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7 minutes ago, Mariner said:

I don't know about your perspective these days, he was in the moment and I think everyone but you got a laugh. 

He realized he was too open last time and learned his lesson.

Dalton was far from perfect this time even, but that was just a funny quip made at an opportune moment.

Stinger is being unreasonable IMO.

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11 minutes ago, Mariner said:

I don't know about your perspective these days, he was in the moment and I think everyone but you got a laugh. 

He realized he was too open last time and learned his lesson.

Well, not 'everyone but me' exactly

http://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/opinion/94129626/americas-cup-victor-grant-dalton-makes-defeated-jimmy-spithill-look-good

http://www.radiolive.co.nz/home/opinion/2017/06/mitch-harris--whatever-happened-to-the-humble--fair-minded-kiwi-.html

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5 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

True but it's worth noting those "opinion" pieces are from laughably clueless 'sports pundits' designed to be contrarian and generate clicks to failing news site in example 1, and heated calls to a dying media - sports talkback radio in example 2. ;-)

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7 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Let's not use general media reporting as a guide of anything in terms of what is/isn't sporting or in fact even anything to do with the finer details of sport per se. They generally don't know squat and the second Dalton said what he said I would have bet the house that some NZ journo would write the exact story that was written above. They omitted any of the proper context which would have shown Dalton was being his usual sharp self and giving zero fucks about a person who had gone out of his way to be vindictive for years on end when there was no need to - including doing his best to play HR manager and suggest Dalton should be replaced.

If an argument requires support from an article that shit then the argument is already lost.

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There is no need to go to an op ed to come to a conclusion about who said what and who had class and who didn't.

 Spithill on Dalton: "It's no secret that Grant Dalton and I don't see eye-to-eye but what an effort to come back and get it done."

Dalton on Spithill: "Frankly I couldn't care less about Spithill to tell you the truth."

Thankfully, the ETNZ sailing team are cut from a different cloth and have said and done the right thing. More power to Glenn, Pete and the others. 

 

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^ Selective quoting is always the best way to reveal prejudices.

Who had class when Spithill was publicly stating that GD should resign from ETNZ?

 

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50 minutes ago, A Class Sailor said:

 Spithill on Dalton: "It's no secret that Grant Dalton and I don't see eye-to-eye but what an effort to come back and get it done."

 

What the fuck was there left for Jimmy to say, sitting in the spotlight all alone and abandoned by his masters, confronted by a media frothing to ask the obvious questions about what it felt like to realise that all the BS he'd engaged in since 2013 had come crashing down around his ears - but were too timid to ask?

He said the ONLY thing he could - just like a bully who'd just been humbled and humiliated by the skinny kid.

Dalton on Spithill: "Frankly I couldn't care less about Spithill to tell you the truth."

Quite frankly, Dalton could have said a lot worse, and he was honest. All the naive apologists can go fuck themselves royally!

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1 hour ago, KoW said:

^ Selective quoting is always the best way to reveal prejudices.

Who had class when Spithill was publicly stating that GD should resign from ETNZ?

 

You are right. I am prejudice in this case. Dalton is an arse that many in the sailing world dislike because of his constant agressively abrasive manner. Spithill is an arse as well, but the type many Australians relate to because sledging is a national sport and he knew the time and place for it. I think Jimmy was probably right. Dalton should have resigned but he did the next best thing which was to hand over the job of winning the cup to an Australian:P

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OK so your argument is Jimmy Spithill is "classy" because he's good at sledging which makes him an outstanding Australian(?)... :rolleyes: 

2 minutes ago, A Class Sailor said:

Dalton is an arse that many in the sailing world dislike because of his constant agressively abrasive manner. 

^ Swap "Dalton" with "Spithill" in this sentence and many would agree that you've perfectly captured the truth of the matter.

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7 minutes ago, A Class Sailor said:

You are right. I am prejudice in this case. Dalton is an arse that many in the sailing world dislike because of his constant agressively abrasive manner. Spithill is an arse as well, but the type many Australians relate to because sledging is a national sport and he knew the time and place for it. I think Jimmy was probably right. Dalton should have resigned but he did the next best thing which was to hand over the job of winning the cup to an Australian:P

Dalton IS an arse but Jimmy is a bigger one.

I have the utmost respect for both men's achievements but not a lot of respect for the public personas that they project.

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Just now, A Class Sailor said:

So if I put Dalton and/or Spithill I should keep everybody happy.:D When you say "many" I think that should be "many NZers".

Keep everbody happy?  Tell em they're dreaming! 

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11 minutes ago, jaysper said:

Dalton IS an arse but Jimmy is a bigger one.

I have the utmost respect for both men's achievements but not a lot of respect for the public personas that they project.

I'm not sure either really enjoy the spotlight. Most of the journalists ask questions that should not be answered or fluffy shit that offers sweet fuck all to anyone. PB mastered the avoiding reply by saying whatever the fuck he wanted. These guys are sailors, not PR experts. 

Dalts is gruff, Jimmy's a CUNT. Big difference. 

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1 minute ago, Barnacle Bill said:

I'm not sure either really enjoy the spotlight. Most of the journalists ask questions that should not be answered or fluffy shit that offers sweet fuck all to anyone. PB mastered the avoiding reply by saying whatever the fuck he wanted. These guys are sailors, not PR experts. 

Dalts's just gruff, Jimmy's a CUNT. Big difference. 

Dalton is gruff towards most people. Jimmy is a cunt only towards Dalton :P

Seriously, I know Jimmy, as many A Class sailors do here in Australia and overseas. The vast majority would say he is a good guy. I don't know Dalton, but the few people I know who do don't talk about him anywhere near as positively as some on here (who probably don't know him at all) make out. Both should be respected for their achievements. I take the vast majority of what both say during the course of their jobs with a pinch of salt. They are both winding each other up, genuinely dislike each other and it's almost part of their jobs. It is why in the end, when it is all over, I believe you see the real person and their true nature. It doesn't matter what has goine before. You need to be magnanimous in victory and humble in defeat. Jimmy was went far further than he needed to in defeat, Dalton was an arse in victory. That speaks heaps for their characters. What I do I love the fact that the sailors could get together for a drink and that Glenn and Jimmy remain close friends. If the sailors had fallen out over what was said, then I would have a very different view. 

 

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6 minutes ago, A Class Sailor said:

Dalton is gruff towards most people. Jimmy is a cunt only towards Dalton :P

Seriously, I know Jimmy, as many A Class sailors do here in Australia and overseas. The vast majority would say he is a good guy. I don't know Dalton, but the few people I know who do don't talk about him anywhere near as positively as some on here (who probably don't know him at all) make out. Both should be respected for their achievements. I take the vast majority of what both say during the course of their jobs with a pinch of salt. They are both winding each other up, genuinely dislike each other and it's almost part of their jobs. It is why in the end, when it is all over, I believe you see the real person and their true nature. It doesn't matter what has goine before. You need to be magnanimous in victory and humble in defeat. Jimmy was went far further than he needed to in defeat, Dalton was an arse in victory. That speaks heaps for their characters. What I do I love the fact that the sailors could get together for a drink and that Glenn and Jimmy remain close friends. If the sailors had fallen out over what was said, then I would have a very different view. 

 

I've spent a fair bit of time with Dalts. He's old school but the kind of guy people want to be around and work with. He doesn't suffer fools however, and in no way tolerates false cunts or people that remind him of his failures. 

His sense of humor is sharp and fast. Often he cracks jokes with his facial expressions and without saying a word you can know exactly what he's thinking. 

Dalton is the guy you want on your side and fear the day he's not. 

 

 

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2 hours ago, A Class Sailor said:

There is no need to go to an op ed to come to a conclusion about who said what and who had class and who didn't.

 Spithill on Dalton: "It's no secret that Grant Dalton and I don't see eye-to-eye but what an effort to come back and get it done."

Dalton on Spithill: "Frankly I couldn't care less about Spithill to tell you the truth."

Thankfully, the ETNZ sailing team are cut from a different cloth and have said and done the right thing. More power to Glenn, Pete and the others. 

 

Your argument loses much of its basis when you curate sentences in that manner...

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1 hour ago, A Class Sailor said:

That speaks heaps for their characters.

What does it say about Jimmy's character when they were convicted of cheating in the ACWS kingpost scandal? What does it say about Jimmy's character when he knowingly helmed an AC72 that was not Rules-compliant after their 11th-hour modifications in AC34?

I know who I'd rather go to war with. Dalton is a typical Kiwi who calls a spade a spade and doesn't worry about hurting the poor sensitive darlings' feelings. Barker would have been just as successful as Spithill if their positions were reversed. But Barker would have been the same nice guy he is today....

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4 hours ago, A Class Sailor said:

There is no need to go to an op ed to come to a conclusion about who said what and who had class and who didn't.

 Spithill on Dalton: "It's no secret that Grant Dalton and I don't see eye-to-eye but what an effort to come back and get it done."

Dalton on Spithill: "Frankly I couldn't care less about Spithill to tell you the truth."

You have framed it as if Dalton was responding to that comment by Spithill. He was not. He was responding in an interview shortly after the cup was won where he was asked by the interviewer (Hosking), "How do you feel for Spithill?"

That is what he was replying to. He followed it with the context-adding, "He was quite keen to get me ousted and probably has a good reason now."

His comment was massively misconstrued for the sake of writing a story. It was a nothing comment basically that did nothing to undo the way ETNZ has conducted itself during years of poor sportsmanship and general nastiness from Spithill himself, regardless of whatever else OR was up to with the rules etc.

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3 hours ago, Indio said:

What the fuck was there left for Jimmy to say, sitting in the spotlight all alone and abandoned by his masters, confronted by a media frothing to ask the obvious questions about what it felt like to realise that all the BS he'd engaged in since 2013 had come crashing down around his ears - but were too timid to ask?

He said the ONLY thing he could - just like a bully who'd just been humbled and humiliated by the skinny kid.

+ 1. Top post.

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6 hours ago, Indio said:

What the fuck was there left for Jimmy to say, sitting in the spotlight all alone and abandoned by his masters, confronted by a media frothing to ask the obvious questions about what it felt like to realise that all the BS he'd engaged in since 2013 had come crashing down around his ears - but were too timid to ask?

He said the ONLY thing he could - just like a bully who'd just been humbled and humiliated by the skinny kid.

 

 

Quite frankly, Dalton could have said a lot worse, and he was honest. All the naive apologists can go fuck themselves royally!

yup,

was time to flush the Jimmy.

although i have to say my characterisation of Jimmy has been greatly tempered by the interview of his brother by the lovely Sailor Girl. His bro is a lout, and i'd enjoy a few tinnies with him. And i'd probly enjoy a beer or two with Jimmy when he takes off his OR shirt. Kinda like professional wrestling.

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I guess it will be a tough gig trying to pursuade some of the NZ people that Jimmy is OK, but I will take issue with one comment

17 hours ago, Indio said:

What the fuck was there left for Jimmy to say,

There was no reason at all for Jimmy to say anything about Dalton, never mind anything good but he chose to. It was a personal comment that was genuinely made that he did not need to make. 

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1 hour ago, A Class Sailor said:

I guess it will be a tough gig trying to pursuade some of the NZ people that Jimmy is OK, but I will take issue with one comment

There was no reason at all for Jimmy to say anything about Dalton, never mind anything good but he chose to. It was a personal comment that was genuinely made that he did not need to make. 

This might surprise you but I like Jimmy - I like his attitude, his work ethic, his professionalism, and I'm comfortable enough in my ability to differentiate between Jimmy-the-wind-up merchant and the  off-camera Jimmy who, from all accounts, is a terrific fun person. You won't find me pouring any hate on Jimmy. I was the first one to point out that Jimmy seemed to be pre-occupied with some issues prior to the start of and during the LV-ACQs and hoped that he wasn't getting scapegoated by his masters..

However, what I do take exception to is the naive criticism by numerous professional apologists (not a few of them Kiwis!!) of Grant Dalton, who've selected one sentence out of context as the basis of their criticism. When Grant was asked by a jouno if he felt for Jimmy, Grant gave an honest reply that frankly he couldn't care less about Spithill - this is as honest a reply as I expected given their history and Jimmy's attempts at undermining Dalton since 2013, efforts I suggest are outside his job definition with OR-Xerox. The professional apologists and some Aussie-media "journos" (stuff.co.nz) would rather that Dalton had muttered some false platitudes about Jimmy and OR-Xerox as "worthy opponents" which would have been completely transparent to the public - and which no doubt would have drawn criticisms of Dalton being hypocritical!!!

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23 hours ago, A Class Sailor said:

Seriously, I know Jimmy, as many A Class sailors do here in Australia and overseas. The vast majority would say he is a good guy.

If you say so. Most of us can only go by the public persona he has chosen to present and as far as that goes, he comes over as the kind of person I'd cross the street to avoid. Unbearable, far too much testosterone.

Dalton, on the other hand, comes over as someone with whom I'd like to have a beer. Gruff, OK, I don't mind gruff. I don't see why he'd be expected to pretend to have some sympathy for Spithill at that point. Do we actually admire the ability to feign emotion we don't feel?

 

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6 hours ago, Indio said:

This might surprise you but I like Jimmy - I like his attitude, his work ethic, his professionalism...

His attitude? You mean the attitude where he needlessly says things only an asshole would on dozens upon dozens of occasions? Things which serve no purpose ultimately except making a rod for his own back and were going on even as recently as the end of the round robin series of this AC.

FWIW this also reflects on his professionalism or lack thereof in a sporting sense. He may think it's funny or that he scored some sort of "wins" in a circle-jerk sort of way but if someone is labelled professional despite acting like that repeatedly across a number of years then I think we have very different ideas of what the word means.

Glenn Ashby was professional if you need an example of professionalism.

 

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32 minutes ago, bob202 said:

His attitude? You mean the attitude where he needlessly says things only an asshole would on dozens upon dozens of occasions? Things which serve no purpose ultimately except making a rod for his own back and were going on even as recently as the end of the round robin series of this AC.

FWIW this also reflects on his professionalism or lack thereof in a sporting sense. He may think it's funny or that he scored some sort of "wins" in a circle-jerk sort of way but if someone is labelled professional despite acting like that repeatedly across a number of years then I think we have very different ideas of what the word means.

Glenn Ashby was professional if you need an example of professionalism.

 

Couldn't agree more

Being humble and doing things slowly in a professional manner, not berating your opponents will only make you stand out as a solid person/sportsman.

Jimmy clearly thought they were unbeatable and dived in hard with the arrogance to aid his team along the way, this tripped him up towards the end and backfired.

Had Oracle won, he would appear to be one of the greatest rockstar sailors ever, but they didn't and he isn't.......

A list of professional sailors can be very easily drawn up and JS would not feature highly at all, he just fitted in with Larry's arrogant nature and bulldozed his way to the top.

It will be interested to see what he does next - I might eat my words

 

Glenn is a great example but the big surprise was PB, what a great quality to have at such a young age.

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1 hour ago, bob202 said:

His attitude? You mean the attitude where he needlessly says things only an asshole would on dozens upon dozens of occasions? Things which serve no purpose ultimately except making a rod for his own back and were going on even as recently as the end of the round robin series of this AC.

FWIW this also reflects on his professionalism or lack thereof in a sporting sense. He may think it's funny or that he scored some sort of "wins" in a circle-jerk sort of way but if someone is labelled professional despite acting like that repeatedly across a number of years then I think we have very different ideas of what the word means.

Glenn Ashby was professional if you need an example of professionalism.

 

I'm not confusing his competitive attitude or his sailing professionalism with the mouthy Spithill of AC34 and AC35. For whatever reasons - and we all pretty much have a fair idea of those "motivations" for his public behaviour - the guy is good at what he does. Remains to be seen whether he can pick himself up post-AC35, but certainly post-AC33 he was good - though Uncle Larry's $$$ must have helped tremendously. I think he got caught up in Sir Russell's slipstream post-AC34, but when ETNZ methodically dismantled their on-the-water capabilities, he was left alone and abandoned to take the public hits. To date, only Jimmy has fronted up to the media (in the pressers), with Sir Russell and Uncle Larry deafeningly silent..

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JS appeared to be more driven by his ego than what was best for his team in AC 35.

Refusing to give up any weight for the rest of the crew and refusing to give up the helm

RC threw JS under the bus a couple of times - first obviously by attempting to put TS on the helm

The 2nd time was in an interview halfway through the match when the writing on the wall was fairly clear and RC said Jimmy made all the decisions for the team. :lol:

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15 minutes ago, nav said:

The 2nd time was in an interview halfway through the match when the writing on the wall was fairly clear and RC said Jimmy made all the decisions for the team. :lol:

Spihtill took the step up to management in the last 2 or 3 years. But it's been an abject failure basically if you look at it from the ultimate test: results. He failed to contribute to creating the best boat or team, appears to have arrogantly dismissed different ways to do things and then got lead shoes when the team needed to step up and deliver.

I almost wonder if that is why he was mouthing off so readily - he was under pressure to deliver, knew he was falling well short of Coutts's previous level to balance sailing and management and his manner of reacting was to engage in the thing that makes no difference at all - mouthing off.

For all his bluster and self-professed legend at hustling I don't actually see his legend in his helming results, certainly not like the other top helmsmen in this AC - not in AC33 (OR had a massively better boat so as to make it a non-event), not in AC34 (was being spanked until the boat was improved and Ainslie came on board and told him to STFU and "steer the boat" as you are told), and then an 8-1 spanking in AC35 including legit winning maybe 2 starts out of 9. He's had 10 years of mostly enjoying the success of having the biggest funder in the game backing what he did. Save for his match racing success what else is there compared to what Outteridge, Ainslie, Burling have achieved in that time?

He's had plenty of good moments but for sure but how badly OR was outdone here cannot just be passed off as being wholly due an inferior boat. Spithill was a possum stuck in the headlights imo and having taken on board lots of extra responsibility within the team was probably beyond his capabilities.

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^ Seems fair, except maybe for asking what else he has achieved - after making a full time commitment to the AC (as helm & skipper & go-to PR person & Larry whisperer & manager (AC36... apparently) )

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40 minutes ago, weta27 said:

Guess who's coming down to give us some advice?

PUPEMAILHEADER15JULY2017.jpg

Probably booked in before he got the rubber glove.

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2 hours ago, weta27 said:

Guess who's coming down to give us some advice?

PUPEMAILHEADER15JULY2017.jpg

With the title of the presentation, there's only sailing entity fit to speak on it - Grant Dalton.

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3 hours ago, weta27 said:

Guess who's coming down to give us some advice?

PUPEMAILHEADER15JULY2017.jpg

I bet the Chamber of Commerce wishes they hadn't booked him so long ago and had booked someone else like GD or PB instead.

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17 hours ago, weta27 said:

Guess who's coming down to give us some advice?

PUPEMAILHEADER15JULY2017.jpg

Need to change that header to, "Performing Under Pressure...or Not"

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From the linked link

--

Jimmy is the world's most successful racing skipper, and at 37 has already reached legendary status. In 2013 he led Oracle Team USA to victory against New Zealand against massive odds, recovering from 1-8 to win 9-8 (the Wall Street Journal called it 'one of the greatest comebacks in sports history'), and is the skipper for Oracle's upcoming 2017 America's Cup defence as well. This is his autobiography, and it opens with a young Jimmy in hospital about to have surgery on his leg, being told by the doctors he'll never be much good at sport. This sparks a life-long determination to prove them wrong. He won his first race aged 10, and using a credit card to pay for travel he went on winning races all over the country, and then the world. He debuted in the America's Cup as a skipper at age 20, and after a tough legal battle to free himself from his contract with the Young Australia team, he sailed in the next two Cups before becoming the youngest ever winner of the America's Cup in 2010, as helmsman and skipper of BMW Oracle Team 90, only to win it again three years later in 2013. This book is far from the usual media-trained official account you often get, especially in the closed-off world of the America's Cup. Jimmy's open, honest style gives us a rare insight into what goes on in the head of an extremely focused man at the top of his game. It's a rags-to-riches story of fierce determination, court cases, seasickness, crashed boats and cars, alcohol and winning against all the odds. And it all contributed to turning a quiet, bullied, water-loving blue-collar redhead born in Sydney into one of sailing's biggest rockstars. A compelling read, with many lessons in leadership, teamwork and achieving your dreams, no matter how impossible they seem.

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1 hour ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Too bad about the slagging headline but:

That is my next book purchase! I bet it's a great story.

 

Meh. I won't bother.

On the other hand, if Dalts brings out an AC book then maybe I'll borrow it from the library.

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2 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Meh. I won't bother.

On the other hand, if Dalts brings out an AC book then maybe I'll borrow it from the library.

The JS book could be pretty gritty.

I wish AC Encyclopedia TE would publish a book but I suspect it would be more 'on the classy side' - for history's sake.  Interesting nevertheless but a completely different life experience than JS's.

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1 hour ago, Sailbydate said:

Meh. I won't bother.

On the other hand, if Dalts brings out an AC book then maybe I'll borrow it from the library.

Dalts did mention (tongue-in-cheek, I would suggest) in one of the interviews where he was responding to the Coutts social media rant on the foils, to wait til his book comes out :lol:.

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10 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

 

 

You really are trashing OR for that? 

The Endeavor and RBYAC efforts were big, let's just wait and see what-all GD does to top them.

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On 7/15/2017 at 2:17 PM, ~Stingray~ said:

You really are trashing OR for that? 

The Endeavor and RBYAC efforts were big, let's just wait and see what-all GD does to top them.

What a nice thing that oracle did for these kids.......Did ETNZ do anything for these kids, I hope they did

 

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On 7/15/2017 at 9:46 AM, ~Stingray~ said:

From the linked link

--

Jimmy is the world's most successful racing skipper, and at 37 has already reached legendary status. In 2013 he led Oracle Team USA to victory against New Zealand against massive odds, recovering from 1-8 to win 9-8 (the Wall Street Journal called it 'one of the greatest comebacks in sports history'), and is the skipper for Oracle's upcoming 2017 America's Cup defence as well. This is his autobiography, and it opens with a young Jimmy in hospital about to have surgery on his leg, being told by the doctors he'll never be much good at sport. This sparks a life-long determination to prove them wrong. He won his first race aged 10, and using a credit card to pay for travel he went on winning races all over the country, and then the world. He debuted in the America's Cup as a skipper at age 20, and after a tough legal battle to free himself from his contract with the Young Australia team, he sailed in the next two Cups before becoming the youngest ever winner of the America's Cup in 2010, as helmsman and skipper of BMW Oracle Team 90, only to win it again three years later in 2013. This book is far from the usual media-trained official account you often get, especially in the closed-off world of the America's Cup. Jimmy's open, honest style gives us a rare insight into what goes on in the head of an extremely focused man at the top of his game. It's a rags-to-riches story of fierce determination, court cases, seasickness, crashed boats and cars, alcohol and winning against all the odds. And it all contributed to turning a quiet, bullied, water-loving blue-collar redhead born in Sydney into one of sailing's biggest rockstars. A compelling read, with many lessons in leadership, teamwork and achieving your dreams, no matter how impossible they seem.

Ii also help to have a Billionaire give you a speed advantage, which what he had in 2010 and 2013 but once he faced a faster boat he crumbled like a pack of cards. This guy is no Dennis Conner in size or sailing ability or wit or organization skills.  Actually he did have some wit I like the line 

One day you are a rooster, and the next day you are a feather duster

Actually he and Coutts and Butterworth should create a Canadian AC team  team called..................... Canadian United Nautical Team

I'm sure he would make a great skipper

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Rooster and next a feather duster quote I think was a Peter Montgomery original, well, that's when I heard it first, maybe 20-25 years ago ... so it's very much passe to Kiwis now.

 

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On 15/07/2017 at 9:26 AM, Trafficker said:

A bit presumptuous of Jimmy to call himself unstoppable, before the match...

Jimmy Spithill had to change the name of his biography

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11890990

The last chapter is going to make great reading!

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11 hours ago, Groucho Marx said:

Rooster and next a feather duster quote I think was a Peter Montgomery original, well, that's when I heard it first, maybe 20-25 years ago ... so it's very much passe to Kiwis now.

 

 

Origin of Rooster - Feather Duster expression.PNG

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I can't see anyone make big calls until we see what the Kiwis and Italians come up with rules wise.  Not only with regards to boat type but also CIC and crew nationality.

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On 14/07/2017 at 11:49 AM, weta27 said:

Guess who's coming down to give us some advice?

PUPEMAILHEADER15JULY2017.jpg

 

On 14/07/2017 at 2:27 PM, Indio said:

With the title of the presentation, there's only sailing entity fit to speak on it - Grant Dalton.

You might not like Spithill or Oracle, but 8-1 down seems to me to be more pressure as any sailing team has ever been under and they came through it. Irrespective of how well ETNZ did this time around and the expectation after last time, they were never under the pressure that was seen in the latter part of AC34. The top teams had just as much pressure as each other this time around

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18 minutes ago, A Class Sailor said:

 

You might not like Spithill or Oracle, but 8-1 down seems to me to be more pressure as any sailing team has ever been under and they came through it. Irrespective of how well ETNZ did this time around and the expectation after last time, they were never under the pressure that was seen in the latter part of AC34. The top teams had just as much pressure as each other this time around

Mate, I have a lot of time for Spithill - it's the collective OR-Xerox organisation management I despise. The only pressure OR-Xerox were under 8-1 down in AC34 was the risk of discovery of the illegal mechanical feed-back device they installed at the 11th hour. They were under more pressure in AC35 from the moment they saw the cyclors, compounded by their losses to Artemis in their training sessions when ETNZ were still in Auckland. Had Artemis managed to get by ETNZ in the LV-ACQ Final, I have no doubt that they would have thrashed OR-Xerox as well.

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A little last minute side deal?

WTF?

Marc Allen Fine Clothiers Named Exclusive America’s Cup Retailer in RI, Portion of Proceeds to Support Sail Newport

Written by Ryan Belmore, August 3, 2017

 

http://whatsupnewp.com/marc-allen-fine-clothiers-named-exclusive-americas-cup-retailer-in-ri-portion-of-proceeds-to-support-sail-newport/

 

expect a call!

 

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9 hours ago, E63sccb said:

ETNZ, did more than buying a couple of optis for a community that Orifice screwed out of millions and left a wasteland behind. NZL restored the sense of sportsmanship, seamanship and honor  to the sport, reinstated the possibility to dream that anything is possible even when confronted with the biggest cheaters, pricks and assholes of the world.

so what your trying to say is that ETNZ did shit all but win the cup

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14 hours ago, MR PLOW 270 said:

so what your trying to say is that ETNZ did shit all but win the cup

Sometimes instilling a mindset can do a lot more than throwing around a few bucks can ever do.

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On 8/4/2017 at 0:14 PM, Indio said:

Mate, I have a lot of time for Spithill - it's the collective OR-Xerox organisation management I despise. The only pressure OR-Xerox were under 8-1 down in AC34 was the risk of discovery of the illegal mechanical feed-back device they installed at the 11th hour. They were under more pressure in AC35 from the moment they saw the cyclors, compounded by their losses to Artemis in their training sessions when ETNZ were still in Auckland. Had Artemis managed to get by ETNZ in the LV-ACQ Final, I have no doubt that they would have thrashed OR-Xerox as well.

surely you do not believe in herbie still

if it had existed, they would have been disqualified under the protest

8 hours ago, sclarke said:

Sometimes instilling a mindset can do a lot more than throwing around a few bucks can ever do.

fair cop

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5 hours ago, MR PLOW 270 said:

if it had existed, they would have been disqualified under the protest

Not debating the existence or otherwise, but I don't believe this part is true.  IIRC the measurement committee interpretation was protested but the protest was deemed to be too late.  Once the interpretation was set in stone, OR-17 was technically class compliant so any protest would have almost certainly failed. 

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2 hours ago, ezyb said:

Not debating the existence or otherwise, but I don't believe this part is true.  IIRC the measurement committee interpretation was protested but the protest was deemed to be too late.  Once the interpretation was set in stone, OR-17 was technically class compliant so any protest would have almost certainly failed. 

The International Jury recognised the non-compliance of the feedback device in their decision when declining the ETNZ protest, but could do nothing about it as they are/were an arbitration entity not a proactive rules-enforcement and policing entity.

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9 hours ago, MR PLOW 270 said:

surely you do not believe in herbie still

if it had existed, they would have been disqualified under the protest

fair cop

I think its interesting that when full herbie finally got busted there was the whole argument that it still took input control (Jimmy's buttons) then systems judged how much it would move with the videos we saw and timing that the board mored 4 times in one second so it must be somewhat controlled by computers even with user input. 

Then we find out that is essentially how ETNZ controlled their foil in this cup, as Draper said in the finals on NBC in the US that they believed they used some sort of algorithm to control the board once there is user input, even after Tuke just put the board where the computer told him.

Both systems deemed legal, when Oracle uses it it's unfair, destroying the sport, and cheating, and when ETNZ does it's revolutionary, thinking outside the box, and why they are so much smarter? Doesn't add up, shows so many are just here to spew rhetoric.  

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1 hour ago, Indio said:

The International Jury recognised the non-compliance of the feedback device in their decision when declining the ETNZ protest, but could do nothing about it as they are/were an arbitration entity not a proactive rules-enforcement and policing entity.

Read 15.12  again.

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2 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Read 15.12  again.

This one you dumb fuck!?!?

"15.12. The Jury shall act as an arbitration body. The legal seat of the Jury is the State of New York. However, the Jury may carry out actions that fall within its jurisdiction at the Venue, or other places it deems appropriate, or by correspondence or other means of communication at a distance. The Jury proceedings shall be governed by the U.S. Federal
Arbitration Act and by the New York Convention of 1958 on the Recognition and Enforcement of Arbitral Awards. The Jury shall act fairly and impartially, provide equal treatment and a fair opportunity to be heard given the circumstances in which the decision must be made."

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8 hours ago, Nauti Buoy said:

I think its interesting that when full herbie finally got busted there was the whole argument that it still took input control (Jimmy's buttons) then systems judged how much it would move with the videos we saw and timing that the board mored 4 times in one second so it must be somewhat controlled by computers even with user input. 

Then we find out that is essentially how ETNZ controlled their foil in this cup, as Draper said in the finals on NBC in the US that they believed they used some sort of algorithm to control the board once there is user input, even after Tuke just put the board where the computer told him.

Both systems deemed legal, when Oracle uses it it's unfair, destroying the sport, and cheating, and when ETNZ does it's revolutionary, thinking outside the box, and why they are so much smarter? Doesn't add up, shows so many are just here to spew rhetoric.  

OR-Xerox's feedback device in AC34 was not "deemed" legal. And if you can't tell the difference between the OR-Xerox cheating device and ETNZ's compliant system, no amount of explanation will help you.

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6 hours ago, Indio said:

This one you dumb fuck!?!?

"15.12. The Jury shall act as an arbitration body. The legal seat of the Jury is the State of New York. However, the Jury may carry out actions that fall within its jurisdiction at the Venue, or other places it deems appropriate, or by correspondence or other means of communication at a distance. The Jury proceedings shall be governed by the U.S. Federal
Arbitration Act and by the New York Convention of 1958 on the Recognition and Enforcement of Arbitral Awards. The Jury shall act fairly and impartially, provide equal treatment and a fair opportunity to be heard given the circumstances in which the decision must be made."

And now the IJ statement.

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9 hours ago, Nauti Buoy said:

I think its interesting that when full herbie finally got busted there was the whole argument that it still took input control (Jimmy's buttons) then systems judged how much it would move with the videos we saw and timing that the board mored 4 times in one second so it must be somewhat controlled by computers even with user input. 

Then we find out that is essentially how ETNZ controlled their foil in this cup, as Draper said in the finals on NBC in the US that they believed they used some sort of algorithm to control the board once there is user input, even after Tuke just put the board where the computer told him.

Both systems deemed legal, when Oracle uses it it's unfair, destroying the sport, and cheating, and when ETNZ does it's revolutionary, thinking outside the box, and why they are so much smarter? Doesn't add up, shows so many are just here to spew rhetoric.  

It's a coplete apples and oranges comparison. OR's 'system' in AC 34 simply meant that the boards moved in precise half degree increments - 1 button push = 0.5 degrees, 2 button pushes = 1.0 degrees etc. They did this by moving the valves onto the foil casings - there was a closed (within the system) mechanical feedback loop - no computers were involved or connected. It was a clever system that was ruled legal. ETNZ subsequently protested, but their protest was deemed too late - the OR system was installed 3 weeks before the beginning of the racing.

What ETNZ had running in AC35 (from my understanding) was full computerized flight control, except they inserted a human in the command chain via a transparent touch screen over a display, making it legal - the computer moved a dot on the screen, and a human followed the dot with his finger, which in turn controlled the flight.

OR (or ETNZ, but especially OR who was late to the game, destroyed their first boat, and could barely jibe at the beginning of the regatta) simply did not have the data in AC34 to create anything like that - never mind the fact that their foil adjustments were far too crude, and the amount of hydraulic power needed to do something like that on the AC72s was far beyond the capabilities of the hydraulic systems in those boats.

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19 minutes ago, Indio said:

You're too dumb to be allowed out on your own!!

So you assess points while the protocol is telling the contrary and without being able to provide the proof of your point ?

Now, can you entertain us with your "CoR challenger that will change status when the prot is signed" Perhaps you can prove your point in the Deed as well. :lol:

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6 minutes ago, surfsailor said:

 

It was a clever system that was ruled legal

Fake news - the mechanical feed-back device was never ruled on by the Measurement Committee, otherwise it would have been ruled out as illegal. There was nothing "smart" about their system: ETNZ, LR and Artemis could have installed similar systems as the obvious solution to their foil-controls, but they all realised that no feed-back system was permitted under the Class Rule.

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8 hours ago, Indio said:

Fake news - the mechanical feed-back device was never ruled on by the Measurement Committee, otherwise it would have been ruled out as illegal. There was nothing "smart" about their system: ETNZ, LR and Artemis could have installed similar systems as the obvious solution to their foil-controls, but they all realised that no feed-back system was permitted under the Class Rule.

You're half right. It was ruled legal - the system (like every other component and mod that went on the boats) was presented to the measurement committee, and approved. Just like ETNZ's stacked touch pad set up in AC 35. So you're dead wrong about that.

But you're right about it not being a 'smart' system (which would imply computer control) - there was no computer driven flight control on OR in AC34. That was fake news.

There was, however, computer-driven flight control on ETNZ in AC 35. You know, the thing the NZ yachting press was falsely accusing OR of in AC34, which subsequently regurgitated ad nauseum on this forum.

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^ Maybe you should compare the sections in the AC72 rule and the ACC rule with regard to manual control, feedback etc before carrying on as if the situation was the same in AC 34 as it was in AC 35 :(

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^ That was the measurement committee's job. They ruled on it - correctly in my view as an engineer, incorrectly in Indio's view as a bitter loser looking for excuses in 2013 - weeks before the regatta. The debate comes down to whether the 'feedback' was external to the mechanism - it was the functional equivalent of having a stopper ball on a sheet, so that it only moved a specific amount when released. Is that still 'manual control'? I say it is.

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12 hours ago, surfsailor said:

You're half right. It was ruled legal - the system (like every other component and mod that went on the boats) was presented to the measurement committee, and approved. Just like ETNZ's stacked touch pad set up in AC 35. So you're dead wrong about that.

But you're right about it not being a 'smart' system (which would imply computer control) - there was no computer driven flight control on OR in AC34. That was fake news.

There was, however, computer-driven flight control on ETNZ in AC 35. You know, the thing the NZ yachting press was falsely accusing OR of in AC34, which subsequently regurgitated ad nauseum on this forum.

Mate, PI49 simply asked for a ruling on the HYDRAULIC CIRCUIT which the MC approved as compliant. They were never asked to rule on the illegal mechanical feed-back system which - coincdentally!! - they specifically banned from AC35!!

PI_49.pdf

ETNZ's system was ruled compliant by the Measurement Committee in AC35 - OR-Xerox's illegal mechanical feed-back system was never ruled on by the MC. ETNZ, LR and Artemis all knew that the Class Rule prohibited any feed-back system so they made do with the foil-control systems they had. OR-Xerox was under the gun staring at 8-1 down and rolled the dice and cheated.

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15 hours ago, surfsailor said:

^ That was the measurement committee's job. They ruled on it - correctly in my view as an engineer, incorrectly in Indio's view as a bitter loser looking for excuses in 2013 - weeks before the regatta. The debate comes down to whether the 'feedback' was external to the mechanism - it was the functional equivalent of having a stopper ball on a sheet, so that it only moved a specific amount when released. Is that still 'manual control'? I say it is.

More like 10 stopper balls of differing sizes that stop at differing amounts and selected based on the current load and angle of apparent wind and operate in both directions... But yeah we get your point.  :ph34r:

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6 hours ago, Indio said:

Mate, PI49 simply asked for a ruling on the HYDRAULIC CIRCUIT which the MC approved as compliant. They were never asked to rule on the illegal mechanical feed-back system which - coincdentally!! - they specifically banned from AC35!!

PI_49.pdf

ETNZ's system was ruled compliant by the Measurement Committee in AC35 - OR-Xerox's illegal mechanical feed-back system was never ruled on by the MC. ETNZ, LR and Artemis all knew that the Class Rule prohibited any feed-back system so they made do with the foil-control systems they had. OR-Xerox was under the gun staring at 8-1 down and rolled the dice and cheated.

there is no shame in loosing

only shame in loosing poorly

oracle have not whined about ETNZ and accused them wrongly of cheating

maybe they have learned from another teams fanbase's mistakes...

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6 hours ago, ColinG said:

FFS you won, get over it

Think about who you are asking to get over it.  No chance.  :lol:

WetHog  :ph34r:

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2 hours ago, MR PLOW 270 said:

there is no shame in loosing

only shame in loosing poorly

oracle have not whined about ETNZ and accused them wrongly of cheating

maybe they have learned from another teams fanbase's mistakes...

Then again, ETNZ have never been caught cheating. Oracle was caught both spying and cheating. When you've cheated once, that label stays with you forever. As it will with Lance Armstrong. Thats just the way it is. They cheated and then had a "miracle" comeback. Gotta admit, when you say that, it does sound slightly questionable.

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5 hours ago, Boybland said:

More like 10 stopper balls of differing sizes that stop at differing amounts and selected based on the current load and angle of apparent wind and operate in both directions... But yeah we get your point.  :ph34r:

This is complete bullshit. The internal  (so not limited by the rule) mechanical (so no electronic data like windspeed involved) feedback loop simply meant that each button press resulted in the movement of the dagger boards by a specific increment, regardless of the hydrodynamic loads at the time - so one push would always = 0.5 degrees.

This gets really old. If you don't understand the system, look it up. If you're just a bitter, whining loser, maybe it's time to let go.

 

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7 minutes ago, sclarke said:

Then again, ETNZ have never been caught cheating. Oracle was caught both spying and cheating. When you've cheated once, that label stays with you forever. As it will with Lance Armstrong. Thats just the way it is. They cheated and then had a "miracle" comeback. Gotta admit, when you say that, it does sound slightly questionable.

9 hours ago, Indio said:

Mate, PI49 simply asked for a ruling on the HYDRAULIC CIRCUIT which the MC approved as compliant. They were never asked to rule on the illegal mechanical feed-back system which - coincdentally!! - they specifically banned from AC35!!

PI_49.pdf

ETNZ's system was ruled compliant by the Measurement Committee in AC35 - OR-Xerox's illegal mechanical feed-back system was never ruled on by the MC. ETNZ, LR and Artemis all knew that the Class Rule prohibited any feed-back system so they made do with the foil-control systems they had. OR-Xerox was under the gun staring at 8-1 down and rolled the dice and cheated.

That diagram - which the measurement committee deemed legal - clearly shows the valve located on the moving part (daggerboard casing) and the actuator on a non-moving 'reference' part (the hull). The mechanical 'feedback loop' is patently obvious to anyone who can read a simple diagram, and - as I noted - because it is within the system as a whole (no outside input) it certainly meets the requirements of the 2013 rule.

I have yet to see where this simple work-around to index board position was 'banned' from AC 35, a regatta which was won by a boat that moved it's foils in 3 dimensions by following computer instructions (that were based on all kinds of ride height, orientation and aero data) by having one of the crew track a dot on a screen with his finger, which would surely require exponentially more positional accuracy than OR had in AC34 to work. You have a link to that ruling?

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1 hour ago, sclarke said:

Then again, ETNZ have never been caught cheating. Oracle was caught both spying and cheating. When you've cheated once, that label stays with you forever. As it will with Lance Armstrong. Thats just the way it is. They cheated and then had a "miracle" comeback. Gotta admit, when you say that, it does sound slightly questionable.

But the one person who would question that come back, if it was questionable, is Grant Dalton.  Especially after all the chirping he did during AC34.  Yet he has never questioned the circumstances behind OR's come back.  Not once.  Why is that?

WetHog  :ph34r: 

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