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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  

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13 hours ago, A Class Sailor said:

If I was a billionaire where would I spend the money?

That's easy. They are spending on the J-class.

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2 hours ago, sclarke said:

So there's no Pete and Blair, because there's NO WAY Dalts will let them sail in anything Oracle are doing from now on. Spithill and Slingsby will be putting all their focus into an AC campaign, you can bet No one from Luna Rossa will be involved. So who's left? Dean Barker? Frank Cammas? What do they do with the boats? Adapt them all to incorporate Cyclors and X-box controllers and try and convince people they came up with the idea? Sounds very unconvincing

 

They have claimed the foiling development - so why not grab these too :lol:

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7 hours ago, sclarke said:

So there's no Pete and Blair, because there's NO WAY Dalts will let them sail in anything Oracle are doing from now on. Spithill and Slingsby will be putting all their focus into an AC campaign, you can bet No one from Luna Rossa will be involved. So who's left? Dean Barker? Frank Cammas? What do they do with the boats? Adapt them all to incorporate Cyclors and X-box controllers and try and convince people they came up with the idea? Sounds very unconvincing

DB is spoken for already ...

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15 hours ago, barfy said:

spitty(a little old), Barker (hanger on to any hope), Cammas (not sure if he will stoop to this as an all around good frenchman. but never underestimate the power of a paycheck.) Nate(would hope he throws in with slinger and forms a proper chall)

too much infrastructure for portable bases, no evenly based class rule. Will it be a dev class? will they freeze dev? What about ongoing MC interpretations (shroud tensions and such)

Too hard basket

 

Nah, they will declare a one design rule and then continue to develop their AC50 through the clever placement of lead weights etc.

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17 minutes ago, jaysper said:

Nah, they will declare a one design rule and then continue to develop their AC50 through the clever placement of lead weights etc.

A second wing, unrestricted foils, flaps allowed, and no auto-pilot onboard supercomputers or bicycles allowed, could be a pretty great NextGen start. We could see them break 50 knots next time.

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5 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

A second wing, unrestricted foils, flaps allowed, and no auto-pilot onboard supercomputers or bicycles allowed, could be a pretty great NextGen start. We could see them break 50 knots next time.

Nobody is going sink significant develop money into these Stinger.

If Lazza wants to do this, he would be much better off resurrecting the foiling 45s as OD.

They are more affordable, maintainable and there is a good supply of them already available at a cut price.

In 10 years the only AC50 that will still be in a fit condition that it could actually sail will be ETNZ's boat and that will only be in such pristine condition because it will be in a museum.

Look for the rest of them to be abandoned like so many of the old IACCs.

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7 minutes ago, jaysper said:

Nobody is going sink significant develop money into these Stinger.

If Lazza wants to do this, he would be much better off resurrecting the foiling 45s as OD.

They are more affordable, maintainable and there is a good supply of them already available at a cut price.

In 10 years the only AC50 that will still be in a fit condition that it could actually sail will be ETNZ's boat and that will only be in such pristine condition because it will be in a museum.

Look for the rest of them to be abandoned like so many of the old IACCs.

Agree with much of that - but except for especially the part in bold. 

Hard as it is for us to imagine, inside $B's heads they apparently can and do think a whole lot differently about what would be fun, desirable and possible to do as a fling.

Since LE and others have already expressed their long-term sailing desires as being around racing the fastest course-racing boats in history then unless there's a better alternative to it there is nothing at all to distract them from just continuing up along that trajectory. Whatever GD and P$B choose to do instead simply wouldn't matter. Shrug.

 

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So Larry is basically going to bankroll every single team as well as the event? Why not put all that money into getting the Americas Cup back so his series can actually mean something? Guess he feels little old New Zealand is just too strong for him to compete against.

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3 minutes ago, sclarke said:

So Larry is basically going to bankroll every single team as well as the event? Why not put all that money into getting the Americas Cup back so his series can actually mean something? Guess he feels little old New Zealand is just too strong for him to compete against.

He'd have to pay the poodles to play with the cheaters. This rumour is looking more and more like a Rob Mundle Spithill-inspired wind-up. There's a certain dead-rubber Bledisloe Test coming up in Brisbane on Saturday, and the Aussie media have no sensationalist "revelations" to try to distract the All Blacks from business-as-usual at 10pm Saturday.

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16 minutes ago, sclarke said:

So Larry is basically going to bankroll every single team as well as the event? Why not put all that money into getting the Americas Cup back so his series can actually mean something? Guess he feels little old New Zealand is just too strong for him to compete against.

If LE rates pressing sailing technology and speed higher than going to NZ to screw around down there in a slower boat then guess what? That's exactly what he will do.

It's not like all that many $B's have cared all that much about the Cup in the past 3 decades, they mostly avoid it and do what they prefer to do instead. 

 

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15 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Agree with much of that - but except for especially the part in bold. 

Hard as it is for us to imagine, inside $B's heads they apparently can and do think a whole lot differently about what would be fun, desirable and possible to do as a fling.

Since LE and others have already expressed their long-term sailing desires as being around racing the fastest course-racing boats in history then unless there's a better alternative to it there is nothing at all to distract them from just continuing up along that trajectory. Whatever GD and P$B choose to do instead simply wouldn't matter. Shrug.

 

The best possible outcome for this if Lazza tries to resurrect the AC50s will be that he managed to cobble together some small circuit (only 5 of these are available after all) for a year or two until the stresses on the components lead to the boats being too dangerous to sail, at which stage it will all go tits up.

I will make a mental note of this and come back with a told ya so in a year or two. Or more likely my feeble memory will fail me and you will never hear about it.

Either way, I have zero doubt I will be proven correct.

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2 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

If LE rates pressing sailing technology and speed higher than going to NZ to screw around down there then guess what? That's exactly what he will do.

 

Puhleeze!! With Larry's hi-tech company behind them they couldn't "press sailing technology" in Bermuda and were humiliated by a low-budget team they tried their darndest to  block and disadvantage at every stage since AC2014*. Where would they suddenly be able to get all that new tech without ETNZ for them to Xerox?!?! that tonque is getting very unhealthy brown

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9 minutes ago, jaysper said:

The best possible outcome for this if Lazza tries to resurrect the AC50s will be that he managed to cobble together some small circuit (only 5 of these are available after all) for a year or two until the stresses on the components lead to the boats being too dangerous to sail, at which stage it will all go tits up.

Sure, that's a possibility but:

Everyone deep into the AC50's, ETNZ guys like Ashby and Burling included, have all expressed the opinion that with further development there's a lot of upside ahead. 

If costs are no boundary then where is there any performance boundary?

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20 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Sure, that's a possibility but:

Everyone deep into the AC50's, ETNZ guys like Ashby and Burling included, have all expressed the opinion that with further development there's a lot of upside ahead. 

If costs are no boundary then where is there any performance boundary?

In all seriousness, who is going to compete in this series? I mean, the boats they are using, aren't even winning boats. The technology is clearly not as advanced as the Kiwi's technology, and the sailors are all runners-up in a competition where there is no second place. Without cyclors, X-box controllers, Pete Burling, Blair Tuke, and Glenn Ashby, that series will not be worth competing in.

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1 minute ago, sclarke said:

In all seriousness, who is going to compete in this series? I mean, the boats they are using, aren't even winning boats. The technology is clearly not as advanced as the Kiwi's technology, and the sailors are all runners-up in a competition where there is no second place. Without cyclors, X-box controllers, Pete Burling, Blair Tuke, and Glenn Ashby, that series will not be worth competing in.

No need to fret mate: it gives the losers' supporters something to get excited over - lord knows they haven't had anything to cheer since February when ETNZ launched the NZ StarShip "Aotearoa".

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8 minutes ago, sclarke said:

In all seriousness, who is going to compete in this series? I mean, the boats they are using, aren't even winning boats. The technology is clearly not as advanced as the Kiwi's technology, and the sailors are all runners-up in a competition where there is no second place. Without cyclors, X-box controllers, Pete Burling, Blair Tuke, and Glenn Ashby, that series will not be worth competing in.

Maybe they leapfrog the ETNZ performance? As I posted, many people think it is possible next time around. EB said the exact same, he could well be very interested in this.

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15 minutes ago, sclarke said:

 Without cyclors, X-box controllers, Pete Burling, Blair Tuke, and Glenn Ashby, that series will not be worth competing in.

How narrow minded...

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11 minutes ago, sclarke said:

No, its realistic. 

I get what you are saying. But I disagree. There are many perspectives on everything, and on sailboat racing, there are people who find it worth competing in everything from Sailfish to Superyachts., across ponds and around the world. I gather Larry really likes sailing on the RC44s. And I gather he likes having owning teams that compete in competitive events. And he has the cash. He has spent only a few percent of his worth on Sailing, and has other hobbies. He is getting on in years and won't live forever. If he wants to put this together, I am guessing various people will participate and maybe a few will watch. I guess it won't be profitable, but I don't think that is the point.

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8 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

How narrow minded...

so please do elucidate upon what you think the class should be that the loser boats should use...please debate with stingers as well as i see he has some ideas to resurrect his dead team.

and take it out of of AC Anarchy please

Cheers!

and later

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During Phil Taylors 14 year domination of the sport which was the more popular?

The World Darts Federation World Cup of Darts, the BDO World Darts Championship or the PDC World Darts Championship?

 

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Found in today's (Dutch) news paper.
Larry is still getting wealthier; 9.7 percent more money then last year according to Forbes.
Marc Zuckerberg (Facebook founder /owner) however is now fourth on the list.
Capital increase of 15 percent in one year.
Bill Gates is still leading.
Mr. Trump falls back from position 156 to place 248.
Only 3000 million as capital. Guess president of the US of A isn't the best paid job in the world. 

IMG_4767.thumb.jpg.9f552f17e2472df275494bea45897bfc.jpg

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5 hours ago, barfy said:

so please do elucidate upon what you think the class should be that the loser boats should use...please debate with stingers as well as i see he has some ideas to resurrect his dead team.

and take it out of of AC Anarchy please

Cheers!

and later

The AC50 was a flawed boat because it needed to much human oil pressure, I agree with GD.

New rules allowing new foils, flaps, wings, would make it easy to sail, safer, faster and competing very well against an AC on slow monos. It would not even compare.

Anyway, it should held GD push for the more extreme of their 2 concepts. Seriously, are you interested to go back to keeled boats ?

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8 hours ago, rgeek said:

During Phil Taylors 14 year domination of the sport which was the more popular?

The World Darts Federation World Cup of Darts, the BDO World Darts Championship or the PDC World Darts Championship?

 

Probably all three enjoyed a bigger TV audience than the AC too. ;)

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3 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

The AC50 was a flawed boat because it needed to much human oil pressure, I agree with GD.

New rules allowing new foils, flaps, wings, would make it easy to sail, safer, faster and competing very well against an AC on slow monos. It would not even compare.

Anyway, it should held GD push for the more extreme of their 2 concepts. Seriously, are you interested to go back to keeled boats ?

It's unclear how you could make these boats any quicker *and* less oil hungry - and the only options for oil make more of mockery of grinding than before - engines for some/all hydro, or larger accumulators and more pre-charging making in-race grinding really just being a bit of a show?

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11 minutes ago, rh2600 said:

It's unclear how you could make these boats any quicker *and* less oil hungry - and the only options for oil make more of mockery of grinding than before - engines for some/all hydro, or larger accumulators and more pre-charging making in-race grinding really just being a bit of a show?

Lots of the energy is required for moving the whole foil and the rudder, a bit like if a plane had to move the whole wing and the whole tail. Tabs or flaps on both would make it less hydro hungry, more controlable, thus faster.

I think they should also use a wing and a reefable soft sails like the GC32, it would not be faster but would make the boat more more seaworthy, and able to sail in stronger winds.Obviously they should have to possibility to have a second smaller jib.

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2 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Lots of the energy is required for moving the whole foil and the rudder, a bit like if a plane had to move the whole wing and the whole tail. Tabs or flaps on both would make it less hydro hungry, more controlable, thus faster.

I think they should also use a wing and a reefable soft sails like the GC32, it would not be faster but would make the boat more more seaworthy, and able to sail in stronger winds.Obviously they should have to possibility to have a second smaller jib.

Wait, so you want teams to invest in wings, and soft sail rigs? And here we were thinking they wanted to reduce costs!

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3 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

Probably all three enjoyed a bigger TV audience than the AC too. ;)

Only the BDO WDC was consistently free to air as far as I remember

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15 minutes ago, sclarke said:

Wait, so you want teams to invest in wings, and soft sail rigs? And here we were thinking they wanted to reduce costs!

Soft sails cost a fraction of a wing, are safer, cost less to repair, allow a smaller support team, does not require a crane to put the boat in the water, would probably allow to sail the boat above 30 kts of TWS.

And you know what ? the boat and maintenance would be a fraction of the AC75, would ship easily and would probably be twice faster that the AC75 !!!  With different sets of supercavitating foils it could perhaps reach 60 kts.

Let's wait what they prepare anyway, I will be the first to congrat if they come with a good boat and the first to boo if they don't.

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3 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Lots of the energy is required for moving the whole foil and the rudder, a bit like if a plane had to move the whole wing and the whole tail. Tabs or flaps on both would make it less hydro hungry, more controlable, thus faster.

I think they should also use a wing and a reefable soft sails like the GC32, it would not be faster but would make the boat more more seaworthy, and able to sail in stronger winds.Obviously they should have to possibility to have a second smaller jib.

But then they are just becoming larger, expensive and fragile GC32s? Wouldn't it be easier to just bring tabs/flaps to the 32s?

I guess I still contend that its natural the GC32s will continue to evolve with ongoing upgrades as a sustainable platform, whilst it makes less sense for AC50s to try and modify themselves to be easier to sail...

There are lots of LE dependent suppliers that would want the AC50 to continue too - including boat builders who made the hulls etc, but this isn't the same as there being a genuine demand...

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Hard to imagine GC32’s breaking 50 knots. First-Gen AC50’s already hit almost 47.3, Artemis Racing vs SBTJ.

http://www.alinghi.com/news/alinghi-break-gc32-speed-record

Alinghi have broken the GC32 speed record! Last week, in a training session on Lake Geneva, the team clocked 39.21 knots, well over a whole knot faster than the previous record that was set on Lake Garda in July 2014. Perhaps even more impressive, the top speed is a full five knots faster than the team’s previous personal best of 34.2 knots, set only earlier this year. With such a rapid trajectory, the elusive 40 knot barrier is in sight. Onwards and, indeed, upwards!

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I don't believe there's any practical way to sail at 60 knots with out either

  1. IMUs and high performance flight control systems; or
  2. Killing people

Either way, grinding makes absolutely no sense - it's batteries and DC pumps.

Anyone who thinks an AC50 can be revitalized and sailed competitively without US$50M per year simply doesn't understand. Roughly speaking, those boats require a 10 person on-the-water team, 10 person shore team, 10 person sailing team, 10 person technical team, a 10 person boat building team and 10 person management team. That's 60 people to go sailing a few hundred hours a year.

To do a world series, you're talking about taking 20+ containers per team plus 60+ people per team. Five teams is 100+ containers and 300 people.

Then add pavilions, sponsor support, PR, media, umpires, measurement and circus management - that's another 50 containers and 300 people.

 The AC50s are simply completely unsustainable for anything other than the AC. They are as dead as dead can be.

 

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1 hour ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Soft sails cost a fraction of a wing, are safer, cost less to repair, allow a smaller support team, does not require a crane to put the boat in the water, would probably allow to sail the boat above 30 kts of TWS.

And you know what ? the boat and maintenance would be a fraction of the AC75, would ship easily and would probably be twice faster that the AC75 !!!  With different sets of supercavitating foils it could perhaps reach 60 kts.

Let's wait what they prepare anyway, I will be the first to congrat if they come with a good boat and the first to boo if they don't.

You need to stop writing fantasy and get real. A single set of soft sails might cost less than a wing, but over the period of a campaign, soft sails cost significantly more. Don't just count the cost of the sails. Masts aren't exactly cheap. To keep the budget at less than the cost of solid wings, there needs to be significant limits on the number of sails and the amount you can alter them, which is problematic in itself. You have 2 boats being built so the minimum number of masts will be 2, but 3 is more likely. With sails you will need at least 2 different upwind headsail sizes plus at least 2 downwind sizes. How many iterations are going to be allowed? Even if we ignore development, using them in training and events is going to mean they need replacing. I also think you are wrong about a smaller support team. You simply replace composite guys with sailmakers. The crane thing is a red herring, because you need one to step the mast on a conventional yacht and if you don't have a limit on stepping in the class rules, you will probably pull the stick to get the boat under cover fairly often, if not every night. NZ weather isn't so reliable that you can count on not needing to get the boat under cover for maintenance.

As for foils, super-cavitating foils are a non starter. One thing that was learnt from Paul Larson's efforts is that super-cavitating foils are a real burden in down speed conditions. they would be no good for turning corners or for acceleration. In some conditions, you might get some bursts of speed in a straight line but i cannot see them working around a course

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24 minutes ago, rh2600 said:

But then they are just becoming larger, expensive and fragile GC32s? Wouldn't it be easier to just bring tabs/flaps to the 32s?

I guess I still contend that its natural the GC32s will continue to evolve with ongoing upgrades as a sustainable platform, whilst it makes less sense for AC50s to try and modify themselves to be easier to sail...

There are lots of LE dependent suppliers that would want the AC50 to continue too - including boat builders who made the hulls etc, but this isn't the same as there being a genuine demand...

I agree that GC 32 is an amazing platform, I think it has its place, but the 50 is bigger, more impressive, faster, another ligue.

And, .....they are already existing.

As for the suppliers, for sure some would be interested. It's too late for Green marine though.

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Team_GBR, I don't agree for sails, as much as they may cost, they are cheaper than maintaining a wing and more reliable too. How much do you think it costed TNZ to repair the wing when the capsized ? and they were lucky to be able to repair it.

As I mentionned, supercavitating foils would just be another set for high winds and depending on the race. Also, flaps could modify their profile.

I do recognize that we are dreaming, but the step is smaller than it was 10 years ago when we talked of flying yachts !

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51 minutes ago, Moonduster said:

I don't believe there's any practical way to sail at 60 knots with out either

  1. IMUs and high performance flight control systems; or
  2. Killing people

Either way, grinding makes absolutely no sense - it's batteries and DC pumps.

Anyone who thinks an AC50 can be revitalized and sailed competitively without US$50M per year simply doesn't understand. Roughly speaking, those boats require a 10 person on-the-water team, 10 person shore team, 10 person sailing team, 10 person technical team, a 10 person boat building team and 10 person management team. That's 60 people to go sailing a few hundred hours a year.

To do a world series, you're talking about taking 20+ containers per team plus 60+ people per team. Five teams is 100+ containers and 300 people.

Then add pavilions, sponsor support, PR, media, umpires, measurement and circus management - that's another 50 containers and 300 people.

 The AC50s are simply completely unsustainable for anything other than the AC. They are as dead as dead can be.

 

Unless you have completely unlimited money, obviously.. LE could run all of that and more without blinking an eye with only 20 minutes to think about it, while in the background appreciating enough during that same 20 minutes to run several frikkin’ seasons of it. Seriously, think about what having $60 Thousand Millions means. (! Holy crap!)

$300M is just pocket change when you are looking for opportunities to splurge on, for fun.

IMU’s ?

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You really are clueless ... anyone with money can tell you it's not what you earn, it's what you keep.

Ellison isn't about to piss away half a billion dollars a year to fund a 3-ring sailing circus. He likely hasn't spent much more than that in the 14 years of challenging and defending.

IMU - Inertial Measurement Unit.

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5 minutes ago, Moonduster said:

You really are clueless ... anyone with money can tell you it's not what you earn, it's what you keep.

Is that why LE signed to the Gates/Buffet Pledge, to give away even more than the 95% of that Pledge’s number upon death? 

Look it up!

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54 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Unless you have completely unlimited money, obviously.. LE could run all of that and more without blinking an eye with only 20 minutes to think about it, while in the background appreciating enough during that same 20 minutes to run several frikkin’ seasons of it. Seriously, think about what having $60 Thousand Millions means. (! Holy crap!)

$300M is just pocket change when you are looking for opportunities to splurge on, for fun.

IMU’s ?

Ok, in that case why did he tighten the purse strings for AC35?  OR most certainly did not have a blank check to work with so why do you think a non-AC series would be different?

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1 hour ago, ezyb said:

Ok, in that case why did he tighten the purse strings for AC35?  OR most certainly did not have a blank check to work with so why do you think a non-AC series would be different?

That is a good question and my guess fotvthe answer is that he wanted RC to limit the budget intentionally for competition-evening reasons. It very intentionally allowed others a chance.

 

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3 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

That is a good question and my guess fotvthe answer is that he wanted RC to limit the budget intentionally for competition-evening reasons. It very intentionally allowed others a chance.

 

yea right!

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2 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Massively O/T but the coastal classic live tracking is a great watch right now... BG MOD 70 and Frank (Jimmie) still neck and neck... fucking steaming...

http://forecast.predictwind.com/tracking/race/nzmyc

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3 hours ago, Moonduster said:

Anyone who thinks an AC50 can be revitalized and sailed competitively without US$50M per year simply doesn't understand.

GTF did their complete (non competitive) campaign with 30 millions. Boats are build, most research has been done, boats much easier to transport than an AC75 what if the figures are a fraction of the AC with better cover and in the Northern Emisphere ?

All will depend of the boat they chose for the AC, if it's a light non foiling mono, it will be champagne for another event with real top notch boats.

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2 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

That is a good question and my guess fotvthe answer is that he wanted RC to limit the budget intentionally for competition-evening reasons. It very intentionally allowed others a chance.

 

 The Pinot noir has kicked in again...after drop kicking LR and TNZ multiple times, lazza turned off his trouser money budget to his own team to make it fair for everyone!.....and is ok with getting spanked by those nice kiwi blokes...

So how about we start up a world championship of the world for the boats that got spanked by the kiwis and lazza will be good with paying for a hundred pro sailors to race boats that no one watched when they had Americas Cup in the title..

 

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3 hours ago, ezyb said:

Ok, in that case why did he tighten the purse strings for AC35?  OR most certainly did not have a blank check to work with so why do you think a non-AC series would be different?

 

2 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

That is a good question and my guess fotvthe answer is that he wanted RC to limit the budget intentionally for competition-evening reasons. It very intentionally allowed others a chance.

 

What a load of ill considered rubbish. It was not about making it more competitive. He had lost interest in the AC. I think he was over all the politics and all the expense, although that was mainly from hosting in SF. I believe he was very bitter about how he was treated by SF.

This lack of interest is one reason why i am not getting wildly excited about the new series happening. Something needs to renew his interest before the series could happen and I am not sure that Bertarelli coming to the party helps or hinders.

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Does anyone know about soft wings? Seems like a good compromise. Less wear and tear. Easier to manage. More efficient. But I don't know if anyone has gotten it right yet. Perhaps a rule that allows soft sails and a wingmast or a soft wing.

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4 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

That is a good question and my guess fotvthe answer is that he wanted RC to limit the budget intentionally for competition-evening reasons. It very intentionally allowed others a chance.

 

Oh FFS. Really?

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6 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Unless you have completely unlimited money, obviously.. LE could run all of that and more without blinking an eye with only 20 minutes to think about it, while in the background appreciating enough during that same 20 minutes to run several frikkin’ seasons of it. Seriously, think about what having $60 Thousand Millions means. (! Holy crap!)

$300M is just pocket change when you are looking for opportunities to splurge on, for fun.

IMU’s ?

Stinger iirc you claimed in the lead up to the AC that Lazza had put a serious cap on the campaign fund. So how the hell can you claim he would drop 300 mill on this folly?

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6 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Unless you have completely unlimited money, obviously.. LE could run all of that and more without blinking an eye with only 20 minutes to think about it, while in the background appreciating enough during that same 20 minutes to run several frikkin’ seasons of it. Seriously, think about what having $60 Thousand Millions means. (! Holy crap!)

$300M is just pocket change when you are looking for opportunities to splurge on, for fun.

IMU’s ?

You're like a very impressionable kid...

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2 hours ago, nroose said:

Does anyone know about soft wings? Seems like a good compromise. Less wear and tear. Easier to manage. More efficient. But I don't know if anyone has gotten it right yet. Perhaps a rule that allows soft sails and a wingmast or a soft wing.


Apparently a hard wing puts substantially less load on the platform than a soft rig. So hard to see how the current AC50s could be converted.

Replace the grinders with batteries and the visible difference in crew behaviour between an AC50 and trad sailing would be minimal.

Stick a rule in there that says "Human input shall be given by line, tiller or wheel. Input devices shall not include instruments. Instruments shall not provide advice on optimum state." and that's game consoles and follow the neadle done with.

 

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7 hours ago, rgeek said:


Apparently a hard wing puts substantially less load on the platform than a soft rig. So hard to see how the current AC50s could be converted.

Replace the grinders with batteries and the visible difference in crew behaviour between an AC50 and trad sailing would be minimal.

Stick a rule in there that says "Human input shall be given by line, tiller or wheel. Input devices shall not include instruments. Instruments shall not provide advice on optimum state." and that's game consoles and follow the neadle done with.

 

They would have to reinforce the beams, the boat would be a bit heavier but how much easier to use.

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45 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

They would have to reinforce the beams, the boat would be a bit heavier but how much easier to use.

 

What would the speed difference be if you put an optimal hard wing on a GC32 ? My guess is that you would get close to AC50 speeds.

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6m beam to 8+m beam. The fundamentals seem wrong for that.

Given Phil Robertson and gangs reaction to his first outing on a Super Foiler, that may be the wrong question

 

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19 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Soft sails cost a fraction of a wing, are safer, cost less to repair, allow a smaller support team, does not require a crane to put the boat in the water, would probably allow to sail the boat above 30 kts of TWS....

A single soft sail costs less than a wingsail.  But race boats don't use a single soft sail.  Soft sails are expendable items, good for only a few races (not to mention all the sails made for testing), while wingsails are more like capital investments like hulls.  An AC soft sail budget is at least as much a wingsail.  A wingsail is good for the entire campaign, and probably several campaigns if the Design Rule is stable.  I'd like to see your cost data for typical wingsail repairs compared to the replacement costs of sails - I doubt you'd see  a patched sail used in an AC race.

As for the crane, teams need a crane to step and unstep a mast, so it might as well be used to launch the boat, too, and save the cost of a travel lift.

When wingsails were selected for the AC72s, there was a lot of concern about the cost of fragile wingsails compared to soft sails.  But in practice, the wingsails have proven to be remarkably robust and I'm not convinced campaigning a wingsail is any more expensive than campaigning a soft sail rig.

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7 hours ago, arneelof said:

 

What would the speed difference be if you put an optimal hard wing on a GC32 ? My guess is that you would get close to AC50 speeds.

The wider beam of the 50 allows more power which is key upwind. However if the drag is low enough you do not require that extra power on the reach or downwind. Ice boats are very narrow and the fastest sailboats. So, on flat water + wing and new foils, yes the GC32 could nearly equal AC50 speed. I said nearly because they have not been optimized for aerodrag.

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17 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

Oh FFS. Really?

Yes, I think it very possible that in the pursuit of an economically viable, largely self-sustaining, team-attracting AC format, that LE gave RC a reasonably limited team budget. Why? To force RC to design an event along those lines, an event where a team (like his) can still be competitive even if outspent. Which they probably were by AR and LRBAR, and possibly even by ETNZ as RC did also suggest. Which is fine.

The biggest-dick bragging-rights AC was the AC33 DoG Match, a whole different story and one with a completely different agenda.

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5 hours ago, Basiliscus said:

A single soft sail costs less than a wingsail.  But race boats don't use a single soft sail.  Soft sails are expendable items, good for only a few races (not to mention all the sails made for testing), while wingsails are more like capital investments like hulls.  An AC soft sail budget is at least as much a wingsail.  A wingsail is good for the entire campaign, and probably several campaigns if the Design Rule is stable.  I'd like to see your cost data for typical wingsail repairs compared to the replacement costs of sails - I doubt you'd see  a patched sail used in an AC race.

As for the crane, teams need a crane to step and unstep a mast, so it might as well be used to launch the boat, too, and save the cost of a travel lift.

When wingsails were selected for the AC72s, there was a lot of concern about the cost of fragile wingsails compared to soft sails.  But in practice, the wingsails have proven to be remarkably robust and I'm not convinced campaigning a wingsail is any more expensive than campaigning a soft sail rig.

Thanks Basiliscus. I agree that wings now seem stronger, however:

- to be safe a team should have two wings. Even TNZ with their budget were close to lose the competition because they had to rely on another competitor before being able to repair

- teams alredy have different jibs, so they would just have to have 2 main sails, one for training with patches, 1 for the race

- No need for cranes with soft sails, a floating dock and a winch would be enough.

I think a good solution would be a reefable wing though, easier to install and transport.

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4 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Thanks Basiliscus. I agree that wings now seem stronger, however:

- to be safe a team should have two wings. Even TNZ with their budget were close to lose the competition because they had to rely on another competitor before being able to repair

- teams alredy have different jibs, so they would just have to have 2 main sails, one for training with patches, 1 for the race

- No need for cranes with soft sails, a floating dock and a winch would be enough.

I think a good solution would be a reefable wing though, easier to install and transport.

Stop talking out of your arse. Listen to somebody who actually knows what is going on. There is no way they will limit teams sailing AC75's for 2 years to 2 mainsails and a few jibs. These guys will be out sailing almost every day and there will be loads of development done. There may be a sail button limit, but it needs to be a reasonable number. You also forget the sails need to be hung off something, usually a mast. Developing masts isn't cheap and there will need to be a minimum of 2. One of the big reasons fro bringing in the wing sails in the first place was a budget one. Even the 2 wings was cheaper than a soft sail and mast programme. As for the crane, how do you step a conventional mast of that size? Unless there is a rule to stop it, you will see these new boats stepping and unstepping their masts on a regular basis, probably every day, because they now know how easy it would be and they will want to get their boats fully dried out under cover and maintained overnight.

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3 hours ago, Team_GBR said:

Stop talking out of your arse. Listen to somebody who actually knows what is going on. There is no way they will limit teams sailing AC75's for 2 years to 2 mainsails and a few jibs. These guys will be out sailing almost every day and there will be loads of development done. There may be a sail button limit, but it needs to be a reasonable number. You also forget the sails need to be hung off something, usually a mast. Developing masts isn't cheap and there will need to be a minimum of 2. One of the big reasons fro bringing in the wing sails in the first place was a budget one. Even the 2 wings was cheaper than a soft sail and mast programme. As for the crane, how do you step a conventional mast of that size? Unless there is a rule to stop it, you will see these new boats stepping and unstepping their masts on a regular basis, probably every day, because they now know how easy it would be and they will want to get their boats fully dried out under cover and maintained overnight.

Before using the first words of the post you should read, I was talking the possible use of soft sails on the AC50.  As far as taking off AC75 masts after each race....lol

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4 hours ago, Team_GBR said:

Stop talking out of your arse. Listen to somebody who actually knows what is going on. There is no way they will limit teams sailing AC75's for 2 years to 2 mainsails and a few jibs. These guys will be out sailing almost every day and there will be loads of development done. There may be a sail button limit, but it needs to be a reasonable number. You also forget the sails need to be hung off something, usually a mast. Developing masts isn't cheap and there will need to be a minimum of 2. One of the big reasons fro bringing in the wing sails in the first place was a budget one. Even the 2 wings was cheaper than a soft sail and mast programme. As for the crane, how do you step a conventional mast of that size? Unless there is a rule to stop it, you will see these new boats stepping and unstepping their masts on a regular basis, probably every day, because they now know how easy it would be and they will want to get their boats fully dried out under cover and maintained overnight.

 

I guess the main trick to keep costs down is to use one design elements. Can be used both for soft and wing sails.

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Just now, arneelof said:

 

I guess the main trick to keep costs down is to use one design elements. Can be used both for soft and wing sails.

Don't see how you can go one design on the sails of a new box/formula rule. OD jibs on the AC50's made sense because they had lots of data to base the design on. Unless they are full of shit, we have been promised a new type of boat and there will need to be a sail development programme. Rig development for the next edition is going to cost more than the last one.

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3 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Looks like a lot of home for the money. Very nice.

Agree, that place is gorgeous.

Hopefully we’ll see similar news about various rock stars buying homes in new-to-them locales, as indicators of their new family residency choices.. Like, Barker Buys Home in Annapolis or somesuch?

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4 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Pricy home for just two years. Especially given that the stamp duty plus broker fee plus other transaction expenses total about 15% of the purchase price. 

$8.5mm X 0.15 = $1,275,000

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23 minutes ago, jaysper said:

Jimmy Spithill says Oracle Team USA will try to win back America's Cup

 

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-sports/98242847/jimmy-spithill-says-oracle-team-usa-will-try-to-win-back-americas-cup

 

Not convinced that this is ridgey didge, shame if it is as I was hoping to see the back of Lazza.

From the RB link (dated ‘1 month ago’):

Will you now be one of the hunters?

We will definitely be chasing this America’s Cup .

What is the future of ORACLE Team USA?

Larry [Ellison] wants to wait until the rules and the protocol comes out. But we want to go and get that Cup back.

 

me: JS has been far less forthcoming than that in more recent interviews, so who really knows. Clean thinks a Google-related Chall is more likely and it may well be the case.

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1 minute ago, ~Stingray~ said:

From the RB link (dated one month ago):

What is the future of ORACLE Team USA?

Larry [Ellison] wants to wait until the rules and the protocol comes out. But we want to go and get that Cup back.

me: JS has been far less forthcoming than that in more recent interviews, so who really knows.

Even if Lazza does come back in, I do wonder if he would keep Jimmy.

I realise that most of the difference between Orifice and ETNZ was due to ETNZ having a much better boat, but Jimmy was also fairly comprehensively owned by Burling.

Some of that could have been the way they set the boat up for Burling, but not all of it I reckon.

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14 minutes ago, jaysper said:

Even if Lazza does come back in, I do wonder if he would keep Jimmy.

I realise that most of the difference between Orifice and ETNZ was due to ETNZ having a much better boat, but Jimmy was also fairly comprehensively owned by Burling.

Some of that could have been the way they set the boat up for Burling, but not all of it I reckon.

The ETNZ boat was far more manouverable in the light and easier to keep flying, was the biggest of OR’s problems. 

Good find by the Herald (Stuff) though, I wonder who or what led them to that link?

 

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7 minutes ago, ezyb said:

But I have to cross the road like a commoner to get to my yacht!

Almost looks like a railroad track? 

Anyway, I’d give my nuts for a place like that and am very happy a sailor can live so good a lifestyle. Have been amazed by JS starting when he joined Seattle’s OneWorld, racing with sailing friends of mine from high school and university, them later also joining him at Luna Rossa, friends who unlike me chose to stick with racing instead of pursuing another career. He really is a cool story.

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You’re right. But the driveway is even wider than that little lane, it’s an absolute beauty of a property. 

I would look up his San Diego / Point Loma property but he’s been sensitive to family privacy and so will let that go.

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Harbour Road is a relatively busy road, but it's easy to cross, as traffic in Bermuda only travels at about 25 mph (35 kph). A large percentage of the houses on Harbour Road are like Jimmy's, where you cross the road to get to your dock.

No big deal.

Jimmy's house also backs onto the Belmont Hills golf course, which is a nice buffer. And the views across Granaway Deep really are spectacular.

You also have to remember that real estate is very expensive in Bermuda--prices comparable to San Francisco-- so  an $8.5 million house (Bermuda $ and US $ are pegged to each other) is expensive, but not exactly the top of the market.

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5 hours ago, accnick said:

Harbour Road is a relatively busy road, but it's easy to cross, as traffic in Bermuda only travels at about 25 mph (35 kph). A large percentage of the houses on Harbour Road are like Jimmy's, where you cross the road to get to your dock.

No big deal.

Jimmy's house also backs onto the Belmont Hills golf course, which is a nice buffer. And the views across Granaway Deep really are spectacular.

You also have to remember that real estate is very expensive in Bermuda--prices comparable to San Francisco-- so  an $8.5 million house (Bermuda $ and US $ are pegged to each other) is expensive, but not exactly the top of the market.

It's not THAT expensive, relatively.

He also owns a NZ$6m property in Auckland's, Herne Bay (IIRC).

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9 hours ago, jaysper said:

Even if Lazza does come back in, I do wonder if he would keep Jimmy.

I realise that most of the difference between Orifice and ETNZ was due to ETNZ having a much better boat, but Jimmy was also fairly comprehensively owned by Burling.

Some of that could have been the way they set the boat up for Burling, but not all of it I reckon.

Don't kid yourself. The NZ boat as faster in a straight line, turned better and accelerated better. The way it was set up made it easier for the helm to sail. There was no department where it was even equalled by OR. If the roles had been reversed and JS had been the ETNZ helm and PB been the Oracle helm, JS would have owned PB just as convincingly. With a vastly superior boat, it is "easy" to make the other side look bad. I take nothing away from Burling. It was a team effort and he made a major contribution to the team but the whole "he owned Spithill argument is way over the top.. 

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2 hours ago, Team_GBR said:

Don't kid yourself. The NZ boat as faster in a straight line, turned better and accelerated better. 

1

Yet you're on record  declaring ETNZ was slow and uncompetitive against your hard-on team Artemis and OR-Xerox...hindsight is a bitch :lol: when it makes a liar of you.

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1 hour ago, Indio said:

Yet you're on record  declaring ETNZ was slow and uncompetitive against your hard-on team Artemis and OR-Xerox...hindsight is a bitch :lol: when it makes a liar of you.

Fuck off troll. I never said that. Only a complete arsehole could manage what you have done there. I gave credit where credit is due, yet you troll that and you do it by totally misquoting me. I never said ETNZ was slow and uncompetitive, but then again, you never have been good at comprehension and you have never allowed the truth to get in the way of a good troll. Go bck and check. All i ever said was that not being in Bermuda put them at a significant disadvantage and guess what, Glenn Ashby said that after the event. He is on record saying that it was the biggest gamble and it nearly failed because when they got there, hey realised their training in NZ hadn't shown them everything they needed to learn. Fortunately for them, they had a boat that was good enough and the crew were great at learning how to sail the boat in very different situations from what they had practised in. Before you troll again, consider that yet again i acknowledge what a good job the team did, but I guess you are such an argumentative troll you will use any excuse to fight so for the first time ever, I am placing somebody on ignore.

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