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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  

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6 hours ago, Alinghi4ever said:

If Ben was able to find some sponsors who gave money to his AC 35 Campaign Spithill, Slingsby should be too.

Fixed

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4 hours ago, Alinghi4ever said:

Going back to the actual Thread Theme here:

Dennis Conner said or he thinks there will be multiple Challengers from the USA for AC 36. He mentioned Richard DeVos/New York Yacht Club and then some possible from the Chicago & San Francisco Area. I think Conner is wrong. I can see potentially the DeVos/NY Yacht Club Challenge happening but not the other two. You need $$$$$$$ and lots of them for a credible Challenge. With Larry out from the Bay Area you almost would need to convince someone from Silicon Valley with big pockets to enter who is interested in sailing. I don't see anyone besides LE having those kinds of big pockets coming from California or more precise San Francisco.

I have brought up Jim Clark and Comanche many times in response to a number of your comments over the last week or so, but you never acknowledge them.  Why?

I think me, and other American's, will be lucky to have 1 American challenger for AC36 never mind 3.  And Jim Clark should be considered a possible leader of an American challenger as much as DeVos or anyone else rumored.  He has the money and he has a top level sailing program led by Ken Read that is chalk full of American's with America's Cup experience.  Right now Clark is the best chance to field a competitive American challenge right now.  I hope he does it but I won't hold my breath.

WetHog  :ph34r:

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1 hour ago, sclarke said:

Fixed

Better. But still a very long shot.

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6 hours ago, Alinghi4ever said:

Going back to the actual Thread Theme here:

Dennis Conner said or he thinks there will be multiple Challengers from the USA for AC 36. He mentioned Richard DeVos/New York Yacht Club and then some possible from the Chicago & San Francisco Area. I think Conner is wrong. I can see potentially the DeVos/NY Yacht Club Challenge happening but not the other two. You need $$$$$$$ and lots of them for a credible Challenge. With Larry out from the Bay Area you almost would need to convince someone from Silicon Valley with big pockets to enter who is interested in sailing. I don't see anyone besides LE having those kinds of big pockets coming from California or more precise San Francisco.

You need enough $$$ to get a challenge off the ground. More than that, you need the right people in the right places, and you need people who are compatible with each other. Oracle and BAR both had astronomical budgets, and they were both demolished by a team who focused on spending a significantly smaller budget wisely. 

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1 hour ago, Sailbydate said:

Better. But still a very long shot.

Slingsby just doesn't look to have the presence and credibility to open potential sponsors' doors like a Grant Dalton or Paul Cayard, Coutts can probably pry open some doors, but his involvement with OR-Xerox and all the associated shenanigans in AC34 and AC35 might not be helpful.

Betrand, otoh, can do it - whether or not he's motivated enough is another question altogether...

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2 hours ago, Indio said:

Slingsby just doesn't look to have the presence and credibility to open potential sponsors' doors like a Grant Dalton or Paul Cayard, Coutts can probably pry open some doors, but his involvement with OR-Xerox and all the associated shenanigans in AC34 and AC35 might not be helpful.

Betrand, otoh, can do it - whether or not he's motivated enough is another question altogether...

Agree.

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11 hours ago, Alinghi4ever said:

Going back to the actual Thread Theme here:

[snip]

This thread's dead Fred :)

BarnyB can delete it at will.

edit: But where will spinbot live? hope when it's deleted he disappears into the bit bucket as well.

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On ‎9‎/‎17‎/‎2017 at 8:40 PM, sclarke said:

You need enough $$$ to get a challenge off the ground. More than that, you need the right people in the right places, and you need people who are compatible with each other. Oracle and BAR both had astronomical budgets, and they were both demolished by a team who focused on spending a significantly smaller budget wisely. 

This is what is sooo GREAT about new Zealands win. All the American potential challengers as are being hypothesized, New York, LA, SD, Miami, Honolulu, Seattle, SF...

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On 17/09/2017 at 11:40 PM, sclarke said:

Oracle and BAR both had astronomical budgets, and they were both demolished by a team who focused on spending a significantly smaller budget wisely. 

Do you know what their budget was ? including sponsors, government, and P$B?

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34 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Do you know what their budget was ? including sponsors, government, and P$B?

No, but I do know none of the other teams were close (or as close) to shutting down, as the Kiwi's were.

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33 minutes ago, sclarke said:

No, but I do know none of the other teams were close (or as close) to shutting down, as the Kiwi's were.

Although he’s good at his job, Grumpy’s always been a drama queen. I pretty much assume everything he says is greatly imbellished. 

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55 minutes ago, sclarke said:

No, but I do know none of the other teams were close (or as close) to shutting down, as the Kiwi's were.

Well, hard to know without figures, it seems more like a popular belief and high budget has been rumoured.

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54 minutes ago, Monkey said:

Although he’s good at his job, Grumpy’s always been a drama queen. I pretty much assume everything he says is greatly imbellished. 

Agreed. He plays the diva for the public.

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35 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Well, hard to know without figures, it seems more like a popular belief and high budget has been rumoured.

I don't think either is true. 

The fact that they had a single 45 suggests that their budget was smaller than AR and OR, but I doubt it was a particularly small budget either.

Suggestions of the team folding or being unable to pay wages towards the end of the LVC however are just fanciful IMO. 

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Wasn't there a video the other day where a Kiwi definitively said NZ$70m budget (presumably excluding any non-financial help from LR and the ACEA penalty-payment)?

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1 hour ago, jaysper said:

I don't think either is true. 

The fact that they had a single 45 suggests that their budget was smaller than AR and OR, but I doubt it was a particularly small budget either.

Suggestions of the team folding or being unable to pay wages towards the end of the LVC however are just fanciful IMO. 

$ 36 M, coming from taxpayers (from a NZ paper) + sponsors + B$T = no wages paid ? Where did it go ?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff-nation/assignments/is-36m-well-spent-on-the-americas-cup/9157408/Americas-Cup-defintely-worth-price-tag

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3 hours ago, jaysper said:

I don't think either is true. 

The fact that they had a single 45 suggests that their budget was smaller than AR and OR, but I doubt it was a particularly small budget either.

Suggestions of the team folding or being unable to pay wages towards the end of the LVC however are just fanciful IMO. 

There was a story, straight after the Cup finished where the team was forced to sell gear (chase boats and other things) to pay salaries. Grant Dalton also admitted publicly that he almost could not pay salaries at the end of the LVC. Whether you believe him or not is your decision, but I think we can all definitively say, compared to other teams, the ETNZ budget was significantly smaller. And really, that's all that matters. 

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2 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

$ 36 M, coming from taxpayers (from a NZ paper) + sponsors + B$T = no wages paid ? Where did it go ?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff-nation/assignments/is-36m-well-spent-on-the-americas-cup/9157408/Americas-Cup-defintely-worth-price-tag

They DID NOT get 36mill from Government. That was previous cup cycle.

This time it was 5 mill.

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21 minutes ago, sclarke said:

There was a story, straight after the Cup finished where the team was forced to sell gear (chase boats and other things) to pay salaries. Grant Dalton also admitted publicly that he almost could not pay salaries at the end of the LVC. Whether you believe him or not is your decision, but I think we can all definitively say, compared to other teams, the ETNZ budget was significantly smaller. And really, that's all that matters. 

Yes, but do you believe the story? I sure as shit don't. 

Look at the gear they DID sell. It was mostly pretty old.

The big tender was circa 2003 and was probably not worth sending home.

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We all get that ETNZ had a smaller budget than the other big teams, but they spent the equivalent of between US$65-75m depending on how you value what Bertelli gave them in kind and that certainly isn't chump change. I doubt that GTF spent that much aso to say the ETNZ budget was significantly smaller than all the other teams is simply wrong.

If Dalton really did struggle to pay wages, it suggests a level of incompetence in financial planning and also a lack of care towards his staff as they should be his priority. I therefore suspect that as everybody got paid without drama that the story is either typical Dalton BS or didn't even happen, because I believe he can budget and he does look after his staff. 

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1 minute ago, A Class Sailor said:

We all get that ETNZ had a smaller budget than the other big teams, but they spent the equivalent of between US$65-75m depending on how you value what Bertelli gave them in kind and that certainly isn't chump change. I doubt that GTF spent that much aso to say the ETNZ budget was significantly smaller than all the other teams is simply wrong.

If Dalton really did struggle to pay wages, it suggests a level of incompetence in financial planning and also a lack of care towards his staff as they should be his priority. I therefore suspect that as everybody got paid without drama that the story is either typical Dalton BS or didn't even happen, because I believe he can budget and he does look after his staff. 

Gee, i'm sorry, what I should've said was ETNZ had a significantly smaller budget than every other team except France. But really, that showed. France was nothing more than a spoiler, and never had a hope in hell of reaching the semi's, and they didn't. Lets be honest, They were a feel good team, and thats about it. 

 

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Okay, so ETNZ $78 million NZ dollars (47 million Euro) . Artemis $120 million Euro, Ainslie about $100 million pounds (112 million Euro), and Oracle "probably a little bit below those two"

 

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2 hours ago, sclarke said:

There was a story, straight after the Cup finished where the team was forced to sell gear (chase boats and other things) to pay salaries. Grant Dalton also admitted publicly that he almost could not pay salaries at the end of the LVC. Whether you believe him or not is your decision, but I think we can all definitively say, compared to other teams, the ETNZ budget was significantly smaller. And really, that's all that matters. 

Clearly, any team budget over and above what ETNZ spent during AC35 was wasted.

Even LE's money couldn't buy OTUSA out of ideas poverty.

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3 hours ago, sclarke said:

 compared to other teams, the ETNZ budget was significantly smaller. And really, that's all that matters. 

Actually ETNZ had a mid-sized budget. Way more than Groupama, probably more than Softbank.

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9 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

Actually ETNZ had a mid-sized budget. Way more than Groupama, probably more than Softbank.

You mean Softbank/ Oracle? I'll give you the French, but they were only there to make up numbers.

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9 hours ago, Alinghi4ever said:

Are you really so naive to think Oracle spent less money trying to defend compared to BAR & Artemis who tried to win it? No way my friend. Oracle spent more money than those two that I am pretty convinced off.

AND the way AC 36 has begun to be structured (Thanks to Mr. P$B) no way in hell will 120 Million Euros be enough to put forward a credible Challenge who can win.

GD is on record as having said, "Winning the America's Cup will NEVER be cheap".

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52 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Another JS interview, radio, reasonably interesting and enjoyable

http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/on-air/mike-hosking-breakfast/audio/jimmy-spithill-it-hit-me-hard-but-ive-learnt-from-it/

"I think people like me more when I lose!"

No, JS. It's when you keep your smart gob shut.

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4 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

No, JS. It's when you keep your smart gob shut.

It was a good laugh, so it was the money quote for me.

What he said about how LE took the loss in Bermuda matches the only, brief reports we saw. Basically, "When you compete among the best you aren't going to win every time."

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2 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Another JS interview, radio, reasonably interesting and enjoyable

http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/on-air/mike-hosking-breakfast/audio/jimmy-spithill-it-hit-me-hard-but-ive-learnt-from-it/

"I think people like me more when I lose!"

Related 

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11924690

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A quote from JS

"For the sailors too, what I'm fascinated too is did Dalton and co ask the guys that were on their boat what they think? Did they get a vote, the guys who actually go out there and race?" Spithill said.

https://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-sports/97070759/jimmy-spithill-questions-team-new-zealands-plan-to-return-to-monohulls

He's got a point, based on what everyone even including Burling and Gashby have been quoted saying.

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11 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

A quote from JS

"For the sailors too, what I'm fascinated too is did Dalton and co ask the guys that were on their boat what they think? Did they get a vote, the guys who actually go out there and race?" Spithill said.

https://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-sports/97070759/jimmy-spithill-questions-team-new-zealands-plan-to-return-to-monohulls

He's got a point, based on what everyone even including Burling and Gashby have been quoted saying.

So now he's worried about the Team NZ guys getting a say in things...where was this fascination when Oracle continuously screwed them over for years? Come on Jimmy, you lost. Remember "There is no second". Dalton couldn't care less what Spithill thinks.

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2 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

A quote from JS

"For the sailors too, what I'm fascinated too is did Dalton and co ask the guys that were on their boat what they think? Did they get a vote, the guys who actually go out there and race?" Spithill said.

https://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-sports/97070759/jimmy-spithill-questions-team-new-zealands-plan-to-return-to-monohulls

He's got a point, based on what everyone even including Burling and Gashby have been quoted saying.

you do remember that PB designed, drafted, and 3D printed a large part of his controls. Is that what you mean?

Or are you still pushing this shit talk that the current defender and their COR are working together on a mutually agreeable Protocol. And that this is a problem. I'm sure you will see it as one even if the COR bothers to get a boat on the water. Remember?

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2 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

A quote from JS

"For the sailors too, what I'm fascinated too is did Dalton and co ask the guys that were on their boat what they think? Did they get a vote, the guys who actually go out there and race?" Spithill said.

https://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-sports/97070759/jimmy-spithill-questions-team-new-zealands-plan-to-return-to-monohulls

He's got a point, based on what everyone even including Burling and Gashby have been quoted saying.

Do you think the hired help aboard the J's, followed by 12 Metres were asked whether they'd like to make the switch? And similarly, followed on by the IACC's? More importantly, Did LE ask the hired help if they'd rather race multi-hulls?

JS is struggling for relevance. He's even suggested PB and BT owe their AC success to LE, for fucks sake.

 

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1 hour ago, Sailbydate said:

Do you think the hired help aboard the J's, followed by 12 Metres were asked whether they'd like to make the switch? And similarly, followed on by the IACC's? More importantly, Did LE ask the hired help if they'd rather race multi-hulls?

JS is struggling for relevance. He's even suggested PB and BT owe their AC success to LE, for fucks sake.

 

I don't think he'll be selling too many books in NZ

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4 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

A quote from JS

"For the sailors too, what I'm fascinated too is did Dalton and co ask the guys that were on their boat what they think? Did they get a vote, the guys who actually go out there and race?" Spithill said.

https://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-sports/97070759/jimmy-spithill-questions-team-new-zealands-plan-to-return-to-monohulls

He's got a point, based on what everyone even including Burling and Gashby have been quoted saying.

I think that is called socialism, where everyone has a say and everyone benefits. We don't do socialism in NZ!

Oh wait a minute. Can I come back to you in a couple of days?

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5 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

"For the sailors too, what I'm fascinated too is did Dalton and co ask the guys that were on their boat what they think? Did they get a vote, the guys who actually go out there and race?" Spithill said.

 

Delusions of grandeur. Sailors are the hired help.

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Spinpray, you wrote:

He's got a point, based on what everyone even including Burling and Gashby have been quoted saying.

Like it or not, the America's Cup is a phenomenally expensive undertaking and cash-on-hand, while not an good indicator of success, is a necessary precursor to success. The arrangement between ETNZ and Luna Rosa, which gave them cash for AC35, was premised on a monohull for AC36 should ETNZ win. Everyone at ETNZ knew that years ago. If they don't like it now, they should have left then. They cashed those checks and won that cup.

What you don't seem to comprehend is that there is no question of mono vs multi. That decision has been made. Their input now is irrelevant, uninteresting and counter-productive. No one has anything to gain by asking the question.

Spithill has no point. All we can take away from his comment is that perhaps the reason for Oracle's demise is a culture of failing to understand that certain fundamentals have a timeliness and once those decisions have been made, revisiting them endlessly is at least a waste of time and often entirely counter productive.

There's nothing to see here. This train wreck is over. AC36 will be sailed in monohulls. Move along.

 

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15 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

Delusions of grandeur. Sailors are the hired help.

Spithill identifies himself with the sailors, which goes a long way to explaining why he will never be management material as we've seen with his failure to defend when he was in charge.

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2 hours ago, Barnyb said:

I think that is called socialism, where everyone has a say and everyone benefits. We don't do socialism in NZ!

Oh wait a minute. Can I come back to you in a couple of days?

We don't do socialism? Ha, ha. If NATIONAL moved any further left, they'd be called neo-Marxist. 

Even our useless "populist" far-right party wants to increase our refugee quota. 

 

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4 hours ago, dogwatch said:

Delusions of grandeur. Sailors are the hired help.

In JS case, it's delusion of adequacy...

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10 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

A quote from JS

"For the sailors too, what I'm fascinated too is did Dalton and co ask the guys that were on their boat what they think? Did they get a vote, the guys who actually go out there and race?" Spithill said.

https://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-sports/97070759/jimmy-spithill-questions-team-new-zealands-plan-to-return-to-monohulls

He's got a point, based on what everyone even including Burling and Gashby have been quoted saying.

Short story;

Pretty much anyone involved with the foilers would like to continue with foilers. Flaps with feedback devices would remove the need for cyclors. Im sure other improvememts could be employed to make  foilers more vieerw friendly, though personally I think they are the cutting edge and thus just fine.

However too much sentiment for monos including of course the challenger's wish for a mono.

Looks as if we'll be consigning  a lot of AC45 and AC50 technology to the scrap head and an occasional museum.  

What a crying shame.

 

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5 hours ago, dogwatch said:

Delusions of grandeur. Sailors are the hired help.

Yep.

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So now he's worried about the Team NZ guys getting a say in things...where was this fascination when Oracle continuously screwed them over for years? Come on Jimmy, you lost. Remember "There is no second". Dalton couldn't care less what Spithill thinks.

 

 just ignore it......Spinray aka Rocky, quoting anti-kiwi bs from wherever he can find it...

No cup, no team, so sad....

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1 hour ago, Alinghi4ever said:

Spithill & Stingray have a Point though: Going to multis for AC 34 was a complete Team Decision by Oracle Team USA. Sailors & Designers were involved and not just the OTUSA Management.

For Grant Dalton it's always: # 1 The Cup comes first and # 2 The Sailors second.

I don't think that's smart tbh. The Sailors have to sail this thing in the end after all not the Designers or the Cup Management.

Smart is not letting the inmates run the asylum. A good sailor can sail anything. Ashby is getting on now, so may choose to take up a coaching/ performance role, or he may become an integral part of the design process in designing an apparent wind sailed fast monohull. Or he may just diversify into a mono sailor, who knows. Burling and Tuke have proved they can sail pretty much anything well, so they won't be too worried. 

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20 hours ago, sclarke said:

So now he's worried about the Team NZ guys getting a say in things...where was this fascination when Oracle continuously screwed them over for years? Come on Jimmy, you lost. Remember "There is no second". Dalton couldn't care less what Spithill thinks.

Yes, the winner gets to choose, just as JS says. But he does make a decent argument that if it were up to the past-cycle AC sailors instead of up to the marketers, promoters, and maybe especially one Mr Prada $Billionaire's preference for 'a return to Tradition' (whatever the f that means...) well then: The choice would have been to take the speed-thrill technology forwards instead of backwards. Which is what every single AC35 sailor has also said, it's not just JS!

But like SailByDate and others say, might as well take it on the chin regardless. The deal got made, may as well just accept that on Sep 29 we will get to read this Prada Protocol.

 

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4 hours ago, sclarke said:

Smart is not letting the inmates run the asylum. A good sailor can sail anything. Ashby is getting on now, so may choose to take up a coaching/ performance role, or he may become an integral part of the design process in designing an apparent wind sailed fast monohull. Or he may just diversify into a mono sailor, who knows. Burling and Tuke have proved they can sail pretty much anything well, so they won't be too worried. 

Burlington and Tuke have shown that they are good in apparent wind boats but have not shown they have mastered slower displacement monos yet.  I suspect they have been brought on to the VOR teams specifically the in port races on cats.  I don't expect them to do many of the longer legs

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More from JS.

Team New Zealand's switch to monohulls is a step back for the America's Cup – Jimmy Spithill

https://www.google.com/amp/www.newshub.co.nz/home/sport/2017/09/team-new-zealand-s-switch-to-monohull-s-is-a-step-back-for-the-america-s-cup-jimmy-spithill.amp.html

me: the headline (as usual in Kiwi media) was not JS's main point but we may as well get used to this too - heavy doses of it! Lol

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So you took exactly the same point from JS and that was worth promoting a page back, but now that it's come around a little slower in the daily press cycle - it's 'typical lowly Kiwi journalism'?

Puulleeze....go find something to do!

Take JS with you - you could have many a happy hour together trying to out-snide each other

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1 hour ago, ~Stingray~ said:

More from JS.

Team New Zealand's switch to monohulls is a step back for the America's Cup – Jimmy Spithill

https://www.google.com/amp/www.newshub.co.nz/home/sport/2017/09/team-new-zealand-s-switch-to-monohull-s-is-a-step-back-for-the-america-s-cup-jimmy-spithill.amp.html

me: the headline (as usual in Kiwi media) was not JS's main point but we may as well get used to this too - heavy doses of it! Lol

I wish JS well in his endeavours to sail foiling cats in the future, whilst leaving the AC to sailors that are keen to do as their paymasters say! 

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1 hour ago, nav said:

.. the daily press cycle - it's 'typical lowly Kiwi journalism'?

Are you really that blind?

Kiwi journalism is worse than most tabloid papers in the USA - which is saying a lot.

Between that sensationalist journalism, and the Cup smasher, and the Blackheart campaign, and the 'Lone Wolf' attack mode propensity GD has towards the rest of the world, well it's a pretty effing reasonable guess that this coming AC will devolve in short order. 

Entertaining in some morbid sense? Almost certainly!

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Just now, Alinghi4ever said:

Don't forget that ETNZ has their private propaganda Spokesperson: Richard "Goebbels" Gladwell. That guy should be called out and be taken into custody.

It's natural for RG to be a home boy and I'm sure he like others are thrilled that ETNZ won AC35. All good, and he has a 'Lone Wolf' book to sell starting soon about the AC35 campaign that has a cheezy cover but that I will buy anyway to support him even if I don't read much of it, which is fine too.

But he was very honestly 'STUNNED' for many good reasons he spoke about, that GD sold out to P$B, to go back to monohulls. 

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^ It's an Us Versus The World culture among some down there, that strikes me as a bit aggressive-ugly but is apparently a motivating factor for whatever reason. 

No Seattle campaign would feel that dirty, as the (JS helmed) OneWorld campaign proved. OneWorld was intentionally a Class Act that got muddied only by a controversial Kiwi, with accusation shots taken also by other Kiwis.

Rough situation down there, the makeup of the Arbitration Panel could be instrumental by the end of this cycle, with the aggressive 'ETNZ against all Enemies' legalistic attitude history we've seen.

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Holy shit you two are embarrassing.  The protocol hasn't even been published yet, but the constant attack mode is already becoming very tiring.  You each support two of the worst defenders in Cup history who both tried to manipulate the rules in their favor, so I'm not really sure where you find this moral highground that you seem so intent on staking out.  As Dogwatch said the other day, let's wait until the protocol is released so that we can all complain based on facts rather than manufactured conspiracy theories.

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9 minutes ago, ezyb said:

Holy shit you two are embarrassing.  The protocol hasn't even been published yet, but the constant attack mode is already becoming very tiring.  You each support two of the worst defenders in Cup history who both tried to manipulate the rules in their favor, so I'm not really sure where you find this moral highground that you seem so intent on staking out.  As Dogwatch said the other day, let's wait until the protocol is released so that we can all complain based on facts rather than manufactured conspiracy theories.

Spinbot has run out of food stamps so he's suffering withdrawal symptons...

 

1 hour ago, ~Stingray~ said:

^ It's an Us Versus The World culture among some down there, that strikes me as a bit aggressive-ugly but is apparently a motivating factor for whatever reason. 

No Seattle campaign would feel that dirty, as the (JS helmed) OneWorld campaign proved. OneWorld was intentionally a Class Act that got muddied only by a controversial Kiwi, with accusation shots taken also by other Kiwis.

Rough situation down there, the makeup of the Arbitration Panel could be instrumental by the end of this cycle, with the aggressive 'ETNZ against all Enemies' legalistic attitude history we've seen.

Why don't you go down to your usual street corner and hock off some more meth...

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6 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Yes, the winner gets to choose, just as JS says. But he does make a decent argument that if it were up to the past-cycle AC sailors instead of up to the marketers, promoters, and maybe especially one Mr Prada $Billionaire's preference for 'a return to Tradition' (whatever the f that means...) well then: The choice would have been to take the speed-thrill technology forwards instead of backwards. Which is what every single AC35 sailor has also said, it's not just JS!

But like SailByDate and others say, might as well take it on the chin regardless. The deal got made, may as well just accept that on Sep 29 we will get to read this Prada Protocol.

 

If it was up to the past cycle sailors, AC33 would never have happened and Oracle would never have won the Americas Cup. The simple reason Oracle won the Americas Cup from Alinghi was because Larry knew he could out spend Ernesto in every aspect of a Cup campaign. James Spithill was second in a contest where there is no second. And it wasn't even like he got close to Team NZ. They wiped the floor with him. Why does he think his opinion matters? He got destroyed in the last cup, by 2 of the challengers. He couldn't even pick up a win against Artemis, and they didn't even make the match!

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7 hours ago, trt131 said:

Burlington and Tuke have shown that they are good in apparent wind boats but have not shown they have mastered slower displacement monos yet.  I suspect they have been brought on to the VOR teams specifically the in port races on cats.  I don't expect them to do many of the longer legs

...<_<

Because sailing tens of thousands of km in a foiling monohull would be a terrible way to get used to sailing in foiling monohulls

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2 minutes ago, hoom said:

...<_<

Because sailing tens of thousands of km in a foiling monohull would be a terrible way to get used to sailing in foiling monohulls

Damned auto correct.  Burling and Tuke will not be brought on to the longer legs as a training exercise.  The crew numbers are very limited and if they can't do multiple tasks onboard there will be no place for them.

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5 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

It's natural for RG to be a home boy and I'm sure he like others are thrilled that ETNZ won AC35. All good, and he has a 'Lone Wolf' book to sell starting soon about the AC35 campaign that has a cheezy cover but that I will buy anyway to support him even if I don't read much of it, which is fine too.

But he was very honestly 'STUNNED' for many good reasons he spoke about, that GD sold out to P$B, to go back to monohulls. 

You need to give it a rest Stinger. It's coming across as sour grapes regardless of the intent. 

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13 hours ago, ezyb said:

Holy shit you two are embarrassing.  The protocol hasn't even been published yet, but the constant attack mode is already becoming very tiring.  You each support two of the worst defenders in Cup history who both tried to manipulate the rules in their favor, so I'm not really sure where you find this moral highground that you seem so intent on staking out.  As Dogwatch said the other day, let's wait until the protocol is released so that we can all complain based on facts rather than manufactured conspiracy theories.

Yes folks, it's the (drum roll please) Very Bitter and Twisted - both our teams got hammered by the courts: Tweedle Dee - we didn't even compete + Tweedle Dumb - we got thrashed despite all the money and the spin Show....

:(

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10 minutes ago, Alinghi4ever said:

LOL, there isn't anything tiring. RG deserves to be attacked for the crap & BS he brought up prior to the Start of racing in Bermuda. That guy should be expelled in my judgement.

If you had any judgement you wouldn't be posting utter bollocks 25 times a day...

What would you 'expell' RG from? If you dislike him so much stop fucking reading him...

 If expulsion was so easy you would be long gone from here...

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14 hours ago, sclarke said:

If it was up to the past cycle sailors, AC33 would never have happened and Oracle would never have won the Americas Cup. The simple reason Oracle won the Americas Cup from Alinghi was because Larry knew he could out spend Ernesto in every aspect of a Cup campaign. James Spithill was second in a contest where there is no second. And it wasn't even like he got close to Team NZ. They wiped the floor with him. Why does he think his opinion matters? He got destroyed in the last cup, by 2 of the challengers. He couldn't even pick up a win against Artemis, and they didn't even make the match!

JS sat at that podium during AC34 and kept saying his team had a chance down 8 to whatever and then he led them back for arguably the biggest comeback in professional sports.  Like it or not that is why his opinion matters.  He did what few, including everyone on this site, have done before.  Nothing that happened in AC35, or said on this site after AC35, will change that no matter how hard you Kiwi's try.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

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Well nothing except finding out that there was some non-compliant aspect to OB2!!

 

And of course ETNZ's just as unlikely survival and ultimate triumph in AC35 :D

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2 minutes ago, nav said:

Well nothing except finding out that there was some non-compliant aspect to OB2!!

 

And of course ETNZ's just as unlikely survival and ultimate triumph in AC35 :D

Keep on trying.  One day you might succeed but I doubt it.  :lol:

WetHog  :ph34r:

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1 hour ago, WetHog said:

JS sat at that podium during AC34 and kept saying his team had a chance down 8 to whatever and then he led them back for arguably the biggest comeback in professional sports.  Like it or not that is why his opinion matters.  He did what few, including everyone on this site, have done before.  Nothing that happened in AC35, or said on this site after AC35, will change that no matter how hard you Kiwi's try.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

Keep up, Hoggie. That's history, mate.

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1 hour ago, WetHog said:

JS sat at that podium during AC34 and kept saying his team had a chance down 8 to whatever and then he led them back for arguably the biggest comeback in professional sports.  Like it or not that is why his opinion matters.  He did what few, including everyone on this site, have done before.  Nothing that happened in AC35, or said on this site after AC35, will change that no matter how hard you Kiwi's try.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

Did he really lead them back? Or was it the guys in the shed doing the work behind the scenes. Sure Spithill took the credit for it, just like he distanced himself when his "team" got caught cheating in the ACWS. But I can't help but think he became the poster boy for everyone elses work. I mean, if you look at both Cups, in 2013 the story goes, Jimmy's "tenacity and leadership quality" led Oracle back from the brink to win. So what happened this time? they were on the brink again, and what, Jimmy couldn't be bothered inspiring his boys this time? His leadership quality wasn't up to scratch? because they got demolished! No, the designers and boat builders in the back were the reason Oracle won AC34, because they had freedom to make desired modifications. Where this time the designers and boat builders had less room to move due to the tight class rule, so they weren't able to make desired changes. Burling and Ashby were the first to credit Sean Regan with being one of the key people who made the win possible. Thats the difference. Spithill became a "legend" but was it really deserved? He's never won a challenger series, he's never been competitive in equal boats. He never even won any of the regattas in the ACWS! if anyone is over rated, its Jimmy.

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You're arguing that the overall team is more important than any individual (as JS points out too) but then you blame JS individually for ETNZ's AC35 win?  Lol!

But I'm surprised that JS, in the various interviews this week, hasn't brought up the possibility that going back to slower monohulls might not actually be an advantage to 'older' hands like himself, BA, DB, etc. Instead, he longs to get back to the high-octane adrenaline of extreme-speed foiling multihulls and openly scoffs at the questioning he took about being too old for that - referring probably to Clean's 'Like Me' accusation in part during the last AC press conference.

RC (age 53?) did make that argument about the effect of going back to monohulls, he said 'even guys like me' could participate. (And then RG titled an article 'Coutts Threatens to Return' - a headline way out of left field even for him!)

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Just now, ~Stingray~ said:

You're arguing that the overall team is more important than any individual (as JS points out too) but then you blame JS for ETNZ's AC35 win? 

Lol!

I don't blame Jimmy for the Kiwi win. ETNZ exposed him for what he actually is...mediocre. I'm saying he got the credit for AC34 undeservedly. If he got the credit for the AC win, he should have got the blame for the cheating scandal as well. 

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13 minutes ago, sclarke said:

I don't blame Jimmy for the Kiwi win. ETNZ exposed him for what he actually is...mediocre. I'm saying he got the credit for AC34 undeservedly. If he got the credit for the AC win, he should have got the blame for the cheating scandal as well. 

It isn't an either/or question, team or individual, he was one of many key parts of the team.

Re the AC45 weights f'up by the traveling shore guys in Newport: JS was so surprised that he thought the boat might have been tampered with by another team; and then later when it was found out who the party most guilty was, he basically delivered a F Off to De Ridder. Which was the exact right reaction. 

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Just now, ~Stingray~ said:

It isn't an either/or question, team or individual, he was one of many key parts of the team.

Re the AC45 weights f'up by the traveling shore guys in Newport: JS was so surprised that he thought the boat might have been tampered with by another team; and then later when it was found out who the party mossy involved was, he basically delivered a F Off to De Ridder. Which was the exact right reaction. 

"JS was so surprised" So was Lance Armstrong. Spithill delivered an F-off to Dirk De Ridder, yet let another key party stay. Simeon Tienpont got off scott free and was allowed to race the match even though he was instrumental in those alterations. What he should've done was delivered himself an F-off. That would have been the exact right reaction.

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3 minutes ago, sclarke said:

"JS was so surprised" So was Lance Armstrong. Spithill delivered an F-off to Dirk De Ridder, yet let another key party stay. Simeon Tienpont got off scott free and was allowed to race the match even though he was instrumental in those alterations. What he should've done was delivered himself an F-off. That would have been the exact right reaction.

OR basically submitted the investigation to the IJ and so the eventual punishment decisions came down from there. Not from JS, no matter his feelings about it.

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39 minutes ago, sclarke said:

I don't blame Jimmy for the Kiwi win. ETNZ exposed him for what he actually is...mediocre. I'm saying he got the credit for AC34 undeservedly. If he got the credit for the AC win, he should have got the blame for the cheating scandal as well. 

This is so f#*king tiresome. The ETNZ win was because they had the better boat. Give that boat to OR and the OR boat to ETNZ, give them a month to practice and OR would have won the cup as easily as ETNZ did. If you don't understand that, you do not understand yacht racing.

As for AC34, JS was one of the key people who kept OR in the game. His attitude didn't allow them to give up and his direct leadership motivated the whole team to find ways of making the boat better and improve how they sailed it. I know the NZ fanboys hate it, but JS is one of the biggest reasons why OR managed the comeback and if ETNZ had somebody with half as much drive and belief of JS, they would have found a way to get the extra point they needed.

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19 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

This is so f#*king tiresome. The ETNZ win was because they had the better boat. Give that boat to OR and the OR boat to ETNZ, give them a month to practice and OR would have won the cup as easily as ETNZ did. If you don't understand that, you do not understand yacht racing.

As for AC34, JS was one of the key people who kept OR in the game. His attitude didn't allow them to give up and his direct leadership motivated the whole team to find ways of making the boat better and improve how they sailed it. I know the NZ fanboys hate it, but JS is one of the biggest reasons why OR managed the comeback and if ETNZ had somebody with half as much drive and belief of JS, they would have found a way to get the extra point they needed.

ETNZ won because they had better everything. It was the OR leadership (including Spithill) that failed. And that buck stops at Spithill. He was the first to come out and say "to be honest we've looked at the bikes like everybody else decided it wasn't going to pay off". OR could have had the better boat if it wasn't for the decisions from their leadership and from Spithill. If Spithill was one of the biggest reasons why OR managed the comeback, it would've happened again this time, but it didn't. Truth is, the guy is average at best. Which is why he only competes in the AC, because he can't even get close to the podium in anything else. He was owned by both Burling and Outteridge. Both AC newbies.

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JS makes the same point that ETNZ's designer Verdier does: The boats were most optimized for slightly different windspeed conditions.

When asked in one of the recent interviews about why he didn't have the same conviction about a comeback in Bermuda, after that first and only race won, on the best-wind day of the Finals, he responded by saying he'd already seen the forecast for the next two days. The forecast was for more of the light.

Would the Finals have been closer in 12-15? Probably, since it's very unlikely to have been that one-sided. 

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41 minutes ago, sclarke said:

ETNZ won because they had better everything. It was the OR leadership (including Spithill) that failed. And that buck stops at Spithill. He was the first to come out and say "to be honest we've looked at the bikes like everybody else decided it wasn't going to pay off". OR could have had the better boat if it wasn't for the decisions from their leadership and from Spithill. If Spithill was one of the biggest reasons why OR managed the comeback, it would've happened again this time, but it didn't. Truth is, the guy is average at best. Which is why he only competes in the AC, because he can't even get close to the podium in anything else. He was owned by both Burling and Outteridge. Both AC newbies.

Clarky, you are so one eyed for NZ and also, like most Kiwis, anti Aus that anything JS does is bad.  As for not doing well in anything else, I suppose at least two world championships don't count then.

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1 hour ago, trt131 said:

Clarky, you are so one eyed for NZ and also, like most Kiwis, anti Aus that anything JS does is bad.  As for not doing well in anything else, I suppose at least two world championships don't count then.

I'm not anti-Aus. Far from it. Infact I think an Aussie challenge is a great thing for the event and the sport. Certainly better than an American team made up of Aussies. I'll give it to James. Two world championships is a great achievement. But they pale in comparison to almost every other skipper/ helmsman, and even most other sailors in general achievements in the Americas Cup today, most of which have multiple world championships in multiple classes as well as multiple Olympic medals. These guys are the true legends of the sport. Its unfortunate that some Aussie with a big mouth who can talk smack about other teams and other sailors who are clearly better than him is considered a legend. Difference between Connor and James is Connor could, and did, back up his words, and he meant every word and every insult he ever said, where Spithill admits its a character he plays in front of the cameras for shits and giggles. Pretty disrespectful when you consider the guys he is surrounded by and those who came before him.

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He doesn't play it for shits and giggles, he plays for a purpose and that was obvious that it worked against DB.  This time around it was to get at the stupid NZ media that was sent to Bermuda.  Even you have commented how dumb they were and did not know anything about the game.  They took it all hook line and sinker.

 

JS has concentrated on AC for some years whilst other have gone and done Olympics, just different pathways.  He has also done a fair bit of big boat sailing in past years which is something your heros have just started to do, so maybe he is in a better position than the apparent wind sailors going into the next cycle (no pun intended).

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JS was the driving force behind possibly the greatest comeback in sports history. It's sad that - even after winning the cup with a faster boat that didn't even need sailors on it - a bunch of Kiwis are still disingenously pointing fingers and lying about AC34. 

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3 hours ago, trt131 said:

He doesn't play it for shits and giggles, he plays for a purpose and that was obvious that it worked against DB.  This time around it was to get at the stupid NZ media that was sent to Bermuda.  Even you have commented how dumb they were and did not know anything about the game.  They took it all hook line and sinker.

 

JS has concentrated on AC for some years whilst other have gone and done Olympics, just different pathways.  He has also done a fair bit of big boat sailing in past years which is something your heros have just started to do, so maybe he is in a better position than the apparent wind sailors going into the next cycle (no pun intended).

So he does do it for shits and giggles, because really, the NZ media plays no role in the outcome of the AC. So he must do it because he enjoys getting a rise out of the Kiwi media (shits and giggles) because he knows NZ and its media are some of the most knowledgeable and passionate of all people. 

Are you kidding? NZ has been big boat sailing since at least the 80's! Whitbread, Sydney Hobart and Volvo Ocean Races included. Blake and Dalton are two of the most famous big boat/ Ocean racers in the world! Ashby, Burling and Tuke are 3 of the worlds best Apparent wind sailors in the world today. 

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2 hours ago, surfsailor said:

 even after winning the cup with a faster boat that didn't even need sailors on it

That's some disingenuous shit right there.

You defend Orifice despite setting a class rule that didn't require sailors and then kick etnz for winning under those rules.

 

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1 hour ago, sclarke said:

So he does do it for shits and giggles, because really, the NZ media plays no role in the outcome of the AC. So he must do it because he enjoys getting a rise out of the Kiwi media (shits and giggles) because he knows NZ and its media are some of the most knowledgeable and passionate of all people. 

Are you kidding? NZ has been big boat sailing since at least the 80's! Whitbread, Sydney Hobart and Volvo Ocean Races included. Blake and Dalton are two of the most famous big boat/ Ocean racers in the world! Ashby, Burling and Tuke are 3 of the worlds best Apparent wind sailors in the world today. 

Take your rose coloured glasses off.  You know I was talking about Burling and Tuke.  Also you cannot believe NZ had some of the most knowledgeable and passionate of all media people at Bermuda.  Some of the shit that came out them was diabolical, all sorts of conspiracy theories, and you were lapping it up.

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