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    • UnderDawg

      A Few Simple Rules   05/22/2017

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Doug Lord

Gunboat G4 Foiler

1,061 posts in this topic

They can race in the Caribbean circuit like they will next week against a reasonable fleet in St Barts. I wonder if they will do the Caribbean 600? I think that might be pushing the limits, but doable.

 

Besides the G4, Les Voiles de St Barths Entry list includes:

 

Phaedo 3 (the Mod 70 rated much faster than the G4)

Paradox (Former ORMA 60 racing tri updated with some cruising ameneties =-rated a bit faster than the G4),

A GC 32 (not yet rated on the site. I would think this boat would be even more handful in moderate seas)

Elvis (Gunboat 62)

Toccata (Gunboat 55)

 

 

http://app.regattaguru.com/lesvoiles/100085/entry_list/

 

Wonder how they came up with the rating for the G4? CSA was based on Texel so maybe Texel has already thought to include foilers? Or some one took a wild ass guess? It is forecast to be 14-20 with lots of point to point, around the island racing. If there are long legs at the right angles, they could do very well. Forecast is for 15-20 (mostly on the lower end of that). I'll be watching them from behind.

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Yes, by God, it is a Revolution! Thanks for the livestream

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Thanks solo. I didn't know that. It's a very fast cruiser.

 

I just had similar sized C boards built for the Bieker 53. They were built by someone who built foils for the Oracle AC72. They were expensive but nowhere near $100K (less than half that for both). We also built a scale model board and had a test facility break it to make sure they performed as engineers expected. They broke slightly earlier than predicted so the boards were stengthened slightly.

 

Lots of expense in the bearing system to allow raising/lowering under load. There is a designed failure system if a board hits something at speed. Depending on speed and the weight/give of the object, the severity goes from minor ding to crash zone crumble (inside the hull and contained) to oh shit, we're fucked. The boards are stronger than anything else on the boat so the concern is that you don't rip a hole in the hull, which is possible in the worst case scenario. But no worse than a monohull keel hitting something big and hard at speed. The box is built to similar strength as a keel sump. I assume the G4 has a similar design.

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Interesting, because the AC72 foils reportedly approached 500K a pair.

...so I couldn't figure out why this particular GunBoat was such a bargain. :)

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Interesting, because the AC72 foils reportedly approached 500K a pair.

...so I couldn't figure out why this particular GunBoat was such a bargain. :)

Titanium cast parts plus a shite load of development.

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And GC32s are somewhere around 20 for a matched set IIRC

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Former ORMA 60 racing tri updated with some cruising ameneties

Paradox was build new based on ORMA tris but isn't or was it one.

 

http://www.nigelirens.com/boats/sail-boats/paradox

 

Based on the hull moulds of the ORMA 60 racing trimaran FUFICOLOR, the 19.15m (63ft) PARADOX is the ultimate high performance cruiser racer built for an owner who just likes to sail fast. Launched in 2010, PARADOX has a significantly shorter rotating wing mast and 3.6m (12ft) narrower beam than an ORMA 60 making it less powerful and easier to sail short-handed with a non-professional crew. PARADOX has a fully functioning cruising interior with plenty of space and headroom and the Irens design team have incorporated essential cruising solutions like the neat stowaway articulating anchor arm and the tender garage. PARADOX took line honour in the 2013 RORC Caribbean 600 at an average speed of 15 knots.

 

 

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That cast left me bored after about 30 sec. Cut to the chase. Everything foiling in three year? Get real. The boat looks great, but lets let the hyperbole go.

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For lift off TWS, depends on the weight on board. If you are light (empty water tank, couple of rounds only, 5 up, no 700lb sailfish in the cockpit) I have told the team the boat will get up in 14 knots of TWS, and stay up even if it lulls to 12. Reaching angles of course.

 

As far as sailing in non foiling mode, the boat is damned quick too. No you cannot shut off the wetted surface, but you can neutralize the induced drag with rake control. In 10 knots of TWS, expect to be sailing upwind with boatspeeds 12-13 knots, VMG is not quite 8. Crack off, hoist the reacher and you sail 16-17 knots pretty easily, that is 1.7 times windspeed. Downwind VMG in 10 kn TWS is also 10 kn, sailing 15 knots to do it.

 

Just got a nice message from Mischa on board: "It is amazing. It handles so easy and every person on the boat feels instantly safe while cruising at 30kn."

 

Thanks for the feedback on required wind for flight.

 

Have they done any "heavy" flying yet? 4 or more adults with a reasonable cruising load aboard? (Water, galley module, people and their stuff, maybe a bit of sushi but not 700 lbs.) Do you expect that will change the TWS required for flight by a couple of knots? 5 knots?

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Just don't stuff it in during the sundowners

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They can race in the Caribbean circuit like they will next week against a reasonable fleet in St Barts. I wonder if they will do the Caribbean 600? I think that might be pushing the limits, but doable.

 

Besides the G4, Les Voiles de St Barths Entry list includes:

 

Phaedo 3 (the Mod 70 rated much faster than the G4)

Paradox (Former ORMA 60 racing tri updated with some cruising ameneties =-rated a bit faster than the G4),

A GC 32 (not yet rated on the site. I would think this boat would be even more handful in moderate seas)

Elvis (Gunboat 62)

Toccata (Gunboat 55)

 

 

http://app.regattaguru.com/lesvoiles/100085/entry_list/

 

Wonder how they came up with the rating for the G4? CSA was based on Texel so maybe Texel has already thought to include foilers? Or some one took a wild ass guess? It is forecast to be 14-20 with lots of point to point, around the island racing. If there are long legs at the right angles, they could do very well. Forecast is for 15-20 (mostly on the lower end of that). I'll be watching them from behind.

Mostly, I consider those to be "fun" races rather than "serious" races - serious being the term used by the poster to whom I was replying

 

If you look at the scratch sheets for most Caribbean events you mostly see a collection of pretty widely varying boats racing against each other in divisions that no handicap or rating rule can possibly accommodate.

 

i know they have had gunboat divisions at some events, and if understand correctly they have their own rating system - it probably works pretty well

 

But the G4 will pretty seriously challenge any possible rating rule - it will be a hell of a lot of fun to sail though

 

I am much more sceptical about rating and handicap systems in general than most sailors - so I appreciate that my view of this probably isn't shared

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Tom

 

as far as I am concerned the boat is already medium heavy. 7 up in all pictures I have seen though they are righting moment to be sure. Ok no race gear and water on board. The kitchen unit is on board in every shot I have seen. Tank is unknown but they filled it for the rating measurement. Sure Mischa emptied again.

 

I have not calculated but I would say take off boat speed vary by less than 1.5 knot each 500 kg in the area of interest. Roughly speaking that can translate also to 1 to 2 knots wind speed as well, though transom immersion is not exactly a linear factor. Not a 5 knot tws variation in a quick check.

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I'm dead impressed with the G4. No reason to doubt it, PJ and Mischa and Ben are all geniuses, but nevertheless its a helluva an accomplishment. Well done. I expect orders dr the G4 to come in quickly now.

 

That's a great fleet for Les Voiles. Not many events field a better class. I wish I could be there. i wouldn't read too much into corrected performance, it's all about on the water performances (or above the water, whatever the case may be).

 

Finish order predictions for Les Voiles:

Phaedo

Paradox

Gc32

G4

Elvis

Dauphin Telecom

Tocato

Outremer

TS50

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does the link not work? open on desktop/not mobile version and theres an embedded video of the G4 foiling

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does the link not work? open on desktop/not mobile version and theres an embedded video of the G4 foiling

 

It works. Problem is the video is too short! :)

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does the link not work? open on desktop/not mobile version and theres an embedded video of the G4 foiling

I think what we all want to see is a few ~15-30 second shots from the helicopter of the boat foiling - To give us a sense how the boat goes

 

I was not expecting to see it against other boats at this early stage- that's asking too much

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I was not expecting to see it against other boats at this early stage- that's asking too much

 

 

Why?

 

Formula 1 teams routinely have friendly races against cars from other manufacturers to help sort specifics against known benchmark rides.

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I was not expecting to see it against other boats at this early stage- that's asking too much

 

 

Why?

 

Formula 1 teams routinely have friendly races against cars from other manufacturers to help sort specifics against known benchmark rides.

 

 

Their just learning the new boat at this time.

 

Once they have learned the new design, I'm sure they will be happy to give it a go.

 

One step at at time.

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Sensational effort from the design and build team, you dared to go beyond the 'what if and the 'could we?'........

 

Trickle down has just dribbled down the front of my shirt!

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Soma In the lighter conditions do you really think Pheado would have it over a GC32??

 

I'm dead impressed with the G4. No reason to doubt it, PJ and Mischa and Ben are all geniuses, but nevertheless its a helluva an accomplishment. Well done. I expect orders dr the G4 to come in quickly now.

 

That's a great fleet for Les Voiles. Not many events field a better class. I wish I could be there. i wouldn't read too much into corrected performance, it's all about on the water performances (or above the water, whatever the case may be).

 

Finish order predictions for Les Voiles:

Phaedo

Paradox

Gc32

G4

Elvis

Dauphin Telecom

Tocato

Outremer

TS50

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Looks like they maybe hit something at 33 seconds.

 

 

Looks like seaweed.

Now all they need to do is hit a tuna with that sashimi blade, and they will have sushi to go with the cocktails...

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Soma In the lighter conditions do you really think Pheado would have it over a GC32??

 

 

I'm dead impressed with the G4. No reason to doubt it, PJ and Mischa and Ben are all geniuses, but nevertheless its a helluva an accomplishment. Well done. I expect orders dr the G4 to come in quickly now.

 

That's a great fleet for Les Voiles. Not many events field a better class. I wish I could be there. i wouldn't read too much into corrected performance, it's all about on the water performances (or above the water, whatever the case may be).

 

Finish order predictions for Les Voiles:

Phaedo

Paradox

Gc32

G4

Elvis

Dauphin Telecom

Tocato

Outremer

TS50

Phaedo will fly the main hull in 8kts. I think Paradox will have a very hard time, though, below 18kts or so. I think it'll be a case of Chutes and Ladders with the foilers. In flat water they should truck but you spend plenty of time in lumpy water at Les Voiles. I'd think foiling in typical Caribbean offshore swell that the foilers will be in displacement mode. We'll see though.

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Bloody Damn fantastic!!!!

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Looks like they maybe hit something at 33 seconds.

 

 

 

...I'm sure we'll all know when they do! :mellow:

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looking good...... this will only get better, as they refine their sailing foiling skills....

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Absolutely amazing how much potential is there.

 

Welcome to the fourth mode!

 

20 ktsb's right around the corner!

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does the link not work? open on desktop/not mobile version and theres an embedded video of the G4 foiling

I think what we all want to see is a few ~15-30 second shots from the helicopter of the boat foiling - To give us a sense how the boat goes

 

I was not expecting to see it against other boats at this early stage- that's asking too much

 

Yes… and glasses of wine, pretty women and a quiet anchorage at the end of the day. Marketing seems to be the driving force. Sell it and they will come.

 

I think it has the potential to be a great toy.

 

I hope the development continues and they have stable foiling. Some good race results would be the first indication of their having achieved this.

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Sorry Soma I meant Paradox not Pheado. I would have thought the GC would have it over her in the 15-20 forecast.

 

 

Soma In the lighter conditions do you really think Pheado would have it over a GC32??

 

 

I'm dead impressed with the G4. No reason to doubt it, PJ and Mischa and Ben are all geniuses, but nevertheless its a helluva an accomplishment. Well done. I expect orders dr the G4 to come in quickly now.

 

That's a great fleet for Les Voiles. Not many events field a better class. I wish I could be there. i wouldn't read too much into corrected performance, it's all about on the water performances (or above the water, whatever the case may be).

 

Finish order predictions for Les Voiles:

Phaedo

Paradox

Gc32

G4

Elvis

Dauphin Telecom

Tocato

Outremer

TS50

Phaedo will fly the main hull in 8kts. I think Paradox will have a very hard time, though, below 18kts or so. I think it'll be a case of Chutes and Ladders with the foilers. In flat water they should truck but you spend plenty of time in lumpy water at Les Voiles. I'd think foiling in typical Caribbean offshore swell that the foilers will be in displacement mode. We'll see though.

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FWIW - impressive stuff - if only it was an Irens design with those hull lines as seen in the 55 & 60.

 

His boats have always been pretty and devastatingly quick - sort of Reichel & Pugh for multis.....

 

I strongly feel that his hull lines speak more Aston Martin/Ferrari California, than the G4's stubby sort of NASCAR look. (No offence intended to whomever did design those hulls,,,,)

 

I know that fast = attractive in many peoples eyes, but wouldn't this boat be more of everything with more design flair.

 

Just sayin.......

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G4 has its own look, not as beautiful as an Irens or VPLP trimaran ... but then you're comparing an individual amd somewhat blocky cat with elegant trimaran aesthetics.

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Tom

 

as far as I am concerned the boat is already medium heavy. 7 up in all pictures I have seen though they are righting moment to be sure. Ok no race gear and water on board. The kitchen unit is on board in every shot I have seen. Tank is unknown but they filled it for the rating measurement. Sure Mischa emptied again.

 

I have not calculated but I would say take off boat speed vary by less than 1.5 knot each 500 kg in the area of interest. Roughly speaking that can translate also to 1 to 2 knots wind speed as well, though transom immersion is not exactly a linear factor. Not a 5 knot tws variation in a quick check.

 

Thanks, ST.

 

So, lithium batteries for the blender?

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If it's not being marketed as a cruising boat, as some would say on this thread, then why is it hitting the press pages with Cruising writ large all over the place?

 

http://www.yachtingworld.com/blogs/toby-hodges-blog/watch-the-worlds-first-foiling-cruiser-take-flight-at-30-knots-first-video-of-gunboats-g4-63363

 

http://sailinganarch...ying-timbalero/

 

If one sits back and judges the influence of Mr. Johnstone on these publications, then the cruising suggestion is no accident. "oh, sorry, we meant to say it was only a casually accommodating "weekender" with no pretension as to it capacity as a real cruising vessel."

 

Come on, guys, get your stories straight. This boat is no more of a Cruiser than my Grandmother's '60 Chevy station wagon was a Recreational Vehicle.

.

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Boink, we kept the design as functional as we could. The blocky looks mostly come from the high hulls towards the back. This raised the pilot position so he has good forward visibility. Same for the low flat cabin roof.

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Chris

I was counting the seconds until you " Mr Negative" hopped on here to trash the G4. Didn't have to wait long. It seems that you feel compelled to trash anyone making a success of their endeavors. I guess in your mind that makes you successful. That aside the G4, which by any measure is an amazing breakthrough, is being marketed as a regatta killer that can be cruised to and from the event. It is not as comfortable as my Fusion 40 was but I can see myself happily spending time aboard a G4. Two queen sized berths, galley to be used at anchor, killer cockpit and a head or two. What more does a guy need? Compare that to any other fully foiling cat on the market and the cruising tag is pretty hard to dispute. And remember, fast boats can be made to sail slowly, slow boats will never sail fast!

Have a positive day!

Wayne

PS Hopefully you are driving Granny's Chevy station wagon. Those were cool!

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That aside the G4, which by any measure is an amazing breakthrough, is being marketed as a regatta killer that can be cruised to and from the event. It is not as comfortable as my Fusion 40 was but I can see myself happily spending time aboard a G4. Two queen sized berths, galley to be used at anchor, killer cockpit and a head or two. What more does a guy need?

 

A functional galley under way is the obvious distinction between "cruising" and making long passages fueled by trail mix and cold beer.

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G32 will own around the bouys. Impressive for a kitted out boat, although the compromise foils seem to require huge helm to keep it flying, but good to see it rises and falls graciously. Will be interested to see how unforgiving it may or may not be...

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You predict GC32 ahead of a mod70? Forecast has freshened a bit but still light for the Caribbean. 16-18.

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Boink, we kept the design as functional as we could. The blocky looks mostly come from the high hulls towards the back. This raised the pilot position so he has good forward visibility. Same for the low flat cabin roof.

 

Oh. So I guess you're the guy to whom I should direct my apology for the Nomination for Admiration by the Society? ;)

 

Sounds to me like you know what you did and why, so well done!

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Chris

I was counting the seconds until you " Mr Negative" hopped on here to trash the G4. Didn't have to wait long. It seems that you feel compelled to trash anyone making a success of their endeavors. I guess in your mind that makes you successful. That aside the G4, which by any measure is an amazing breakthrough, is being marketed as a regatta killer that can be cruised to and from the event. It is not as comfortable as my Fusion 40 was but I can see myself happily spending time aboard a G4. Two queen sized berths, galley to be used at anchor, killer cockpit and a head or two. What more does a guy need? Compare that to any other fully foiling cat on the market and the cruising tag is pretty hard to dispute. And remember, fast boats can be made to sail slowly, slow boats will never sail fast!

Have a positive day!

Wayne

PS Hopefully you are driving Granny's Chevy station wagon. Those were cool!

 

The wagon is in escrow... ;-)

 

I've already given my kudos, but then, maybe you weren't into reading when that happened. Anybody here... and there are hundreds of them, can make the "It's a cruiser proclamation" and then be willing, on paper, to sign-up for the old school Vanagon campingness of it all.... but this isn't a cruiser in any distorted look at the lexicon that has been bandied about on these very pages for years. Go to some of the cruising sites where the hardcore gather and push that monkey dance and see what it gets you.

 

So, if I'm Mr. Negative then perhaps we shall need to call you Mr. Hyperbole... but that title is already taken by Doug Lord. Clearly you have nested yourself in some very ripe "cruising company" there, my friend.... There is still time to recover the common sense we all know you have in that anchor locker of yours.

.

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I think it's more Racer/Cruiser rather than Cruiser/Racer?

We eagerly await the first pilothouse foiler. It can't be long. Thanks for getting the video out, it's fun to watch. I think boat looks quite purposefully badass in the video the aesthetics make more sense to me now. I imagine you could rig up an reasonable cockpit cover with the boom and with a few carbon fiber poles and it would make a decent weekender as long as it was warm out.

 

By the way, it just occurred to me that "foiling" and "tin foil hat" are kind of similar. That may explain some of the debate in the Multihull and AC forums.

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I go away for 5 mins and come back to foiling cruisermarangs... sheeeesh.

I love those uTIp foils.......

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Will be interesting sailing it in a fleet with that much movement of the tiller to get her up, all the slower boats have to do is take them up when they see them coming. Will be good to see it around a wind ward, leeward track, the miles it will travel compared to some one that can run lower and less.

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If it's not being marketed as a cruising boat, as some would say on this thread, then why is it hitting the press pages with Cruising writ large all over the place?

 

http://www.yachtingworld.com/blogs/toby-hodges-blog/watch-the-worlds-first-foiling-cruiser-take-flight-at-30-knots-first-video-of-gunboats-g4-63363

 

http://sailinganarch...ying-timbalero/

 

If one sits back and judges the influence of Mr. Johnstone on these publications, then the cruising suggestion is no accident. "oh, sorry, we meant to say it was only a casually accommodating "weekender" with no pretension as to it capacity as a real cruising vessel."

 

Come on, guys, get your stories straight. This boat is no more of a Cruiser than my Grandmother's '60 Chevy station wagon was a Recreational Vehicle.

.

I believe it's being marketed as a costal cruiser.

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Hey Rudo, thanks for the reply, love your work and congrats to you and your colleagues - Care to share the inside development of your creation?

 

Can you give us the inside skinny on the dagger board trunks - would these have been designed to allow retro fit of other shapes, board curvature and foil chord as foil developments have shown little in terms of stability in shape since first seen on ETNZ?

 

Does the driver have a porthole in the floor to judge altitude on the daggerboard - or is this easy enough from the acceleration or deceleration of the boat and more general perspective?

 

Is there now even more reason (with hydro foiling) to place the helm up front - forward even of the daggerboards - for uninterrupted viewing of wind, waves, floating debris and more easily sensing altitude - or is this negated by the weight of the associated complex steering system?

 

Can you share what the top 5 features you would brag about - that we would have no clue about?

 

Can you share what, if any, changes are in the mix for future builds - e.g. deck layout, omissions, additions, sail recuts, rigging layout, inclusion of runners etc????

 

What finish are the foils given?

 

Thanks.

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Hey Boink,

those are a lot of questions... Most of which are strategical R&D decisions I gladly leave to Peter to chime in on!

As for the db I can tell you that the first boat has a long db case that allows 3 test positions 31 cm apart. Since it is a foiling craft the db position is not only determined by lateral resistance but also by weight balance we thought that was a good idea. We will evaluate with the test riders and decide on a final position.

good winds,

Rudo

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Fantastic boat. I would love to experience the exhileration.

But calling it a cruising boat is beyond my imagination. I simply would not dare taking anybody aboard less than professional sailors let alone some kids and friends.

Is it me thinking that the boat is frequently more bow down than ı would be comfortable with? Gives me the impression that it is about to be pitchpoled any moment. Somehow wish the foils to be a foot or so more forward than where they are.

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Will be interesting sailing it in a fleet with that much movement of the tiller to get her up, all the slower boats have to do is take them up when they see them coming. Will be good to see it around a wind ward, leeward track, the miles it will travel compared to some one that can run lower and less.

 

I believe they said they were running at 160 TWA. That is lower than a slower boat, and much faster.

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I go away for 5 mins and come back to foiling cruisermarangs... sheeeesh.

I love those uTIp foils.......

 

At least the colour almost matches the ducati.... and this look like the best way I've seen to get to Coffs in a hurry in the first week of Jan each year this side of Virgin.

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I go away for 5 mins and come back to foiling cruisermarangs... sheeeesh.

I love those uTIp foils.......

 

At least the colour almost matches the ducati.... and this look like the best way I've seen to get to Coffs in a hurry in the first week of Jan each year this side of Virgin.

 

a Color match for Virgin too..

 

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Fantastic boat. I would love to experience the exhileration.

But calling it a cruising boat is beyond my imagination. I simply would not dare taking anybody aboard less than professional sailors let alone some kids and friends.

Is it me thinking that the boat is frequently more bow down than ı would be comfortable with? Gives me the impression that it is about to be pitchpoled any moment. Somehow wish the foils to be a foot or so more forward than where they are.

I agree.

As cool as this thing is, my feeling is that it won't be too long before the is a FP article about how the new G4 is upside down.

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Maybe, but I think that's better than having the keel drop off.

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Fantastic boat. I would love to experience the exhileration.

But calling it a cruising boat is beyond my imagination. I simply would not dare taking anybody aboard less than professional sailors let alone some kids and friends.

Is it me thinking that the boat is frequently more bow down than ı would be comfortable with? Gives me the impression that it is about to be pitchpoled any moment. Somehow wish the foils to be a foot or so more forward than where they are.

I agree.

As cool as this thing is, my feeling is that it won't be too long before the is a FP article about how the new G4 is upside down.

 

 

We started reporting on the faster, lighter, more powerful GC32 around 35 months ago. How many of those are upside down?

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Not a criuser? A races doesnt have any accomondation - a cruiser/racer has ... this has.

 

You can easy sail it conservatively if you dont have the skills onboard to go full trottle.

 

Things can happend if you dont use your brain - but you are very unlycky if its fatal, if things happend on a fast bike or in a fast car it would very easy be fatal.

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There are all out racers. All out are cruisers. Racer/cruisers. But the G4 looks like it has three modes. Fast cruising. Turbo cruising. And racing. It doesn't look like you can lash everything down and have a beer in turbo mode but it's a nice option to have if you want to get somewhere faster than ever before.

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'60 Chevy Impala. Dual quad 427 with four on the floor. Interstate RV because of the roof racks, can sleep on floor in back and bring the cooler and Coleman stove.

 

Hey, a fast car can always be driven slow.... even though it still gets shitty mileage.

 

Yes, guys. I have to agree. This certainly is an RV

 

 

 

chevrolet60impalanomad1.jpg

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now you got it Chris, though you don't need to go quite so far back. This is the Ed's old car.

 

dodge-magnum-wagon-04.jpg

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'60 Chevy Impala. Dual quad 427 with four on the floor. Interstate RV because of the roof racks, can sleep on floor in back and bring the cooler and Coleman stove.

 

Hey, a fast car can always be driven slow.... even though it still gets shitty mileage.

 

Yes, guys. I have to agree. This certainly is an RV

 

 

 

chevrolet60impalanomad1.jpg

And not very good at the corners......

now you got it Chris, though you don't need to go quite so far back. This is the Ed's old car.

 

dodge-magnum-wagon-04.jpg

And still not very good at corners..........

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The relentless GunBoat promotion is nauseating and boring at the same time.

 

The "foiling" on the video also looks crap. It seems unstable and pitching nose down.

 

GB are still up to their old tricks of implying in the video that fast sailing is also a champagne cruise.

 

Redirection of content away from trustfund toys to real sailors and sailing would be greatly appreciated.

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The G4 flat out hauls ass and looks like you are taking your small guest cottage on an adrenaline ride. People talk of the GC32 and M32, and similar boats, as being an absurd amount of money for a platform with no place to hide, no place of comfort, being a huge investment for nothing more than a thrill ride. Well, along comes the G4 and you have a boat that is only a few knots shy of the GC32 & M32 (or hell, for that matter, the last AC class) in capability, but a boat that absolutely does have accommodations for sleeping at least six, plus a refrigerator & stove (and blender). Would you want to spend a month on the thing, non-stop? Nope. But until you get a LOT bigger, and/or more than 10-,15-,20+ knots slower, what boats are attractive to spend more than a few nights aboard? To think that the G4 isn't a pretty damned attractive offering for someone spending weekends around coasts and islands, mixing in some racing, ....., I think you are high. Think of the person with a house a Carib island and wants the boat to rip around the islands, do the odd race but more typically just have fun, have picnics and maybe the odd night roughing it out at a remote island, but generally wants to sleep back at the house.

 

I think it is hilarious that people seem to be ripping it, or acting like there aren't at least a handful of folks around who would want this right away, and lots more as time goes by, because it is either too fast or not as posh as other boats. Well, there is no other boat that comes close to this in what it does. Might be a good time to just marvel at how amazing they have mixed performance and accommodations, and see how it sells.

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The relentless GunBoat promotion is nauseating and boring at the same time.

 

The "foiling" on the video also looks crap. It seems unstable and pitching nose down.

 

GB are still up to their old tricks of implying in the video that fast sailing is also a champagne cruise.

 

Redirection of content away from trustfund toys to real sailors and sailing would be greatly appreciated.

 

Wow, because it does not fit what you want it is crap and a deception play from scumbags trying to milk those awful 1%ers. Brilliant.

 

One of first sails out of the box, ripping at more than 30knts with a frig, stove, and sleeping accommodations, and your genius can determine that it does not foil well.

 

:huh:

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To think that the G4 isn't a pretty damned attractive offering for someone spending weekends around coasts and islands, mixing in some racing, ....., I think you are high. Think of the person with a house a Carib island and wants the boat to rip around the islands, do the odd race but more typically just have fun, have picnics and maybe the odd night roughing it out at a remote island, but generally wants to sleep back at the house.

 

The G4 is an awesome accomplishment, a bold vision, well executed. As long as you are at anchor every night, you can even live aboard. It is a fairly unique market segment though, in that regard. Not what reasonable people expect of a "cruiser", even by Gunboat standards.

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Fantastic boat. I would love to experience the exhileration.

But calling it a cruising boat is beyond my imagination. I simply would not dare taking anybody aboard less than professional sailors let alone some kids and friends.

Is it me thinking that the boat is frequently more bow down than ı would be comfortable with? Gives me the impression that it is about to be pitchpoled any moment. Somehow wish the foils to be a foot or so more forward than where they are.

I agree.

As cool as this thing is, my feeling is that it won't be too long before the is a FP article about how the new G4 is upside down.

We started reporting on the faster, lighter, more powerful GC32 around 35 months ago. How many of those are upside down?

Not sure.

I know one very nearly went over, and that was with a top crew on board.

GC32 is an all out race machine, the G4 is a so called "weekender", complete with "friends" and "kids".

Very, very different situations.

The marketing of Gunboat makes it look like the G4 is a simple to sail, safe, flashy boat to weekend on with families on board, an "be the envy of everyone".

The type of buyer that is interested in that image will have it upside down in short order.

But that is just my opinion.

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To think that the G4 isn't a pretty damned attractive offering for someone spending weekends around coasts and islands, mixing in some racing, ....., I think you are high. Think of the person with a house a Carib island and wants the boat to rip around the islands, do the odd race but more typically just have fun, have picnics and maybe the odd night roughing it out at a remote island, but generally wants to sleep back at the house.

 

The G4 is an awesome accomplishment, a bold vision, well executed. As long as you are at anchor every night, you can even live aboard. It is a fairly unique market segment though, in that regard. Not what reasonable people expect of a "cruiser", even by Gunboat standards.

 

 

I'm guessing this Gunboat was never envisioned to compete with their other boats, in the least, for the same customers. It is not intended to be a "'cruiser" even by Gunboat standards". I would say it is designed for someone that wants one of, if not THE fastest boat around, wherever they go, but a boat that actually gives you SOMETHING other than a very wet, very uncomfortable platform good for nothing else. As I said, you can spend a fortune on a GC32 or M32, or get a boat that is nearly as fast but includes accommodations (even if they are relatively spartan) and beat pretty much all the same boats and/or get a similar thrill ride. Of course this will cost a lot more than a GC32 or M32, but at those costs and for these types of boats, the difference likely means less than how much more boat you get, at least for a good number of buyers. Are they hoping to sell thousands of these things? I doubt it. And its success won't require that it do so.

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Fantastic boat. I would love to experience the exhileration.

But calling it a cruising boat is beyond my imagination. I simply would not dare taking anybody aboard less than professional sailors let alone some kids and friends.

Is it me thinking that the boat is frequently more bow down than ı would be comfortable with? Gives me the impression that it is about to be pitchpoled any moment. Somehow wish the foils to be a foot or so more forward than where they are.

I agree.

As cool as this thing is, my feeling is that it won't be too long before the is a FP article about how the new G4 is upside down.

We started reporting on the faster, lighter, more powerful GC32 around 35 months ago. How many of those are upside down?

Not sure.

I know one very nearly went over, and that was with a top crew on board.

GC32 is an all out race machine, the G4 is a so called "weekender", complete with "friends" and "kids".

Very, very different situations.

The marketing of Gunboat makes it look like the G4 is a simple to sail, safe, flashy boat to weekend on with families on board, an "be the envy of everyone".

The type of buyer that is interested in that image will have it upside down in short order.

But that is just my opinion.

 

 

It will certainly be interesting to watch how these develop in the hands of amateur buyers. It would be nice if they could do a test crash in a stripped down G4 just to see how it responds to a foil crash / nose dive. Will the substantial weight of the boat make it less likely to pitch all the way over, or more so. I tend to think it (the weight) might result in pushing the noses forward, rather than down, and less likely for the ass to gain the altitude to flip all the way over. But it will be tough to know until it happens.

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The relentless GunBoat promotion is nauseating and boring at the same time.

 

The "foiling" on the video also looks crap. It seems unstable and pitching nose down.

 

GB are still up to their old tricks of implying in the video that fast sailing is also a champagne cruise.

 

Redirection of content away from trustfund toys to real sailors and sailing would be greatly appreciated.

 

 

Agree with the foiling issue but perhaps it's because they are just begining. Anyway I think it's not for the common cruising sailor, and I don't swallow the pill of drinking or resting with that zig zag motion.

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The "foiling" on the video also looks crap. It seems unstable and pitching nose down.

 

Bwahahahahahaha

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The relentless GunBoat promotion is nauseating and boring at the same time.

 

The "foiling" on the video also looks crap. It seems unstable and pitching nose down.

 

GB are still up to their old tricks of implying in the video that fast sailing is also a champagne cruise.

 

Redirection of content away from trustfund toys to real sailors and sailing would be greatly appreciated.

 

Sounds like someone is jealous because they'll never be able to afford a GB...

Regarding the foiling, it looks pretty stable to me, at least not less stable than keeping a cat sailing on one hull normally is. I would totally buy one today if I had the kind of cash required to own $1000000+ toys! I'm with Gaucho on this one, it might not be a big a market but there sure is nothing that even comes close to this in performance and accommodations combination!

 

As a side note, have you considered that there might be some good reasons for keeping the attitude slightly nose down when foiling?

Like reducing aero drag while improving visibility from the steering position for example? I think when going that fast it's nice to have a good view of the entire boat.

Mostly though, you want the bows down when you are foiling for stability: if you start coming down, you want the front to touch first which will result in an increase in AOA of the foils which will lift you back up slightly.

If you would rather see a nose up attitude while on foils, you go right ahead! But make someone is filming because I want to see how that pans out!

If you were foiling in a "nose up" attitude and started coming down it would be really ugly very fast! As the stern hits, the attitude changes couple degrees which pretty much kills the lift from the foils and you are going to come down really hard, which will result in more nose down from the apparent wind moving aft (and increasing). Now you are getting sucked down by the foils producing negative lift, with a good chance of pitch-pole and at least some serious "anything not secured (like crew)" flying forward.

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Any intelligent person can recognize and ignore the promotional hype.

 

The G4 is a fantasy for me and, I suspect, 99% of MA readers/posters. Sadly, we are not 1%ers.

 

Part of the fantasy is: if you can afford the G4, you can also afford 3 or 4 pros to sail it with you.

 

Would I like to live in the Carribean island hopping to regattas and foiling in the trades? Hell yeah! Will it ever happen? Hell no!

 

But I still enjoy watching the video and dreaming about it. Yeah, there is a lot of adjustment on the helm to keep her up on the foils. But it is still early, give em some time to work out the kinks.

 

Party on GB! haters gonna hate.

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and you have a boat that is only a few knots shy of the GC32 & M32

M32 should be quicker in very light air, but the G4 should destroy it upwind and on the foils. M32 very conventional.

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Fantastic boat. I would love to experience the exhileration.

But calling it a cruising boat is beyond my imagination. I simply would not dare taking anybody aboard less than professional sailors let alone some kids and friends.

Is it me thinking that the boat is frequently more bow down than ı would be comfortable with? Gives me the impression that it is about to be pitchpoled any moment. Somehow wish the foils to be a foot or so more forward than where they are.

I agree.

As cool as this thing is, my feeling is that it won't be too long before the is a FP article about how the new G4 is upside down.

We started reporting on the faster, lighter, more powerful GC32 around 35 months ago. How many of those are upside down?

Not sure.

I know one very nearly went over, and that was with a top crew on board.

 

 

None have gone over, zero. You know how many M32s flipped or broke their masts in the first 2 years? eight.

 

You know why? because foiling is a lot easier than non-foiling.

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Fantastic boat. I would love to experience the exhileration.

But calling it a cruising boat is beyond my imagination. I simply would not dare taking anybody aboard less than professional sailors let alone some kids and friends.

Is it me thinking that the boat is frequently more bow down than ı would be comfortable with? Gives me the impression that it is about to be pitchpoled any moment. Somehow wish the foils to be a foot or so more forward than where they are.

I agree.

As cool as this thing is, my feeling is that it won't be too long before the is a FP article about how the new G4 is upside down.

We started reporting on the faster, lighter, more powerful GC32 around 35 months ago. How many of those are upside down?

Not sure.

I know one very nearly went over, and that was with a top crew on board.

None have gone over, zero. You know how many M32s flipped or broke their masts in the first 2 years? eight.

 

You know why? because foiling is a lot easier than non-foiling.

I am a full supporter of foiling, and I truly look forward to the new developments, worldwide.

Yes, it is true that no GC32's have gone over, although as I said, one very nearly did, and if it was a bunch of punters instead of rockstars on board, it would have for sure.

How many M32's were sailing when 8 flipped or broke their masts?

How many GB55's were sailing when one broke its mast?

Again, I'm totally on board with the foiling "revolution", but when you have a boat like this marketed toward rich punters, it's only a matter of time.

I hope I'm wrong.

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Whats the use of having a boat like this and driving it slowly and cautiously with kids and friends aboard?

It would be like going to grocery shopping with a Ferrari.

Then again i have seen eager Ferrari owners not resisting the temptation to round a common side street in a haste, going into a spin and making fool of themselves.

The difference is.. You are more likely to learn and grow wiser in a fast car (Preferably alone) with tolerable consequences than not resisting to put her to its paces with several dear ones with grave consequances.

It is a great boat by all means. But i think its marketing pitch and targeted audiance for commercial considerations may be an invitation for a disaster waiting to happen.

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and you have a boat that is only a few knots shy of the GC32 & M32

M32 should be quicker in very light air, but the G4 should destroy it upwind and on the foils. M32 very conventional.

 

 

I was being conservative to make my point. I agree (about the M32), and it will be interesting to see the G4 go up against what was state of the art in performance, and total lack of accommodations,

 

Some of the negative comments in this thread are just so damned stupid.

 

"you wouldn't be able to sip wine while zig-zagging on foils". NO SHIT! When you are ripping at 30+ on foils, THAT is what you are doing . . . not sipping wine. But just because the G4 can do that does not mean you can't reduce sail and putt along at 12knts sipping wine. But that 'wine-sipping' boat that tops out at 12knts or less can't ever destroy just about every other boat around. The G4 can.

 

Gunboat is going to be able to sell the G4. How many? Who the hell knows (well, they probably do)? But there will absolutely be quite a few people out there that will love it, and it sure as shit is going to be fun watching compete against big, bad-ass racing-only boats . . .

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Whats the use of having a boat like this and driving it slowly and cautiously with kids and friends aboard?

It would be like going to grocery shopping with a Ferrari.

Then again i have seen eager Ferrari owners not resisting the temptation to round a common side street in a haste, going into a spin and making fool of themselves.

The difference is.. You are more likely to learn and grow wiser in a fast car (Preferably alone) with tolerable consequences than not resisting to put her to its paces with several dear ones with grave consequances.

It is a great boat by all means. But i think its marketing pitch and targeted audiance for commercial considerations may be an invitation for a disaster waiting to happen.

 

Funny, from the people who have driven them, it sounds as though the common take away is that the boat is easier to drive than they had imagined. Just because a boat (or car) can haul ass, does not mean you can't cruise when you want, and haul ass when you want. It also does not mean that it is inherently dangerous.

 

"What's the use...?" Maybe the same "use" as kick-ass touring sedans. 99% of the time you are just doing every-day driving. But every once in a while, you can open them up and kick ass on all but the hottest sports cars. The counter point can be why have a super hot boat that you can hardly ever use? Particularly when you can have one that you can use pretty often and can really open up when you want. I think their marketing pitch kicks ass . . . show that the boat is going to light your hair on fire when you want, but that it allows you to do 'normal' boating stuff, too. My guess is that there is a decent sized market out there where you have owners (likely couples) where one will go along with a big "toy" for competitive racing as long as it can be used for the more common stuff, too.

 

If my wife and I had a couple $Million to blow on a hot boat, I would think this would be the kind of boat we could agree upon. I don't see my wife wanting to spend many nights on board any boat, more likely preferring to sleep in a nice house on land, but she would want the kind of accommodations the G4 offers for long day or weekend outings. I would get the kick ass ride, and no other boat would match this for both.

 

Time will tell.

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At 30 knots, you're not gonna look over at lovey and say, Hon, Love,,,,, break out that Chard we picked up in New Zealand. You're gonna say, BITCH! Hold my beer and watch this!

 

Seriously. I've been fascinated with the foiling developments for a long time now. Every interview, video, etc., the point is made at how comfortable and effortless foiling is. There's really no reason to think it's not. I really dig this concept of compromise. Descriptive words like; weekender, picknick, or day sailor are probably more accurate than coastal cruiser....

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From an engineering stand point this is awesome. For the haters I have to say that there are many boats that I would not want to be out in a storm in and although this is one of them there are plenty other boats. If you are willing to ship the boat across oceans and do coastal sailing then this is an awesome product. Like all high performance items though treat it badly and it will treat you badly too. If you want to drink wine then go out in less than 15 knots and reduce the sail. Lets face it they shipped Commanche to Australia for the Sydney-Hobart on a time, practicality and cost basis and this is no different. There is a financial cost to sailing a high performance boat across an ocean.

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M32 vs GC32 vs G4.... think its hard to beat the M32 in light to medium air. Around a course with the M32 will be really hard to beat. Specially for the G4 that need more wind to foil. The foiling advantages is like 3-4knots? - but the speed is less than the M32 when not foiling - and for a race the foiling part would be less than 50%, and hard to mach the fast handling M32 to the finish.

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and you have a boat that is only a few knots shy of the GC32 & M32

M32 should be quicker in very light air, but the G4 should destroy it upwind and on the foils. M32 very conventional.

 

Have another look at that recent video you posted with the foiling kite, Moth and M32? Conventional but very quick.

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Question on the business model. No doubt an incredible achivement for all involved.

Holland Composites designs and builds the G4 with the designer Rudo Enserink, so

what does it make Gunboat as a company? Whats their role? Who owns the moulds? Is Gunboat

contracted to build all the future G4's with Holland Composites?

 

 

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M32 vs GC32 vs G4.... think its hard to beat the M32 in light to medium air. Around a course with the M32 will be really hard to beat. Specially for the G4 that need more wind to foil. The foiling advantages is like 3-4knots? - but the speed is less than the M32 when not foiling - and for a race the foiling part would be less than 50%, and hard to mach the fast handling M32 to the finish.

The GC foils downwind in 6kts wind, and does 18kts speed. Upwind it is happy to do 16kts (in 10-12kts wind) at same angles as the M32.

 

I would say that in very light stuff, less than 6kts wind there is a chance for the M32 to be quicker. But anything after that point it's game over. And not by a small margin. Like a lot...

 

The G4 looks nice, the guys are to be congratulated!!! Not sure if it's faster than the GC, but I had a call from a very well respected design office today and they had a client who has been told that the G4 is quicker by a salesperson... So who knows :)

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and you have a boat that is only a few knots shy of the GC32 & M32

M32 should be quicker in very light air, but the G4 should destroy it upwind and on the foils. M32 very conventional.

 

Have another look at that recent video you posted with the foiling kite, Moth and M32? Conventional but very quick.

 

 

Video doesn't really show anything real, it was a promo thing. M32 are quick but foiling vs. non-foiling isn't really in the same world.

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Question on the business model. No doubt an incredible achivement for all involved.

Holland Composites designs and builds the G4 with the designer Rudo Enserink, so

what does it make Gunboat as a company? Whats their role? Who owns the moulds? Is Gunboat

contracted to build all the future G4's with Holland Composites?

 

 

 

Who framed Roger Rabbit? Timmy fell down the well? How much wood could a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?

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Question on the business model. No doubt an incredible achivement for all involved.

Holland Composites designs and builds the G4 with the designer Rudo Enserink, so

what does it make Gunboat as a company? Whats their role? Who owns the moulds? Is Gunboat

contracted to build all the future G4's with Holland Composites?

 

 

 

Who framed Roger Rabbit? Timmy fell down the well? How much wood could a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?

 

 

Thank you! You are a gentleman and a scholar.

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Why not ask for their business plan while you're at it?

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Question on the business model. No doubt an incredible achivement for all involved.

Holland Composites designs and builds the G4 with the designer Rudo Enserink, so

what does it make Gunboat as a company? Whats their role? Who owns the moulds? Is Gunboat

contracted to build all the future G4's with Holland Composites?

 

Who framed Roger Rabbit? Timmy fell down the well? How much wood could a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?

Jesus, Clean.... I get protecting the golden goose and all, but sometimes not responding is the better choice.

 

Without knowing their business model, I'd venture a guess, 1. Gun Boat has and knows a network of potential buyers. 2. Marketing know how. (john stone of J Boats) 3. Financial ability to pull it off and keep it all together.

 

This is one of many Gun Boat. I believe they were not all built by the same yard, designed by the same people, etc. The name Gun Boat is the brand that keeps it all together.

 

That would be my guess.....

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Gimme a break Mr. Minister; you know you were thinking it.

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I raced one of Gino's 40 foot cats that had just about the same accomodation set up and just about the same size and shape. It is AMAZING how far we have come with materials technology that we can now produce that same essential boat as a fraction of the price (albeit many multiples of the price) and make it fly.

 

Can't imagine what the next 10 years will bring.

 

I am waiting for Zaphod Beeblebrox's boat.

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I hear that brother Evo..... say hallelujah........ Say hell yeah.......praise the Lord.... (not you Doug)

 

BTW Clean, the answer to the woodchuck question is 42... It always just is...

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All will be revealed at St Barts! I'm with Airwick, Gaucho, and Clean. Its a Fffantastic Foiling racer/cruiser. If Mischa Heemskerk says its so easy to foil along with everyone who has been lucky enough to get a ride so far. I don't doubt it is. Huge congratulations to GB, Peter Johnston and team. Cheers all.

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