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Barnyb

Oracle Team USA

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JS appeared to be more driven by his ego than what was best for his team in AC 35.

Refusing to give up any weight for the rest of the crew and refusing to give up the helm

RC threw JS under the bus a couple of times - first obviously by attempting to put TS on the helm

The 2nd time was in an interview halfway through the match when the writing on the wall was fairly clear and RC said Jimmy made all the decisions for the team. :lol:

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15 minutes ago, nav said:

The 2nd time was in an interview halfway through the match when the writing on the wall was fairly clear and RC said Jimmy made all the decisions for the team. :lol:

Spihtill took the step up to management in the last 2 or 3 years. But it's been an abject failure basically if you look at it from the ultimate test: results. He failed to contribute to creating the best boat or team, appears to have arrogantly dismissed different ways to do things and then got lead shoes when the team needed to step up and deliver.

I almost wonder if that is why he was mouthing off so readily - he was under pressure to deliver, knew he was falling well short of Coutts's previous level to balance sailing and management and his manner of reacting was to engage in the thing that makes no difference at all - mouthing off.

For all his bluster and self-professed legend at hustling I don't actually see his legend in his helming results, certainly not like the other top helmsmen in this AC - not in AC33 (OR had a massively better boat so as to make it a non-event), not in AC34 (was being spanked until the boat was improved and Ainslie came on board and told him to STFU and "steer the boat" as you are told), and then an 8-1 spanking in AC35 including legit winning maybe 2 starts out of 9. He's had 10 years of mostly enjoying the success of having the biggest funder in the game backing what he did. Save for his match racing success what else is there compared to what Outteridge, Ainslie, Burling have achieved in that time?

He's had plenty of good moments but for sure but how badly OR was outdone here cannot just be passed off as being wholly due an inferior boat. Spithill was a possum stuck in the headlights imo and having taken on board lots of extra responsibility within the team was probably beyond his capabilities.

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^ Seems fair, except maybe for asking what else he has achieved - after making a full time commitment to the AC (as helm & skipper & go-to PR person & Larry whisperer & manager (AC36... apparently) )

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40 minutes ago, weta27 said:

Guess who's coming down to give us some advice?

PUPEMAILHEADER15JULY2017.jpg

Probably booked in before he got the rubber glove.

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2 hours ago, weta27 said:

Guess who's coming down to give us some advice?

PUPEMAILHEADER15JULY2017.jpg

With the title of the presentation, there's only sailing entity fit to speak on it - Grant Dalton.

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3 hours ago, weta27 said:

Guess who's coming down to give us some advice?

PUPEMAILHEADER15JULY2017.jpg

I bet the Chamber of Commerce wishes they hadn't booked him so long ago and had booked someone else like GD or PB instead.

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^ Good to see Oracle still doing what they're good at,

making slick self-promotional videos.

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17 hours ago, weta27 said:

Guess who's coming down to give us some advice?

PUPEMAILHEADER15JULY2017.jpg

Need to change that header to, "Performing Under Pressure...or Not"

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From the linked link

--

Jimmy is the world's most successful racing skipper, and at 37 has already reached legendary status. In 2013 he led Oracle Team USA to victory against New Zealand against massive odds, recovering from 1-8 to win 9-8 (the Wall Street Journal called it 'one of the greatest comebacks in sports history'), and is the skipper for Oracle's upcoming 2017 America's Cup defence as well. This is his autobiography, and it opens with a young Jimmy in hospital about to have surgery on his leg, being told by the doctors he'll never be much good at sport. This sparks a life-long determination to prove them wrong. He won his first race aged 10, and using a credit card to pay for travel he went on winning races all over the country, and then the world. He debuted in the America's Cup as a skipper at age 20, and after a tough legal battle to free himself from his contract with the Young Australia team, he sailed in the next two Cups before becoming the youngest ever winner of the America's Cup in 2010, as helmsman and skipper of BMW Oracle Team 90, only to win it again three years later in 2013. This book is far from the usual media-trained official account you often get, especially in the closed-off world of the America's Cup. Jimmy's open, honest style gives us a rare insight into what goes on in the head of an extremely focused man at the top of his game. It's a rags-to-riches story of fierce determination, court cases, seasickness, crashed boats and cars, alcohol and winning against all the odds. And it all contributed to turning a quiet, bullied, water-loving blue-collar redhead born in Sydney into one of sailing's biggest rockstars. A compelling read, with many lessons in leadership, teamwork and achieving your dreams, no matter how impossible they seem.

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1 hour ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Too bad about the slagging headline but:

That is my next book purchase! I bet it's a great story.

 

Meh. I won't bother.

On the other hand, if Dalts brings out an AC book then maybe I'll borrow it from the library.

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2 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Meh. I won't bother.

On the other hand, if Dalts brings out an AC book then maybe I'll borrow it from the library.

The JS book could be pretty gritty.

I wish AC Encyclopedia TE would publish a book but I suspect it would be more 'on the classy side' - for history's sake.  Interesting nevertheless but a completely different life experience than JS's.

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1 hour ago, Sailbydate said:

Meh. I won't bother.

On the other hand, if Dalts brings out an AC book then maybe I'll borrow it from the library.

Dalts did mention (tongue-in-cheek, I would suggest) in one of the interviews where he was responding to the Coutts social media rant on the foils, to wait til his book comes out :lol:.

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10 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

 

 

You really are trashing OR for that? 

The Endeavor and RBYAC efforts were big, let's just wait and see what-all GD does to top them.

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On 7/15/2017 at 2:17 PM, ~Stingray~ said:

You really are trashing OR for that? 

The Endeavor and RBYAC efforts were big, let's just wait and see what-all GD does to top them.

What a nice thing that oracle did for these kids.......Did ETNZ do anything for these kids, I hope they did

 

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On 7/15/2017 at 9:46 AM, ~Stingray~ said:

From the linked link

--

Jimmy is the world's most successful racing skipper, and at 37 has already reached legendary status. In 2013 he led Oracle Team USA to victory against New Zealand against massive odds, recovering from 1-8 to win 9-8 (the Wall Street Journal called it 'one of the greatest comebacks in sports history'), and is the skipper for Oracle's upcoming 2017 America's Cup defence as well. This is his autobiography, and it opens with a young Jimmy in hospital about to have surgery on his leg, being told by the doctors he'll never be much good at sport. This sparks a life-long determination to prove them wrong. He won his first race aged 10, and using a credit card to pay for travel he went on winning races all over the country, and then the world. He debuted in the America's Cup as a skipper at age 20, and after a tough legal battle to free himself from his contract with the Young Australia team, he sailed in the next two Cups before becoming the youngest ever winner of the America's Cup in 2010, as helmsman and skipper of BMW Oracle Team 90, only to win it again three years later in 2013. This book is far from the usual media-trained official account you often get, especially in the closed-off world of the America's Cup. Jimmy's open, honest style gives us a rare insight into what goes on in the head of an extremely focused man at the top of his game. It's a rags-to-riches story of fierce determination, court cases, seasickness, crashed boats and cars, alcohol and winning against all the odds. And it all contributed to turning a quiet, bullied, water-loving blue-collar redhead born in Sydney into one of sailing's biggest rockstars. A compelling read, with many lessons in leadership, teamwork and achieving your dreams, no matter how impossible they seem.

Ii also help to have a Billionaire give you a speed advantage, which what he had in 2010 and 2013 but once he faced a faster boat he crumbled like a pack of cards. This guy is no Dennis Conner in size or sailing ability or wit or organization skills.  Actually he did have some wit I like the line 

One day you are a rooster, and the next day you are a feather duster

Actually he and Coutts and Butterworth should create a Canadian AC team  team called..................... Canadian United Nautical Team

I'm sure he would make a great skipper

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I do not aktewally reekawl enny trash torking from Jimmy, by ozzy standardz

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Rooster and next a feather duster quote I think was a Peter Montgomery original, well, that's when I heard it first, maybe 20-25 years ago ... so it's very much passe to Kiwis now.

 

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On 15/07/2017 at 9:26 AM, Trafficker said:

A bit presumptuous of Jimmy to call himself unstoppable, before the match...

Jimmy Spithill had to change the name of his biography

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11890990

The last chapter is going to make great reading!

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11 hours ago, Groucho Marx said:

Rooster and next a feather duster quote I think was a Peter Montgomery original, well, that's when I heard it first, maybe 20-25 years ago ... so it's very much passe to Kiwis now.

 

 

Origin of Rooster - Feather Duster expression.PNG

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Any news or hints at what Oracle will do next time around? If they haven't announced they'll be back now what's the chances..?

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I can't see anyone make big calls until we see what the Kiwis and Italians come up with rules wise.  Not only with regards to boat type but also CIC and crew nationality.

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On 14/07/2017 at 11:49 AM, weta27 said:

Guess who's coming down to give us some advice?

PUPEMAILHEADER15JULY2017.jpg

 

On 14/07/2017 at 2:27 PM, Indio said:

With the title of the presentation, there's only sailing entity fit to speak on it - Grant Dalton.

You might not like Spithill or Oracle, but 8-1 down seems to me to be more pressure as any sailing team has ever been under and they came through it. Irrespective of how well ETNZ did this time around and the expectation after last time, they were never under the pressure that was seen in the latter part of AC34. The top teams had just as much pressure as each other this time around

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18 minutes ago, A Class Sailor said:

 

You might not like Spithill or Oracle, but 8-1 down seems to me to be more pressure as any sailing team has ever been under and they came through it. Irrespective of how well ETNZ did this time around and the expectation after last time, they were never under the pressure that was seen in the latter part of AC34. The top teams had just as much pressure as each other this time around

Mate, I have a lot of time for Spithill - it's the collective OR-Xerox organisation management I despise. The only pressure OR-Xerox were under 8-1 down in AC34 was the risk of discovery of the illegal mechanical feed-back device they installed at the 11th hour. They were under more pressure in AC35 from the moment they saw the cyclors, compounded by their losses to Artemis in their training sessions when ETNZ were still in Auckland. Had Artemis managed to get by ETNZ in the LV-ACQ Final, I have no doubt that they would have thrashed OR-Xerox as well.

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A little last minute side deal?

WTF?

Marc Allen Fine Clothiers Named Exclusive America’s Cup Retailer in RI, Portion of Proceeds to Support Sail Newport

Written by Ryan Belmore, August 3, 2017

 

http://whatsupnewp.com/marc-allen-fine-clothiers-named-exclusive-americas-cup-retailer-in-ri-portion-of-proceeds-to-support-sail-newport/

 

expect a call!

 

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9 hours ago, E63sccb said:

ETNZ, did more than buying a couple of optis for a community that Orifice screwed out of millions and left a wasteland behind. NZL restored the sense of sportsmanship, seamanship and honor  to the sport, reinstated the possibility to dream that anything is possible even when confronted with the biggest cheaters, pricks and assholes of the world.

so what your trying to say is that ETNZ did shit all but win the cup

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14 hours ago, MR PLOW 270 said:

so what your trying to say is that ETNZ did shit all but win the cup

Sometimes instilling a mindset can do a lot more than throwing around a few bucks can ever do.

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On 8/4/2017 at 0:14 PM, Indio said:

Mate, I have a lot of time for Spithill - it's the collective OR-Xerox organisation management I despise. The only pressure OR-Xerox were under 8-1 down in AC34 was the risk of discovery of the illegal mechanical feed-back device they installed at the 11th hour. They were under more pressure in AC35 from the moment they saw the cyclors, compounded by their losses to Artemis in their training sessions when ETNZ were still in Auckland. Had Artemis managed to get by ETNZ in the LV-ACQ Final, I have no doubt that they would have thrashed OR-Xerox as well.

surely you do not believe in herbie still

if it had existed, they would have been disqualified under the protest

8 hours ago, sclarke said:

Sometimes instilling a mindset can do a lot more than throwing around a few bucks can ever do.

fair cop

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5 hours ago, MR PLOW 270 said:

if it had existed, they would have been disqualified under the protest

Not debating the existence or otherwise, but I don't believe this part is true.  IIRC the measurement committee interpretation was protested but the protest was deemed to be too late.  Once the interpretation was set in stone, OR-17 was technically class compliant so any protest would have almost certainly failed. 

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2 hours ago, ezyb said:

Not debating the existence or otherwise, but I don't believe this part is true.  IIRC the measurement committee interpretation was protested but the protest was deemed to be too late.  Once the interpretation was set in stone, OR-17 was technically class compliant so any protest would have almost certainly failed. 

The International Jury recognised the non-compliance of the feedback device in their decision when declining the ETNZ protest, but could do nothing about it as they are/were an arbitration entity not a proactive rules-enforcement and policing entity.

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9 hours ago, MR PLOW 270 said:

surely you do not believe in herbie still

if it had existed, they would have been disqualified under the protest

fair cop

I think its interesting that when full herbie finally got busted there was the whole argument that it still took input control (Jimmy's buttons) then systems judged how much it would move with the videos we saw and timing that the board mored 4 times in one second so it must be somewhat controlled by computers even with user input. 

Then we find out that is essentially how ETNZ controlled their foil in this cup, as Draper said in the finals on NBC in the US that they believed they used some sort of algorithm to control the board once there is user input, even after Tuke just put the board where the computer told him.

Both systems deemed legal, when Oracle uses it it's unfair, destroying the sport, and cheating, and when ETNZ does it's revolutionary, thinking outside the box, and why they are so much smarter? Doesn't add up, shows so many are just here to spew rhetoric.  

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1 hour ago, Indio said:

The International Jury recognised the non-compliance of the feedback device in their decision when declining the ETNZ protest, but could do nothing about it as they are/were an arbitration entity not a proactive rules-enforcement and policing entity.

Read 15.12  again.

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2 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Read 15.12  again.

This one you dumb fuck!?!?

"15.12. The Jury shall act as an arbitration body. The legal seat of the Jury is the State of New York. However, the Jury may carry out actions that fall within its jurisdiction at the Venue, or other places it deems appropriate, or by correspondence or other means of communication at a distance. The Jury proceedings shall be governed by the U.S. Federal
Arbitration Act and by the New York Convention of 1958 on the Recognition and Enforcement of Arbitral Awards. The Jury shall act fairly and impartially, provide equal treatment and a fair opportunity to be heard given the circumstances in which the decision must be made."

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8 hours ago, Nauti Buoy said:

I think its interesting that when full herbie finally got busted there was the whole argument that it still took input control (Jimmy's buttons) then systems judged how much it would move with the videos we saw and timing that the board mored 4 times in one second so it must be somewhat controlled by computers even with user input. 

Then we find out that is essentially how ETNZ controlled their foil in this cup, as Draper said in the finals on NBC in the US that they believed they used some sort of algorithm to control the board once there is user input, even after Tuke just put the board where the computer told him.

Both systems deemed legal, when Oracle uses it it's unfair, destroying the sport, and cheating, and when ETNZ does it's revolutionary, thinking outside the box, and why they are so much smarter? Doesn't add up, shows so many are just here to spew rhetoric.  

OR-Xerox's feedback device in AC34 was not "deemed" legal. And if you can't tell the difference between the OR-Xerox cheating device and ETNZ's compliant system, no amount of explanation will help you.

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6 hours ago, Indio said:

This one you dumb fuck!?!?

"15.12. The Jury shall act as an arbitration body. The legal seat of the Jury is the State of New York. However, the Jury may carry out actions that fall within its jurisdiction at the Venue, or other places it deems appropriate, or by correspondence or other means of communication at a distance. The Jury proceedings shall be governed by the U.S. Federal
Arbitration Act and by the New York Convention of 1958 on the Recognition and Enforcement of Arbitral Awards. The Jury shall act fairly and impartially, provide equal treatment and a fair opportunity to be heard given the circumstances in which the decision must be made."

And now the IJ statement.

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3 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

And now the IJ statement.

You're too dumb to be allowed out on your own!!

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9 hours ago, Nauti Buoy said:

I think its interesting that when full herbie finally got busted there was the whole argument that it still took input control (Jimmy's buttons) then systems judged how much it would move with the videos we saw and timing that the board mored 4 times in one second so it must be somewhat controlled by computers even with user input. 

Then we find out that is essentially how ETNZ controlled their foil in this cup, as Draper said in the finals on NBC in the US that they believed they used some sort of algorithm to control the board once there is user input, even after Tuke just put the board where the computer told him.

Both systems deemed legal, when Oracle uses it it's unfair, destroying the sport, and cheating, and when ETNZ does it's revolutionary, thinking outside the box, and why they are so much smarter? Doesn't add up, shows so many are just here to spew rhetoric.  

It's a coplete apples and oranges comparison. OR's 'system' in AC 34 simply meant that the boards moved in precise half degree increments - 1 button push = 0.5 degrees, 2 button pushes = 1.0 degrees etc. They did this by moving the valves onto the foil casings - there was a closed (within the system) mechanical feedback loop - no computers were involved or connected. It was a clever system that was ruled legal. ETNZ subsequently protested, but their protest was deemed too late - the OR system was installed 3 weeks before the beginning of the racing.

What ETNZ had running in AC35 (from my understanding) was full computerized flight control, except they inserted a human in the command chain via a transparent touch screen over a display, making it legal - the computer moved a dot on the screen, and a human followed the dot with his finger, which in turn controlled the flight.

OR (or ETNZ, but especially OR who was late to the game, destroyed their first boat, and could barely jibe at the beginning of the regatta) simply did not have the data in AC34 to create anything like that - never mind the fact that their foil adjustments were far too crude, and the amount of hydraulic power needed to do something like that on the AC72s was far beyond the capabilities of the hydraulic systems in those boats.

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19 minutes ago, Indio said:

You're too dumb to be allowed out on your own!!

So you assess points while the protocol is telling the contrary and without being able to provide the proof of your point ?

Now, can you entertain us with your "CoR challenger that will change status when the prot is signed" Perhaps you can prove your point in the Deed as well. :lol:

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6 minutes ago, surfsailor said:

 

It was a clever system that was ruled legal

Fake news - the mechanical feed-back device was never ruled on by the Measurement Committee, otherwise it would have been ruled out as illegal. There was nothing "smart" about their system: ETNZ, LR and Artemis could have installed similar systems as the obvious solution to their foil-controls, but they all realised that no feed-back system was permitted under the Class Rule.

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8 hours ago, Indio said:

Fake news - the mechanical feed-back device was never ruled on by the Measurement Committee, otherwise it would have been ruled out as illegal. There was nothing "smart" about their system: ETNZ, LR and Artemis could have installed similar systems as the obvious solution to their foil-controls, but they all realised that no feed-back system was permitted under the Class Rule.

You're half right. It was ruled legal - the system (like every other component and mod that went on the boats) was presented to the measurement committee, and approved. Just like ETNZ's stacked touch pad set up in AC 35. So you're dead wrong about that.

But you're right about it not being a 'smart' system (which would imply computer control) - there was no computer driven flight control on OR in AC34. That was fake news.

There was, however, computer-driven flight control on ETNZ in AC 35. You know, the thing the NZ yachting press was falsely accusing OR of in AC34, which subsequently regurgitated ad nauseum on this forum.

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^ Maybe you should compare the sections in the AC72 rule and the ACC rule with regard to manual control, feedback etc before carrying on as if the situation was the same in AC 34 as it was in AC 35 :(

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^ That was the measurement committee's job. They ruled on it - correctly in my view as an engineer, incorrectly in Indio's view as a bitter loser looking for excuses in 2013 - weeks before the regatta. The debate comes down to whether the 'feedback' was external to the mechanism - it was the functional equivalent of having a stopper ball on a sheet, so that it only moved a specific amount when released. Is that still 'manual control'? I say it is.

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12 hours ago, surfsailor said:

You're half right. It was ruled legal - the system (like every other component and mod that went on the boats) was presented to the measurement committee, and approved. Just like ETNZ's stacked touch pad set up in AC 35. So you're dead wrong about that.

But you're right about it not being a 'smart' system (which would imply computer control) - there was no computer driven flight control on OR in AC34. That was fake news.

There was, however, computer-driven flight control on ETNZ in AC 35. You know, the thing the NZ yachting press was falsely accusing OR of in AC34, which subsequently regurgitated ad nauseum on this forum.

Mate, PI49 simply asked for a ruling on the HYDRAULIC CIRCUIT which the MC approved as compliant. They were never asked to rule on the illegal mechanical feed-back system which - coincdentally!! - they specifically banned from AC35!!

PI_49.pdf

ETNZ's system was ruled compliant by the Measurement Committee in AC35 - OR-Xerox's illegal mechanical feed-back system was never ruled on by the MC. ETNZ, LR and Artemis all knew that the Class Rule prohibited any feed-back system so they made do with the foil-control systems they had. OR-Xerox was under the gun staring at 8-1 down and rolled the dice and cheated.

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15 hours ago, surfsailor said:

^ That was the measurement committee's job. They ruled on it - correctly in my view as an engineer, incorrectly in Indio's view as a bitter loser looking for excuses in 2013 - weeks before the regatta. The debate comes down to whether the 'feedback' was external to the mechanism - it was the functional equivalent of having a stopper ball on a sheet, so that it only moved a specific amount when released. Is that still 'manual control'? I say it is.

More like 10 stopper balls of differing sizes that stop at differing amounts and selected based on the current load and angle of apparent wind and operate in both directions... But yeah we get your point.  :ph34r:

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6 hours ago, Indio said:

Mate, PI49 simply asked for a ruling on the HYDRAULIC CIRCUIT which the MC approved as compliant. They were never asked to rule on the illegal mechanical feed-back system which - coincdentally!! - they specifically banned from AC35!!

PI_49.pdf

ETNZ's system was ruled compliant by the Measurement Committee in AC35 - OR-Xerox's illegal mechanical feed-back system was never ruled on by the MC. ETNZ, LR and Artemis all knew that the Class Rule prohibited any feed-back system so they made do with the foil-control systems they had. OR-Xerox was under the gun staring at 8-1 down and rolled the dice and cheated.

there is no shame in loosing

only shame in loosing poorly

oracle have not whined about ETNZ and accused them wrongly of cheating

maybe they have learned from another teams fanbase's mistakes...

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6 hours ago, ColinG said:

FFS you won, get over it

Think about who you are asking to get over it.  No chance.  :lol:

WetHog  :ph34r:

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2 hours ago, MR PLOW 270 said:

there is no shame in loosing

only shame in loosing poorly

oracle have not whined about ETNZ and accused them wrongly of cheating

maybe they have learned from another teams fanbase's mistakes...

Then again, ETNZ have never been caught cheating. Oracle was caught both spying and cheating. When you've cheated once, that label stays with you forever. As it will with Lance Armstrong. Thats just the way it is. They cheated and then had a "miracle" comeback. Gotta admit, when you say that, it does sound slightly questionable.

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5 hours ago, Boybland said:

More like 10 stopper balls of differing sizes that stop at differing amounts and selected based on the current load and angle of apparent wind and operate in both directions... But yeah we get your point.  :ph34r:

This is complete bullshit. The internal  (so not limited by the rule) mechanical (so no electronic data like windspeed involved) feedback loop simply meant that each button press resulted in the movement of the dagger boards by a specific increment, regardless of the hydrodynamic loads at the time - so one push would always = 0.5 degrees.

This gets really old. If you don't understand the system, look it up. If you're just a bitter, whining loser, maybe it's time to let go.

 

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7 minutes ago, sclarke said:

Then again, ETNZ have never been caught cheating. Oracle was caught both spying and cheating. When you've cheated once, that label stays with you forever. As it will with Lance Armstrong. Thats just the way it is. They cheated and then had a "miracle" comeback. Gotta admit, when you say that, it does sound slightly questionable.

9 hours ago, Indio said:

Mate, PI49 simply asked for a ruling on the HYDRAULIC CIRCUIT which the MC approved as compliant. They were never asked to rule on the illegal mechanical feed-back system which - coincdentally!! - they specifically banned from AC35!!

PI_49.pdf

ETNZ's system was ruled compliant by the Measurement Committee in AC35 - OR-Xerox's illegal mechanical feed-back system was never ruled on by the MC. ETNZ, LR and Artemis all knew that the Class Rule prohibited any feed-back system so they made do with the foil-control systems they had. OR-Xerox was under the gun staring at 8-1 down and rolled the dice and cheated.

That diagram - which the measurement committee deemed legal - clearly shows the valve located on the moving part (daggerboard casing) and the actuator on a non-moving 'reference' part (the hull). The mechanical 'feedback loop' is patently obvious to anyone who can read a simple diagram, and - as I noted - because it is within the system as a whole (no outside input) it certainly meets the requirements of the 2013 rule.

I have yet to see where this simple work-around to index board position was 'banned' from AC 35, a regatta which was won by a boat that moved it's foils in 3 dimensions by following computer instructions (that were based on all kinds of ride height, orientation and aero data) by having one of the crew track a dot on a screen with his finger, which would surely require exponentially more positional accuracy than OR had in AC34 to work. You have a link to that ruling?

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1 hour ago, sclarke said:

Then again, ETNZ have never been caught cheating. Oracle was caught both spying and cheating. When you've cheated once, that label stays with you forever. As it will with Lance Armstrong. Thats just the way it is. They cheated and then had a "miracle" comeback. Gotta admit, when you say that, it does sound slightly questionable.

But the one person who would question that come back, if it was questionable, is Grant Dalton.  Especially after all the chirping he did during AC34.  Yet he has never questioned the circumstances behind OR's come back.  Not once.  Why is that?

WetHog  :ph34r: 

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45 minutes ago, WetHog said:

But the one person who would question that come back, if it was questionable, is Grant Dalton.  Especially after all the chirping he did during AC34.  Yet he has never questioned the circumstances behind OR's come back.  Not once.  Why is that?

WetHog  :ph34r: 

Because he was gagged for a long time. He may still come out and say something now that he has the power to. 

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12 minutes ago, sclarke said:

Because he was gagged for a long time. He may still come out and say something now that he has the power to. 

He wasn't gagged after AC34 was over and before he became an official challenger for AC35.  

Shit, GD and his side kick Sad Max Sirena were calling OR cheats prior to the Cup match.  What was keeping them from doing the same while that 8-1 lead got chipped away?  Nothing.

WetHog  :ph34r:

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9 minutes ago, WetHog said:

He wasn't gagged after AC34 was over and before he became an official challenger for AC35.  

Shit, GD and his side kick Sad Max Sirena were calling OR cheats prior to the Cup match.  What was keeping them from doing the same while that 8-1 lead got chipped away?  Nothing.

WetHog  :ph34r:

Thats because they were cheats prior to the Cup match. They had been caught and had been penalised. That makes them cheats doesn't it? They already said it. Dalton has always said the MC was out of their depth and still reeling from the Oracle cheating scandal that they could not risk another potentially event ending scandal, so the ETNZ protest was dismissed as being too late. The protest was over. It would have been a waste of time harping on about it. ETNZ played the hand they were dealt at the time.  

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23 minutes ago, sclarke said:

Thats because they were cheats prior to the Cup match. They had been caught and had been penalised. That makes them cheats doesn't it? They already said it. Dalton has always said the MC was out of their depth and still reeling from the Oracle cheating scandal that they could not risk another potentially event ending scandal, so the ETNZ protest was dismissed as being too late. The protest was over. It would have been a waste of time harping on about it. ETNZ played the hand they were dealt at the time.  

I can only speak for myself, but I wouldn't consider it a waste of time if the team I led just choked away an 8-1 lead to a team using an illegal device.  And you won't admit it but you know GD wouldn't have thought it a waste of time either.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

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2 hours ago, WetHog said:

But the one person who would question that come back, if it was questionable, is Grant Dalton.  Especially after all the chirping he did during AC34.  Yet he has never questioned the circumstances behind OR's come back.  Not once.  Why is that?

WetHog  :ph34r: 

GD replied in Bermuda - in the best possible way

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10 minutes ago, WetHog said:

I can only speak for myself, but I wouldn't consider it a waste of time if the team I led just choked away an 8-1 lead to a team using an illegal device.  And you won't admit it but you know GD wouldn't have thought it a waste of time either.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

Fair enough. If I were running an Americas Cup campaign, and I had a choice between screaming protest when no ones listening, or trying to win the event (or trying not to lose) I'd pick the latter.

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5 hours ago, surfsailor said:

This is complete bullshit. The internal  (so not limited by the rule) mechanical (so no electronic data like windspeed involved) feedback loop simply meant that each button press resulted in the movement of the dagger boards by a specific increment, regardless of the hydrodynamic loads at the time - so one push would always = 0.5 degrees.

This gets really old. If you don't understand the system, look it up. If you're just a bitter, whining loser, maybe it's time to let go.

 

It was also tongue in cheek...

However the system was clearly more complicated than your sheet analogy hence the analogy attracted itself a bit of ridicule, the very fact it required a mechanical feedback loop tells us this.

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9 hours ago, MR PLOW 270 said:

there is no shame in loosing

only shame in loosing poorly

oracle have not whined about ETNZ and accused them wrongly of cheating

maybe they have learned from another teams fanbase's mistakes...

losing...

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4 hours ago, WetHog said:

But the one person who would question that come back, if it was questionable, is Grant Dalton.  Especially after all the chirping he did during AC34.  Yet he has never questioned the circumstances behind OR's come back.  Not once.  Why is that?

WetHog  :ph34r: 

Simple. Indio is a whiny cunt. He can't fathom the fact that NZ lost. 

Oddly enough, I'm struggling to find any of us Oracle fans who have lacked the basic sportsmanship to go all conspiracy theory on NZ's win. 

That muppet just can't seem to accept that sometimes, the better team wins. 

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2 hours ago, Boybland said:

It was also tongue in cheek...

However the system was clearly more complicated than your sheet analogy hence the analogy attracted itself a bit of ridicule, the very fact it required a mechanical feedback loop tells us this.

The valve bumped into the boat when the daggerboard reached the correct position, and shut itself. Just like a stopper ball bumps into a fairlead and stops itself. The 'mechanical feedback' in both cases is contact with a non-moving part of the boat. Equating that with computer-controlled flight is fucking stupid.

 

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What always strikes me with all the herbie conspiracy theories and with the argument being made by the likes of Indio about the feedback mechanism is that everything to do with this was on the boat at the start of the match. They were able to control the boards with a level of accuracy from the start. So what changed? We know they added new parts during the match. They reshaped the back of the boat. They changed the rudders to stop problems with cavitation. They re-moded the boat, changing the mast rake and they visibly changed the way they sailed the boat with beast mode and their tacks being most obvious. On the tacks, the change in technique led them coming out of tacks doing 6+ knots more than at the beginning of the match. The boat needed to be remeasured every single day because of the changes made. Yet despite all those significant changes, some want to focus on something they had on the boat from the beginning. That makes no sense. The other thing that makes no sense is the implication that making all those changes wouldn't have a marked impact on performance. 

I don't need to get into the discussion of whether the feedback mechanism was illegal, because that was not the reason why Oracle won. The changes that made Oracle faster were very obvious and totally legal.

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2 hours ago, Monkey said:

Simple. Indio is a whiny cunt. He can't fathom the fact that NZ lost. 

Oddly enough, I'm struggling to find any of us Oracle fans who have lacked the basic sportsmanship to go all conspiracy theory on NZ's win. 

That muppet just can't seem to accept that sometimes, the better team wins. 

From his posts I get the impression that @Indioknows more about this system than he posts, perhaps it is his area of expertise away from sailing too

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17 minutes ago, Rushman said:

From his posts I get the impression that @Indioknows more about this system than he posts, perhaps it is his area of expertise away from sailing too

You'd be wrong about that. Indio apparently has no idea how OR's simple 'stop' mechanism that closed the valve after the daggerboard rake had moved a specific increment (0.5 degrees if I recall correctly) worked, has no idea that it was clearly approved by the measurement committee (in his own link LOL), and on top of that has the timeline wrong - it was installed weeks BEFORE the regatta, so was certainly not part of the 'comeback' beyond already being on the boat.

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55 minutes ago, Tropical Madness said:

So when is Oracle announcing their withdrawal from AC?

How can they withdraw from something they have not entered?

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The press around the JS visit to Akld a few days ago suggested that he is looking forward to coming to NZ for the regatta!

Maybe he has another team lined up?

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2 hours ago, surfsailor said:

You'd be wrong about that. Indio apparently has no idea how OR's simple 'stop' mechanism that closed the valve after the daggerboard rake had moved a specific increment (0.5 degrees if I recall correctly) worked, has no idea that it was clearly approved by the measurement committee (in his own link LOL), and on top of that has the timeline wrong - it was installed weeks BEFORE the regatta, so was certainly not part of the 'comeback' beyond already being on the boat.

If there had been anything to " herbie " you would think that after AC 34 it might have come out but not a word from anyone that really has a clue. Then AC 35 came and went and guess what , again not a word . Its now been several years and not one substantiated fact from anyone that was actually involved on ANY team has been brought to light. The only one that has come forth with any definitive information was the guy that started " Herbiegate " himself and even he said his comments were taken way out of context and amplified into what some poor souls continue to grasp on as a last straw trying to change history. 

popular-sayings-collection-3-004.jpg

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5 hours ago, Monkey said:

Simple. Indio is a whiny cunt. He can't fathom the fact that NZ lost. 

Oddly enough, I'm struggling to find any of us Oracle fans who have lacked the basic sportsmanship to go all conspiracy theory on NZ's win. 

That muppet just can't seem to accept that sometimes, the better team wins. 

ETNZ was cheated out of AC34, pure and simple. The success of the OR-Xerox foil-control system relied on the mechanical positional feed-back device which was illegal - why can't you muppets get that through your thick domes? The Class Rule prohibited the iuse of ANY positional feed-back system - mechanical, electronic, or opticall!

As for "going all conspiracy on ETNZ's win", good luck with that:lol:!! OR-Xerox tried and were told to fuck off by the Measurement Committee. At the end of the day, everyone probably had had enough of OR-Xerox's self-serving gaming of the rules.

No loss if they don't front for AC36...at least the event won't be tainted by a convicted cheater participating.

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2 hours ago, Tropical Madness said:

So when is Oracle announcing their withdrawal from AC?

I seriously doubt they'll enter AC36. The have never looked like getting through any of the previous Challenger Selection Series to become Challenger, and with a fired up LR waiting to inflict more humiliation on them in AC36,they have nothing to offer the event. The only reason they managed to get their clammy paws on the Auld Mug was because Bertarelli fucked up by accepting an invalid YC as CoR in AC33 which opened the door to the DoG Challenge. AC33 would have been a multi-challenger event but it would not have suited OR-Xerox as they were unlikely to survive against ETNZ or LR, so they manipulated the NYSC-ordered "negotiations" with Bertarelli into the DoG match.

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52 minutes ago, Indio said:

ETNZ was cheated out of AC34, pure and simple. The success of the OR-Xerox foil-control system relied on the mechanical positional feed-back device which was illegal - why can't you muppets get that through your thick domes? The Class Rule prohibited the iuse of ANY positional feed-back system - mechanical, electronic, or opticall!

You keep going on about this as if this is why they won when it is clear that they did not win because of their foil control system. They went 8-1 down with the system. For all your righteous indignation, you have failed to address this. You say Oracle cheated. You cannot cheat if you have been given specific permission to use the system. Oracle did cheat with the AC45's, so you are correct that as a team they were cheats, but in this case, they were not cheating.

Nobody has questioned the changes that Oracle made to their boat to improve it. Those changes is why they beat ETNZ. Get over it.

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59 minutes ago, A Class Sailor said:

You keep going on about this as if this is why they won when it is clear that they did not win because of their foil control system. They went 8-1 down with the system. For all your righteous indignation, you have failed to address this. You say Oracle cheated. You cannot cheat if you have been given specific permission to use the system. Oracle did cheat with the AC45's, so you are correct that as a team they were cheats, but in this case, they were not cheating.

Nobody has questioned the changes that Oracle made to their boat to improve it. Those changes is why they beat ETNZ. Get over it.

Cheating in sports is as bad as it gets. Once you cheat in one event, you will never be taken seriously as a winner by the vast majority for a very long time, especially after a "miracle" comeback. You said it yourself "As a team they were cheats" The Russian Olympic team will not be taken seriously for a very long time, because they cheated. Its the way it is. Even those Russian athletes who did not cheat were penalized/ disqualified by association only. Cheating is cheating. If you have to resort to it, you deserve to be labelled a cheat. Oracle should have been disqualified at the time by principle alone, just as the Russian Olympic team was.That would have given the Measurement Committee and the event credibility.

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11 minutes ago, sclarke said:

Cheating in sports is as bad as it gets. Once you cheat in one event, you will never be taken seriously as a winner by the vast majority for a very long time, especially after a "miracle" comeback. You said it yourself "As a team they were cheats" The Russian Olympic team will not be taken seriously for a very long time, because they cheated. Its the way it is. Even those Russian athletes who did not cheat were penalized/ disqualified by association only. Cheating is cheating. If you have to resort to it, you deserve to be labelled a cheat. Oracle should have been disqualified at the time by principle alone, just as the Russian Olympic team was.That would have given the Measurement Committee and the event credibility.

You really need to get a life and sense of proportion. To equate what a few idiots working for Oracle did to what the Russian Olympic Team has done shows a total lack of objectivity and completely discredits anything you might say. One was State sponsored cheating on a grand scale over many years in order to win multiple medals. Or are you telling us that the US government was behind an attempt to win the America's Cup through large scale cheating?:wacko:

Pathetic!

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Just now, A Class Sailor said:

You really need to get a life and sense of proportion. To equate what a few idiots working for Oracle did to what the Russian Olympic Team has done shows a total lack of objectivity and completely discredits anything you might say. One was State sponsored cheating on a grand scale over many years in order to win multiple medals. Or are you telling us that the US government was behind an attempt to win the America's Cup through large scale cheating?:wacko:

Pathetic!

If you're a team, you win as a team, you lose as a team, and you cheat, as a team. Cheating is cheating. Proportion has nothing to do with it. State sponsored cheating/ billionaire backed cheating. In a team that is supposedly "tight" as the Oracle puff videos claim they are, no one knew about those few "idiots" in critical shore crew positions. How many Oracle videos have we seen where they talk about how important the shore crew is, how tight the team was, yet no one knew anything about what these guys were doing? Including the guys who sailed those illegally altered boats? You're either incredibly loyal, or incredibly stupid.

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1 hour ago, A Class Sailor said:

You keep going on about this as if this is why they won when it is clear that they did not win because of their foil control system.

Their miraculous up-wind performance improvement was the result of their foil-control system mod at the 11th hour.

 They went 8-1 down with the system. For all your righteous indignation, you have failed to address this.

OR-Xerox did not install the mechanical feedback device from the start because they knew it was not Class Rule-compliant. At 8/1 down, they had nothing to lose and rolled the dice - and got away cheating.

You cannot cheat if you have been given specific permission to use the system.

Wrong again: doesn't matter how often you claim it, the Measurement Committee was NEVER asked to rule on the mechanical feed-back device (which even the International Jury recognised but were helpless to do anything about it). The MC approved the HYDRAULIC SYSTEM in PI49 - which was all they were asked!!

PI_49-page-002.thumb.jpg.f84ecdf21c9f657dcc15f4275b17aa59.jpg

PI_49-page-003.thumb.jpg.326f39dbbd989596364b7e92d950f7f6.jpg

 

 

 

 

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On 8/7/2017 at 8:58 PM, Indio said:

Mate, PI49 simply asked for a ruling on the HYDRAULIC CIRCUIT which the MC approved as compliant. They were never asked to rule on the illegal mechanical feed-back system which - coincdentally!! - they specifically banned from AC35!!

PI_49.pdf

ETNZ's system was ruled compliant by the Measurement Committee in AC35 - OR-Xerox's illegal mechanical feed-back system was never ruled on by the MC. ETNZ, LR and Artemis all knew that the Class Rule prohibited any feed-back system so they made do with the foil-control systems they had. OR-Xerox was under the gun staring at 8-1 down and rolled the dice and cheated.

Except here's where the AC35 rule specifically permits it:


15.3 Control Systems for Appendage rotation about the rake axis
(a) Positional feedback for adjustment of appendage rotations about the rake axis is
permitted. Feedback and input to these control systems shall only be provided from the
following:

(i) input as allowed in Rule 15.2;
(ii) appendage rotation about the rake axis directly measured relative to the hull to
which they are attached;
and/or
(iii) the extension of hydraulic rams and/or electrical actuators that are used to control
the rotation of appendages about the rake axis, and whose extension is related
only to the appendage rotation in Rule 15.3(a)(ii).
 

 

Prob time to change up your meds.

LOL

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3 minutes ago, surfsailor said:

Except here's where the AC35 rule specifically permits it:


15.3 Control Systems for Appendage rotation about the rake axis
(a) Positional feedback for adjustment of appendage rotations about the rake axis is
permitted. Feedback and input to these control systems shall only be provided from the
following:

(i) input as allowed in Rule 15.2;
(ii) appendage rotation about the rake axis directly measured relative to the hull to
which they are attached;
and/or
(iii) the extension of hydraulic rams and/or electrical actuators that are used to control
the rotation of appendages about the rake axis, and whose extension is related
only to the appendage rotation in Rule 15.3(a)(ii).
 

 

Prob time to change up your meds.

LOL

Nice CHEATING try dickhead - try quoting the correct Class Rule for AC34, not AC35. Is cheating a cultural thing with you people??? Are you too stupid to know the difference??

For the specific exclusion of the cheating devices used by OR-Xerox in AC34, here it is:

15.2 Control Systems in General
(a) Except as provided in Rule 15.2(c) and 15.3, systems and devices used to adjust the control surfaces may only use direct manual input and/ or an internally generated timing signal initiated by manual input. Any input or feedback used by the control systems to adjust the control surfaces is not permitted unless specifically allowed by the AC Class Rule.
(b) Except as provided in Rule 15.2(c) and 15.3, control systems used to adjust control surfaces shall not use positional information of the control surface or any part of the control system, whether that positional information is measured, inferred or indicated by any method, including electronic counting, indexing or pulsing (e.g. stepper motors and indexing actuators are not permitted).

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3 minutes ago, Indio said:

Nice CHEATING try dickhead - try quoting the correct Class Rule for AC34, not AC35. Is cheating a cultural thing with you people??? Are you too stupid to know the difference??

For the specific exclusion of the cheating devices used by OR-Xerox in AC34, here it is:

15.2 Control Systems in General
(a) Except as provided in Rule 15.2(c) and 15.3, systems and devices used to adjust the control surfaces may only use direct manual input and/ or an internally generated timing signal initiated by manual input. Any input or feedback used by the control systems to adjust the control surfaces is not permitted unless specifically allowed by the AC Class Rule.
(b) Except as provided in Rule 15.2(c) and 15.3, control systems used to adjust control surfaces shall not use positional information of the control surface or any part of the control system, whether that positional information is measured, inferred or indicated by any method, including electronic counting, indexing or pulsing (e.g. stepper motors and indexing actuators are not permitted).

1) Like every other one of your posts, you flat out lied - the ACEA did NOT specifically ban the OR system from AC35 - they specifically allowed it, in a further clarification of the original ruling by the measurement committee that it was rule compliant

2) There were no stepper motors or indexing actuators used in OR's system - it was a normal cylindrical (linear) actuator and a double acting valve. You clearly don't know what an indexing actuator is:

https://rotomation.com/index.php/product-list/indexing-actuators

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34 minutes ago, Indio said:

Their miraculous up-wind performance improvement was the result of their foil-control system mod at the 11th hour.

 

 

OR-Xerox did not install the mechanical feedback device from the start because they knew it was not Class Rule-compliant. At 8/1 down, they had nothing to lose and rolled the dice - and got away cheating.

 

 

Wrong again: doesn't matter how often you claim it, the Measurement Committee was NEVER asked to rule on the mechanical feed-back device (which even the International Jury recognised but were helpless to do anything about it). The MC approved the HYDRAULIC SYSTEM in PI49 - which was all they were asked!!

PI_49-page-002.thumb.jpg.f84ecdf21c9f657dcc15f4275b17aa59.jpg

PI_49-page-003.thumb.jpg.326f39dbbd989596364b7e92d950f7f6.jpg

 

 

 

 

If you knew how to read a schematic, you would see that the system is clearly shown in this diagram, which was ruled legal. Every component is shown in the position it was in on the boat, and the mechanism is incredibly simple and easy to understand.

The only condition was that the valves be commercially available. Guess what: they were.

 

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4 minutes ago, surfsailor said:

1) Like every other one of your posts, you flat out lied - the ACEA did NOT specifically ban the OR system from AC35 - they specifically allowed it, in a further clarification of the original ruling by the measurement committee that it was rule compliant

2) There were no stepper motors or indexing actuators used in OR's system - it was a normal cylindrical (linear) actuator and a double acting valve. You clearly don't know what an indexing actuator is:

https://rotomation.com/index.php/product-list/indexing-actuators

Keep drowning in the koolaid :lol:

1: ACEA specifically banned stepper motors and indexing actuators in AC35 to eliminate the same temptation from OR-Xerox LOL!!!

2: OR-Xerox have since AC34 demonstrated two different foil-control systems in presentations - neither would work as they claimed. You can believe what you want from line schematics in PI49 - you should google more about indexing actuators because you seem lost on how they work.

But then you believe Jimmy had sush soft hands he could move the foils in 0.5-degree increments :lol:..

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3 minutes ago, surfsailor said:

If you knew how to read a schematic, you would see that the system is clearly shown in this diagram, which was ruled legal. Every component is shown in the position it was in on the boat, and the mechanism is incredibly simple and easy to understand.

The only condition was that the valves be commercially available. Guess what: they were.

 

You should give up before you burst a blood vessel. The hydraulic circuit was approved - subject to the requirement for the hydraulic valves to be available to everyone else. The MC did not have to rule on the mechanical feedback device LOL!!!

Some engineer you are!!

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Just now, Indio said:

Keep drowning in the koolaid :lol:

1: ACEA specifically banned stepper motors and indexing actuators in AC35 to eliminate the same temptation from OR-Xerox LOL!!!

2: OR-Xerox have since AC34 demonstrated two different foil-control systems in presentations - neither would work as they claimed. You can believe what you want from line schematics in PI49 - you should google more about indexing actuators because you seem lost on how they work.

But then you believe Jimmy had sush soft hands he could move the foils in 0.5-degree increments :lol:..

1) Stepper motors and indexing actuators were banned in both AC34 and AC35. That did not impact the OR system, since it used neither.

2) Just because you are too stupid to understand how something works doesn't mean it didn't.

A single button push on Jimmy's wheel moved the foils 0.5 degrees using a system that was ruled fully compliant with the rule - you've posted the ruling 20 times. Are you mentally unstable?