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      A Few Simple Rules   05/22/2017

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QBF

Sailrocket 3 - The Offshore version

105 posts in this topic

The team that created the record breaking Vestas-Sailrocket, and set a new world record of 65.45 knots average over a 500m course, is now working on an offshore design.

In an interview, Paul Larsen said "A large part of the challenge ahead will be in navigating the path between what is theoretically possible and what is practically achievable."

"For now we will hold back on the specific targets we are aiming at and what the full-scale craft will actually look like. We need to have more in place before either is revealed. We know already what we are proposing is possible. The journey we are offering is to be the ones to make it real."

http://sailrocket.com/stories

This should be very interesting, considering the accomplishments this team has already achieved.

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Longtime SA'ers will know of our love affair with Sailrocket's Paul Larsen, and our favorite ultra-high speed sailor, offshore racer, C-Class star, and Antarctic explorer is firing up the Sailrocket team for a new and extremely ambitious new project - a truly ocean-capable, highly stable, offshore foiler. And whether he succeeds or fails might just depend on you. Here's an note from Paul just for you SAers:


Paul-Larsen-1024x684.jpg



I left some space in my life after the record (and Shackleton gig) on purpose to see what would fill it. I didn't want to go out and say "we will do this and that" just to satisfy the "what next" crowd. We had a lot of ideas and have run hot and cold on a few of them. Of course I was constantly reflecting on what had happened over the past 10-12 years with the Sailrocket project and was trying to work out in my own head what it was all about. It did humour me that people would often ask why I'm doing it or question its purpose, but if you asked the same people what's the purpose of professional ball sports (tennis for example), most people have never considered it and therefore don't have an answer. The truth is that they have never really thought about it; "just runnin' with the herd, man".



We all do it to some extent, but what I like about our little speedsailing corner of the sport is that not only do you get to compete and demonstrate sporting attributes, you also get to develop the sport technically - fiddling with the genetics to improve the breed. Whether we can do it in a useful and meaningful way remains to be seen, but it is a big part of our motivation.



So here we were as new custodians of this technology and know-how that just took our chosen passion - speed sailing - to a whole new level. Something which was previously just a theory has proven itself to not only be real, but vastly superior. Many people focused on the impractical aspects of the boat rather than what it was designed to showcase. For us it's more a case of one thing at a time. Now we have shown the performance potential of the concepts, the next step should be to show how it can be applied in more useful ways.



I have spent a long time going over the new concept as I am pretty sceptical of new concepts myself, but the potential of this one keeps shining through that healthy scepticism. We're not going to release the numbers just yet, but the stuff coming out of our new concept's VPPs are pretty special, hard to fault and demand our ongoing interest. Trying to apply our stability concepts to a practical offshore boat has lead to some interesting configurations, and once again, we have had to confront some big issues head on in order for it to be viable; exactly our process when overcoming cavitation en route to a new record. VSR2 was a very efficient and effective 'tool' for developing and proving a point, and there was no 'fat' on the bone with that project. She did an astounding job, with almost decimal accuracy, with a small team on a tight budget. Once the job was done she was simply hosed off and put away in her 40' container with barely a scratch. Whilst the end speed was great, our ability to accomplish a goal in this fashion is our real advantage. There is the potential to do some pretty big stuff offshore at the moment for a fraction of the cost of an AC team; probably more around the price of a budget VOR campaign, and if you liked what we did before then you will probably love where we are going next.



The challenge now is to see if we have the credibility and ability to muster the required level of resources. If we can, well that little one-way freak that you think only lives in the rarefied flat waters off a sandy African town may be about to land square in the middle of your own 'pond' and start doing its freaky thing - in all directions, on any day. If the numbers translate into reality as well as they did with VSR2 then, change will be upon us all.



The Sailrocket story isn't over and the road ahead beckons. If you have some specific questions for some unique content then fire away.


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Very exciting! I wonder what sort of distances/races they are contemplating. We had some hope for Hydroptere when she was here, to try to get a LA - Honolulu record, but their timing was very poor.

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Can you imagine Hydroptere and SR3 lining up in NY to go for a TransAt? Complete game changer if they get this through...

 

HW

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Hi Paul, good to see you back after the well deserved "vacation" - guess you can call your Schackleton project like that after SR1 and SR2!

 

This sounds really exciting, and I am sure you guys will come up with more revolutionary stuff.

 

I wish you all success in this new adventure!

 

Cheers,

 

Jose

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Can't

fucking

wait.

 

Get'm Paul.

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Awfully quiet here...

I'm sure many of us have loads of questions but find it hard to translate what we know about SR2 into an ocean-going environment.

I'd be really interested to know what direction your concept is heading,so when will we get a first glimpse of SR3?

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Man, I have blue-balls . . . that kind of tease with no pics/plans/specs at all????!!!!!

 

Don't get overly excited. I suspect it'll be some time before Sailrocket posts an update.

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I know, but I love this kind of stuff. A totally open drawing board.

 

Cat, try, other. Wing? Wings? Kite? How many foils, planing surfaces? Very cool stuff.

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My best guess is that the revolutionary part will be a way to orient the hull(s) to the apparent wind...

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Sitting down in Toy-town, Lorient at the end of a fine line of thoroughbred multihulls all getting Rhum'd up. Very inspiring. I'm constantly picturing in my doing the dimensional maths and trying to picture what a big SR3 would look like amongst these pigeons. I'm not even sure how it would fit in here. They have done a great job with this base. When I first came here 15 years ago I had to show my passport. We will keep quiet on many of the key design principles of SR3. Whilst it is tempting and too easy to just throw it out 'there', I feel it's better to follow a process where we allow the designs to grow without the pressure of public scrutiny. The concept will grow as we dig deeper into the studies and things will change so that by the time we start to build, as with SR2, you can be sure that it is well considered. It will be worth the wait.

Cheers, Paul

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Thank you for the update, Paul.

 

We'll be waiting patiently for further updates from you as time goes on. Well, most of us will be waiting patiently, others, not so much :)

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Sitting down in Toy-town, Lorient at the end of a fine line of thoroughbred multihulls all getting Rhum'd up. Very inspiring. I'm constantly picturing in my doing the dimensional maths and trying to picture what a big SR3 would look like amongst these pigeons. I'm not even sure how it would fit in here. They have done a great job with this base. When I first came here 15 years ago I had to show my passport. We will keep quiet on many of the key design principles of SR3. Whilst it is tempting and too easy to just throw it out 'there', I feel it's better to follow a process where we allow the designs to grow without the pressure of public scrutiny. The concept will grow as we dig deeper into the studies and things will change so that by the time we start to build, as with SR2, you can be sure that it is well considered. It will be worth the wait.

Cheers, Paul

 

Absolutely understand, Paul, and a good track to follow. Still, not what WE want to hear ;)

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So, whilst we wait for the technical aspects to come out, I do have a question on the commercials, and that is on sponsorship.

How do you structure the funding requirements?

Do you have a gold sponsor, and then sub-sponsors?

Does the former provide 80%, and the others 20%?

The reason I am interested is to ascertain if our esteemed SA community, with some knowledge, could assist in identifying potential sponsors/increasing awareness?

We have a pretty broad (some may say eclectic) mix of members here, one could say?

Could also be a train wreck, you could end up with 1800 local pub names to fit on the hull :)

SB

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Thanks for the late night session Paul and a peep at the model. Very innovative and original idea that made sense to me. All the best for the funding and completion of the SR3 project. You have pulled of 1 and 2 brilliantly. Now for 3. Cheers

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For some people a watertight NDA is as simple as a request and a handshake, I like those people :)

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For some people a watertight NDA is as simple as a request and a handshake, I like those people :)

Well I like those people too, but they shouldn't be teasing us here with such cryptic remarks!!!!!

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It's been three months since Paul posted on his newest Sailrocket project. It seems I am the one that cannot wait for an update.

 

After seeing the results of the Route du Rhum's Ultime, and Multi50 class, I cannot but wonder how Paul's latest vision would do in competition with these boats.

 

Maybe we'll see a 50/60 footer from Paul and his team outrun an Ultime in the next edition of the Route du Rhum.

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You just beat me too it, I was looking at this thread a week or so ago, saw that it was just 5 or 6 weeks since the last posts, thought I'd give Paul a few more days to mull over an answer!

 

But now we're here, so what of it, Paul, any chance at a tiny lift of the veil?

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It's been three months since Paul posted on his newest Sailrocket project. It seems I am the one that cannot wait for an update.

 

After seeing the results of the Route du Rhum's Ultime, and Multi50 class, I cannot but wonder how Paul's latest vision would do in competition with these boats.

 

Maybe we'll see a 50/60 footer from Paul and his team outrun an Ultime in the next edition of the Route du Rhum.

 

For what it's worth, one major lesson of this year's RdR is that you also have to do well upwind in bad sees and gusty winds to succeed in offshore racing.

 

As much as would love to be proven wrong, I really don't see what experience gained from a machine specifically designed for such a narrow use as Sailrocket would transpose to ocean racing. C-Class and AC72 foilers at least can jybe and tack, and the lessons learned there have indeed been applied to Seb Josse's Multi70 to make it more stable, but it was a good ocean going multi to start with.

 

Even hydroptère, a much more seaworthy concept, wouldn't stand a chance in a race such as RdR against more "all around" craft such as BPVII, Sodebo, IDEC-2, PdB or even the former MOD70s.

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It's been three months since Paul posted on his newest Sailrocket project. It seems I am the one that cannot wait for an update.

 

After seeing the results of the Route du Rhum's Ultime, and Multi50 class, I cannot but wonder how Paul's latest vision would do in competition with these boats.

 

Maybe we'll see a 50/60 footer from Paul and his team outrun an Ultime in the next edition of the Route du Rhum.

 

For what it's worth, one major lesson of this year's RdR is that you also have to do well upwind in bad sees and gusty winds to succeed in offshore racing.

 

As much as would love to be proven wrong, I really don't see what experience gained from a machine specifically designed for such a narrow use as Sailrocket would transpose to ocean racing. C-Class and AC72 foilers at least can jybe and tack, and the lessons learned there have indeed been applied to Seb Josse's Multi70 to make it more stable, but it was a good ocean going multi to start with.

 

Even hydroptère, a much more seaworthy concept, wouldn't stand a chance in a race such as RdR against more "all around" craft such as BPVII, Sodebo, IDEC-2, PdB or even the former MOD70s.

Agreed. Archimedes still looks to be king of the ocean. Maybe that will change one day, but it would take a big leap in foiling reliably to surpass waterline and mass, when waves are such a hindrance. It would be interesting to see a race with the same Ultime boats leaving from the Canaries rather than St. Malo.

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Proa?

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I don't think that the design of SR2 is what will be fast offshore............its the PROVEN determination and application of the sailrocket team that will turn heads in time

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I don't think that the design of SR2 is what will be fast offshore............its the PROVEN determination and application of the sailrocket team that will turn heads in time

 

+1 They are one hell of a brand.

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I really don't think the Sailrocket team is designing an ocean going version of the boat they set the record with. Paul and his team know the conditions they'll be experiencing crossing an ocean, and S3 will be a totally different boat than S2.

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The fundamental concept behind Sailrocket was that the lift vector from the wing lined up with the lift vector from the foil such that the craft was not constrained by available righting moment. I'm eager to see what they come up with for an offshore craft as I don't see any reason why the principle couldn't be applied offshore. It seems to me that hydrofoiling is not essential to apply the concept and I can envision a big wide offshore boat with a massive canting rig that could work the same way and be able to tack and gybe. I can't wait to see what they're thinking.

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Hi all, apologies for keeping you in suspense. An update is long overdue. I can only assure you that it is not due to lack of activity. I'm as obsessed with this boat as I ever was with the previous two. The challenge of developing and designing an offshore concept that is just all-round 'better' has been a fascinating one. The answers aren't obvious and often not we are conditioned to look for. Some of the biggest discoveries come by accident. If I look at our first proposals for the concept from a year ago, they have changed quite a lot from what I would write now. Things have become far more interesting. I remain as healthily sceptical as ever and like to truly convince myself first before blurting things out. That said, I promise a much lengthier update on the 24th of November (our own little anniversary day). On another front, things are on the move. SR2 has left the building and the fastest sailing boat currently afloat on the North Atlantic isn't a trimaran... perhaps that's a sign of what's to come.

I hope we can reward your patience.

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Hi all, apologies for keeping you in suspense. An update is long overdue. I can only assure you that it is not due to lack of activity. I'm as obsessed with this boat as I ever was with the previous two. The challenge of developing and designing an offshore concept that is just all-round 'better' has been a fascinating one. The answers aren't obvious and often not we are conditioned to look for. Some of the biggest discoveries come by accident. If I look at our first proposals for the concept from a year ago, they have changed quite a lot from what I would write now. Things have become far more interesting. I remain as healthily sceptical as ever and like to truly convince myself first before blurting things out. That said, I promise a much lengthier update on the 24th of November (our own little anniversary day). On another front, things are on the move. SR2 has left the building and the fastest sailing boat currently afloat on the North Atlantic isn't a trimaran... perhaps that's a sign of what's to come.

I hope we can reward your patience.

 

Thank you for this update, Paul!

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Well, I'll go out on a near broken limb and have a guess: The machine will be a slim mono with an inclining wingmill rig,that is, pivoting from the middle of the wing on a bearing atop of a short central mast, the wing with maybe 50/50 hard/soft sail AND there will be foils set into the wing ends so the lower wing/foil will be lifting the lower float?/foil end. This sort of thing but no floats, just foils.

Okay Paul, correct me with my mad conjecture.

post-100779-0-86194600-1417343889_thumb.jpg

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Well, I'll go out on a near broken limb and have a guess: The machine will be a slim mono with an inclining wingmill rig,that is, pivoting from the middle of the wing with maybe 50/50 hard/soft sail AND there will be foils set into the wing ends so the lower wing/foil will be lifting the lower float?/foil end.

Okay Paul, correct me with my mad dream.

Is that english? But okay, I get your drift.What are the design rules for 36th cup? 10th segmented wing allowed?

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Ten segments? With slots everywhere? High lift, yes, but high drag also. Good luck building it. But anything is possible.

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Ten segments? With slots everywhere? High lift, yes, but high drag also. Good luck building it. But anything is possible.

We have nano technology...

post-17796-0-57134000-1417952793_thumb.jpg

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Well, I'll go out on a near broken limb and have a guess: The machine will be a slim mono with an inclining wingmill rig,that is, pivoting from the middle of the wing on a bearing atop of a short central mast, the wing with maybe 50/50 hard/soft sail AND there will be foils set into the wing ends so the lower wing/foil will be lifting the lower float?/foil end. This sort of thing but no floats, just foils.

Okay Paul, correct me with my mad conjecture.

 

Well, if I understand what you described correctly, it has been tried before...

https://foils.wordpress.com/2008/09/17/objectif-100-complexite-ou-simplicite/

 

They apparently had only one small problem: how do you tack the damn thing? (or gibe, for that matter)

If you look at the graph, further down in this article, the pilot (can we call him anything else?) was supposed to swing the whole rig overhead: the tip of the wing became the foot, and vice-versa.

 

It never worked...

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Update?

 

I've been checking their website weekly, but the last post is dated Wed, 9 July 2014.

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^^

Second thoughts; now, if you put that on a trimaran... like you did on your picture... with the windward foil pulling downward just enough to keep the windward ama skimming the water surface...

You apparently tried it. So, how is it?

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post-39281-0-03865600-1418934459_thumb.jpgHi SAists, well if it's any consolation... I feel like I'm letting you down by not doing any updates. It's not like I haven't written a few... and then scrubbed them before posting. The trouble is that we are looking at a whole different ball game now. With speed sailing we weren't really threatening anyone. Whilst we were in competition with others chasing the same record, no one else really saw us as crossing into their 'ponds'. Nice trick... but business as usual. Well the next boat is different. If there is one thing I am sure of it is that if our ideas are as good as we think they are... then there are others who would take them, modify them and, even if we were given some credit, claim them as their own. Once you hear the catchy tune... it usually seems so simple and obvious. I do find this position very frustrating.

If I was to show you a little, I would have to show you the lot. The concepts don't make sense without the full explanation of the compromises and solutions to the various design loops we have been through. Every criticism you would make would be justified as we have already made it ourselves. It's only when you see the whole picture that it makes sense.

Obviously we think we have come up with something that is better than what exists and obviously there are many well established industries feeding off 'what exists'. We need to respect that aspect.

I greatly value sharing SR3 with people outside the inner circle. I love honest feedback. On the few occasions I have done it, it quickly became apparent that it was a lot of information to take in. Too much. We needed better tools by which to share our ideas. That is what I have been working on. Scale models, renders, VPP's and now animations. These are invaluable. Whilst I have clear pictures in my own head, others don't. Once these 'tools' are finished then we will use them to try and find partners who want to really take on a fascinating sailing challenge... not just pay lip service to innovation and do something a little different than what has been before. There is just so much unexplored territory with the forces of wind and water. I'm not interested in class rules or WSSRC restrictions. The gloves are off in that respect. I find aviation design and development much more inspiring than what has happened in sailing and yet I remain fascinated about the difficulties surrounding our unique environment.

When we took on Sailrocket 2, I chose to look at 65 knots and design backwards from there i.e. Whats the worst performance we could expect from a foil that could actually still work at that speed? Once we settled on that horribly draggy number, we designed the boat that could drag it at 65 knots in the conditions we knew we would encounter in Namibia. With SR3 I have always said that I wanted to take what we have learnt and make it practical. Just designing a one tack trans-Atlantic record smashing boat would be, let's face it, a shit load of fun... but that's all. It actually wouldn't be that hard (besides the usual difficulties with any larger scale project). I've spent a lot of time pondering what would be a much more worthwhile challenge. For me it would be to design a sailing boat that could possibly make sailing viable on commercial craft again. To do that you need to break away convention. If you were to look at some basic parameters that would make sailing craft viable again I think that efficient speed, cost of manufacture/running and ability to carry payload would be the holy grail. The third one is a 'biggy'. Like with 65 knots, I am trying to work backwards from fulfilling ALL those parameters to a high degree (not just "pick any two"). There are potential markets out there that don't exist now simply because the craft that would enable them don't exist. Maybe if they did... and new industries blossomed, sailing would become truly relevant again. Who knows? All I know is that the concepts we are working on can do some pretty cool things that even I wasn't considering before we began exploring new paths. It always amazes how your accidents can often lead to your breakthroughs.

So right now, I'll be honest with you, this stage of the project consists of me working obsessively in a windowless loft on all aspects of SR3 from design, to rendering and model building on a few grand left over from the SR2 'fighting fund'.

post-39281-0-03865600-1418934459_thumb.jpg

 

I run my ideas and concepts through Malcolm and Chris to get their valued thoughts and realistic numbers assigned to them so we can check the VPP's to make sure we are on track. The numbers are good. There are no sponsors and although we have approached a couple, the nature of the proposal has already changed (for the better). It's actually very nice to be going through this almost artistic phase without any outside pressures. I am very happy with how things are progressing and the potential of the concept fills me with excitement. I have to contain that excitement so that I can see when things are wrong with clear eyes. That is why it is good to share it with fresh eyes occasionally. This stage cannot go on forever though. We will sail the next scale model of the concept in the next month and see if it supports our theories and how they developed from the first model. Next year we need to find partners to scale it all up.

 

There is no doubt that whilst our success with speed sailing perhaps still left us in the 'freaks' category, it did give us the credibility chip. It showed we have a proven feel for the compromises that enabled us to turn a unique vision into reality (on very little resource). I think we will only be given one real chance to use that chip so please forgive us for not being so open with SR3. I hope we do find the right partners to share the journey with so we can put it out there. I hope, as much for their sake, that we find them soon. The time is right for this next boat and this part of the development is a fascinating stage to be part of i.e. the last version I drew had 100 seats in it.

Cheers, Paul

 

 

 

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snip

If I was to show you a little, I would have to show you the lot and then I'd have to kill you.The concepts don't make sense without the full explanation of the compromises and solutions to the various design loops we have been through. Every criticism you would make would be justified as we have already made it ourselves. It's only when you see the whole picture that it makes sense.......snip

 

Cheers, Paul

.

...thanks Paul...best keep details to yourself then! :rolleyes:

 

.....now that you're moving from an inshore speedster to offshore...is there any words from your sponsor that they'd want to see proper offshore credentials and experience before venturing further?? :mellow:;)

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post-39281-0-34338600-1418937566_thumb.jpg

19 knots Pfhhhh... We parked the first one at nearly twice that... and then came out and broke our first world record a few runs later ... new foil and underpants though;) Got a great video of it here somewhere.

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attachicon.gifRun 61 from shore round up(3)_36.jpg

19 knots Pfhhhh... We parked the first one at nearly twice that... and then came out and broke our first world record a few runs later ... new foil and underpants though;) Got a great video of it here somewhere.

.

...heh,,,with speeds you'd be getting,I don't suppose you'd have to wade through surf :)

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attachicon.gifRun 61 from shore round up(3)_36.jpg

19 knots Pfhhhh... We parked the first one at nearly twice that... and then came out and broke our first world record a few runs later ... new foil and underpants though;) Got a great video of it here somewhere.

 

 

Might this be the video you are thinking about?

 

 

Then of course there is this unfortunate run

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No, neither of those. There's still a few vids of some of the first boats hairier moments that we haven't posted. I guess all this belongs in another thread really. Posting a video of a boat running up a beach at speed is about as un-"off-shore" as it gets!

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.

...is Vestas still a big part of the project?

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While we wait for some news we can survive ...

Ten segments? With slots everywhere? High lift, yes, but high drag also. Good luck building it. But anything is possible.

 

Three segments is what the C class seems to have settled for, and it's a time honored number:

post-34483-0-11618300-1419360507_thumb.jpg

 

More nice drawings here, for your procastinating pleasure.

Basically in italian, but the drawings are worth it.

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Infinitely better than what I'm avoiding....

 

No kidding the drawings are worth it.

 

I need a new ink cartridge or 5, unless this is available in book form?

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^^

Second thoughts; now, if you put that on a trimaran... like you did on your picture... with the windward foil pulling downward just enough to keep the windward ama skimming the water surface...

You apparently tried it. So, how is it?

The wing rig in the photograph never got a chance to sail ... because once afloat and on a mooring that night, a savage wind arrived bringing in decent seas into the bay; I had parked the boat with the wing set horizontally and next morning, the wing had broken and was flapping wildly in the high wind. So I lowered the mess, actually quite dangerous in the conditions, then dumped ii in small pieces into a wheely bin. And then built a conventional wing mast/soft sail, see jpeg.

I always learn the hard way. Having said that - still believe the idea will work .... except it's not me who is not going to do it.

post-100779-0-08800000-1420188688_thumb.jpg

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No, no, that's Groucho's 15.5m mostly light grey and yellow mast lying across the boat. Sid's mostly black mast is 11.5 m. Can understand the confusion, both look very similar.

post-100779-0-44880000-1420237218_thumb.jpg

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Hi all, apologies for keeping you in suspense. An update is long overdue. I can only assure you that it is not due to lack of activity. I'm as obsessed with this boat as I ever was with the previous two. The challenge of developing and designing an offshore concept that is just all-round 'better' has been a fascinating one. The answers aren't obvious and often not we are conditioned to look for. Some of the biggest discoveries come by accident. If I look at our first proposals for the concept from a year ago, they have changed quite a lot from what I would write now. Things have become far more interesting. I remain as healthily sceptical as ever and like to truly convince myself first before blurting things out. That said, I promise a much lengthier update on the 24th of November (our own little anniversary day). On another front, things are on the move. SR2 has left the building and the fastest sailing boat currently afloat on the North Atlantic isn't a trimaran... perhaps that's a sign of what's to come.

I hope we can reward your patience.

 

Hi Paul,

It's now four months past the date you promised lengthy update. Might you have any news you can share with us?

 

If not, at least this bump will keep this thread on the first page in this forum until you do have some news.

 

QBF

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I went to the SR site & blog, and they seemed mostly dead (that is, not updated since July), until I noticed the following status in the upper right:

"second sail of mk2 model of Mk3 Rocket. Weapon."

 

Larso's clearly holding out on us, more than I thought..

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I was just going to bump this thread. I hope Paul is gaining some steam and just keeping quiet. With all the new foiling applications, like the new Gunboat, going around right now, you have to think it is just a matter of relatively short time until we see a ocean-crossing / RTW foiler. Would love to see Paul leading that charge (hopefully with some deep pockets behind him).

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I went to the SR site & blog, and they seemed mostly dead (that is, not updated since July), until I noticed the following status in the upper right:

"second sail of mk2 model of Mk3 Rocket. Weapon."

 

Larso's clearly holding out on us, more than I thought..

Would be nice to know what the model is like.

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Melanesia style proa, with vector aligned winward board, with the indonesian style lug sail upped to aeronautic standars (flaps included) and a Gibbons shunting method.

Or something else.

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Oh Paul...

Sébastien Josse's Multi70 Edmond de Rothschild is soon to sprout foils.
http://www.gitana-team.com/en/event.news.aspx?eventid=95&newsid=1108

"In her 2015 version, Gitana XV will be equipped with new foils and the entire lifting surface system on the float rudders has been reviewed. Everyone has put a lot of work into it, from the design office in relation with Guillaume Verdier, to the team in the workshop bringing the architects’ plans to life and setting up the systems. Naturally we’re itching to see the results on the water."

SA thread: Offshore Foiling Revolution-Gitana
http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=165183

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attachicon.gifIMG_1204_800x600.jpgHi SAists, well if it's any consolation... I feel like I'm letting you down by not doing any updates. It's not like I haven't written a few... and then scrubbed them before posting. The trouble is that we are looking at a whole different ball game now. With speed sailing we weren't really threatening anyone. Whilst we were in competition with others chasing the same record, no one else really saw us as crossing into their 'ponds'. Nice trick... but business as usual. Well the next boat is different. If there is one thing I am sure of it is that if our ideas are as good as we think they are... then there are others who would take them, modify them and, even if we were given some credit, claim them as their own. Once you hear the catchy tune... it usually seems so simple and obvious. I do find this position very frustrating.

 

SNIP

 

 

Larso, please give us something to chew on! It's been 4 months and you didn't really tell us anything then.

 

Even if you can't give details of the boat and how it works, please let us know what stage things are at. I see that you have been sailing a model. What size is it - is it remote control? Has it been behaving as expected? Has any progress been made with regards to sponsors or are Vestas covering everything?

 

What is the programme for the main build, or is that still some distance off? What will you do once the build is complete - trials presumably, then what? Trans Atlantic? Jules Verne?

 

All these and many more questions.......

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attachicon.gifIMG_1204_800x600.jpgHi SAists, well if it's any consolation... I feel like I'm letting you down by not doing any updates. It's not like I haven't written a few... and then scrubbed them before posting. The trouble is that we are looking at a whole different ball game now. With speed sailing we weren't really threatening anyone. Whilst we were in competition with others chasing the same record, no one else really saw us as crossing into their 'ponds'. Nice trick... but business as usual. Well the next boat is different. If there is one thing I am sure of it is that if our ideas are as good as we think they are... then there are others who would take them, modify them and, even if we were given some credit, claim them as their own. Once you hear the catchy tune... it usually seems so simple and obvious. I do find this position very frustrating.

 

SNIP

 

 

Larso, please give us something to chew on! It's been 4 months and you didn't really tell us anything then.

 

Even if you can't give details of the boat and how it works, please let us know what stage things are at. I see that you have been sailing a model. What size is it - is it remote control? Has it been behaving as expected? Has any progress been made with regards to sponsors or are Vestas covering everything?

 

What is the programme for the main build, or is that still some distance off? What will you do once the build is complete - trials presumably, then what? Trans Atlantic? Jules Verne?

 

All these and many more questions.......

 

 

Newport to Bermuda in under 23 hours to beat Lending Club 2's new record?

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I guess Lasso is pretty busy at the moment earning a living by racing Paradox in the Caribbean. If you have looked at the g4 thread he has been quoted on there.

Probably a bit busy to do updates here.

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Hi all, apologies for keeping you in suspense. An update is long overdue. I can only assure you that it is not due to lack of activity. I'm as obsessed with this boat as I ever was with the previous two. The challenge of developing and designing an offshore concept that is just all-round 'better' has been a fascinating one. The answers aren't obvious and often not we are conditioned to look for. Some of the biggest discoveries come by accident. If I look at our first proposals for the concept from a year ago, they have changed quite a lot from what I would write now. Things have become far more interesting. I remain as healthily sceptical as ever and like to truly convince myself first before blurting things out. That said, I promise a much lengthier update on the 24th of November (our own little anniversary day). On another front, things are on the move. SR2 has left the building and the fastest sailing boat currently afloat on the North Atlantic isn't a trimaran... perhaps that's a sign of what's to come.

I hope we can reward your patience.

 

 

I guess Lasso is pretty busy at the moment earning a living by racing Paradox in the Caribbean. If you have looked at the g4 thread he has been quoted on there.

Probably a bit busy to do updates here.

 

Potter, I have read the G4 threads in both the Multihull & Sailing forums. I did know that Paul was on Paradox. However, Paul has not been racing on Paradox since November when he said he would post a lengthy update (see the larso post on 18 Nov 2014 in this thread).

 

People are just trying to get an update from Paul, even if it takes a bit of goading to do it.

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Thats assuming he has logged on and read the goading.

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There is a new update in the banner on Sailrocket's web page.

27/4/15 Mk3 model "Brenda2" demonstrates un-assisted self righting capability.

 

I didn't find any new information posts, there was just the banner update.

post-106106-0-09594600-1430226568_thumb.png

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There is a new update in the banner on Sailrocket's web page.

 

27/4/15 Mk3 model "Brenda2" demonstrates un-assisted self righting capability.

 

I didn't find any new information posts, there was just the banner update.

 

Does that mean they flipped it? Or was this an intentional test?

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Starving for news!

 

Paul Larsen said he'd update us last November, but we're still waiting. Whatever they are doing, they're keeping it to themselves.

 

We just need to be patient. I'm sure it will be worth the wait. Having said that, I do check the SailRocket site daily.

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Any web cams there?

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Very cool, but IMHO they need to put some suspension on the front float to get more speed out of the boat. It would probably give a much more controllable and comfortable ride too.

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Larso, the fundamental problem is control. All other problems are simple, with small contributions to cost/weight/performance.

 

The limits to sailrocket performance is control. You need a very narrow ramge of conditions, because the control response (bandwidth) of the SR system is very limited. What are you doing to address this?

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I've been so inspired by the Sailrocket team's work. With the tantalizing promise of an SR2 run in Weymouth this past week, my interest in the company came around again. I thought I would knock together a model of what an SR3 might look like.

 

Features:

  • Proa configuration, There is a rudder at each end for shunting.
  • Fully lowerable rigid wing for storms, could be brought to vertical for light stuff
  • LOA 36", Beam 36", Outrigger LOA 18"
  • 4" headroom
  • Sharpie HullsRD5dNYs.jpg

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There would need to be some interesting rigging to allow the wing and all the control lines to be shunted. What do you think the overall beam would need to be for this to work, and would you have a tramp between the two hulls?

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There would need to be some interesting rigging to allow the wing and all the control lines to be shunted. What do you think the overall beam would need to be for this to work, and would you have a tramp between the two hulls?

 

Organizing the rig to work both ways has been used on Polynesian Proas for 100's of years .. More interesting to me is how do you arrange the hydrofoils to work backwards and forwards?

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There would need to be some interesting rigging to allow the wing and all the control lines to be shunted. What do you think the overall beam would need to be for this to work, and would you have a tramp between the two hulls?

 

 

 

There would need to be some interesting rigging to allow the wing and all the control lines to be shunted. What do you think the overall beam would need to be for this to work, and would you have a tramp between the two hulls?

 

Organizing the rig to work both ways has been used on Polynesian Proas for 100's of years .. More interesting to me is how do you arrange the hydrofoils to work backwards and forwards?

 

Tunnel Rat: The model is set up so the center of effort of the wing passes directly through the center of effort of the board when rig is canted at 30 degrees. Current beam is 36, but the board would stick outboard to windward like sailrocket's does.

 

Terry: I have two options for the foil. It could be either a symmetric dagger board that pivots to face the other direction, or a board similar to the proa designs where it is simply flat on one side, and symmetrical camber on the windward side. I've heard this referred to as "ogive section" is that the correct term?MkLxY1L.jpg

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If you want to make a reverse flow direction foil, which is symmetrical transversally rather than longitudinally, you'd better look at the work by Tom Speer on proa foils:

 

http://www.basiliscus.com/ProaSections/ProaIndex.html

 

Much better than "crude" ogive sections; at least, that's what the CFD says.

 

By the way, the center of effort will NOT be smack in the middle of the foil; it will still be around 25% of the chord length, from the (current) lading edge.

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An ogive works well as a fixed foil, poorly as a rudder. There is some footage of a fixed ogive foiling at http://harryproa.com/?p=424. The foil is 300mm wide, inclined at ~45 degrees and is lifting about 180 kgs at ~12 knots. All the kite loads are on the other hull, so the foil is doing all the lifting work. The foil finish and tip treatment is best described as rough, which is part of the explanation for the separation.

 

In hull rudders on a high speed boat in this day and age are a race ending collision waiting for a place to happen. They must kick up in a collision. Rotating rudders in cases are also a disaster as, unless the cases are overlength, they can only be raised while sailing in one direction.

 

For 20 odd years of proa rudder experiments, check out the archives on the yahoo harryproa chat group.

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Hey Rob! Honored to have you in this thread. I'm having trouble getting a condensed view of the rudder experimentation on the yahoo group. Can you make a recommendation for this project? I'm particularly drawn to the custom 20m Harry and Bucketlist's style of rudders. Do you feel that such rudders must be mounted on the beams? can they be moved farther fore and aft? In this application I feel we will need a separate lateral resistance foil to oppose the wing...

 

Big Questions:

To ensure storm safety, the wing can be fully lowered parallel to the beams. What does everyone think of the system I came up with for raising and lowering?

 

The mod 70 has a beam of 50' to it 70' length and ~90' mast. This Bernard Smith concept relies on the center of effort of the wing and foil aligning as seen in this Image https://www.realisedesign.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Sail-Rocket-Front-view-01-630x459.jpg

This requires an extremely wide beam. In the case of this model, the center of effort of the wing is at 30% of its height. To make the center of efforts align, the wing height to beam length ratio is 1:1, a 36' Wing, 36' Beam. In addition the center board must stick out an additional 10' to make the centers of effort align at this scale.

 

What do you make of this? Can an ocean going multi effectively be that wide? To match a mod 70 in mast height, thats a 90' beam!!!!

 

Lets assume we cannot match this mast height (and thus beam).Then we must assume that we have less sail area. Although the mast on this model can be stood up to vertical we still are limited in light airs. Thoughts?

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No condensed rudder story, sorry. Any questions, let me know.

 

For your model I would think about a small, removable, kick up rudder on each end and an externally mounted lifting foil on the long hull. Maybe movable along the hull or 2 of them. Ideally, incorporating leeway resistance. It would be fairly easy to alter angles of cant and incidence if the foil(s) were supported by the beam and hull.

Not sure how your rig raising/lowering works, but if the pvc tube in your model was amidships and a little taller, you could tie the mast to the top of it at boom level and control the rig's rake and cant with lines from the bottom of the mast to the deck. Makes shunting easier too. The control over coe given by this set up would require very small rudders.

Width on a shunting boat is much less of a concern than on a tacker, but there are still structural and convenience limits. The leeway reducer has to be a long way to windward, the hull doesn't. There are numerous ways to achieve this.

Suspect the actual coe will be higher than 30% once turbulence at sea level is considered.

For light air, save weight. The long hull does very little apart from containing the crew and supporting the foils and rudders. You won't need many crew, they won't need much comfort. One beam instead of two and a lower, narrower and shorter (assuming the foils work) ww hull.

If you really want to go fast, eliminate 95% of the long hull and the beams and replace the rig with a kite.

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To ensure storm safety, the wing can be fully lowered parallel to the beams.

 

What do you make of this? Can an ocean going multi effectively be that wide? To match a mod 70 in mast height, thats a 90' beam!!!!

 

Lowering the rig would also take away one source of stability, so you might not want to do that. And that wing would be where waves can hit it.

 

One issue with the wide beam is that you get balanced helm only on one course relative to apparent wind. Think of the sail's force vector when looking at the boat from above. Does it pass through the foil that provides most of your lateral resistance? Find a course for which it does, then change course by a few degrees and see what happens.

 

You can solve that problem by variable geometry. I know of three basic configurations:

1) Proa with a long single beam that swings around a vertical axis on the windward hull, with the inclined rig leeward. Stability decreases as the beam swings further from the 90 degree position. Go too far and you capsize like Guy Delage's Rosieres at the start of the Route du Rhum 1986.

2) Imagine Sailrocket 2 with a wing that can either rotate 180 degrees around its inclined axis, or an asymmetric wing that rotates like a Gibbons rig. Take the forward part of Sailrocket 2's windward hull and mirror it around the beam, so you have a proa of sorts. Steer the boat by rotating the planing hulls. Drawback is that if you go fast enough for the presently forward hull and its associated rudder to leave water while going over a wave, the boat may fall off quite violently. Using a suspension might reduce that tendency, perhaps down to practical levels. The superstructure would shunt like a proa, but those short hulls that carry the boat would wear around like a square rigger.

3) Replace that proa hull by a more conventional hull with permanent bow and stern, perhaps flying on foils. Think of David Duncan's Swing-Sail ( on a beam long enough that the whole boat is non-heeling, and with a support hull under the rig for when there is not enough wind to lift it. Stability when gybing might be interesting, as would what happens to that beam the moment you take power off the rig while gybing and there is still drag from the lee hull.

 

In options 1 and 3 the angle of the beam to the hull would interact with rolling induced by waves. Might not matter if the boat is assumed to lift the leeward hull out of the water. Options 1 and 3 would be consistent with the reported self-righting ability of the model. A proa with Bradfield-style T-foils (like the Moths use) for rudders could also fly. Shunts would be slower than the wearing around of option 2, but might be safer than gybing option 3.

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Hey Paul, I hope this amazing Jules Verne challenge we are watching is getting you and any prospective sponsors fired up. Any updates?

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Me too, But we probably need to get Christmas and the new year over and the JVR over also. Whatever happens there Loicks record is still good so far. SR3 update asap in the new year Paul. Please. Cheers all.

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Day of the Clipper

 

"Sailing ships and sailing men will sail the open waters where the only thing that matters is the wind inside the main. So all you loving mother keep your eyes upon your daughters, for the sails will mend their tatters and the masts will rise again." -Schooner fare

 

"The most important game of your life is the next one." -my high school basketball coach

 

"If something is worth doing, it is worth doing right." -my Dad

 

 

 

Paul, this is a little inspiration for you the next time you visit. Keep going. The M*A be with you.

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Been looking the past few days for any new info on any of the G-Class boats that have been talked about. There has been ZERO new info regarding Gitana since around August (no mention of the project on the Gitana page.... it seems like there used to be a mention), nothing I could find new for Banque Populaire, nothing regarding Lending Tree.

 

Come on, Paul, give us something! I would love to hear how/if any of these projects had any re-thinking of how to do things after watching the Idec / Spindrift match race around the world.

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Been looking the past few days for any new info on any of the G-Class boats that have been talked about. There has been ZERO new info regarding Gitana since around August (no mention of the project on the Gitana page.... it seems like there used to be a mention), nothing I could find new for Banque Populaire, nothing regarding Lending Tree.

 

Come on, Paul, give us something! I would love to hear how/if any of these projects had any re-thinking of how to do things after watching the Idec / Spindrift match race around the world.

Banque Populaire is under construction as is Gitana there are a few photos BP IX in it's early stages of construction on their twitter feed https://twitter.com/voilebanquepop . The Gitana team recently sold their MOD70 test bed to Giovanni Soldini.

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...all fun and games until someone hits a sunfish :mellow:

 

 

e44a6f32e15cb53ee479b2697e759e2e_XL.jpg

Marstrom is proud to be partner in manufacturing the real breakthrough sailing vessel ever conceived: V_REX. Created by the visionary mind of Peter Steinkogler (CEO of GodSpeed – www.godspeed.at), V_REX is a patented foiling-sailing-flying vessel designed to exceed the speed of 60 knots and is maneuvered like an aircraft.

V_REX is a crossing point between a sail-foiling vessel, a formula 1 monocoque and an aircraft. This innovative concept has generated an incredible high interest on the market, the production of the first prototype is planned in the coming months, stay tuned.

 

Contact us for more info

 

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....yeah or a container. Would be nice to see it in action though. Wonder if they released their fools day joke too early ;)

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You know what's going to happen now, don't you?

I know jajaja

 

10,9,8,.....

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You know what's going to happen now, don't you?

 

I know jajaja

10,9,8,.....
If one of you fuckers says his name 3 times, you owe this thread a case of good rum.

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Does anyone else here compulsively google sailrocket 3 while compulsively making small models of force aligned proas or flip tackers or canting mast trimarans or some other dream of a force aligned sailing vessel?

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