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NacramanUK

New UK built and designed UK foiling cat......

78 posts in this topic

Met the guy who built and sails that the other weekend, if what he's saying is true (have no reason to believe otherwise) it's a very impressive machine... Didn't get a chance to see it in action unfortunately

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Would've been interesting to see it sail past the moth when they were foilng as well.

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Any online specs? Material, weights etc?

It weighs 75kg!.....

 

More details on material spec, sail area, etc coming very soon......

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question;

 

If you are going to sail with 2# main t-foils, do you need 2# rudders? [Halve the drag by just having 1# central rudder]

 

 

Another question;

 

 

Can a cat that sails on 1# J foil and 2# rudders get more power down because of the fact that the crew weight is about 3 meters to windward of the main foil [ The 2# T foil boat has to sail upright with the crew weight closer to the center of rotation]?

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question;

 

If you are going to sail with 2# main t-foils, do you need 2# rudders? [Halve the drag by just having 1# central rudder]

 

 

Another question;

 

 

Can a cat that sails on 1# J foil and 2# rudders get more power down because of the fact that the crew weight is about 3 meters to windward of the main foil [ The 2# T foil boat has to sail upright with the crew weight closer to the center of rotation]?

One rudder - Two floats with foils. Either you invented something new here or this is called a trimaran.

 

Are 3 or 4 foils more efficient? I guess it depends on board control. This new cat is a real mystery:

- are there wands controlling the main foils?

- is the light platform stiff enough to support some extra righting moment from the windward foil?

- how are the foils controlled?

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question;

 

If you are going to sail with 2# main t-foils, do you need 2# rudders? [Halve the drag by just having 1# central rudder]

 

 

Another question;

 

 

Can a cat that sails on 1# J foil and 2# rudders get more power down because of the fact that the crew weight is about 3 meters to windward of the main foil [ The 2# T foil boat has to sail upright with the crew weight closer to the center of rotation]?

One rudder - Two floats with foils. Either you invented something new here or this is called a trimaran.

 

Are 3 or 4 foils more efficient? I guess it depends on board control. This new cat is a real mystery:

- are there wands controlling the main foils?

- is the light platform stiff enough to support some extra righting moment from the windward foil?

- how are the foils controlled?

 

I see controlling wands after the main foils in the light wind testing movies

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question;

 

If you are going to sail with 2# main t-foils, do you need 2# rudders? [Halve the drag by just having 1# central rudder]

 

 

Another question;

 

 

Can a cat that sails on 1# J foil and 2# rudders get more power down because of the fact that the crew weight is about 3 meters to windward of the main foil [ The 2# T foil boat has to sail upright with the crew weight closer to the center of rotation]?

One rudder - Two floats with foils. Either you invented something new here or this is called a trimaran.

 

Are 3 or 4 foils more efficient? I guess it depends on board control. This new cat is a real mystery:

- are there wands controlling the main foils?

- is the light platform stiff enough to support some extra righting moment from the windward foil?

- how are the foils controlled?

I find a better movie from a testing without a mast, you can see the foil controls

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Very impressive. Any details available?

 

Who is the designer/builder? Why T foils? Is there elevator control on the water? Does the windward foil produce down force at a certain ride height?

 

Awesome project and exciting to see people trying something other than the L-foil leeway-heave coupling approach.

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Had a long chat with the designer/builder today.......more information coming very soon with respect to construction of the final production version including spec.........but just to let you know all up sailing weight is 75kgs of the prototype......with final production version very much less.......

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take of speed downwind is 4 knots......upwind 6 knots.....



and has already run it aground at close to 20 knots with no damage.....

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awesome looking machine, I love the slight iwndward heal, just looks very locked in on the foils, So this moth style wand set up looks to give great ride control as you would expect.

More drag than the Phantom/AC 72/nacra 20 style leward board?

 

or maybe not, I can see the moth style heal upwind makign plenty of sense.

 

it is great watching this development, obviously the moth has been around for years and has infuluenced this setup greatly, awesome work.

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18ft long, 75kg? Hmmm sounds (and looks) familiar. Do you need two crew because of the lowered righting moment of twin main foils, or does it have twin wands to keep windward hull at a constant height?

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From the designer/builder.....

 

"the hull is carbon sandwich with kevlar carbon aramid in impact areas.

It has a 9.5m carbon wing mast with 16 square meters of sail and a roller furling gennaker the size of which is still to be determined. the rig loads are taken through the bowsprit. the production version is a single component monocoque with stress mapped fiber layup"
More info to follow.......

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And here is a video of Grant Piggott (my business partner) sailing the Whisper (his very first attempt at foiling!)........and there was bugger all wind!......

 

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Mighty impressive! Ease of sailing(foiling) is NAILED on this boat and Micheles little foiler. This is a hit! I'm assuming the boards are retractable....right?

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But Doug. I thought you said that having both foils down wasn't the way to go! ;)

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Does all this full size foiling start to make Dougs little model start to look like a bit of a non event? With all of the thousands of posts about the techo side of things it looks as if loads of others are just out there doing it.

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doug at least proves to have an open mind to other solutions, and is also interested in understand the functioning, is a quality that few here have.

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It depends, doesn't Simon? New boats who aren't shackled by ridiculous rules are going to have ease of sailing as a priority. The two boats I mentioned do that exceptionally well.

 

 

But Doug. I thought you said that having both foils down wasn't the way to go! ;)

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Does all this full size foiling start to make Dougs little model start to look like a bit of a non event? With all of the thousands of posts about the techo side of things it looks as if loads of others are just out there doing it.

 

That is one of the most absurd comments I've yet read. Way to go, Basil!

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and has already run it aground at close to 20 knots with no damage.....

 

 

On what did he run it aground.... a soggy mass of cotton balls? Come-on UK... this is starting to sound like a DL entry that is 99% hype and little else, save for vapor. Get a better anecdotal report complete with imagery and some sort of substantiation.

 

Of course, nobody has once mentioned the out-the-door sailing price. At these weights, it has to be astronomical and as more and more of the Me-too fellas leap to have their own version of this kind of boat, the available market just shrinks and shrinks. If you are going to sell these boats, UK, you better get yourself a new pair of running shoes to try to find the folks who have that kind of disposable income.

 

.

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Just to clarify the boards fully retract flush to the the hull surface so the boat can be launched in the same depth of water as a standard displacement catamaran........the foiling boards have both angle of attack and ride height 'on the fly' adjustment........rudders also are fully retractable and also have 'on the fly' trim adjustment similar to a moth.......final sail area of jib, main and furling gennaker (which hasn't been required so far as it has such a early take of speed).......the hulls and beams will be a monocoque style construction on the production boat.......first production boats will be ready for delivery in January 2015........

 

 

 

and has already run it aground at close to 20 knots with no damage.....

 

 

On what did he run it aground.... a soggy mass of cotton balls? Come-on UK... this is starting to sound like a DL entry that is 99% hype and little else, save for vapor. Get a better anecdotal report complete with imagery and some sort of substantiation.

 

Of course, nobody has once mentioned the out-the-door sailing price. At these weights, it has to be astronomical and as more and more of the Me-too fellas leap to have their own version of this kind of boat, the available market just shrinks and shrinks. If you are going to sell these boats, UK, you better get yourself a new pair of running shoes to try to find the folks who have that kind of disposable income.

 

.

Hi Chris O.....off course it does not surprise me that you doubt this boat validity.....I wouldn't expect any less :) .....but have you not viewed the videos Chris?

 

This boat has been designed to be not the out and out fastest foiler (although it has already shown itself to be very very fast) , but the simplest to use and as such this has already dictated the final production foil design and will also dictate the final sail area based on the current daily sea trials....

 

 

Just to clarify, he ran aground in to a sandbank, so ok it's not concrete but who sail into concrete!..............and I do believe you will be gobsmacked at the retail price which will be finalised in the next 3 to 4 weeks........

 

 

Now I know you may doubt everything about the details of the boat, but by all means Chris O pm me for more info on the designer and his marine architect cv....

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This foiler is one of the most user friendly with tons of stability comparing to other foilers. Maybe not a speed record braker, but who cares if is that stable, easy to handle and setup.

P.S i wish to see this piece of joy out there and make a selling success.

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I really appreciate all the enthusiasm people put in developing foiling and foiling cats. But where are all the foiling beasts that should have been delivered according to the manufacturers promises? I can not find a single video in the web from a private individual foiling around.

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I really appreciate all the enthusiasm people put in developing foiling and foiling cats. But where are all the foiling beasts that should have been delivered according to the manufacturers promises? I can not find a single video in the web from a private individual foiling around.

...........and maybe the tape will last long enough to cover a tack or a gybe. I should imagine that some of the FP owners are getting the hang of it by now

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I really appreciate all the enthusiasm people put in developing foiling and foiling cats. But where are all the foiling beasts that should have been delivered according to the manufacturers promises? I can not find a single video in the web from a private individual foiling around.

Right around the corner in the A Class Fail thread :

 

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=155220&p=4625594

 

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Hi Chris O.....off course it does not surprise me that you doubt this boat validity.....I wouldn't expect any less :) .....but have you not viewed the videos Chris?

 

 

I do not doubt the validity, UK, just the hype that far precedes the actual reality of the necessary elements... such as pricing. The boat will speak for itself, but wow! nothing like chumming the waters and having no hooks to set in a real way. ... and yes, I have seen the clips.

 

 

Just to clarify, he ran aground in to a sandbank, so ok it's not concrete but who sail into concrete!..............and I do believe you will be gobsmacked at the retail price which will be finalised in the next 3 to 4 weeks........

 

 

Yes, UK, comedy does rely on extremes to make its points, does it not? Maybe not so much concrete, but certainly rocks, oyster beds forgotten underwater obstacles, etc. and those do bring with them certain, shall we say, immovable realities when struck at speed. Just put the info out there sans hyperbole and let the gang decide for themselves. There's really nothing nearly as good about the function of a new boat as showing the issues both good and not so good, so that the consumer can make a reasoned, informed decision. If the design really does work as advertised, then it will show itself in a critical examination of facts... not hype. Don't we already have enough hype in this world of ours? I'm of the opinion that an honest presentation is not only fair and honorable, but actually refreshing and can be a real solid position from which to argue the sales potential.

 

 

Now I know you may doubt everything about the details of the boat, but by all means Chris O pm me for more info on the designer and his marine architect cv....

 

 

I'll do that.

 

To clear the table of assumption; I do not doubt the veracity of the product. I do, however, object to the suggestions of stuff in an attempt to make it look better than it is. Foils are very delicate instruments and as such, they depend, almost entirely, on that precious leading edge for a good deal of their effectiveness. While I'm sure that the hyperbole is well-intended in most cases, it also creates an air of invincibility that just isn't truthful at all. If one goes bashing about on this ride, then it will lose its ability to deliver that which makes it special. That ought to make for an interesting conversation should they come back to you for an explanation as to surviving a grounding intact and functional.

 

.

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Please remember Chris this isn't a Nacra (that I sell for a so called living).......my enthusiasm is based on some very long discussions with the designer and the practical experience of all those who have had a sail of it.......I have pm'd my phone numbers to you and I am happy to discuss the science and numbers at length at your convenience...I also know he would be happy to chat to you personally about the science.......but be prepared to eat humble pie in large doses.....

 

Please don't be so negative about the information I have supplied on this forum so far as I always try to deal with facts rather than opinions.......

 

Regards,

NacramanUK

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So, there "a" designer? It says on youtube that it is a university project. It seems like a very cool thing to do at school.

Is it one of the universities paid for by the state, or one that a student has to pay for?

Also what is a monocoque hull? No sandwich? That weight is pretty crazy. Seems odd that some one could shave that much off current weights, as there looks to be more components and width than an A, but the same or lighter weight.

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Plenty of foiling cats you can order to be built right now, the improvements from 1st generation to 2nd generation will make these 1st gen boats more attainable for the masses in time

Boyer was making 70kg, glass, A classes that could handle 130kg crew weight, nearly 30 years ago that are still going strong today, I'm keeping an open mind

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I can just about believe the 75kgs all up weight, but the only way of getting it down from there would be the use of very expensive materials and construction techniques.

 

Taking the weight as being the same as an A, it looks like the boat is very similar dimensions. Set aside platform weight for one moment, most of the other components will need to be stronger/heavier. The mast needs to support a jib, kite and an extra person on the wire, so that is heavier than an A. The sails will be heavier, because of the jib and kite never mind the likelihood that you would specify heavier sailcloth because of the increased loads of a 2 hander. Then you have the bowsprit and the kite furling gear. Finally, the foils will need to be stronger/heavier than an A because of increased loads.

 

All told, I find it hard to see how all the ancillary items won't add at least 5kgs to the weight compared with an A. That means that the platform is going to need to be at least 5 kgs less than an A. I do believe that is achievable, but to get lower than that would start to need serious exotics, such as hi-modulus carbon or even nano technologies. We are then beginning to talk very serious prices. So, IMO, 75kgs is possible at a stretch but if the price point is to be sensible, don't expect to see the weight any lower.

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Chris,

 

Your issues with running aground can apply to any boat, existing large fleets like F18's and A-Cats and Moths. A little epoxy can fix a leading edge in an evening, trailing edges can be harder to repair (and are just as critical in a cambered lifting foiling) but still a quick job. I'm more worried about the issues simon reports regarding weight and associated daggerboard well strength (those are more painful to fix but still an evening event).

 

Still, the boat is up and flying and in light winds, reporting great speeds and at 75kg is great for a double handed boat. Eagerly awaiting the price sheet!!!

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Oh, Simon, there are modern construction techniques that can keep the weight low and not resort to super exotic materials...just need more expensive tooling and some out of the box thinking.

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Problem is for small projects like this complicated tooling will drive up the price faster than exotic materials especially where they cant be confident of selling a lot of product.

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Oh, Simon, there are modern construction techniques that can keep the weight low and not resort to super exotic materials...just need more expensive tooling and some out of the box thinking.

And you think they aren't being used on A's?

 

And as Scarecrow suggests, there are many ways to skin a cat but at the end of the day, if you chase weight savings on something which is very light already, it is going to add to the costs. Think about it. Overall, it has to be lighter and stronger than an A in most areas and equal in the others.

 

Having said all of that, it looks a great boat, but I will be very surprised if the production version comes out at less than 75kgs and it sells for a decent price. And looking at the videos, why would you need to spend money to make it lighter when it foils so well in light breezes anyway.

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The flying phantom is 155kg, and is 2' wider, 4" longer.

The 2 front sails and the second person will add weight for other reasons too; the bows will want to pull together and must be made stronger than an A, there's all the hardware to trim the jib and spi, there's hardware for the second person to be in the trapeze.

The team that made this boat must have come up with some cool ways of saving weight to do half the weight of an FP.

 

if monocoque means no sandwich in the hulls then the weight savings down to 65kg would be from using less material in the hulls and could actually being a cost savings.

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Your issues with running aground can apply to any boat, existing large fleets like F18's and A-Cats and Moths. A little epoxy can fix a leading edge in an evening, trailing edges can be harder to repair (and are just as critical in a cambered lifting foiling) but still a quick job. I'm more worried about the issues simon reports regarding weight and associated daggerboard well strength (those are more painful to fix but still an evening event).

 

Still, the boat is up and flying and in light winds, reporting great speeds and at 75kg is great for a double handed boat. Eagerly awaiting the price sheet!!!

 

 

After all this time, Sam, I think I have a good idea as to how a grounding effects an appendage... but we weren't talking about other boats and UK never mentioned them in his presentation. You don't make the issue go away by being inclusive, especially when the topic was very exclusive. But, I think you knew that already.

 

As to a foiler being seriously damaged by a grounding compared to another, more conventional ride... unless the board just flat-out breaks off and is unusable, it will still sail in a very close fashion to what it did prior to the event. Yeah, it's dinged-up, but it still will function after a fashion. BUT.... with a foiler and a destroyed leading, or as you also indicate, trailing edge, it flat-out stops foiling. When it is sold as a foiler and it doesn't do that, what's the point? Sounds like a lot of cash for a boat that is ineffectual when it comes to its principal design objective. Maybe you have another take on that, and if so... I sure would like to hear it.

 

I've seen foilers come off their foils due to a plastic bag wrapped on the leading edge, so imagine what is going to happen when one of them hits a coral head at speed. It is the Achilles Heel of the foiling boat and its been known for years that there is no real solution. I guess you could buy a couple of sets of blades for each side of the boat and always have one ready for just such an event... if you want to keep foiling. That sounds like real cash to me. It's the price you pay for wanting to have the coolest new shit.

 

.

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The flying phantom is 155kg, and is 2' wider, 4" longer.

The 2 front sails and the second person will add weight for other reasons too; the bows will want to pull together and must be made stronger than an A, there's all the hardware to trim the jib and spi, there's hardware for the second person to be in the trapeze.

The team that made this boat must have come up with some cool ways of saving weight to do half the weight of an FP. Not really. As I said above, if you take the A as a starting point seeing how similar they are in platform and rig size, it isn't that much of a stretch to get to 75 kgs.

 

if monocoque means no sandwich in the hulls then the weight savings down to 65kg would be from using less material in the hulls and could actually being a cost savings.

Besides the fact it says carbon sandwich above, you could not build a single skin boat anywhere near light enough. It doesn't matter what material you use, thickness equals stiffness. Without sandwich material, the thickness and therefore weight of carbon needed to get to the same stiffness would be way in excess of the weight of the removed sandwich.

Monocoque probably means that it is built with no bulkheads in a one piece moulding process, which is what Marstrom used to do with their A's. The weight saved by not having to join the parts together plus not having bulkheads is added to the laminate and makes a very good boat if you know how to design the laminate properly. It explains how they get it to 75kgs, but I still think less will be tough.

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OMG imagine if all boats had to be made for the worst economies and sceptical of pundits? Would we still be using horse glue onto timber... oh wait any deviation from that is unviable, as noted by our esteemed box boat specialist commentator. Even at 100kg at the right price point this would work well and maybe even stay as a foiler entry class, until someone comes up with something cheaper & different, just like the Laser had such a short shelf life against all the new single handed skiffs launched during the 90s. :)

+1 .....

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I have lost the plot of what you guys are talking about-lasers and such.

Was just typing that the weight is pretty amazing at half of an FP, which seems to be a pretty fast boat.

Then speculating that to get the weight down further materials will most like need to be subtracted from the formula.

 

monocoque |ˈmänəˌkōk, -ˌkäk|
noun
an aircraft or vehicle structure in which the chassis is integral with the body.
ORIGIN early 20th cent.: from French, from mono- ‘single’ + coque ‘shell.’

also there is no clear relationship between the word and various types of cat hull build processes.

hang on, maybe the beams and hulls will be molded as one piece. That could possibly save 10kg.

 

 

anyway the project is exciting. Would love to have gone to that school where they worked on it.

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monocoque |ˈmänəˌkōk, -ˌkäk|

noun

an aircraft or vehicle structure in which the chassis is integral with the body.

ORIGIN early 20th cent.: from French, from mono- ‘single’ + coque ‘shell.’

also there is no clear relationship between the word and various types of cat hull build processes.

hang on, maybe the beams and hulls will be molded as one piece. That could possibly save 10kg.

Seriously, are you just dismissing what i have already posted? The concept of monocoque in cats isn't exactly new. First, there is the idea of no "chassis", which in the case of a boat are the bulkheads and which . And what you get literally is a "single shell" with no joins. It does save weight. On an A, which is the same size as this project, it's worth about 5-7kgs, although the only builder that I know of who used it (Marstrom) reinvested that weight saving in building a stronger boat. I am not sure that it would be possible to mold the beams and hulls in one piece for a number of reasons, but it's an interesting idea. However, it's clear not been done on this boat.

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"Seriously, are you just dismissing what i have already posted?"

Not dismissing just offering a different theory. The re-engineered, lighter boat that i am speculating about doesn't exist yet. Therefore looking at the one that does exist won't necessarily answer questions about the newer model.

Airplanes have bulkheads and cars have a fire wall which is like a bulkhead. I think most 18' cat hulls are monocoque except for old wooden ones that actually skin a series of frames.

Also i was incapable of imagining a 1 piece mold for a cat hull. How would you get the part out, if the mold did not consist of pieces which could later be opened up to remove the part?

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Please note that my description was a monocoque "style" construction which (as mentioned by others) has certainly been done in the past. To clarify, this is looking at construction of hulls and beams as not being individually manufacture components i.e. each hull being made in 2+ parts(and then bonded together) and then joined together by 2 individually constructed beams (whether that be an ali or carbon beams), but as a much simpler two mold construction of the entire platform (at top mold and bottom mold).

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By the way......despite sending Chris O both my landline number and mobile number with the offer of discussing the project in detail as well as the designers/project leaders cv and backround (to long winded to put into a pm or post) I have not heard a thing from him........does he have a phone?.....perhaps phones are just a fad that will pass with time?

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UK,

 

One word - Impressive.

 

The light air performance and stability are simple amazing. Have you tested the boat in conditions greater than 15+kts with any waves?

 

Btw: placing Chris O and Doug on 'ignore' is probable going to save you a lot of headaches.

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Excellent! Thanks.....

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Interesting stuff-looks like they were testing how close to the surface they could get before the drag was too much? Was that the rudder foil or are they moving the whole main foil instead of using a flap?

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While I think the Whisper appears to be a very interesting boat, the claim of a "revolutionary new hydrofoil system", on the face of it, seems a bit over the top. Dr. Sam Bradfield is the modern pioneer of the application of wand based systems to multihulls-mainly trimarans. But Steve Killing designed the C Class "Rocker" using dual independent wand systems and there was at least one other cat using wands before him. But, there may be more than meets the eye in this incarnation of a wand based catamaran foiler and I look forward to learning more about it.

 

Picture from Yachts and Yachting/ onEdition:

post-30-0-96226600-1410642459_thumb.jpg

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While I think the Whisper appears to be a very interesting boat, the claim of a "revolutionary new hydrofoil system", on the face of it, seems a bit over the top. Dr. Sam Bradfield is the modern pioneer of the application of wand based systems to multihulls-mainly trimarans. But Steve Killing designed the C Class "Rocker" using dual independent wand systems and there was at least one other cat using wands before him. But, there may be more than meets the eye in this incarnation of a wand based catamaran foiler and I look forward to learning more about it.

 

Picture from Yachts and Yachting/ onEdition:

Please remember the report is written by a journalist Doug, rather than the designer!........have no dispute of the origins of wand control, but do strongly believe that how the Whisper boards autonomous trailing wands are used is based on a different bit of applied science and as such is quite radical......also the science behind the final platform construction also takes a quite different route.......Please remember the platform currently being used is to test the foil and control systems theories and come in a all up ready to sail boat weight of 78kgs. The final all up sailing weight of the production version will come in at closer to 65kg's......

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Well, I'm very interested in learning more of the details.

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Trailing edge wands were tried by John Ilett at the 2005 Moth Worlds and quickly dicarded. They apparently worked on the smooth waters of the Swan River in Perth but failed dissmally in the rougher water of Port Phillip Bay. No one has tried them on a moth since, in fact John and others have tried extending the wand base forward of the hull on sprits with greater success. In moth terms at least there seems to be an advantage if the wand feels the water ahead and anticipates the flap resonse in advance.

 

The Glide Free Laser foils also use the trailing edge wand and while I am assured by the promoters that they work fine I have not yet seen a set in operation.

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Any news on this? Been quiet for a while.

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Nacraman UK the boat looks great, very impressive :)

 

Would love to have a go, am I right that this can be sailed single handed? and will there be one at the Dinghy Show ?

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Where are we at with pricing and production availability?

 

 

I'm very concerned about the boat not being able to foil after I destroy the foils on rocks/coral. Perhaps include anti-dipshit pills?

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Do you hit rocks and coral with your current boat?

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Do you hit rocks and coral with your current boat?

I think it was the anti-dipshit pills he was referring to in this case.

 

Had your top up lately?

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Any price yet? or do I have to read every post to find out?

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Any price yet? or do I have to read every post to find out?

Around GBPound 18,000 not including tax or shipping

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Wow. Not a cheap toy is it? I come up with about $29k US.

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Spankin new F-18s are running 22+

 

 

 

 

There's 2 kinds of sailers. Tthose that have run aground, and those that will.

I've got broken carbon to verify which I am... unfortunately

 

 

The point was... IF you break something on your boat... you fix or replace it.

Not a write off on my F boat or with this boat. And i'm not going to avoid a product because I might break it. "Better not buy anything, because it'll be broken if I break it."

There is no distinction between dinged up foils, if you ding your foils, you sail straight to DFL.

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Happy New Year to all Anarchists.

 

& Congratulations for the Whisper design team

 

This awesome project sparks a trivial idea in my tiny brain:

 

The technology behing this smart boat could probably be put at full use with an A-Cat project , couldn't it ?

 

Best Regards

 

BW

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Not legally if you're including the foil system in "technology".

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It's not about the foils, but about the total weight, beam/hull construction probably ?

It's about their platform technology

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