 

I could not find the comparison between the F and the T so I did some NOT scientific measurements from the photos (and we know how it is distorted)

Still, I found that:

- distance between the center of the rudder to the center of the main foil: F: 47%, T 53%, which means significally advanced foil.

- distance between the center of the rudder to the mast foot: F: 54%, T: 47%, which means wing clearly aft

 

This is a very rough approximation, if somebody finds the comparison or can do one with the design it would be appreciated (k2mav ?)

If Macca has it for the GC32, welcome too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

SR how much clearer do you need it spelled out. What are you up to?

According to Cammas LR had 2 AC45F's (they have modified them since). According to Jack they are getting 2 more.

They sailed brilliantly as we have seen in multiple videos, as did Artemis's earlier iteration - why do you not accept that.

And who told you they'll have adjustable rudder stabilisers? The class rule has not been published AFAIK.

One design/KISS most probably - maybe a bit of adjustment on the rudder blade angle preset.

some rule must be out there as teams (as in ETNZ "getting to work" release showed) are cutting up the 45's to install the new Core (presumably) built board cases. Less than 2 months you don't want to move them aft a bit when OR releases the latest rules. Why has no team showed any of this publicly? NDA's on the one design gear or rule? Apathy?

 

 

They'll look and perform like the LR foilers (before they became AC62 test boats)

Nothing much has been getting published, rules included, who know why but AC35 not as AC34.

Of course the teams have the spec and probably the parts (and new boats in most cases - according to Jack)

Been going over these questions for months now, Cammas is about the only one who let anything slip, then they and ETNZ announced their plans and timing for getting their Cagliari ACWS boats ready. Almost exactly 2 months now before they are due in Sardinia.

Maybe the new boats will ship together straight from NZ - but no builder for retrofits or new boats has actually been announced publicly AFAIK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

TC. OTUSA had the first foiling 45's, not AR.

I did not want to take it as an example as it was not foiling properly

 

 

They hadn't figured out that they needed to C&P from ETNZ at that point

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Quotes from several teams have said it is up to them to make the modifications.

 

In some alternate universe, Larry is making a mint by forcing everyone to pay ten times any reasonable price, by forcing the teams to all go through Core, because it's one more facet of the Grand Plan to just fuck TNZ over, all over again..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^....it is up to them to make the modifications.

 

That's right, but what does that mean?

ETNZ and TF clearly intend to install the new bits themselves.

But since you are apparently in the know, are you suggesting Teams will build the parts themselves.

Which other Teams will be modifying old boats?

Who is building the new boats?

Will they be supplied as completed AC45Fs or as AC45s with a DIY foiling kit?

When are they due to be delivered?

Which Teams are getting how many boats?

Hmmm?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

All I know is that there's a big conspiracy going on. I will be shocked if anyone besides OR even makes it to the line in Cagliari! ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^....it is up to them to make the modifications.

 

That's right, but what does that mean? Nothing conspiratorial.

ETNZ and TF clearly intend to install the new bits themselves.

But since you are apparently in the know, are you suggesting Teams will build the parts themselves. No. And who cares one way or the other?

Which other Teams will be modifying old boats? My guess, since we've seen no iddication that any new (bottom) hulls are being built. Out of 15 originals, there should be enough sets to go around.

Who is building the new boats? What 'new' boats?

Will they be supplied as completed AC45Fs or as AC45s with a DIY foiling kit? What 'new' boats?

When are they due to be delivered? New boats?

Which Teams are getting how many boats? New boats?

Hmmm? Hmm, actually is right.

 

What provokes this "everyone is just screwing NZ, and everyone is obviously always cheating," conspiratorial itch you constantly display on your sleeve? Is it an in-breeder's birth defect kinda thang?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

SR how much clearer do you need it spelled out. What are you up to?

According to Cammas LR had 2 AC45F's (they have modified them since). According to Jack they are getting 2 more.

They sailed brilliantly as we have seen in multiple videos, as did Artemis's earlier iteration - why do you not accept that.

And who told you they'll have adjustable rudder stabilisers? The class rule has not been published AFAIK.

One design/KISS most probably - maybe a bit of adjustment on the rudder blade angle preset.

Compared to what we see today, Artemis's early iteration sailed like shit - except it did work slightly better than OR's pair which really blew. All three could foil in a straight line downhill only - no turns. That's it.

 

In terms of trying to understand the new AC45F, has anybody reported LR foiling to weather on their early 45F's?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

The FP is a modified F18, the Nacra is regular cat designed for C foil.

More important, their main foils are pretty much aft, as last AC72s.

 

AC45Ts moved main foils forward which seems to be unstable but very fast, some reached speed close to the AC72.

We can expect a new generation of small foiling cats, very fast and designed for optimum foiling.

The Internet is full of shit posted by people who have no freaking idea what they are talking about. Above is a perfect example.
I'd just like to add that calling the AC45T's unstable but fast is only half right. They are surely the most stable foiling cat I've ever seen. And I've seen a few.

 

Yes, very fast. Unstable in marginal wind perhaps - but that's the lack of breeze you have seen in those few videos you base your assumptions on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But it's unlikely the F's will get that structure, and since it's also unlikely the foils will move fwd on the F's then, well.. The jury is out on how well they'll be able to foil.

 

They'll foil well if you don't move them forward. It's counter intuitive but the foils further back makes lift off a lot easier. It's mentioned by the TNZ engineer in the youtube video floating around. There's a hull interference effect if you put them forward. I'm guessing if you get past that it's faster, which is why the team are trying it. But if you just want to make a OD foiling boat, move em back or leave them as is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

 

The FP is a modified F18, the Nacra is regular cat designed for C foil.

More important, their main foils are pretty much aft, as last AC72s.

 

AC45Ts moved main foils forward which seems to be unstable but very fast, some reached speed close to the AC72.

We can expect a new generation of small foiling cats, very fast and designed for optimum foiling.

The Internet is full of shit posted by people who have no freaking idea what they are talking about. Above is a perfect example.

 

Please develop if I am wrong here and where, I and all here will be pleased to have your point of view.

 

Phantom, was designed from day 1 as a foiler, the board case is well forward on this boat (leading edge of foil is at the front beam)

The FP has the foils in pretty much the same position relative to the hull longitudinal as the foiler 45's

 

 

Nacra, moved the foil case forward when they went to new style foils, not as far as I would like, but they did go forward.

 

Moving main foil forward actually increases the heave stability for the same foil geometry (within a given range).

 

Thanks Macca.

Now look at the two photos of the first foiling AC45 and then of the AC45T, you will notice that the wing is pretty much at the same place but foils moved forward the mast foot. Smaller foiling cats are not that forward yet:

Alt_OTUSAac45Feb2515.jpg

artemis1.jpg

Now, regarding the heave stability, I am ready to believe you, you have the experience, but OR crew members agreed that B1 was faster but more difficult to sail with forward foils. They also seem to say the same thing about AC45T: very fast but uneasy to control despite better systems.
Don't you think smaller cats are going to follow, with foils foward and aero optimised hulls ?

 

It's funny how you hear one thing and I hear another. To start with, the reasons for B1 being far more difficult to sail wasn't to do with foil position. And while I cannot comment on OR's latest AC45T, I do know from 3 different teams that the view is that the wider apart you have the rudder and main foils, the better the heave stability. We are already seeing that come into play in the A Class.

 

So to answer your question, small cats are already looking at how they move foils forward and how to improve the aero qualities of the boats, although I don't think the gains are in the hulls themselves but in everything else.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In the multifoilers I know about, the key has always been to try to get the mainfoils to carry 80% of the load*. That places everything else where it should be.

* at just after takeoff!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I liked those speed on time line charts they showed during the AC, superimposed either boat vs boat, or boat vs the same boat X races ago, showing speeds before then during then after a tack. Both boats got progressively faster, starting at mid 20's the bottom-end was up to something like 9 knots by the end of the Match, despite the big head-on SF Bay blow. Yes, that takes good attention to aero too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And while I cannot comment on OR's latest AC45T, I do know from 3 different teams that the view is that the wider apart you have the rudder and main foils, the better the heave stability. We are already seeing that come into play in the A Class.

 

So to answer your question, small cats are already looking at how they move foils forward and how to improve the aero qualities of the boats, although I don't think the gains are in the hulls themselves but in everything else.

 

Thanks, I guess that foiling F18 and F20 are going to advance their foils too

They will have to increase the rigidity of the boat and will probably have smaller,more aero efficient hulls as they now reach 30 kts.

I also think they will have reefable sails as it is apparently faster when possible.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Alinghi joins Bullitt GC32 Racing Tour (from Scuttle Butt)

Published on March 24, 2015
|

 

Ernesto Bertarelli has done it with keels, he has done it on multihulls, and now he is ready to do it on foils as his Alinghi team enters the 2015 Bullitt GC32 Racing Tour.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

At SButt, about the G4

--

How adjustable are the foils?

 

The main foil can rake fore and aft over 10 degrees (-3 till +7), while the rudder can rake 4 degrees (-2 till +2). Since this is a cruiser-racer, we have made the daggerboard case for the first boat extra long with three pre-set positions so we can move the daggerboard to the optimum balance point during sailing.

http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2015/03/20/g4-a-quantum-leap-forward-and-up/

This boat may deserve top billing as the most impressive trickle down yet. I am certain many minds will be blown when this boat gets up and boogies.

 

This ain't no beachcat.

 

It is a product of DNA, Holland Composites, and Mischa Heemskerk. Other work includes a flying M32 for Round Texel, and DNA has one the best flying A cats as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree ,S-the G4 is going to be a great example of 34 trickle down! And it pushes the boundaries that most people still think are impossible. Impressive....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, this sure as hell is trickledown from 34 and the first production cruising foiler ever!11053353_10153211757018839_3882637284647

post-30-0-87452800-1428347174_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites