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Matagi

Beneteau 40.7 Cheeki Rafiki missing Mid-Atlantic

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There's still hopes, and shame on this Maersk Kure containership captain.

Sign this quickly, and pray for these 4 guys.

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/restart-search-missing-cheeki-rafiki-crew-members/8dWNl5lF

 

That's just plain ignorance...

 

<

blockquote>

>

Statement on the search and rescue (SAR) of Cheeki Rafiki

 

Nina Marie Skyum-NielsenGlobal Community Manager20/05/2014

 

We have talked to the owners of Maersk Kure and can share below info on this weekend’s Search and Rescue (SAR): On Saturday morning, 17 May, Maersk Kure, a chartered container vessel owned by Costamare in Greece, received a request from the U.S. Coast Guard’s Rescue Coordination Centre (RCC) in Boston to assist with a Search and Rescue (SAR) Operation for sailing yacht Cheeki Rafiki. Maersk Kure deviated to the area, where the RCC believed the yacht was positioned. During the SAR, Maersk Kure spotted an object which looked like the hull of a sailing boat. Maersk Kure reported this to the RCC. Maersk Kure was advised by the RCC to continue the SAR at another position. On Sunday morning, 18 May, the RCC informed Maersk Kure that the Search and Rescue Operation was suspended and Maersk Kure should proceed to its port of destination.

 

http://maersklinesocial.com/statement-on-the-search-and-rescue-sar-of-cheeki-rafik

i/

Oh yeah, do you need a special request from the RCC to check the hull of a turtled yacht that capsized in the past 24 hours, while you're passing by at 15 knots?

They were reporting 50knts in the area at the time and big seas. How the fuck is someone from a large containership going to get into a capsised swamped yacht in those conditions? You sir are a fucking idiot.

 

Unfortunatly I thing CMS probably nailed it a few posts ago, I hope he's wrong.

 

All I can see on the picture is a force 4 to 5 sea conditons, and sunny weather. There's no way the wind was blowind 50knts+ when the picture was taken.

You should try ocean sailing one day, it would give you an idea of what the ocean looks like when it's blowing force 10.

Whatever the weather conditions are, I am glad that everytime I have been crossing the Atlantic on 40 footers, I could stand by fucking idiots in the area in case things would go wrong.

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There's still hopes, and shame on this Maersk Kure containership captain.

Sign this quickly, and pray for these 4 guys.

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/restart-search-missing-cheeki-rafiki-crew-members/8dWNl5lF

 

That's just plain ignorance...

 

<

blockquote>

>

Statement on the search and rescue (SAR) of Cheeki Rafiki

 

Nina Marie Skyum-NielsenGlobal Community Manager20/05/2014

 

We have talked to the owners of Maersk Kure and can share below info on this weekend’s Search and Rescue (SAR): On Saturday morning, 17 May, Maersk Kure, a chartered container vessel owned by Costamare in Greece, received a request from the U.S. Coast Guard’s Rescue Coordination Centre (RCC) in Boston to assist with a Search and Rescue (SAR) Operation for sailing yacht Cheeki Rafiki. Maersk Kure deviated to the area, where the RCC believed the yacht was positioned. During the SAR, Maersk Kure spotted an object which looked like the hull of a sailing boat. Maersk Kure reported this to the RCC. Maersk Kure was advised by the RCC to continue the SAR at another position. On Sunday morning, 18 May, the RCC informed Maersk Kure that the Search and Rescue Operation was suspended and Maersk Kure should proceed to its port of destination.

 

http://maersklinesocial.com/statement-on-the-search-and-rescue-sar-of-cheeki-rafik

i/

Oh yeah, do you need a special request from the RCC to check the hull of a turtled yacht that capsized in the past 24 hours, while you're passing by at 15 knots?

They were reporting 50knts in the area at the time and big seas. How the fuck is someone from a large containership going to get into a capsised swamped yacht in those conditions? You sir are a fucking idiot.

 

Unfortunatly I thing CMS probably nailed it a few posts ago, I hope he's wrong.

 

All I can see on the picture is a force 4 to 5 sea conditons, and sunny weather. There's no way the wind was blowind 50knts+ when the picture was taken.

You should try ocean sailing one day, it would give you an idea of what the ocean looks like when it's blowing force 10.

Whatever the weather conditions are, I am glad that everytime I have been crossing the Atlantic on 40 footers, I could stand by fucking idiots in the area in case things would go wrong.

As much as I am disappointed/disgusted that the search was called off and that the Maersk ship was unable to investigate further. I need to point out that you, Raley, are talking out of your arse. If you can sea a force 4 to 5 on the LEEWARD side of a large merchant ship then I think you can add significantly. Plus, of course, we know how much waves get flattened in photographs (ever tried to take a photo of gnarly conditions?). As for sunshine...since when did strong winds negate the sun?

Now add in the fact that you have an upturned hull with approximately 1/4Km of line floating around under the cockpit, and a crew that are not trained in rescue techniques. If you were the skipper of that merchant ship you would now be adding your crewmember as a casualty.

 

I have signed the petition, I DO believe that further searching is neccesary, but there is so much speculation and emotion being thrown about that reality is being ignored.

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That's all I was asking for, and not being called an ignorant, or a fucking idiot, so sorry for the emotion. It happens I have been sailing with 2 of these guys, who are just 22 and 23, and full of strength and seamanship. Probably a bit more than some of the last posters on this thread.

With a 318-meter long containership, I reckon it's a hell of a wave breaker, and keeping the wreck to leeward would have allowed an easier check/rescue. They have plenty of stuff, and are supposed to be trained for these kind of shit situations. (Don't know about the greek flag regulations)

Anyway, looking at the spray, the ship was far from stationary when they took the picture. Of course I'm not a Class 1 supertanker captain, just a 200 GT RYA/MCA ocean yacht master, but as a stupid delivery skipper I think I would feel sleep disturbance for a couple of days, passing by a capsized boat, and not stopping, whatever the weather was, and whatever my own boat was.

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and just how were they supposed to do that you ignorant ass? Merchant Ships are not equipped with any kind of gear to enter an overturned hull and if they had a rescue boat or launch they were not going to launch it in those seas. They did NOT drive by at 15 knots either, the picture shows them next to the hull and probably only moving at steerage speed.

 

 

There's still hopes, and shame on this Maersk Kure containership captain.

Sign this quickly, and pray for these 4 guys.

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/restart-search-missing-cheeki-rafiki-crew-members/8dWNl5lF

 

That's just plain ignorance...

 

>

Statement on the search and rescue (SAR) of Cheeki Rafiki

Nina Marie Skyum-NielsenGlobal Community Manager20/05/2014

We have talked to the owners of Maersk Kure and can share below info on this weekend’s Search and Rescue (SAR): On Saturday morning, 17 May, Maersk Kure, a chartered container vessel owned by Costamare in Greece, received a request from the U.S. Coast Guard’s Rescue Coordination Centre (RCC) in Boston to assist with a Search and Rescue (SAR) Operation for sailing yacht Cheeki Rafiki. Maersk Kure deviated to the area, where the RCC believed the yacht was positioned. During the SAR, Maersk Kure spotted an object which looked like the hull of a sailing boat. Maersk Kure reported this to the RCC. Maersk Kure was advised by the RCC to continue the SAR at another position. On Sunday morning, 18 May, the RCC informed Maersk Kure that the Search and Rescue Operation was suspended and Maersk Kure should proceed to its port of destination.

 

http://maersklinesocial.com/statement-on-the-search-and-rescue-sar-of-cheeki-rafik

i/

Oh yeah, do you need a special request from the RCC to check the hull of a turtled yacht that capsized in the past 24 hours, while you're passing by at 15 knots?

 

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I think the really dark area is the saildrive leg, There's a bigger copy of the photo here, looks L shaped. Memory of walking past a few 40.7s on the hard says that the prop is quite far forward.article-2632543-1DFEF4A600000578-656_102This photo, which I think is from Antigua seems to show dark grey antifoul too.asw14-3045_CheekiRafiki.jpg

I totally agree with Firebar on his analysis of the photo. This hull is a lot more sunk than it looks... Follow Firebar's logic and add my interpretation for a second:

 

The rudder is the black object on the right. The smaller black L-shaped object is the saildrive leg. The grey area is bottom paint and it's a funny shape and lighter color because white foam is lapping right up to that level. If you look closely, I think you maybe able to make out an extended outline of the hull arcing off to the left which puts the bow at about 10o'clock and only just inside the yellow circle. The bit you can see is therefore only half the boat - the whole front half of the boat is under white water in the left half of the circle.

 

Bottom line, this boat is only just afloat. Maybe a foot of boat remains above the surface - and it's slightly nose down so the bow is completely submerged.

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Seemingly lost in the discussion was the statement that the CG continued the search for a day after the overturned hull was spotted. No doubt the search had then focused on an area from the hull where a liferaft would have drifted. No liferaft spotted.

My guess is same as posted above... crew attempting to deal with a moderate leak (no big emergency at that point) when BAM keel falls off and boat rolls over. No way to get liferaft or EPIRB, crew in water in their foulies and PFDs, manage to get a signal transmitted from PLBs. However, survival time IN the water pretty short.

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Sadly, the likely scenario was:

Leak, hard to find the source, but pumps keeping up OK.

Keep searching for source of leak. If you have tried when there is a fair amount of water in a boat, you will know how hard it is. Looks likely the leak was in keel area.

Yes--- and there was time for an operator to call in that they were taking on water. As soon as that call ended, ANY reasonable person is getting the life raft on deck, loading it with all available supplies, life jackets, hopefully some dry bags loaded with food and warm clothes… there was time to make a call-in so there was time to get the raft on deck and maybe fully inflated to be ready for the worst. I cannot imagine how shitty it was out there but their survival for two days should not be ruled out.

 

First and most important: Condolences to the family of the crew of the Cheeki Rafiki, it is a terrible situation and although not impossible, a good outcome is unlikely.

 

Next: Sailing is a fairly safe sport in aggregate but sailing on the open ocean certainly poses a higher risk than sailing on the local lake. The fact that an experienced crew, on a fairly good sized boat ran into serious trouble out in the Atlantic ocean is testament to that fact. Modern boats, advanced safety gear, communication systems and other advances in the sport have reduced the risk somewhat from the days of yore but even with those factors it is amazing that more sailors are not lost at sea on the open ocean.

 

Last and certainly not least, a little rant: 1 sailor, in the information about you, you state you "Sail Lasers on a small toilet bowl of a lake." Thank you for sharing that vital piece of information which will make the job of ridiculing your post so much easier. You state ANY reasonable person in the tragic situation would be on deck loading up the fully inflated life raft with all the necessary items to ensure a safe, snug float until rescuers arrived. Have you ever been on a boat bigger than a Laser? Have you ever seen a 12 man life raft? Look at some pictures of a Beneteau 40.7 and tell me exactly where you are going to inflate a 12 man life raft and proceed to load it with goodies. Even if you could find the space to accomplish this task, now try to do it in 50 mph winds and seas up to 20 feet. I'll even give you the benefit of the doubt and say that 2 other crew members are not otherwise engaged in efforts to save themselves, are available to help you. Go buy a 12 man raft. The next time the wind is blowing 50 plus inflate the raft outside with three of your friends and try to hold it still on the flat, non-heaving, uncluttered space in your back yard. Having fun watching your new raft bouncing down the street and going airborn over your neighbor's house? BTW, even very reasonable people often become slightly unreasonable under adverse, life threatening conditions, which I believe is not an unreasonable way to describe the conditions experienced by the crew of the Beneteau. Are you are one of those sage sailors that solemnly repeats the old saw that you should always step up into the life raft, too. Sure, in 20 foot seas, blowing snot and a damaged boat. But hey, it sounds good, very wise and nautical, right? And in the grand scheme of things, 50+ and 20 ft seas are not the worst conditions but they sure as shit aren't my favorite conditions on anything under 300 ft or so.

 

To all of the other "I know better than anybodies" out there: The US Coast Guard is a rather experienced organization that makes search and rescue at sea one of their priorities. They have been doing this a long time and they have developed protocols and procedures weighing many factors to maximize their search and rescue efforts. Sure, in the best of all possible worlds, the Coasties would rush helos, planes, and ships to the area of any maritime disaster and spend as many hours, days, weeks or months necessary until every survivor or body was recovered from the scene. Then they would employ submersible vehicles, if necessary, to find and raise the wreckage to definitively ascertain the cause of the problem to help prevent recurrence. What, preposterous you say? No more preposterous than some of the claims and charges people are leveling at the Coast Guard in this incident. A boat capsized and possibly lives were lost. It happens, it's sad and get over it. To make some of the claims that have been presented on this forum is doing a big disservice to the Coast Guard and the individuals that risk their lives on a daily basis. Please take your suspicions and preposterous statements and theories to Black Helicopter Anarchy. And another thing, why is it in todays slacktivist, it's easier to talk shit on an internet forum society we live in today that people start a petition for every little thing. Behold, the power of the petition! Other than providing the illusory satisfaction that "There, I did something", what good does putting your name in electrons on a website accomplish? Nothing? Yeah I thought so. But hey, you did something, right? I bet it helps those who sign such useless petitions sleep better at night.

 

To paraphrase the favorite saying of mothers everywhere: If you can't say anything nice intelligent, don't say anything at all.

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i just wish I could be at sea, doing the ARC regatta, and change my course to find these guys.

What about you, "Sailman" from "Portsmouth, RI", did you ever sail around the real Portsmouth, in the Solent, to see what tide and current means?

You are probably much safer and busy posting insults at people and things you don't know, your dinghy shoved up your ass, waiting for the nice breeze to come.

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That's all I was asking for, and not being called an ignorant, or a fucking idiot, so sorry for the emotion. It happens I have been sailing with 2 of these guys, who are just 22 and 23, and full of strength and seamanship. Probably a bit more than some of the last posters on this thread.

With a 318-meter long containership, I reckon it's a hell of a wave breaker, and keeping the wreck to leeward would have allowed an easier check/rescue. They have plenty of stuff, and are supposed to be trained for these kind of shit situations. (Don't know about the greek flag regulations)

Anyway, looking at the spray, the ship was far from stationary when they took the picture. Of course I'm not a Class 1 supertanker captain, just a 200 GT RYA/MCA ocean yacht master, but as a stupid delivery skipper I think I would feel sleep disturbance for a couple of days, passing by a capsized boat, and not stopping, whatever the weather was, and whatever my own boat was.

Over a decade ago now, but when a crew on the ARC were picked up by a passing container ship (due to destroyed rudder bearing structure) the manoeuvring of the ship pretty much destroyed the yacht.

It is just horrendously difficult and dangerous to try and investigate a tiny yacht from such a large ship. The Captain may well still be having sleepless nights, but his first priority (as yours is when you are on delivery) is to the safety of his crew. I cannot imagine having to move on in that situation, but I also do not see how he could have achieved anything without endangering his own crew.

 

Sorry to hear that you know the guys, and glad the search is back on.

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Take a breather raley. I've sailed on Merchant Ships for many years in a variety of conditions. Your statements about the ship's actions were wrong and ignorant, get over it.

i just wish I could be at sea, doing the ARC regatta, and change my course to find these guys.

What about you, "Sailman" from "Portsmouth, RI", did you ever sail around the real Portsmouth, in the Solent, to see what tide and current means?

You are probably much safer and busy posting insults at people and things you don't know, your dinghy shoved up your ass, waiting for the nice breeze to come.

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Sadly, the likely scenario was:

Leak, hard to find the source, but pumps keeping up OK.

Keep searching for source of leak. If you have tried when there is a fair amount of water in a boat, you will know how hard it is. Looks likely the leak was in keel area.

Yes--- and there was time for an operator to call in that they were taking on water. As soon as that call ended, ANY reasonable person is getting the life raft on deck, loading it with all available supplies, life jackets, hopefully some dry bags loaded with food and warm clothes… there was time to make a call-in so there was time to get the raft on deck and maybe fully inflated to be ready for the worst. I cannot imagine how shitty it was out there but their survival for two days should not be ruled out.

 

First and most important: Condolences to the family of the crew of the Cheeki Rafiki, it is a terrible situation and although not impossible, a good outcome is unlikely.

 

AWESOME STUFF...

 

To paraphrase the favorite saying of mothers everywhere: If you can't say anything nice intelligent, don't say anything at all.

 

I agree with everything in your post.

 

Cut it down to not make this page a million scrolls long. Half the problem with here, and the internet in general, is people wanting to say something, wanting to "help" when they have absolutely zero first hand knowledge or experience to do so. When it comes to things like this, signing a fucking online petition to make yourself feel better, or accusing the Coasties of being slack is the easy way out.

 

Bottom line is, shit happens. We ALL know the risks. I hope these lads are out there, and that we'll find em.

 

To the laser SAR guys, the armchair navigators, and keyboard warriors. Shut the fuck up. This thread isn't for you.

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I don't fault the Maersk crew at all - i think they did all that could be expected

 

I was somewhat involved, by standing by and helping with radio communications, while a sailing yacht tried to organize assistance from a large cruise ship, about 750 miles from land. They wished to evacuate an injured crew member.

 

The first thing is to know that the captain's first responsibility is to his passengers and crew.

 

in the situation i was involved with, the captain declined to put a boat in the water to assist the sailing yacht - and i don't blame him. It was a very squally night, with decent size seas - winds had been in the 15-25kt range for many days.

 

The captain was unequivocal - there was no way he was going to risk any of his crew by launching a RIB.

 

He offered to have the sailing yacht come along side, and they would hoist the person up.

 

in the present case, the photo indicates with a high degree of certainty that nobody is alive inside that hull.

 

why should a captain risk one of his crew to investigate further?

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Even if the liferaft was on deck, which is where it was most likely stowed anyway, once the boat turns turtle - or even on its beam, how do you get to the damn thing? If they were taking on water and were thinking about going in the raft, its not like you can have it someplace uninflated thats not actually on the boat, no? If you do inflate it, now you've got a problem to deal with while dealing with the leaking problem, and if the leaking problem is solved what do you do with the now inflated liferaft? To get to the raft under the boat would mean not inflating, or deflating, your PFD so you can swim down. This is not a particularly appealing solution either - particularly with all the lines dangling around. Anyone who has been around even a capsized 420 knows how many things there are that try and wrap around your ankles.

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I hope my "likely scenario" is wrong too!

 

When you think you have a fixable leak, in conditions when your boat is a better bet than the liferaft, you work flat out to find and fix the leak. Could have been so many relatively minor things, most of which could be quickly fixed. Just sailing the boat in the prevailing conditions was tiring, and struggling below would have been awful.

 

If the raft was sensibly positioned, for quick deployment, then they may have felt OK on that front, and that finding the leak was the much bigger priority.

 

For their main EPIRB not no have been activated means perhaps it did not work, or perhaps the catastrophe happened so fast that there was no time or chance to get to it.

 

For the 2 PLBs to be activated suggests they were not in the raft.

 

The question of why they had a 12 person raft, known to be dangerous for only 4 crew - if of course this information is correct. They would, in my experience, be more likely to have had 2 six person rafts.

 

Still praying.

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Seems like everyone is assuming that if the keel fell off the boat would've flipped over right away. I'm not sure that would've happened. When Rambler capsized in 2011, it took about 60 seconds from the keel falling off. It would take even longer for it to become completely inverted. A capsized dinghy doesn't invert right away, I don't see how a keel boat would, even without the keel.

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Seems like everyone is assuming that if the keel fell off the boat would've flipped over right away. I'm not sure that would've happened. When Rambler capsized in 2011, it took about 60 seconds from the keel falling off. It would take even longer for it to become completely inverted. A capsized dinghy doesn't invert right away, I don't see how a keel boat would, even without the keel.

depends on the boat. while im not saying you are wrong, i doubt that from the time a keel broke off to the mast hitting the water would have been 60 seconds for rambler, i think you may have misread something.

 

Some dinghies invert right away, some dont. It depends on a lot of factors like how high out of the water the boat floats, whether the mast is sealed, how heavy the mast is, etc. It also depends on how much sail is up - a dinghy with no sails up turtles almost instantly - ever had a a dinghy capsize on a tow? These guys were reefed, maybe with storm sails up, there would not have been much resistance holding the mast up to balance the weight of the mast pulling down.

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Seems like everyone is assuming that if the keel fell off the boat would've flipped over right away. I'm not sure that would've happened. When Rambler capsized in 2011, it took about 60 seconds from the keel falling off. It would take even longer for it to become completely inverted. A capsized dinghy doesn't invert right away, I don't see how a keel boat would, even without the keel.

 

not only that.., it's possible that they got off before the keel came off.

 

perhaps there came a time when the keel was still attached, but the water coming in was at a rate such that they thought the boat would sink shortly, and they launched the life raft while it was still at least a somewhat orderly affair.

 

then, instead of the boat flooding and sinking, the keel fell to the bottom and the boat turtled.

 

either way.., i don't believe that there is any way to confidently say they are not floating in the raft somewhere.

 

i don't even think you can say it to a 75% confidence level.., and so further searching is clearly warranted.

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Seems like everyone is assuming that if the keel fell off the boat would've flipped over right away. I'm not sure that would've happened. When Rambler capsized in 2011, it took about 60 seconds from the keel falling off. It would take even longer for it to become completely inverted. A capsized dinghy doesn't invert right away, I don't see how a keel boat would, even without the keel.

depends on the boat. while im not saying you are wrong, i doubt that from the time a keel broke off to the mast hitting the water would have been 60 seconds for rambler, i think you may have misread something.

 

Some dinghies invert right away, some dont. It depends on a lot of factors like how high out of the water the boat floats, whether the mast is sealed, how heavy the mast is, etc. It also depends on how much sail is up - a dinghy with no sails up turtles almost instantly - ever had a a dinghy capsize on a tow? These guys were reefed, maybe with storm sails up, there would not have been much resistance holding the mast up to balance the weight of the mast pulling down.

 

not trying to be a dick, but I did look it up ;).

"

RAMBLER 100, a 100 FT canting keel racing sloop with a crew of 21 participating in the 2011 Rolex Fastnet Race, rounded Fastnet Rock at 1717 local time (BST) and turned southwest for the Pantaenius offset mark (7 miles away) into 23-25 knot headwinds and a sizable (2m) short sharp sea. Shortly after the turn her canting keel snapped off just below the hull exit causing her to capsize, in less than 60 seconds. "

http://about.ussailing.org/AssetFactory.aspx?vid=16967

 

I think it would depend alot on wave state too, if you got a big wave right when the keel fell off and it tossed the boat over that would've been instantaneous... Really hope they find these guys, for their and their family's sake, but also to figure out what happened.

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I totally agree with Firebar on his analysis of the photo. This hull is a lot more sunk than it looks... Follow Firebar's logic and add my interpretation for a second:

 

The rudder is the black object on the right. The smaller black L-shaped object is the saildrive leg. The grey area is bottom paint and it's a funny shape and lighter color because white foam is lapping right up to that level. If you look closely, I think you maybe able to make out an extended outline of the hull arcing off to the left which puts the bow at about 10o'clock and only just inside the yellow circle. The bit you can see is therefore only half the boat - the whole front half of the boat is under white water in the left half of the circle.

 

Bottom line, this boat is only just afloat. Maybe a foot of boat remains above the surface - and it's slightly nose down so the bow is completely submerged.

 

With a little retouch and some interpretation, via Photoshop, this is what I can come up....seems plausible. Not a lot of breathing room, below, that's for sure.

 

post-768-0-26352900-1400601062_thumb.jpg

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Seems like everyone is assuming that if the keel fell off the boat would've flipped over right away. I'm not sure that would've happened. When Rambler capsized in 2011, it took about 60 seconds from the keel falling off. It would take even longer for it to become completely inverted. A capsized dinghy doesn't invert right away, I don't see how a keel boat would, even without the keel.

 

not only that.., it's possible that they got off before the keel came off.

 

perhaps there came a time when the keel was still attached, but the water coming in was at a rate such that they thought the boat would sink shortly, and they launched the life raft while it was still at least a somewhat orderly affair.

 

then, instead of the boat flooding and sinking, the keel fell to the bottom and the boat turtled.

 

either way.., i don't believe that there is any way to confidently say they are not floating in the raft somewhere.

 

i don't even think you can say it to a 75% confidence level.., and so further searching is clearly warranted.

50 mph wind and 20 ft waves could turn a boat over wo a keel pretty quick.

Hypothetically, if a 12 person liferaft was predeployed in those conditions for 2-4 crew- what would happen?

Hindsight learning seems to be personal survival suit, plb, vhf?

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In a world that has oceans full of crap, it seems odd to make a break-away keel (assuming I read that post about the keel attachment correctly.

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Seems like everyone is assuming that if the keel fell off the boat would've flipped over right away. I'm not sure that would've happened. When Rambler capsized in 2011, it took about 60 seconds from the keel falling off. It would take even longer for it to become completely inverted. A capsized dinghy doesn't invert right away, I don't see how a keel boat would, even without the keel.

depends on the boat. while im not saying you are wrong, i doubt that from the time a keel broke off to the mast hitting the water would have been 60 seconds for rambler, i think you may have misread something.

 

Some dinghies invert right away, some dont. It depends on a lot of factors like how high out of the water the boat floats, whether the mast is sealed, how heavy the mast is, etc. It also depends on how much sail is up - a dinghy with no sails up turtles almost instantly - ever had a a dinghy capsize on a tow? These guys were reefed, maybe with storm sails up, there would not have been much resistance holding the mast up to balance the weight of the mast pulling down.

 

not trying to be a dick, but I did look it up ;).

"

RAMBLER 100, a 100 FT canting keel racing sloop with a crew of 21 participating in the 2011 Rolex Fastnet Race, rounded Fastnet Rock at 1717 local time (BST) and turned southwest for the Pantaenius offset mark (7 miles away) into 23-25 knot headwinds and a sizable (2m) short sharp sea. Shortly after the turn her canting keel snapped off just below the hull exit causing her to capsize, in less than 60 seconds. "

http://about.ussailing.org/AssetFactory.aspx?vid=16967

 

I think it would depend alot on wave state too, if you got a big wave right when the keel fell off and it tossed the boat over that would've been instantaneous... Really hope they find these guys, for their and their family's sake, but also to figure out what happened.

not trying to be a dick either - it says "less than 60 seconds", while that implies it was longer than 1, it does not mean it took a full minute to layover. its inconsequential - different boat and probably different conditions. Rambler has a lot more form stability than a bene.

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Seems like everyone is assuming that if the keel fell off the boat would've flipped over right away. I'm not sure that would've happened. When Rambler capsized in 2011, it took about 60 seconds from the keel falling off. It would take even longer for it to become completely inverted. A capsized dinghy doesn't invert right away, I don't see how a keel boat would, even without the keel.

 

not only that.., it's possible that they got off before the keel came off.

 

perhaps there came a time when the keel was still attached, but the water coming in was at a rate such that they thought the boat would sink shortly, and they launched the life raft while it was still at least a somewhat orderly affair.

 

then, instead of the boat flooding and sinking, the keel fell to the bottom and the boat turtled.

 

either way.., i don't believe that there is any way to confidently say they are not floating in the raft somewhere.

 

i don't even think you can say it to a 75% confidence level.., and so further searching is clearly warranted.

50 mph wind and 20 ft waves could turn a boat over wo a keel pretty quick.

Hypothetically, if a 12 person liferaft was predeployed in those conditions for 2-4 crew- what would happen?

Hindsight learning seems to be personal survival suit, plb, vhf?

 

i didn't say maybe they "pre-deployed" it..

 

i said maybe they thought the boat was sinking, deployed the life raft, and got off the boat...

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To all of the other "I know better than anybodies" out there: The US Coast Guard is a rather experienced organization that makes search and rescue at sea one of their priorities. They have been doing this a long time and they have developed protocols and procedures weighing many factors to maximize their search and rescue efforts. Sure, in the best of all possible worlds, the Coasties would rush helos, planes, and ships to the area of any maritime disaster and spend as many hours, days, weeks or months necessary until every survivor or body was recovered from the scene. Then they would employ submersible vehicles, if necessary, to find and raise the wreckage to definitively ascertain the cause of the problem to help prevent recurrence. What, preposterous you say? No more preposterous than some of the claims and charges people are leveling at the Coast Guard in this incident. A boat capsized and possibly lives were lost. It happens, it's sad and get over it. To make some of the claims that have been presented on this forum is doing a big disservice to the Coast Guard and the individuals that risk their lives on a daily basis. Please take your suspicions and preposterous statements and theories to Black Helicopter Anarchy. And another thing, why is it in todays slacktivist, it's easier to talk shit on an internet forum society we live in today that people start a petition for every little thing. Behold, the power of the petition! Other than providing the illusory satisfaction that "There, I did something", what good does putting your name in electrons on a website accomplish? Nothing? Yeah I thought so. But hey, you did something, right? I bet it helps those who sign such useless petitions sleep better at night.

 

Agreed. SAR guys want to save everyone, and unless you've been one, you can't possibly know how difficult it is for them to call off a search. It is their driving force and they risk their lives to do it.

 

Searchers begin by building a "best case" scenario and work from there. They are assuming you have done everything right. But as we all know, even when you do everything right, sometimes it still isn't enough.

 

Coasties make these judgments every day. There is a finite amount of resources, and continuing a search that is likely pointless puts other people at risk.

 

I genuinely hope for the best for these guys, but I'm not optimistic. I am not reading much into the resumed search.

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I think the really dark area is the saildrive leg, There's a bigger copy of the photo here, looks L shaped. Memory of walking past a few 40.7s on the hard says that the prop is quite far forward.article-2632543-1DFEF4A600000578-656_102This photo, which I think is from Antigua seems to show dark grey antifoul too.asw14-3045_CheekiRafiki.jpg

I totally agree with Firebar on his analysis of the photo. This hull is a lot more sunk than it looks... Follow Firebar's logic and add my interpretation for a second:

 

The rudder is the black object on the right. The smaller black L-shaped object is the saildrive leg. The grey area is bottom paint and it's a funny shape and lighter color because white foam is lapping right up to that level. If you look closely, I think you maybe able to make out an extended outline of the hull arcing off to the left which puts the bow at about 10o'clock and only just inside the yellow circle. The bit you can see is therefore only half the boat - the whole front half of the boat is under white water in the left half of the circle.

 

Bottom line, this boat is only just afloat. Maybe a foot of boat remains above the surface - and it's slightly nose down so the bow is completely submerged.

I would also suggest that if the keel were attached the hull would be on the bottom by now. And even if the hull had enough foatation in it to remain at water level it would be bottom down not bottom up. No keel and its just plastic foatsom bobbing around at the surface.

 

It would make perfect sense that the keel is no longer attached to the boat.

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Seems like everyone is assuming that if the keel fell off the boat would've flipped over right away. I'm not sure that would've happened. When Rambler capsized in 2011, it took about 60 seconds from the keel falling off. It would take even longer for it to become completely inverted. A capsized dinghy doesn't invert right away, I don't see how a keel boat would, even without the keel.

depends on the boat. while im not saying you are wrong, i doubt that from the time a keel broke off to the mast hitting the water would have been 60 seconds for rambler, i think you may have misread something.

 

Some dinghies invert right away, some dont. It depends on a lot of factors like how high out of the water the boat floats, whether the mast is sealed, how heavy the mast is, etc. It also depends on how much sail is up - a dinghy with no sails up turtles almost instantly - ever had a a dinghy capsize on a tow? These guys were reefed, maybe with storm sails up, there would not have been much resistance holding the mast up to balance the weight of the mast pulling down.

The crew reported taking on water in their last communication - any decent level of water in the hull at the time of the keel finally exiting the scene would contribute to the boat rolling over the second the keel let go. The only way the crew may have kept the boat right side up is if they knew that the keel was going and they shed the mast in an attempt to keep the hull right side up when the keel let go. I highly doubt any racer cruiser production hull will give you enough time to drop the rig in rough conditions once you realize that the keel is peeling the hull skin laminate free and getting ready to drop off.

 

This has been discussed at length with some prior losses similar to this where the keel tore free and in every case regardless of collision history etc the keel was mechanically fastened to the hull skin between the grid stringers meaning the whole point of the structural grid in the hull had the largest most stress full object unattached and simply bolted to the hull skin between the grid stringers.

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In a world that has oceans full of crap, it seems odd to make a break-away keel (assuming I read that post about the keel attachment correctly.

 

If you scroll to the bottom of this page, you can see the 40.7 keel attachment. The pics are small so they are not the best, but if you look closely I think you can see the keel bolts on top of the keel with no stub. This jibes with my recollection of it's attachment.

 

http://www.yachtworld.com/customoffshore/customoffshore_6.html

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To all of the other "I know better than anybodies" out there: The US Coast Guard is a rather experienced organization that makes search and rescue at sea one of their priorities. They have been doing this a long time and they have developed protocols and procedures weighing many factors to maximize their search and rescue efforts. Sure, in the best of all possible worlds, the Coasties would rush helos, planes, and ships to the area of any maritime disaster and spend as many hours, days, weeks or months necessary until every survivor or body was recovered from the scene. Then they would employ submersible vehicles, if necessary, to find and raise the wreckage to definitively ascertain the cause of the problem to help prevent recurrence. What, preposterous you say? No more preposterous than some of the claims and charges people are leveling at the Coast Guard in this incident. A boat capsized and possibly lives were lost. It happens, it's sad and get over it. To make some of the claims that have been presented on this forum is doing a big disservice to the Coast Guard and the individuals that risk their lives on a daily basis. Please take your suspicions and preposterous statements and theories to Black Helicopter Anarchy. And another thing, why is it in todays slacktivist, it's easier to talk shit on an internet forum society we live in today that people start a petition for every little thing. Behold, the power of the petition! Other than providing the illusory satisfaction that "There, I did something", what good does putting your name in electrons on a website accomplish? Nothing? Yeah I thought so. But hey, you did something, right? I bet it helps those who sign such useless petitions sleep better at night.

Agreed. SAR guys want to save everyone, and unless you've been one, you can't possibly know how difficult it is for them to call off a search. It is their driving force and they risk their lives to do it.

 

Searchers begin by building a "best case" scenario and work from there. They are assuming you have done everything right. But as we all know, even when you do everything right, sometimes it still isn't enough.

 

Coasties make these judgments every day. There is a finite amount of resources, and continuing a search that is likely pointless puts other people at risk.

 

I genuinely hope for the best for these guys, but I'm not optimistic. I am not reading much into the resumed search.

I read the resumed search as political expediency. This administration hasn't done a lot of friendship building and the US/UK relationship is decidedly chillier tha the past. A British crew and an {sarcasm} upwelling of outrage at the callous disregard with which the USCG stopped the search{end sarcasm} makes this an easy knee jerk for the White House.

 

Again, sympathy for the sailors, family and friends. Hope the renewed search finds something conclusive. If they are in a raft and found, then that's great. If, as I suspect, the search starts back up and finds nothing, then should we crowd source a time limit?

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In a world that has oceans full of crap, it seems odd to make a break-away keel (assuming I read that post about the keel attachment correctly.

 

If you scroll to the bottom of this page, you can see the 40.7 keel attachment. The pics are small so they are not the best, but if you look closely I think you can see the keel bolts on top of the keel with no stub. This jibes with my recollection of it's attachment.

 

http://www.yachtworld.com/customoffshore/customoffshore_6.html

Few years back while boat shopping I was looking at production boats and how the keels were being attached to the flat bottom hulls of the more modern production boats. The newer production boats really don't have much of a sump or heavily built up structural hull sump area where the keels are attached, The heavily built sumps have slowly morphed into a flat hull bottom or very close too it where the keels have been bolted between the hull stringers I recall reading in another forum some place when the A&M boat lost its keel that a few folks with pretty good build back ground explained that in many cases the production builders consider the bonding strength between the stringers and the solid laminate hull area to be acceptable to support the keel. However as several pretty savy materials folks pointed out cycled loads over time from the keel can dramatically impact the bonding and glass structure where the keel is bolted. Add any minor lay up flaws or bonding agent flaws that impact strength even slightly and you have a added risk of the hull strenth vs keel loads not being up to the task especially in harsh rough conditions.

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To all of the other "I know better than anybodies" out there: The US Coast Guard is a rather experienced organization that makes search and rescue at sea one of their priorities. They have been doing this a long time and they have developed protocols and procedures weighing many factors to maximize their search and rescue efforts. Sure, in the best of all possible worlds, the Coasties would rush helos, planes, and ships to the area of any maritime disaster and spend as many hours, days, weeks or months necessary until every survivor or body was recovered from the scene. Then they would employ submersible vehicles, if necessary, to find and raise the wreckage to definitively ascertain the cause of the problem to help prevent recurrence. What, preposterous you say? No more preposterous than some of the claims and charges people are leveling at the Coast Guard in this incident. A boat capsized and possibly lives were lost. It happens, it's sad and get over it. To make some of the claims that have been presented on this forum is doing a big disservice to the Coast Guard and the individuals that risk their lives on a daily basis. Please take your suspicions and preposterous statements and theories to Black Helicopter Anarchy. And another thing, why is it in todays slacktivist, it's easier to talk shit on an internet forum society we live in today that people start a petition for every little thing. Behold, the power of the petition! Other than providing the illusory satisfaction that "There, I did something", what good does putting your name in electrons on a website accomplish? Nothing? Yeah I thought so. But hey, you did something, right? I bet it helps those who sign such useless petitions sleep better at night.

Agreed. SAR guys want to save everyone, and unless you've been one, you can't possibly know how difficult it is for them to call off a search. It is their driving force and they risk their lives to do it.

 

Searchers begin by building a "best case" scenario and work from there. They are assuming you have done everything right. But as we all know, even when you do everything right, sometimes it still isn't enough.

 

Coasties make these judgments every day. There is a finite amount of resources, and continuing a search that is likely pointless puts other people at risk.

 

I genuinely hope for the best for these guys, but I'm not optimistic. I am not reading much into the resumed search.

I read the resumed search as political expediency. This administration hasn't done a lot of friendship building and the US/UK relationship is decidedly chillier tha the past. A British crew and an {sarcasm} upwelling of outrage at the callous disregard with which the USCG stopped the search{end sarcasm} makes this an easy knee jerk for the White House.

 

Again, sympathy for the sailors, family and friends. Hope the renewed search finds something conclusive. If they are in a raft and found, then that's great. If, as I suspect, the search starts back up and finds nothing, then should we crowd source a time limit?

 

I've been discussing this with a friend who works for the CCG. When I told him that the search had been resumed, he had a one word response: politics.

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I really hope they find these guys and these sailors come back and demand that production builders re evaluate how they build these boats. I only know of one major production builder today that mechanically fastens keels to the physical structure grid inside the boat. There may be more doing it today than last time I researched it but at that time Elan was the only big production builder doing this.

 

I really like the idea of the swing keel, and rudder posts behind a proper bulkhead approach that many of the smaller more performance focused builders are doing like Pogo. The swing keels sadly have far far far more structural effort going into the hull than the fixed keel boats today. I know which I would prefere to have if I were dropping big money on a boat I were doing lots of open ocean miles on.

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The UK Prime Minister is starting to get a little hassle, as it was his government that introduced cutbacks which led to the loss of the Orion Squadron from RAF Kinloss.

Nimrod, not P3 Orion

 

I agree that one would make the life raft ready in theory. RORC rules say you have to get it to lifelines or launched in 15 seconds - I'm not sure getting it out on deck would be a great choice as you'd have to fix it on well in the event of a breaking wave or capsize. Towing it has the same issue I think.

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Take a breather raley. I've sailed on Merchant Ships for many years in a variety of conditions. Your statements about the ship's actions were wrong and ignorant, get over it.

i just wish I could be at sea, doing the ARC regatta, and change my course to find these guys.

What about you, "Sailman" from "Portsmouth, RI", did you ever sail around the real Portsmouth, in the Solent, to see what tide and current means?

You are probably much safer and busy posting insults at people and things you don't know, your dinghy shoved up your ass, waiting for the nice breeze to come.

Hey "Sailman", just give me a break. Two of my mates were sailing this boat, and while much more qualified/fit/experienced than you, they are probably struggling for life at the moment, so I am just happy researches start again. Just keep on wanking on your Laser Pico. Your ignorance about seamanship is a disgrace, and unfortunately getting toxic. Keep on getting wasted with your fellows philipino/russian crew, drunk on watch on big ships, broadcasting porn or insults on emergency VHF channels, and I touch wood I'll never cross your path on any ocean (which seems very unlikely).

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Take a breather raley. I've sailed on Merchant Ships for many years in a variety of conditions. Your statements about the ship's actions were wrong and ignorant, get over it.

i just wish I could be at sea, doing the ARC regatta, and change my course to find these guys.

What about you, "Sailman" from "Portsmouth, RI", did you ever sail around the real Portsmouth, in the Solent, to see what tide and current means?

You are probably much safer and busy posting insults at people and things you don't know, your dinghy shoved up your ass, waiting for the nice breeze to come.

Hey "Sailman", just give me a break. Two of my mates were sailing this boat, and while much more qualified/fit/experienced than you, they are probably struggling for life at the moment, so I am just happy researches start again. Just keep on wanking on your Laser Pico. Your ignorance about seamanship is a disgrace, and unfortunately getting toxic. Keep on getting wasted with your fellows philipino/russian crew, drunk on watch on big ships, broadcasting porn or insults on emergency VHF channels, and I touch wood I'll never cross your path on any ocean (which seems very unlikely).

Sorry to hear about your friends. Now stop being a douchebag.

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I really hope they find these guys and these sailors come back and demand that production builders re evaluate how they build these boats. I only know of one major production builder today that mechanically fastens keels to the physical structure grid inside the boat. There may be more doing it today than last time I researched it but at that time Elan was the only big production builder doing this.

 

I really like the idea of the swing keel, and rudder posts behind a proper bulkhead approach that many of the smaller more performance focused builders are doing like Pogo. The swing keels sadly have far far far more structural effort going into the hull than the fixed keel boats today. I know which I would prefere to have if I were dropping big money on a boat I were doing lots of open ocean miles on.

X-Yachts. King Marine for the King 40 while it was briefly produced as a production boat.

Elan actually copied X-Yachts who had been doing this for more than a decade.

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The pictures of the inverted yacht look frighteningly like that of Moquini.

http://www.sail.ie/moquini.htm

 

The last paragraph pertaining to the very limited EPIRB hit may also be pertinent to this event.

 

I delivered a 40.7 up the CA coast in 35+ and 12-15 seas in 2007. The boat was flexing so much it popped the deck panel forward of the companionway hatch (under the vang) and started shipping water. It was concerning enough that I parked it in Morro Bay for two weeks until the gale dissipated. I thought the boat rather underbuilt for going upwind offshore...but I've been a bit spoiled by the upwind abilities of my Baltic.

 

BTW, to whomever made the comment earlier about the wx "appearing to nice", our weather patterns create a squash zone along the coast where it will nuke...full on gale force winds in sunblock 100 skies...CAVU.

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The UK Prime Minister is starting to get a little hassle, as it was his government that introduced cutbacks which led to the loss of the Orion Squadron from RAF Kinloss.

Nimrod, not P3 Orion

 

I agree that one would make the life raft ready in theory. RORC rules say you have to get it to lifelines or launched in 15 seconds - I'm not sure getting it out on deck would be a great choice as you'd have to fix it on well in the event of a breaking wave or capsize. Towing it has the same issue I think.

I'm a PacCup safety inspector. If the raft weighs more than 88 lbs (you convert it to kilos, stones, or whatever), it needs to be stored on deck. On a 40.7 that means its stuffed under the helm seat. If it was BELOW DECKS, there was absolutely no way to get the raft out of the boat once a capsize had begun. Not a 12 person raft, not in gale conditions, and definitely not on her side.

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Put the pipe down. If these people were your friends why are you whining on a forum?

 

 

Take a breather raley. I've sailed on Merchant Ships for many years in a variety of conditions. Your statements about the ship's actions were wrong and ignorant, get over it.

i just wish I could be at sea, doing the ARC regatta, and change my course to find these guys.

What about you, "Sailman" from "Portsmouth, RI", did you ever sail around the real Portsmouth, in the Solent, to see what tide and current means?

You are probably much safer and busy posting insults at people and things you don't know, your dinghy shoved up your ass, waiting for the nice breeze to come.

Hey "Sailman", just give me a break. Two of my mates were sailing this boat, and while much more qualified/fit/experienced than you, they are probably struggling for life at the moment, so I am just happy researches start again. Just keep on wanking on your Laser Pico. Your ignorance about seamanship is a disgrace, and unfortunately getting toxic. Keep on getting wasted with your fellows philipino/russian crew, drunk on watch on big ships, broadcasting porn or insults on emergency VHF channels, and I touch wood I'll never cross your path on any ocean (which seems very unlikely).

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Good evening,

This incident reminds me of the Moquini incident off the coast of South Africa in 2005.

Moquini was sailing in an ocean race from Mauritius to Durban. The boat lost it's keel and the entire crew lost their lives. The boat was found upside down about 5 months later and recovered. This enabled a thorough investigation of the hull construction to be done. Sadly in the Moquini incident a number of issues were highlighted. Bad workmanship in the lamination of the hull, deviating from design specs in the lay-up, incorrect torque on keel bolts and not regularly and properly inspecting of the hull and keel.

The investigation also highlighted some serious negligence by the crew for such matters as life raft stowed down below, EPIRB incorrectly registered etc.

Google "yacht moquini " and some pic will come up.

Or Google "moquini what went wrong", for quite a comprehensive news article.

 

When Moquini went missing the SA government allocated a lot of resources to the air search. When all efforts failed to find the boat or crew the SA sailing community which is very small, quickly started a fund to keep a private funded air search going. The funds poured in, so much that there was a surplus by the time the search was finally called off.

 

Sailing Anarchy covered the incident well at the time too.

 

I would think that if a relative poorer country like SouthAfrica can keep an air search going for a number of days, and our small sailing community can raise enough money to keep search planes going, the UK and USA communities could have done the same both by government and privately.

 

Having said all the above, I do hold hope for the Cheeki crew to be found save.

Regards,

Multisail.

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The UK Prime Minister is starting to get a little hassle, as it was his government that introduced cutbacks which led to the loss of the Orion Squadron from RAF Kinloss.

Nimrod, not P3 Orion

 

I agree that one would make the life raft ready in theory. RORC rules say you have to get it to lifelines or launched in 15 seconds - I'm not sure getting it out on deck would be a great choice as you'd have to fix it on well in the event of a breaking wave or capsize. Towing it has the same issue I think.

I'm a PacCup safety inspector. If the raft weighs more than 88 lbs (you convert it to kilos, stones, or whatever), it needs to be stored on deck. On a 40.7 that means its stuffed under the helm seat. If it was BELOW DECKS, there was absolutely no way to get the raft out of the boat once a capsize had begun. Not a 12 person raft, not in gale conditions, and definitely not on her side.

I was thinking the same thing regarding life raft. Having chartered in the Med pretty much all the Euro sailors store the life raft in an aft locker or some place in the cabin which I have never really understood. Given no way your getting to it if you need it in a hurry.

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The pictures of the inverted yacht look frighteningly like that of Moquini.

http://www.sail.ie/moquini.htm

 

The last paragraph pertaining to the very limited EPIRB hit may also be pertinent to this event.

 

I delivered a 40.7 up the CA coast in 35+ and 12-15 seas in 2007. The boat was flexing so much it popped the deck panel forward of the companionway hatch (under the vang) and started shipping water. It was concerning enough that I parked it in Morro Bay for two weeks until the gale dissipated. I thought the boat rather underbuilt for going upwind offshore...but I've been a bit spoiled by the upwind abilities of my Baltic.

 

BTW, to whomever made the comment earlier about the wx "appearing to nice", our weather patterns create a squash zone along the coast where it will nuke...full on gale force winds in sunblock 100 skies...CAVU.

Some of the most amazing conditions I've seen were just off the CA coast for sure a test of boat design going either way. NOAA captian I raced J/24's with for many years covered the CA fisheries area for a number of years on their NOAA boat. He said conditions he saw along the CA coast and northern CA- WA stretch was right up there with some of the stuff he experienced running the CG 80's up in Alaska during the Crab season. He said our coast was no joke when it came to the conditions that can crop up on a very regular basis.

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I think it will be important to know if this vessel had a hard grounding this season.

 

Since the cargo ship was able to find the overturned hull, it means they had a pretty accurate starting search position. And if the USCG had a good starting datum and did not find anything, then there was nothing to find. They are very good at SAR. Sadly and unfortunately these guys are dead.

 

Condolences to family and friends.

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Re: sump no/sump question:

 

A big cut out in the hull diaphragm to accommodate a sump might also not be all that structurally sound. We've all seen boats with sump - keel joint issues.

 

Re: connect to stringers or connect to hull diaphragm:

 

All depends on factors of safety in design. It is really easy & cheap to make a pane 'over' stiff in the keel area - add more glass.

 

 

Finally - forgive the thread hijack. Pleased to see the petition had the desired effect. Prayers to all involved.

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Re: sump no/sump question:

 

A big cut out in the hull diaphragm to accommodate a sump might also not be all that structurally sound. We've all seen boats with sump - keel joint issues.

 

Re: connect to stringers or connect to hull diaphragm:

 

All depends on factors of safety in design. It is really easy & cheap to make a pane 'over' stiff in the keel area - add more glass.

 

 

Finally - forgive the thread hijack. Pleased to see the petition had the desired effect. Prayers to all involved.

Sump failure vs hull skin failure both are due to the same cause - lack of addiquate structure.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Hard+grounding+keel+removed&client=firefox-a&hs=mwB&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=eap7U-25Oc68oQSp7oD4BA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ&biw=1272&bih=935#q=Keel+removal+and+repair&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&tbm=isch&facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=rhyH4WrcSUkLaM%253A%3BAlj3o0EcjPc5EM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fi565.photobucket.com%252Falbums%252Fss91%252Ftommays%252FJ120keel.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fforums.sbo.sailboatowners.com%252Fprintthread.php%253Ft%253D125789%3B640%3B480

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Sadly, the likely scenario was:

Leak, hard to find the source, but pumps keeping up OK.

Keep searching for source of leak. If you have tried when there is a fair amount of water in a boat, you will know how hard it is. Looks likely the leak was in keel area.

Yes--- and there was time for an operator to call in that they were taking on water. As soon as that call ended, ANY reasonable person is getting the life raft on deck, loading it with all available supplies, life jackets, hopefully some dry bags loaded with food and warm clothes… there was time to make a call-in so there was time to get the raft on deck and maybe fully inflated to be ready for the worst. I cannot imagine how shitty it was out there but their survival for two days should not be ruled out.

 

 

Last and certainly not least, a little rant: 1 sailor, in the information about you, you state you "Sail Lasers on a small toilet bowl of a lake." Thank you for sharing that vital piece of information which will make the job of ridiculing your post so much easier. You state ANY reasonable person in the tragic situation would be on deck loading up the fully inflated life raft with all the necessary items to ensure a safe, snug float until rescuers arrived. Have you ever been on a boat bigger than a Laser? Have you ever seen a 12 man life raft?

You make a good point here, in that it would be difficult (but possible) to get a raft ready to go. The manner in which you make your point is crude and without relevance to the larger matter at hand.

 

I won't regale you with my stories from the high seas, other than to say YES I have offshore experience, been through a dis-masting, have had two occasions to get life rafts on deck AND continue to believe it is POSSIBLE (what other requirement exists?) that they had a raft on deck, supplies in a ditch bag, and PFD's ready to go when shit got ugly. No, I do not think this one ends well but haven't ruled it out.

 

Let's stay focused on the GREAT news that while unlikely, a recovery remains POSSIBlE and therefore justifies a closer look.

 

Thanks for the unfounded insults, they added a lot to the discussion.

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I totally agree with Firebar on his analysis of the photo. This hull is a lot more sunk than it looks... Follow Firebar's logic and add my interpretation for a second:

 

The rudder is the black object on the right. The smaller black L-shaped object is the saildrive leg. The grey area is bottom paint and it's a funny shape and lighter color because white foam is lapping right up to that level. If you look closely, I think you maybe able to make out an extended outline of the hull arcing off to the left which puts the bow at about 10o'clock and only just inside the yellow circle. The bit you can see is therefore only half the boat - the whole front half of the boat is under white water in the left half of the circle.

 

Bottom line, this boat is only just afloat. Maybe a foot of boat remains above the surface - and it's slightly nose down so the bow is completely submerged.

 

With a little retouch and some interpretation, via Photoshop, this is what I can come up....seems plausible. Not a lot of breathing room, below, that's for sure.

 

attachicon.gifben40closeupV2.jpg

 

Good work! Both of you.

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Beneteau keels:

 

I'm no apologist for Beneteaus; but I did sell over 300 new and used in a 10 year period.

 

Beneteau build far too many boats to under engineer their keel structures, they would be just building in a huge liability issue.

 

I know of two loose keels in that time and both were caused by under torqued keel bolts when the keels where attached. One boat had been raced hard offshore for several years and then had it's keel removed and reattached; within weeks they had a loose keel issue. The second loose keel came when we used a different yard to commission a boat and it was obvious they had not consulted the Beneteau factory's specification on keel bolt tightening.

 

Once a keel is loose I'm thinking the failure (from metal fatigue in the bolts) would come more quickly then expected.

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There should be significant redundancy in the design - like a factor of safety of 10 instead of the typical 2-4 factor. This is to account for sloppy yards down the road. Keel bolt torque is BTW not a exact science. Plenty of rough assumptions and guesswork there.

 

Bene has a deep bench of Engjneering talent. so one could feel confident the failure is unlikely to be a design flaw.

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Firstly....... I'm well aware that all this is pure speculation from my armchair, but I was thinking....

I have done a lot of miles on 40.7s, inshore and offshore, and occasionally had them leak on me. This was an experienced crew, who had a problem big enough to report in and divert course for the Azores. Assuming they were then occupied by sorting out the boat, trying to make it as safe as possible and find/stop the leak - they had a little time (but we dont know how much). In my experience it would be logical to assume that 4 experienced yachtsmen in the middle of the atlantic in heavy weather and in a boat taking on serious amounts of water would at least briefly talk of a plan for if/when things go really wrong. The liferaft on the 40.7 is usually at the transom under the helmsmans bench and a straightforward launch. All this points to a reasonable assumption that they could make it to the raft, even if the boat was knocked down after keel failure - or rather this possibility certainly shouldnt be written off - with 4 lives at stake give them the benefit of the doubt.

Like I said - speculation - but the USCG must have had good reason to doubt this and stop looking, or have I missed something?

Very glad they are looking again - I only hope it is good news to come.

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I can see how the crew might have been preoccupied with finding the leak and might have been caught out by a sudden capsize. True world racing yachts like open imoca 60's have the liferaft access in the transom so it can still be deployed when the boat is inverted. Maube one for the regulators to discuss for all offshore yachts. There is a chance that one of the arc fleet might find the hull and see if the liferaft is still under the seat

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There isn't much room between the forward edge of the helmsman's seat and the wheel. Once that boat went on her side, deployment of a raft from that storage position would be EXTREMELY difficult.

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From memory, please do correct me if I'm wrong, doesn't the helmsman's seat lift out?

 

This bit is probably TL:DR.

My thoughts on the restarted search go something along the lines of this:

It's highly improbable that there's anyone in the hull, it's probably buoyed up by air in the aft cabins. I think its floating along the line I marked on here.

EMyUwiK.png

I think that the USCG have the best expertise in searches in the area and that if they say chances are minimal, the chances probably are minimal.

However, there is still a chance, there is evidence that some of the crew were probably trying to do all they could to consolidate their position post capsize (PLBs), or maybe left the boat pre capsize. So it makes sense to keep looking, after all no one wants to risk abandoning anyone out there.

With the political pressure and that petition with 10s of thousands of signatures, it makes good sense to restart a search, if they do find the crew (and I hope above all that they do) its a huge coup, even if they don't there are efforts being made and no one can accuse anyone of giving up. I really do hope that they're found!

On the other hand what the hell do I know, I'm sitting here safe, warm and dry.

 

It's been a strange experience here, I'm in my 20s and live in Southampton, and I've done a bit of work in the 40.7 charter fleet. Friends of mine were asked to do this delivery and others knew the crew that are doing it. I think that the majority of people who sail in the Solent will have a rather sober time. I know that I've been following every scrap of news I can find.

 

I hope that the crew of Cheeki Rafiki come home safe.

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I doubt the boat sat on its side for very long in the rough conditions add the water intrusion as it rolled, unless the crew already had the life raft loose on deck or possibly even in process of being deployed if they had any warning that the keel was letting go it would be pretty much impossible to get the canister loose once the boat was inverted.

 

All I think we can hope for is that they had enough warning that the issue was far more serious than a cracked thru hull fitting or similar typical issue most of us think of, and they moved their efforts to the raft plan before the boat rolled. I recall a number of pretty experience folks chatting on a couple of other threads involving keel loss. Most of us I recall would have a pretty hard time thinking that the fucking keel is letting go given thats just not something your normal sailors typically think of when things start to go wrong.

 

The J/80 guys in SF that lost the keel outside the GG even after the boat rolled and they could see that the keel parted with the hull said that they still were having a tough time processing that the damn keel fell off the boat. Those guys were lucky one of them swam under and snagged the water proof hand held out of a sheet bag. The only way they could stay on the upturned hull was hanging onto the rudder they managed to get a call out and got picked up.

 

Had they not been found, pretty sure none of the really experienced SF ocean guys would have ever thought the cause was due to the keel parting ways with the boat. It's just not something any of us typically think of happening.

 

Fingers crossed they are found waiting for a pickup.

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^^ the uscg spent 2 days looking, deploying multiple aircraft. We know they were looking in the right place. They "saturated" the search area. And yes, they are using IR in addition to visual. They concluded there was no-one alive.

 

They have proven in the past they are more than willing to go to almost any effort to save lives when they think there is a chance. The bounty case is a good example, where they went out in near hurricane conditions and found one of the crew alone in the water a mile or two from the vessel. If there was new information to check here, or a new position to search, the uscg would be the first to go.

 

I will suggest the UK sailing community criticism of the uscg effort is not well thought out and unwarranted, and quite frankly disappointing. The suggestions that they would have searched longer for Americans and only stopped because they were Brits is insulting to the service.

 

But now they are being asked to fly a 1000 miles out, conduct a search pattern, and a 1000 miles back when their experience tells them there is no-one alive. And to make it worse, after several days, the "likely drift cone" to search is now very big. If they were not found in the first 2 days, it is 10 times less likely now. They will do their professional best in this renewed search, but it has only been ordered for "political theater", and I truly hope they do not have a plane go down or an accident happen during it.

 

I don't know when the yachting community started expecting SAR airplane search patterns 1000miles out at sea as due course. It was certainly not the case when I started ocean sailing. Now we are demanding they continue that 1000 mile search even when their most conservative estimates say there is no-one alive. We, as the offshore sailing community, might want to consider whether that sense of expectation has gotten out of hand.

 

I would like to know if this sail boat grounded in the past two seasons, and when/where the keel was last removed/bolts torqued? Those seem to me to be the pertinent areas to focus on now - why did this happen?

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Estar, I'm wondering if we need an ORC rule change regarding the storageposition of liferafts? Even though liferafts under 88 lbs may be carried belw decks, they have to be able to put on deck (not actually deployed) in 15 sec. I think if you were to put a stopwatch on a catastrophic failure, at least 30 seconds will be consumed by total WTF chaos. Depending upon the orientation of the yacht, i.e. not on her lines, it may be physically impossible to even reach the raft (e.g. Stashed in a lazarette) let alone deploy it. Is it time that the community adopts a "ready to deploy" policy?

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^^ transom mounting is the answer. On the cockpit sole or deck is second choice. And buried in the laz, even if in theory accessible in 15secs is a really poor/distant third choice. Owners should be educated about that. However, It is above my pay grade if that should be required by the ORCs. There is unfortunately a trade-off, which is the more exposed the raft, the more likely it will fail (inflator corrosion, or a puncture, or the tie line UV damaged, etc).

 

A second area for discussion is when to deploy and when to abandon. In the bounty case they were waiting "to step up into the raft" and that proved to be too late as the vessel capsized and the rig caught a couple people in the water. This vessel may also have capsized quickly, going from a state of "leaking" to upside down suddenly, offering no time to "step up into the raft".

 

Sometimes these things happen slowly, but recently they seem to be sudden incidents - Aegeon and LSC and rambler were all pretty sudden shambles.

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Even if the liferaft were stored in the cockpit, as the boat rolled over the crew was probably busy merely hanging on. And a liferaft stored on deck would have to be securely lashed to prevent being washed overboard. It would take diving under the overturned yacht, difficult with a PFD on, to cut it loose. Hope diver doesn't become tangled in lines or get injured by loose items like floorboards etc washing out of cabin. I'm not sure what the answer is, except to make sure the damn keel doesn't fall off in the first place. An upright boat makes deploying a raft a hell of a lot easier.

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^^ as I said, transom mounting (so that it can be released even from a capsized vessel) is the answer.

 

But . . . I would rather we figure out a way so the keels don't fall off.

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Problem with transom mounting is that not all boats can accomodate it. Kind of has to be designed in from the beginning.

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I think the really dark area is the saildrive leg, There's a bigger copy of the photo here, looks L shaped. Memory of walking past a few 40.7s on the hard says that the prop is quite far forward.

 

article-2632543-1DFEF4A600000578-656_102

 

This photo, which I think is from Antigua seems to show dark grey antifoul too.

 

asw14-3045_CheekiRafiki.jpg

 

We are told the conditions "50 mph winds and 20 ft seas" played a part in the decision to call off the search.

 

They were reported to be in difficulty on Friday night and the photo was reported to have been taken on Saturday.

 

Am I the only one wondering where those "50 mph winds and 20 ft seas" are in the photo?

My guess is that the 40.7 is in the lee of the container ship. That would make things look an awful lot calmer.

 

If you think about your guess,

 

We're told the container ship is traveling at 15 knots at the time the photo was taken. That's 1,520 feet per minute

 

We're also told that the container ship is 1,000 feet long.

 

So assuming the above is true, then we know that any lee provided by the container ship to the area of water shown in the picture, will last a little less than 40 seconds - nowhere near enough time for seas stirred up by "50mph winds" to settle down to anything close to what is shown in the picture.

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There should be significant redundancy in the design - like a factor of safety of 10 instead of the typical 2-4 factor. This is to account for sloppy yards down the road. Keel bolt torque is BTW not a exact science. Plenty of rough assumptions and guesswork there.

Bene has a deep bench of Engjneering talent. so one could feel confident the failure is unlikely to be a design flaw.

The problem is not the safety factor. It is in calculating the dynamic loads that you need to base those safety factors on. "Rile of thumb scantlings are generally based on years of fat keels bolted to an overbuilt sump with each bolt capable of holding the static load of the keel. Put this 8 or so bolts in tension and the subject it to bending moments in every angle of the X and Y axis. Run it aground and put them in a bit of shear. Then take them off shore and drop off a few waves at 25-30 degrees of heel...for 4-5 days.

 

For more modern performance oriented boats, you narrow the section, get rid of the sump, lower the VCG and the old rule of thumb no longer apply. IIRC, someone put a bunch OG strain gauges and accelerometers on a maxi canter a few years ago (post Rambler I think) and the loads were significantly higher than their worst case estimates.

 

Rig loads are pretty easy to calculate and, like sheets, stretch is more of an issue and ultimate strength is not generally an issue. Pure strength, fatigue or static is a lot harder because load predictions are crazy hard. ABYC and CE standards and the inspectors and engineers needed to meet those standards really fall back on rules of thumb and imprecise load estimates.

 

There are ways to install keels that don't rely on bolts in tension and a few square inches of resin starved layup to last but they are expensive to build. We see a lot of keel failures (and for most of us, one is one too many) but in the big scheme of things, it's not a lot. It will take underwriters and certification authorities to demand engineering standards that are a lot more robust than we have today to drive a change. Most boats out there are fine for their intended purpose but in section, VCG and attachment, we have pushed to the edge and it only take a chain of a couple of events to cause failure. In 1992, Mike Plant died after an iffy design (bulb attached by bolts threaded into a pale bonded to the bottom of the fin) had two soft groundings in mud and then ran into rough weather on a translant. When she was ultimately found inverted, the bulb was gone and the threaded plate that the bolts were set into had separated from the fin. We haven't learned a lot since then.

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Problem with transom mounting is that not all boats can accomodate it. Kind of has to be designed in from the beginning.

Mmmmm . . . . This boat, with the swim platform, could certainly have had one.

 

Also, I guess I would say that every boat could have a transom mount - it would just look ugly as sin on some of them (like a double ender) and get in the way of other functions on others. It's a trade-off like most things on a boat.

 

Again, my preference is to focus on prevention. I would rather figure out how to stop the keels falling off, than find the perfect way to abandon ship. Some attention needs to be given to both, but I prefer the greater focus be on prevention.

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^^ the uscg spent 2 days looking, deploying multiple aircraft. We know they were looking in the right place. They "saturated" the search area. And yes, they are using IR in addition to visual. They concluded there was no-one alive.

 

They have proven in the past they are more than willing to go to almost any effort to save lives when they think there is a chance. The bounty case is a good example, where they went out in near hurricane conditions and found one of the crew alone in the water a mile or two from the vessel. If there was new information to check here, or a new position to search, the uscg would be the first to go.

 

I will suggest the UK sailing community criticism of the uscg effort is not well thought out and unwarranted, and quite frankly disappointing. The suggestions that they would have searched longer for Americans and only stopped because they were Brits is insulting to the service.

 

But now they are being asked to fly a 1000 miles out, conduct a search pattern, and a 1000 miles back when their experience tells them there is no-one alive. And to make it worse, after several days, the "likely drift cone" to search is now very big. If they were not found in the first 2 days, it is 10 times less likely now. They will do their professional best in this renewed search, but it has only been ordered for "political theater", and I truly hope they do not have a plane go down or an accident happen during it.

 

I don't know when the yachting community started expecting SAR airplane search patterns 1000miles out at sea as due course. It was certainly not the case when I started ocean sailing. Now we are demanding they continue that 1000 mile search even when their most conservative estimates say there is no-one alive. We, as the offshore sailing community, might want to consider whether that sense of expectation has gotten out of hand.

 

I would like to know if this sail boat grounded in the past two seasons, and when/where the keel was last removed/bolts torqued? Those seem to me to be the pertinent areas to focus on now - why did this happen?

 

Abso-freakin-lutely. Well done E.

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Problem with transom mounting is that not all boats can accomodate it. Kind of has to be designed in from the beginning.

Mmmmm . . . . This boat, with the swim platform, could certainly have had one.

Also, I guess I would say that every boat could have a transom mount - it would just look ugly as sin on some of them (like a double ender) and get in the way of other functions on others. It's a trade-off like most things on a boat.

Again, my preference is to focus on prevention. I would rather figure out how to stop the keels falling off, than find the perfect way to abandon ship. Some attention needs to be given to both, but I prefer the greater focus be on prevention.

I agree with you that keels are a pretty fundamental safety item. They simply shouldn't come off. Unfortunately tens of thousands of these horses have already escaped the barn. How in the hell do we determine safe vs unsafe? What do we require of our owners in certifying their keels/structure as seaworthy? It kind of boggles the mind about where to start.

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There was a keel fell off a ULDB on delivery hole from Hawaii after TransPac, they stayed upright by a miracle, and made it back to Hawaii under power. Early 70s I think? Then there was Maxi Drum losing keel and capsizing in the late 70s. Since then, keels have gotten much thinner, shorter chords, and lower CG.... and they fall off even more often. Obviously, the engineering is insufficient, and we haven't learned much.

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The problem is every abandon-ship situation is unique. A "perfect" storage location for the raft in one circumstance may be a disaster in another. If the boat is upright when abandoned, I don't think hanging over the stern wrestling a 75 lb liferaft out of a transom storage compartment is desirable.

 

 

Problem with transom mounting is that not all boats can accomodate it. Kind of has to be designed in from the beginning.

Mmmmm . . . . This boat, with the swim platform, could certainly have had one.

 

Also, I guess I would say that every boat could have a transom mount - it would just look ugly as sin on some of them (like a double ender) and get in the way of other functions on others. It's a trade-off like most things on a boat.

 

Again, my preference is to focus on prevention. I would rather figure out how to stop the keels falling off, than find the perfect way to abandon ship. Some attention needs to be given to both, but I prefer the greater focus be on prevention.

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The problem is every abandon-ship situation is unique. A "perfect" storage location for the raft in one circumstance may be a disaster in another. If the boat is upright when abandoned, I don't think hanging over the stern wrestling a 75 lb liferaft out of a transom storage compartment is desirable.

 

 

Problem with transom mounting is that not all boats can accomodate it. Kind of has to be designed in from the beginning.

Mmmmm . . . . This boat, with the swim platform, could certainly have had one.

Also, I guess I would say that every boat could have a transom mount - it would just look ugly as sin on some of them (like a double ender) and get in the way of other functions on others. It's a trade-off like most things on a boat.

Again, my preference is to focus on prevention. I would rather figure out how to stop the keels falling off, than find the perfect way to abandon ship. Some attention needs to be given to both, but I prefer the greater focus be on prevention.

Well, I don't think we can specify "perfect". we sure as hell can specify "imperfect" and I maintain that below decks, in a lazarette, or trapped under a helm seat qualifies as such. If you can't deploy it, why carry it?

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^^ the uscg spent 2 days looking, deploying multiple aircraft. We know they were looking in the right place. They "saturated" the search area. And yes, they are using IR in addition to visual. They concluded there was no-one alive.

 

They have proven in the past they are more than willing to go to almost any effort to save lives when they think there is a chance. The bounty case is a good example, where they went out in near hurricane conditions and found one of the crew alone in the water a mile or two from the vessel. If there was new information to check here, or a new position to search, the uscg would be the first to go.

 

I will suggest the UK sailing community criticism of the uscg effort is not well thought out and unwarranted, and quite frankly disappointing. The suggestions that they would have searched longer for Americans and only stopped because they were Brits is insulting to the service.

 

But now they are being asked to fly a 1000 miles out, conduct a search pattern, and a 1000 miles back when their experience tells them there is no-one alive. And to make it worse, after several days, the "likely drift cone" to search is now very big. If they were not found in the first 2 days, it is 10 times less likely now. They will do their professional best in this renewed search, but it has only been ordered for "political theater", and I truly hope they do not have a plane go down or an accident happen during it.

 

I don't know when the yachting community started expecting SAR airplane search patterns 1000miles out at sea as due course. It was certainly not the case when I started ocean sailing. Now we are demanding they continue that 1000 mile search even when their most conservative estimates say there is no-one alive. We, as the offshore sailing community, might want to consider whether that sense of expectation has gotten out of hand.

 

I would like to know if this sail boat grounded in the past two seasons, and when/where the keel was last removed/bolts torqued? Those seem to me to be the pertinent areas to focus on now - why did this happen?

 

Abso-freakin-lutely. Well done E.

 

Yup, Evans nailed it...

 

Ironic, this sort of 'political' pressure being brought to bear on the CG and how they conduct their business, coming so closely on the heels of the massive public 'outcry' - much of it completely ill-informed, of course - over the cost and risk posed to the rescuers in the REBEL HEART episode...

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Terrible shame. If they made it to the raft, who knows. Does anyone know for certain whether the 20 hour survival estimate was for immersion? If so, what would their models say if they were in the life raft with foulies, fleece layers, food/water and Mylar blankets/suits?

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quote

The 40.7 I used to race on had no bilge, the keel mates directly to the bottom of the hull, no sump, thru the hull into a grid system which appeared to be attached to the hull with some type of super adhesive. When they ground hard, the grid system breaks away from the hull by design (I was told).

How do I know this? I was on the boat when we hit ground at at or near hull speed. Mucho dinero to fix correctly. Bene was involved directly with yard when it was fixed. I was at the yard when the keel was reattached and also during some of the repair work. The grid system seemed robust and allegedly designed to do exactly what it was supposed to when grounded hard.

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