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      A Few Simple Rules   05/22/2017

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Doug Lord

Gunboat G4 Foiler

1,061 posts in this topic

11083950_805433592838862_826463179406586

 

Sharon Green photo, boat has been re-righted. To my eye, this is ocean swell with some mixed chop, but not 15 TWS. Maybe 10-12? Anybody know more about the conditions

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Yes the foiling pics appear to be about those conditions. Don't reall the wind velocity reported on from page article by Ben Hall.

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Billy,

 

Ben was out in 18-20 TWS perhaps even up to 22 kn at times. Full on foiling conditions. The boat won't foil in 10 TWS, believe me. Will be great if we can find out what happened - over the side heeling, pitchpole, or a combination.

 

Some have suggested reverse pitchpole, but I am not going there.

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has a non-foiling Gunboat ever capsized?

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Looks like the mast is intact (which is a relief). Main looks like it has a tear. Bows look LOW in the water. Plenty of water in the hulls by the looks of things.

 

Forecast was 13-18. Even on light days there can be rumbly puffs coming over the island. Judging by the photos I think it's in the nw lee of the island.

 

Bummer. Still a wicked cool boat, and of course like all multihulls it can (and did) flip. I'd still prefer a g4 to any monohull in the world. But obviously an inopportune time to flip. Haters gonna hate. The trolls just got a feast.

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Ok jokes appart, does anyone really knows what happened, or we will have to wait for an official press release, within ... two months

 

 

high performance catamaran flips when it is being pushed hard in a race..., what's to explain?

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In 06 a SeaCart 30 flipped before the start of a regatta in Sweden .... the re-rightend it in the same way as here by using a rib and it later started in the regatta.

 

That was also early when the boat was new - I havent heard about SeaCart 30s that has flipped after that. (And after that regatta- Lidingø Rundt - the former owner of my T-35 flipped it too - which was the reason we bought it later... and it hasnt flipped again...so far...)

 

The G4 will now get a real bad-ass reputation!

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Ok jokes appart, does anyone really knows what happened, or we will have to wait for an official press release, within ... two months

 

high performance catamaran flips when it is being pushed hard in a race..., what's to explain?

 

 

People with much more knowledge than me (DS) ask the same question

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Crap! I hope everyone is OK.

 

Cruiser.... Racer, whatever... nobody likes to see this.

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Fantastic boat. I would love to experience the exhileration.

But calling it a cruising boat is beyond my imagination. I simply would not dare taking anybody aboard less than professional sailors let alone some kids and friends.

Is it me thinking that the boat is frequently more bow down than ı would be comfortable with? Gives me the impression that it is about to be pitchpoled any moment. Somehow wish the foils to be a foot or so more forward than where they are.

I agree.

As cool as this thing is, my feeling is that it won't be too long before the is a FP article about how the new G4 is upside down.

We started reporting on the faster, lighter, more powerful GC32 around 35 months ago. How many of those are upside down?

I hate to say I towed a so Clean, but, I fuckin I towed a so(trailer park boys fans will get it).

Honestly, I didn't think it would happen this soon, I figured they would get half a season or so out of it...

Hope they get I sorted quickly and back out sailing again soon.

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Chris O is going to love this.

 

But whatever, shit happens. I'm glad they saved the rig. Looks like the sails need some attention and then back to it.

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Chris O does not love this.

 

Getting flipped is not a part of the sidebar discussion as to racer or cruiser. From what I read, there isn't a real explanation as to how it happened, as of yet, so I'm in a wait and see mode like everybody and just pleased that nobody was hurt.

 

It's one thing to kick around the smack on semantic topics and another, entirely, when a boat goes over.

 

.

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Billy,

 

Ben was out in 18-20 TWS perhaps even up to 22 kn at times. Full on foiling conditions. The boat won't foil in 10 TWS, believe me. Will be great if we can find out what happened - over the side heeling, pitchpole, or a combination.

 

Some have suggested reverse pitchpole, but I am not going there.

 

 

Possible pitchpole? that would explain that the rigging didn`t fail

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Report was simply "dumb capsize on our part"

Jeff J

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"mans gotta know his limitations" And now, they do. Thats a positive! The others are nothing appears to have broken! Everyone survived with 1 minor injury, the boat was righted simply and quickly, intact! That shows its design strength. Its performance has been nothing short of phenomenonal against some of the worlds top Monos and multis. Race report from Larso was a superb analysis of their own and others efforts. Thanks Paul. Cheers all. PS now we can all await the relaunch of the full foiling Mod 70 Gitana! A RACE boat.

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Chris O states " I design boats like this myself " in thread on Gunboat G4:

 

 

You design boats like what Chris O? Like Gunboat G4? Pictures of the boats like G4 you have designed or you are full of shit. O wait...you ARE full of shit.

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Billy,

 

Ben was out in 18-20 TWS perhaps even up to 22 kn at times. Full on foiling conditions. The boat won't foil in 10 TWS, believe me. Will be great if we can find out what happened - over the side heeling, pitchpole, or a combination.

 

Some have suggested reverse pitchpole, but I am not going there.

 

 

Possible pitchpole? that would explain that the rigging didn`t fail

 

Please explain. I don't buy that. Side capsize is damped. Pitch pole can be violent.

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...helicopter blew it over? :ph34r:

post-63466-0-73342000-1429424769_thumb.jpg

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Trophies slid to one side of the coffee table... Hate it when that happens

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Could have dropped of the foils, stuck both bows in, parked it and then went over sideways. We have all been there.... Well, excluding the foiling part :D

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I was wrong about not foiling due to wind speed. Jesus R's Facebook has them foiling under the masthead code without difficulty.

 

pieterjan states it was a lack of ease in main as dump is too slow. Seems like virbac all over again.

 

The picture seems to show it went over side not bows. Could have been while foiling and there is a geometric reduction in RM with heel for sure.

 

It also was not an auto tack nor capsize to windward. T Alive, off foil and stuff bows would happen most likely with broken rake control on some foil. You can't just erase the lift too many other ways. If you did I would not expect her to stop but go full pitch pole. Not this case.

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pieterjan states it was a lack of ease in main as dump is too slow. Seems like virbac all over again.

 

And countless X40s. Something needs to be done about hydraulic mainsheets

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Hard to believe so much money, time, energy and experience goes into a boat but the main sheet won't ease quickly enough??

 

I was wrong about not foiling due to wind speed. Jesus R's Facebook has them foiling under the masthead code without difficulty.

 

pieterjan states it was a lack of ease in main as dump is too slow. Seems like virbac all over again.

 

The picture seems to show it went over side not bows. Could have been while foiling and there is a geometric reduction in RM with heel for sure.

 

It also was not an auto tack nor capsize to windward. T Alive, off foil and stuff bows would happen most likely with broken rake control on some foil. You can't just erase the lift too many other ways. If you did I would not expect her to stop but go full pitch pole. Not this case.

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Jim Clark, Ken Read & co. look like they made the right choice Clean :-)

 

&

 

Will GB's be automatically DSQ from Syd-Hob when multis are allowed to enter? You know, sometime after 2030.

 

Gotta give it back everynow & then. EH EH EH ...

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Fantastic boat. I would love to experience the exhileration.

But calling it a cruising boat is beyond my imagination. I simply would not dare taking anybody aboard less than professional sailors let alone some kids and friends.

Is it me thinking that the boat is frequently more bow down than ı would be comfortable with? Gives me the impression that it is about to be pitchpoled any moment. Somehow wish the foils to be a foot or so more forward than where they are.

I agree.

As cool as this thing is, my feeling is that it won't be too long before the is a FP article about how the new G4 is upside down.

We started reporting on the faster, lighter, more powerful GC32 around 35 months ago. How many of those are upside down?

I hate to say I towed a so Clean, but, I fuckin I towed a so(trailer park boys fans will get it).

Honestly, I didn't think it would happen this soon, I figured they would get half a season or so out of it...

Hope they get I sorted quickly and back out sailing again soon.

 

 

We've been talking about it amongst the SA crew here in Charleston all week, especially knowing that Mischa is down there to push her through her paces. John Casey, Mischa's longtime nemesis in the F-18 fleet, said it certainly won't be the last time, especially when pro beach cat sailors are given their heads and told to push. If the recovery was as simple as I am told, and if there is insignificant damage as I am told, it might even inspire a little confidence to push hard when racing in deep water with tender support. If you don't have to worry about destroying that beefy Hall rig or your main$$$$ail when washing it...

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Jim Clark, Ken Read & co. look like they made the right choice Clean :-)

 

 

 

Fair play, though you might remember that Rambler 100 was far closer to killing a big pile of people than any gunboat ever was.

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G4 going sailing today I am told. More info coming soon.

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Jim Clark, Ken Read & co. look like they made the right choice Clean :-)

 

 

Fair play, though you might remember that Rambler 100 was far closer to killing a big pile of people than any gunboat ever was.

So far .... & what's the mono / multi death per nm sailed ratio?

 

Yes I've got my hand on it ;-)

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not a clue, and only relevant to this discussion if we're talking about racing. Definitely curious as to what the ratio is for racing though. Cruising? Meh.

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Isn't this the worlds first cruising foiling multi

Clean?

 

http://www.gunboat.com/series/gunboat-g4/

 

Huh?

 

 

It's a Yachting World quote that Gunboat put up on their Facebook site. "Gunboat has produced the world's first foiling cruising yacht"

 

Also direct Gunboat quotes:

 

 

"A NEW MULTIPURPOSE COASTAL CRUISER-RACER"

"easy to handle and forgiving weekender"

"The GUNBOAT G4 is simple and easy to sail."

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Billy,

 

Ben was out in 18-20 TWS perhaps even up to 22 kn at times. Full on foiling conditions. The boat won't foil in 10 TWS, believe me. Will be great if we can find out what happened - over the side heeling, pitchpole, or a combination.

 

Some have suggested reverse pitchpole, but I am not going there.

 

 

Possible pitchpole? that would explain that the rigging didn`t fail

 

Please explain. I don't buy that. Side capsize is damped. Pitch pole can be violent.

 

 

 

I do not know, that's why I was asking you. A side capsize and turn over with sails sheeted, wouldn`t have broken the mast?

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Hard to believe so much money, time, energy and experience goes into a boat but the main sheet won't ease quickly enough??

Agree completely. Inexplicable that this problem, so well known for DECADES, hasn't been solved. Every time a racing multihull flips, it's another black eye for all sensible, safe and comfortable cruising multihulls.

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^^ Which is fine with me. If more people had multi's, I'd never be able to find an end tie!

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How it flipped:

 

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Holy shit that turtled fast.

 

That fall onto the mast didn't look like fun either.

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I wonder about ergonomics - exactly HOW does one ease the main, and how hard is to reach the control as the boat goes vertical?

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Based on the previous pictures and videos I think the mainsheet release is the center pedal at the helmsman's feet, but I'm just guessing.

 

From the wipe-out video the gennaker gets completely smoked and the traveler is dumped pretty hard. It basically looks like the driver didn't bear away with the puff or possible even drove up a little bit and that's what did them in.

 

I'm glad everybody's fine. Although the drop onto the mast looked painful. I too was surprised by how quickly the boat turtled. Maybe it would help to seal the mast.

 

Since everybody was ok, I will admit to a little bit of schadenfreude when I see a boat full of top pros make what appears to be a stupid mistake. It makes me feel ever so slightly better about my own mistakes on the water.

 

In any event, I still think it's an awesome boat and I'm not too worried about anybody buying one not understanding what they're stepping into.

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Billy,

 

Ben was out in 18-20 TWS perhaps even up to 22 kn at times. Full on foiling conditions. The boat won't foil in 10 TWS, believe me. Will be great if we can find out what happened - over the side heeling, pitchpole, or a combination.

 

Some have suggested reverse pitchpole, but I am not going there.

 

 

Possible pitchpole? that would explain that the rigging didn`t fail

 

Please explain. I don't buy that. Side capsize is damped. Pitch pole can be violent.

 

 

 

I do not know, that's why I was asking you. A side capsize and turn over with sails sheeted, wouldn`t have broken the mast?

 

 

Apart from the obviously evidence, no! A pitchpole is harder but should not either in truth, though the deceleration as the masthead snaps into the water is not really a nice precise calculation. Far worse for the mast would be pounding the masthead on the bottom.

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. It basically looks like the driver didn't bear away with the puff or possible even drove up a little bit and that's what did them in.

 

 

That seems to be the case, looking at the rudder angle

post-50012-0-36021700-1429458547_thumb.jpg

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. It basically looks like the driver didn't bear away with the puff or possible even drove up a little bit and that's what did them in.

 

That seems to be the case, looking at the rudder angle

To me it looks like a combination of that, and dropping off the foils in a big hurry when they blew the Code zero. Quick speed loss would make for a pretty irritating change in apparent wind, especially when you're already near the point of no return.

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It seems to me that this boat can be configured in race mode or cruise mode. In cruise mode, the rig can be reefed but, more importantly, the foils can both be partially lowered and set to zero angle of incidence which would be a "set it and forget it" cruise mode(at least in deep water) with the foils adding to ride comfort. The boat wouldn't foil but it would probably sail pretty quickly.

Glad nobody was seriously hurt......

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How it flipped:

 

 

I give Gunboat that - they are not running and hiding!

 

 

 

....."what doesnt kill you just make you stronger"!

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When i said it was waiting to happen, only a few days ago i honestly didnt expect it to be so soon.

I was kind of thinking a rough sea state with a lot less experienced crew aboard.

For me, thats the end of the definiton of 'new age cruising' many of you advocated.

All the respect to anybody who pushes the boundaries to create a boat like this. They are certainly smart. But the sea is smarter.

When i first watched the intro video i got a sense of uneasiness. N.A. may argue to the contrary but when it comes to sea, if something doesnt look right it probably isnt.

Tribute to Joshua Slocum and 'Spray'. He was not fast but he got there..

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When i said it was waiting to happen, only a few days ago i honestly didnt expect it to be so soon.

I was kind of thinking a rough sea state with a lot less experienced crew aboard.

For me, thats the end of the definiton of 'new age cruising' many of you advocated.

All the respect to anybody who pushes the boundaries to create a boat like this. They are certainly smart. But the sea is smarter.

When i first watched the intro video i got a sense of uneasiness. N.A. may argue to the contrary but when it comes to sea, if something doesnt look right it probably isnt.

Tribute to Joshua Slocum and 'Spray'. He was not fast but he got there..

Funny you say that - all kudos to Slocum. But most folks concur that Spray was a POS.

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I've watched the video a few times, and at .45 it looks like to me the crew sitting behind the helmsman on the windward stern stepped on the tiller tie bar pushing it to leeward causing the helmsman to not be able to drive off. Does anybody else see this?

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We've been talking about it amongst the SA crew here in Charleston all week, especially knowing that Mischa is down there to push her through her paces. John Casey, Mischa's longtime nemesis in the F-18 fleet, said it certainly won't be the last time, especially when pro beach cat sailors are given their heads and told to push. If the recovery was as simple as I am told, and if there is insignificant damage as I am told, it might even inspire a little confidence to push hard when racing in deep water with tender support. If you don't have to worry about destroying that beefy Hall rig or your main$$$$ail when washing it...

 

 

 

 

On a regular beach cat, the boat steers fast, the sails can be dumped fast and they still they go over plenty.

 

On the new foilers that are intended to be super beach cats, the capsize rate is probably less. The fast response actions available combined with foils that are effective at keeping the bow from diving have really helped.

 

On a boat this scale and weight, the speed of roll in response to a gust is a lot less, but the crew was obviously challenged in their ability to respond as needed. The main traveler should have been let out sooner before even coming close (say when the boat first lifted the windward rudder out). Then there was the lack of main sheet release when "awe s**t" was the thought in everyone's head.

 

Driving a boat like this "beach cat hard" is probably "just a choice" with known risks. It is good that the boat seems to be able to take it.

 

The crew on any large racing multi should probably be trained and conduct drills to hammer in the safest things to do if it going over (like don't climb over the high side, just grab something with both hands and hang on). From C cat to AC 45 to all of the other big multies, the videos of people crashing hard into carbon masts is a lot of "shots on goal" for a serious event.

 

And of course, there really does seem to be a need to fully dump sheets to deal with changes in apparent wind direction. I am not sure what is the right choice for the helm. The G4 looks to have steered up. With the heel at the time the centrifugal force of the turn worked against them even though it seem to take a little pressure off of the main. The boat slowed some more and then the apparent wind direction change took over and it was over she goes.

 

But on the other hand, the video before the rollover showed a "cruiser" smoking pretty fast in some not so smooth water. Check out bow plowing through the waves.

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Definetly need a release system for the sails, why did they not bear off, rudder problems..

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So glad no one was stunned under the tramp or badly injured by the fall. Was anyone inside during the event? That would've been an interesting washing machine kind of ride.

 

There is no way this is a wife and kids foiling cruiser. But you can take them (with boards detuned, boat depowered) to the race site with crew aboard and wine&cheese with them on the boat. Your crew can sleep aboard and have stuff ready to race when you return, and all you are out is a hotel room for the family, and maybe another for the crew's showers and such. The crew's kit goes in a dock box or the hotel room while you race.

 

The Bahamas? Get a couple of pros to help and you could legitimately consider foiling there (without young kids) from West Palm or Miami (without little kids of course). You could think up all kinds of ways to make this work. But how GB responds to these learning curve moments will have a huge impact on future owner's decisions. The "Wipeout" vid is an excellent start.

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Jim Clark, Ken Read & co. look like they made the right choice Clean :-)

 

&

 

Will GB's be automatically DSQ from Syd-Hob when multis are allowed to enter? You know, sometime after 2030.

 

Gotta give it back everynow & then. EH EH EH ...

That makes sense only if Comanche was conceived as a family friendly racer-cruiser. Which, given the scale of economic inequality today, would indeed seem to make sense.

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[OTT Ex post facto quarterbacking?]No bear away?[/oepfq]

 

Paul Larson got it right when he says the St Barts course makes it hard for the G4's foiling.

 

All the foiling classes (AC, A and c class cats, Moths) race windward/leewards.

 

Those foiling class championships where the mark is DDW, a foiler stays on its feet by finding whatever gybe angle it needs. The helmsman steers through a wide range of downwind angles.

 

In these island hopping regattas I imagine they are trying to foil a compass course (reaching) and the need to bear away has to be tempered with need to make the mark.

 

It would be like trying to sail an 18 at 100 degrees true wind angle in a fresh breeze.

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After watching the wipeout vid a few times it looks to me that the bridgedeck under wing windage might have helped her go over, she lifted pretty friggen high before the leeward hull landed exposing plenty of under wing before rolling over. I know of several multis even going over backwards due to underwing and net windage.

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I've watched the video a few times, and at .45 it looks like to me the crew sitting behind the helmsman on the windward stern stepped on the tiller tie bar pushing it to leeward causing the helmsman to not be able to drive off. Does anybody else see this?

I can't see what you are referring too.

 

I do see the helm going both ways with the tiller and nothing happening... "I got no steering fellas"

 

It may look different on the computer though...

 

Looks like one of the crew was bailing out over the high side to get onto the centreboard... slipped on the shiny topsides, caught the shrouds, missed the foil, landed on the mast then ended up in the headsail.

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I've watched the video a few times, and at .45 it looks like to me the crew sitting behind the helmsman on the windward stern stepped on the tiller tie bar pushing it to leeward causing the helmsman to not be able to drive off. Does anybody else see this?

I can't see what you are referring too.

 

I do see the helm going both ways with the tiller and nothing happening... "I got no steering fellas"

 

It may look different on the computer though...

 

Looks like one of the crew was bailing out over the high side to get onto the centreboard... slipped on the shiny topsides, caught the shrouds, missed the foil, landed on the mast then ended up in the headsail.

 

I think it's the traveller he steps on. The tiller bar is slightly forward of that.

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I think she went over because they did not dump the main. I bet main sheet is hydraulic. Dumping traveller alone will not save a powered up multi.

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That ain't gonna help sales...

 

Yes the question of dumping the main has to be asked ... This was clearly recoverable at the mid point.

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Typical foiling crash.

 

It climbs a wave crest and gets very bow high. If nothing is done the foil will break out of the water in the next trough, so the helm is put down slightly to track more across the wave ridge and flatten approach to the trough, standard foil practice in moths. Usually needs windward heal and lots of sheet eased.

 

But with sloping TNZ type foils, and leeward heal, this induces more bow up and the when it gets too high the typical big side slip and splash down. All this slows the boat hugely and the apparent wind moves aft from maybe 50deg to 90deg. The big ease of the headsail has minimal effect, its still full of wind as the boat reaches point of no return. Add on the momentum effect of the mass of the whole boat well above the CLR with turn to port and the roll to std it induces.

 

I have no idea what they should have done as I have no experience with this type of foils, but I have been in this position many times in 10 years of moth foiling, saved it most of the time, but lots of crashes. Difference is we just get it up and keep going.

 

I did observe that the AC72s stopped using the big headsail once foiling was possible.

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Anyone surprised in this thread? Yea, didnt think so.

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I helped a couple of guys in a partnership in a tri to convert from a mast aft position as designed to a mast forward config that would permit a large fully battened main and a less that fully overlapped jib and we put in a very trick traveller and a hydraulic ram in the boom to deal with the main leech loads. On these boats, the traveller becomes 'angle of attack' and the mainsheet becomes 'leech tension' and puts it into a new role when thinking of what to dump first in a impending capsize. It turned out that the hydraulic beast we had buried in the boom was very slow in responding to the 'Oh Shit" moments

 

The hydraulic main sheet proved to be too slow to dump in an impending stuff or flyover (heading up instead of heading down) and the compression loads of the mast that much further aft eventually split the boat athwartship!

 

 

I think the original rig was eventually put back on the boat and she is now a [art of the Golden Oldies fleet.

 

A very field proven lesson.

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You blokes saying they should have beared (borne?) away, BS, the G4 was close reaching, main centred, apparent wind way forward. Beariing off as the boat slowed (actually it didn't slow at the crucial point of no return) because as they drove through the swell the foil lifted the lee hull bow up - and G4 went into a common old broach. There were maybe 2 seconds for the main to be dumped (reacher/screecher went first) for the boat to remain on its feet. Bearing off - did I say BS?

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Here's a question for those that know...or think they know... how effective do you think this would be in an OHSHIT moment.

 

On a multi with a canting rig having the ability to "dump" the side stay... ie let the mast fall to leeward by releasing the tension on the windward side via a quick release (not easing thru the tackle which is too slow). Note this is not releasing the stays completely rather just allowing the rig to fall over to its max opposite cant.

 

There would need to be some shock loading absorption at the end of travel so as not to kill the rig but the way I see it it does two very important things fast.

1. depower the masthead

2. throw some momentum in the right direction

 

Its great that we have this video to study/discuss and even better that no one was seriously hurt as that drop to the mast looked nasty.

 

I seriously doubt that event will dampen sales as its just part of the territory when doing the wild thing in any multi race boat or cruiser (hey you can flip a Jarcat if you try hard enough). Those that are surprised by such an events possibility have no place sailing a powered up beast like this G4

 

The way I look at it past a certain point of heel the rudder is useless, depowering the sails is effective only if the exposed windage of the hull hasn't become the dominant factor and the only thing left is the ability to throw something to leeward like the mast.

 

For the record I sail a TrailerTri so hardly a powered up race boat so this is a question not a statement

 

Cheers

 

Mark

 

PS still think this G4 or is that G$ (with the caps stuck) is pretty cool and impressive production design no matter what tag one want to stick to it. ...a rose by any other name would smell as sweet....

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Does anyone else have a thought that this capsize was a staged event?

 

Have you taken a look at all the gobs of posts here and a couple of dozen other boating outlets, as well as Facebook?

 

The event is being innoculated as "just one of those things that happen all the time" to race boats on the edge, even if the conditions were functionally benign. Just happened to have a proper righting tool on hand, a helo with ready shooters who had full daylight.... and the footage is virtually, instantaneously cleared for viewing so that endless speculation and excuse making can begin from a primed and adoring gang of mouth gapers.

 

Either you've been had, or Mischa is a shittier driver than he appears. I think it is the former.

 

.

You could be onto something there- if you look closely at the helicopter you can see doctor evil smiling out of the window, just after he used the heli's downdraught to blow G4 over.

There are also contrails faintly seen in the sky in the capsize pics; I think PJ got DARPA to help with some localized gust creation too..

 

Are you seriously trying to say this was purely staged for marketing benefit???

I for one am glad your dreams of being a yacht designer never bore fruit if thats how your marketing brain works...

 

In the real world of yacht design, on water testing means pushing a boat to its limits; a professional design crew wouldnt do that if they didnt have the back up resources needed if things go pear shaped.

 

I would go out on a limb and say they were prepared very well (just as well as they achieved their original design brief) , and have maintained integrity [this time] by what they have promptly disclosed.

 

Im dissapointed PJ didnt get your experienced helming hands intead of Mischa's ChrisO, I'm sure it was just that PJ couldnt afford you so had to settle for Mischa instead ;)

 

post-63466-0-62070100-1429518415_thumb.jpg

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Ever hear of a guy named Evil Knieval?

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I know its 4.20 day, and where I am it was just 4.20

But seriously Chris O, what are you smoking cause it's putting the world's supply to shame

 

Seriously cause the only explanation other than that is that the Cuckoo's Nest just got internet?

 

Clearly the boats doing alright if the blokes can do that and be almost laughing afterwards!

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If its simply a matter of not being able to dump hydraulic assisted sheets then that's simple to fix. Farm tractors use post rammers which operate by hydraulic fluid pushing a cylinder ram and weight upwards via a normal sized spool . Once the ram reaches the top of stroke a dump valve, ie large valve and large return line, is activated and the ram and weight free fall pushing the post into the ground. The pressure on a main sheet could easily retract a ram if the oil can escape fast enough. There would be no need to modify the existing hydraulic system apart from a dump valve and large return line which would be plumbed into but operate separately from the existing system. You still need the fine control of the existing system.

When I look at the video the main doesn't appear to swing free and wide enough to dump the wind.

Cheers

Bottman

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[OTT Ex post facto quarterbacking?]No bear away?[/oepfq]

 

Paul Larson got it right when he says the St Barts course makes it hard for the G4's foiling.

 

All the foiling classes (AC, A and c class cats, Moths) race windward/leewards.

 

Those foiling class championships where the mark is DDW, a foiler stays on its feet by finding whatever gybe angle it needs. The helmsman steers through a wide range of downwind angles.

 

In these island hopping regattas I imagine they are trying to foil a compass course (reaching) and the need to bear away has to be tempered with need to make the mark.

 

It would be like trying to sail an 18 at 100 degrees true wind angle in a fresh breeze.

 

I agree trickypig. Looks to me like they were squeezing for height, not sailing for max' speed of max downwind VMG. I've been there myself on Two Tribes and it's not a happy situation. The essential factor need is a quick and easy method of dumping lots of main, which should have been done at 00:44 and all would have been fine. They would not have even lost much speed.

 

A 2:1 mainsheet with 2 turns around a winch and the tail uncleated in the helms other hand is the requirement for this sort of sailing. Anything more than 2:1 is too slow to dump.

 

This situation should never have arisen. Much better to go where the spin takes you then drop it and 2-sail back up to the mark. Don't squeeze for height with the spin up in any decent breeze - asking for trouble.

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I still wont one.

I'll never have one though ...

... so it doesn't matter.

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I guess I don't really understand the appeal of this boat. ok so you want a foiling cat, but you have to sail it with 3-4 pros on board to get it to fly? Why not save an assload of money and get a GC32? ok so you want to fast-cruise for a weekend with the wife and kids? Why do you need a cat that could foil? Why not build a smaller version of the 55, make it super simple so it's easy to sail with the family, but can still go fast?

 

Not that I'll ever be able to afford any of these boats, but I don't understand all the logic behind the G4. Maybe it will make a couple of owners really happy, but I don't think they'll sell a ton, especially after this capsize. Sure it's gonna happen with a new boat and they were pushing the limits and that's fine and all, but I don't think it's gonna help people sell the boat to their reluctant spouses...

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Ever hear of a guy named Evil Knieval?

What - he broke those bones on purpose?

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I know its 4.20 day, and where I am it was just 4.20

 

But seriously Chris O, what are you smoking cause it's putting the world's supply to shame

 

Seriously cause the only explanation other than that is that the Cuckoo's Nest just got internet?

 

Clearly the boats doing alright if the blokes can do that and be almost laughing afterwards!

...I fear for the espresso maker.

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I think this is a great idea. Not a new idea but well worth re-examining using state-of-the-art technology. Doesn't have to be heavy, just reliable. Well within GB's technical capabilities.

Here's a question for those that know...or think they know... how effective do you think this would be in an OHSHIT moment.

On a multi with a canting rig having the ability to "dump" the side stay... ie let the mast fall to leeward by releasing the tension on the windward side via a quick release (not easing thru the tackle which is too slow). Note this is not releasing the stays completely rather just allowing the rig to fall over to its max opposite cant.

There would need to be some shock loading absorption at the end of travel so as not to kill the rig but the way I see it it does two very important things fast.
1. depower the masthead
2. throw some momentum in the right direction

Its great that we have this video to study/discuss and even better that no one was seriously hurt as that drop to the mast looked nasty.

I seriously doubt that event will dampen sales as its just part of the territory when doing the wild thing in any multi race boat or cruiser (hey you can flip a Jarcat if you try hard enough). Those that are surprised by such an events possibility have no place sailing a powered up beast like this G4

The way I look at it past a certain point of heel the rudder is useless, depowering the sails is effective only if the exposed windage of the hull hasn't become the dominant factor and the only thing left is the ability to throw something to leeward like the mast.

For the record I sail a TrailerTri so hardly a powered up race boat so this is a question not a statement

Cheers

Mark

PS still think this G4 or is that G$ (with the caps stuck) is pretty cool and impressive production design no matter what tag one want to stick to it. ...a rose by any other name would smell as sweet....

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Used as a righting system on RC cats 25 years ago and I think it's been used fullsize as well.

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I know its 4.20 day, and where I am it was just 4.20

 

But seriously Chris O, what are you smoking cause it's putting the world's supply to shame

 

Seriously cause the only explanation other than that is that the Cuckoo's Nest just got internet?

 

Clearly the boats doing alright if the blokes can do that and be almost laughing afterwards!

...I fear for the espresso maker.

 

 

I hope the head was still virgin.

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I'm thinking chopper kill.

Helicopter passes to leeward, crosses bow and circles aft.

Thing get out of control as G4 encounters the wake the chopper left in front.

In the video, there is a cut away to G4 passing a bunch of monos, and then back to the capsize from astern.

I am assuming this was editing and not the actual sequence of events.

The turbulence put into the wind by helicopters does not disate very fast, and it is remarkable how many great shots of high performance boat are taken from. Helicopters.

Unless this was drone footage, then nevermind.

 

I wonder if there were provision for turtle get in the mechanical design. In big tri's the diesels don't necessarily get wet until you right the boat. If there is time, you can salvage a lot before you revert. Suitable baffles might make it that thes boats could go down and back without f flooding everything. Which would seem pretty clever to me.

 

I'm a bit surprised at how quickly she turtles, and wonder if this could or should be addressed. There is something to be said for both postures.

Best wishes!

SHC

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I think this is a great idea. Not a new idea but well worth re-examining using state-of-the-art technology. Doesn't have to be heavy, just reliable. Well within GB's technical capabilities.

 

Here's a question for those that know...or think they know... how effective do you think this would be in an OHSHIT moment.

 

On a multi with a canting rig having the ability to "dump" the side stay... ie let the mast fall to leeward by releasing the tension on the windward side via a quick release (not easing thru the tackle which is too slow). Note this is not releasing the stays completely rather just allowing the rig to fall over to its max opposite cant.

 

There would need to be some shock loading absorption at the end of travel so as not to kill the rig but the way I see it it does two very important things fast.

1. depower the masthead

2. throw some momentum in the right direction

 

Its great that we have this video to study/discuss and even better that no one was seriously hurt as that drop to the mast looked nasty.

 

I seriously doubt that event will dampen sales as its just part of the territory when doing the wild thing in any multi race boat or cruiser (hey you can flip a Jarcat if you try hard enough). Those that are surprised by such an events possibility have no place sailing a powered up beast like this G4

 

The way I look at it past a certain point of heel the rudder is useless, depowering the sails is effective only if the exposed windage of the hull hasn't become the dominant factor and the only thing left is the ability to throw something to leeward like the mast.

 

For the record I sail a TrailerTri so hardly a powered up race boat so this is a question not a statement

 

Cheers

 

Mark

 

PS still think this G4 or is that G$ (with the caps stuck) is pretty cool and impressive production design no matter what tag one want to stick to it. ...a rose by any other name would smell as sweet....

Isn't that what they do on the big tris?

I think they crank their rigs to windward, and can dump it to leeward quickly.

Could be wrong though.

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I'm thinking chopper kill.

Helicopter passes to leeward, crosses bow and circles aft.

Thing get out of control as G4 encounters the wake the chopper left in front.

In the video, there is a cut away to G4 passing a bunch of monos, and then back to the capsize from astern.

I am assuming this was editing and not the actual sequence of events.

The turbulence put into the wind by helicopters does not disate very fast, and it is remarkable how many great shots of high performance boat are taken from. Helicopters.

Unless this was drone footage, then nevermind.

 

I wonder if there were provision for turtle get in the mechanical design. In big tri's the diesels don't necessarily get wet until you right the boat. If there is time, you can salvage a lot before you revert. Suitable baffles might make it that thes boats could go down and back without f flooding everything. Which would seem pretty clever to me.

 

I'm a bit surprised at how quickly she turtles, and wonder if this could or should be addressed. There is something to be said for both postures.

Best wishes!

SHC

 

 

Down wash? really?

 

I have huge respect SHC but given AWS and AWA i don't buy it.

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Really enjoying all this fantastic coverage of the G4. Can't wait for them to enter the rental fleet so I can enjoy cruising with my family.

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I'm thinking it's fortunate that this happened during St Barth's so that design changes can be implemented before any more go into production.

 

Good job, Gunboat. Keep pushing it.

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The argument can be made that any future 'foiling cruisers' for the masses may actually be monos, if the new IMOCA 60s are to go by.

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The argument can be made that any future 'foiling cruisers' for the masses may actually be monos, if the new IMOCA 60s are to go by.

 

They are still "foil assist"-you can tell they are not full flying foiler designs since they have no rudder t-foils. A couple are using the same "leeway coupling" foil design as used on UptiP foils. But you're right-it won't be long now!

post-30-0-85207300-1429568718_thumb.jpg

post-30-0-04989900-1429568741_thumb.jpg

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I'm thinking chopper kill.

Helicopter passes to leeward, crosses bow and circles aft.

Thing get out of control as G4 encounters the wake the chopper left in front.

In the video, there is a cut away to G4 passing a bunch of monos, and then back to the capsize from astern.

I am assuming this was editing and not the actual sequence of events.

The turbulence put into the wind by helicopters does not disate very fast, and it is remarkable how many great shots of high performance boat are taken from. Helicopters.

Unless this was drone footage, then nevermind.

 

I wonder if there were provision for turtle get in the mechanical design. In big tri's the diesels don't necessarily get wet until you right the boat. If there is time, you can salvage a lot before you revert. Suitable baffles might make it that thes boats could go down and back without f flooding everything. Which would seem pretty clever to me.

 

I'm a bit surprised at how quickly she turtles, and wonder if this could or should be addressed. There is something to be said for both postures.

Best wishes!

SHC

My understanding is that the chopper was there for a photo shoot.

 

So - would this be a case of bad publicity?

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I'm thinking chopper kill.

Helicopter passes to leeward, crosses bow and circles aft.

Thing get out of control as G4 encounters the wake the chopper left in front.

In the video, there is a cut away to G4 passing a bunch of monos, and then back to the capsize from astern.

I am assuming this was editing and not the actual sequence of events.

The turbulence put into the wind by helicopters does not disate very fast, and it is remarkable how many great shots of high performance boat are taken from. Helicopters.

Unless this was drone footage, then nevermind.

 

I wonder if there were provision for turtle get in the mechanical design. In big tri's the diesels don't necessarily get wet until you right the boat. If there is time, you can salvage a lot before you revert. Suitable baffles might make it that thes boats could go down and back without f flooding everything. Which would seem pretty clever to me.

 

I'm a bit surprised at how quickly she turtles, and wonder if this could or should be addressed. There is something to be said for both postures.

Best wishes!

SHC

My understanding is that the chopper was there for a photo shoot.

 

So - would this be a case of bad publicity?

 

I think not. Gunboat is the word on everyone's lips now.

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Used as a righting system on RC cats 25 years ago and I think it's been used fullsize as well.

Super Cats come with shroud extenders to help with righting after a capsize. Pull pin, shroud lengthens, sloppy mast allows hulls to rotate CG to less than 90°. When upright, tension on trap wires allow pin to be replaced in shortened shroud position. Smile and sail away. . .

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In an earlier sequence the chopper crosses to windward of G4; then just when I think the downdraft is going to flatten the cat, lens zooms back. BUT having experienced ignorant film crews on choppers calling to get closer to windward (this on 57 foot Barker designed catamaran Sundreamer - which almost took our rig out) then I thought a similar thing may have occurred with G4, sailing into the downwash. But don't think so, they just became overpowered and rounded up.

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Boat is doing better than wind speed. So they actually overtake the turbulence which is traveling down wind at wind speed.

It is probably the down wash from the cross in front that creates the havoc.

SHC

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Boat is doing better than wind speed. So they actually overtake the turbulence which is traveling down wind at wind speed.

It is probably the down wash from the cross in front that creates the havoc.

SHC

So they are sailing well ahead and pulling away from the turbulence which is traveling down at wind speed. In the C (or G4) you down look behind you when sailing downwind for puff, because it won't get to you.

 

Which cross in front? Nowhere near the "wipeout", which looks pretty much like others have said, a classic cat broach due to helm (or lack there of) and insufficient ease of sheets to outrun the AWA shift with deceleration.

 

As for turning turtle, I don't know how it is intended to stop it. The entire crew on the dagger (impossible) is not going to stop it as you have so much beam that the CG is well on the wrong side of the CB. Impossible because hanging on to daggers is hard to do. (With this exchange, I am reminded of your own drop.) The air volume could do it. But on the masthead it would need to be at least 350-400 liters to keep here there in the capsized position.

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Capsizes are to be expected, the G4 is a very fast boat, so margin for errors are small (not like a monohull...). Seems like they has to change the control-system for the main and they are aware of that.

 

And I saw the G4 at the yard in Lelystad, fantastic boat, very well build and well thought, so its even more fantastic to see it sailing and especially flying. Good work.

 

have fun

 

Lars

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There's too much speculation going on here as per usual.

What I want to have shut down is this notion that boats with canting rigs, dump their windward rig tension and allow the rig to rapidly fall to leeward to save such a capsize. This is never employed as an operating procedure. The shock loading on mast, rigging and platform would be terminal for at least one these elements. More importantly the physics offered as a reason as to why you would do this are so flawed. Yes, the boat (platform) would be relieved of heeling (read capsize) moment from the rig, for the microseconds from being released from its canted to weather position to the exact moment that the windward shroud reached its point of maximum extension. At that point, the reintroduction of all that accelerated mass (if one can actually engineer a lightweight multi to survive this shock load), will now be working to capsize the boat even harder than when it was beforehand - and yet now the rig would be working directly against keeping the boat upright. Imagine if you will, a double trapeze beach cat reaching at speed with say 20-25 degress of heel; now get your crew to hurl himself to leeward while keeping the trapeze line attached (he may want to disconnect the bungy cord - but this is optional...) All fun while he sails to leeward - not so hot when he takes up his fight on the other side.....

The dump valves that are referred to when mentioning boats with canting rigs, only operated mainsheet and traveller functions, not Shroud.

Another thread that has emerged is how fast the whole platform turtled.
I believe some inexperience in the forum readers is what surfaces here.
Firstly, consider you are a crew who falls roughly where the galley is ( you were probably mixing cocktail's rather than trimming the mainsheet........ but we come back to your future employment prospects another time) the rate of inversion would allow you to swim away from the structure before becoming enveloped.
If there was a sealed mast and a float bag at the mast tip, how long could the crew stay hanging on to their lifelines, dangling 15-20ft in the air before dropping?

It becomes a question of priorities or variables.
What sort of crew are you sailing with? Fit agile monkeys, fat couch potatoes, old, young, etc
How deep is the water? Can you turtle the platform with absolutely no chance of hitting the bricks? They got Timbalero back with the apparent loss of the code zero cut from the forestay and some pride - a result in anyone's book - try doing that off the beach in Texel.

What I want people to consider is that a fully turtled multi is a safe environment that the crew can readily swim to and climb back on top of, await rescue, cut away a damaged rig, carry out first aid etc, etc. The whole boat becomes a docile liferaft. That’s why these boats have had escape hatches for so long now.

A tri or cat held at capsize by a mast head float on the surface, may be recoverable more quickly, but only if suitable resources are at hand (unlikely). Even before such undertakings can be considered, a platform in these positions have a high rate of drift, often in excess of what crew members separated in the crash can swim to. Rig survival is more probable, but not guaranteed.
A capsize recovery system was developed by Harvey Bowden for his Firebird 26 – but you are talking about a quantum of difference in the loadings between a Firebird 26 and a G4 as it re- rights. And all that extra gear doesn’t help with keeping weight down......

With respect to the possible assistance of Helo downwash I think you have to consider that modern zoom lens make everything look closer, much closer than it really is....

I suspect that we may see third party video shots or even accounts of the range of the helicopter being much further away from the scene than is currently expected.

It is more likely that the Helo is just an unwanted distraction for the crew at the critical moment that the gust arrives, The spotter doesn't give enough warning and mainsheet trimmer misses his moment.

The Headsail ease was well intentioned but ultimately led to changing the rig balance, sending CoE aft, driving the boat more to windward, at the exact moment that the opposite was required......

Increased Heel leads to less direct steering input, as heel increases, the turning moment decreases, but the braking moment increases (the rudder becomes more of a handbrake than a turning device).......

The Traveller was eased, but it is nearly a geometrically correct arc shape - so will maintain leech tension as it is dumped - the exact opposite of what is required.......

So you have a large gust, rapidly increasing angles of heel, a dumped headsail, which has so much overlap that even fully blown will hold some of the true wind in its flog, a CoE in the rig that moves aft, driving the boat to weather (even if this effect is small - it is another factor working against rather than with you)
The rapidly diminishing effect of the rudder as the heel increases, only serves to slow the boat, just when you really want it to accelerate away from all the mayhem. The main is to intents and purposes still fully trimmed. It all gets critical when the CoE of the rig (and more importantly the Rig's mass and centripetal force start to operate, outside of the pivot point that the RM is being generated from.

As soon as the rig's effort effort is outside the point of RM, any Luff on the helm whether from helmsman or changing rig effects, no matter how small or innocuous, will be doomed.

What I see in the video is increasing helm being applied but with no effect, other than to slow the boat and shift the AWA from forward to side on, to add another factor working against rather than with you. The boat seems to on a self driven gentle luff to the wind – probably the rig balance doing this work, until the rig weight and centripetal takes over.

As with so many incidents at sea this seems to be a whole series of little effects contributing to being a scenario that cannot be recovered from.

It has a lot of similarities to the Virbac MOD70 capsize, without the injuries, fortunately (though that in itself was a function of falling from such a large platform). That fleet found the dump valve pipe to be undersized, and was retrofitted larger valves and pipes to massively increase flow at the critical moment.

I salute the video coming out so promptly and urge the more left field suggestions to re-read before posting – the delete button is your friend.

If you were going to crash one of these things, warm water, helicopters, plenty of competitor assistance and professional expertise – this is the place to do it.

Rudo/Misha – your versions perlease?????

As Ellen used to say – a donf. (- I know her context was different.....)

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After watching the video, I get the impression the helm does try to bear away as the hull rises, but nothing seems to happen. - there seems to be movement both ways with the tiller to try and get steerage.

I think there is cavitation with the main foils, as the slide down the face of the wave, and this disrupts the rudders and effects the steering.

Aft the boat heels more, the helm doesn't seem to steer try to steer down

At 40 seconds, all is under control

At 41/42 seconds, the boat is jumping out of the front of the wave,

at 43 seconds, there is a big rooster tail out the back and this could indicate the rudders are suffering cavitation

after that, it doesn't look like the tiller is pulled to make the boat bear away,

at 44 seconds looking at the windward rudder, and foils, they seem to be reasonably centred.

at 45 seconds, it looks like the helmsman has let go of the tiller, as his arm is no longer viable in the the video

and by 48 seconds everyone is more concern about holding on. They know they are going over.

At 48 seconds, the tiller has dropped, and the rudders are turning the boat into the wind.

 

Once the helm let go of the tiller, they were doomed.

But it's great to see GB and the owners posting these videos and allowing us to try and work out what happened.

 

I sail a Tornado, and based on my experience, you only go over like this by not bearing down as the hull lifts.

Either you just sail it over, or you turn into the wind and over you go.

Once you are up there, dropping the sails has little effect. The only solution is to steer down.

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