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We told you there was some major NoCal fuckery at the Ditch, and here it is. This just in from Jon Shampain, 1/3 owner of the Hobie 33, ‘Still Crazy’.

We want to preface this write up by saying that it is not your typical “I don’t like my rating” rant. It is more of a “This idiot decided our rating was wrong based on the wrong information and sail configuration and he won’t admit an error or fix it” rant.

We recently brought our Hobie 33, 'Still Crazy' from Southern California to San Francisco for the 2014 Delta Ditch Run from Richmond to Stockton. We sailed with our friends and family while incurring many expenses, which include but are not limited to trailering our 33 foot boat, hotel rooms for crew, and meals for the weekend. The Ditch has always been fun and the people warm and inviting. And so, the time and effort coming to the regatta has always been worth it in the past.

We have done this race a number of times before. We last raced in 2009, and rated 87 (3rd in class/51st overall). We were signed up last year but pulled out due to a family medical issue. We were listed at an 87 then as well. This is a rating for a Hobie with the small ‘J’ length spinnaker pole, standard Hobie 33 spinnaker hoist and a 3 second penalty for modifying our boat. We have an open transom, modified toe rail, and interior. The boat still weighs over 4000 pounds like all Hobie 33s. For the record, many Moore 24s racing One Design with no rating penalty have done similar modifications. This year I applied again and used the Stockton Sailing Club Rating form and declared our boats configuration. We submitted 87 for the rating as it has been our rating configuration for years. We then received an email from Tom Lueck, SSC Ditch Run PHRF Committee, well before the regatta asking us to confirm our boats declared configuration. We did and we only used one small girthed symmetrical spinnaker for the entire race. We assured him of our boats configuration. All seemed well.

After sailing a wonderful race, believing we had won our class and receiving congratulations from many of our competitors, we packed up our boat, enjoyed the dinner at SSC and drove 7 hours through the night home to Southern California. Sunday, we found out on line that our rating had been changed to 78 and that we were listed in fourth. As we looked into it, we found that our rating had changed on the registration page as well and that it was not an accident. I printed the ratings the day before the race and we were listed us at an 87. The morning of the race, Richmond Yacht Club had a posted list, also showing our rating at an 87.

Facts:

  • All boats in Division 1 except ours used PHRFNC Buoy based ratings

  • The Buoy rating for a Hobie with short pole and hoist is 93

  • The buoy rating for a Hobe with the standard pole and hoist is 87

  • Still Crazy in SF/Ditch configuration has the standard hoist but short pole. That would be a 90 rating. With an additional 3 second penalty for our deck modification, we come to the 87 that we have always been, and always declared.

  • Immediately after discovering the rating change, we started inquiring as to what happened. We left several emails and attempted to contact SSC numerous times. We eventually received a call from William Humphreys, claiming to be the Stockton Sailing Club PHRF representative, who told us that he had, in fact, changed our rating. He couldn't tell us what prompted him changed our rating after the event but did say that they had looked at our PHRF SoCal rating and saw it was a 78 so they used that rating. He later wrote to us, changed his story and said that actually he had seen a PHRFSC certificate that had us listed with a 9 second per mile penalty so he took the PHRFNC base rating and took 9 seconds away.

There are many reasons why the data William claimed to have used is wrong.

  1. First and foremost, it's simply not true. We looked at both of our PHRFSC certificates. One certificate has us rated at an 87 with standard Hobie 33 poles, asymmetrical spinnakers, square top mainsail, and deck/interior modifications. The other certificate has us rated at 93 with standard poles, standard spinnaker hoist, and deck/interior modifications. Neither of these are representative of our Ditch configuration. This should have been clear if he had read our Ditch Run application. The 9 second penalty he later refers to includes the 3 for the deck/interior modification and another 6 for a square top mainsail, again, not our configuration for the Ditch Run. The 87 rating in NorCal already includes the adjustment for the deck/interior modification and we didn’t use a square top mainsail. If we used a SoCal rating with a short pole, we would have been a 96 for the Ditch!

  1. We declared our Ditch Run configuration perfectly and carefully on the application.

  1. 14 days elapsed between registering and Tom Lueck’s email asking us to confirm our configuration. After calling Tom personally to confirm, another 12 days passed before start of the regatta.

  1. We were at the regatta and no one approached us to inquire about a potential issue or a question about our boats rated configuration. We printed the ratings before driving north, we looked at the posted ratings Friday, and then again the morning of the race. All postings had us at an 87 rating. Our crew was at Richmond Yacht Club all day Friday drinking in the bar and later having dinner, and then again Saturday morning. How hard would have it been to come and talk with us? Instead they let us drive 16 hours, spend around 6K, and waste 3 days, then waited for us to get home and discover for ourselves the changes they had made without talking with any one of us.

  1. William told us that it was our fault for not attaching an expired 2007 PHRF NC rating certificate that showed we had been rated 87 in the past.

  1. The SIs/NOR/Registration ask for a Stockton Rating application OR a PHRF NC certificate. As our 2007 Certificate had expired, we simply filled out the appropriate SSC application with our configuration and rating that matched what we had been in every Ditch Run we am aware of. We filled it out accurately and carefully. It was accepted and posted on line along with our class designation and an 87 rating. Nothing had formally changed as of our starting time Saturday morning.

This is extremely unacceptable and leaves our stomachs churning. We feel that it was done with malicious intent and needs to be corrected.

Other interesting facts while we're at it:

  • The SI's say that the race will be scored PHRF 'time on time'. For the record it was not.

  • Before the start of the race, the other Hobie 33 owed our Hobie 33 3 seconds per mile. He was using larger spinnaker poles and larger spinnakers. After the race, we owed him 6 seconds per mile. This was enough swing for him to beat us on corrected time.

  • Our Hobie is stock mast, boom, keel, rudder and short aluminum spin pole and small spinnakers in SF/Ditch configuration.

  • Their Hobie is a double spreader mast with runners and longer poles and larger spinnakers.

  • We emailed our plight to the race directors and commodores of both yacht clubs and heard nothing.

Anyway, that is our story. We’re not sure why William Humphreys of Stockton Sailing Club used our square top mainsail and longer pole, wider spinnaker configuration to rate our short pole, narrow spinnaker, standard mainsail configuration. Perhaps we will never know. But we do know that he has refused to do the right thing, and by failing to do so, our race was effectively ruined.

Perhaps somebody higher up will step up and make things right.

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We told you there was some major NoCal fuckery at the Ditch, and here it is. This just in from Jon Shampain, 1/3 owner of the Hobie 33, ‘Still Crazy’.

We want to preface this write up by saying that it is not your typical “I don’t like my rating” rant. It is more of a “This idiot decided our rating was wrong based on the wrong information and sail configuration and he won’t admit an error or fix it” rant.

We recently brought our Hobie 33, 'Still Crazy' from Southern California to San Francisco for the 2014 Delta Ditch Run from Richmond to Stockton. We sailed with our friends and family while incurring many expenses, which include but are not limited to trailering our 33 foot boat, hotel rooms for crew, and meals for the weekend. The Ditch has always been fun and the people warm and inviting. And so, the time and effort coming to the regatta has always been worth it in the past.

We have done this race a number of times before. We last raced in 2009, and rated 87 (3rd in class/51st overall). We were signed up last year but pulled out due to a family medical issue. We were listed at an 87 then as well. This is a rating for a Hobie with the small ‘J’ length spinnaker pole, standard Hobie 33 spinnaker hoist and a 3 second penalty for modifying our boat. We have an open transom, modified toe rail, and interior. The boat still weighs over 4000 pounds like all Hobie 33s. For the record, many Moore 24s racing One Design with no rating penalty have done similar modifications. This year I applied again and used the Stockton Sailing Club Rating form and declared our boats configuration. We submitted 87 for the rating as it has been our rating configuration for years. We then received an email from Tom Lueck, SSC Ditch Run PHRF Committee, well before the regatta asking us to confirm our boats declared configuration. We did and we only used one small girthed symmetrical spinnaker for the entire race. We assured him of our boats configuration. All seemed well.

After sailing a wonderful race, believing we had won our class and receiving congratulations from many of our competitors, we packed up our boat, enjoyed the dinner at SSC and drove 7 hours through the night home to Southern California. Sunday, we found out on line that our rating had been changed to 78 and that we were listed in fourth. As we looked into it, we found that our rating had changed on the registration page as well and that it was not an accident. I printed the ratings the day before the race and we were listed us at an 87. The morning of the race, Richmond Yacht Club had a posted list, also showing our rating at an 87.

Facts:

  • All boats in Division 1 except ours used PHRFNC Buoy based ratings

  • The Buoy rating for a Hobie with short pole and hoist is 93

  • The buoy rating for a Hobe with the standard pole and hoist is 87

  • Still Crazy in SF/Ditch configuration has the standard hoist but short pole. That would be a 90 rating. With an additional 3 second penalty for our deck modification, we come to the 87 that we have always been, and always declared.

  • Immediately after discovering the rating change, we started inquiring as to what happened. We left several emails and attempted to contact SSC numerous times. We eventually received a call from William Humphreys, claiming to be the Stockton Sailing Club PHRF representative, who told us that he had, in fact, changed our rating. He couldn't tell us what prompted him changed our rating after the event but did say that they had looked at our PHRF SoCal rating and saw it was a 78 so they used that rating. He later wrote to us, changed his story and said that actually he had seen a PHRFSC certificate that had us listed with a 9 second per mile penalty so he took the PHRFNC base rating and took 9 seconds away.

There are many reasons why the data William claimed to have used is wrong.

  1. First and foremost, it's simply not true. We looked at both of our PHRFSC certificates. One certificate has us rated at an 87 with standard Hobie 33 poles, asymmetrical spinnakers, square top mainsail, and deck/interior modifications. The other certificate has us rated at 93 with standard poles, standard spinnaker hoist, and deck/interior modifications. Neither of these are representative of our Ditch configuration. This should have been clear if he had read our Ditch Run application. The 9 second penalty he later refers to includes the 3 for the deck/interior modification and another 6 for a square top mainsail, again, not our configuration for the Ditch Run. The 87 rating in NorCal already includes the adjustment for the deck/interior modification and we didn’t use a square top mainsail. If we used a SoCal rating with a short pole, we would have been a 96 for the Ditch!

  1. We declared our Ditch Run configuration perfectly and carefully on the application.

  1. 14 days elapsed between registering and Tom Lueck’s email asking us to confirm our configuration. After calling Tom personally to confirm, another 12 days passed before start of the regatta.

  1. We were at the regatta and no one approached us to inquire about a potential issue or a question about our boats rated configuration. We printed the ratings before driving north, we looked at the posted ratings Friday, and then again the morning of the race. All postings had us at an 87 rating. Our crew was at Richmond Yacht Club all day Friday drinking in the bar and later having dinner, and then again Saturday morning. How hard would have it been to come and talk with us? Instead they let us drive 16 hours, spend around 6K, and waste 3 days, then waited for us to get home and discover for ourselves the changes they had made without talking with any one of us.

  1. William told us that it was our fault for not attaching an expired 2007 PHRF NC rating certificate that showed we had been rated 87 in the past.

  1. The SIs/NOR/Registration ask for a Stockton Rating application OR a PHRF NC certificate. As our 2007 Certificate had expired, we simply filled out the appropriate SSC application with our configuration and rating that matched what we had been in every Ditch Run we am aware of. We filled it out accurately and carefully. It was accepted and posted on line along with our class designation and an 87 rating. Nothing had formally changed as of our starting time Saturday morning.

This is extremely unacceptable and leaves our stomachs churning. We feel that it was done with malicious intent and needs to be corrected.

Other interesting facts while we're at it:

  • The SI's say that the race will be scored PHRF 'time on time'. For the record it was not.

  • Before the start of the race, the other Hobie 33 owed our Hobie 33 3 seconds per mile. He was using larger spinnaker poles and larger spinnakers. After the race, we owed him 6 seconds per mile. This was enough swing for him to beat us on corrected time.

  • Our Hobie is stock mast, boom, keel, rudder and short aluminum spin pole and small spinnakers in SF/Ditch configuration.

  • Their Hobie is a double spreader mast with runners and longer poles and larger spinnakers.

  • We emailed our plight to the race directors and commodores of both yacht clubs and heard nothing.

Anyway, that is our story. We’re not sure why William Humphreys of Stockton Sailing Club used our square top mainsail and longer pole, wider spinnaker configuration to rate our short pole, narrow spinnaker, standard mainsail configuration. Perhaps we will never know. But we do know that he has refused to do the right thing, and by failing to do so, our race was effectively ruined.

Perhaps somebody higher up will step up and make things right.

The race committee won't know about a boat running modified sails and rigging unless competitors report them sailing under modified gear which is not part of their original PHRF rating. Thats where a protest comes into play you protest the competitor sailing under the wrong PHRF rating per their modified rig or sails etc. You can also protest the RC for not using the proper PHRF rating for your boat. Sounds like you supplied the proper rating correct?

 

How many boats did the race? 100+ its up to you to inform the RC about proper ratings for your boat and its also up to competitors to protest boats which are sailing under modified equipment which is not factored into their assigned PHRF rating..

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You can also protest the RC for not using the proper PHRF rating for your boat.

 

That's where you come off the rails. You can't "protest the RC." You can request redress, which is entirely appropriate at this point. Unfortunately, the time limit has expired - even an extended time limit (they would have had to file as soon as they learned of the "error.")

 

At this juncture, it's just whining. Yes, the RC / OA may have made a bogus, unilateral decision, but by not following established procedure, Still Crazy is SOL. Their fault for not knowing the rules.

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Their fault for not knowing the rules.

Nobody expects the double secret probation!

 

 

Seriously, how could they have known? It looks like they studied the SI's very carefully, and complied with all rules, requests and requirements, then had things changed on them after they left the dock. No protests, or other notifications.

 

Frankly, one of the aspects of 'self policed' sport is that we accept what happens on the water. This boat completed the course, was announced as the winner, then had their results changed after the fact. What could they EVER do that wouldn't be construed as whining?

 

The Ditch Run has been one of those events I'm gearing up to enter with my 4ksb, but given the doucheyness of the organizers, I think I'll have to reconsider it.

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Yep I found it odd they would complain so long after the window to request redress on rating has closed.

 

At that point your just making it clear you didn't follow the SI's.

 

As for a boat thats sailing under a PHRF rating that does not account for their format change be it sails used etc thats a whole other can of worms. We had three different PHRF ratings for the U20 and depending on what sail configuration we planned on using we would sign up using that PHRF rating. Stock class Asym, Cruising asym larger kite, or the Moore 24 Symmetric kite. Yes we actually had three different PHRF ratings on file with the PHRF board one year we planned on doing the Ditch. In the end we ended up using the Class kite and rating.

 

The other U20 or fleet folks could have protested a boat had it been sailing the wrong sail combo vs PHRF race rating. Thats where protesting people for improper gear vs rating comes into play. Sounds to me if the other H33 was using a stock PHRF rating but using a modified rig and over sized sails they should be dropped from the race results and or protested by lots of other boats for not sailing with a proper ie legal PHRF rating.

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Their fault for not knowing the rules.

Nobody expects the double secret probation!

 

 

Seriously, how could they have known? It looks like they studied the SI's very carefully, and complied with all rules, requests and requirements, then had things changed on them after they left the dock. No protests, or other notifications.

 

Frankly, one of the aspects of 'self policed' sport is that we accept what happens on the water. This boat completed the course, was announced as the winner, then had their results changed after the fact. What could they EVER do that wouldn't be construed as whining?

 

The Ditch Run has been one of those events I'm gearing up to enter with my 4ksb, but given the doucheyness of the organizers, I think I'll have to reconsider it.

 

OK, let me clarify - Their fault for not knowing the rules re: redress.

 

As soon as you find out there has been an "error" in scoring, file for redress. Jury is required to extend the filing time to a reasonable time after the requestor gains knowledge of the incident - when they found out about the scoring "error." A week after the fact is not a reasonable time.

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Their fault for not knowing the rules.

Nobody expects the double secret probation!

 

 

Seriously, how could they have known? It looks like they studied the SI's very carefully, and complied with all rules, requests and requirements, then had things changed on them after they left the dock. No protests, or other notifications.

 

Frankly, one of the aspects of 'self policed' sport is that we accept what happens on the water. This boat completed the course, was announced as the winner, then had their results changed after the fact. What could they EVER do that wouldn't be construed as whining?

 

The Ditch Run has been one of those events I'm gearing up to enter with my 4ksb, but given the doucheyness of the organizers, I think I'll have to reconsider it.

 

OK, let me clarify - Their fault for not knowing the rules re: redress.

 

As soon as you find out there has been an "error" in scoring, file for redress. Jury is required to extend the filing time to a reasonable time after the requestor gains knowledge of the incident - when they found out about the scoring "error." A week after the fact is not a reasonable time.

 

 

You are unaware of the facts and the timeline.

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How does the winner feel about their trophy knowing that Still Crazy was robbed? Pretty hollow victory if you ask me. If I were gifted the win, I'd send back the trophy to those Hillbillies, withdraw from the race, and never come back again. As of now I will never do the Ditch again unless they resolve this issue.

LOL - I'm sure the locals would be fine if there were fewer out of town types for this event. It's always been a fun low key event the day it becomes a cry fest on SA is the day the Ditch looses some of its roots of being a locals fun run up the delta.

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Still Crazy, you lost. Not only the race, but the opportunity to win the race. That opportunity came in the form of Redress. From the moment you noticed an error made by the race, the clock started ticking. Just like the clock starts clicking when the race committee boat ties up to the dock.

 

Your choice was to take what you wrote above, not for the court of public opinion, but to the protest/redress committee. Since you live some hours away, and this hearing would not need for everyone to be in the room to see little boats on a table like in a protest, this one could be done via conference call with you and the protest/redress committee.

 

It saddens me when people don't take the process that is available to them, and then wants a whole bunch of others to sit at the bar and commiserate with them.

 

If you really wanted to jab it to Delta Ditch, you should have redressed instead. Now? You got nuthin.

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@ Hobie Anarchy, you’re absolutely right in the end, however, we tried to handle it outside of the protest room first because nobody likes protests. We thought incorrectly that it was an easy fix. By the time we figured out that we were talking to brick walls, it was to late. Also, the only contacts we had race and rating related were the same people who told us they wouldn’t change the rating back. We got the answer without the protest. William wrote to me in an email, “Once the race is completed we do not change PHRF numbers.”

@ Bulbhunter, as the article says, we carefully filled out our application. When they decided to change our rating based on a different areas rating, they failed to see that our applications sizes didn’t match the rating certificates they claimed to have looked at. So they disregarded our application completely and used a rating certificate from a different area with a different configuration without notification.

And yes, this is complaining at this point. But if we don’t, how will others, including ourselves learn or prepare better in the future.

 

Erik Shampain other 1/3 owner of Still Crazy, Hobie 33.

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If it was me, I think I'd make sure the sponsors of this event knew what happened. Does West Marine really like being part of this sort of fiasco? Or Mt. Gay?

 

While some of the rules gurus here will argue about "reasonable time", this falls under the heading of "it's never too late to do the right thing".

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Eloquently and clearly written. Whether redress should have been sought earlier or not, I appreciate the unusually calm prose rather than the usual anti-Fresno/Stockton virtiol that seems to spew so freely from so many people's pens on this forum. Contrary to the post immediately above, I believe the "court of public opinion" is a valid one when approached in this manner, and spreads awareness of - and therefore helps prevent - potentially inappropriate or questionable behaviors by any governing body.

 

Frustrating as it must have been to invest all that time on money in a disputable result, we must not forget that PHRF, by definition, doesn't always produce equitable results because the ratings are somewhat subjective, being based on a varing history of sailors' skills, wind conditions, water conditions, etc, and adjustments to the rating number due to boat modifications make the rating yet more subjective. I would certainly like to see a valid explanation from SSC as it does seem from your account that the protocols followed were unusual. That being said, all of us who sail PHRF or Portsmouth must focus more on the pleasure of the sailing, the race and of putting our best efforts forward, rather than the result. It is my feeling that if we want fairness and accuracy, we should move into OD racing...

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How does the winner feel about their trophy knowing that Still Crazy was robbed? Pretty hollow victory if you ask me. If I were gifted the win, I'd send back the trophy to those Hillbillies, withdraw from the race, and never come back again. As of now I will never do the Ditch again unless they resolve this issue.

LOL - I'm sure the locals would be fine if there were fewer out of town types for this event. It's always been a fun low key event the day it becomes a cry fest on SA is the day the Ditch looses some of its roots of being a locals fun run up the delta.

Nice attitude--- "Locals only"

Load of bullshit Bulbness.

More folks from different locations add to the overall experience. Meet new people, see different boats, share sailing stories.... Better!

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How does the winner feel about their trophy knowing that Still Crazy was robbed? Pretty hollow victory if you ask me. If I were gifted the win, I'd send back the trophy to those Hillbillies, withdraw from the race, and never come back again. As of now I will never do the Ditch again unless they resolve this issue.

LOL - I'm sure the locals would be fine if there were fewer out of town types for this event. It's always been a fun low key event the day it becomes a cry fest on SA is the day the Ditch looses some of its roots of being a locals fun run up the delta.

Nice attitude--- "Locals only"

Load of bullshit Bulbness.

More folks from different locations add to the overall experience. Meet new people, see different boats, share sailing stories.... Better!

Notice I'm "Quoting here"

 

Only person to use "Locals Only" was Family sailor

 

Big difference between someone saying "Locals Only event" vs suggesting people coming 400 miles then complaining about the event, ,maybe they should stay home?

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all of us who sail PHRF or Portsmouth must focus more on the pleasure of the sailing, rather than the result.

And for that, you sure don't need to attend any events.

 

 

cue: "Gee, I wonder why so few boats come to regattas anymore ?"

 

I have to wonder what the response to "why was a sister ship with LARGER pole & kites rated SLOWER in a down-wind race ?" was - because as stated, Still Crazy got screwed.

 

Nice job discouraging fair competition, Stockton.

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@ Hobie Anarchy, you’re absolutely right in the end, however, we tried to handle it outside of the protest room first because nobody likes protests.

 

Erik Shampain other 1/3 owner of Still Crazy, Hobie 33.

 

Protests are not a bad thing. I appreciate the "try and settle it informally" attitude (I am a Hobie sailor, after all), but cover your ass, man! It doesn't take 5 minutes to fill out a form and e-mail/fax/whatever it to the organizing authority. It's not a big deal - until it is.

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I guess this is a lesson to people that have multiple certs for different config's. Confirm confirm confirm or get fucked or flicked. Perhaps ask for an inspection to prove the faster shit is not on board would be one way to confirm

I've seen people do this -- hey RC inspect that boat make sure they left the over sized pole and womper at home because their PHRF rating in use for this race is stock gear only. Sure np someone goes over looks and says hey you can't have that womper and 20ft pole on board get that shit off the boat.

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How does the winner feel about their trophy knowing that Still Crazy was robbed? Pretty hollow victory if you ask me. If I were gifted the win, I'd send back the trophy to those Hillbillies, withdraw from the race, and never come back again. As of now I will never do the Ditch again unless they resolve this issue.

LOL - I'm sure the locals would be fine if there were fewer out of town types for this event. It's always been a fun low key event the day it becomes a cry fest on SA is the day the Ditch looses some of its roots of being a locals fun run up the delta.

Nice attitude--- "Locals only"

Load of bullshit Bulbness.

More folks from different locations add to the overall experience. Meet new people, see different boats, share sailing stories.... Better!

Notice I'm "Quoting here"

 

Only person to use "Locals Only" was Family sailor

 

Big difference between someone saying "Locals Only event" vs suggesting people coming 400 miles then complaining about the event, ,maybe they should stay home?

Okay, then what do you mean by this, "I'm sure the locals would be fine if there were fewer out of town types for this event."

If you weren't telling everyone that wasn't a member of "the locals" to stay away what were you saying?

 

If the non local participant that travelled 400 miles had not had their rating changed after the race was completed he probably wouldn't be complaning.

Of course one of "the locals" would never complain if the same thing had happened to them.

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If it was me, I think I'd make sure the sponsors of this event knew what happened. Does West Marine really like being part of this sort of fiasco? Or Mt. Gay?

 

While some of the rules gurus here will argue about "reasonable time", this falls under the heading of "it's never too late to do the right thing".

 

Go ahead, do what Peter suggests, file REDRESS within the next hour, fax it, email it, do whatever you have to do to get it into their hands. In the prehearing, ask for the redress deadline to be extended, explain why it should be extended. Protest/Redress Committees do have a lot of latitude, but simply put, they do need a Good Reason to extend a deadline. Give them one.

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How does the winner feel about their trophy knowing that Still Crazy was robbed? Pretty hollow victory if you ask me. If I were gifted the win, I'd send back the trophy to those Hillbillies, withdraw from the race, and never come back again. As of now I will never do the Ditch again unless they resolve this issue.

LOL - I'm sure the locals would be fine if there were fewer out of town types for this event. It's always been a fun low key event the day it becomes a cry fest on SA is the day the Ditch looses some of its roots of being a locals fun run up the delta.

Nice attitude--- "Locals only"

Load of bullshit Bulbness.

More folks from different locations add to the overall experience. Meet new people, see different boats, share sailing stories.... Better!

Notice I'm "Quoting here"

 

Only person to use "Locals Only" was Family sailor

 

Big difference between someone saying "Locals Only event" vs suggesting people coming 400 miles then complaining about the event, ,maybe they should stay home?

Okay, then what do you mean by this, "I'm sure the locals would be fine if there were fewer out of town types for this event."

If you weren't telling everyone that wasn't a member of "the locals" to stay away what were you saying?

 

If the non local participant that travelled 400 miles had not had their rating changed after the race was completed he probably wouldn't be complaning.

Of course one of "the locals" would never complain if the same thing had happened to them.

Same thing for me - I spent over $1000 getting to and attending an SD event - I had my regatta results dramatically impacted by a protest which was levied for the wrong race per the incident listed no notification was ever done nor was the protest board which we checked ever updated. Because the protest was placed on a temporary stand /board in a location where 99% of the attending sailors NEVER WENT! Hell even the person who levied the protest thought it went ignored till they saw the redress which happened to be against the wrong race where I had placed 1st instead of the race where I had finished 4th and the incident occurred. I approached the RC explained that no one including the boat that protested saw the notice of protest given it was never placed on the notice board nor was anyone contacted. This was one of many lame RC mistakes over the past three years that eventually had my self and many out of town sailors choosing to simply attend a different event.

 

Why bother complaining to the locals about a ongoing issue that doesn't get corrected? They apparently are fine with it.

 

As for the Ditch its pretty clear that the OP instead of crying about it on SA needed to track down the right people and file for redress. Nothing will piss off volunteer RC peeps more than a competitor posting a bitch fest on SA without having tried the proper process to start with.

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I own the other Hobie 33 you raced against. Excellent race you guys sailed. You definitely walked away from us whenever we hit the light spots. It was great to have another Hobie on the racecourse.

 

I think you guys may have missed an important detail about your entry requirements. The NOR very clearly states:

 

"This event is open to boats with a San Francisco Bay or Stockton Sailing Club PHRF rating."

 

I contacted the SF YRA office and confirmed that Still Crazy does not have a valid 2014 NC-PHRF certificate. Still Crazy *did* have a 2013 certificate, which rated the boat at 81. Your facts appear to be SoCal PHRF facts....not the NC-PHRF facts required by the NOR. A simple online form and $40 might have saved you all this grief, which is unfortunate.

 

If you had obtained a valid 2014 cert and rated 81 (like last year), I believe you would have corrected second in your division behind the (extremely well sailed) Melges 24 "Average White Boat", which rated 84 (same as us). By the way, 87 seems to be the "stock" number in NorCal for the Hobie 33. If you guys owe SoCal Hobie's time you might rate lower than 87 in NorCal.

 

Sorry to see you guys frustrated with the results. I for one was very happy to have you guys on the racetrack and we had a great time racing and partying. Ratings issue aside, SSC hit another one out of the park.

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^ There you go the full story. Since when is a Socal PHRF rating anything like the Norcal PHRF? Come on guys the Socal PHRF game thanks to Dennis and a few others is a well known mess. If your racing your Socal boat under a socal PHRF in Norcal you missed a big portion of the Race paperwork to ensure you were sailing under a fair rating in Norcal.

 

 

I'm having another Clean flash back to bashing Fresno YC here.

 

Boat owner fails to supply proper PHRF data to a club managing a huge event then crys about it? Come one folks at some point you need to man up and handle your part of the document trail so the RC has the right info.

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LOL - I'm sure the locals would be fine if there were fewer out of town types for this event. It's always been a fun low key event the day it becomes a cry fest on SA is the day the Ditch looses some of its roots of being a locals fun run up the delta.

Nice attitude--- "Locals only"

Load of bullshit Bulbness.

More folks from different locations add to the overall experience. Meet new people, see different boats, share sailing stories.... Better!

Notice I'm "Quoting here"

 

Only person to use "Locals Only" was Family sailor

 

Big difference between someone saying "Locals Only event" vs suggesting people coming 400 miles then complaining about the event, ,maybe they should stay home?

Okay, then what do you mean by this, "I'm sure the locals would be fine if there were fewer out of town types for this event."

If you weren't telling everyone that wasn't a member of "the locals" to stay away what were you saying?

 

If the non local participant that travelled 400 miles had not had their rating changed after the race was completed he probably wouldn't be complaning.

Of course one of "the locals" would never complain if the same thing had happened to them.

Same thing for me - I spent over $1000 getting to and attending an SD event - I had my regatta results dramatically impacted by a protest which was levied for the wrong race per the incident listed no notification was ever done nor was the protest board which we checked ever updated. Because the protest was placed on a temporary stand /board in a location where 99% of the attending sailors NEVER WENT! Hell even the person who levied the protest thought it went ignored till they saw the redress which happened to be against the wrong race where I had placed 1st instead of the race where I had finished 4th and the incident occurred. I approached the RC explained that no one including the boat that protested saw the notice of protest given it was never placed on the notice board nor was anyone contacted. This was one of many lame RC mistakes over the past three years that eventually had my self and many out of town sailors choosing to simply attend a different event.

 

Why bother complaining to the locals about a ongoing issue that doesn't get corrected? They apparently are fine with it.

 

As for the Ditch its pretty clear that the OP instead of crying about it on SA needed to track down the right people and file for redress. Nothing will piss off volunteer RC peeps more than a competitor posting a bitch fest on SA without having tried the proper process to start with.

WHAT?!!!

Ignoring another of your "One time at Bandcamp... " stories...

 

Please answer this question:

Okay, then what do you mean by this, "I'm sure the locals would be fine if there were fewer out of town types for this event."

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If it was me, I think I'd make sure the sponsors of this event knew what happened. Does West Marine really like being part of this sort of fiasco? Or Mt. Gay?

 

While some of the rules gurus here will argue about "reasonable time", this falls under the heading of "it's never too late to do the right thing".

 

Go ahead, do what Peter suggests, file REDRESS within the next hour, fax it, email it, do whatever you have to do to get it into their hands. In the prehearing, ask for the redress deadline to be extended, explain why it should be extended. Protest/Redress Committees do have a lot of latitude, but simply put, they do need a Good Reason to extend a deadline. Give them one.

Didn't they drop it in the mail as soon as they found out?.!?..

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I own the other Hobie 33 you raced against. Excellent race you guys sailed. You definitely walked away from us whenever we hit the light spots. It was great to have another Hobie on the racecourse.

 

I think you guys may have missed an important detail about your entry requirements. The NOR very clearly states:

 

"This event is open to boats with a San Francisco Bay or Stockton Sailing Club PHRF rating."

 

I contacted the SF YRA office and confirmed that Still Crazy does not have a valid 2014 NC-PHRF certificate. Still Crazy *did* have a 2013 certificate, which rated the boat at 81. Your facts appear to be SoCal PHRF facts....not the NC-PHRF facts required by the NOR. A simple online form and $40 might have saved you all this grief, which is unfortunate.

 

If you had obtained a valid 2014 cert and rated 81 (like last year), I believe you would have corrected second in your division behind the (extremely well sailed) Melges 24 "Average White Boat", which rated 84 (same as us). By the way, 87 seems to be the "stock" number in NorCal for the Hobie 33. If you guys owe SoCal Hobie's time you might rate lower than 87 in NorCal.

 

Sorry to see you guys frustrated with the results. I for one was very happy to have you guys on the racetrack and we had a great time racing and partying. Ratings issue aside, SSC hit another one out of the park.

So were they disqualified or re-rated?

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Okay, then what do you mean by this, "I'm sure the locals would be fine if there were fewer out of town types for this event."

 

 

LOL - I'm sure the locals would be fine if there were fewer out of town types for this event. It's always been a fun low key event the day it becomes a cry fest on SA is the day the Ditch looses some of its roots of being a locals fun run up the delta.

Nice attitude--- "Locals only"

Load of bullshit Bulbness.

More folks from different locations add to the overall experience. Meet new people, see different boats, share sailing stories.... Better!

Notice I'm "Quoting here"

 

Only person to use "Locals Only" was Family sailor

 

Big difference between someone saying "Locals Only event" vs suggesting people coming 400 miles then complaining about the event, ,maybe they should stay home?

If you weren't telling everyone that wasn't a member of "the locals" to stay away what were you saying?

 

If the non local participant that travelled 400 miles had not had their rating changed after the race was completed he probably wouldn't be complaning.

Of course one of "the locals" would never complain if the same thing had happened to them.

Same thing for me - I spent over $1000 getting to and attending an SD event - I had my regatta results dramatically impacted by a protest which was levied for the wrong race per the incident listed no notification was ever done nor was the protest board which we checked ever updated. Because the protest was placed on a temporary stand /board in a location where 99% of the attending sailors NEVER WENT! Hell even the person who levied the protest thought it went ignored till they saw the redress which happened to be against the wrong race where I had placed 1st instead of the race where I had finished 4th and the incident occurred. I approached the RC explained that no one including the boat that protested saw the notice of protest given it was never placed on the notice board nor was anyone contacted. This was one of many lame RC mistakes over the past three years that eventually had my self and many out of town sailors choosing to simply attend a different event.

 

Why bother complaining to the locals about a ongoing issue that doesn't get corrected? They apparently are fine with it.

 

As for the Ditch its pretty clear that the OP instead of crying about it on SA needed to track down the right people and file for redress. Nothing will piss off volunteer RC peeps more than a competitor posting a bitch fest on SA without having tried the proper process to start with.

WHAT?!!!

Ignoring another of your "One time at Bandcamp... " stories...

 

Please answer this question:

Okay, then what do you mean by this, "I'm sure the locals would be fine if there were fewer out of town types for this event."

When it comes to someone who isn't local - trying to use a PHRF rating from another area not the Published rating for the region --- Then makes such a bad thread on SA even gets posted on the front page - Come on get over your self your not that important nor is the fun one way PHRF race that important.

 

Never played an instrument wouldn't know about your band camp experience sorry.

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@ Stretch and Bulbhunter - Please don't make the same mistake SSC did. I am looking at our 2013 PHRFNC certificate right now. It is clearly for oversized poles and asymmetrical spinnakers. AGAIN, not the configuration we perfectly and accurately reported on our application. The reason we started doing the SCC application long ago was that PHRFNC only lets you hold one certificate at a time. We could not do the Ditch with small symmetricals and then race coastal cup with our standard asymetricals. The two Hobie 33 base ratings are on line at PHRFNC. This is not rocket science. I followed the NOR. I had a Stockton rating. It was changed after the start and with no notification. Did you even read our letter? Your pole was nearly a foot bigger and spinnakers nearly 2' wider. ALL of these facts are from PHRFNC. The only mention of PHRFSC is in the fact that William Humpfreys said they used it to change our rating.

 

Erik Shampain, 1/3 owner still Crazy, Hobie 33

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Question, was there an award ceremony after the race? If so, who was announced as the winner?

 

I knew there were good reasons for racing OD. Handicap racing you should be out there for fun, a single race can easily be won by luck rather than skill...

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@ Stretch and Bulbhunter - Please don't make the same mistake SSC did. I am looking at our 2013 PHRFNC certificate right now. It is clearly for oversized poles and asymmetrical spinnakers. AGAIN, not the configuration we perfectly and accurately reported on our application. The reason we started doing the SCC application long ago was that PHRFNC only lets you hold one certificate at a time. We could not do the Ditch with small symmetricals and then race coastal cup with our standard asymetricals. The two Hobie 33 base ratings are on line at PHRFNC. This is not rocket science. I followed the NOR. I had a Stockton rating. It was changed after the start and with no notification. Did you even read our letter? Your pole was nearly a foot bigger and spinnakers nearly 2' wider. ALL of these facts are from PHRFNC. The only mention of PHRFSC is in the fact that William Humpfreys said they used it to change our rating.

 

Erik Shampain, 1/3 owner still Crazy, Hobie 33

So you were using nor cal phrf rating and submitted that to the RC in your race application. Then at some point the RC for whatever reason used a different rating for you? Did you notify the RC after the race regarding the rating typo and needed fix? Or was it a week later?

 

At some point all RC's need to put a stop to the parade of competitors walking in the door asking for modifications or the RC will be doing changes till the event happens the following year.

Last of all keep in mind some times things just happen and when it comes to sailing unless your a pro and your paycheck and employment depends on it all of us are just doing this for entertainment and fun. When its not fun its time to do something else or find a different event to attend that you enjoy and have fun doing.

 

Either way SA front page bitch for a huge PHRF some what low key event? No wonder so many clubs are seeing their membership drop and people finding other things to do.

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Okay, then what do you mean by this, "I'm sure the locals would be fine if there were fewer out of town types for this event."

 

If the non local participant that travelled 400 miles had not had their rating changed after the race was completed he probably wouldn't be complaning.

Of course one of "the locals" would never complain if the same thing had happened to them.

Same thing for me - I spent over $1000 getting to and attending an SD event - I had my regatta results dramatically impacted by a protest which was levied for the wrong race per the incident listed no notification was ever done nor was the protest board which we checked ever updated. Because the protest was placed on a temporary stand /board in a location where 99% of the attending sailors NEVER WENT! Hell even the person who levied the protest thought it went ignored till they saw the redress which happened to be against the wrong race where I had placed 1st instead of the race where I had finished 4th and the incident occurred. I approached the RC explained that no one including the boat that protested saw the notice of protest given it was never placed on the notice board nor was anyone contacted. This was one of many lame RC mistakes over the past three years that eventually had my self and many out of town sailors choosing to simply attend a different event.

 

Why bother complaining to the locals about a ongoing issue that doesn't get corrected? They apparently are fine with it.

 

As for the Ditch its pretty clear that the OP instead of crying about it on SA needed to track down the right people and file for redress. Nothing will piss off volunteer RC peeps more than a competitor posting a bitch fest on SA without having tried the proper process to start with.

WHAT?!!!

Ignoring another of your "One time at Bandcamp... " stories...

 

Please answer this question:

Okay, then what do you mean by this, "I'm sure the locals would be fine if there were fewer out of town types for this event."

When it comes to someone who isn't local - trying to use a PHRF rating from another area not the Published rating for the region --- Then makes such a bad thread on SA even gets posted on the front page - Come on get over your self your not that important nor is the fun one way PHRF race that important.

 

Never played an instrument wouldn't know about your band camp experience sorry.

Never went to band camp? Really? You seem to have seen and done everything imaginable, based on your innumerable posts.

 

 

 

The question has nothing to do with Rating certs from anywhere. It has to do with your blanket statement quoted above in bold.

So, Do you believe what you said? Do you speak for all "the locals"? Are you sure you want to discourage "out of town types" from sailing in Bay Area and Delta events?

 

Speak for yourself you know it all twit.

 

As a "local", I enjoy racing and sailing with "out of town types". I would guess many other "locals" do too.

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Bulb,

 

The point the OP is making, as I understand it, is that he states that the OA accepted his entry, worked with him on his configuration/rating, published his rating, and then decided to change this published rating sometime after the start, and without any notification. If true, what part of the OA changing a rating after the start are you o.k. with?

 

Also, to call this a "some what low key event" is a bit of a stretch, as it has been widely publicized in all the major sailing rags over the last couple of years. ;-)

 

Cheers!!!

 

-MH

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@ Stretch and Bulbhunter - Please don't make the same mistake SSC did. I am looking at our 2013 PHRFNC certificate right now. It is clearly for oversized poles and asymmetrical spinnakers. AGAIN, not the configuration we perfectly and accurately reported on our application. The reason we started doing the SCC application long ago was that PHRFNC only lets you hold one certificate at a time. We could not do the Ditch with small symmetricals and then race coastal cup with our standard asymetricals. The two Hobie 33 base ratings are on line at PHRFNC. This is not rocket science. I followed the NOR. I had a Stockton rating. It was changed after the start and with no notification. Did you even read our letter? Your pole was nearly a foot bigger and spinnakers nearly 2' wider. ALL of these facts are from PHRFNC. The only mention of PHRFSC is in the fact that William Humpfreys said they used it to change our rating.

 

Erik Shampain, 1/3 owner still Crazy, Hobie 33

I think the intent in allowing only one configured rating per boat is to discourage boats from changing configurations to gain an edge in specific races or conditions. That might be considered "gaming the system" by some...using all advantages at your disposal by others. I am very surprised to hear about a rating change if you in fact hold a valid 2014 SSC ratings certificate. If you just asked someone if you could use your SoCal rating, that is a different story.

 

While our boat and rating is not really the topic of this thread, I will mention that our pole and kite measurements conform to Hobie33-OD requirements/rules and our kite hoist is the standard 7/8 hoist (our halyards exit masthead but we have spectacles at the stock height). We use the same rating and configuration for all races. It's very tempting to apologize for having a bigger pole but the jokes would never cease...

 

Again, it was an honor to race with you guys and I'm glad you were out there. Super nice job on the remodel.

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1. At some point all RC's need to put a stop to the parade of competitors walking in the door asking for modifications or the RC will be doing changes till the event happens the following year.

 

2. When its not fun its time to do something else or find a different event to attend that you enjoy and have fun doing.

 

3. Either way SA front page bitch for a huge PHRF some what low key event? No wonder so many clubs are seeing their membership drop and people finding other things to do.

Point # 1: They didn't run a half-dozen variations by the Organizing Authority. There was only one, until the game-playing started by the race officials !

 

# 2: This could very well be the point of the boat that got screwed over ! What kind of fun is it to have your good result yanked out from under you with a capricious, unannounced rating change ?

 

# 3: Are you REALLY blaming the guy that wants a fair shake with the decline in participation ?!? - so, it's not the people that ruin the event, it's anyone that MENTIONS IT ? wtf ?

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@ Stretch and Bulbhunter - Please don't make the same mistake SSC did. I am looking at our 2013 PHRFNC certificate right now. It is clearly for oversized poles and asymmetrical spinnakers. AGAIN, not the configuration we perfectly and accurately reported on our application. The reason we started doing the SCC application long ago was that PHRFNC only lets you hold one certificate at a time. We could not do the Ditch with small symmetricals and then race coastal cup with our standard asymetricals. The two Hobie 33 base ratings are on line at PHRFNC. This is not rocket science. I followed the NOR. I had a Stockton rating. It was changed after the start and with no notification. Did you even read our letter? Your pole was nearly a foot bigger and spinnakers nearly 2' wider. ALL of these facts are from PHRFNC. The only mention of PHRFSC is in the fact that William Humpfreys said they used it to change our rating.

 

Erik Shampain, 1/3 owner still Crazy, Hobie 33

So you were using nor cal phrf rating and submitted that to the RC in your race application. Then at some point the RC for whatever reason used a different rating for you? Did you notify the RC after the race regarding the rating typo and needed fix? Or was it a week later?

 

At some point all RC's need to put a stop to the parade of competitors walking in the door asking for modifications or the RC will be doing changes till the event happens the following year.

Last of all keep in mind some times things just happen and when it comes to sailing unless your a pro and your paycheck and employment depends on it all of us are just doing this for entertainment and fun. When its not fun its time to do something else or find a different event to attend that you enjoy and have fun doing.

 

Either way SA front page bitch for a huge PHRF some what low key event? No wonder so many clubs are seeing their membership drop and people finding other things to do.

Wow, you just continue to be a dick. Is your reading comprehension so ass backwards that you just don't bother reading? Or are you really just that much of an ass?

 

Nobody discourages out of towners from doing the Ditch, just the opposite. When a RC accepts an entry and cashes the participants check, that's a contract between parties. Redress hearings can be requested outside the listed cut off times just like protest hearings can be heard outside of the norm if that's what a PC decides is appropriate.

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Qualified Entrants

This event is open to boats with a San Francisco Bay or Stockton Sailing Club PHRF rating. In the event that identical boats rate differently under the two systems, the race committee shall assign a common rating. Due to the typical sailing conditions of time allowances for carrying reduced size headsails will not be allowed. All yachts shall carry a full race PHRF rating.


Mono-hulled boats without certificates may have a rating assigned by the Race Committee

provided that their entry is accepted. Final handicap decisions rest with the race committee.



If entrants don't request redress and wait till weeks after the event to start a bitch thread said entrants shall each be considered at least 1/3 of a full blown bitch from that point forward.

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If entrants don't request redress and wait till weeks after the event to start a bitch thread said entrants shall each be considered at least 1/3 of a full blown bitch from that point forward.

If an event has accepted an entry, including communicating with the participant, but changes the rating after the starting gun, I think the RC also gets at least 1/3 credit as a full blown bitch.

 

 

Every other PHRF race I've entered won't let you start if your cert isn't in order (using the same race management software). And they let me know about it ahead of time.

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Yes, the RC reserved the right to make final handicap decisions. But, it's BS that a rating change gets made in the 11th hour prior to the race without notification to the competitor, especially after accepting their entry and issuing a rating that agrees with their submitted data, but not noted as provisional. If the rating committee wanted to review the rating they should have noted that when the entry was confirmed. That would have at least put the boat on notice that the rating was subject to change. Moreover, they could have sought out the boat after finishing to explain they had done so, simply as a courtesy.

 

However, I can't think of a better way to get people to dig their heels in than by airing it publicly in SA.

 

Just sayin'

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@ Stretch_33, I feel something has been missed. I should clarify again. We used a ‘J’ length spinnaker pole which is shorter then the OD pole for the Ditch. PHRF NC shows that this, in addition with a short hoist (I=ISP), rates as a separate rating that is a 93. We used the standard hoist but the short pole, hence the 90, along with a 3 second penalty for a deck/interior modification brings us to 87. Again, this was clearly stated on our SSC. It was declared. It was accepted. It was changed after the start.

 

We never asked to use our SoCal rating.

 

@ Bulbhunter, I apologize, I can't quiet follow your last reply. Everything you ask is clearly written in the letter or previous response.

"So you were using nor cal phrf rating and submitted that to the RC in your race application. Then at some point the RC for whatever reason used a different rating for you? Did you notify the RC after the race regarding the rating typo and needed fix? Or was it a week later?"

I filled out an accurate SSC Application, submitted it, it was accepted and posted on line. William Humphreys of SSC then changed it without notice and after the start. I notified William as soon as I was aware of the issue which I believe was Sunday after the event. I was told that he had used my SoCal rating for our Ditch Run rating. When I explained that the certificate from SoCal was in no way reflective of our declared Ditch Run rating, I was given the "Oh well, sorry".

 

Erik Shampain 1/3 owner of Hobie 33, Still Crazy.

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They rejected our K6 entry even though we have a Portsmouth rating that the RYC converts to PHRF for scoring purposes, and we hace a SoCal PHRF rating. NORCALPHRF naturally won't rate it and thats why we were bounced.

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If an event has accepted an entry, including communicating with the participant, but changes the rating after the starting gun, I think the RC also gets at least 1/3 credit as a full blown bitch.

 

So if the rating wasn't changed after the start can we reallocate bitch blame back to the crying owners? 1/3 each of course. Me thinks the Ed's crack reporting is more crack then reporting, as usual.

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What is with these self entitled So Ca people who don't know the rules of Redress. I've seen committees change ratings arbitrary from Swiftsure to Whidbey Island Raceweek. Hell, in PDX moving a boat to another class after 2 races were run. At all these times redress was filed.

Still Crazy, you lost. Not only the race, but the opportunity to win the race. That opportunity came in the form of Redress. From the moment you noticed an error made by the race, the clock started ticking. Just like the clock starts clicking when the race committee boat ties up to the dock.

 

Your choice was to take what you wrote above, not for the court of public opinion, but to the protest/redress committee. Since you live some hours away, and this hearing would not need for everyone to be in the room to see little boats on a table like in a protest, this one could be done via conference call with you and the protest/redress committee.

 

It saddens me when people don't take the process that is available to them, and then wants a whole bunch of others to sit at the bar and commiserate with them.

 

If you really wanted to jab it to Delta Ditch, you should have redressed instead. Now? You got nuthin.

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What is with these self entitled So Ca people who don't know the rules of Redress.

I can't speak for the Still Crazy Crew, but that's some bullshit there.

 

Yeah, what is it WITH those guys expecting something like Fair Play, anyhow ?

 

I figure they thought it was a typo/clerical error when they first saw the change - I mean, their certificate had been accepted, check cashed, entry and rating posted & confirmed before racing - AND NOBODY notified them of a significant change to their competitive detriment - I mean, what the Hell kind of Hill-billy race committee would DO a thing like that ? Certainly gotta be a mistake...right ?

-- I can hear the phone call now: "You guys keyed in the wrong rating for us."

"Nope, we just decided to jack you out of any shot at a good result, WITHOUT telling you so that you couldn't do a thing about it, because FUCK YOU, that's why."

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"After sailing a wonderful race, believing we had won our class and receiving congratulations from many of our competitors, we packed up our boat, enjoyed the dinner at SSC and drove 7 hours through the night home to Southern California."

 

Too bad about the rating switch, but if you sailed a wonderful race and received congrats, what's the big deal?

 

And Ed, does this warrant the longest FP story of late? Guess it was a light news day (the story even trumped your customary sexist T&A...

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What is with these self entitled So Ca people who don't know the rules of Redress.

I can't speak for the Still Crazy Crew, but that's some bullshit there.

 

Yeah, what is it WITH those guys expecting something like Fair Play, anyhow ?

 

I figure they thought it was a typo/clerical error when they first saw the change - I mean, their certificate had been accepted, check cashed, entry and rating posted & confirmed before racing - AND NOBODY notified them of a significant change to their competitive detriment - I mean, what the Hell kind of Hill-billy race committee would DO a thing like that ? Certainly gotta be a mistake...right ?

-- I can hear the phone call now: "You guys keyed in the wrong rating for us."

"Nope, we just decided to jack you out of any shot at a good result, WITHOUT telling you so that you couldn't do a thing about it, because FUCK YOU, that's why."

 

I need a new keyboard, but it was worth it! Thx GRS

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Yeah when I first read through the OP I guessed someone simply had a dyslexic moment and transposed the rating number---78--87 what could be simpler......as a card carrying dyslexic myself I catch myself doing it often.

But--That's not what happened.

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Beyond all the process and redress it sounds a lot like the RC is using that New Math and that the numbers just don’t add up before or after or while the race was underway.

 

When you find out in the bar 2 weeks after a race that you sailed the wrong course do you wait for a protest and a decision of Retire after Finishing?

 

I don’t claim to know the whole story but no one has come along from the Organizing Authority or elsewhere with a version of events that make changing the rating of an accepted entry after the start OK. Maybe it didn’t get changed until after the finish which opens a whole nother can of worms! The RC has a chance to do the right thing here and a racer shouldn’t have to beg them to do so. It strikes me that when a rating calculation mistake occurs that can and should be fixed.

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Yep familysailor, that was what I'd have thought - no notice, has to be an error - no need to file for redress or anything like that, I'd be sure it's all just a simple data-entry error, why put everyone through the official process... and now they get blamed because they didn't do THAT - well, if we are going 'by the book' doesn't the organizing authority owe the accepted competitor notice that they have been materially impacted by the race committee ?

 

Stretch33, do you think it's right that you raced with a larger pole & chute at a SLOWER rating ?

 

As for Icebear's note that "You had fun, so what does it matter ?" - if that is the case, why bother entering a race ? Why even HAVE races ? let's all just go out and play - nobody needs to pay a race committee for that.

 

Here is the key point - the organizing authority owes the competitors fair treatment, and this was not that. Not by a long shot.

 

How close to Stockton is Lake County ?

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Hippie and Li'l Hippie. That's some fucked up shit right there.

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This sounds familiar . last year I protested the Mull 22 who won the race overall with a stock rating.....even though they had a M24 main and a modified O30 kite and a carbon rudder. The protest was not held after a month it was dismissed. This year the Mull carried a 15 sec a mile rating adjustment and still finished second over all........I talked to PHRF during my protest and did not get very far...as did other people who complained about the Mull.

Still I was very happy we had such a good race on a stock J22 to place second overall and was impressed with Mike Hopper (Majic Dragon) who won this years race in a mast head J22. Seems like a good race for symmetrical small boats if the wind holds.

It did leave a poor taste in my mouth and I do not plan to return (Dawg)...I was not impressed with the Stockton Yacht Club ability to hold a timely protest. Yes I have moved on< B

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Wow.

 

Just wow.

 

Please dont come to So Cal.

 

Eat Shit northern Cal.

 

Im not coming up for your race.

 

Glad I didnt.

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Thank you for kindly omitting the r in Nocal. Fuck the inland empire as it not NORCAL. Thank you- Mountain Folk. P f@#%&! S she foils and I built her out of wood.

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Who cares?? This is some petty whining about a handicap rating for some dinky local event - why does the readership need to be subjected to this drivel? I read two sentences and then skimmed down, looking for some coverage of something more meaningful things in the sailing world, like the college nationals - that would be a much more compelling story.

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Who cares?? This is some petty whining about a handicap rating for some dinky local event - why does the readership need to be subjected to this drivel? I read two sentences and then skimmed down, looking for some coverage of something more meaningful things in the sailing world, like the college nationals - that would be a much more compelling story.

I would guess most posters here are no longer in college..

Why would a story about the college nationals be more compelling to the average racer? Unless you are on a team, have friend or child on the team, why would anyone give a shit?

An event like the Ditch run is, or is supposed to be open for all who can bring a boat or catch a crew position. All levels of competition, fun party, etc.

 

Something went wrong with the managment......

Needs to be exposed, corrected, explained and avoided next time.

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you can file for redress if you do so as soon as you are aware of a RC or organizing authority error. There's a process for hearing redress, and if you don't think the process is followed or you don't like the outcome you can appeal. And appeal again all the way to ISAF.

Seems simple enough.

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Vote with your pocketbook and do not do the Race ever again.

 

 

 

And someone tell scot that Stockton and Fresno are not even close to each other.

 

oh they're close to each other alright. crime, drugs, poverty, and white trash retards. they're like inbred brothers. that and they both suck.hugely.

 

oh they're close to each other alright. crime, drugs, poverty, and white trash retards. they're like inbred brothers. that and they both suck. hugely.

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you can file for redress if you ...

Seems simple enough.

Sure, because that's what we should have to do to expect basic fairness in recreational sailing.

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Thank you for kindly omitting the r in Nocal. Fuck the inland empire as it not NORCAL. Thank you- Mountain Folk. P f@#%&! S she foils and I built her out of wood.

Posting while loaded? WTF are you on about?

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.
...thank-you for reminding me why I'm sooo glad to be OD.....I guess life would just be too serene SA would be too thin without ratings bafflegab :mellow:

.

And someone tell scot that Stockton and Fresno are not even close to each other.


.

...yer don't actually think he -reads- this crap do yer??? :blink:

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who gives a fuck?

 

it is basically a delivery from one horrible place to another horrible place, with a race stuck on top

 

and worrying about a PHRF handicap trophy? please, get a life

 

and you guys need to know it's the Stockton "sailing club", not "yacht club" - and they run this race, and one even worse race -

the south tower race - a race from Stockton to the blackaller bouy near the south tower of the GG bridge, and back to stockton

 

if that is not the worst race ever - then I don't know what is

 

the ditch run is not a world championship, not a national championship, not anything but a delivery in a shipping channel , the "ditch", up to the delta

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When did PHRF-Lake Erie move to San Fran??

 

MS

 

I support Still Crazy for standing up and talking about what happened. I see it all too much that competitors just stick their head in the sand and refuse to do or say anything about it. I have dealt with similar issues for years on Lake Erie. I believe that that a protest or request for redress would have just been ignored in this case. When RC's and PHRF committees refuse to follow the rules, or make their own on the fly, it damages our sport.

 

Too bad for the Ditch Run, it was always on my to do list.....not anymore!

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who gives a fuck?

 

 

 

and worrying about a PHRF handicap trophy? please, get a life

 

and you guys need to know it's the Stockton "sailing club", not "yacht club" - and they run this race, and one even worse race -

the south tower race - a race from Stockton to the blackaller bouy near the south tower of the GG bridge, and back to stockton

 

if that is not the worst race ever - then I don't know what is

 

the ditch run is not a world championship, not a national championship, not anything but a delivery in a shipping channel , the "ditch", up to the delta

 

Do you really think the Shampains are worried about a PHRF handicap trophy? You're not nearly that stupid Pete.

 

These guys live and breathe and eat sailing, and if they are bitching, it's because they see a wrong that needs to be righted. We should all be so lucky to race with our dads the way that the mini hip and hip do. They sail events like the Ditch to enjoy each other and get away from the daily pro-sailing grind, neither they nor anyone else should have to see some officious and provincial little prick from a club known for officious little pricks pull some after-race handicap changing shit.

 

Kudos to them for speaking out.

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Thank you for kindly omitting the r in Nocal. Fuck the inland empire as it not NORCAL. Thank you- Mountain Folk. P f@#%&! S she foils and I built her out of wood.

Posting while loaded? WTF are you on about?

Stockton and Fresno are two of last cities I would want to drive south to. The region is refered to as the Inland Empire. Every time I read "Fuck Norcal" I think Whoa whoa they've got their lo-cals all wrong...just trying to speak the language. I've read all the rest of it and wonder why anyone would whet their shit down there in the first place. PS I was refering to the concoction of a foiler I created from canoes, wood, and a 50 year old rig....she flies

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The DDR is a fun event and a great day of sailing in a most unique type of course setting. I have taken my own boat up there from SoCal and enjoyed the entire experience. The ratings issues are well known and the product really of the independent regional administration of PHRF as it has evolved and grown. I knew this when we did the race, having to use our SoCal OWC rating and sailing against similar boats that utilized W/L equivalent ratings because NorCal did not have OWC Ratings. I did not really care, as the race is more about the experience and camaraderie sailing with family and friends in a great setting with great hosts.

 

From 2006:

post-184-095919300 1319864136_thumb.png

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Really this is about the SSC and H-33 Still Crazy. Anyone who thinks it's a Nor-Cal vs So-Cal thing is completely wrong.

 

I saw many teams helping out of town teams prepare. There were even teams that needed help prepping so "locals" drove in to help them and spent a whole day rigging and repairing other boats. The Front page article posted from the cat guys even told how helpful the local fleet was in helping out before, during and after the race.

 

Congrats to Still Crazy for winning.

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Really this is about the SSC and H-33 Still Crazy. Anyone who thinks it's a Nor-Cal vs So-Cal thing is completely wrong.

 

I saw many teams helping out of town teams prepare. There were even teams that needed help prepping so "locals" drove in to help them and spent a whole day rigging and repairing other boats. The Front page article posted from the cat guys even told how helpful the local fleet was in helping out before, during and after the race.

 

Congrats to Still Crazy for winning.

 

Absolutely correct. Everybody (except one) was amazing all the way through the regatta. We launched with little notice at Berkeley Marine. They were super friendly, patient with us, and professional. Jay at Butler Marine helped us with a couple of last minute rigging parts. The guys at Richmond Yacht Club were very helpful finding us a slip for the night and also lending us a handheld VHF as we encountered a last minute battery issue. Of course, the bar and dinner are always good. The guys at the Stockton crane were among the best I've seen. We were able to get the rig laid down and boat on the trailer in very short time. And finally the BBQ at the end is always fun while watching the last finishers come through the dark. We had a lot of fun. Until we got home.

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Your facts as they relate to the timeliness of a request for redress: “Sunday, we found out on line that our rating had been changed to 78 and that we were listed in fourth. . . . Immediately after discovering the rating change, we started inquiring as to what happened. We left several emails and attempted to contact SSC numerous times. We eventually received a call . . . . He later wrote to us . . . .”

 

RRS 60.1 - A boat may . . . (B) request redress.

 

RRS 62.1

A request for redress or a protest committee’s decision to consider redress shall be based on a claim or possibility that a boat’s score in a race or series has been or may be, through no fault of her own, made significantly worse by

(a) an improper action or omission of the race committee, protest committee, organizing authority, equipment inspection committee or measurement committee for the event . . . .

 

RRS 62.2

. . . If the request is based on an incident in the racing area, it shall be delivered to the race office within the protest time limit or two hours after the incident, whichever is later. Other requests shall be delivered as soon as reasonably possible after learning of the reasons for making the request. The protest committee shall extend the time if there is good reason to do so. . . .

 

Your “as soon as reasonably possible after learning of the reasons” time limit probably expired sometime between when “He later wrote to us” and when Editor put this on the Front Page.

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who gives a fuck?

 

 

 

and worrying about a PHRF handicap trophy? please, get a life

 

and you guys need to know it's the Stockton "sailing club", not "yacht club" - and they run this race, and one even worse race -

the south tower race - a race from Stockton to the blackaller bouy near the south tower of the GG bridge, and back to stockton

 

if that is not the worst race ever - then I don't know what is

 

the ditch run is not a world championship, not a national championship, not anything but a delivery in a shipping channel , the "ditch", up to the delta

 

Do you really think the Shampains are worried about a PHRF handicap trophy? You're not nearly that stupid Pete.

 

These guys live and breathe and eat sailing, and if they are bitching, it's because they see a wrong that needs to be righted. We should all be so lucky to race with our dads the way that the mini hip and hip do. They sail events like the Ditch to enjoy each other and get away from the daily pro-sailing grind, neither they nor anyone else should have to see some officious and provincial little prick from a club known for officious little pricks pull some after-race handicap changing shit.

 

Kudos to them for speaking out.

This x1,000 Its not about the trophy its about a BS rating change done under cover of darkness in the hope they would just let it go and stay quiet. If they did then it would be another guy getting screwed next year. I have found it to be a strange time in sailing as all the talk is about expanding sailing while I watch the reality of it chasing good owners out of the game. I have been involved in two protests this year that were requested by the owner to make a point about not letting people just flog the rules because nobody wants to take the time to do the right thing and go to the room.

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Vote with your pocketbook and do not do the Race ever again.

 

 

 

And someone tell scot that Stockton and Fresno are not even close to each other.

 

oh they're close to each other alright. crime, drugs, poverty, and white trash retards. they're like inbred brothers. that and they both suck. hugely.

I'm sure the San Diego Megalopolis has areas with the issues just like you describe.

 

BTW, Fresno is landlocked and Stockton is on the Delta. That puts them worlds apart.

 

not surprised that you still don't get what i mean by being "close" together, but then again if i say black, you say white. zzzzzzz.

 

and yes, san diego east might as well be fucking misissippi. el cajon, san marcos, vista escondildo are some of the dumbest areas anywhere.

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oh by the way, when are the geniuses from stockton sailing club going to weigh in???

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I own the other Hobie 33 you raced against. . .

I contacted the SF YRA office and confirmed that Still Crazy does not have a valid 2014 NC-PHRF certificate.

 

Racing with a bigger kite, bigger pole and a better rating and you still ratted him out on a technicality?

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I look at this another way. A while back the Richmond Yacht Club excluded certain boats from a rather well known (in S.F.) and well attended regatta on seemingly contrived pretexts. Pressure from the sailing community, including SA, persuaded the organizing authority (RYC) to reconsider the situation. Eventually, they decided to allow the previously excluded boats. To me,

this improved their regatta: more boats = more sailors= more good times, and mo bettah party afterwards. I don't recall anyone here saying that the OP should grow up and stop complaining about fairness. I don't recall someone here spewing forth any "We don't like your kind 'round here" nonsense. Rather, most SAers felt good that the RYC, in the end, did the right thing and that our nutty community helped them see that particular light.

 

The Stockton folks have the same opportunity here to do the right thing, redress or not. It sounds like they are not going to reconsider their actions. To me, that's dishonorable. The club should realize it made a mistake and be corinthian about the matter. Moreover, if they do decide to be upfront and transparent about rating adjustments, etc. in the future, they will have a much better regatta, with more boats, more sailors, more good times, and mo- bettah party afterwards.

 

This isn't about whining or winning. To be sure, the OP's original article is commendably straight forward, factual, and lacking of any antipathy or vitriol. This is about having a fair regatta, which is a fun regatta for all participants. If people stop coming because they cannot trust the organizing authority or race committee, we ALL lose. I don't always care if I win or loose, which is good because I loose a lot. However, I do want to win or lose on the water, not by a decision made in the back room of the club in the darkness of night (I'm imagining Mayor Daly, Boss Hogg, and Huey Long sitting around chomping on cigars while deciding ratings- I don't know how it really happened).

 

This is ALL about increasing participation; those who don't see it need to take up a sport where the score can be changed after the game. I think they can do that in golf, whatever that is.

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oh by the way, when are the geniuses from stockton sailing club going to weigh in???

 

Apparently they don't know who you are.

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who gives a fuck?

 

 

 

and worrying about a PHRF handicap trophy? please, get a life

 

and you guys need to know it's the Stockton "sailing club", not "yacht club" - and they run this race, and one even worse race -

the south tower race - a race from Stockton to the blackaller bouy near the south tower of the GG bridge, and back to stockton

 

if that is not the worst race ever - then I don't know what is

 

the ditch run is not a world championship, not a national championship, not anything but a delivery in a shipping channel , the "ditch", up to the delta

 

Do you really think the Shampains are worried about a PHRF handicap trophy? You're not nearly that stupid Pete.

 

These guys live and breathe and eat sailing, and if they are bitching, it's because they see a wrong that needs to be righted. We should all be so lucky to race with our dads the way that the mini hip and hip do. They sail events like the Ditch to enjoy each other and get away from the daily pro-sailing grind, neither they nor anyone else should have to see some officious and provincial little prick from a club known for officious little pricks pull some after-race handicap changing shit.

 

Kudos to them for speaking out.

+1

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oh by the way, when are the geniuses from stockton sailing club going to weigh in???

 

Apparently they don't know who you are.

 

right. just like the retards at fresno yc.

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It is very strange indeed:

Rating 2009 - 87

Rating 2013 - 87

Rating 2014 - 87 at the start

Rating 2014 - 78 after the start

 

This is a No Go for sailing in world wide racing.

 

Forever the Stockton "no go" Regatta ?

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who gives a fuck?

 

 

 

and worrying about a PHRF handicap trophy? please, get a life

 

and you guys need to know it's the Stockton "sailing club", not "yacht club" - and they run this race, and one even worse race -

the south tower race - a race from Stockton to the blackaller bouy near the south tower of the GG bridge, and back to stockton

 

if that is not the worst race ever - then I don't know what is

 

the ditch run is not a world championship, not a national championship, not anything but a delivery in a shipping channel , the "ditch", up to the delta

 

Do you really think the Shampains are worried about a PHRF handicap trophy? You're not nearly that stupid Pete.

 

These guys live and breathe and eat sailing, and if they are bitching, it's because they see a wrong that needs to be righted. We should all be so lucky to race with our dads the way that the mini hip and hip do. They sail events like the Ditch to enjoy each other and get away from the daily pro-sailing grind, neither they nor anyone else should have to see some officious and provincial little prick from a club known for officious little pricks pull some after-race handicap changing shit.

 

Kudos to them for speaking out.

+1

Pete is an angry little man pissed off at life and he completely missed the point. That's typical of the 801 area code. On the other hand the Shampains bleed sportsmanship and are great asset to the sailing community.

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Sometimes I think officials hide behind "time limits". According to the rules (which the RC seems to have broken a few) your window to file for redress has closed. But is it against the ruled for the RC to look at your complaint and do the right thing on their own. Otherwise I'd write Latitude 38 and maybe they'll be shamed into doing the right thing. Good Luck!

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Pete is an angry little man pissed off at life and he completely missed the point.

and you miss my point - but perhaps Wash expressed it better

I am sorry still crazy had it's rating changed, but we don't have the whole story yet

Maybe it's just that I don't care about handicap racing

 

but the race is a relatively uninteresting delivery to the Delta with little strategic decisions to be made -

 

--from Wash

 

The DDR is a fun event and a great day of sailing in a most unique type of course setting. I have taken my own boat up there from SoCal and enjoyed the entire experience. The ratings issues are well known and the product really of the independent regional administration of PHRF as it has evolved and grown. I knew this when we did the race, having to use our SoCal OWC rating and sailing against similar boats that utilized W/L equivalent ratings because NorCal did not have OWC Ratings. I did not really care, as the race is more about the experience and camaraderie sailing with family and friends in a great setting with great hosts

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It's not that they don't know who he is ... it's that they know he's nobody.

 

compared to an actual nobody like you, i'm tom fucking cruise. and it is so awesome that you regularly spend time on this nobody's site. you're the best.

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I look at this another way. A while back the Richmond Yacht Club excluded certain boats from a rather well known (in S.F.) and well attended regatta on seemingly contrived pretexts. Pressure from the sailing community, including SA, persuaded the organizing authority (RYC) to reconsider the situation. Eventually, they decided to allow the previously excluded boats. To me,

this improved their regatta: more boats = more sailors= more good times, and mo bettah party afterwards. I don't recall anyone here saying that the OP should grow up and stop complaining about fairness. I don't recall someone here spewing forth any "We don't like your kind 'round here" nonsense. Rather, most SAers felt good that the RYC, in the end, did the right thing and that our nutty community helped them see that particular light.

 

The Stockton folks have the same opportunity here to do the right thing, redress or not. It sounds like they are not going to reconsider their actions. To me, that's dishonorable. The club should realize it made a mistake and be corinthian about the matter. Moreover, if they do decide to be upfront and transparent about rating adjustments, etc. in the future, they will have a much better regatta, with more boats, more sailors, more good times, and mo- bettah party afterwards.

 

This isn't about whining or winning. To be sure, the OP's original article is commendably straight forward, factual, and lacking of any antipathy or vitriol. This is about having a fair regatta, which is a fun regatta for all participants. If people stop coming because they cannot trust the organizing authority or race committee, we ALL lose. I don't always care if I win or loose, which is good because I loose a lot. However, I do want to win or lose on the water, not by a decision made in the back room of the club in the darkness of night (I'm imagining Mayor Daly, Boss Hogg, and Huey Long sitting around chomping on cigars while deciding ratings- I don't know how it really happened).

 

This is ALL about increasing participation; those who don't see it need to take up a sport where the score can be changed after the game. I think they can do that in golf, whatever that is.