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The elephant in the room is the canting rig of course...

 

C6hAqtLV0AAjJSe.jpg

^^ When I see that I still think that my hypothesis of an outward flex, and wider than the beam, thanks to the small uptip is valid,.... whatever says the rule.

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Maybe they were talking about Lee helm. :lol:

Ran across a golden oldie here, and yes it includes lee helm on the AC72.

 

http://www.sailfeed.com/2014/02/burns-and-speer-secrets-of-the-comeback/

The Lee helm also gets addressed shortly after this timestamp.

 

https://youtu.be/XQoNYe2jFP8?t=4459

Btw, that time stamp begins Indio's most favorite part of the movie 8)

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The Lee helm also gets addressed shortly after this timestamp.

 

Btw, that time stamp begins Indio's most favorite part of the movie 8)

 

It's no surprise that they're not showing on that slide the Component X indexing stepper motor they used illegally to cheat - again! Only this time, they got away with it from their MC and Race Director..

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Laugh/cry.. He describes in great detail the only thing they had, and had starting since long before the Cup Finals began. 'No Surprise' is right! :D

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Laugh/cry.. He describes in great detail the only thing they had, and had starting since long before the Cup Finals began. 'No Surprise' is right! :D

Did you honestly believe the OR guy was going to present anything but a cleaned up version of their cheating control system in a public forum?? I've got a bridge in SF you might be interested in buying LOL!!

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Laugh/cry.. He describes in great detail the only thing they had, and had starting since long before the Cup Finals began. 'No Surprise' is right! :D

Did you honestly believe the OR guy was going to present anything but a cleaned up version of their cheating control system in a public forum?? I've got a bridge in SF you might be interested in buying LOL!!
You have to admit that gizmo, that he even animates, works just fine. Spithill finally got the kind of rake control he needed, that had been missing from during that South Bay incident, the forensics of which he did a terrific job of also explaining earlier in the video.

 

Was just curious: Do you ever wake up from re-occurring nightmares about 'Component X'?

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Laugh/cry.. He describes in great detail the only thing they had, and had starting since long before the Cup Finals began. 'No Surprise' is right! :D

Did you honestly believe the OR guy was going to present anything but a cleaned up version of their cheating control system in a public forum?? I've got a bridge in SF you might be interested in buying LOL!!
You have to admit that gizmo, that he even animates, works just fine. Spithill finally got the kind of rake control he needed, that had been missing from during that South Bay incident, the forensics of which he did a terrific job of also explaining earlier in the video.

 

Was just curious: Do you ever wake up from re-occurring nightmares about 'Component X'?

 

Nope. But every publication I've seen has an asterisk against Oracle Racing** with a footnote explanation.

 

 

**: the only America's Cup team convicted of cheating.

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You are reading some out-there publications :D

 

Maybe the alien monsters described in them are what give you the nightmares. Either way, it's funny.

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Laugh/cry.. He describes in great detail the only thing they had, and had starting since long before the Cup Finals began. 'No Surprise' is right! :D

 

Ah so that explains the miraculous comeback doesn't it!

 

Backs up what I have been saying all along. No credible explanation for ultra-stable foiling after race 8.

 

Oh, yeah, then there is the Lee Helm on the most advanced sailing vessel on the planet at the time, that they for some reason decided to sail with for the first 8 races! :lol: YCMTSU.

 

Helm on my boat lasts a few minutes, that's how long it would take to tune it out.

 

I didn't realise that you had a wing on your boat and knew how to trim out lee helm with it.

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The elephant in the room is the canting rig of course...

 

C6hAqtLV0AAjJSe.jpg

^^ When I see that I still think that my hypothesis of an outward flex, and wider than the beam, thanks to the small uptip is valid,.... whatever says the rule.

 

I forgot, no camber and twist = fast upwind mode

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C6hAqtLV0AAjJSe.jpg

 

 

 

C6hAnz1V4AAiHbE.jpg

 

 

Looks outside max beam, but then the 1st photo is pretty distorted. the overhead one looks fine.

 

Doesn't matter anyway just now does it?

 

Those low speeds in max breeze must be a worry though - that's about 12kn slower than ETNZ's top speed, they can do the ton (km/h) ...... apparently ;)

Does look outside Bmax!

I'm sure that it won't measure that way.

What I do like is all that spray! Seems to be a lot! That should be slow! Great!

Doubt it's outside b-max. You can see white Oracle logo on port side of Port bow, so port viewpoint bias giving parallax.

 

Nice wind up tho.. Let the games begin!

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The elephant in the room is the canting rig of course...

 

C6hAqtLV0AAjJSe.jpg

 

The overhead shot would suggest the rig is not canted. Could be lens distortion from the pic above, maybe?

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C6hAqtLV0AAjJSe.jpg

 

 

 

C6hAnz1V4AAiHbE.jpg

 

 

Looks outside max beam, but then the 1st photo is pretty distorted. the overhead one looks fine.

 

Doesn't matter anyway just now does it?

 

Those low speeds in max breeze must be a worry though - that's about 12kn slower than ETNZ's top speed, they can do the ton (km/h) ...... apparently ;)

Does look outside Bmax!

I'm sure that it won't measure that way.

What I do like is all that spray! Seems to be a lot! That should be slow! Great!

Doubt it's outside b-max. You can see white Oracle logo on port side of Port bow, so port viewpoint bias giving parallax.

 

Nice wind up tho.. Let the games begin!

 

 

That overhead shot also gives a good view of the wing trim.

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I knew the information was out there. Watch the video from Jack Griffin of CupExprience who most respect.

 

 

Note that the first thing Jack says "both teams improved so much over the course of the america's cup match". He then provides evidence for this. Note how he points out that both boats were capable of about the same top speed. Although he states that Oracle foiled with more stability, he identifies that the key difference was the way the wing was sheeted. Watch the video and also the race videos. the big difference was Oracle getting up on foils upwind far quicker than ETNZ after a tack. Watching other videos shows that was achieved through the "pumping" of the wing after each tack.

 

I don't expect "random" or Oracle CEO to give any credibility to the video, but that's because they are trolls.

 

I did watch Jack's video, whom I respect. But I took something else away from it entirely.

I made a short video to present my analysis.

 

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I knew the information was out there. Watch the video from Jack Griffin of CupExprience who most respect.

 

 

Note that the first thing Jack says "both teams improved so much over the course of the america's cup match". He then provides evidence for this. Note how he points out that both boats were capable of about the same top speed. Although he states that Oracle foiled with more stability, he identifies that the key difference was the way the wing was sheeted. Watch the video and also the race videos. the big difference was Oracle getting up on foils upwind far quicker than ETNZ after a tack. Watching other videos shows that was achieved through the "pumping" of the wing after each tack.

 

I don't expect "random" or Oracle CEO to give any credibility to the video, but that's because they are trolls.

I did watch Jack's video, whom I respect. But I took something else away from it entirely.

I made a short video to present my analysis.

 

Clearly there was automated systems in place. The boat wouldn't have reacted to the previous input before the next was made. As good as JS is, it's not believable that he steered tge beast and adjusted the foils at the same time.

 

Most excellent work Barfy.

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I suppose the foil control could have been accomplished by Simeon Tienpont tap dancing on these foot controls.

(picture credit Jack CupExperience.com)

 

post-109400-0-78085000-1489355548_thumb.jpg

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I knew the information was out there. Watch the video from Jack Griffin of CupExprience who most respect.

 

 

Note that the first thing Jack says "both teams improved so much over the course of the america's cup match". He then provides evidence for this. Note how he points out that both boats were capable of about the same top speed. Although he states that Oracle foiled with more stability, he identifies that the key difference was the way the wing was sheeted. Watch the video and also the race videos. the big difference was Oracle getting up on foils upwind far quicker than ETNZ after a tack. Watching other videos shows that was achieved through the "pumping" of the wing after each tack.

 

I don't expect "random" or Oracle CEO to give any credibility to the video, but that's because they are trolls.

 

I did watch Jack's video, whom I respect. But I took something else away from it entirely.

I made a short video to present my analysis.

 

 

 

Nice video editing work, barfy.

 

You say, "But I took something else away from it entirely...." And yet you conclude, "I'm not sure."

 

So, can we take it that you are now definitely unsure - like the rest of us? :unsure:

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I did watch Jack's video, whom I respect. But I took something else away from it entirely.

I made a short video to present my analysis.

 

 

Nice one, very interesting. The foil adjustment could looks like the approved rake control system trying to maintain a constant target rake angle under variable ram load and hydraulic pressure.

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The last caption should be read as "I'm not sure I want to be sued."

 

I feel he's actually sure...

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So, Nav. Any further thoughts on that elephant house guest? I'm surprised everyone here is ignoring your suggestion about rig cant.

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Axis control valve goes sailing - 3rd Quarter 2016 - MOOG - Motion Control

 

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??

interesting as the system described uses a "feedback transducer" whereas we all know the feedback was mechanical in nature with the valve being operated between a reference linear actuator and the position of the board.

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Axis control valve goes sailing - 3rd Quarter 2016 - MOOG - Motion Control

 

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??

interesting as the system described uses a "feedback transducer" whereas we all know the feedback was mechanical in nature with the valve being operated between a reference linear actuator and the position of the board.

 

 

Off my pay scale to comment - just interested to note the context of previous use (cant keel position) and the note that a current AC team is using it as mentioned in the advertising - maybe another application ??

 

http://www.motioncontrol.co.za/55189n

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^ probably all good under the current Protocol

 

could well be - never read it - occasionally drop in here to see whats up and saw the conversation.

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Barfy

 

That is very compelling evidence. Just who, or what, is controlling that foil?

 

Let's see if we can find some more and build a case.

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Barfy

 

That is very compelling evidence. Just who, or what, is controlling that foil?

 

Let's see if we can find some more and build a case.

Build a case? What do you think you can do, overturn the results and give the Cup to NZ? You just cannot accept that the only way ETNZ could have been beaten is that the other team must have cheated. You need to grow up and accept that OTUSA were faster in the latter parts of the regatta and ETNZ did not improve (apart from pie warmers).

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Barfy

 

That is very compelling evidence. Just who, or what, is controlling that foil?

 

Let's see if we can find some more and build a case.

Build a case? What do you think you can do, overturn the results and give the Cup to NZ? You just cannot accept that the only way ETNZ could have been beaten is that the other team must have cheated. You need to grow up and accept that OTUSA were faster in the latter parts of the regatta and ETNZ did not improve (apart from pie warmers).

 

 

I did accept it, until I saw that footage!

 

Now I have questions

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Personally I have never accepted that the cheating on the AC45s was restricted just to those Oracle team members that got caught.

Nor have I accepted that they MUST have cheated to win the AC match from ETNZ.

 

The only thing I am certain of is that they (Oracle) behaved appallingly in having cheated in the AC45 and can't really blame anyone but themselves if people assume they likewise cheated in the AC72.

 

I'm not saying they didn't (or did), but whatever happened is well and truly done-burgers.

No proof was found then and the chances of proof ever being found (assuming cheating did occur) is now zero.

 

Therefore, I see no point in debating this now because if you are an ETNZ fan, you are only upsetting yourself and pi$$ing off the Oracle fans, who are guilty of nothing but (possible) rabid fanaticism which many ETNZ fans are likewise guilty of.

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The last caption should be read as "I'm not sure I want to be sued."

 

I feel he's actually sure...

You're a cunt.

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Barfy

 

That is very compelling evidence. Just who, or what, is controlling that foil?

 

Let's see if we can find some more and build a case.

Build a case? What do you think you can do, overturn the results and give the Cup to NZ? You just cannot accept that the only way ETNZ could have been beaten is that the other team must have cheated. You need to grow up and accept that OTUSA were faster in the latter parts of the regatta and ETNZ did not improve (apart from pie warmers).

The goal would be to expose the cheating. No return or re-race would happen. There is no statute of limitations here. There is simply another forum member raising a topic of discussion that may or may not be sensationalized and broadcast internationally causing Oracle shares to plummet and Larry to end up on welfare.

 

There's something there and if you're not a fan of fair play in sport and investigating questions, such as this, then you sir are a cheat or cheat enabler.

 

So. Say that smack talk again with passion.

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The last caption should be read as "I'm not sure I want to be sued."

 

I feel he's actually sure...

You're a cunt.

Your opinion leaves me devastated...

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I knew the information was out there. Watch the video from Jack Griffin of CupExprience who most respect.

 

 

Note that the first thing Jack says "both teams improved so much over the course of the america's cup match". He then provides evidence for this. Note how he points out that both boats were capable of about the same top speed. Although he states that Oracle foiled with more stability, he identifies that the key difference was the way the wing was sheeted. Watch the video and also the race videos. the big difference was Oracle getting up on foils upwind far quicker than ETNZ after a tack. Watching other videos shows that was achieved through the "pumping" of the wing after each tack.

 

I don't expect "random" or Oracle CEO to give any credibility to the video, but that's because they are trolls.

I did watch Jack's video, whom I respect. But I took something else away from it entirely.

I made a short video to present my analysis.

 

Clearly there was automated systems in place. The boat wouldn't have reacted to the previous input before the next was made. As good as JS is, it's not believable that he steered tge beast and adjusted the foils at the same time.

 

Most excellent work Barfy.

 

Great video editing and you cannot contradict what you see, which is the lifting strut moving, and I have no answer at all as to why it moves the way it does. In the context of measuring how much the foil moves, do you think it matters that the strut isn't attached to the case which is what moves to adjust the rake of the foil but instead, it attaches to a fixed part of the hull in order to transfer the loads? Does it also matter that the strut has a joint to the hull that allows for both fore and aft movement as well as side to side and that the strut can and does move separately from the case.

 

As you can clearly see the foil, why not do the same analysis on the foil which is sticking out below the boat. If you can show that moving the same way, you might well have your smoking gun. I haven't got the gear to do the analysis, but i have watched it a dozen times with a makeshift marker and I cannot see the same movement.

 

The other thing that concerns me about this is that this video suggests that there is a benefit to rapid adjustment of the angle of the foil. With the speed of the changes, it seems to me that it would be impossible for there to be enough time to see the effect of the changes in rake. That change is by no means instantaneous. Even on an ultra light foiler such as the Moth, that reacts quickly to wand changes, you don't see that sort of reaction time although I wish you did because it might stop some crashes!

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The hits just keep on coming :)

 

Yes that strut does look like it is a bit on the loose side and reacting to the powerful forces on the foil below ,

 

They might fix it this time around or perhaps they like it that way .

 

Carry on :)

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I knew the information was out there. Watch the video from Jack Griffin of CupExprience who most respect.

 

 

Note that the first thing Jack says "both teams improved so much over the course of the america's cup match". He then provides evidence for this. Note how he points out that both boats were capable of about the same top speed. Although he states that Oracle foiled with more stability, he identifies that the key difference was the way the wing was sheeted. Watch the video and also the race videos. the big difference was Oracle getting up on foils upwind far quicker than ETNZ after a tack. Watching other videos shows that was achieved through the "pumping" of the wing after each tack.

 

I don't expect "random" or Oracle CEO to give any credibility to the video, but that's because they are trolls.

I did watch Jack's video, whom I respect. But I took something else away from it entirely.

I made a short video to present my analysis.

 

Clearly there was automated systems in place. The boat wouldn't have reacted to the previous input before the next was made. As good as JS is, it's not believable that he steered tge beast and adjusted the foils at the same time.

 

Most excellent work Barfy.

Great video editing and you cannot contradict what you see, which is the lifting strut moving, and I have no answer at all as to why it moves the way it does. In the context of measuring how much the foil moves, do you think it matters that the strut isn't attached to the case which is what moves to adjust the rake of the foil but instead, it attaches to a fixed part of the hull in order to transfer the loads? Does it also matter that the strut has a joint to the hull that allows for both fore and aft movement as well as side to side and that the strut can and does move separately from the case.

 

As you can clearly see the foil, why not do the same analysis on the foil which is sticking out below the boat. If you can show that moving the same way, you might well have your smoking gun. I haven't got the gear to do the analysis, but i have watched it a dozen times with a makeshift marker and I cannot see the same movement.

 

The other thing that concerns me about this is that this video suggests that there is a benefit to rapid adjustment of the angle of the foil. With the speed of the changes, it seems to me that it would be impossible for there to be enough time to see the effect of the changes in rake. That change is by no means instantaneous. Even on an ultra light foiler such as the Moth, that reacts quickly to wand changes, you don't see that sort of reaction time although I wish you did because it might stop some crashes!

KAPOW! Shot that down in flames. Pity you dont know shit about the actual construction fanbot.

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Axis control valve goes sailing - 3rd Quarter 2016 - MOOG - Motion Control

 

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??

They didn't use Moog servo valves because they need feedback (illegal under the Class Rules) for continuous adjustments by the Moog: the valve shown in their cheating hydraulic circuit is a manually-controlled directional control valve which imo was already installed. Their cheating circuit with the Component X indexing stepper motor was, imo, a retro-fit because they did not have time to change out the manual valve for a Moog or other proportional control valve and tune it in with their control system.

I think they used the indexing stepper motor with a rotary encoder (illegal) to provide feedback, which is how they were able to achieve the auto-adjustment barfly refers to.

 

Interesting that the screen grab stinger posted showing the hydraulic simulation using a mechanical plunger activated valve (!!!) being controlled by a mechanical device which is what they depicted in their cheating circuit as "Component X - all components used in hydraulic circuits, under the Class Rule, had to be commercially available to all AC teams. This would make the customised plunger activator illegal, imo.

post-18089-0-51758800-1377643891_thumb.png

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Amazing editing work Barfy, it shows that either the valve was not connected to the hull as explained by OR but to a component taking into account other parameters, or that they could not control their foil properly.

However, even in the second scenario they have a feed back system which is not a fixed or manual setting.

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For all you conspiracy theorists, consider this. If there was any compelling video evidence (or any evidence at all) of a board control system outside a valid measurement certificate, wouldn't you have expected RG to have something to say about it? Does he really need you help? I think not.

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Amazing editing work Barfy, it shows that either the valve was not connected to the hull as explained by OR but to a component taking into account other parameters, or that they could not control their foil properly.

However, even in the second scenario they have a feed back system which is not a fixed or manual setting.

So you choose to ignore the fact that his reference point is only attached to the foil and case by a rope, that the attachment point to the hull has a movable joint and that it would not move in relation to the foil case moving. What is being measured is as relevant as the rope moving about in the breeze that we can see in the same video.

 

Go to the original video. Look at the foil sticking out under the boat. I have looked at this on a 27" screen, put a bit of tape on the screen to create a reference point for both the pole and the foil and they do not move together. When you know what you are looking for, there is enough magnification on a big screen. I can clearly see the pole moving as shown in the blown up video, even at full speed, but I cannot see the foil moving. There seems to be no link between them, which is what you would expect considering they are not fixed to each other.

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Amazing editing work Barfy, it shows that either the valve was not connected to the hull as explained by OR but to a component taking into account other parameters, or that they could not control their foil properly.

However, even in the second scenario they have a feed back system which is not a fixed or manual setting.

So you choose to ignore the fact that his reference point is only attached to the foil and case by a rope, that the attachment point to the hull has a movable joint and that it would not move in relation to the foil case moving. What is being measured is as relevant as the rope moving about in the breeze that we can see in the same video.

 

Go to the original video. Look at the foil sticking out under the boat. I have looked at this on a 27" screen, put a bit of tape on the screen to create a reference point for both the pole and the foil and they do not move together. When you know what you are looking for, there is enough magnification on a big screen. I can clearly see the pole moving as shown in the blown up video, even at full speed, but I cannot see the foil moving. There seems to be no link between them, which is what you would expect considering they are not fixed to each other.

 

But the pole is moving so well that it keeps OR more stable than TNZ. Amazing isn't it!

 

I hadn't realised. The pole is Component X and it has some sort of gyroscopic powers that keeps the boat dead level, all controlled by some mystery computer probably implanted up Jimmy's a#$s. Every time it gets scary and his arse checks clench, the computer automatically saves the day. :ph34r:

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Donald Trump says high!.....

 

America will be strong again....

 

 

At any price....

 

 

Grab i'm by the C#&ts..... i mean pussy!

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The hits just keep on coming :)

 

Yes that strut does look like it is a bit on the loose side and reacting to the powerful forces on the foil below ,

 

They might fix it this time around or perhaps they like it that way .

 

Carry on :)

are you sure the pole is not attached to the case?

 

If you look closely you can see the top of the foil moving at the base of the pole and just aft of it, at the exact same time as the pole. Or its the top of the case. Same same.

 

the reason why the movements may be more obvious above the hull is because they are two meters above the pivot point, as apposed to half a meter where the foil extends out of the hull.

 

The robotic nature of the movements seem to be more trim corrections than corrections to position due to random hits from waves or external forces. I animated for years and am quite experienced at catching frame to frame motion and interpreting it as natural or robotic. On the "loose side" is the motion of the slacked off stay flapping around beside the pole.

 

Just tellin ya what i see.

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^^so it only took 5 minutes to find another video, where the foil was not "reacting to the powerful forces on the foil below" but still responding to rake control inputs.

 

Nothing but the hits Max.

 

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^^so it only took 5 minutes to find another video, where the foil was not "reacting to the powerful forces on the foil below" but still responding to rake control inputs.

 

Nothing but the hits Max.

 

You should ask Jack Griffin if when he visited OB2 he saw the lifting poles attached to the foil case, I can't remember exactly bu I'm pretty sure the lifting poles were still on OB2 in the photos be posted on Cup Experience.

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^^so it only took 5 minutes to find another video, where the foil was not "reacting to the powerful forces on the foil below" but still responding to rake control inputs.

 

Nothing but the hits Max.

 

Pomph. MIKE DROP

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All along I had attributed the win to the lower mode that Ben had gotten into and thoght of the Oracle cheated again idea as a bit of a conspiracy theory. But these videos really do show that there must have been some sort of automated adjustment happening to the boards.

 

The thought I keep having is, imagine trying to manually pilot a quadcopter drone without the software that stabilizes them. Then try to race it against someone running with the stabilizing software on. You'd see all kinds of microtrims from the software stabilized version. That's really what the video shows in slowmo. Many many microtrims.

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^^so it only took 5 minutes to find another video, where the foil was not "reacting to the powerful forces on the foil below" but still responding to rake control inputs.

 

Nothing but the hits Max.

 

You are right that entire case assy appears to be loose .

 

Someone should be fired :)

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Newbie here; Gf tits on their way and all that.

 

Barfly - excellent. Excuse total ignorance : Was this adjusting flight to a target altitude or pitch ?

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^ Just helping Jimmy to keep this one the right way up

 

'Safety!' (IM)

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aren't all the permissible and commercially available control surface hydraulic valves ,drive clutches and electrical actuators now a matter of public record ?

 

Quick scan of the design rule says they were to be published 150 days out from the Challenger series - anyone got a link ?

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You should ask Jack Griffin if when he visited OB2 he saw the lifting poles attached to the foil case, I can't remember exactly bu I'm pretty sure the lifting poles were still on OB2 in the photos be posted on Cup Experience.

 

 

nope, first place i checked. poles and entire case gone gone gone.

 

post-109400-0-23624700-1489441579_thumb.jpg

 

http://www.cupexperience.com/blog/

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Barfy, look at ETNZ in "Jack's video" from race 2- From about 28s in. Looks to me that the rate of inputs are pretty similar, certainly not much slower, and look to be bigger from just the naked eye. Can you do the same analysis on that?

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good eye.

But the board that is moving is not loaded, it is fully retracted, flopping in the case as it gets hit by waves.

The loaded board just below the water drop is not moving at all. You can see it make one gross adjustment in rake just at shot end.

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Hoooollley fuk. I was wondering about that. Everyone on the boat would have known what was happening. There is no way that something could be moving a foil like that and not make a lot of sound.

post-11911-0-06444900-1489444956_thumb.jpg

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good eye.

But the board that is moving is not loaded, it is fully retracted, flopping in the case as it gets hit by waves.

The loaded board just below the water drop is not moving at all. You can see it make one gross adjustment in rake just at shot end.

You can't see enough to know whether the loaded board is moving. But if the unloaded board is moving, in a similar way to Oracle's loaded board is moving, then why?

 

1) Is it because it is still getting effects from the boats motion as the boat moves through waves? If not why could not be the same be true of Oracles loaded board

2) is it because the hydraulics drive the rake of both boards (because that is a simpler design and copes with the cases during tacks, gybes etc that you don't want the foils doing contrary things). If so does that suggest that if the motion is due to Oracle cheating, then ETNZ was doing so earlier?

3) Something else?

 

Frankly I'm not convinced either way. But from as a neutral who frankly didn't care about the issue, you now have piqued my interest

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Can you guys break down the Zapruder film when you are done?

 

WetHog :ph34r:

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Far more conspiracy theories about foil-gate than the Kennedy assassination Hoggie!

 

As I said previously, with the cheating scandal with the 45s Oracle has absolutely no right to complain if they are suspected of cheating in every other event here on in.

 

But, I fail to see the point of pissing and moaning ad infinitum over the matter. They won, we (NZ) lost and aint nothing going to change that.

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Jaysper, I'm not sure I agree with the analysis that if someone believes there has been cheating, it but it was in the past, they should forget it and just move on. Most cheating is exposed by small numbers of individuals chipping away at the established truth, the truth which is largely controlled by those with richest pockets and establishment connections. Lance was exposed by Paul Kimmage, an Irish Journalist, and for many years Kimmage was attacked and pillored in the US and world media for having a vendetta against Armstrong. Many of you will remember the press conferences where Kimmage was singled out and attacked.

 

I've said before and I'll say it on record, that I don't know if OR cheated in the final - they certainly had form though. I personally am not focussing on the past, and only looking forward to the future, so i have some sympathy for your wanting to, but I don't see any moral failing of people looking to investigate the truth and never give up. Often they will be wrong, but other times they'll be completely correct, expose the truth, and will act as a brake on future behaviours. There are many examples of past sporting hero's who have never been accused of doping, but does anyone, anyone really think that many of the revered and great cyclists/gymnasts/middle distance runners of the past, were not juiced up? Do we really believe every referee was straight in every major game?

 

I understand the frustration of genuine OR fans on this thread though, who might want to talk predominantly about sailing and progression of their boats. I guess the continued speculation and suspicion is the cost of the the actions the team took in the ACWS of AC34.

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good eye.

But the board that is moving is not loaded, it is fully retracted, flopping in the case as it gets hit by waves.

The loaded board just below the water drop is not moving at all. You can see it make one gross adjustment in rake just at shot end.

You can't see enough to know whether the loaded board is moving. But if the unloaded board is moving, in a similar way to Oracle's loaded board is moving, then why?

 

1) Is it because it is still getting effects from the boats motion as the boat moves through waves? If not why could not be the same be true of Oracles loaded board

2) is it because the hydraulics drive the rake of both boards (because that is a simpler design and copes with the cases during tacks, gybes etc that you don't want the foils doing contrary things). If so does that suggest that if the motion is due to Oracle cheating, then ETNZ was doing so earlier?

3) Something else?

 

Frankly I'm not convinced either way. But from as a neutral who frankly didn't care about the issue, you now have piqued my interest

 

I think i can see the loaded board well enough to see if it moves or not and it doesn't except at the end of shot. the lifting pole is attached to case the same as it was in 17 as evidenced by in moving in synch during the gross rake move at the end of the shot.

 

If you would like, i can apply the same 600x zoom to the shot tonight, the angle of the fixed cam is going to be very close to the angle on the OR boat due to the position of the mandated? camera.

 

1. The underwater loaded foil when skimming would not be affected by waves. The large horizontal component of the unloaded foil is. You can see the motion increase as the boat skims lower.

 

2. In Jack Griffin's walk thru of 17 http://www.cupexperience.com/blog/ he mentions he "did not show the controls to switch the oil between the hulls". I would think neither team would waste hydro on the weather hull. The second video i made shows the lee foil moving in the retracted position, that was during the "aw shit Jimmy" moment that the video I used illustrated when the "button" was pressed early, or not held down long enough. With or without hydro, and without the mechanical feedback system that OR was allowed to use the foil would probably react to being smashed by water.

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Jaysper, I'm not sure I agree with the analysis that if someone believes there has been cheating, it but it was in the past, they should forget it and just move on. Most cheating is exposed by small numbers of individuals chipping away at the established truth, the truth which is largely controlled by those with richest pockets and establishment connections. Lance was exposed by Paul Kimmage, an Irish Journalist, and for many years Kimmage was attacked and pillored in the US and world media for having a vendetta against Armstrong. Many of you will remember the press conferences where Kimmage was singled out and attacked.

 

I've said before and I'll say it on record, that I don't know if OR cheated in the final - they certainly had form though. I personally am not focussing on the past, and only looking forward to the future, so i have some sympathy for your wanting to, but I don't see any moral failing of people looking to investigate the truth and never give up. Often they will be wrong, but other times they'll be completely correct, expose the truth, and will act as a brake on future behaviours. There are many examples of past sporting hero's who have never been accused of doping, but does anyone, anyone really think that many of the revered and great cyclists/gymnasts/middle distance runners of the past, were not juiced up? Do we really believe every referee was straight in every major game?

 

I understand the frustration of genuine OR fans on this thread though, who might want to talk predominantly about sailing and progression of their boats. I guess the continued speculation and suspicion is the cost of the the actions the team took in the ACWS of AC34.

Thank you.

 

I saw something interesting when I was watching old videos as I now have enough bandwidth at home to do so in HD.

I'm not after a jihad, it's in the past. But FFS if I can't bring it up for comment in SA where the F*** can I?

Its not as if half of what is posted here is not irrelevant anyway.

So sorry to all the OR fans about the buzzkill. Maybe move over to the OR Facebook page and have a good chat there.

Should I start a new thread so you can get on with talking shit about your favourite team that was caught once cheating last cycle?

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^^so it only took 5 minutes to find another video, where the foil was not "reacting to the powerful forces on the foil below" but still responding to rake control inputs.

 

Nothing but the hits Max.

 

 

Interesting. A simple, non-nefarious explanation is the windward board was manually adjusted probably prior to a maneuver. USA17's rake control system was designed to move in steps, not smoothly.

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@Barfy

I never suggested that you can't (not like I can do anything if you do).

 

I hold Oracle with a significant amount of contempt for the cheating they did get caught for even if they genuinely didn't cheat in any other aspect.

All I'm saying is where is the point of going on about it?

Its like picking at a scab.

 

I'd rather focus on the current cup cycle, even if I have significant doubts over their ability to overcome the obstacles thus far and mount a successful challenge.

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Jaysper, I'm not sure I agree with the analysis that if someone believes there has been cheating, it but it was in the past, they should forget it and just move on. Most cheating is exposed by small numbers of individuals chipping away at the established truth, the truth which is largely controlled by those with richest pockets and establishment connections. Lance was exposed by Paul Kimmage, an Irish Journalist, and for many years Kimmage was attacked and pillored in the US and world media for having a vendetta against Armstrong. Many of you will remember the press conferences where Kimmage was singled out and attacked.

 

I've said before and I'll say it on record, that I don't know if OR cheated in the final - they certainly had form though. I personally am not focussing on the past, and only looking forward to the future, so i have some sympathy for your wanting to, but I don't see any moral failing of people looking to investigate the truth and never give up. Often they will be wrong, but other times they'll be completely correct, expose the truth, and will act as a brake on future behaviours. There are many examples of past sporting hero's who have never been accused of doping, but does anyone, anyone really think that many of the revered and great cyclists/gymnasts/middle distance runners of the past, were not juiced up? Do we really believe every referee was straight in every major game?

 

I understand the frustration of genuine OR fans on this thread though, who might want to talk predominantly about sailing and progression of their boats. I guess the continued speculation and suspicion is the cost of the the actions the team took in the ACWS of AC34.

Thank you.

 

I saw something interesting when I was watching old videos as I now have enough bandwidth at home to do so in HD.

I'm not after a jihad, it's in the past. But FFS if I can't bring it up for comment in SA where the F*** can I?

Its not as if half of what is posted here is not irrelevant anyway.

So sorry to all the OR fans about the buzzkill. Maybe move over to the OR Facebook page and have a good chat there.

Should I start a new thread so you can get on with talking shit about your favourite team that was caught once cheating last cycle?

 

If what you're suggesting is that the main lifting board is mirroring the motion of the lifting pole controlled by some kind of 'auto fly' mechanism, you would need to explain where the hydraulic power is coming from to continuously move that main board. The static load is in excess of 13,000 lbs, plus there will be considerable additional loads due to the lateral (leeway) loads. But 6 of the 8 grinders were driving the wing winch - which is where your conspiracy theory falls flat on it's face.

 

 

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^^so it only took 5 minutes to find another video, where the foil was not "reacting to the powerful forces on the foil below" but still responding to rake control inputs.

 

Nothing but the hits Max.

 

 

Interesting. A simple, non-nefarious explanation is the windward board was manually adjusted probably prior to a maneuver. USA17's rake control system was designed to move in steps, not smoothly.

 

You guys were aware of OR's incremental step system, right? Was there a reason ETNZ didn't change over? Were there some negatives to indexing the foil to a specific set of positions? I've always been curious about that.

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^^so it only took 5 minutes to find another video, where the foil was not "reacting to the powerful forces on the foil below" but still responding to rake control inputs.

 

Nothing but the hits Max.

 

 

Interesting. A simple, non-nefarious explanation is the windward board was manually adjusted probably prior to a maneuver. USA17's rake control system was designed to move in steps, not smoothly.

 

You guys were aware of OR's incremental step system, right? Was there a reason ETNZ didn't change over? Were there some negatives to indexing the foil to a specific set of positions? I've always been curious about that.

 

As you seem to have an inside knowledge of the OR system, how do you explain these micro seconds adjustments ? IIRC, you were the one explaining here that the valve was positioned on the foll and closed by the hull, if that was the case the foil rake control wouldn't have moved, while it seems that the foil was controlled to respect a set at a specific distance from the water.

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You guys were aware of OR's incremental step system, right? Was there a reason ETNZ didn't change over? Were there some negatives to indexing the foil to a specific set of positions? I've always been curious about that.

 

IIRC there was a request for interpretation on the proposed system so all the teams knew about the possibility. AFAIK while racing JS adjusted rake in consistent 0.1 degree increments because of their clever setup whereas JL pushed rake +/- buttons hundreds of times with far less consistent results due to varying foil load and hydro pressure.

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So if the auto-fly by computer was illegal in San Fran ... has the rules now changed to make it legal now?

 

No. "Auto-fly by computer" is still illegal.

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^^so it only took 5 minutes to find another video, where the foil was not "reacting to the powerful forces on the foil below" but still responding to rake control inputs.

 

Nothing but the hits Max.

 

 

Interesting. A simple, non-nefarious explanation is the windward board was manually adjusted probably prior to a maneuver. USA17's rake control system was designed to move in steps, not smoothly.

 

my point was that the pole is mounted to the case and moves in synch with it. It was the easiest way to prove this. ETNZ had the same setup. It allows one to see small trim movements on a long lever arm above the water. It is an anomaly that the board is doing trim movements whilst still retracted, your explanation is as good as any.

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Jaysper, I'm not sure I agree with the analysis that if someone believes there has been cheating, it but it was in the past, they should forget it and just move on. Most cheating is exposed by small numbers of individuals chipping away at the established truth, the truth which is largely controlled by those with richest pockets and establishment connections. Lance was exposed by Paul Kimmage, an Irish Journalist, and for many years Kimmage was attacked and pillored in the US and world media for having a vendetta against Armstrong. Many of you will remember the press conferences where Kimmage was singled out and attacked.

 

I've said before and I'll say it on record, that I don't know if OR cheated in the final - they certainly had form though. I personally am not focussing on the past, and only looking forward to the future, so i have some sympathy for your wanting to, but I don't see any moral failing of people looking to investigate the truth and never give up. Often they will be wrong, but other times they'll be completely correct, expose the truth, and will act as a brake on future behaviours. There are many examples of past sporting hero's who have never been accused of doping, but does anyone, anyone really think that many of the revered and great cyclists/gymnasts/middle distance runners of the past, were not juiced up? Do we really believe every referee was straight in every major game?

 

I understand the frustration of genuine OR fans on this thread though, who might want to talk predominantly about sailing and progression of their boats. I guess the continued speculation and suspicion is the cost of the the actions the team took in the ACWS of AC34.

Thank you.

 

I saw something interesting when I was watching old videos as I now have enough bandwidth at home to do so in HD.

I'm not after a jihad, it's in the past. But FFS if I can't bring it up for comment in SA where the F*** can I?

Its not as if half of what is posted here is not irrelevant anyway.

So sorry to all the OR fans about the buzzkill. Maybe move over to the OR Facebook page and have a good chat there.

Should I start a new thread so you can get on with talking shit about your favourite team that was caught once cheating last cycle?

 

If what you're suggesting is that the main lifting board is mirroring the motion of the lifting pole controlled by some kind of 'auto fly' mechanism, you would need to explain where the hydraulic power is coming from to continuously move that main board. The static load is in excess of 13,000 lbs, plus there will be considerable additional loads due to the lateral (leeway) loads. But 6 of the 8 grinders were driving the wing winch - which is where your conspiracy theory falls flat on it's face.

 

 

 

maybe that was beast mode

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Jaysper, I'm not sure I agree with the analysis that if someone believes there has been cheating, it but it was in the past, they should forget it and just move on. Most cheating is exposed by small numbers of individuals chipping away at the established truth, the truth which is largely controlled by those with richest pockets and establishment connections. Lance was exposed by Paul Kimmage, an Irish Journalist, and for many years Kimmage was attacked and pillored in the US and world media for having a vendetta against Armstrong. Many of you will remember the press conferences where Kimmage was singled out and attacked.

 

I've said before and I'll say it on record, that I don't know if OR cheated in the final - they certainly had form though. I personally am not focussing on the past, and only looking forward to the future, so i have some sympathy for your wanting to, but I don't see any moral failing of people looking to investigate the truth and never give up. Often they will be wrong, but other times they'll be completely correct, expose the truth, and will act as a brake on future behaviours. There are many examples of past sporting hero's who have never been accused of doping, but does anyone, anyone really think that many of the revered and great cyclists/gymnasts/middle distance runners of the past, were not juiced up? Do we really believe every referee was straight in every major game?

 

I understand the frustration of genuine OR fans on this thread though, who might want to talk predominantly about sailing and progression of their boats. I guess the continued speculation and suspicion is the cost of the the actions the team took in the ACWS of AC34.

 

Thank you.

 

I saw something interesting when I was watching old videos as I now have enough bandwidth at home to do so in HD.

I'm not after a jihad, it's in the past. But FFS if I can't bring it up for comment in SA where the F*** can I?

Its not as if half of what is posted here is not irrelevant anyway.

So sorry to all the OR fans about the buzzkill. Maybe move over to the OR Facebook page and have a good chat there.

Should I start a new thread so you can get on with talking shit about your favourite team that was caught once cheating last cycle?

If what you're suggesting is that the main lifting board is mirroring the motion of the lifting pole controlled by some kind of 'auto fly' mechanism, you would need to explain where the hydraulic power is coming from to continuously move that main board. The static load is in excess of 13,000 lbs, plus there will be considerable additional loads due to the lateral (leeway) loads. But 6 of the 8 grinders were driving the wing winch - which is where your conspiracy theory falls flat on it's face.

maybe that was beast mode

Beast mode was supposedly used to keep the wing drum spinning and allowing the trimmer to slip the sheet and grab as needed . At least that was one theory put forth here at one point .

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You guys were aware of OR's incremental step system, right? Was there a reason ETNZ didn't change over? Were there some negatives to indexing the foil to a specific set of positions? I've always been curious about that.

 

IIRC there was a request for interpretation on the proposed system so all the teams knew about the possibility. AFAIK while racing JS adjusted rake in consistent 0.1 degree increments because of their clever setup whereas JL pushed rake +/- buttons hundreds of times with far less consistent results due to varying foil load and hydro pressure.

 

that's the way i remember it as well. i think the interpretation came too late in the game for ETNZ to adopt. And hydro use, as suggested by surfsailor, may have been quite high.

Again, I saw the high frequency movement on a video, made a video to better illustrate what i saw, and questioned whether the helmsman was actually able to manipulate two buttons fast enough to explain the movement.

There have been some great considered responses and I think the discussion is constructive to better understand what we see.

I believe closed loop feedback of board position is legal this time around, ( and was last time through the interpretation), so again hydro will be important to stability, and even less grinders.

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Jaysper, I'm not sure I agree with the analysis that if someone believes there has been cheating, it but it was in the past, they should forget it and just move on. Most cheating is exposed by small numbers of individuals chipping away at the established truth, the truth which is largely controlled by those with richest pockets and establishment connections. Lance was exposed by Paul Kimmage, an Irish Journalist, and for many years Kimmage was attacked and pillored in the US and world media for having a vendetta against Armstrong. Many of you will remember the press conferences where Kimmage was singled out and attacked.

 

I've said before and I'll say it on record, that I don't know if OR cheated in the final - they certainly had form though. I personally am not focussing on the past, and only looking forward to the future, so i have some sympathy for your wanting to, but I don't see any moral failing of people looking to investigate the truth and never give up. Often they will be wrong, but other times they'll be completely correct, expose the truth, and will act as a brake on future behaviours. There are many examples of past sporting hero's who have never been accused of doping, but does anyone, anyone really think that many of the revered and great cyclists/gymnasts/middle distance runners of the past, were not juiced up? Do we really believe every referee was straight in every major game?

 

I understand the frustration of genuine OR fans on this thread though, who might want to talk predominantly about sailing and progression of their boats. I guess the continued speculation and suspicion is the cost of the the actions the team took in the ACWS of AC34.

Thank you.

 

I saw something interesting when I was watching old videos as I now have enough bandwidth at home to do so in HD.

I'm not after a jihad, it's in the past. But FFS if I can't bring it up for comment in SA where the F*** can I?

Its not as if half of what is posted here is not irrelevant anyway.

So sorry to all the OR fans about the buzzkill. Maybe move over to the OR Facebook page and have a good chat there.

Should I start a new thread so you can get on with talking shit about your favourite team that was caught once cheating last cycle?

If what you're suggesting is that the main lifting board is mirroring the motion of the lifting pole controlled by some kind of 'auto fly' mechanism, you would need to explain where the hydraulic power is coming from to continuously move that main board. The static load is in excess of 13,000 lbs, plus there will be considerable additional loads due to the lateral (leeway) loads. But 6 of the 8 grinders were driving the wing winch - which is where your conspiracy theory falls flat on it's face.
maybe that was beast mode

Beast mode was supposedly used to keep the wing drum spinning and allowing the trimmer to slip the sheet and grab as needed . At least that was one theory put forth here at one point .

 

As surfsailor says, high frequency board movements are going to eat hydro, and would provide the trim essential for low-riding upwind. OR was rock steady as commented by many observers and hulls just above skimming for min leeway min hull drag.

 

So now we have another connection to the high frequency movements even if we don't know how they were initiated, large amounts of hydro and a "beast mode".

 

ETNZ didn't have this ride height control and had to dip a hull occasionally as Jack's "Foiling upwind" video shows.

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I saw something interesting when I was watching old videos as I now have enough bandwidth at home to do so in HD.

I'm not after a jihad, it's in the past. But FFS if I can't bring it up for comment in SA where the F*** can I?

Its not as if half of what is posted here is not irrelevant anyway.

So sorry to all the OR fans about the buzzkill. Maybe move over to the OR Facebook page and have a good chat there.

Should I start a new thread so you can get on with talking shit about your favourite team that was caught once cheating last cycle?

I'm far from being an OR fan but yes I wish this discussion were in its own thread instead of drowning out what's happening in BDA now.

 

Yes it's a legitimate discussion for those who want it but not here, not so overwhelmingly.

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If there is an interest, and as the owner of this thread, I wills start a "Oracle Team USA 2013" thread

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If there is an interest, and as the owner of this thread, I wills start a "Oracle Team USA 2013" thread

I think there should be a new thread, with this one left to discuss AC35 with a focus on future, not past. The new thread can then contain as much tinfoil, grassy knolls, packages distributed in refrigerated cars, and missing B samples as can possibly be imagined. :)

Let OR/US sailing fans have this thread back.

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If there is an interest, and as the owner of this thread, I wills start a "Oracle Team USA 2013" thread

ya could have at least included my videos.

Maybe just delete all the discussion from here as well

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I think there might be a rational explanation for the movements of the windward foil of OR.

 

The bending moment from lateral resistance would be at a maximum at the point where the foil is exiting the hull when the foils are down. There are various ways to deal with the bending moment but given the circumstances of weight and the need to have the foils as thin as possible they have probably made them with a slight taper with the thickest part at the top of the foil.

 

This means that when the foils are on the windward side they would thinner and a loose fit in the slot and would be free to rattle about thus giving the movements that we see in the video.

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If there is an interest, and as the owner of this thread, I wills start a "Oracle Team USA 2013" thread

ya could have at least included my videos.

Maybe just delete all the discussion from here as well

 

tried to copy ur vid over but it didn't work for me. Can u?

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is there a thread discussing the various helmsmen? Could well be that the cup will be won by the person with the best temperament......I know, I know,, fastest boat blah, blah but.....and it is a but,...it could be that it'll come down to who has the best driver/teamwork.

 

Especially as getting a penalty in the prestart would be so decisive. Just seems like there's a whole area of discussion that isn't happening because everyone would rather focus on the engineering.

 

Jimmy, vs Ben, vs, Nathan, vs, Peter vs Dean (be nice!) vs Franck.....who's you money on?

 

Personally I think everyone will be trying to wind Ben up and only hope that come race time he is allowed to just driving the boat rather than all the other sh!t....I think Nathan comes over very well, calm, well supported in the team etc.....think Jimmy could get found out without perfect support....

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I think there might be a rational explanation for the movements of the windward foil of OR.

 

The bending moment from lateral resistance would be at a maximum at the point where the foil is exiting the hull when the foils are down. There are various ways to deal with the bending moment but given the circumstances of weight and the need to have the foils as thin as possible they have probably made them with a slight taper with the thickest part at the top of the foil.

 

This means that when the foils are on the windward side they would thinner and a loose fit in the slot and would be free to rattle about thus giving the movements that we see in the video.

 

Who cares about the windward foil ... the movement of the one in the water is the business. Cheating. Sad.

 

 

There is no evidence that the leeward foil is moving like the windward foil .. Just the lifting strut moving about .. probably because when the foil is fully down there is no load on the lifting strut.

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Grant Dalton and ETNZ would know better than anyone not affiliated with OR if OR used an illegal foil control system during AC34. And Grand Dalton and ETNZ would of shouted from the top of the Transamerica Pyramid if OR was using something illegal, especially during their epic 8 match choke job. Then he would of bitched and complained leading up to the start of the AC35 cycle. Might still be bitching now.

 

The silence of Grant Dalton on this current conspiracy theory proves that there is no conspiracy, IMO.

 

Its time to move on.

 

WetHog :ph34r:

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