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      Moderation Team Change   06/16/2017

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ctutmark

Scow Mini v.2

235 posts in this topic

From Davy Beaudart's FB Page10367818_702898526416067_577149459735300-ak-prn2/t1.0-9/10367818_702898526416067_577149459735300102_n.jpg

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Fuck! You know any more Chris?

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Huge fan of this concept.

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2 in build according to Seahorse. One a hull sister to 747 the other an evolved version - this is the latter..

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Clean, just what I saw on Davy's page. Very different treatment of the chine in the bow as it continues all the way around, likely means some additional volume forward. Cannot tell if it's got the telescoping & canting keel like 747. boards appear to splay out at they go down. no sign of a track system for the sprit so maybe it'll be set up with braces per the mini norm, there does appear to be a bobstay which 747 did not have. Cabin is slightly sleeker than 747 possibly set up to help end plate the jib,

 

That's all I've got at the present

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I would love to see any decent video of these scow shapes sailing in heavy seas. I did a quick youtube search and didn't really find anything. I wonder if this shape is just brutal upwind... Off the breeze I imagine all that buoyancy up forward is rather comforting.

 

Anybody got any video?

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Search "Teamwork" and "David Raison" and "747" on dailymotion

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In the aborted first leg of the 2013 Transat, Giancarlo Pedote was blazingly fast upwind in those very challenging conditions - big breeze and messy sea state - in 747, so I think there's strong evidence that the scow's only real vulnerability is in light air conditions where drag becomes more of an issue. Had the Transat RC factored in the finishing times for leg one (as Pedote suggested, with mild annoyance, in at least one interview), he would have won the overall, despite his sprit breakage. Regardless, Benoît Marie's more conventional design was very quick in its own right, and he was able to hang with Pedote all the way across the Atlantic and take advantage of the opportunity when it presented itself.

 

So perhaps it would be safer to say that the scow design is more evolutionary than revolutionary, insofar as it provides the top sailors with just that much more of an edge in speed and stability, particularly off the wind under spinnaker. I suspect that Raison, Marie, Pedote, Gahinet, Mettraux, et al, could win in just about any design.

 

But I'm a big fan of the scow design and actually find it aesthetically compelling, in its own way.

 

I would love to see any decent video of these scow shapes sailing in heavy seas. I did a quick youtube search and didn't really find anything. I wonder if this shape is just brutal upwind... Off the breeze I imagine all that buoyancy up forward is rather comforting.

 

Anybody got any video?

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I have the strangest boner right now :)

 

Awesome looking boat. I always wondered what would happen if you could somehow cross an E-Scow with a ULDB and see it off to Hawaii in a Single Handed TransPac.

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It's great to see such a new concept come along -- one wonders how this might scale to 30-footers. Or even 60 - footers.

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It's great to see such a new concept come along -- one wonders how this might scale to 30-footers. Or even 60 - footers.

 

Volvo One Design v2?

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There are some older-style power catamarans that transition from V-hulls in the bows to nearly monohull at the stern. I wonder how that might work in a sailboat.

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Who would have thought that barge = fast, but hard to argue with results.

 

 

Search "Teamwork" and "David Raison" and "747" on dailymotion

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Still in the box:

Very good. I imagine this new boat will be just as slippery too!

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Interior space, double bed in front and a sun deck, its a chick magnet :)

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I am guessing that hard on the nose the heel makes the bow section hitting the water quite pointy. Like a catamaran. The real penalty must come in light air.

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so much like a catamaran, that if it weren't for the rule, they'd likely just build a catamaran...

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It's great to see such a new concept come along -- one wonders how this might scale to 30-footers. Or even 60 - footers.

 

Volvo One Design v2?

What would be the point if they were again OD? They'd all be fast, or they'd all be slow - but compared to what?

 

Different matter entirely if they were introduced into other mono development classes, which we understand will not be happening anytime soon.

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so much like a catamaran, that if it weren't for the rule, they'd likely just build a catamaran...

 

Maybe -- but the rule for Mini and Open 60 and so forth have stability limit requirements that cats could not pass.

 

Minis are so short and fat, that a mini with a pointy bow goes super bow-down when heeling, this is less true as for longer boats as L/B gets less squatty. So a 40' or 60' might not be so scow like? VO-70 L/B = 3.77, Class 40 L/B = 2.71, Mini L/B = 2.17 at beamy limit.

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I think the reason I like this one so much is that it looks to be designed from the bulb up as a scow...

 

No offense to Raison, but 747 kindof looked like a conventional Mini with a swapped out bow, where as this one's lines flow all the way aft, and even up the sides to the gunnels.

 

Love it, can't wait to see her sail! Agreed would like to see a bigger version (100'er?), but am more interested in this vs 747 vs DSS

 

HW

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Would this concept transfer over to a 8m offshore canting keeler (think karma police)

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Would this concept transfer over to a 8m offshore canting keeler (think karma police)

Depends on what rule you are trying to design for, my understanding is that most of the benefits of the scow bow are easier to achieve simply by making the boat a bit longer. I can't think of any offshore races in australia that have length cutoffs, other than the 12m divisional split for Melbourne to Osaka

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True sailing anarchist to blow off the rules , very nice!

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I agree it's awesome to see people with the guts to give it a shot. Boat looks great. 747 was fast, so this as an evolution has a lot riding on it.

Love the massive foredeck! That little peg isn't the sprit... is it?

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hoping to see more of these around and not only minis!

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Do not think it is outlawed by the TP52 Rule as the article states.

Might not be so clever a concept for WL racing?

Sure looks ugly, but who cares if it is a winner?

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Do not think it is outlawed by the TP52 Rule as the article states.

 

Might not be so clever a concept for WL racing?

 

Sure looks ugly, but who cares if it is a winner?

Well it's not pretty. But then a big fat wedge with its arse up in the air doesn't look at that good either. :)

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Huge fan of this concept.

+1...scows are incredibly fast...in this case, is it the scow-like hull shape or the canting keel? I imagine ripping along up and down swells is much fun. Imagine a C-boat with such a keel.

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Would this concept transfer over to a 8m offshore canting keeler (think karma police)

Depends on what rule you are trying to design for, my understanding is that most of the benefits of the scow bow are easier to achieve simply by making the boat a bit longer. I can't think of any offshore races in australia that have length cutoffs, other than the 12m divisional split for Melbourne to Osaka

Money issue not rule, as the boat gets bigger cost go up!

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Then again Chevy Chase was blindingly fast on a similar craft in Christmas Vacation. Bring out the cooking spray!

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Looks good to me. But mostly for doing exactly one thing: ocean racing downwind. Buoy racing? Not so much. But very cool, and I love pushing the limits.

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Just a thought...now a scow, in principle, moves well because its waterline is lengthened and the boat rises as it heels, right?

 

Now, the one design Flying Scot is essentially a scow with a bow. If so, what if a small bow was added? Would that not satisfy the eye for some, and the rules for others?

 

Not knocking the design, but the thought occurred to me...

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Wondering how much heel he can induce with the keel and stacking. Mitigating the weakness of wetted surface area in light winds.

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Ed, good question. I have no clue, though.

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Just thinking that it might have implications on how well the concept would work in classes/races that ban stacking.

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In measurement condition, the minis have a max 10 degree heel rule with all the water and ballast(keel) to one side but that doesn't account for the required gear that is on the boat while racing along with the drinking water. I would expect that with the gear it is in the 15-17 degree range possibly a bit more.

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Cargo "scows" been around for centuries. Good information.

 

I am still wondering what Ed means by "stacking."

 

And, how in the world can rules define heeling angles, etc?

 

It just seems to me rules like that beg for overrule or outwitting! Which means the rules are likely not devined in the spirit of things either!

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The mini rules define a condition for measurement where, with the ballast(s) in the least favorable position, the boat cannot heel more than 10 degrees. The class measures this.

 

As for stacking, the class allows most of the items on the boat to be moved, anchors, life rafts and fuel cells are some items which are not allowed. The items which must remain in place are wired and clamped into their positions. If the seals are broken at the end of a race the RC can impose a penalty.

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Ctutmark, merci.

 

Hard (for me) to imagine too, but, it is what it is, isn't it?

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In measurement condition, the minis have a max 10 degree heel rule with all the water and ballast(keel) to one side but that doesn't account for the required gear that is on the boat while racing along with the drinking water. I would expect that with the gear it is in the 15-17 degree range possibly a bit more.

and then the wind in the sails so much more heel.

 

IMHO small boats always need more extreme proportions so it may not transfer to the same extent for large boats.

 

The big foredeck should make handling the pole easier.

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In measurement condition, the minis have a max 10 degree heel rule with all the water and ballast(keel) to one side but that doesn't account for the required gear that is on the boat while racing along with the drinking water. I would expect that with the gear it is in the 15-17 degree range possibly a bit more.

and then the wind in the sails so much more heel.

 

IMHO small boats always need more extreme proportions so it may not transfer to the same extent for large boats.

 

The big foredeck should make handling the pole easier.

It's not about small vs. large. The scow bow is about max righting moment and waterline for a limited LOA. Tapering the bow just gives away power. That's why it would work (if not outlawed) for Open 60, Class 40, Maxi, Mini-Maxi. I think Mini-Maxi class outlawed it but am not sure. TP52 have a box that doesn't allow scows IIRC. C40 and O60 outlaw it clearly. Maxis...under 100'...all good.

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In measurement condition, the minis have a max 10 degree heel rule with all the water and ballast(keel) to one side but that doesn't account for the required gear that is on the boat while racing along with the drinking water. I would expect that with the gear it is in the 15-17 degree range possibly a bit more.

and then the wind in the sails so much more heel.

 

IMHO small boats always need more extreme proportions so it may not transfer to the same extent for large boats.

 

The big foredeck should make handling the pole easier.

It's not about small vs. large. The scow bow is about max righting moment and waterline for a limited LOA. Tapering the bow just gives away power. That's why it would work (if not outlawed) for Open 60, Class 40, Maxi, Mini-Maxi. I think Mini-Maxi class outlawed it but am not sure. TP52 have a box that doesn't allow scows IIRC. C40 and O60 outlaw it clearly. Maxis...under 100'...all good.

From the GP 26 rule:

 

 

201.3 Hollows in Hull. Aft of 30% LOA the hull there shall be no hollows in the hull surface below the

sheerline. The sheerline shall be a fair, concave curve in profile view and a fair, convex curve in plan
view with no double inflections in either view. Hollows generated by any protrusion outside the
outer skin of the hull are not allowed. A recess, of a maximum of 20 litres of volume, is permitted in
the hull, only in the area of the keel attachment and for this purpose only. The keel (when in
position) shall totally fill this recess. Any part of the keel contained in this recess, as well as outside
the hull outer skin, is considered keel and will be weighed as keel.

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In measurement condition, the minis have a max 10 degree heel rule with all the water and ballast(keel) to one side but that doesn't account for the required gear that is on the boat while racing along with the drinking water. I would expect that with the gear it is in the 15-17 degree range possibly a bit more.

and then the wind in the sails so much more heel.

 

IMHO small boats always need more extreme proportions so it may not transfer to the same extent for large boats.

 

The big foredeck should make handling the pole easier.

It's not about small vs. large. The scow bow is about max righting moment and waterline for a limited LOA. Tapering the bow just gives away power. That's why it would work (if not outlawed) for Open 60, Class 40, Maxi, Mini-Maxi. I think Mini-Maxi class outlawed it but am not sure. TP52 have a box that doesn't allow scows IIRC. C40 and O60 outlaw it clearly. Maxis...under 100'...all good.

The fact that this would work makes some (including myself) hope that Class40 and Open60 will soon remove restrictions on bow sections' width. For the moment they do not want to trash older boats and ruin financially the entire class. I hope they do not fall into the same spiral like IRC boats...

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more details here. (in french but google helps)

- appendices and keel system are ~ same

- according to designer, it goes over certain limits set in the 1st boat, until design concept was validated (so even more powerful?)

 

Strange to hear that he has been the 1st to order David Raison a new proto in Sept 2013. (still the only one?)

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more details here. (in french but google helps)

- appendices and keel system are ~ same

- according to designer, it goes over certain limits set in the 1st boat, until design concept was validated (so even more powerful?)

 

Strange to hear that he has been the 1st to order David Raison a new proto in Sept 2013. (still the only one?)

This must be a pretty good share of new protos orders in that period (unfortunately)

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Could it been done with a fixed keel series? With everything stacked it may just work in light air as well...

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Check our steel maxi sow called a skutsje (or barge)

 

Sizes between 15 and 21 meter

 

http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sk%C3%BBtsje

and the do plane:

 

 

A couple of scow related links:

 

http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schouw_(historisch_scheepje)

http://fy.wikipedia.org/wiki/GWS-skou

 

Just to check what the dutch did before.

 

(Before you ask, I don't understand dutch, neither frysk.)

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Barges tend to be long and narrow, I was looking for something with proportions closer to a mini, kinda a speeljacht.

 

 

post-34483-0-57577000-1400156295_thumb.gif

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Exactly...same as Flying Scot...I think a bit of a bow will offer more, not much, but some. Thanks for the comparison pics.

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I don't see it. the waterlines seem the same length.

The curve of the bow in the scow type is more curved in the underwater section.

I thought that would lead to a luff steering boat that has to be corrected by trim and rudder.

I do not see the benifit. The more buoyancy volume up-front leads to more uprighting stability and that gives more propelling power.

Is that the trick?

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Makes sense that it is not obvious. I might see what is not obvious also.

 

Maybe not so obvious. The scow hull, as I understand it, is designed to heal, and, as the boat heals, the water line is lengthened and more hull rises above the water. The C-Boat may be the best visual of this, but I do not have the examples to put up.

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The more buoyancy volume up-front leads to more uprighting stability and that gives more propelling power.

Is that the trick?

yes, esp on a reach

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Yep, and they really go fast when the captain has a belly full of Gosling's. (Black Seal :-o) Seriously, I know a C-Boat is deceptively fast and on inland water, seems untroubled by a chop, but unless there is some visual to make the VMG obvious, the speed is subtle. I could say that applies to all the scows, but have only been on the C and the MC and the X, which is a "sorta" scow for younger swabs, like the Flying Scot...both good boats but a bit boring.

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Exactly...same as Flying Scot...I think a bit of a bow will offer more, not much, but some. Thanks for the comparison pics.

Except Flying Scots are slow as shit when heeled... have to sail them flat like a Laser. You're the only person I've heard describe a Scot as a scow, the reality is thats not the case.

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In measurement condition, the minis have a max 10 degree heel rule with all the water and ballast(keel) to one side but that doesn't account for the required gear that is on the boat while racing along with the drinking water. I would expect that with the gear it is in the 15-17 degree range possibly a bit more.

and then the wind in the sails so much more heel.

 

IMHO small boats always need more extreme proportions so it may not transfer to the same extent for large boats.

 

The big foredeck should make handling the pole easier.

It's not about small vs. large. The scow bow is about max righting moment and waterline for a limited LOA. Tapering the bow just gives away power. That's why it would work (if not outlawed) for Open 60, Class 40, Maxi, Mini-Maxi. I think Mini-Maxi class outlawed it but am not sure. TP52 have a box that doesn't allow scows IIRC. C40 and O60 outlaw it clearly. Maxis...under 100'...all good.

 

 

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. Yeah right. We all know that what works in small craft is automatically translatable at a larger scale because the see state automatically scales to the size of the vessel trying to go across it.

 

If only one of you could find the few million dollars required to build the f..ing 60 feet IMOCA like thing just so we can all see you puke/beat your way all the way up the Atlantic (or rather up to the first harbor along the South American coast) in a round the world race.

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Mr. Koch, I am not smart enough to know the intricacies of Sandy Douglass design's but do recall the similarities mentioned back then, when I was fooling around with C-Boats and never forgot it, right or wrong. Was never quite a Thistle or Scot fan, besides. Still, it appears a possibility, doesn't it. It has been around a long time, so likely no one much delves into its past. C'est le vie. Does not matter much...

 

Edouard-o. so bitting, so bitter. No one knocking the boat here, is their?

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Issue I see with scaling and the scow bow in seas is the inland scows are very much like surfboards with a lot less freeboard than Magnum or any bigger boat would need to have. With the low freeboard design the boat gets a lot more pointy as you add heel - the extra freeboard is going to keep the frontal area relatively larger at the same angle of heel.

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Fuck it looks worse with the sails up. I wouldn't have predicted that.

 

Hope it's quick or it's chainsaw bait.

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I like the lack of a bow wave. That's gotta be helping.

 

It's not about looks....obviously. Just as well I guess.

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With the bow overhang, isn't the w/l length shorter than a plumb stem version? Fuck its hideous

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I just bought a transat and I'd rather be slow than sail that scow.

 

I can see the reasons for it but it's no looker...

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I have to admit, when younger, I was not a scow fan, until I sailed on a C-boat. I was also not a keeler, until I sailed on one that could run with a C-boat in a chop.

 

The above gripes and moans were around when the cats of both stripes first appeared, when clipper ships carried scotch, when paddlewheels spun and coal smoke hit the canvas...c'est la vie.

 

I guess it comes down to part aesthetics and part function and part wisdom...though I prefer the less complicated plain keel, even a twin version for tidal basins.

 

I am more of a fan of this rig than kites, surfboards and even former trending but fading, AC flash foilers...for obvious reason, a boat is a boat, especially those which please their master on average. JMHO.

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ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. Yeah right. We all know that what works in small craft is automatically translatable at a larger scale because the see state automatically scales to the size of the vessel trying to go across it.

 

If only one of you could find the few million dollars required to build the f..ing 60 feet IMOCA like thing just so we can all see you puke/beat your way all the way up the Atlantic (or rather up to the first harbor along the South American coast) in a round the world race.

 

Without discounting the valid points about scaling, it's nevertheless the case that IMOCA 60 designs and last generation (i.e., pre-OD) VOR designs have been trending toward fuller bow sections. Obviously not to the extreme of the scows, but the underlying principles and motivation are the same - increased interior volume forward generates more buoyancy and reduces the tendency of the boat to nose dive when sailing in big breeze, particularly downwind. With water ballast in the stern, the bigger boats don't need to be as aggressive as the Minis in carrying the design to it's logical extreme, but the NA's are well aware of the benefits, and incorporate the concept as appropriate.

 

macif_VCurutchet.jpg

 

I personally like the way the boat looks, especially in big breeze downwind with the big kite up. Then you can clearly see the advantages. And nothing is sexier than being faster than your competition (well, perhaps in certain circumstances, slower is much, much sexier). :D

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Aesthetics? guys, gives us a break... I bet very few of you would get excited with womens' body type & underwear your grandpas got excited some 60 years ago. What is important is to get the job done => be fast! As for the IMOCA, yes indeed last generation boats are as fat as possible. And those who do not have the budget, convert older ones to make them get a fatter bow too. Have a look at the refit of Riechers' imoca. Before , during and finally after.

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So, adding a short prow would hinder? Just curious!

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BB, my scow-sailing experience is limited to one C of C regatta at Lake Geneva a couple decades ago. However, I am familiar with their design and history. Scows are flat bottomed their entire length. Flying Scots are not. They are V-shaped forward, the V diminishing farther aft until becoming flat just aft the rear of the CB trunk. I do have a lot of experience sailing Scots, they most def are slow when heeled, completely opposite how a scow is designed to sail. The closest resemblence to a Scot, inre lines, is a low-powered semi-displacement powerboat.... and Ive never seen a Maine lobsterboat increase speed by heeling over.

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Will stand on previous statement...no argument from me, it is what it is.

 

I sailed Geneva, been to Zenda and White Bear.

 

I might note that Melges' later hulls were not so even...MC, etc.

 

Still, the scow VMG or ride did depend on the heel.

 

As I said, never was a Scot etc fan, and do not recall even wanting to sail on one. Again, no argument from me, save I do like the subject boat that brought on all these minor tilts, though I am building me-self a Malibu Outrigger outrigger just to do it. Maybe should have used two old Butterfly hulls...:o ?

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Depends on the scow:

post-30-0-40076900-1400254038.gif

post-30-0-15458300-1400254356_thumb.jpg

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Doug, Thanks, interesting stuff.

 

I used to love the big C-boats, sheer speed, little work, be out when no power boat would venture...and the noise it made wave to wave...then how quiet it tended to be when a puff lifted it...you could almost hear the speed change. Not sure if MC offered same tickle. Long long ago, alas.

 

But then the above thread starter rig looks to be deja vue, all over again, only bigger )

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BB, some OD scows incorporate a hollow, but hollow in the inland lake scows has been disallowed since the 1880s. One was built back then, and it was so much faster (since it approximated a catamaran) it was banned. I think it was Sewanka Cup (?)... cant remember boat name. Im sure a SAist will chime in.

 

So we dont get too far astray from the original topic... I think the scow-mini will be quite fast in designed conditions... off the wind in a breeze. Probably not so fast upwind, and it probably will pound like a motherfucker in a chop.

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Just saw the fine print in pics. Yes, Dominion was the hollowed scow that prompted the rule change.

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MCs were what was sailed at the C of C. I dont recall them being a tunnel hull, but perhaps they are. It was 20+ years ago. I do recall there being quite a learning curve, as they were quite unlike anything I'd sailed before (or since, for that matter). First days racing blown out, wind was 25+. Porter bros rigged up their E scow, sailed it over to YC, and spent afternoon taking us for rides. Very nice of them, and WOW , what a ride! Cool boat for lake sailing, but not so good for bays and Gulf in Fla where the waves are too big. If I lived near a sailing-sized lake though, I'd def consider getting a scow.

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MCs were what was sailed at the C of C. I dont recall them being a tunnel hull, but perhaps they are. It was 20+ years ago. I do recall there being quite a learning curve, as they were quite unlike anything I'd sailed before (or since, for that matter). First days racing blown out, wind was 25+. Porter bros rigged up their E scow, sailed it over to YC, and spent afternoon taking us for rides. Very nice of them, and WOW , what a ride! Cool boat for lake sailing, but not so good for bays and Gulf in Fla where the waves are too big. If I lived near a sailing-sized lake though, I'd def consider getting a scow.

 

I crewed on an E scow when I was about 16-an absolute blast in 15 knots on Pensacola Bay! Memories that never go away....

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Hmmm, I think the M20 is a tunnel hull... maybe thats what you're thinking of? I cant remember if the MC was or not.

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Theres a small fleet of E-scows in Sarasota, but I doubt they go out when its blowing more than 15.

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Yep, thought the MC was a tunnel, but the links seem to indic not...no matter. I would say the 20 was and I mixed them...not surprising...still in all, the MC or the C are the best, unless on big water, that that boat above, about 5 feet longer might be close in big water. Gotta love em, even if too late.

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ratifarian.

You asked.

Example @ 12Deg. of heel.

 

post-32003-0-66776600-1400333098_thumb.jpg

 

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Hey, Tanton, I like that but will have to work with it for a bit...so, if the port example gets a longer snout that does not affect lwl, it changes? As noted earlier, bulged bows seem to be the rage...

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BB, the scows developed because the rating and development rules used at the time measured primarily DWL length and sail area. A "typical" scow of the time had a wl about 1/2 the loa, allowing a much larger sail area. When heeled, the BWL became much narrower, the boat sat a bit deeper in the water immersing the long overhangs for a greater sailing length. As for the Mini, it doesn't apper to have muxh overhangs, with the LOA being limited. Interesting design, but it remains to be seen if it works.

 

There was a big scow built for the America's Cup back in the large sloop era (Reliant, etc). Can't remember the designer, but the boat had major structural problems because of the high ballast ratio. Boat would twist badly when heeled, locking up the rudder. It was broken up shortly after the trials, IIRC the hull was steel-framed, with bronze plating below the water and aluminum plating above the water. Electrolysis must have been a huge problem.

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As for the Mini, it doesn't apper to have muxh overhangs, with the LOA being limited. Interesting design, but it remains to be seen if it works.

 

747 worked rather well. The point isn't about overhangs, it's form stability.

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PE, no question the flat bottom has more form stabilty. Probably planes a bit sooner too. Both desireable characteristics for a breezy off-wind race. All around... who knows? How does 727 do upwind? light air?

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