Westerly Anarchy

[rogerball0 3]

 

Roger and Panope? One can only dream. Unfortunately I don't think I'd live to see the finished boat if they started on it next week.

Just caught up on this thread. Beautiful work Rodger. Clearly a labor of love (just my style).

 

Bob is correct (at least pertaining to me). I do like to 'pace' myself on the longer projects. I dabbled for 14 years with Panope hard aground in my backyard.

 

Steve

 

 

See now i feel better Steve , cheers, yes pace is everything - mines glacial but you know i was thinking about this just yesterday whilst sat in the bilge, i didn't have the skills i have now when i started this project so its taken, what, 6 years to acquire the little knowledge i've gained and thats whats set me on this slightly perverse course of un-doing things then re-doing them.

 

I cant accept the fact if i know a better way to do something why wouldn't i do it, problem is its normally after i've done the same job once or twice and as you say it makes for a long project but its just the way some of us are plus i like the idea after i'm gone leaving a little artifact created with my stamp on it is somewhere on this blue dot.

 

Unless the nieces and nephews sink it

 

Is there any images or Blog of Panope i could take a look at?

[Panope 109]

Rodger, here is the whole story:

 

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f55/happiness-is-a-warm-spool-gun-101572.html

 

Steve

[elias_sol82 0]

Hi again Roger, I was thinking of making the rudder about 5-6 inches longer. I saw that you made one by yourself, did you alter the original dimensions?. Rudder dimensions of mine are about 30' height and 18' width (with the skeg). It seems too short compared with many other rudders of similar 26' boats.

[Ajax 878]

Does the rudder stall or lose grip when you heel over?

[elias_sol82 0]

Does the rudder stall or lose grip when you heel over?

It is pulling me to the wind ( you call it helm rudder i think) and it doesn't "listen" over 20 degrees of heeling . Making it a little bit bigger i think maybe it will help

[rogerball0 3]

Rodger, here is the whole story:

 

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f55/happiness-is-a-warm-spool-gun-101572.html

 

Steve

 

Cheers Steve.

 

Hi again Roger, I was thinking of making the rudder about 5-6 inches longer. I saw that you made one by yourself, did you alter the original dimensions?. Rudder dimensions of mine are about 30' height and 18' width (with the skeg). It seems too short compared with many other rudders of similar 26' boats.

 

It was a long time ago, 2008. I think from memory i kept the surface area similar to the original, although the shape wasn't great so i'll be revisiting that part of the project soon to finesse it a little, your boats handling characteristics may vary depending on the design of rudder, there are at least three types for our boats whilst they were in production, two were balanced spades of differing shapes and the last iteration was a semi balanced skeg hung affair. Google 'Centaur rudder design.'

 

cheers

[rogerball0 3]

Does the rudder stall or lose grip when you heel over?

From memory mine would gripe upto windward and stall, only paying the mainsheet out got the boat moving again, this was normally in a strong breeze with too much main up, will have to consult the Bobster about shape nearer the time.

 

Back to business, had three days on these and are now ready to glass to the hull, got them all cut,scribed and bonded, took all day today to sand in the round-overs and fillet them:

 

All done to the laser level

 

3/8" round over hand-sanded top and bottom on each stringer and a 1" fillet added to aide cloth draping over the lot

 

 

Was gonna do 3 layers of 600g bi-ax cloth 150mm past the top and bottom of each stringer, just need to knock off some lumps in the fillets then we're all good to go.

 

 

That should make it stiffer plus i've still got nearly two sheets of corecell left so will see if theres enough to do the bulkheads up the front, wouldn't hurt to be lighter in the bow.

[elias_sol82 0]

Ok I ll try to make it bigger. There is only a way to find out if it will benefit the handling and speed. By the way your work has historical dimensions, you could write a book of this restoration!

[MiddayGun 28]

Don't be too harsh on your boats fellas.

Isn't it true that these boats were built as in-shore sailors, and built to a price point for the masses?

 

They weren't meant to be blue-water boats were they? Sort of like our Catalinas or Hunters? They aren't perfect, but it seems to me that they've hung in there for decades of sailing and have fulfilled their intended purpose.

 

I hear you.

But we aren't talking about the difference between an ocean going yacht, although I believe the Sadler may have taken part in JOG races back in the day.

 

Basic stuff like backing pads for stanchions, or even penny washers, and general shoddy workman ship. I'll say for mine at least the lay up was good, and the bulkheads and cabin furniture has been done to a good standard. Plugged holes etc. So why skimp on a few washers and backing pads? Boggles the mind!

 

Roger, are you going fully open plan now?

That would certainly give you a lovely roomy cabin.

[rogerball0 3]

Dunno MG i have been thinking about layouts again . One was to move the heads to the forepeck along with storage bins either side and hanging (wet) lockers and then have a palatial saloon but then you're essentially making it a two berther, i looked at bringing the heads down by the companionway but you'd need to offset it.

 

I'm open to ideas by the way, if anyone has any suggestions i'd like to hear them as it is quite an opportunity to have a blank canvas, it is a massive boat with nothing in it, gonna think some more, i'd like the capacity of 4 berths, just thinking of friends and family as well as guests in general.

 

The layout i'm copying is a French spec that Westerly did or rather i've only seen it in a French article about the Centaur:

 

 

Galley to Starboard and pull out settee to port. Need some ideas really.

 

cheers

[rogerball0 3]

Ok I ll try to make it bigger. There is only a way to find out if it will benefit the handling and speed. By the way your work has historical dimensions, you could write a book of this restoration!

 

Cheers Elias its a thought mate.

[Steam Flyer 1,861]

 

Does the rudder stall or lose grip when you heel over?

From memory mine would gripe upto windward and stall, only paying the mainsheet out got the boat moving again, this was normally in a strong breeze with too much main up, will have to consult the Bobster about shape nearer the time.

 

Back to business, had three days on these and are now ready to glass to the hull, got them all cut,scribed and bonded, took all day today to sand in the round-overs and fillet them:

 

All done to the laser level

 

3/8" round over hand-sanded top and bottom on each stringer and a 1" fillet added to aide cloth draping over the lot

 

 

Was gonna do 3 layers of 600g bi-ax cloth 150mm past the top and bottom of each stringer, just need to knock off some lumps in the fillets then we're all good to go.

 

 

That should make it stiffer plus i've still got nearly two sheets of corecell left so will see if theres enough to do the bulkheads up the front, wouldn't hurt to be lighter in the bow.

 

 

Roger that looks like a great job- should add a lot of stiffness in more than one way, localized in the hull ( 'oilcanning') and the overall torsion on the hull while sailing. And no it certainly would not be a bad thing to make her lighter up front (or in the stern either). One thing I am interested in: bonding to old poly/glass layups.Did you do much grinding into the old laminate?

 

Rudders- making the rudder a little deeper will certainly help, as will adding to the front or leading edge of the rudder as 'balance area.' However one must remember that this will add to the loading on the rudder head and the stock although the force on the tiller may not feel any different. Another thing to try would be adding winglets to the rudder tip

 

FB- Doug

[rogerball0 3]

Hi Doug longitudinal strength was one of the reasons for starting again, seemed to me the internal liner was the 'stringer' and with that removed there could be problems, so a lighter stiffer Centaur is no bad thing, you're bang on.

 

Oh mate, 'did i do much grinding', tons, i was wading in the stuff, i pulled four rubble sacks worth of dust out the boat not to mention a pile of dead bulkheads and grp liner, i had a routine for each day, bit severe, i'd go full-face respirator on, tape around my head then hood over mask tape that joint too, (after dousing my face and hands in baby powder), then gloves on tape the joints same with the boots tape them up so you're already sweating like apig before you've even lifted a finger.

 

Then get to the boat - boats now sealed with poly sheet and two dust sheets over the deck, powers bought in via the companionway and taped up (no leaks) then it was heads-down for 7 hours each day or until the filters clogged in the respirator, the sign to leave would be a headache either from dehydration or a lack of oxygen (filters clogging) then you knew it was time to hop out.

 

It took six days to cut and grind everything back, this was the last (easy) day:

 

 

Think it was the second day of the grinding i had dust piled half way up that small bulkhead in the front there, i would be shovelling it up every day, i was quite strict, i'd go out for an hour afterwards to let the dust settle then get back in to clean up ready to do it all again the next day, didn't feel itchy at all but very claustrophobic sealed into a suit with ear defenders on and cant see your hand in front of your face - very disorientating.

 

Weapon of choice: 4" grinder with a backing pad attachment to take 24Grit sanding discs. They will eat anything plywood, GRP, flesh & bone, i remember ripping out old engine compartment and having one jam and then release into my thigh, god i winced! I did slip once whilst grinding the kevlar tape out the forepeak with it & at full speed, that woke me up, after that i remembered to keep wiping the dust off the visor so basically you're grinding one handed, learnt to repsect that tool as it has a locking power button so it stays on even when it falls from your hand!

 

Regarding the rudder i'm gonna add a bit of depth to it but i also need to reinforce internally where the tube bolts between the hull and cockpit as previously it got its strength from the liner moulding so theres potential for torsion on the tube as the 'bracing' the liner provided is gone so will have to think about that, i like the winglets idea.

 

Cheers

[SloopJonB 3,967]

Just looking at that pic made me itch.

[Rantifarian 7]

You are a machine is Roger.

I wouldn't reccomend trying a similar approach if you ever go somewhere warm though, if you tried the same method i would give it 2 hours before you had heat exhaustion, 3 for full blown heatstroke.

 

What does your current rudder look like?

[rogerball0 3]

Oh the joys of boat building, i do heartily recommend a full face mask forthat sort of work, it made all the difference.

 

Heres the new rudder:

 

 

Heres the old:

 

 

Heres how i made the new one, although i did have intentions of making one from a mould, i called it my oil tanker rudder, it never got past the plug stage:

 

 

cheers

[olaf hart 308]

Dunno MG i have been thinking about layouts again . One was to move the heads to the forepeck along with storage bins either side and hanging (wet) lockers and then have a palatial saloon but then you're essentially making it a two berther, i looked at bringing the heads down by the companionway but you'd need to offset it.

 

I'm open to ideas by the way, if anyone has any suggestions i'd like to hear them as it is quite an opportunity to have a blank canvas, it is a massive boat with nothing in it, gonna think some more, i'd like the capacity of 4 berths, just thinking of friends and family as well as guests in general.

 

The layout i'm copying is a French spec that Westerly did or rather i've only seen it in a French article about the Centaur:

 

 

Galley to Starboard and pull out settee to port. Need some ideas really.

 

cheers

You might find these layouts useful

 

http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=1284

[elias_sol82 0]

Oh the joys of boat building, i do heartily recommend a full face mask forthat sort of work, it made all the difference.

 

Heres the new rudder:

 

 

Heres the old:

 

 

Heres how i made the new one, although i did have intentions of making one from a mould, i called it my oil tanker rudder, it never got past the plug stage:

 

 

cheers

Is that piece of skeg necessary? It doesn't support the rudder.and how do you call a rudder like that? skegspaded?

[dylan winter 557]

 

Oh the joys of boat building, i do heartily recommend a full face mask forthat sort of work, it made all the difference.

 

Heres the new rudder:

 

 

Heres the old:

 

 

Heres how i made the new one, although i did have intentions of making one from a mould, i called it my oil tanker rudder, it never got past the plug stage:

 

 

cheers

Is that piece of skeg necessary? It doesn't support the rudder.and how do you call a rudder like that? skegspaded?

 

 

I have always thought that was a bit odd on westerlies

 

the early ones - like mine, have no skeg, just the rudder flopping around

 

then they put the skeg in but apart from improving the water flow a little I have no idea what it is for

 

type centaur rudder into google images and a shot of one will come up

 

D

​

ps - for some reason cruising anarchy will not let me post links on this laptop - fine on the desktop - I assume I have to press a button somewhere but cannot for the life of me find it

[Presuming Ed 171]

Are you using IE?

[dylan winter 557]

Are you using IE?

 

just upgraded to w10 - but it was a prob before then. Now firefox refuses to install on here

 

apologies for anal thread drift chaps

 

 

what the fudge... the rudder shot worked

 

you should be in tec support

[rogerball0 3]

 

Oh the joys of boat building, i do heartily recommend a full face mask forthat sort of work, it made all the difference.

 

Heres the new rudder:

 

 

Heres the old:

 

 

Heres how i made the new one, although i did have intentions of making one from a mould, i called it my oil tanker rudder, it never got past the plug stage:

 

 

cheers

Is that piece of skeg necessary? It doesn't support the rudder.and how do you call a rudder like that? skegspaded?

 

No support, more just a bit of protection from obstacles, rope, that sort of thing, not too much of a problem on yours seeing as the fin keel's in the way, bilge keelers leave the rudder in the firing line abit.

[Bob Perry 581]

That looks great Roger. Now close that gap up at the skeg. Make sure the trailing egde is not radiused. It looks like you reduced the balance. How come? I don;t think on a boat your size this would be a problem.

[rogerball0 3]

That looks great Roger. Now close that gap up at the skeg. Make sure the trailing egde is not radiused. It looks like you reduced the balance. How come? I don;t think on a boat your size this would be a problem.

 

Hi Bob i dont know why i did that? Only realised this when putting these photos together for Elias, i was thinking if i bought the leading edge down more vertical that would help increase the balance of the foil wouldn't it?

 

Yes the trailing edge needs a bit of work so will sharpen that up, skeg - got it,

 

cheers.

[Steam Flyer 1,861]

Just looking at that pic made me itch.

 

Yep, looks like a yucky job. I have only done a little interior grinding (re-tabbing bulkheads) and it's a horrible job. Why do boatbuilders smear their interiors with chalky crap? The boat I did had carpet glued over that and the glue had crystallized into hard globs that tended to tear the sanding discs. Of course none of it had any structural properties worthy of the name.

 

FB- Doug

[Bob Perry 581]

Roger

Sometimes your eye tells you the right thing to do. The amount of balance can be critical on boats over 40' but you should be fine unless you already have too much helm. Looks like you have around 8% and I do like that shape. It's sexy!

[rogerball0 3]

Roger

Sometimes your eye tells you the right thing to do. The amount of balance can be critical on boats over 40' but you should be fine unless you already have too much helm. Looks like you have around 8% and I do like that shape. It's sexy!

Cheers Bob,

 

(Art vs Science, Form vs Function), have spent the last few days reading a handful of papers on foil design (made my head ache) and think i know what shape the rudder should be but i like the shape it is too, i'd be the first to admit it was a loose copy of the last Centaur's built' rudder shape combined with a couple of other shapes i found, gives it a little character, if you say the shapes sexy and modding it will make little difference - i'll take that mate.

[rogerball0 3]

 

Just looking at that pic made me itch.

 

Yep, looks like a yucky job. I have only done a little interior grinding (re-tabbing bulkheads) and it's a horrible job. Why do boatbuilders smear their interiors with chalky crap? The boat I did had carpet glued over that and the glue had crystallized into hard globs that tended to tear the sanding discs. Of course none of it had any structural properties worthy of the name.

 

FB- Doug

 

Glue grinding -That was my 2007 Doug, whilst theboat was still in the yard - i set about about cleaning all the vinyl off the inside of the boat, cleared the local motor factors out of 'tar remover' solvent after reading somewhere it got the glue residue off , which it did but also got totally baked on the stuff, forgot to open the hatches, found myself slumped on the saloon floor laughing my arse off, got with it eventually.

 

FWIW i always thought Westerly's approach to headlining was Einsteins insanity definition made real, 12000 boats built from '64 to '00 and everyone fitted with foam-backed vinyl and everyone of them sagged then fell down, its so well known a problem that it has its own name - 'The Westerly Droop'.

 

[Kirwan 261]

 

 

Just looking at that pic made me itch.

 

Yep, looks like a yucky job. I have only done a little interior grinding (re-tabbing bulkheads) and it's a horrible job. Why do boatbuilders smear their interiors with chalky crap? The boat I did had carpet glued over that and the glue had crystallized into hard globs that tended to tear the sanding discs. Of course none of it had any structural properties worthy of the name.

 

FB- Doug

 

Glue grinding -That was my 2007 Doug, whilst theboat was still in the yard - i set about about cleaning all the vinyl off the inside of the boat, cleared the local motor factors out of 'tar remover' solvent after reading somewhere it got the glue residue off , which it did but also got totally baked on the stuff, forgot to open the hatches, found myself slumped on the saloon floor laughing my arse off, got with it eventually.

 

FWIW i always thought Westerly's approach to headlining was Einsteins insanity definition made real, 12000 boats built from '64 to '00 and everyone fitted with foam-backed vinyl and everyone of them sagged then fell down, its so well known a problem that it has its own name - 'The Westerly Droop'.

 

 

 

Maybe I'm missing something here.... is that a chainplate on top of the portlight?

 

I don't see the chainplate obscuring the window in the interior shots, is the windowframe structural?

[MiddayGun 28]

 

 

 

Just looking at that pic made me itch.

 

Yep, looks like a yucky job. I have only done a little interior grinding (re-tabbing bulkheads) and it's a horrible job. Why do boatbuilders smear their interiors with chalky crap? The boat I did had carpet glued over that and the glue had crystallized into hard globs that tended to tear the sanding discs. Of course none of it had any structural properties worthy of the name.

 

FB- Doug

 

Glue grinding -That was my 2007 Doug, whilst theboat was still in the yard - i set about about cleaning all the vinyl off the inside of the boat, cleared the local motor factors out of 'tar remover' solvent after reading somewhere it got the glue residue off , which it did but also got totally baked on the stuff, forgot to open the hatches, found myself slumped on the saloon floor laughing my arse off, got with it eventually.

 

FWIW i always thought Westerly's approach to headlining was Einsteins insanity definition made real, 12000 boats built from '64 to '00 and everyone fitted with foam-backed vinyl and everyone of them sagged then fell down, its so well known a problem that it has its own name - 'The Westerly Droop'.

 

 

 

Maybe I'm missing something here.... is that a chainplate on top of the portlight?

 

I don't see the chainplate obscuring the window in the interior shots, is the windowframe structural?

 

 

Un-reinforced chain plates were a standard feature of British boat building!

AFAIK that is literally it, no backing. They probably added a couple of extra layers of CSM.

[mrming 1]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Just looking at that pic made me itch.

Yep, looks like a yucky job. I have only done a little interior grinding (re-tabbing bulkheads) and it's a horrible job. Why do boatbuilders smear their interiors with chalky crap? The boat I did had carpet glued over that and the glue had crystallized into hard globs that tended to tear the sanding discs. Of course none of it had any structural properties worthy of the name.

 

FB- Doug

Glue grinding -That was my 2007 Doug, whilst theboat was still in the yard - i set about about cleaning all the vinyl off the inside of the boat, cleared the local motor factors out of 'tar remover' solvent after reading somewhere it got the glue residue off , which it did but also got totally baked on the stuff, forgot to open the hatches, found myself slumped on the saloon floor laughing my arse off, got with it eventually.

 

FWIW i always thought Westerly's approach to headlining was Einsteins insanity definition made real, 12000 boats built from '64 to '00 and everyone fitted with foam-backed vinyl and everyone of them sagged then fell down, its so well known a problem that it has its own name - 'The Westerly Droop'.

 

Maybe I'm missing something here.... is that a chainplate on top of the portlight?

 

I don't see the chainplate obscuring the window in the interior shots, is the windowframe structural?

Un-reinforced chain plates were a standard feature of British boat building!

AFAIK that is literally it, no backing. They probably added a couple of extra layers of CSM.

That's your legendary "brick shithouse" build quality right there. My terrible French boat on the other hand has hefty rods connecting the back of the chainplates to a large frame glassed into the hull. No problem winding in the necessary rig tension in this froggy death trap.

[rogerball0 3]

Spot on MG but thats not the scariest bit guys, on mine they'd actually cut away part of the coachroof corner reinforcement to 'flush in' where the chainplates bolt through into the inside top of the coachroof:

 

 

In the above picture it shows itself as the triangular shadow covered in chopped strand above the window, below is a picture with the csm removed, apologies as its not very clear, so your inners if like mine attach through 6mm thick cabin side and your caps bolt down directly onto the side deck with 50mm penny washers, needless to say everything on mine now attaches through the side of the hull onto 12" square 8mm thick solid epoxy/biax plates bonded into the hull using thickened wests.

 

 

Outside:

 

 

Inside:

 

 

To bring a little balance, it was early days of technology etc, etc so may well have amended the specs through the boats production cycle, but on mine............interesting.

[MiddayGun 28]

Spot on MG but thats not the scariest bit guys, on mine they'd actually cut away part of the coachroof corner reinforcement to 'flush in' where the chainplates bolt through into the inside top of the coachroof:

 

 

 

To bring a little balance, it was early days of technology etc, etc so may well have amended the specs through the boats production cycle, but on mine............interesting.

 

That new chainplate area looks excellent! Very strong, is it solid laminate? And if so, how many layers?

With the shrouds moved outboard you might even be able to get a pointing reasonably well with inboard sheeting.

[Cruiser2B 7]

Just found this build. Wow what craftsmanship! Very very nice, love seeing an old plastic classic saved and restored to better than new.

[IStream 1,034]

Wow. They could've at least put the plate in between the window cutouts so there'd be a continuous load path. OTOH, if they'd been thinking about load paths they would've been thinking about loads and they would've done what you did in the first place.

[rogerball0 3]

Found this, it turns out the windows got made smaller and positioned further aft so inners got attached to something a little more substantial:

 

 

MG: The chainplate plates are 8mm thick, 16 layers of 450g bi-ax cloth - complete overkill on my part, then went over the whole lot with 5 layers of decreasing sized panels of the same spec cloth to tie it into the hull and deck - if it fails it'll take a good part of the boat with it.

 

 

C2B: Cheers mate - 4ksb's Rule!

 

IStream: It seems to have been rectified later in the boats production cycle although I would say that the design flaw on mine is more a reflection of the era's mindset when polyester was first came to prominence - something Hugo De Plessis refers to in 'Fibreglass Boats' - as these "rediculous claims" made of the materials strength and properties which led to its growth not only in the marine industry but just about everywhere else from the early '60's to the late '70's.

 

Heres some ad's from the time:

 

 

 

More brochures below:

 

https://www.scribd.com/user/187106010/roger

[Bob Perry 581]

Roger:

Have you made your chainplate yet?

[rogerball0 3]

Roger:

Have you made your chainplate yet?

 

Nope not yet mate, why?

 

*EDIT*

 

I've put these on, which will get blown in the same colour as the hull:

 

[Bob Perry 581]

Roger:

My inclination would be to give the plate a slight amount of taper and to take it as low as you can above that chine line. I know it's a small detail but for my eye those small details add up.

Are your shrouds 6mm?

[rogerball0 3]

Hi Bob, will do, the plate on the inside goes down that far so not a problem, yes the shrouds are 6mm, so will get on that on the weekend, thanks for looking in.

 

Cutting yards of cloth at present ready for laminating the top hat tomorrow,...............right peel ply next.

[IStream 1,034]

Love those old brochures, Roger. Thanks for that.

[rogerball0 3]

Love those old brochures, Roger. Thanks for that.

My Pleasure, some kindly soul has uploaded a load of brochures for almost every model Westerly ever made to the Westerly Owners Wiki page, all free to download as PDF's forgot the link this morning, here it is:

 

http://www.westerly-owners.co.uk/westerlywiki/index.php?title=Westerly_Brochures

 

cheers

[SomethingElse 1]

Brochures for almost every model Westerly ever made... The Westerly J24. Built with Loyd's certified material. It would be interesting to compare build quality of Westerly built and a USA built J24 from the same era.

[SloopJonB 3,967]

I always liked the GK24 & GK29 - both very racy looking.

[Steam Flyer 1,861]

Brochures for almost every model Westerly ever made... The Westerly J24. Built with Loyd's certified material. It would be interesting to compare build quality of Westerly built and a USA built J24 from the same era.

 

As somebody who has poked around in the guts of about a half dozen US-built J-24s, it's difficult to imagine the Westerly built ones aren't a lot better.

 

FB- Doug

[SomethingElse 1]

Not sure what Westerly used on their J24s...But on their own design they usually used odd shaped bits of scrap in lieu of washers for keel attachments. Mine look like old school can opener under each nut.

[SloopJonB 3,967]

The GK24 showed up here at the same floating show as the Yamaha 25II. It (GK) looked nearly as good from the dock but suffered badly by comparison in terms of construction. The interior looked like it had been built by a reasonably competent amateur whereas the Yammie was the first true "factory built" boat I'd ever seen - similar quality to their bikes etc..

[Bob Perry 581]

I love the old brochures too. I can still see my old collection of brochures from when I was 15 years old.

 

I sent away for the Cheoy Lee brochures in 1963. A couple of weeks later the phone wrang one night and it was a guy asking to speak to Bob Perry. That was my Dad's name too. Soon my Dad said, "It's for you." It was Gary Horder, the Seattle CL dealer. He wanted to sell me a boat. I was really embarrassed. I explained that I was just a kid interested in yacht design and not in a position to buy a boat. Mr. Horder sent me a huge envelope full of all the CL brochures. Obvioiusly I never forgot that. Many years later Gary and I became friends.

 

I launched a lot of dreams with those old brochures.

 

Roger: How thick is your chainplate material?

[MiddayGun 28]

I always liked the GK24 & GK29 - both very racy looking.

 

The GK24s and to some extent I believe the 29s were raced extensively over here in the UK.

 

I can remember being onboard my Dads GK24 'Di Rich' as a young kid for a lot of races, and later when older and able to actually participate on his GK29, I seem to remember both won a fair amount. Good sailing boats.

[rogerball0 3]

Bob: the chainplates are spec'd 8mm but the ply mock up was done in 9.5mm as was the slot in the strake so 10mm is probably what I'll go for.

[elias_sol82 0]

Be aware of the chainplates! my westerly came that close on getting dismasted on a race 6 months ago. The chainplate got up out of the deck!!! It wasn't the original plate though. Previous owners had changed the plate's positions cause they had a new mast (after losing the original again on a race) with mast cross aft angled so the cap shrouds moved aft. I made new ones with a sandwich of plywood and steel plates.(http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=170780&view=&hl=&fromsearch=1)

[rogerball0 3]

Be aware of the chainplates! my westerly came that close on getting dismasted on a race 6 months ago. The chainplate got up out of the deck!!! It wasn't the original plate though. Previous owners had changed the plate's positions cause they had a new mast (after losing the original again on a race) with mast cross aft angled so the cap shrouds moved aft. I made new ones with a sandwich of plywood and steel plates.(http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=170780&view=&hl=&fromsearch=1)

Sounds bad Elias, fwiw i had someone do the sums for me regarding exact placement of hardware.

 

Bob, chainplates were spec'd 8mm but the ply mock-up and slot in the strake is 10mm so will get them made 10mm, apologies for the tiny writing above, replied via my phone.

[Bob Perry 581]

Roger: 10mm will be overkill but chainplates are a good place to be overkill.

[Tucky 25]

I love the old brochures too. I can still see my old collection of brochures from when I was 15 years old.

 

I sent away for the Cheoy Lee brochures in 1963. A couple of weeks later the phone wrang one night and it was a guy asking to speak to Bob Perry. That was my Dad's name too. Soon my Dad said, "It's for you." It was Gary Horder, the Seattle CL dealer. He wanted to sell me a boat. I was really embarrassed. I explained that I was just a kid interested in yacht design and not in a position to buy a boat. Mr. Horder sent me a huge envelope full of all the CL brochures. Obvioiusly I never forgot that. Many years later Gary and I became friends.

 

I launched a lot of dreams with those old brochures.

 

Roger: How thick is your chainplate material?

That is a great story Bob. I've been on both sides of that kind of thing, where honesty is returned with a favor and the favor gets returned one day as well. Even more than sailing, this is what makes my life worth living:-)

[Ajax 878]

Now that's some truth- There's dreams in those brochures, even the old ones.

[rogerball0 3]

That was one of my favourite past times as a kid - going to Southampton Boat Show and jumping on every boat i was allowed on (which was pretty much everything back in the mid 80's) gorping at stuff the old man could never have afforded, then collecting the brochures, for an 11 year old i pretty much knew the displacement of every Westerly, Moody & Sadler going not to mention alot of the French boats, loved it.

 

Went to Southampton Boat Show couple of years back having not been for something like ten years talk about a frosty reception, different times i guess.

 

Had quite a successful day today, started early - got the heaters on about 8am came back indoors for breakfast while the sheds, epoxy and bench all started to heat up - i say bench as i was looking at the Carbon cutter project photos from a while back and remember a heated bench being mentioned. Now seeing as its 2 degrees C outside i need all the help i can get so rigged up one of my old Hot-Vac contraptions and slid the heater mat under a piece of 4mm ply which i would wet the cloth out on - worked a treat, i wound it up initally to 80 degrees c to get through the ply then after an hour bought it down to 60 degrees - kept everything workable.

 

Bench after todays battle ready for the port side.

 

Got the starboard side done today, went round three times with 600g bi-ax cloth in ever decreasing sized panels starting with 450mm then 400mm and finishing with 350mm all topped off with peel ply:

 

 

Just got to do it all again for the port side;

 

 

I'm in need of beer!

[SloopJonB 3,967]

Now that's some truth- There's dreams in those brochures, even especially the old ones.

 

Fixed.

[IStream 1,034]

Roger, I get the distinct impression that when you finally get her back in the water and under sail that you'll be in for a letdown. Could you passion for sailing ever match your passion for refurbing this boat?

[Steam Flyer 1,861]

... ... ...

Had quite a successful day today, started early - got the heaters on about 8am came back indoors for breakfast while the sheds, epoxy and bench all hstarted to heat up - i say bench as i was looking at the Carbon cutter project photos from a while back and remember a heated bench being mentioned. Now seeing as its 2 degrees C outside i need all the help i can get so rigged up one of my old Hot-Vac contraptions and slid the heater mat under a piece of 4mm ply which i would wet the cloth out on - worked a treat,

... ... ... ...

I'm in need of beer!

 

Roger, thanks for showing these pics. Great idea on the heater too, I may work up something similar for our basement; in the past I have muddled with heat lamps which do not produce a controllable temp nor evenly distribute the heat.

 

The layup over that stringer looks very good- at first I was going to say something snarky about the top edge & gravity but after a 2nd look, that's just peel ply, right? One tip (although I wouldn't be surprised if you already have something better) an inexpensive way to get good solid layup and edges laying down in awkward spots is to use paper towels or the like, secure with blue tape over the corners and roller it down carefully. Blots the resin thru the peel ply and leave no bubbles anywhere. A bit bulky when you throw it in the trash bin though.

 

FB- Doug

[rogerball0 3]

Roger, I get the distinct impression that when you finally get her back in the water and under sail that you'll be in for a letdown. Could you passion for sailing ever match your passion for refurbing this boat?

 

Thats an interesting one IStream I hope its not a let down, one of the things i'm hoping will bring a smile is the rig that'll be getting stepped, could be a laugh in a bit of a blow:

 

 

To answer your question, I dunno - i like making things i guess just as much as sailing, i think working with your hands for a living does this to you, i've always liked finding out how things work and if i can improve them. FWIW i've had semi-serious conversations with family members who tell me it may well feel like a bereavement when its finished but for me the day i can pull the sheds down will bring me a lot of joy, you wouldn't believe how much time and money i've spent over the years keeping that bloody boat shed upright, also to not have to worry about my finances quite in the way i do at the moment, that will be a relief.

 

 

 

 

... ... ...

Had quite a successful day today, started early - got the heaters on about 8am came back indoors for breakfast while the sheds, epoxy and bench all hstarted to heat up - i say bench as i was looking at the Carbon cutter project photos from a while back and remember a heated bench being mentioned. Now seeing as its 2 degrees C outside i need all the help i can get so rigged up one of my old Hot-Vac contraptions and slid the heater mat under a piece of 4mm ply which i would wet the cloth out on - worked a treat,

... ... ... ...

I'm in need of beer!

 

Roger, thanks for showing these pics. Great idea on the heater too, I may work up something similar for our basement; in the past I have muddled with heat lamps which do not produce a controllable temp nor evenly distribute the heat.

 

The layup over that stringer looks very good- at first I was going to say something snarky about the top edge & gravity but after a 2nd look, that's just peel ply, right? One tip (although I wouldn't be surprised if you already have something better) an inexpensive way to get good solid layup and edges laying down in awkward spots is to use paper towels or the like, secure with blue tape over the corners and roller it down carefully. Blots the resin thru the peel ply and leave no bubbles anywhere. A bit bulky when you throw it in the trash bin though.

 

FB- Doug

 

 

No worries Doug, and thanks for the tip i got loads of bubbles in the peel ply today, i will give that go on the port side, my old Hot Vac system does have its uses, this was when i was drying the hull with them:

 

 

I have one permanantly stationed in a cabinet where i keep all my resins to heat them and the others spare, so good to use when needed.

[Steam Flyer 1,861]

 

Roger, I get the distinct impression that when you finally get her back in the water and under sail that you'll be in for a letdown. Could you passion for sailing ever match your passion for refurbing this boat?

 

Thats an interesting one IStream I hope its not a let down, one of the things i'm hoping will bring a smile is the rig that'll be getting stepped, could be a laugh in a bit of a blow:

 

... ...

 

Looks great to me, a big asymmetric spinnaker like that will be marvelous going downwind (or at least broad reaching) in light air.

 

Also, using absorbent paper over peel ply- don't let any of the paper get over any of the hull. It will stick HARD and it's very difficult to get off. That's why I use painter's tape (blue tape) to position it and hold the corners down. But once you get the trick of it, you can produce lay-ups almost as good as vacuum-bagging.

 

FB- Doug

[IStream 1,034]

A new rig/sails will definitely spice things up. I've got an asymmetric on order for my boat and can't wait to see what she'll do in our notoriously light Pacific NW summer breezes.

[Rantifarian 7]

Looking at that asso, adding a bit more depth to the rudder like you mentioned might be a handy thing! Looks like it should be a bucket of laughs downhill

[elias_sol82 0]

Looking at that asso, adding a bit more depth to the rudder like you mentioned might be a handy thing! Looks like it should be a bucket of laughs downhill

Roger, as i said I ll make mine taller (altering the original). I'm going to run some shapes on a CFD software first to see what happens.

 

Bob, as i can tell you are involving in yacht design right? Is something more that i should search form the CFD from just better LR ?

[Rantifarian 7]

Elias, CFD will tell you many wonderful stories about rudder design, and some of them will even be true. For most small boats, cruising boats in particular, the best section to use will be an NACA 00XX. There are others that are lower drag, particularly at higher speeds, but they tend to stall earlier, as well as being much less tolerant to inaccurate profile or rough finish.

 

I dunno if that Bob Fella really knows boats, or if he has just been pretending really, really well for all these years.

[elias_sol82 0]

Elias, CFD will tell you many wonderful stories about rudder design, and some of them will even be true. For most small boats, cruising boats in particular, the best section to use will be an NACA 00XX. There are others that are lower drag, particularly at higher speeds, but they tend to stall earlier, as well as being much less tolerant to inaccurate profile or rough finish.

 

I dunno if that Bob Fella really knows boats, or if he has just been pretending really, really well for all these years.

Thanks a lot for the info!

But the rudder has already it's original shape and i was thinking to add some on it's bottom . If the original shape is different from your suggestion ( NACA 00XX) what should i do? maybe CFD can help?

[Rantifarian 7]

Maybe it can. Have you measured the section to get a rough idea of what shape it is? You will need to do that to start with the CFD.

The most important parts of the foil are the first 1/4-1/3, and the trailing edge. Get the leading edge and start of the blade right, and have a nice straight, fine trailing edge and you will be 90% of the way there.

[elias_sol82 0]

here is the bottom profile, from where i m thinking of building it extra

[Rantifarian 7]

So the important points on your foil:

The maximum thickness. This looks to be 7.5cm based on your sketch? This is often a direct result of the rudder stock diameter inside the blade.

The ratio between the maximum thickness and the chord length of the foil. In your case, it is 7.5/43, so 17.44%. Sand back some antifoul and call in 17%

The position of the maximum thickness. From your sketch, it looks like 12/43, so 27.9%.

 

An NACA 00XX foil has its maximum thickness about 30% behind the trailing edge, so you are close.

The XX is the thickness/chord ratio, so you would compare your foil to an NACA 0017 type foil.

The leading edge of all NACA 00XX foils is circular, rather than sharp or an ellipse, which makes it quite easy to fair.

Your rudder looks like it probably began life as something close to a proper shape, and could be faired back to one.

Have a play with the foil generator here, and there is heaps of information on the 0018 series here, including lift/drag profiles.

There are heaps of spreadsheets, autocad files, all sorts of formats available to play with the basic 00XX series foils. I have a bunch of them somewhere on this machine, but I'll be buggered if I can find them

[rogerball0 3]

Forgot where i read it, but 9 - 15% foil thickness is apparently a good place to start when drawing a profile, my first attempt was NACA 0015:

 

 

Google 'NACA profiles', this may help you, as one of Bob's comments above alluded to, your eye will be a good indicator of what will and wont work. CFD, thats pretty cool - me - piece of plywood and a pencil drawn 1:1 plus lots of standing back and pulling faces at it.

 

Rant: i may have a fiddle with the shape of mine yet when i tidy up the trailing edge on it, more grip wouldn't hurt.

 

cheers

[Bob Perry 581]

15% is high but it will work fine. On a racing boat you would go thinner.

 

Sorry but that foil Elias posted looks awful to my eye.

 

NACA 0012 is the foil I most often used for cruising boats.

[Rantifarian 7]

15% is high but it will work fine. On a racing boat you would go thinner.

 

Sorry but that foil Elias posted looks awful to my eye.

 

NACA 0012 is the foil I most often used for cruising boats.

I think a lot of the awefulness is just the sketch Bob, at least I hope so. The numbers looked nicer than the sketch.

 

I thought stock diameter often ends up being a practical limitation on the thinness of rudders, particularly the high aspect racy ones?

What was that magic number for placement of the stock in a balanced rudder again, 17%?

[rogerball0 3]

Bob: Just went and measured the black rudder: max thickness is 50mm and the chord is 515mm, so around 10% - positively racy!

 

Elias: all i did was get a handful of NACA profiles off the interwebs blew em up on my computer to the chord length i wanted and printed them out, also because my brain isn't that big i found it easier to understand the shape i was creating drawing it out full size on a panel

 

Hence this abomination:

 

[elias_sol82 0]

15% is high but it will work fine. On a racing boat you would go thinner.

 

Sorry but that foil Elias posted looks awful to my eye.

 

NACA 0012 is the foil I most often used for cruising boats.

 

 

 

15% is high but it will work fine. On a racing boat you would go thinner.

 

Sorry but that foil Elias posted looks awful to my eye.

 

NACA 0012 is the foil I most often used for cruising boats.

I think a lot of the awefulness is just the sketch Bob, at least I hope so. The numbers looked nicer than the sketch.

 

I thought stock diameter often ends up being a practical limitation on the thinness of rudders, particularly the high aspect racy ones?

What was that magic number for placement of the stock in a balanced rudder again, 17%?

 

 

 

Bob: Just went and measured the black rudder: max thickness is 50mm and the chord is 515mm, so around 10% - positively racy!

 

Elias: all i did was get a handful of NACA profiles off the interwebs blew em up on my computer to the chord length i wanted and printed them out, also because my brain isn't that big i found it easier to understand the shape i was creating drawing it out full size on a panel

 

Hence this abomination:

 

 

 

Ranti, the scetch was created by stepping the rudder bottom on a piece of carton and then drawing the perimeter with a pen, real size.

 

 

Bob, wow, i checked your site and i think i almost insulted you saying " as i can tell you are involving in yacht design right? " ... you are a designer!

 

Roger, my skills i believe aren't good enough for making a new one , so i ll try improving the existing, i ll bring up more measurements of it.

 

I am just wondering if i cant make it better

[Bob Perry 581]

Elias:

Yes, I do a wee bit of yacht design on the side when I am not engaged in my regular job as an operatic baritone.

 

Start improving that section by knocking off the point on the leading edge. Take a long look at NACA 0012.

 

Ranti:

here are no "magic numbers". They vary with the type of boat and it's overall characteristics. If you are talking about balance 17% would be most probably too much on a boat under 40'. Start at 10% and see what that gives you. It will depend on how well balanced the boat is.

[SemiSalt 110]

Elias:

Yes, I do a wee bit of yacht design on the side when I am not engaged in my regular job as an operatic baritone.

 

Start improving that section by knocking off the point on the leading edge. Take a long look at NACA 0012.

 

Said to be NACA 0012. The dot on the nose sort of obscures the point, or rather, obscures the place where there isn't actually a point.

 

[Bob Perry 581]

I'm not crazy about the first 20% of that shape. Leading edge is wrong. The 0012 in my book, THEORY OF WING SECTIONS, look a bit fuller forward. Leading edge radius is to be 1.58% of chord.

[SemiSalt 110]

Here is another:

 

[Bob Perry 581]

Semi:

For my money that is a far better representation of the 0012 foil. Thanks. Note how full the leading edge is.

[Rantifarian 7]

That big radius is going to be a lot more achievable and repeatable on an antifouled rudder.

 

Elias, does your rudder chord get smaller as you move down the rudder, but Max thickness stays the same? That might explain why you have such a thick section.

 

The pivot point for a balanced rudder was what I was referring to Bob. Interesting that you reduce balance for a smaller boag, but it does make sense now that I hear it

[Chasm 388]

airfoiltools.com is a free database with 1600+ publicly available foils, a comparison tool that includes several polars and a template plotter.

 

Here are the NACA 0012 variants (symmetrical only)

 

 

Each foils includes data files for import into other programs and a list of similar foils.

A pretty neat way to spend even more time on foil selection.

[Bob Perry 581]

I like the second one n0012-1L. That's closest to the foil I use.

[elias_sol82 0]

Here are some dimensions.

ey-rudder-dimensions.pdf

[Bob Perry 581]

The important thing is to get that point off the leading edge.

[SloopJonB 3,967]

I've known for a long time that foils should not have sharp leading edges but just out of curiosity, what negative effect does a sharp leading edge on a foil have?

 

It does seem counter-intuitive for it to be blunt and rounded.

[Steam Flyer 1,861]

I've known for a long time that foils should not have sharp leading edges but just out of curiosity, what negative effect does a sharp leading edge on a foil have?

 

It does seem counter-intuitive for it to be blunt and rounded.

 

Stalling

The flow around an airfoil doesn't hit it head-on all the time. As the angle of attack changes, or even as the flow changes, the point at which flow separates to go around the top or the bottom will also change. So if the point of separation or stagnation is at a sharp leading edge, good/fast. But if that point shifts then the flow has to go around a corner, bad/slow... worse, the flow will become turbulent right at the leading edge and it will stall violently & suddenly.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stall_%28fluid_mechanics%29

 

Hope this helps

 

FB- Doug

[elias_sol82 0]

The important thing is to get that point off the leading edge.

Sorry, my english aren't sharp enough to understand . " Get that point of"?

 

Pfffff ! I just wanted my rudder built taller and know i m studying fluid dynamics!

 

At the bottom finish should the profile stays the same or it would be better to round it a little bit?

[Grey Dawn 19]

Here's a guide to foil selection.

 

http://www.mothboat.com/building/foils

 

"An excellent choice for most craft, is a realistically accurate and fair NACA (National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics) 0012 airfoil, where maximum board thickness is 12% of the fore/aft length (chord length). Maximum thickness is located about 30% of the chord length measured from the leading edge"

[SloopJonB 3,967]

 

I've known for a long time that foils should not have sharp leading edges but just out of curiosity, what negative effect does a sharp leading edge on a foil have?

 

It does seem counter-intuitive for it to be blunt and rounded.

 

Stalling

The flow around an airfoil doesn't hit it head-on all the time. As the angle of attack changes, or even as the flow changes, the point at which flow separates to go around the top or the bottom will also change. So if the point of separation or stagnation is at a sharp leading edge, good/fast. But if that point shifts then the flow has to go around a corner, bad/slow... worse, the flow will become turbulent right at the leading edge and it will stall violently & suddenly.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stall_%28fluid_mechanics%29

 

Hope this helps

 

FB- Doug

 

 

Cheers.