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    • UnderDawg

      A Few Simple Rules   05/22/2017

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    • B.J. Porter

      Moderation Team Change   06/16/2017

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sunseeker

Krazy Koutts

51 posts in this topic

It's always the damn money with him. Anyone in SanFran that ever trusted him should have listened to his kiwi haters. Maybe Ernie has a point. Bermuda has to be about the cash cuz it ain't gonna be cheaper there. Is there 2nd blackheart gear on kiwi ebay?

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No respect for GGYC - wonder what the mechanic thinks. Ouch.

 

For a few months rent and union wages? Must be more to the story.

 

SF feels a little lonelier now - back to being an outpost on the edge of the Pacific...

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Not to worry, according to a SF Chronicle article, Coutts said that 'the race organizers would be open to discussing hosting the 36th event in San Francisco - probably in 2021 or thereabouts.' Given his track record, I guess he has a good reason to be confident, but I think the challengers will have something to say about that.

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Not to worry, according to a SF Chronicle article, Coutts said that 'the race organizers would be open to discussing hosting the 36th event in San Francisco - probably in 2021 or thereabouts.' Given his track record, I guess he has a good reason to be confident, but I think the challengers will have something to say about that.

As I said, I now hope Oracle loses this time.

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Payola aside, what this really means is that Oracle doesn't give a shit about regular folks spectating.

 

I there almost every day for the races (including the ones called for normal bay sailing conditions) there was an incredible sense that non-sailors were actually getting excited about sailing. And the sailors that were there were having conversations with non-sailors that the non-sailors were not merely tolerating.

 

Fucking when does that happen?

 

Its a huge loss for popularizing our dying pastime.

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No respect for GGYC...

But what do the members have to say ? The C is too much, they should call it GGYOracle.

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I wonder if there are any regular folks or sailors in Chicago who would like to watch the AC?

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I wonder if there are any regular folks or sailors in Chicago who would like to watch the AC?

if they can do 50 knots off navy pier I might watch it myself. But without wind - it's not going to be the same show.

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It is pathetic and naive to partially blame "union wages" (actually "prevailing wages") on not bringing the AC back to SF.

 

Every US major city construction contractor pays prevailing wages for work in the downtown core, union or not...well maybe not in the hell holes of "freedom" south of the Mason-Dixon line. But certainly in the rest of the country and certainly in Chicago and San Diego, which are not cheap. low-wage cities*. It's the price for smooth running and competent construction.

 

And Bermuda? Construction costs are not going to be cheaper in Bermuda where everything gets shipped in and painted pink before it can be used. So hard costs have nothing to do with this. It's all about the Eurovision money, sponsors and the mega yachts who couldn't be bothered to come to SF.

 

I hope they pick Chicago - the "Windy City" (except when its not). I can hardly wait until a Chicago contractor (or politician) gets his teeth into the funny-talking boys in blazers playing with boats for an ugly trophy.

 


But I'm betting on Bermuda.

 

* Except, I imagine, for drywallers, framers and landscapers in SD. Not the primary trades, perhaps, for putting on the AC.

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Meh......I think I'm over it.

 

Take it to Bermuda and just sail the bloody thing on thundering J classes for all I care.

 

Jasus... Loius Vuitton might just come back for that.

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I think this is so wrong, SF was a great venue. Great wind, great city, great views. And yes, I flew there for the cup, something I had wanted to do all my life, and it was wonderful.

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Just so stupid.

 

Coutts still hasn't learned the very first lesson in negotiation, an absolutely vital skill you need to do ANYTHING in SF. Listen to what the other guys want, and make calculated and negotiated concessions in those areas, without giving up everything yourself.

 

I'm pissed.

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^ Oh I think this is ALL about negotiation. You may not like the tactics, but it absolutely is a tactic. This isn't over by a long shot

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I wonder how fast Oracle will have to clear out of Pier 80 now, and where they will go. What's the cost of all that? Or do they get their rent jacked sky high, negating any "cost savings" elsewhere? Where is the 90's wing these days? Is it in Pier 80? What if they have to move that? To where, at what cost? And the '72's, where are they, and all those parts, including wings? Is Sayanora still there? Seems like it would have been much better to just keep saying "maybe".

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I wonder how fast Oracle will have to clear out of Pier 80 now, and where they will go. What's the cost of all that? Or do they get their rent jacked sky high, negating any "cost savings" elsewhere? Where is the 90's wing these days? Is it in Pier 80? What if they have to move that? To where, at what cost? And the '72's, where are they, and all those parts, including wings? Is Sayanora still there? Seems like it would have been much better to just keep saying "maybe".

I would imagine they had a longterm lease. If not, despite claims of few venues with capacity of 4 bases, if you look beyond the city of SF, the bay area has plenty of room.

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I wonder how fast Oracle will have to clear out of Pier 80 now, and where they will go. What's the cost of all that? Or do they get their rent jacked sky high, negating any "cost savings" elsewhere? Where is the 90's wing these days? Is it in Pier 80? What if they have to move that? To where, at what cost? And the '72's, where are they, and all those parts, including wings? Is Sayanora still there? Seems like it would have been much better to just keep saying "maybe".

I would imagine they had a longterm lease. If not, despite claims of few venues with capacity of 4 bases, if you look beyond the city of SF, the bay area has plenty of room.

 

I have no idea what the lease deal was, though it might actually be public information given the facility. Don't care enough to look. Would just seem to me that even if there is space available to store old boats, it is going to be a major expense to move everything again, if not twice.

 

I think Russell really messed up, big time. He misjudged the market in almost every respect last time, the land deal was a complete cock-up and he let Larry get trashed when the deal Barclay was trying to do was a lot different than presumed, it was just negotiated with exactly the wrong personalities from ACEA.

 

Now, a "fuck you we are getting divorced" email. He could have at least stayed with the times and tweeted it.

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The irony of having a boat race in The Bermuda Triangle hasn't escaped me...

 

...and neither has the tactical significance of considering 2 destinations Emirates doesn't fly to (San Diego & Bermuda).

Is this just an underhanded tactical move to squeeze out the big dollar sponsorship of ETNZ?

 

San Fran was, without doubt, the most exciting venue north of the Equator, if not anywhere.

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The irony of having a boat race in The Bermuda Triangle hasn't escaped me...

 

...and neither has the tactical significance of considering 2 destinations Emirates doesn't fly to (San Diego & Bermuda).

Is this just an underhanded tactical move to squeeze out the big dollar sponsorship of ETNZ?

 

San Fran was, without doubt, the most exciting venue north of the Equator, if not anywhere.

Oh...I love a good conspiracy theory. This one will definitely get some traction.

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...and neither has the tactical significance of considering 2 destinations Emirates doesn't fly to (San Diego & Bermuda).

Is this just an underhanded tactical move to squeeze out the big dollar sponsorship of ETNZ?

 

The same thought had crossed my mind. Anyone who thinks it hasn't occurred to RC shouldn't cross the road without adult supervision.

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Ah, you bunch of pussies, this is just Larry's hardball negotiating techniques. What do they say, it's not a negotiation until someone threatens to walk away?

 

I think Larry and Russell figured the only way to get a sensible response from the powers that be in SF was to walk away. If SF comes crawling back Larry wins, if they don't then Larry goes somewhere else, no problem. No soup for you San Francisco!

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...and neither has the tactical significance of considering 2 destinations Emirates doesn't fly to (San Diego & Bermuda).

Is this just an underhanded tactical move to squeeze out the big dollar sponsorship of ETNZ?

 

The same thought had crossed my mind. Anyone who thinks it hasn't occurred to RC shouldn't cross the road without adult supervision.

 

Then are you willing to back your words up and place a small wager it won't be held in SF ?

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I cannot see thye point in a small wager but I really don't think it will be in SF. There is no way thatSF is going to stump up money and I doubt they will back down on the union wages issue either. Without those 2 things, I cannot see how the defender can choose their own home water. In addition, the problems of last time don't seem to be about to go away. They will still have to do all the reports and get appropriate approvals. They will have to get the whole thing through the board of supervisors (or whatever it was called) and I cannot see them signing up to the use of public money for this. The "benefits" to SF were never successfully spun and from what I read, there were serious questions in the press regarding whether the returns justified the true cost. And last time, fundraising in SF was a failure.

 

With all of that, if a less regulated venue comes in with a serious money offer, it would be very hard to turn down as i don't see Larry wanting to stick his hand in his pocket for this again, even though he can afford it. I suspect he will feel he did the right thing of holding one defense at home and if there is a venue which will get him off the hook and support his claimed aim of the cup becoming self sustaining, why wouldn't he choose it?

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SF didn't play the right game last time and therefore it was always going to be a long shot for them to host again.

 

By dismissing SF so early RC has demonstrated he is playing tough and the other venues had better sharpen up.

 

 

 

I think the TV rights will be really important this time as TV now knows how spectacular the racing can be. So which location would be the best to capture the biggest TV audience? I think Bermuda, as it has a better timezone to capture the european market (and Oracle can stick one to SAP) and it looks nice, and blue, and has some breeze, and is on a body of ocean, and does not have kelp....

 

I assume RC has been negotiating with large media companies to sell the rights (be interesting to hear if RC himself ends up owning some of those). The homeground audience is of little consequence as they contribute little to the $. The dollars are not in the t shirts and ice creams, but in the international TV rights and the ability to leverage your international brand. Not sure how this is structured with proceeds going to RC or to the competing teams (like valencia or F1)

 

So while we may bitch and moan about RC and his dealing of SF. But we will really see just how good he is (or alternatively, how bad) when it comes to what he negotiates for TV rights and how those proceeds are allocated.

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SF didn't play the right game last time and therefore it was always going to be a long shot for them to host again.

 

By dismissing SF so early RC has demonstrated he is playing tough and the other venues had better sharpen up.

 

 

 

I think the TV rights will be really important this time as TV now knows how spectacular the racing can be. So which location would be the best to capture the biggest TV audience? I think Bermuda, as it has a better timezone to capture the european market (and Oracle can stick one to SAP) and it looks nice, and blue, and has some breeze, and is on a body of ocean, and does not have kelp....

 

I assume RC has been negotiating with large media companies to sell the rights (be interesting to hear if RC himself ends up owning some of those). The homeground audience is of little consequence as they contribute little to the $. The dollars are not in the t shirts and ice creams, but in the international TV rights and the ability to leverage your international brand. Not sure how this is structured with proceeds going to RC or to the competing teams (like valencia or F1)

 

So while we may bitch and moan about RC and his dealing of SF. But we will really see just how good he is (or alternatively, how bad) when it comes to what he negotiates for TV rights and how those proceeds are allocated.

 

You do realize that Russell screwed up so badly with the hiring of Worth and Thompson last time, who promised Larry $300 million in various revenue streams, that in the end Larry had to pay NBC to carry the event in the US. Might be a way to get the Kiwi's to pay for coverage, but you are kidding yourself if you think most networks around the world will pay ACEA one dime. Rev Share? Maybe.

 

I'm not sure why there is even a discussion about tv networks rights fees. If I was Russell, I'd be talking to Netflix, or some other service like that. Maybe Red Bull. They already have space on Apple TV. Or just charge $100 per sub and do it yourself. Might be 1 million people willing to pay $100 total for the service, I would.

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If Coutts wants to see union wages run amok and asshole politicians who will meddle with his event then Chicago is his place. I can't imagine he would find a convenient place to run a regatta in the Midwest unless Chicago decides to evict much of it's boating community for a summer.

 

Coutts is just acknowledging that sailing has a limited audience.

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You want to take it to an island? Take it to Hammo

Never going to happen there. They'd be lucky to be able to run an AC45 event from the island

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Coutts is just acknowledging that sailing has a limited audience.

 

If all the turns were to the left, STP was a sponser, and boats had small block motors that burst into flames instead of sinking, me n' Billy Bob would buy a t-shirt.

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I wonder if there are any regular folks or sailors in Chicago who would like to watch the AC?

yes. yes there are.

 

It would be especially interesting with the wsshing-machine wave action combined with the wind shadows. Always fun sailing on a good day...... 35 knots.... reefing.... slamming thru the waves........ becalmed and coasting while bobbing like a cork...... and repeat.

 

The nice thing is that it's fresh water and warm-ish during the summer. no salt spray stinging and rashiness.

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SF mob or Chicago mob, either way, they want their pay.

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Rom is going to do his damdest to get it to chitown, which would be great when it is windy, but we are talking the great lakes, no trades, so in essence you may be looking at delays and maybe some displacement sailing if they go to the low end. Where would they put the bases and who would host?? CYC doesn't have the room for the 65's do they?? Is there anywhere besides gary where teams could set up?? it seems like this will be a south side thing if it happens, so bring your bullet proof vest and go at it I guess... IMHO, like someone said above, it can be done, but you would have to rip out all the cans between belmont and burnham park......

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Read "Capital in the 21st Century." Then this makes perfect sense.

 

With the global concentration of wealth and income (who has it, and who might possibly have a tiny chance of getting it) having become higher than at any time in our history, and with just a few more years of low and non-progressive taxes on capital, ...

 

Russel may well have talked to all the individuals that matter. You are not, and will never become, one of those.

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Read "Capital in the 21st Century." Then this makes perfect sense.

 

Currently stuck around page 270 .. and other stuff keeps coming up, somehow ..

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SF didn't play the right game last time and therefore it was always going to be a long shot for them to host again.

 

By dismissing SF so early RC has demonstrated he is playing tough and the other venues had better sharpen up.

 

 

 

I think the TV rights will be really important this time as TV now knows how spectacular the racing can be. So which location would be the best to capture the biggest TV audience? I think Bermuda, as it has a better timezone to capture the european market (and Oracle can stick one to SAP) and it looks nice, and blue, and has some breeze, and is on a body of ocean, and does not have kelp....

 

I assume RC has been negotiating with large media companies to sell the rights (be interesting to hear if RC himself ends up owning some of those). The homeground audience is of little consequence as they contribute little to the $. The dollars are not in the t shirts and ice creams, but in the international TV rights and the ability to leverage your international brand. Not sure how this is structured with proceeds going to RC or to the competing teams (like valencia or F1)

 

So while we may bitch and moan about RC and his dealing of SF. But we will really see just how good he is (or alternatively, how bad) when it comes to what he negotiates for TV rights and how those proceeds are allocated.

 

You do realize that Russell screwed up so badly with the hiring of Worth and Thompson last time, who promised Larry $300 million in various revenue streams, that in the end Larry had to pay NBC to carry the event in the US. Might be a way to get the Kiwi's to pay for coverage, but you are kidding yourself if you think most networks around the world will pay ACEA one dime. Rev Share? Maybe.

 

I'm not sure why there is even a discussion about tv networks rights fees. If I was Russell, I'd be talking to Netflix, or some other service like that. Maybe Red Bull. They already have space on Apple TV. Or just charge $100 per sub and do it yourself. Might be 1 million people willing to pay $100 total for the service, I would.

 

If anyone thinks there's hundred's of millions in TV rights fees, they need to be institutionalized. In spite of all the promises, don't forget how many dead hours and cancelled races there were in AC 34. While the TV PRODUCTION value increased significantly, I'd bet the commercial viability of yacht racing on TV didn't move at all. You'll always have Italy, NZ, and may be a few others willing to pay for the feed, but likely not enough to cover the production costs. And it would have been a time buy in the US again next time (hell, in three years who knows what the landscape will look like but it likely won't be better for the AC).

 

To me, this just confirms that there's no consistency in the strategy. First it was all about fans (stadium racing and TV but no national connection), now likely to be a remote location with limited access by fans but more emphasis on nationality. And a qualifying format that only makes sense with more than 10 or so teams (otherwise whats the difference in the Qualifiers vs Playoffs?) when only 4/5 teams are really likely.

 

Good luck with Chicago unions, costs, etc. by the way...

 

What this event needed was stability and a "leapfrog" mentality. If Larry wants to commercialize the Cup, the best thing he and his lawyers could do is 1) announce SF early as the next host venue, and 2) find a way to have all participants agree to a protocol that enabled the establishment of the succeeding AC event (in this case 2020/21). Then teams could have a real planning horizon. That would require NZ to agree that if it wins AC35, it would have the opportunity to host AC37 (whether defender or not after AC 36) and so on. Any team wanting to join the AC would have to agree to that event organization format..

 

Oh well...I'll watch the races and I'll watch a bunch of overpaid folks give Larry shitty advice....again.

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And last time, fundraising in SF was a failure.

 

My take is that folks in the Bay Area, including the tech stalwarts in Silicon Valley, did not see value in underwriting the hobby of one of the biggest tech assholes around. Knowing that he has billions of dollars in his coffers, why support him?

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and one more thing...failing all of the above, I would argue that the AC has become the domain of the truly elite. So put it where you want and fuck everybody else..cater to multi millionaires and billionaires almost exclusively and some of the brands that sell to them. Forget commercialization and go "old school" AC...just stop telling us how you're going to appeal to the masses...

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Ah, you bunch of pussies, this is just Larry's hardball negotiating techniques. What do they say, it's not a negotiation until someone threatens to walk away?

 

I think Larry and Russell figured the only way to get a sensible response from the powers that be in SF was to walk away. If SF comes crawling back Larry wins, if they don't then Larry goes somewhere else, no problem. No soup for you San Francisco!

 

This is a pretty good point, although russell sort of did this way back in feb maybe? when he announced that they were opening it up to other venues because SF did not offer terms. he said he felt they wouldn't change their minds and without that, no go... city held firm thinking they had the upper hand based on the october and the sheer awesomeness of the venue... oops...

 

that was step 1 and it obviously didn't work. step 2 just happened. so lets see if SF bends or finds some creative way to please nimbys and RC. ed lee seemed a bit ambivalent post facto and another official said that some things about the bid "can not be changed".

 

and of course, the probability that some other tech heavy hitter or with his buddies would step in to help the city save face, is low due to the low regard that many of these people have for LE and Oracle. so larry spent a pot load last time and wants to make it commercially viable through tough negotiations, someone else stepping in to sponsor the difference for the benefit of LE and RC... i'd probably just feel dirty if i had the money and were considering it. or maybe not, the goal of making it commercial is a good one and SF does have legitimate concerns about seeing to be pandering to rich dudes...

 

i'm pretty fucking pissed about it...

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The San Francisco political establishment is saying "Good riddance." I can't see AC35 in SF without divine intervention.

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I can't see AC35 in SF without divine intervention.

That could be arranged .. I have some contacts across the Tiber, just let me know how much you're willing to spend ..

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The San Francisco political establishment is saying "Good riddance." I can't see AC35 in SF without divine intervention.

Nothing is impossible before the venue is signed and official.

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The San Francisco political establishment is saying "Good riddance." I can't see AC35 in SF without divine intervention.

Nothing is impossible before the venue is signed and official.
That will happen long before the SFBOS ever even gets started into it. Lee can offer all he wants but now the long approval process by everyone else won't even begin. It's a dead horse, very unfortunately.

 

All I can think is that the reason RC is pressing for a venue that is far too soon for SF to put it through the gears is for the exact same reason GD wants it soon: Certainty for Sponsors.

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^

Bermuda might rock for BA - be ugly for ETNZ.

 

So what's not to like? (for Coutts)

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Bermuda might rock for BA - be ugly for ETNZ.

AFAIK BA has said he's raised around half his budget but the only sponsors named have been individuals, not companies. I know some expect JP Morgan to be a headline sponsor but afaik there has been no such announcement. I'd be interested if anyone has information to the contrary.

 

So I don't think we know what venue would best suit BAR. Personally, I'm hoping for Bermuda.

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You think Larry actual cares if the cup is self-sustaining? Those are just words he uses to keep RC happy thinking he is going to get a permanent payout. Larry wants to win and is a delegator That is all he is interested in and RC wins America's Cups. For Larry it is whatever keeps Russell happy. All the decisions RC has made on his own, with advice from his yes men and handpicked pals from Toad Swallow, Kiwiland, or wherever the fuck he's from who he has brought up for the payday.

 

RC must have understood SF was on to the grift and weren't going to get shaken down like the last time. So for Russell, getting out of SF to green pastures, with a new crowd of rubes to fleece, was job one. Plus, SF just does not need the Cup. Chicago doesn't either, not enough to cut the kind of deals that would let Russell and his cousins college room mate (or whoever this time) skim off a few million or ten. San Diego or Bermuda might be that desperate.

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We run over 5 pedestrians a week in SF, and not one of them has been Coutts. We really do need to up our game.

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We run over 5 pedestrians a week in SF, and not one of them has been Coutts. We really do need to up our game.

 

He only stays in the US less than a 183 days a year for tax reasons, so better put more people on it.

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I can't see AC35 in SF without divine intervention.

That could be arranged .. I have some contacts across the Tiber, just let me know how much you're willing to spend ..

@pjh my gods are cheaper then Xlot's god... I can give you my Western Union info...... Yet time is of essence... we have chickens to buy and sacrifices to prepare.... Get your $ together....

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It's always the damn money with him. Anyone in SanFran that ever trusted him should have listened to his kiwi haters. Maybe Ernie has a point. Bermuda has to be about the cash cuz it ain't gonna be cheaper there. Is there 2nd blackheart gear on kiwi ebay?

What a stupid remark.

 

Of course it money you idiot! Its the AC.

 

If you are employed to retain the cup then you will work the rules as every other defender has done and ensure you have a bias to retain it but enough to get a challenger. They have a challenger plus a possible 2 more.

 

Job done. Well done russ.

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The San Francisco political establishment is saying "Good riddance." I can't see AC35 in SF without divine intervention.

Nothing is impossible before the venue is signed and official.
That will happen long before the SFBOS ever even gets started into it. Lee can offer all he wants but now the long approval process by everyone else won't even begin. It's a dead horse, very unfortunately.

 

All I can think is that the reason RC is pressing for a venue that is far too soon for SF to put it through the gears is for the exact same reason GD wants it soon: Certainty for Sponsors.

This article explains how convoluted the approval process in San Francisco is:

 

How Burrowing Owls Lead To Vomiting Anarchists (Or SF’s Housing Crisis Explained)

http://techcrunch.com/2014/04/14/sf-housing/?src=longreads

 

 

The sophistication with which neighborhood groups wield San Francisco’s arcane land-use and zoning regulations for activist purposes is one of the very unique things about the city’s politics.
But the city’s political leadership doesn’t want to change it, because it fears backlash from powerful neighborhood groups, which actually deliver votes.

 

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I wonder if there are any regular folks or sailors in Chicago who would like to watch the AC?

 

I certainly would. I'm not in Chicago but I'm within driving distance. Wouldn't it be nice....

 

If they don't hold the cup itself in Chicago, then I hope to see an event there.

 

In the Sailing Anarchy forum, there is a long thread about Chicago:

 

Chicago Area III

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=118907

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