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Gouvernail

At What Point Do We Revolt??

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Please note:

This is not a thread aimed at any particular class association, USSailing or the ISAF.

It is simply a discussion thread.

 

Example:

The United States Copperhead Association has not really existed since sometime around 1975.

The designer is dead

No new Copperhead has been built since the 1970s.

The molds were bought from the last company to build Copperheads around 1980 by a company who never built any Copperheads and has since destroyed and disposed of the molds.

 

I certainly would have no problem with someone finding a bunch of old Copperheads and deciding start a new association for managing the one design Copperhead game.

In fact, I think somebody could pop a mold off an old Copperhead and start building and selling new ones.

Somebody could write up all new rules and define the boat any way chosen.

 

But

 

Let's say you don't like an existing association and you want up start a better one.

 

How many sailors does it take to blow off an existing association and start a new one?

 

Who gets to decide which association is the legitimate one??

 

Can both associations be legitimate??

 

Just wondering how we decide it is ok for any group or individual to be on charge

 

How do we decide another claimant of the position is unworthy??

 

If a class used to be well run but the chain of possession of the "authority" has allowed people who don't care to be in charge...

What definitions and tools do we have to start a new authority??

 

 

For years Boxing has had various authorities and multiple individuals holding world titles

 

ISAF says you cant play on their games if you play in somebody else's world championship.

 

 

Just tossing it out

 

Any thoughts??

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Note: The genesis of this thread is a recent note from a guy who is resurrecting a sailing association.

"You used to have one of these. I am getting the association going again . Do you have a boat or know anybody else who does?"

 

My thought was, "wonderful!!"

 

And I don't care if he was granted the authority by some special chain of command because the previous guys quit doing anything years ago.

 

The way I see it, he is just like the guys who were interested and started a US association forty seven years ago. He likes the toys and he wants to see racing happen .

So, he decided to do the work

 

But

 

How do we decide when an enthusiastic person can just say, "I am going to make it go."??

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How do we decide another claimant of the position is unworthy??

 

Decisions are made by boat buyers and regatta attendees.

 

People who show up are making the only decision that matters.

 

 

Anyone can get a couple of people together and write a set of rules, pay their fees and get recognized by the organizing agencies...

but it takes something special to actually sell boats & promote events. Whoever is successful in doing that wins, doesn't matter how they got there. If you don't like what they're doing, but still buy their boats & attend their events....you're endorsing them (whoever "they" are)

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Pissed off again about Landt and that Laser deal, eh Gouv?

.

...been revolting all along as far as I can tell :mellow:

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Ok. Let's try another angle.

 

A VERY large part of the operating expense of some classes is the newsletter, and the paid staff.

Classes like the old J-24, Hobie, and current Laser are pretty much management and publishing companies. ISAF and USSailing are pretty much spending all the money on offices and personnel .

 

But

 

Promoting the game is hardly a blip on the balance sheet.

 

I find myself feeling like I don't care his much money the various people manage to gather and pay themselves but I draw the line at them telling me how we oughta play our game.

 

In fact, for the last dozen years I have not given a penny to any sailing association except when that association has actually contributed to the organization of an event in which I desire to sail.

 

I used to collect class dues for the regatta mentioned in my signature but I see absolutely nothing the paid staff or its publishing company does to in any way enhance the event or our Wednesday night activities

 

In fact. It seems to me all the Laser Class does is make the game more expensive by requiring we buy parts and sails marked up way above their reasonable prices from a non supportive monopoly builder.

 

And the ONLY reason the monopoly stands today is the class rules

 

Really??

 

Do I really want to give money to an organization whose only real purposes are to support the publishing business and the employees who run it and tell us from whom we can buy our supplies??

 

It isn't about Landt, or any personality

 

It is simply

I know where the money comes from and where it goes and it has nothing to do with helping the game

 

So why are we all still doing it??

 

I compare the Sailing associations to TV evangelists.

Send me your money so you will feel like you have done something

 

Really???

 

What??

 

Still doubt what I am saying is true??

 

Look at the latest NA Laser Sailor. They published a breakdown of how the money is spent

 

Just as I said above ... Management of the ASSOCIATION!!!! Not the game.

 

They are NOT the same thing

 

We should pay people to run the game but keep the association expenses to a minimum

 

That is not the case at all

 

The major portion of the funds needs to go to finding out about events and telling people about those events.

 

Newsletters are for NORs and encouraging sailors to join the fun

 

Sure it bus nice of people with toys and services for our game buy advertising space but

 

The only rational reason to have an association is to get more folks out on the water

 

All the other crap is a drain on our sailing budget

 

Ask what they are doing with our dough and why

 

Every penny that goes to class management is bad management

 

Game management good

 

Class management bad

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Let's say you don't like an existing association and you want up start a better one.

 

How many sailors does it take to blow off an existing association and start a new one?

 

Who gets to decide which association is the legitimate one??

 

Can both associations be legitimate??

 

 

I think the answers, in my UK-centric experience would be:

 

- more than you think, if folks don't like the association and the people in it, they'd probably have changed classes by now

 

- ISAF for ISAF classes, however splinter classes have been formed out of other classes and gone on to independent success.

 

- no, but SFW.... if a bunch of guys want to get together and race Bytes against Radials and call it the 'Penguin Fleet' because he was highest on their voting sheet of favourite Batman villains; wtf can ISAF, US Sailing, the RYA, ILCA etc do about it?

 

 

As a couple of examples of owners taking over the asylum.... well if look at that the Vortex Class, they were completely abandoned by Laser/LPE, to the point where it's alleged LPE cut up the moulds to ensure the class died out. However the current owners have crowd sourced the funding to build new moulds, including positive changes to design. The original designer, I think it was Jo Richards, has waivered his designer's fee/royalty for the first x number or so new boats. And they've sourced a new builder - well respected multihull experts White Formula.

 

I've no love for the boat per say, but I have nothing but total admiration for the guys who have taken their class out of Laser's gutter and transformed it into a hopefully viable and sustainable, self-managed model for their future.

 

Pentax+March+2014+193.JPG

 

http://www.sailvortex.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=60:vortex-unveiled&catid=24&Itemid=200

 

http://www.sailvortex.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&id=24&Itemid=200

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A VERY large part of the operating expense of some classes is the newsletter, and the paid staff.

Classes like the old J-24, Hobie, and current Laser are pretty much management and publishing companies.

 

In the case of the Hobie Class Assn. of North America, you are dead-nuts wrong. We have no paid employees. We pour thousands of dollars annually into our youth development grant program, where we cover the travel cost to major events for youths competing in the event - which this year included trips to Australia to compete in the Hobie 16 Worlds. We pay travel expenses of Guest Experts (which have included Jeff Alter and Hobie Jr.) to attend events and put on a one-day race training seminars. Area championships and NA championships are eligible to apply for up to $1000 grant to help with their events.

 

Yes, the class magazine is the largest line item in the budget, but that's only because members still want the hard copy - efforts to take it on-line have been met with serious resistance. It also happens to be a great promotional piece that can be left behind at yacht clubs and given out at boat shows.

 

The International Hobie Class Assn. is a different story. Don't get me started on that.

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A VERY large part of the operating expense of some classes is the newsletter, and the paid staff.

Classes like the old J-24, Hobie, and current Laser are pretty much management and publishing companies.

 

In the case of the Hobie Class Assn. of North America, you are dead-nuts wrong. We have no paid employees. We pour thousands of dollars annually into our youth development grant program, where we cover the travel cost to major events for youths competing in the event - which this year included trips to Australia to compete in the Hobie 16 Worlds. We pay travel expenses of Guest Experts (which have included Jeff Alter and Hobie Jr.) to attend events and put on a one-day race training seminars. Area championships and NA championships are eligible to apply for up to $1000 grant to help with their events.

 

Yes, the class magazine is the largest line item in the budget, but that's only because members still want the hard copy - efforts to take it on-line have been met with serious resistance. It also happens to be a great promotional piece that can be left behind at yacht clubs and given out at boat shows.

 

The International Hobie Class Assn. is a different story. Don't get me started on that.

 

There is still a big place in the world for hard-copy newsletters. I've been involved in publishing & distributing newsletters for a couple of different clubs and classes now. Yes it's a PITA. But it is by far the best way to develop NEW interest.

 

Every waiting room in town ought to have a class or club newsletter. You'd be amazed how many people will pick it up just to see the sailboat pictures. Then you have a lot of new people traipsing in, of whom 99% will never be more than casually and distantly interested.

 

What a pain. Why bother.

 

OTOH it's a good way to bring in new crew, new crew turns into sailors, sailors turn into owners/members.

 

The website only brings in people who already know about it and are already interested.

 

FB- Doug

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A VERY large part of the operating expense of some classes is the newsletter, and the paid staff.

Classes like the old J-24, Hobie, and current Laser are pretty much management and publishing companies.

In the case of the Hobie Class Assn. of North America, you are dead-nuts wrong. We have no paid employees. We pour thousands of dollars annually into our youth development grant program, where we cover the travel cost to major events for youths competing in the event - which this year included trips to Australia to compete in the Hobie 16 Worlds. We pay travel expenses of Guest Experts (which have included Jeff Alter and Hobie Jr.) to attend events and put on a one-day race training seminars. Area championships and NA championships are eligible to apply for up to $1000 grant to help with their events.

 

Yes, the class magazine is the largest line item in the budget, but that's only because members still want the hard copy - efforts to take it on-line have been met with serious resistance. It also happens to be a great promotional piece that can be left behind at yacht clubs and given out at boat shows.

 

The International Hobie Class Assn. is a different story. Don't get me started on that.

If the class is successfull getting the newsletter online, would dues drop, or would the extra money be spent on more grants etc?

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If the class is successfull getting the newsletter online, would dues drop, or would the extra money be spent on more grants etc?

 

Members already have the option of a web membership ($25) vs. a hard copy subscription membership ($35). The ratio is about 1 (web) to 3 (full). Family members (at the same address as the primary member) can be added for $10 each.

 

Youth membership is only $15. There's an "honorific" membership of $100 that about 25 people sign up for. There's also a "recreational" membership ($20) that's essentially a magazine subscription - it doesn't count for class racing.

 

Membership dues haven't changed since 1992, when paid membership was introduced (Hobie Cat used to completely fund the class assn. and pulled the plug).

 

Class rules require 1 person on the boat be a member for class-sanctioned events; regional championships (North Americans) and worlds require everyone on the boat to be a class member.

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Do it Gouv.

 

Starts locally at your fleet/club.

If it takes off and spreads great.

Kill the supplier limitations

Control the max purchase ratios on controls (or not, 64:1 vang would be unlikely to make any difference).

Consider allowing location of deck gear to be more open (maybe double ended controls to rails)

 

Need to cover possibility of clone hulls. Not sure how to do that with no supplier (yet!?).

Maybe has to weigh in and x% of regatta competitors must agree the hull is OK.

 

You have talked about enhanced Laser foils on here before.

Foils may be the thing hard to make simple to control that has ability to blow the whole thing up.

 

To borrow from the Underwear Gnomes...

 

1. Start the association

2.????

3. Participation!

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...from what I've seen as a past Laser district sec,,the laser membership is rather apathetic.

...as sec,,it seemed I got landed with a set of expectations,,,yet nobody stepped forward to support.

 

...membership in smaller classes generally seem to have a much more pitch-in,,can-do attitude,,,probably because they saw how lasers went :mellow:

 

 

....'torch' th things ---they're -done-.............time to move on <_<

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Let's all recognize that the class to which this discussion is most relevant is the Laser class.

 

As temporary measure, you can do what my club has done: simply declare Laser sails and spars built by non-licensed builders to be legal.

 

This is working fine for club-level racing. For the long term and for higher level racing, a more detailed solution would have to be found which would include specs. But the simple expedient of declaring a boat legal, even if it carries gear built by a non-licensed builder, is unstoppable from a legal perspective.

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Revolt! .....never. Sheep don't revolt....That's why they call'em sheep. Development or open classes (like your tcc ers) are the way to go if you want people with gonads enough to revolt.

The class your looking to will whine till some one comes to save 'em or bury em while talking about the good old days.

Sorry Gov but ya gotta get over it.

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Check out what is happening at the Irish sailing association (ISA) It seems the sailors are taking over from the administrators. The admin numbers went up and the association was perceived to be too interested in high performance sailing (note 'perceived') Result: The sailors have taken the association back and all admin is under review. No idea how it will all end but at least some effort was made.

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I think the answer to your question is actually very simple. If you have enough active sailors interested in a new association, you probably have enough votes to get rid of the existing board and install one that will make the association into what you want. If you haven't got enough votes for that, you probably don't have enough support for a new association.

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Personally I've never come across a Class Association that has paid staff outside of some of the manufacturer owned classes where the CA has admin support from the builder. The thing you have in the US where, as far as I can see, there are a few people who are professional Class administrators and who work for several classes, seems quite weird to me.

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A VERY large part of the operating expense of some classes is the newsletter, and the paid staff.

Classes like the old J-24, Hobie, and current Laser are pretty much management and publishing companies.

In the case of the Hobie Class Assn. of North America, you are dead-nuts wrong. We have no paid employees. We pour thousands of dollars annually into our youth development grant program, where we cover the travel cost to major events for youths competing in the event - which this year included trips to Australia to compete in the Hobie 16 Worlds. We pay travel expenses of Guest Experts (which have included Jeff Alter and Hobie Jr.) to attend events and put on a one-day race training seminars. Area championships and NA championships are eligible to apply for up to $1000 grant to help with their events.

 

Yes, the class magazine is the largest line item in the budget, but that's only because members still want the hard copy - efforts to take it on-line have been met with serious resistance. It also happens to be a great promotional piece that can be left behind at yacht clubs and given out at boat shows.

 

The International Hobie Class Assn. is a different story. Don't get me started on that.

Shoot me!!! I deserve it!! I should have written Old in front of each class separately and mentioned that was then and not now

 

Sorry

Your feathers were rightfully ruffled and I deserve a kick in the butt for ruffling them

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There is still a big place in the world for hard-copy newsletters. I've been involved in publishing & distributing newsletters for a couple of different clubs and classes now. Yes it's a PITA. But it is by far the best way to develop NEW interest.

 

Every waiting room in town ought to have a class or club newsletter. You'd be amazed how many people will pick it up just to see the sailboat pictures. Then you have a lot of new people traipsing in, of whom 99% will never be more than casually and distantly interested.

 

What a pain. Why bother.

 

OTOH it's a good way to bring in new crew, new crew turns into sailors, sailors turn into owners/members.

 

The website only brings in people who already know about it and are already interested.

 

FB- Doug

I absolutely agree about extra newsletters in all sorts of places. When the Laser Class had only 2000 members I used what would otherwise have been my paycheck to have 5000 copies of the 64 page newsprint tabloid full of about 300 NOR and fleet listings for every fleet on the region printed quarterly. I

As I drove 80,000 miles per year around North America attending 25 regattas per year I dropped stacks of newsletters in boat stores, gyms, clubs, doctors' offices, and handed out thousands to be distributed by others

 

If I didn't think it was important I would not have spent my own money doing it

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Everywhere in my little world, there are lots of things, given the authority, I would cause to be done differently .

 

I believe each of you has that same feeling.

 

Let's not waste time questioning my motives for my set of changes.

 

Let's read about what you would do or have done differently if you were in charge

Let's read about what would cause you to blow off the status quo and start new associations

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Personally I've never come across a Class Association that has paid staff outside of some of the manufacturer owned classes where the CA has admin support from the builder. The thing you have in the US where, as far as I can see, there are a few people who are professional Class administrators and who work for several classes, seems quite weird to me.

 

Yep, and each year we vote for the candidates for all the roles and we're usually damn glad that somebody volunteers to stand.

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Personally I've never come across a Class Association that has paid staff outside of some of the manufacturer owned classes where the CA has admin support from the builder.

A class association I previously helped run had a paid administrator, not provided by a manufacturer. Albeit not full time so I don't know if "staff" would be the right word.

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Personally I've never come across a Class Association that has paid staff outside of some of the manufacturer owned classes where the CA has admin support from the builder.

A class association I previously helped run had a paid administrator, not provided by a manufacturer. Albeit not full time so I don't know if "staff" would be the right word.
Was that administrator a decision maker, or were they just employed to do all of the leg work for the controlling committee, and see things get completed in a timely manner?

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There's only one thing for it, Gouv. Tell Bruce Kirby you want to be head of the Torch Class Assoc, and you'll have a class to promote, and he'll have an energetic promoter.

 

I'm a disgruntled (former) member of the ILCA-NA. All I got from my membership was cheesy, poorly produced and even more poorly written magazine quarterly. No discount on most Laser regattas, no ballot, no information on the arcane class politics. And every argument in favor of joining the class assoc, is that "people want to sail in a strong class". Well, its the strength of the boat design and its sailors that make it a strong class. NOT the Class Assoc, which just collects rent, as far as I can see.

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Personally I've never come across a Class Association that has paid staff outside of some of the manufacturer owned classes where the CA has admin support from the builder.

A class association I previously helped run had a paid administrator, not provided by a manufacturer. Albeit not full time so I don't know if "staff" would be the right word.

 

 

Was that administrator a decision maker, or were they just employed to do all of the leg work for the controlling committee, and see things get completed in a timely manner?

 

 

Decision makers were the elected committee, all unpaid. "Elected" means they had their arms twisted to stand, of course.

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Torch isn't going to be the complete answer to Gouv's identified problems. Torch association may do a better job for the average sailor WRT promotion of class and events. I doubt Kirby would allow any new association to make any changes to the current equipment source rules that would make it cheaper. I bet Kirby and builders would want Torch Class association and rules to be very much like ILCA. I think the timing is right to launch the Revolt Class Association. There is no reason people couldn't keep their boat "pure" and sail events in ILCA and the new class. Local fleets are already looking the other way for the use of cheap sails spars and gears.

The new class would allow many local only sailors to have the option of traveling to new regional and national events.

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Torch isn't going to be the complete answer to Gouv's identified problems. Torch association may do a better job for the average sailor WRT promotion of class and events. I doubt Kirby would allow any new association to make any changes to the current equipment source rules that would make it cheaper. I bet Kirby and builders would want Torch Class association and rules to be very much like ILCA. I think the timing is right to launch the Revolt Class Association. There is no reason people couldn't keep their boat "pure" and sail events in ILCA and the new class. Local fleets are already looking the other way for the use of cheap sails spars and gears.

The new class would allow many local only sailors to have the option of traveling to new regional and national events.

 

Another perspective:

 

Builders of small boats at least hope they are going to make money building and selling boats, hardware, rigs, etc. I'm not going to invest in tooling to build the Revolt Class boats or gear unless I have some reasonable expectation of enough money after expenses to live on. For small boats -- and occasionally for not so small boats -- that usually means one-design and that means control of hull, rigs, decks, at least some key gear, and sometimes everything. All that is most directly and simply attained by exclusivity. Thanks to my negotiating skills and my lawyer's help, as the exclusive builder of the Revolt Class (whether I start and run and subsidize the Class Association or am simply chosen as the exclusive builder by the Class Association on mutually acceptable terms) my risk of my investment is made far more acceptable and my reasonable expectation of an income is not completely looney tunes. After all, my investment is somewhat protected -- at least from competition -- by those trademarks, design patents, class association rules, exclusivity, etc.

 

If the Revolt Class takes off as a strictly controlled one-design, as the Laser Class did (thanks to Gov!), I may manage a nice income for myself and a few employees so long as I manage my business well. My role in marketing the class may be a major factor in success of the class and give me some assurance that my investment is subject to risks over which I have at least a measure of control. (I can always hope to hire Gov to help with marketing.) Of course there's risk of failure of the Revolt Class, and I'm a bit vulnerable to the competence of the Class Association. OTOH, I have a strong voice -- or perhaps even control -- in the Class Association, and have a chance of fixing problems and avoiding failure.

 

Or like some of the builders in the A Class cats, I may be building just enough boats in a largely uncontrolled open class to have a hope of amortizing my investment in tooling and have very little realistic anticipation of any significant profit. (There are quite a few builders of A Class cats that aren't sending their kids to Harvard on the A Class profits. There are a couple of more substantial outfits building A Class cats, but their sales volume rise and fall with each regatta and they are pushed into expensive retooling for each significant evolution in the details of winning boats in the class.) The winning -- selling -- boat is a moving target and I have to push the price to have any chance of a profit. Mine is a one voice among many when it comes to permitting or banning some specific evolution of winning design.

 

The middle ground between strict one-design classes and open classes exists: let's call them "semi-one-design" boats. The investment risk is less predictable, since some classes prosper and some fail. New classes come and go. Old established classes (Star, Lightning, Thistle, Snipe, Jet 14, etc.) are mostly built on tooling that was fully amortized long ago and is cheap to maintain, keeping costs down. Even those old classes are in general decline, relying on a few, isolated local fleets to keep some semblance of a viable market going. I'm going to stick with the Revolt Class and my exclusive contract with them.

 

I'm going to see to it that the Class Association works hard to give sailors good competition and good regattas and good parties before and after competition. That's where much of my marketing budget will go. And if I can get Rolex, Mount Gay and/or Bacardi to get on board, so much the better. That subsidizes my marketing budget and theirs, while that adds to the prestige of the class.

 

And when the sailors start a revolt demanding that my exclusivity be terminated and take over the Class Association, I know I'd better call my lawyer again. I'm going to need him.

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Let's not waste time questioning my motives for my set of changes.,or remembering how egocentric and corrupt my show was

 

 

 

.....fixed...

 

...how can I forget how you directed your class sec to ban my rebuilt boat that I was sailing at a home-club event,,with no warning,,,no hearing,,,no recourse

 

..........'revolting' indeed <_<

 

 

26. Repairs & Maintenance Repairs and preventative maintenance to the sail, hull, deck, centreboard, rudder, mast, boom or any fittings and fixings may be carried out without violation of these Rules provided such repairs are made in such a way that the essential shape, characteristics or function of the original are not affected.

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Hijack

 

Sometimes Couchsurfer really pisses me off. This morning is one of those times.

 

He has been blowing this up and misrepresenting my position and actions for sixteen years now.

 

He brought a boat to a Laser regatta on the west Coast and various competitors complained he had a cheater boat. NA VP Lainie Pardey explained to me the boat had been questioned at other events and she was concerned the boat was modified.

I was the newly elected NA VP and Measurer and present at my first West Coast event so I got dragged in to "do something about this."

 

I visited the boat with Couchsurfer and Lainie and I explained, "I can't tell by just looking and poking whether this boat has been made better than a Laser. I don't have any reason to suspect cheating or accuse (Couchsurfer) of cheating but other sailors are complaining. (Not to me. I was the new guy in what was described to me as an ongoing mess)

On that afternoon I explained to Couchsurfer his boat was certainly unique in appearance. If recollection serves accurately, the nonskid area was a baby blue color and made from

paint as opposed to the original molded surface.

And... If I remember correctly, I believe I pointed out to Couchsurfer it appeared to me large areas of the deck had probably been cut open and rebuilt.

But

And this is very important to comprehending the truth and discrediting couchsurfer's 15 year vendetta of trash talk....

 

I did not suggest he do anything at that event but sail that boat and have a good time doing so!!!

 

 

What I did do is say something very close to the following:

 

 

You (Couchsurfer) obviously have done a lot of work on this boat. You sail near or at the front of the fleet.

You could easily have made major modifications to this boat

You may have rebuilt this boat to the exact specifications used at the factory.

You CHOSE to make the boat unique in appearance and you know its unique appearance has caused others to ask questions.

You have told me there are other old boats you have rescued and refurbished.

My SUGGESTION is you (Couchsurfer) bring some other boat than this unique one to future events.

It doesn't matter if this boat is 100% equal to a stock boat. What matters is it is deliberately made unique and others are demanding we "do something " about your unique boat.

 

 

 

I told him something like:

 

I live 2500 miles from here and will probably never see this boat again.

but... I am stuck in a position where my job includes ferreting out illegal Lasers and removing that equipment and those who would use it from our contests

 

So, please do not bring this boat to any more major events

 

If you don't bring it around anymore, life will be easier for both of us.

 

 

ABSOLUTELY no one has ever mentioned to me EVER seeing that boat ANYWHERE again.

As far as I concerned that discussion on that day ended any involvement on my part about any consideration of that boat

 

I did make it back to the West coast and Couchsurfer sailed a different boat.

 

 

Additional note:

Couchsurfer also sold some refinished foils. The ones I have seen appear to be painted with something like Awlgrip or Imron. There was no evidence on the blades I saw the shape had been modified.

I know I expressed my opinion about resurfacing blades and couchsurfer's blades absolutely were refinished as I would hope others would.

It appeared he filled gouges, prepared the surface, and applied a thin hard durable coating.

 

He was not changing performance. He was creating blades whose new surfaces needed much less maintenance.

 

In fact his price was so low, it was obvious to me he was just doing it because he liked helping people have nice toys

 

 

STFU Couchsurfer!!! I am sick and tired of your weenie assed attempts to disparage my reputation with lies and bullshit indicating I did something other than that which is described above.

 

And

My invitation still stands. Sailing against you is a hoot. Any time you can find your way to Austin I will make certain you have a boat for the races.

Unless you move here, in which case you will need to get your own long term toy.

 

 

End hijack

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Back on subject??

This thread didn't work. When I question class management everyone assumes I totally focused on laser class bullshit and the discussion goes there.

 

I want to cause discussions about game management generally. In think the game is generally mismanaged in many wayscay virtually all levels from fleets and clubs to international organizations.

 

At home I see too much emphasis on running the club as opposed to using the club to run the game.

 

The revolt to which I refer has to do with fixing that.

When I see the management focus on the game I am thrilled we have a tool for enhancing our game

 

When I see the management focus on how the club should be run I see every second of our officers ' time being wasted.

 

 

When I see an organization more concerned about running itself than about making the game happen I would like to wave my magic wand, disperse the organization , and start over with a new organization designed as a tool to make the game work better

 

 

At the registration desk for the regatta listed below I take $40 from each competitor.

That is NOT a pay me or I won't score you fee.

 

I need the money to feed everybody and buy gas for the committee boats.

In fact, I feed everybody for less than they could buy the same food in individual portions and I personally gather all the gas cans and fill them at a gas station where the price is low.

 

Nobody pays me or anyone verse to to manage the event. We do not even use entry fees to buy pizza while we sit around a table and organize

 

 

At the other end of the entry price philosophy are regattas where it costs $200 to enter and you don't even get a meal .

I wanted to discuss that sort of stuff

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.....why would I not continue to hold a resentment over such a situation as having my rebuilt boat banned that I was sailing at a home-club event,,with no warning,,,no hearing,,,no recourse?

.....of course I recollect things differently-whatever-.,,,but as you say you attended an event that I was at,,were in a position to check out my boat,,,and didn't,,even though I would have been happy to let you,,as much as anyone else who wanted to have a good look.,class executive or not.

.....I was proud of my work on that boat. I rebuilt a laser such that it met,but not exceeded the characteristics described in rule26....I had inspection ports on the boat--pretty easy to look around...the only 'large areas of deck' that had been opened was the mast step--repaired with a manufacturer supplied kit,,,the tread had a light scuffing,and a mist of paint.........whatever--you could have seen all this for yourself.

...what pisses me off,,,and is reason this still bubbles up is how, at a subsequent event in my hometown,the class officer you mention said that she had been directed by yourself that the boat could not be used because it had paints and materials not used by the manufacturer,, ..something well outside the meaning or spirit of rule 26.

 

...my memory of you is one of blocking for your buddies both on and off the water......so yeh,,if you want to talk about your motives and credibility,,,,you can expect I'll likely bring something like this up.

 

...of course you didn't see the boat again, or myself for that matter...I moved on to better things from a class that was helmed by the likes of you!..........'revolting' indeed.

 

 

 

26. Repairs & Maintenance Repairs and preventative maintenance to the sail, hull, deck, centreboard, rudder, mast, boom or any fittings and fixings may be carried out without violation of these Rules provided such repairs are made in such a way that the essential shape, characteristics or function of the original are not affected.

 

Hijack

Sometimes Couchsurfer really pisses me off. This morning is one of those times.

He has been blowing this up and misrepresenting my position and actions for sixteen years now.

He brought a boat to a Laser regatta on the west Coast and various competitors complained he had a cheater boat. NA VP Lainie Pardey explained to me the boat had been questioned at other events and she was concerned the boat was modified.
I was the newly elected NA VP and Measurer and present at my first West Coast event so I got dragged in to "do something about this."

I visited the boat with Couchsurfer and Lainie and I explained, "I can't tell by just looking and poking whether this boat has been made better than a Laser. I don't have any reason to suspect cheating or accuse (Couchsurfer) of cheating but other sailors are complaining. (Not to me. I was the new guy in what was described to me as an ongoing mess)
On that afternoon I explained to Couchsurfer his boat was certainly unique in appearance. If recollection serves accurately, the nonskid area was a baby blue color and made from
paint as opposed to the original molded surface.
And... If I remember correctly, I believe I pointed out to Couchsurfer it appeared to me large areas of the deck had probably been cut open and rebuilt.
But
And this is very important to comprehending the truth and discrediting couchsurfer's 15 year vendetta of trash talk....

I did not suggest he do anything at that event but sail that boat and have a good time doing so!!!


What I did do is say something very close to the following:


You (Couchsurfer) obviously have done a lot of work on this boat. You sail near or at the front of the fleet.
You could easily have made major modifications to this boat
You may have rebuilt this boat to the exact specifications used at the factory.
You CHOSE to make the boat unique in appearance and you know its unique appearance has caused others to ask questions.
You have told me there are other old boats you have rescued and refurbished.
My SUGGESTION is you (Couchsurfer) bring some other boat than this unique one to future events.
It doesn't matter if this boat is 100% equal to a stock boat. What matters is it is deliberately made unique and others are demanding we "do something " about your unique boat.



I told him something like:

I live 2500 miles from here and will probably never see this boat again.
but... I am stuck in a position where my job includes ferreting out illegal Lasers and removing that equipment and those who would use it from our contests

So, please do not bring this boat to any more major events

If you don't bring it around anymore, life will be easier for both of us.


ABSOLUTELY no one has ever mentioned to me EVER seeing that boat ANYWHERE again.
As far as I concerned that discussion on that day ended any involvement on my part about any consideration of that boat

I did make it back to the West coast and Couchsurfer sailed a different boat.


Additional note:
Couchsurfer also sold some refinished foils. The ones I have seen appear to be painted with something like Awlgrip or Imron. There was no evidence on the blades I saw the shape had been modified.
I know I expressed my opinion about resurfacing blades and couchsurfer's blades absolutely were refinished as I would hope others would.
It appeared he filled gouges, prepared the surface, and applied a thin hard durable coating.

He was not changing performance. He was creating blades whose new surfaces needed much less maintenance.

In fact his price was so low, it was obvious to me he was just doing it because he liked helping people have nice toys


STFU Couchsurfer!!! I am sick and tired of your weenie assed attempts to disparage my reputation with lies and bullshit indicating I did something other than that which is described above.

And
My invitation still stands. Sailing against you is a hoot. Any time you can find your way to Austin I will make certain you have a boat for the races.
Unless you move here, in which case you will need to get your own long term toy.


End hijack

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Sheesh.....

We stood by the boat and chatted for at least half an hour.

I remember talking about how it was more of a social situation than a rules situation.

You didn't try to hide the fact you had done major refurbishment

In fact you made your boat look special

 

People were pissed about your special boat

 

You were proud of it.

 

I had no reason to believe your intention was to create anything but a good solid laser

 

 

When we had finished that conversation I know for damn well certain my position had been made clear to both you and Lainie Pardey.

 

I had no intention of calling you a cheater or making a big fuss about your old hull that didn't flex and go slow like every other old hull in the world.

I doubted it have you a significant advantage over a new boat and didn't care to waste any more time fussing about the boat.

 

I believe we chatted bout fixing up another boat while restraining yourself from making it look special

 

But

I never sent anybody to throw you out of any regatta

I had no such power .... Ever!!!

 

And

 

I have never sailed on a single serious race ever where I participated in any form of team racing.

 

Your accusation is made without a scintilla of factual support.

 

Never done that

 

Has not happened.

 

Your impression of who I am is warped

 

Once again

 

My invitation stands

 

Anytime you can get yourself to Austin I will supply the boat

 

Maybe you can meet me all over again and learn who I am

 

You are going to have a hard time finding another person who shares your absurdly warped impression of me

 

As

 

I am not and never have been such a person as you describe

 

Please quit your psychotic stalking

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It seems to be a common human trait to concentrate on the means rather than the ends. Clubs and associations are the means by which we have fun sailboat racing and socialising. Maybe (just thought of this) there's a tendency to leave running the clubs and associations to people who derive satisfaction from doing that, and that's why running the organisation has a bit of a tendency to become an aim in itself: that is the aim - even if they don't consciously realise - of the folks doing the hard graft.

 

 

Maybe I can see that in the Laser mess in that Maclaren is now run to make money pure and simple rather than, as enthusiast run businesses tend to be, run to be in the sport and make a decent living doing it. And the Us Laser association looks at this distance like an organisation whose prime purpose is to continue to exist and pay its staff.

 

Seems to be a very easy trap to fall in, but the result is somehow neither the company nor the assoc is serving the sailors as well as they used to.

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.

..nice re-manufacture of past events,,but that's the case --it's far enough in the past to bother with the details,,,,but you can be sure these come to the surface whenever you start to blab about your motives and credibility.....you had enough people questioning this in one way or another that it would generally be worth a bit of introspection

 

.........and stop inviting me to your frikking bunny event---not going to happen......why would I attend an event you host when I left the class because of you**

 

 

 

.....**btw,,,rather a favor in the end--after all the other fun boats I've sailed,I couldn't imagine still being in lasers full time

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sheesh.....
We stood by the boat and chatted for at least half an hour.
I remember talking about how it was more of a social situation than a rules situation.
You didn't try to hide the fact you had done major refurbishment
In fact you made your boat look special

People were pissed about your special boat

You were proud of it.

I had no reason to believe your intention was to create anything but a good solid laser


When we had finished that conversation I know for damn well certain my position had been made clear to both you and Lainie Pardey.

I had no intention of calling you a cheater or making a big fuss about your old hull that didn't flex and go slow like every other old hull in the world.
I doubted it have you a significant advantage over a new boat and didn't care to waste any more time fussing about the boat.

I believe we chatted bout fixing up another boat while restraining yourself from making it look special

But
I never sent anybody to throw you out of any regatta
I had no such power .... Ever!!!

And

I have never sailed on a single serious race ever where I participated in any form of team racing.

Your accusation is made without a scintilla of factual support.

Never done that

Has not happened.

Your impression of who I am is warped

Once again

My invitation stands

Anytime you can get yourself to Austin I will supply the boat

Maybe you can meet me all over again and learn who I am

You are going to have a hard time finding another person who shares your absurdly warped impression of me

As

I am not and never have been such a person as you describe

Please quit your psychotic stalking

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.

I left the class because of you.

 

.....And we have a nomination for a Laser Class Lifetime Service Award

.

...hah...th'Goddess has spoken

 

 

..I can't think of a prettier way to remove this thread form th'revolting' category! :wub:

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The point is this:

 

"At home I see too much emphasis on running the club as opposed to using the club to run the game."

 

 

Let's see where that goes.

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Honestly, I'm sitting here in a big office tower trying to do work. But it's 79 degrees and sunny outside.

 

I'd rather be out sailing.

 

<soapbox>

 

Just please try to keep a little bit of perspective on our arguments and try to keep in mind that I think we all have one similar goal in mind: we want to go out sailing and have a good time. Any organization that helps us all to get more enjoyment - individually and collectively - is probably on balance a good thing. Any organization that detracts from our collective enjoyment will go away all on it's own.

 

</soapbox>

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