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Uhuh. And still no "official" video of rock solid foiling to weather - or those incipient flying tacks.

 

I don't know if they will come out and play on Saturday - but my guess is more breeze today. Bright and sunny on the bay this morning.

 

Looks like the minimum wind speeds for flight are:

- 7 downwind

- 10 upwind

- 15 for a flying tack?

 

my WAG...

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I don't know if it's me but, looking at the video, the boat doesn't seem to fly with as much stability as B2 and TNZ, it's a bit like B1. I guess the reason is the advanced foil, ahead of the wing, which obliges the boat to rely on the rudder foil lift and makes it very sensitive to its settings and possible cavitation/ventilation. That would allow the AC45F to go as fast as AC72 but requires better active control of foils, in particular the rudder one. If true AC62 would be much faster that last AC boats but not as safe, which would be OK for Bermuda conditions.

 

But perhaps I am wrong ?

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Ventilation? Remember how Max Sirena was saying they had a problem with the rudder often getting into the board's wake (not only during gybes), problem ETNZ didn't have on B2

 

And being proactive: flying gybe > flybe, flying tack> flack?

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I don't know if it's me but, looking at the video, the boat doesn't seem to fly with as much stability as B2 and TNZ, it's a bit like B1. I guess the reason is the advanced foil, ahead of the wing, which obliges the boat to rely on the rudder foil lift and makes it very sensitive to its settings and possible cavitation/ventilation. That would allow the AC45F to go as fast as AC72 but requires better active control of foils, in particular the rudder one. If true AC62 would be much faster that last AC boats but not as safe, which would be OK for Bermuda conditions.

 

But perhaps I am wrong ?

It's ridiculously rock solid stable.

 

Any wobbles might be attributed to light air. Don't know what you are looking at.

 

Stable foiling upwind light air? No AC72 could do that. Navas and Surly both captured that on the "unofficial" video.

 

For some reason, the teams seem unwilling to blow their own horns - even though they are performing astounding tricks out there within plain sight of thousands on the beach...

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0:22 JS "This is the first time getting out there on a foiling AC45 for us" Sure thing mate.

 

@ TC : Airbus as major sponsor is all over their stuff now - end of the video, website etc

 

They are going to need the subbies like the hydraulic guys as well as their own shore crew floating around on race days ready to repair stuff - that is clearly beyond mere 'boatbuilders' now.

 

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My point was more that we are getting to/are at the point that the tech is beyond the 'team' now. It's going to be interesting how this plays out. Reliability/repairabilty/cost/extra specialists/more systems and components to test off the water each day/spares blah blah blah

I imagine they will already be into a tracked 'flight hours per component' aircraft style maintenance set-up.

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My point was more that we are getting to/are at the point that the tech is beyond the 'team' now. It's going to be interesting how this plays out. Reliability/repairabilty/cost/extra specialists/more systems and components to test off the water each day/spares blah blah blah

I imagine they will already be into a tracked 'flight hours per component' aircraft style maintenance set-up.

Don't mistake advertising hype for reality.

 

Sponsors want their monies worth.

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I guess the three boats have significant mechanical differences:

- AC45F: retrofit one design foiler with manual controls.

- AC62: purpose built big foiler with state of the art, but still manual, controls.

- mod45: anything goes foiler - no mechanical restrictions.

 

A few people have spoken up in the past about having a crew full of grinders and button pushers. Well, with the mod45 you only got button pushers - plus the guy steering the boat.

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^^ good that you also use the term AC45F.

I propose that in order to make it easier on the forum:

 

AC45= old archimedian one

AC45F = foiling AC45

AC45T= the turbo modified one

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My point was more that we are getting to/are at the point that the tech is beyond the 'team' now. It's going to be interesting how this plays out. Reliability/repairabilty/cost/extra specialists/more systems and components to test off the water each day/spares blah blah blah

I imagine they will already be into a tracked 'flight hours per component' aircraft style maintenance set-up.

Don't mistake advertising hype for reality.

 

Sponsors want their monies worth.

 

 

Hype? If you think so. But ask yourself why have they developed a relationship with these sponsors at all?

It used to be - Rope makers, sail makers, winch manufactures, etc. Now?

 

but.. The sailors say it is true. Tech we didn't like we didn't imagine last time. The guys from xyz are installing 'gizmos'. Etc We've seen the photos too, non-team members all over the boat. Interesting times - & even more potential court cases :D

 

Keep watching....

 

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Maybe I missed it, but saw on Facebook JS had surgery?

 

What's the scoop?

Tendinitis - from all that button pushing.

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^^ good that you also use the term AC45F.

I propose that in order to make it easier on the forum:

 

AC45= old archimedian one

AC45F = foiling AC45

AC45T= the turbo modified one

I understand it's being called AC45S by teams

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I guess the three boats have significant mechanical differences:

- AC45F: retrofit one design foiler with manual controls.

- AC62: purpose built big foiler with state of the art, but still manual, controls.

- mod45: anything goes foiler - no mechanical restrictions.

 

A few people have spoken up in the past about having a crew full of grinders and button pushers. Well, with the mod45 you only got button pushers - plus the guy steering the boat.

 

Floater: you are a wonder. Why would you imagine they would install anything major on their scale model 62's that was not a test system for the real thing?

Have you even read the Class Rule for the AC62 - what's this manual control nonsense?

Back to drooling in the harbour....

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Maybe I missed it, but saw on Facebook JS had surgery?

 

What's the scoop?

Tendinitis - from all that button pushing.

 

The AC cup trophy thing weighs a ton. Try hoisting that thing over your head a bunch of times.

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^^ good that you also use the term AC45F.

I propose that in order to make it easier on the forum:

 

AC45= old archimedian one

AC45F = foiling AC45

AC45T= the turbo modified one

I understand it's being called AC45S by teams

 

Let's go for it

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So long as we all stick to AC45 and AC45F then any of mod45, 45T, 45S (really?) will be understandable for the (non) Surrogates.

 

I think BAR started the first official one, using T for Test. AR is using Turbo, not sure about OR and LR.

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I guess the three boats have significant mechanical differences:

- AC45F: retrofit one design foiler with manual controls.

- AC62: purpose built big foiler with state of the art, but still manual, controls.

- mod45: anything goes foiler - no mechanical restrictions.

 

A few people have spoken up in the past about having a crew full of grinders and button pushers. Well, with the mod45 you only got button pushers - plus the guy steering the boat.

Floater: you are a wonder. Why would you imagine they would install anything major on their scale model 62's that was not a test system for the real thing?

Have you even read the Class Rule for the AC62 - what's this manual control nonsense?

Back to drooling in the harbour....

Guess they miniaturized the grinding pedestals too.

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I can see at least one - perhaps they aren't fully powered up.

 

At some point, maybe Jack will fill us in on whether the systems are different - or similar between the boats.

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So long as we all stick to AC45 and AC45F then any of mod45, 45T, 45S (really?) will be understandable for the (non) Surrogates.

 

I think BAR started the first official one, using T for Test. AR is using Turbo, not sure about OR and LR.

 

 

What about AC45M (for modified) for those boats OR raced with a little bit of extra weight in the nose....

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So long as we all stick to AC45 and AC45F then any of mod45, 45T, 45S (really?) will be understandable for the (non) Surrogates.

 

I think BAR started the first official one, using T for Test. AR is using Turbo, not sure about OR and LR.

 

What about AC45M (for modified) for those boats OR raced with a little bit of extra weight in the nose....

 

Please get it straight, those are AC45P, for penalty. The ones that cost OTUSA 2 points which they managed to overcome despite being down 8 to 1.

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So long as we all stick to AC45 and AC45F then any of mod45, 45T, 45S (really?) will be understandable for the (non) Surrogates.

I think BAR started the first official one, using T for Test. AR is using Turbo, not sure about OR and LR.

 

 

What about AC45M (for modified) for those boats OR raced with a little bit of extra weight in the nose....

Well, there's no prodder strut any more - so that competitive advantage's gone ..

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So long as we all stick to AC45 and AC45F then any of mod45, 45T, 45S (really?) will be understandable for the (non) Surrogates.

I think BAR started the first official one, using T for Test. AR is using Turbo, not sure about OR and LR.

 

What about AC45M (for modified) for those boats OR raced with a little bit of extra weight in the nose....

 

Well, there's no prodder strut any more - so that competitive advantage's gone ..

 

And a huge one it was..

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Is that a hospital issued hairnet, or his own?

Neither - that's an OTUSA official hairnet - part of the swag package for operations.

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Dang, watch out - Clean might find that getup attractive.

What..you and clean have the same man crush?....who knew....

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US court declines to confiscate Oracle

A US court has declined a request to confiscate a vessel owned by America's Cup champion, Oracle Team USA, as a lien for wages owed to a New Zealand sailor.

Joe Spooner, who worked as grinder, is suing Oracle Racing for $962,879 in unpaid wages and damages for alleged wrongful discharge

"Having reviewed the parties' arguments, the Court concludes that no basis for a maritime lien is apparent from Spooner's complaint, and therefore declines to issue a warrant to arrest the vessel," he said.

In Mr Spooner's complaint, obtained by Radio New Zealand, it said Mr Spooner was to be paid $US25,000 a month under his contract, until seven days after the June 2017 America's Cup final in Bermuda.

He was also to receive a bonus of no less than six months of average wages.

http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/266935/us-court-declines-to-confiscate-oracle

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That's good.

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US court declines to confiscate Oracle

 

 

A US court has declined a request to confiscate a vessel owned by America's Cup champion, Oracle Team USA, as a lien for wages owed to a New Zealand sailor.

Joe Spooner, who worked as grinder, is suing Oracle Racing for $962,879 in unpaid wages and damages for alleged wrongful discharge

"Having reviewed the parties' arguments, the Court concludes that no basis for a maritime lien is apparent from Spooner's complaint, and therefore declines to issue a warrant to arrest the vessel," he said.

In Mr Spooner's complaint, obtained by Radio New Zealand, it said Mr Spooner was to be paid $US25,000 a month under his contract, until seven days after the June 2017 America's Cup final in Bermuda.

 

He was also to receive a bonus of no less than six months of average wages.

 

http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/266935/us-court-declines-to-confiscate-oracle

Apparently cleans math is great, but his legal acumen is seemingly lacking in this case. What a surprise.

 

And where are the troll legal beagles of all beagles, TC and MSP- apparently hiding on this issue, another surprise.

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Guess John - and his all seeing eye - scared them away from the city front.

 

But really, it was pretty brisk out of the north yesterday, so they didn't need the slot.

 

Today looks light, so maybe they will need the westerly.

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--

Airbus technology partnership with the Oracle Team USA sailing squad has marked a key achievement, with the newly-designed testing boat taking to the water for the first time during recent activity. The collaboration of engineers and designers from both partners has been one of the key factors for this success, particularly Airbus work on the hydraulic systems.

http://www.airbus.com/newsevents/news-events-single/detail/airbus-and-oracle-team-usa-one-step-closer-to-the-2017-americas-cup-yacht-race/

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This morning I got the surprise to find an Oracle invitation for dinner with another 30 happy few in the city :blink:

 

No, it wasn't for the AC ! for their new CRM Metrix solution.

 

Larry is the new kid on the block, partly owned by Siebel. Let's see if he is able to as well as his former buddy Tom.

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4-handed

 

10960426_799649926738722_838111145164298

There's five there, three on the port side, and two on starboard. The second sailor is in the pit in front the helm (behind from the picture frame of ref) but you can see their helmet.

Edited by ozchrisb

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^ Hands on the wheels?

 

and sometimes 6 crew aboard.. one extra - dropping corn seed in that furrow :D

 

10996492_794629737240741_621686259593664

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^ Hands on the wheels?

 

and sometimes 6 crew aboard.. one extra - dropping corn seed in that furrow :D

 

10996492_794629737240741_621686259593664

what is the line that the guy on starboard and forward is holding? the port side same line looks like it's connected to the aft end of the front element.

 

also, the port mainsheet is going from wing to hull, but starboard is going directly down to the aft beam?

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I have nothing useful to add, other than I noticed that forward sheet in the videos too. Maybe they just have a control externalized so that they don't need hydros for it. Did we ever really find out what the could control last cup?

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Possibly the yellow line controls camber in some of the upper elements?? The Stb mainsheet is slack and just getting blown aft against the rear beam in the 40kt apparent wind.. :P

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^

About the yellow lines, ask Jack Griffin at cupexperience. I made the same mistake :)

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Possibly the yellow line controls camber in some of the upper elements?? The Stb mainsheet is slack and just getting blown aft against the rear beam in the 40kt apparent wind.. :P

Possibly the yellow line controls camber in some of the upper elements?? Nope.

The Stb mainsheet is slack and just getting blown aft against the rear beam Yep.

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Anyone know who's on the team these days? no more team members details site on the team web site any longer. maybe it's still free agency period??

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Anyone know who's on the team these days? no more team members details site on the team web site any longer. maybe it's still free agency period??

 

The only bit that I have seen on it so far:

 

“Oracle Team USA, out of a squad of 24 sailors from the last America’s Cup, have kept six so it’s a big change,” said Coutts

http://www.royalgazette.com/article/20150214/SPORT30/150219826

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^Thanks, hadn't seen that.

 

These guys + JS then....m336_crop169005_1280x720_14243992715EFB.

 

“They have got all the skills, the physique and athletic ability, they practise hard and have the discipline and so forth then you think this guy is going to be great, but then you put them in a race situation and then they are not so great.

In what way?

 

“It’s not today that really matters, it’s what matters in June of 2017 and so there’s a lot of young guys involved and there will be more trials over the next few years and that’s a good thing.”

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Possibly the yellow line controls camber in some of the upper elements??

 

Maybe it's just for popping the camber in the wing early in a gybe to get powered up on the new side

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Possibly the yellow line controls camber in some of the upper elements??

 

Maybe it's just for popping the camber in the wing early in a gybe to get powered up on the new side

 

That's it.

 

The yellow line is the "inverter" to pop the wing through.The wing is still self tacking in the sense that only one line controls the camber by limiting the camber. The camber control line runs aft along the center of the leading element, then between two sheaves. Ease the camber line to give, say 30° camber. No change needed when tacking / gybing - the flaps blow through to the same amount of camber on the other side.

 

But sometimes you want to help the wing to pop over, so you pull on the inverter line. Remember that ETNZ's wing was not self-tacking - they used hydraulics to pop the wing over. Race 8, near the top of Leg 3... "Hydro, hydro, hydro... "

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I've wondered about this but always assumed there was enough wind force on the smaller sails to pop them. The old 45 wings don't have this, right? Did they ever get stuck the wrong way?

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The old 45's were not doing foiling gybes. I think this maybe what they are using it for. It seems that getting the wing to pop over sooner than it naturally would helps new flow attachment/power to keep the boat from falling off the foils on the new gybe. That's my best guess anyway.

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I've wondered about this but always assumed there was enough wind force on the smaller sails to pop them. The old 45 wings don't have this, right? Did they ever get stuck the wrong way?

 

I seem to recall that during the ACWS a crew member would sometimes give the wing a nudge while crossing from one side to the other, particularly in light air, to 'pop' the wing

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^ Looking for a smoother transition from side to side. There is probably too much friction in the control lines going up inside the wing for it to slide over easily on it's own every time.

So rather that redesign and rebuild the existing wing controls they just added a line for now? Though the 'y' as the lines meet the wing seems a bit over the top for this simple function perhaps.

Guessing there is an updated wing on the way for this boat though, to test the ideas to be incorporated into the AC62 wing

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US court declines to confiscate Oracle

A US court has declined a request to confiscate a vessel owned by America's Cup champion, Oracle Team USA, as a lien for wages owed to a New Zealand sailor.

Joe Spooner, who worked as grinder, is suing Oracle Racing for $962,879 in unpaid wages and damages for alleged wrongful discharge

"Having reviewed the parties' arguments, the Court concludes that no basis for a maritime lien is apparent from Spooner's complaint, and therefore declines to issue a warrant to arrest the vessel," he said.

In Mr Spooner's complaint, obtained by Radio New Zealand, it said Mr Spooner was to be paid $US25,000 a month under his contract, until seven days after the June 2017 America's Cup final in Bermuda.

He was also to receive a bonus of no less than six months of average wages.

http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/266935/us-court-declines-to-confiscate-oracle

 

 

Is there a new development?

https://www.lawsuitdata.com/lawsuit-data/natures-of-suit/contract-lawsuits/marine/california-northern-district-court/0000830087/spooner-v-multi-hull-foiling-ac45-vessel-quot-4-oracle-team-usa-quot--et-al/officially-filed-court-documents/

 

24-0 Warrant Issued

2015-03-06

 

 

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Am reluctant to use PayPal from where I am today but wish someone would click to purchase the thing, then post it?

 

It must surely be a warrant for the boat that got issued.

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Yesterday, March 6, 2015, Spooner's attorneys filed an Amended Complaint, along with an emergency request to seize the AC45 on fears that Oracle may be moving it Bermuda, thus taking it outside the jurisdiction of the court. In response to the emergency request, the federal magistrate signed the warrant to arrest the vessel and related equipment (sails, etc.).

 

Pretty much all for naught. Oracle's attorneys filed a letter confirming that the subject vessel is no longer owned by Oracle, is no longer in the Northern District of California, and has since been shipped to its new owner, Team France.

 

Interestingly, Spooner's attorney filed an affidavit in support of her emergency motion for the warrant. In it, she confirmed that she paid a some "contractor/steel artist" whose offices are across from Pier 80 to spy on Oracle. In her affidavit, she references the intelligence the Steel Artist provided, which included seeing Oracle pull the subject AC45 out of the water and not put it back in. Mr. Steel Artist also saw containers show up. He apparently missed the boat being taken from Pier 80.

 

I got this from the documents filed in the court's electronic filing system, which I have access to. If I knew how to post them here, I would.

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Thank you.

 

Re this part: "Pretty much all for naught. Oracle's attorneys filed a letter confirming that the subject vessel is no longer owned by Oracle, is no longer in the Northern District of California, and has since been shipped to its new owner, Team France."

 

GauchoGreg posted somewhere in the TF thread that he'd seen the hull number, and that it was 5.

 

I suppose they could be Frankenboats by now, but you'd think hull registrations might matter.

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is this stuff good, it just gets better all the time.

could be a great TV mini-series on netflix

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is this stuff good, it just gets better all the time.

could be a great TV mini-series on netflix

Yep, will be an especially amusing time for the OR team if they arrive on schedule in Bermuda, but without any boat to sail.

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Thank you.

 

Re this part: "Pretty much all for naught. Oracle's attorneys filed a letter confirming that the subject vessel is no longer owned by Oracle, is no longer in the Northern District of California, and has since been shipped to its new owner, Team France."

 

GauchoGreg posted somewhere in the TF thread that he'd seen the hull number, and that it was 5.

 

I suppose they could be Frankenboats by now, but you'd think hull registrations might matter.

 

I was thinking the same thing. Sounds like someone is leading the court astray.

 

 

 

.....

He should have used a hull number to really pin a specific boat down .. :lol:

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Yes, it's possible that someone is leading someone else astray, perhaps the Oracle lawyer didn't even get it straight.

 

The photo GG was referring to was on the Groupama site. It was just a few shots into a set of about a dozen that you could click through. It looked like 0005 to me too (was onthe SB hull) but I didn't zoom to be sure. The sail had 4.

 

Being a pics guy perhaps you could track it down.

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Federal court clerk orders America's Cup champion's boat seized to satisfy fired sailor's lien
bug_sm.png

By BERNIE WILSON AP Sports Writer
March 07, 2015 - 2:56 pm EST

AAA
share.jpg

SAN DIEGO — A federal court clerk has issued a warrant authorizing marshals to seize America's Cup champion Oracle Team USA's prototype boat to satisfy a seaman's lien filed by sailor Joe Spooner, whose contract was terminated in January.

The order was issued late Friday by the U.S. District Court in San Francisco by clerk Richard W. Wieking.

The boat hadn't been seized as of late morning Saturday, Oracle Team USA spokesman Peter Rusch said.

Spooner sued last month, saying his contract for $25,000 a month was terminated without cause. He was a grinder with Oracle Team USA during its America's Cup victories in 2010 and 2013.

Chief Magistrate Joseph C. Spero denied Spooner's initial complaint on Feb. 23, but said he could file an amended complaint, which he did Wednesday.

Oracle Team USA is owned by software billionaire Larry Ellison.

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Yesterday, March 6, 2015, Spooner's attorneys filed an Amended Complaint, along with an emergency request to seize the AC45 on fears that Oracle may be moving it Bermuda, thus taking it outside the jurisdiction of the court. In response to the emergency request, the federal magistrate signed the warrant to arrest the vessel and related equipment (sails, etc.).

 

The court dismissed the original complaint on account of the employment contract's language specifically allowing termination, with two weeks' notice, by either party (right?), and for any reason, and so: how does the Amended Complaint resolve it?

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complaint.

If that boat does get arrested, it could stay that way for a very long time. Yikes, unless there's a T2 already well along.

 

I posted before that other terminated parties could be 'in the same boat' and this complaint raises my concern about that possibility.

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San Diego didn't get AC-35

 

BUT

 

Federal court clerk orders America's Cup champion's boat seized to satisfy fired sailor's lien

bug_sm.png

By BERNIE WILSON AP Sports Writer
March 07, 2015 - 2:56 pm EST

SAN DIEGO — A federal court clerk has issued a warrant authorizing marshals to seize America's Cup champion Oracle Team USA's prototype boat to satisfy a seaman's lien filed by sailor Joe Spooner, whose contract was terminated in January.

The order was issued late Friday by the U.S. District Court in San Francisco by clerk Richard W. Wieking.

The boat hadn't been seized as of late morning Saturday, Oracle Team USA spokesman Peter Rusch said.

Spooner sued last month, saying his contract for $25,000 a month was terminated without cause. He was a grinder with Oracle Team USA during its America's Cup victories in 2010 and 2013.

Chief Magistrate Joseph C. Spero denied Spooner's initial complaint on Feb. 23, but said he could file an amended complaint, which he did Wednesday.

Oracle Team USA is owned by software billionaire Larry Ellison.

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Click to embiggin.

 

"It said '4' on the sail Yer'onor! A simple mistake - we make 'em all the time ya know"

21385fb6d4b23f02647cbcf5a4ed15ec.jpg

 

Oracle's attorneys filed a letter confirming that the subject vessel (AC45 4) is no longer owned by Oracle, is no longer in the Northern District of California, and has since been shipped to its new owner, Team France.

 

perjury.png Porthos? Contempt at least...

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Thnx, nav.

 

The 4lb leadgate fiasco was one thing, but: It's going to piss me off if this is evidence of the team being run so badly that they lie to a real court. Hopefully there's a good explanation for the 4 vs 5 discrepancy; Porthos says that Oracle lawyers are claiming 4 went to the French and that photo suggests otherwise, well at least for the starboard hull I suppose.

 

If the situation is rooted in lax employment contract handling, well that points to a lack of legal discipline too.

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^ Nope. Stop right there... :lol: Port hull too AFAICSee Click

 

ebd07d600e0ba219dbca6039bfc66264.jpg

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"Pier 80, yup here it is... registered to Larry somebody. Ready boys?"

deputy-united-states-marshals.jpg

Go right ahead Clean ;)

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m334_crop169014_1024x576_proportional_14:)

 

and here of course...

 

 


m333_crop169014_1024x576_proportional_14

 

Catch us if you can pigs!

 

 

Maybe this?

 

AC45NZ3D2_0314.jpg

 

GG11-SFOJUNE_1755.jpg

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