rogerball0

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I knew someone would take exception to my generalization.

 

Wasn't really taking exception to it, rather it illustrated my whole point or thoughts - read the second line of my post.

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Elias, cool your boots - if its to do with anything relating to Westerly Yachts and their improvement its more than welcome here. Keep posting!


No problem Roger. I am waiting to see tubercles on TP 52's. Then I might be a believer.

 

I thought TP52's had died a death, *EDIT* thought everyone was now foiling in multihulls? ;)

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Elias, cool your boots - if its to do with anything relating to Westerly Yachts and their improvement its more than welcome here. Keep posting!

 

No problem Roger. I am waiting to see tubercles on TP 52's. Then I might be a believer.

 

I thought TP52's had died a death.

I ll post the conclusions and hopefully the improved rudder pictures here again!

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Think you might be on to something Bob - found out the original paper regarding Tubercles was written 12 years back so i guess the handful that have had their rudders changed out isn't exactly a ringing endorsement plus i guess if WOXI hasn't got it, its probably not a goer?

 

Elias if you lived in the UK i'd fix your rudder for you - i nearly bought one like yours on ebay and rudder shaft aside its thickness (and therefore profile) is pretty massive in relation to its chord - it did put me off a little. Looking at the profile you've drawn of it i'd knock the sides down (get the thickness out of it) and as mentioned plenty of times now - lose the tip on the leading edge, all do-able with a 4" grinder, small pack of wests and biaxial cloth, oh yeah and a copy of the NACA 0012 profile.

 

Best of luck and post some pics when you get going on it.

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elias:

I saw the tubercle changes to the rudder as they were happening. ICON lives in my backyard. I also saw at least two technical papers on the subject about the same time. This very old news to me. I do understand the theory of how the tubercles work. I can see it. But if they are s great why are we not seeing them on the TP52's the boats I consider leaders in boat speed technology for monohulls.

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I think rambler 88 has tubercles, or some other form of leading edge tumour on the rudders. Dual rudders, and attempting to keep the windward one clear of the water, might lead down a different design path to a conventional rudder design.

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I think rambler 88 has tubercles, or some other form of leading edge tumour on the rudders. Dual rudders, and attempting to keep the windward one clear of the water, might lead down a different design path to a conventional rudder design.

 

Plus much more offshore - reaching - oriented than TPs.

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Dark Star (http://www.vanisle360.com/wp/dark-star/) was up on stands when I had my boat hauled and I noticed she had tubercles on her rudder. Unfortunately, I didn't grab a photo but as I recall they were covering the whole length of the leading edge.

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you know,

 

I think that if a man is going to update a Centaur with a new sail plan, profiled keels and ignore the obvious benefits of tubercles then he is really only doing half a job

 

Icon%20new%20rudder-thumb-400x533-105.jp

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I am one man upgrading a Pembroke (single keel Centaur). The sail plan is upgraded with 2 jibs and 2 genoas, 2 sym spinakers and a full battened main. Keel isn't upgraded , just restored in a very smooth finishing. As about rudder going to tubercles is something exotic to me cause , first i haven;t heard before about it neither seen and second it seems hard to manufacture it- (nope buying it isn't an option)

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Tubercles are humpback whale inspired for higher attack angle without stalling under some conditions. A journal article for the scientifically inclined is at http://icb.oxfordjournals.org/content/51/1/203.full.

F1.medium.gif

 

Another bio-inspired idea is riblets from sharkskin to reduce hydrodynamic drag due to turbulence. It was used on "Stars and Stripes" in 1987 to recapture the America's cup. This was later prohibited. Then a special 3M tape form NASA research with tiny grooves along the direction of flow was applied. It was also in Speedos for Olympic swimmers. Now they are looking at it for paint on airliners and freighters. I could see another even more expensive bottom paint for racers in the future. You may not want a fair hull after all.

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you know,

 

I think that if a man is going to update a Centaur with a new sail plan, profiled keels and ignore the obvious benefits of tubercles then he is really only doing half a job

 

Icon%20new%20rudder-thumb-400x533-105.jp

 

don't forget the flush-fitting seacocks.....................................

 

WP_003648.jpg

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you know,

 

I think that if a man is going to update a Centaur with a new sail plan, profiled keels and ignore the obvious benefits of tubercles then he is really only doing half a job

 

Icon%20new%20rudder-thumb-400x533-105.jp

 

don't forget the flush-fitting seacocks.....................................

 

WP_003648.jpg

 

 

 

Of course - the flush through hulls....

 

how could I have forgotten?

 

I have booked the BB near you for the April launch

 

D

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Really?, what with Bull looking at flights and you B&B's, my arse is starting to twitch now, think its nerves,...................... or i could be in season - one of the two. :unsure:

 

Just spent the morning in Church (no, no it hasn't got that bad, just paid work) maybe i should've asked for some 'help'.

 

*EDIT* Your honour i'd like to change my plea regarding the boats completion to: 'This year' not 'April' as previously mentioned, apologies if this has wrecked any betting syndicates. :D

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Really?, what with Bull looking at flights and you B&B's, my arse is starting to twitch now, think its nerves,...................... or i could be in season - one of the two. :unsure:

 

Just spent the morning in Church (no, no it hasn't got that bad, just paid work) maybe i should've asked for some 'help'.

 

*EDIT* Your honour i'd like to change my plea regarding the boats completion to: 'This year' not 'April' as previously mentioned, apologies if this has wrecked any betting syndicates. :D

 

Uh-huh. The inevitable "scope creep". Aren't you the guy who designed and built the F-35 for the Pentagon? The costs and timetable seem right...

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Not so much 'creep' more a full-on sprint - thought i'd get my excuses in early :) , in all seriousness i still have two months of paid work to finish up-country which would leave about three weeks to finish the boat which is do-able if i was on under-the-counter medication, still i'll push on.

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Just busting your balls, my friend. It's a lose-lose situation for you. If you never finish, we'll bitch that you're not sailing. If you finish and sail it, we'll bitch that there's no interesting boat progress to watch.

You're fucked, mate. ;)

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So True Ajax,

 

Still got a bit more whittled off the branch today, had a mini disaster with the port side stringer, think it was very cold through the night as all the peel ply bubbled up and off so spent late yesterday and early this morning finishing off the wash & sand-a-thon, all okay now but really wanted the two small bulkheads in today - no matter. As us Brits tend to do, i'm watching the weather as its like a chiller cabinet in the shed plus i dont wanna introduce condensation into the mix blasting the boat with heat especially in this weather:

 

Shop windows this morning:

 

WP_20160120_09_42_47_Pro.jpg

 

Stringers now all ready to go:

 

WP_20160119_16_40_56_Pro.jpg

 

So tomorrow will cut an sheath the bulkheads up front and get them in the bag, the corecell i have is good enough for the two bulkheads fore and aft of the forward tank platform but not for much else so then onto 12mm ply for the other bits and pieces.

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Roger, what is your new mast section dimensions & weight-kg/m? Mine is a 17-11 cm section about 4,2 kg/m and length 10m.

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So True Ajax,

 

Still got a bit more whittled off the branch today, had a mini disaster with the port side stringer, think it was very cold through the night as all the peel ply bubbled up and off so spent late yesterday and early this morning finishing off the wash & sand-a-thon, all okay now but really wanted the two small bulkheads in today - no matter. As us Brits tend to do, i'm watching the weather as its like a chiller cabinet in the shed plus i dont wanna introduce condensation into the mix blasting the boat with heat especially in this weather:

 

Shop windows this morning:

 

WP_20160120_09_42_47_Pro.jpg

 

Stringers now all ready to go:

 

WP_20160119_16_40_56_Pro.jpg

 

So tomorrow will cut an sheath the bulkheads up front and get them in the bag, the corecell i have is good enough for the two bulkheads fore and aft of the forward tank platform but not for much else so then onto 12mm ply for the other bits and pieces.

 

 

observing Roger's progress and attention to detail is like watching a cathedral being built

 

slowly and inexorably the monument to perfection emerges from the dust

 

this is one amazing amazing project

 

D

 

PS - I have postponed my B and B booking to watch the launch and moved it to May 22nd - hope that helps

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So True Ajax,

 

Still got a bit more whittled off the branch today, had a mini disaster with the port side stringer, think it was very cold through the night as all the peel ply bubbled up and off so spent late yesterday and early this morning finishing off the wash & sand-a-thon, all okay now but really wanted the two small bulkheads in today - no matter. As us Brits tend to do, i'm watching the weather as its like a chiller cabinet in the shed plus i dont wanna introduce condensation into the mix blasting the boat with heat especially in this weather:

 

Shop windows this morning:

 

WP_20160120_09_42_47_Pro.jpg

 

Stringers now all ready to go:

 

WP_20160119_16_40_56_Pro.jpg

 

So tomorrow will cut an sheath the bulkheads up front and get them in the bag, the corecell i have is good enough for the two bulkheads fore and aft of the forward tank platform but not for much else so then onto 12mm ply for the other bits and pieces.

 

 

observing Roger's progress and attention to detail is like watching a cathedral being built

 

slowly and inexorably the monument to perfection emerges from the dust

 

this is the most amazing project

 

D

 

 

Hear, hear!

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Roger, what is your new mast section dimensions & weight-kg/m? Mine is a 17-11 cm section about 4,2 kg/m and length 10m.

 

i had to trace the spars cross-section for the designer think it was something similar 165 x 105mm. If i go for a new spar it'll be a z spars section Z351 it weighs 2.305 lbs/ft (3.430kg/m) interestingly the old proctor spar is lighter; 2.244lbs/ft, (3.339kg/m) hope that helps mate.

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Roger, what is your new mast section dimensions & weight-kg/m? Mine is a 17-11 cm section about 4,2 kg/m and length 10m.

 

i had to trace the spars cross-section for the designer think it was something similar 165 x 105mm. If i go for a new spar it'll be a z spars section Z351 it weighs 2.305 lbs/ft (3.430kg/m) interestingly the old proctor spar is lighter; 2.244lbs/ft, (3.339kg/m) hope that helps mate.

 

Thanks Roger, I am seeking to replace it cause is too thick for its lenght = stiff. In case i can't replace it , i was wondering those extra 15-20 kg of weight if they have a much bad (simple bad is certain) impact on the way she sails.

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Um...it took nearly 140 years to structurally complete the Cattedrale di Santa Maria di Fiore (Il Duomo).

Let's hope Roger doesn't get that crazy.

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Um...it took nearly 140 years to structurally complete the Cattedrale di Santa Maria di Fiore (Il Duomo).

Let's hope Roger doesn't get that crazy.

It's probably too late in terms of time spent per unit volume.

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So True Ajax,

 

Still got a bit more whittled off the branch today, had a mini disaster with the port side stringer, think it was very cold through the night as all the peel ply bubbled up and off so spent late yesterday and early this morning finishing off the wash & sand-a-thon, all okay now but really wanted the two small bulkheads in today - no matter. As us Brits tend to do, i'm watching the weather as its like a chiller cabinet in the shed plus i dont wanna introduce condensation into the mix blasting the boat with heat especially in this weather:

 

Shop windows this morning:

 

WP_20160120_09_42_47_Pro.jpg

 

Stringers now all ready to go:

 

WP_20160119_16_40_56_Pro.jpg

 

So tomorrow will cut an sheath the bulkheads up front and get them in the bag, the corecell i have is good enough for the two bulkheads fore and aft of the forward tank platform but not for much else so then onto 12mm ply for the other bits and pieces.

 

 

observing Roger's progress and attention to detail is like watching a cathedral being built

 

slowly and inexorably the monument to perfection emerges from the dust

 

this is one amazing amazing project

 

D

 

PS - I have postponed my B and B booking to watch the launch and moved it to May 22nd - hope that helps

 

 

You didn't state the year.

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Roger, what is your new mast section dimensions & weight-kg/m? Mine is a 17-11 cm section about 4,2 kg/m and length 10m.

 

i had to trace the spars cross-section for the designer think it was something similar 165 x 105mm. If i go for a new spar it'll be a z spars section Z351 it weighs 2.305 lbs/ft (3.430kg/m) interestingly the old proctor spar is lighter; 2.244lbs/ft, (3.339kg/m) hope that helps mate.

 

Thanks Roger, I am seeking to replace it cause is too thick for its lenght = stiff. In case i can't replace it , i was wondering those extra 15-20 kg of weight if they have a much bad (simple bad is certain) impact on the way she sails.

 

 

Heres the tracing i took of the mast base to help with the engineering calcs:

 

img002.jpg

Not quite sure what you want to achieve Elias, the only reason i maybe changing the mast for a new one is down to cost and as mentioned above the z spar mast is actually heavier than the old proctor one so dont think keeping the old mast will have a determental effect on your boats handling.

 

The postie did turn up in the end - got my first two foam/glass bulkheads in and tabbed, no rotten plywood or hardboard here anymore:

 

WP_20160123_17_24_57_Pro.jpg

 

Was thinking about doing the rest in foam until i saw the cost :blink: so the rest will now be 12mm 'marine' ply

 

Like a cathedral, yeah................ i see that - although i think a cathedral would probably point better upwind :D , regarding launch dates who knows, just too many life-varibles at the moment. Have been checking out the cost of non-blushing epoxy too to speed things along as i'm almost at the bottom of the latest c-pack, (i think this is the third one that i've said this will be the last one i need) and i'm bored peel plying only to find it needs washing and sanding afterwards.

 

Anyone recommend a brand?

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Thanks for that,I was told that 15kg of difference in the mast weight is almost a man sitting on the upwind side of the boat ( how you call that place in one word in English???)

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Thanks for that,I was told that 15kg of difference in the mast weight is almost a man sitting on the upwind side of the boat ( how you call that place in one word in English???)

 

Windward.

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Roger, what is your new mast section dimensions & weight-kg/m? Mine is a 17-11 cm section about 4,2 kg/m and length 10m.

 

i had to trace the spars cross-section for the designer think it was something similar 165 x 105mm. If i go for a new spar it'll be a z spars section Z351 it weighs 2.305 lbs/ft (3.430kg/m) interestingly the old proctor spar is lighter; 2.244lbs/ft, (3.339kg/m) hope that helps mate.

 

Thanks Roger, I am seeking to replace it cause is too thick for its lenght = stiff. In case i can't replace it , i was wondering those extra 15-20 kg of weight if they have a much bad (simple bad is certain) impact on the way she sails.

 

 

Heres the tracing i took of the mast base to help with the engineering calcs:

 

img002.jpg

Not quite sure what you want to achieve Elias, the only reason i maybe changing the mast for a new one is down to cost and as mentioned above the z spar mast is actually heavier than the old proctor one so dont think keeping the old mast will have a determental effect on your boats handling.

 

The postie did turn up in the end - got my first two foam/glass bulkheads in and tabbed, no rotten plywood or hardboard here anymore:

 

WP_20160123_17_24_57_Pro.jpg

 

Was thinking about doing the rest in foam until i saw the cost :blink: so the rest will now be 12mm 'marine' ply

 

Like a cathedral, yeah................ i see that - although i think a cathedral would probably point better upwind :D , regarding launch dates who knows, just too many life-varibles at the moment. Have been checking out the cost of non-blushing epoxy too to speed things along as i'm almost at the bottom of the latest c-pack, (i think this is the third one that i've said this will be the last one i need) and i'm bored peel plying only to find it needs washing and sanding afterwards.

 

Anyone recommend a brand?

 

 

I will also be interested in recommendations for non-blushing epoxy; have been thinking abot switching away from WEST System for a while now. But you say you have a problem with blush -under- the peel ply? As I understand it, that should not happen (except where the peel ply bubbles, which causes that & other problems).

 

Interior looks awesome RB!

 

FB- Doug

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Thanks for that,I was told that 15kg of difference in the mast weight is almost a man sitting on the upwind side of the boat ( how you call that place in one word in English???)

 

Windward.

 

The place and the man doing that?

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So i'm not the only one then Doug?

 

What with the cost of West Systems here in the UK and the work it creates compared to other brands i've read about in the US i'm actively looking for a non-blushing system. The problem i have along with many here in the UK is choice: its pretty much SP or Wests and that's it, a supplier i use is distributing MAS Epoxy but based on volume its 50% dearer than Wests! :blink:

 

When i google non-blushing epoxy in the US you've got System Three, Raka & MAS and a few independents making their own brews, wish we had that kinda choice here in the UK? Have been looking at 207 hardener as its low to non-blush depending on the conditions so might give that a go seeing as i have a cupboard full of wests additives.

 

Expensive business this boating lark.........................

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What sort of working time are you getting with your west system Roger? I've been trying to resheathe my rudder lately, and its too fucking hot. 15 minutes and its gone, using slow hardener. I've been looking about for ultra slow, but none stocked locally, might have to order some in

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Put your pot in cool water while you work.

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Put your pot in cool water while you work.

 

It's hard to get it lit afterwards.

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Thanks for that,I was told that 15kg of difference in the mast weight is almost a man sitting on the upwind side of the boat ( how you call that place in one word in English???)

 

Windward.

 

The place and the man doing that?

 

 

We just call it being out on the rail, don't think there is a one word that fits it all in.

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What sort of working time are you getting with your west system Roger? I've been trying to resheathe my rudder lately, and its too fucking hot. 15 minutes and its gone, using slow hardener. I've been looking about for ultra slow, but none stocked locally, might have to order some in

 

Rant: In the fairly cold conditions here in Blighty ive been using fast hardener: the cloth is tacky but quite stiff after about 30 mins, what i found when glassing the stringers in was that to keep the epoxy 'live' i went round wetting the cloth again before laying the peel ply on and even then used a heat gun to fire the epoxy back up to get the peel ply to take.

 

I experienced similar problems to yours when sheathing my engine bearers a couple of summers back: had fans blowing air into the compartment whilst i tried to roll out big panels of cloth with sod-all access, i found in temps of 25 - 30 degrees c just getting all the epoxy out the pot and onto the cloth helped but that wasn't before throwing a couple of litres away from me forgetting either tools or not turning the fans on so when i got back in the boat it was just in time to see a mixing cup fizzing and popping, literally a matter of minutes and all with slow hardener too.

 

Engine room nightmare:

 

WP_001731.jpg

 

WP_001751.jpg

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Thanks for that,I was told that 15kg of difference in the mast weight is almost a man sitting on the upwind side of the boat ( how you call that place in one word in English???)

 

Windward.

 

The place and the man doing that?

 

 

We just call it being out on the rail, don't think there is a one word that fits it all in.

 

In my area is called " trash " or " junk" !

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So i'm not the only one then Doug?

 

What with the cost of West Systems here in the UK and the work it creates compared to other brands i've read about in the US i'm actively looking for a non-blushing system. The problem i have along with many here in the UK is choice: its pretty much SP or Wests and that's it, a supplier i use is distributing MAS Epoxy but based on volume its 50% dearer than Wests! :blink:

 

When i google non-blushing epoxy in the US you've got System Three, Raka & MAS and a few independents making their own brews, wish we had that kinda choice here in the UK? Have been looking at 207 hardener as its low to non-blush depending on the conditions so might give that a go seeing as i have a cupboard full of wests additives.

 

Expensive business this boating lark.........................

 

The additives are not dependent on the resin used - they are universal.

 

The last epoxy I used was a "No Name" called EX88. A 1 to 1 mix. A gallon of each cost a little over $200. It was completely satisfactory and I much prefer the simplicity of the 1 to 1 ratio . I was using it to bond wood so I'm not sure about blush but if it was there it was very low based on the exposed bits I had.

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What sort of working time are you getting with your west system Roger? I've been trying to resheathe my rudder lately, and its too fucking hot. 15 minutes and its gone, using slow hardener. I've been looking about for ultra slow, but none stocked locally, might have to order some in

 

Working out of a pan instead of a pot helps as well - larger surface area to radiate the heat.

 

Cheap paint tray liners work O/K

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What sort of working time are you getting with your west system Roger? I've been trying to resheathe my rudder lately, and its too fucking hot. 15 minutes and its gone, using slow hardener. I've been looking about for ultra slow, but none stocked locally, might have to order some in

Working out of a pan instead of a pot helps as well - larger surface area to radiate the heat.

 

Cheap paint tray liners work O/K

I've been getting it out of the pot pretty quick, it lasts even less time in there.

Keeping the pot in cold water like Ajax suggested might be worth a crack, and I was thinking of refrigerating the epoxy before mixing. Temps are over 35c every day here, today is supposed to be more like 38 or 40.

It's a pity I can't work in an air conditioned shed, but there is no overlap between air conditioned areas and places my wife will let me fibreglass

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I wouldn't even try at those temps. Doing a good job is very problematic over 30 C. How about working in the early morning - just before sunup is the coolest time of day.

 

Chilling the resin before mixing will likely stiffen it up to the point it will be difficult to mix thoroughly

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I wouldn't even try at those temps. Doing a good job is very problematic over 30 C. How about working in the early morning - just before sunup is the coolest time of day.

 

Chilling the resin before mixing will likely stiffen it up to the point it will be difficult to mix thoroughly

Minimums are about 28c, so it never really gets cool. Major problem is that most of the equipment is at my dads place, so I usually only work on it during the day.

We have two new rudders to build for a 38' Cat in the next month or so, so my shitty old contender rudder is being used as a Guinea pig for how we will work

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So i'm not the only one then Doug?

 

What with the cost of West Systems here in the UK and the work it creates compared to other brands i've read about in the US i'm actively looking for a non-blushing system. The problem i have along with many here in the UK is choice: its pretty much SP or Wests and that's it, a supplier i use is distributing MAS Epoxy but based on volume its 50% dearer than Wests! :blink:

 

When i google non-blushing epoxy in the US you've got System Three, Raka & MAS and a few independents making their own brews, wish we had that kinda choice here in the UK? Have been looking at 207 hardener as its low to non-blush depending on the conditions so might give that a go seeing as i have a cupboard full of wests additives.

 

Expensive business this boating lark.........................

 

It is expensive, but then the skilled labor you're putting into it is the the most valuable part.

 

Not sure I understand what's happening with your lamination, I have never had a problem with blush forming underneath peel ply. You mentioned something about using a heat gun on the lay-up after wetting it out but before putting on the peel ply? I have always put it on immediately after wetting out the cloth, and rollering it into place along with the laminate.

 

 

 

Chilling the resin before mixing will likely stiffen it up to the point it will be difficult to mix thoroughly

 

I have never had good luck chilling resin or hardener; it becomes like molasses and impossible to wet out cloth properly. And it seems to cure almost as fast. Using a tray or a big shallow bowl instead of a pot or cup helps keep it from smoking, thogugh.

 

FB- Doug

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Whats this?

 

Yes thats right people .............yet more bulkhead action, get this: the ply i bought over the christmas hols is actually worthy of the name 'marine' maybe my constant whinging at my local supplier has paid off, doubtful? Heres todays effort, admittedly not very exciting:

 

First a template:

 

WP_20160125_15_21_40_Pro.jpg

 

Then some wood butchery:

 

WP_20160125_17_57_43_Pro.jpg

 

Then land it on some corecell and structural adhesive, wedge and clamp till its all set:

 

WP_20160125_19_03_11_Pro.jpg

 

Ready for tabbing tomorrow, all with my new non-blushing epoxy. Found a firm run by chemistry nerds based in Cornwall, real friendly bunch too who talked me through what they do: Epoxy Resin, and after a good long chat have got a delivery coming tomorrow.

 

Cheers

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Your progress looks great. What epoxy did you go with?

Cheers C2B: Went with reactiveresins.com system called Syntac EPAFD low-viscosity resin and Synamin 220 (25 min) hardener and all non - blushing, what i did today looks pretty boring but had such a great day where everything went right, nothing fought me.

 

Couldn't believe how good the plywood was to cut - sounds tedious i know, but the last couple of sheets have been a real lottery, from sheets pretty much destroying themselves when put through the saw (breakout and bits flying off in all directions) to sheets falling apart after being cut through from no glue, today i had no breakout, minimum of trimming to get the final shape all went in painlessly.

 

Glad i gutted it and started again............

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Looks damned good, Rog.

 

Question- I don't understand the uh...lip you put on the bulkhead where it attaches to the hull. What is its purpose, vs. simply cutting a solid panel and tabbing it to the hull?

This is obviously the difference between "good enough" and "right and proper", and I want to know what it is.

 

I've done some coring work on pieces where the underside isn't visible (and was raw from the factory anyway) so I was able to not worry about cosmetics.

I've never used peel-ply but you make extensive use of it. I'm thinking of buying some to try out, so that I can get proficient with it.

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AJax, I think its to prevent a hard spot in the Hull, as the plywood is solid, if it was butted to the Hull the fiberglass would work or bend and flex around it, creating a hard spot which could eventually weaken the laminate.

 

Fantastic work Roger (as per). How did you get the bulkhead dimensionally accurate whilst cutting off the correct amount to fit the foam between the bulkhead and the hull? This is something I've always struggled with and have usually ended up just butting the plywood to the hull itself.

 

Have you used Robbins timber? Expensive, but the sheet of marine ply I got from them was excellent, admittedly this was 7 years ago!

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Looks damned good, Rog.

 

Question- I don't understand the uh...lip you put on the bulkhead where it attaches to the hull. What is its purpose, vs. simply cutting a solid panel and tabbing it to the hull?

This is obviously the difference between "good enough" and "right and proper", and I want to know what it is.

 

I've done some coring work on pieces where the underside isn't visible (and was raw from the factory anyway) so I was able to not worry about cosmetics.

I've never used peel-ply but you make extensive use of it. I'm thinking of buying some to try out, so that I can get proficient with it.

 

Cheers Ajax, no worries, the lip is so i can tab that side in and the finished depth will be the same as the original sheet thickness so when i veneer it and it'll be flush, that one there is 100 x 2mm, a proper belt and braces approach would be (using plywood) to taper the edge say 75mm back down to a few mill either side thats contacting the hull and deck so each lamination of the plywood gets bonded then add peel ply if you need to.

 

bulkhead_tabbing.gif

Speaking of which the boffins of the new resin i got tell me i can go again on top of the first hit of cloth within 48 hrs without having to prep the surface in any way so i'm hoping the peel ply will be taking a back seat from now on, that said things like the rudder that got made with wests and still need a bit of fettling, i'll still use wests and keep to those techniques.

 

No question peel ply saves time where blushing occurs but i just seem to get problems with it, think alot of it is down to the weather and poor technique on my part.

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AJax, I think its to prevent a hard spot in the Hull, as the plywood is solid, if it was butted to the Hull the fiberglass would work or bend and flex around it, creating a hard spot which could eventually weaken the laminate.

 

Fantastic work Roger (as per). How did you get the bulkhead dimensionally accurate whilst cutting off the correct amount to fit the foam between the bulkhead and the hull? This is something I've always struggled with and have usually ended up just butting the plywood to the hull itself.

 

Have you used Robbins timber? Expensive, but the sheet of marine ply I got from them was excellent, admittedly this was 7 years ago!

 

Hi MG, yeah ive seen Robbins timber but my pockets just aren't deep enough, its great stuff but a bit out of my league, the piece above is Far-Eastern Marine Ply, all stamped up bout £50 a sheet. Regarding dimensioning bulkheads i use correx (signage material) its easy to cut and cheap, all i do is get it to the point where the bulkhead is touching in a few places on the hull then scribe with a block all the way around about 5mm, thats then the gap for the foam.

 

Although i have on a few occasions mounted bulkheads using blocks and filled in the gap with sikaflex so the bulkheads are essentially mounted with no chance of any hard spots, come to think of it i've filleted a few bulkheads with sika too, boatbuilder mate gave me that idea.

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Wow, so the bulkhead doesn't actually contact the hull, but it *is* tabbed to it? I never considered the issue of chafe.

 

Further question- I know you'll build the boat to be dry as possible, but there's always condensation. Will you be drilling a limber hole though those bulkheads to allow the bilges to drain to the lowest point?

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Not so much chafe, from what i understand its more about distributing loads better through the hull and avoiding hardspots although on a westerly like mine where the hull lay up is around 20mm thick between the keels you'd be going some to get any print through from internal structure.

 

Condensation, i think it'd make sense to put some kind of drain in, to be honest i'm still wrestling this one, i've worked a schedule out using armaflex to insulate the boat with; that was the reasoning behind dropping the floor and filling the bilge up with foam so i had three inches of foam under my feet and an inch of foam above my head, the sides of the hull too will get an inch of armaflex through the insides, the lockers i'll vent through the lids, the cushions will be mounted up off the bases with sprung battens then the theory is with airflow down the sides of the hull and under the bedding and through the lockers should make for a dry-ish boat.

 

The plan i have for the v-berth is to insulate down the inside of the hull some 2" so i can use it to store clothes and bedding without them going black and furry, my attitude is as long as i keep air moving and it has a clear path through ventilation as well as insulation should get a half way dry boat.

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AJax, I think its to prevent a hard spot in the Hull, as the plywood is solid, if it was butted to the Hull the fiberglass would work or bend and flex around it, creating a hard spot which could eventually weaken the laminate.

 

Fantastic work Roger (as per). How did you get the bulkhead dimensionally accurate whilst cutting off the correct amount to fit the foam between the bulkhead and the hull? This is something I've always struggled with and have usually ended up just butting the plywood to the hull itself.

 

Have you used Robbins timber? Expensive, but the sheet of marine ply I got from them was excellent, admittedly this was 7 years ago!

 

Hi MG, yeah ive seen Robbins timber but my pockets just aren't deep enough, its great stuff but a bit out of my league, the piece above is Far-Eastern Marine Ply, all stamped up bout £50 a sheet. Regarding dimensioning bulkheads i use correx (signage material) its easy to cut and cheap, all i do is get it to the point where the bulkhead is touching in a few places on the hull then scribe with a block all the way around about 5mm, thats then the gap for the foam.

 

Although i have on a few occasions mounted bulkheads using blocks and filled in the gap with sikaflex so the bulkheads are essentially mounted with no chance of any hard spots, come to think of it i've filleted a few bulkheads with sika too, boatbuilder mate gave me that idea.

 

 

 

That's one of those ideas that I wish I'd thought of, so simple I'm kicking myself!

 

I wouldn't worry to much about condensation, I've a couple of cabin top vents in mine and a vent in the washboards and now I've sorted the deckleaks out she's staying fairly dry.

 

I notice a few new boats with these:

http://www.air-onlyventilators.com/air-only-low-profile/

 

Not to bad a price either, about the same as traditional ones.

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Insulated or not, a 1cm limber hole at the bottom of each bulkhead all the way to the bilge is a good idea. Liquid happens.

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IStream: good point water will always find a way in whether leaks, condensation or otherwise.

 

MG: I'm liking those vents ALOT! I can see one going in each cabin.

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IStream: good point water will always find a way in whether leaks, condensation or otherwise.

 

MG: I'm liking those vents ALOT! I can see one going in each cabin.

 

I saw a youtube review of some multi-million pound yacht which had those fitted so I google them expecting Superyacht prices and was pleasantly surprised.

They even work inverted http://www.air-onlyventilators.com/if-the-yacht-rolls/So you can rest easy when you have that B2 knockdown. :D

 

Any more progress pics?

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Not much progress MG seeing as i was doing the church job this week making and installing a housing for a bloody great projector screen, this meant i only got to muck about with my new super dooper resin today. Got one side of the new ply bulkhead tabbed in though:

 

WP_20160130_18_15_27_Pro.jpg

 

Went a bit wrong on the left hand side as i laid the hull side piece of tabbing down first then folded out the bulkhead side and realised it overlapped the tape i had put on the bulkhead to save mess, it should have all looked like the right hand side, no matter - shall sand back tomorrow. The new resin is ace, absolutely rules, wont be using wests again. This stuff is nice and low viscous so unlike wests this time of year which is like golden syrup, the new stuff is way more workable.

 

Also the amount of heat the new resin can take is unreal, wests sets solid after about a minute waving a heat gun near it at point blank range whereas this stuff stays nice and liquid plus it works perfect with wests additives of which i still have a cabinet full of and no blush either, bought 37.5kgs of the stuff, their 'c' pack if you like.

 

No popeye arm either from pumping the resin, just a nice and simple 2:1 ratio poured into a cup via scales.

 

WP_20160130_10_59_12_Pro.jpg

 

......................and mucking about with wests fillers this morning, all of which are fine being made with a different resin:

 

WP_20160130_13_55_14_Pro.jpg

 

Church job that kept me from the boat this week:

 

WP_20160128_15_24_55_Rich.jpg

 

cheers

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Might have to give that resin a go, I got system 3 last time being disillusioned with West but I actually found it worse, especially in cold conditons it took a lot longer to set, and didn't feel as 'useable'.

 

Work was the bane of my project and when you work contract style, you only earn while your working so its kind of hard to turn down work, I ended up taking January off and all but finishing mine sans some varnishing, obviously its not to anything near the kind of standard you'd work to!

 

The middle one with the stack-pak. boat.jpg

 

For the bulkheads you're making out of foam cell, how do you finish them off? Encapsulate the foam in epoxy and cloth and then veneer it?

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Bringing a little church up in this muthafuka.......nice! :D:lol:

 

beautiful work!

 

Can i get a hell yeah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Might have to give that resin a go, I got system 3 last time being disillusioned with West but I actually found it worse, especially in cold conditons it took a lot longer to set, and didn't feel as 'useable'.

 

Work was the bane of my project and when you work contract style, you only earn while your working so its kind of hard to turn down work, I ended up taking January off and all but finishing mine sans some varnishing, obviously its not to anything near the kind of standard you'd work to!

 

The middle one with the stack-pak. boat.jpg

 

For the bulkheads you're making out of foam cell, how do you finish them off? Encapsulate the foam in epoxy and cloth and then veneer it?

 

Honestly MG its the feckin conkers this stuff, didn't have to heat it in the cupboard to use as its nice and runny to start with, blasted it with a heat gun on the bulkhead and pretty much saturated itself before my eyes like laying cloth down on a summers day, price-wise works out just a smidge cheaper than Wests but because of the mix ratio you get 25% more - win win B).

 

Work-wise yer bang on, stop start all the time, the bat phone went off Friday to finish the contract i'm on so will be back there after next week, got a few days paid work local this week but want to get the bulkheads all bonded and finished before if i can.

 

Yeah the foam bulkheads were finished either side with 600g bi-ax cloth, stuck in the vac bag and will probably end up getting painted, that ply one will get a veneer of White Oak hence the rebate /lip around the edge, I've found when encapsulating foam to whack a primer coat of slightly thickened epoxy over it first then lay the cloth over and roll it out with more epoxy on top, squeeging to finish if needs be.

 

Yer boat looks great btw, stackpack just got added to the rigging list. :D

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Bringing a little church up in this muthafuka.......nice! :D:lol:

 

beautiful work!

 

Can i get a hell yeah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

 

Amen and hell yeah!

 

RB that bulkhead looks great, that compound curve where the tabbing meets the stringer looks impossibly smooth. Next time I post photos of any of my work, I am going to photoshop the rough spots just so you don't make fun of me

 

FB- Doug

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Bringing a little church up in this muthafuka.......nice! :D:lol:

 

beautiful work!

 

Can i get a hell yeah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

 

Amen and hell yeah!

 

RB that bulkhead looks great, that compound curve where the tabbing meets the stringer looks impossibly smooth. Next time I post photos of any of my work, I am going to photoshop the rough spots just so you don't make fun of me

 

FB- Doug

 

 

Doug you're too kind mate, if you could've seen me in 2010, god........i got more stuck to me than i ever got on the boat, all that you see has been learnt entirely by trial and error :D interestingly a turning point in improving my laminating skills was to ditch most of the metal rollers i bought.

 

I did what anyone would do and googled the tools i'd need, went out and bought them only to find it them completely frustrating to use, it was whilst laminating the foam webs in the keel stubs that i picked up a 4" mohair roller by mistake and it being summer at the time thought i'd end wasting the resin jumping back out the boat to get the metal one so used that instead and have done so ever since. :)

 

Fwiw I still use the bubble buster and a squeegee at the end of most laminating sessions but to get what smooth a finish i have is all down to 4" (simulated) mohair rollers..............oh and a bit of heat now and again.

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Doug you're too kind mate, if you could've seen me in 2010, god........i got more stuck to me than i ever got on the boat, all that you see has been learnt entirely by trial and error :D interestingly a turning point in improving my laminating skills was to ditch most of the metal rollers i bought.

 

I did what anyone would do and googled the tools i'd need, went out and bought them only to find it them completely frustrating to use, it was whilst laminating the foam webs in the keel stubs that i picked up a 4" mohair roller by mistake and it being summer at the time thought i'd end wasting the resin jumping back out the boat to get the metal one so used that instead and have done so ever since. :)

 

Fwiw I still use the bubble buster and a squeegee at the end of most laminating sessions but to get what smooth a finish i have is all down to 4" (simulated) mohair rollers..............oh and a bit of heat now and again.

 

 

Those metal rollers jam and become chunky with one use, I've had a coupe sets and tried hard to keep them clean but not succeeded. For rollers I use a set of PVC pipe sections, from 1/2" up to 1 1/2", some cut to about 2" and some longer than 4~5" so I have a radius and can roll out as wide a swath as needed. They tend to get underfoot a bit but they are super easy to keep clean and they're cheap.

 

I tend to get about as much resin in my hair as on the fiberglass, fortunately my head is easy to sand smooth.

 

FB- Doug

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I've been using the metal rollers for 40 years - just hit them with a propane torch and burn all the crust off them, hit them with a wire brush to get any ash off and go to work for the day. If they start to stiffen or gel up during the day, do it again.

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I've been using the metal rollers for 40 years - just hit them with a propane torch and burn all the crust off them, hit them with a wire brush to get any ash off and go to work for the day. If they start to stiffen or gel up during the day, do it again.

Cheers for the tip Sloop, i've got a drawer full of gummed up ones, tried soaking in acetone - got nowhere, will give the propane torch a go.

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Finally got the bulkheads and stringers bonded together by cutting and overlapping cloth, think i'd make a good tailor after this project:

 

WP_20160201_21_10_20_Pro.jpg

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Finally got the bulkheads and stringers bonded together by cutting and overlapping cloth, think i'd make a good tailor after this project:

 

WP_20160201_21_10_20_Pro.jpg

 

This interior is going to be way harder to rip out. Well done.

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Finally got the bulkheads and stringers bonded together by cutting and overlapping cloth, think i'd make a good tailor after this project:

 

WP_20160201_21_10_20_Pro.jpg

 

Not really - one has to be able to remove clothing. ;)

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Roger,

 

fabulous work!

 

Have you given some thought to insulation at all (I'm sure you have). I'm planning to insulate my stock centaur in the next couple of weeks and just wondered if you had any thoughts or radical ideas?

 

Myself, I briefly considered an aero-gel matting but dismissed that on cost, despite being offered a discount too for a case study. I'm leaning towards a couple of layers of Polyethylene foam matting (like sleeping mat material) against the hull sides and under the deck/headlining.

 

Regards

Jon

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Finally got the bulkheads and stringers bonded together by cutting and overlapping cloth, think i'd make a good tailor after this project:

 

 

 

This interior is going to be way harder to rip out. Well done.

 

 

Exactly Ish!

 

Even with my stunningly comprehensive collection of cutting, sanding and grinding tools, this would now prove hard to pull, (coughs)................. although i dont intend trying :D.

 

Finally got the bulkheads and stringers bonded together by cutting and overlapping cloth, think i'd make a good tailor after this project:

 

 

 

Not really - one has to be able to remove clothing. ;)

 

Ah ha, good point Sloop, oh yeah i tried your idea on the metal rollers last night - worked a treat, thanx.

 

Morning Jon & cheers

 

What a coincidence, have just spent this very morning perusing several on-line outlets for insulation, i the same as you have racked my brains, funnily enough i got a lot of info from the VW T4 forum where insulation is a massive topic, worth a look imo, i think you have to join to search the forums - its free and involves nothing more than a user name and password.

 

I too am pretty set on a closed cell foam something like Armaflex or a derivative to insulate my boat, have looked into depron (ground mat material) and plain old styrofoam (blue foam) but they will both require adhesives, in styrofoams case kerfing (cutting grooves into it) too to take the boats shape and with depron i had problems with the fragility of the material using it in one of my many hot-vac experiments, although in deprons favour is price but i dont know if its fire retardant?

 

Since i want something i can pull from the box, cut and stick i'm looking at adhesive-backed Armaflex or similar (not because i'm some sort of rich ponce you understand - far from it :D ) but having seen this stuff up close on a couple of commercial jobs i've been involved with its durability is unsurpassed although from the look of things many suppliers of it have a minimum order value, this one below is the cheapest i've found - £250.

 

http://www.just-insulation.com/shop/shop-armaflex-elastomeric-nitrile-rubber-sheets-tubes.html

 

Also found this place which has no minimum order and the product looks similar to Armaflex but isn't fire retardant:

 

https://www.efoam.co.uk/zotefoam-plastazote.php

 

Hope that helps.

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Hi Roger -

 

Thanks for the comprehensive reply. I'm a T4 owner and have done that myself, so I'm familiar with the expertise found there.

 

This place, Intec Foams has said they'd sell me PE Foam that is most often used as a "Frost Blanket" for protecting newly laid concrete bases overnight in the winter. A 50m x 1m x 10mm roll was coming in at about £150 delivered but then you've got all the faff of sticking it with adhesive, probably spray or contact in my case.

 

I hadn't thought of the fire retardant requirement ... just concerned with retaining as much heat to keep Her quiet.

 

And if I read that just-insulation link right - they want you to spend £750, (£500 on stock order items in addition to the £250 Custom Order)

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That's some fine work. Although I cringed when you ripped the guts out, you sure are working fast (and to a high standard) to put it all back.

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Hi Roger -

 

Thanks for the comprehensive reply. I'm a T4 owner and have done that myself, so I'm familiar with the expertise found there.

 

This place, Intec Foams has said they'd sell me PE Foam that is most often used as a "Frost Blanket" for protecting newly laid concrete bases overnight in the winter. A 50m x 1m x 10mm roll was coming in at about £150 delivered but then you've got all the faff of sticking it with adhesive, probably spray or contact in my case.

 

I hadn't thought of the fire retardant requirement ... just concerned with retaining as much heat to keep Her quiet.

 

And if I read that just-insulation link right - they want you to spend £750, (£500 on stock order items in addition to the £250 Custom Order)

Yer right, just re-read that sentence on their site - fuck. Will investigate your link, i mean fire-retardant would be the best but as my insulation will be behind an epoxied ply skin i guess there would be a little fire proofing, its just that Armaflex is the kiddy though, may have to hunt around and see if theres a supplier on ebay.

 

That's some fine work. Although I cringed when you ripped the guts out, you sure are working fast (and to a high standard) to put it all back.

Cheers Ajax, yep making up ground as we speak, currently templating the new bunk frame that'll go over that new structure.

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Those partial bhds are looking very good Roger. Love the way you nipped them around the stringer.

I'm getting better at it, still learning as i go though as to where the cloth will fall and in what shape when i cut it, I'm back to my contract work next week for hopefully the last big push to the finishline, so between the myriad threads here (the cutter build being one) and Dylans excellent films are what keeps me motivated and the synapses firing.

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Lots of great work on those bulkheads! Very nice and very neat work!

 

 

I see there are other vintage VW owners on here as well. I own a 66 Beetle

 

keep up the great work!

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Lots of great work on those bulkheads! Very nice and very neat work!

 

 

I see there are other vintage VW owners on here as well. I own a 66 Beetle

 

keep up the great work!

 

Will do

 

Rog, how's October looking?

 

Once i get this contract finished i'll have a better idea of whats realistic. Still panicking slightly about the rig costs, the boat itself will be finished but the rig depends on how much get out of this paid contract.

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Rog, how's October looking?

 

I have now re-booked the BB for the launch for October 22

 

the lady in the BB is very forgiving

 

Land_lady_guru.jpg

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