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Roleur

Trailerable boat AND a great boat for racing to Hawaii?

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Post race pondering? We love our J/120, but we want to use it for cruising and we live in Texas, so the J is a big mother ship to trick out for both cruising and racing and locate in the right place throughout the year. We really need a trailerable race boat and just stick with fast cruising on the J.

 

But I cannot put my finger on the right boat. Moore's, SC27's, and E27's are out because of the fixed keel. Not practical for the trailering I have in mind. Something like a J/88 is way too expensive for a second boat. Really any new boat is probably too expensive.

 

The Ultimate 25, if that ever comes to reality?

 

Like the B-25 a lot, but it is dated, so the Left Coast Dart appeals, but even that is spendy for a second boat.

 

Guess I'm looking for another Wolfpack in sheeps clothing, with a lifting keel.

 

Ideas? Where is that one Sonic 30 (post Sonoma 30, pre Synergy 1000)?

 

Oh, the boat needs to be suitable for double-handing.

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Hobie 33 ticks all the boxes, and you can get a new one. I don't know if the new one comes with a lift keel or not.

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You need a ocean rated rig the Dart last I read was inland water rated only. Ultimate 24's exist would be a great double handed rig and youll probably end up putting the 120 in cruise mode and stick to racing the 24.

 

Antrim 27 but you may find it too sporty.

 

The full keel Moore 24, Express27 and Olson 30 are not bad to trailer or set up they are all deck stepped.

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Olson 30 is keel stepped so a little more difficult to rig. The Hobie 33 is deck stepped and you can find them with retractable keels which allows for easier towing. Although I'd have to say a Moore 24 vs H33 I'd go for the Moore just for ease of use and cost. The Olson is a great boat, obviously I'm a fan, I just don't think I'd want to tow mine around all the time.

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Ah! "Hooked" much?

 

I have a post-mortem report rattling around in my head but I'm still on the run after getting home on Tuesday. Immediately back to work on Wednesday due to a client issue, also a very sick dog (he just got back home this morning from the pet hospital) and our oldest daughter's wedding next weekend. I had one free day in Hawaii.

 

Apologies to Chris who was very kind to greet me at the Awards Party when I was really out of it. In retrospect, I should have sat this one out.

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Oh, and the best boat for racing SH or DH to Hawaii? J/92 of course!

 

Unless you stay under 3,300# (and KYC doesn't change their rules) you'll have to go through a yard anyway. J/92 weighs 5,500# and trailers okay for a fixed keel boat. It has a proper head and more room below than the others mentioned. We saw 15's several times once we got wind, so it's not slow either.

 

But I'm biased.

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Noone suggesting a Mini? Certainly on the costier side, but plenty smaller...

 

HW

And mini's are frickin wide. You have to cant them on a trailer to make them non permit road legal.

 

Antrim 27 or Express 27 depending on price or more/less sportification.Also the express 27 has one of the most badass doublehanded to hawaii stories- http://express27.org/articles/squallbusters

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My mini has a dropping/canting keel...

 

It is wide though, permit only here in Australia. You seppos seem to be able to drive or tow any old piece of crap on the road so a 10' wide mini should be no problem

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Most minis I've seen/read of (don't claim to have seen them all) have some sort of keel lift/drop system. They are wide though... What are the permits like in your part of the world?

 

HW

 

The only one I've seen on a trailer must be 12 feet tall. Fixed keel

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I may have found the perfect boat. Going to look at it tomorrow. Ticks all the boxes (even under 3300# Bob). I think it is exactly what I'm looking for.

 

Budget < $50k

 

I'll post details after I see it in person.

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If you're talking 50K to do the race: A lifting keel Hobie 33 is the best competitive boat. I've raced a Moore to Hawaii twice. A H33 about 1K off Cali coast. I've raced a FT-10 in SF and Diego and was a boat jake for one. (I also ran private race boats and private sailing yachts). A stock FT-10 would need a lot of up-grades/work. Quick boat, I like it. Many raced hard (ocean) down under. I like the Antrim 27, good pac cup history, albeit with very good crew.

 

If 50K just for the boat with lifting keel...(others seem to have reading comprehension worse than mine)... I'm not educated enough to give an "educated opinion" since I like to use personal experience or that of a few very knowledgeable friends.

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Having just finished a Pac Cup we have all the required gear that can be transferred to a new boat. A boat in good shape should only require a few new sails, an erudder, and some minor misc. Plus stuff we already have. $10-15k to get a boat very race ready.

 

I like and have considered all the options except the GP26 which is awesome, but a bit too spendy. Almost $100k to get it race ready.

 

The Antrim 27 appeals, but might be a bit too turbo for 2 people. Same for Synergy.

 

In order to do well, you have to be able to push the whole way. A big boat or wild boat requires throttling back and can't compete.

 

Read some of the Pac Cup blogs this year. Some of the top finishers refer to roundups per watch, wipeouts per hour, and back to back roundDOWNS. People are seriously on the edge at the pointy end of the fleet.

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Andrews 28 but because John hurt his back we couldn't show what she'd do on the Pac Cup. We'll see how we do on my Andrews in the Bermuda 1-2 next year.

Cheers, Greg

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Thought Left Hook hated the FT10? Or did that change when Bob gave him shit about it....

I'm waiting for the point where someone says "don't be stupid that can't cross the ocean" so I can have my AHa moment.

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I figured you would be cannibalizing Shearwater, but I was assuming shipping trailer and boat back for the 50K budget. Anyway...I'm assuming one of your major reasons for racing a smaller boat in the future is the potential to race it at near "100%" DH'ed.

Especially with your comments on the Antrim 27/Syn1000, I think the FT-10 would be too much as well. Any small light boat can be a "handful".

 

Keep in mind that you will pay costs for the manageability of the smaller size. Comfort can be a problem for some. Sleeping, cooking, navigating become harder. Also to be "full-out" one has to drive a lot if not all the time. Autopilots for small planning boats means you are not racing "100%" except for a few scenarios while racing to Hawaii. (Consider all the weight need to power it as well). Saving weight, I think is very important. I, like the Erkelens, didn't bring my auto for the Moore in '92, that, and other self imposed limitations allowed me to take one less battery.

 

On a flip side, consider the fact the squalls for most (all?) boats this year were more intense than usual. So the bar stories might have been more accurate! In racing the Moore twice, we rounded-down once. In '92 we rounded up 3 times (no-downs), only one needed both of us to recover, on the way to an elapsed time ~11d 18h. A fairly windy year with mostly moderate and some heavy squalls. I considered myself to be a "ballsy" decent, but not great downwind driver. We carried the same 3/4 oz chute, except for a 5' check, from hoist to douse, ~9 days... so it couldn't have been too bad!

 

 

For a very good opinion, talk to Jim Quanci, ~17 Hawaii races, 3 DH'ed on a Moore, Hobie and this year with his wife on their Cal 40. He has sailed with a lot of people with varying abilities and different types of boats with different "styles".

 

After all my BS, under the requirements you stated... my opinion is that I'm afraid that racing a smaller planning/ULDB boat may not improve your experience or out come. At least the first time! Of course there are a lot of worse things to do than racing to Hawaii. Doing well in the Pac Cup, like most things, requires a lot of prep, some skill(s) that allows one to take advantage of any luck that comes your way. (I did read most of your Pac Cup blog as well as many others.) I hope you guys do the race again!

 

Out of curiosity what kind of boat did you check out the day?

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Or he could quit fooling around - sell the house get a small condo with a dock back home where the 120 lives, and find a nice Cal 40 in SF and just focus on sailing be it back home or in SF/West coast. ;-)

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Frank, all great comments. Two things though, that were not mentioned, that are really driving this. First, it is tough to have a competive racer that is also a comfortable cruiser. We bought Shearwater to cruise. Pac Cup was just an incidental along the way because it was a fun way to get the boat to the PNW where we wanted it. Second, we want a boat here in Texas that we can sail regularly. If that boat is also then suitable for racing to Hawaii it is a bonus. Combine 1 & 2 and it makes sense to get a trailerable boat we can race to Hawaii. So, getting a smaller boat for racing to Hawaii isn't really the goal, just the outcome of other goals. Will we do better next time? Not really the point of the exercise.

 

Couple more thoughts regarding choice of boat for racing to Hawaii.

1. Hand-steering a boat with a wheel double-handed is really hard. You pretty much have to stand to steer downwind in a breeze on Shearwater. Standing up for 12 hours a day for 7-10 days is pretty low on the fun factor. I think any tiller boat wins on this point. On reflection, one of the biggest things we can do to do better would be to hand-steer more, so this is a big point.

2. ANY boat that we can sail on a lot will be a better boat for racing to Hawaii. Realistically we could at most sail Shearwater 40 days in the next two years, and that would likely involve a number of shitty weather or no wind days. A boat here in Texas would simply give us more tiller time and more time working on the finer details of driving, trimming, and setup. A lot of that would translate into sailing Shearwater better, but at that point, if the boat is suitable, why not just keep rolling with the small boat.

3. Chris & I started this whole saga 19 years ago when I bought a Sonoma 30 to race to Hawaii. That's how we met. The idea of racing to Hawaii on a small boat has always been on our minds. Racing Shearwater, again, just came down to timing. We had the boat and we wanted it on the West Coast, so why not? We didn't go into the race expecting to be competitive, only to do our best, with safety and fun coming ahead of trying hard. I think we accomplished that mission.

 

BH - I wish. Maybe in a few more years. Cal 40 though? Nope. Never happen. Great boat, but not my cup of tea.

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Roleur

 

The Ultimate 24 would be a fun choice, however having done the Pac Cup Olson 34.. The U24 would be a very bare bones fun Pac cup ride. I have many hours sailing and racing on #1 double handed with my buddy who owns it. At some point I could see us ending up boat partners on it down the road etc. OCSC has a high cut flat kite for it which we have used double handed out on coastal trips and just fooling around the SF Bay makes the boat super easy to handle in the high 20's. One of my best memories was surfing in through the GG double handed both of us drinking a beer enjoying the ride home while hitting 19's. The larger kite we would have maybe added a 2-3 knots max but it would have been full race mode no beer sort of sailing.

 

The Antrim 25 would be a U24 hull with an updated deck design to share some aspects of the Antrim 27 think Version 4.0 of the Canting deck level spin pole. However having raced the Antrim many times as crew and sailed the U24 I'd be totally fine with the fixed prod on the 24 and a couple of different cuts ie spinnaker shapes to work with. I've had to climb the U24 mast during a Delta Ditch many years ago only two of us on the boat our spin shackle popped open right at the start. Had to go to the top! the uppers at the mast fittings were at my shins while I recovered our halyard. We got back into the race and caught the other two U24's racing.

 

The U24 has a more mild manner than the Antrim, it has a little more bow shape/Boyancy where the Antrim starts to dig its nose and load up the U24 has this interesting hop effect where the bow will pop back up without too much work at the helm to get the nose to come up, vs the Antrim you need to really drive it much like the U20 which I raced and owned since the late 90's the bow on the U20 and A27 require the driver to really drive the boat so you can get the nose lifted up out of any holes behind the waves where as the U24 has much nicer handling nature and doesn't require as much nose management if you will. Also the U24 working loads are dramatically different than the A27 which makes a big difference in the double handed aspect.

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This is the boat I looked at yesterday:

 

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2000/Schumaker-28-2724249/Portland/OR/United-States

 

It's a Carl Schumacher 28. Basically a modern Express 27 with a lifting keel and much bigger rig. Built at Schooner Creek Boatworks for Dick Horn in 2000. The build and condition are impressive. The boat has never been raced, so it has dead simple gear. Would need some better downwind sails and some basic gear. I really like the boat, especially given we used to own a Sonoma 30 with very similar lines.

 

Anyone familiar with the boat? It lived on SF Bay for awhile, but wasn't sailed much. Then went to the Columbia River.

 

I like the boat, but I've found something else as well. Still investigating.

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The Synergy 1000 is a super cool boat!! Raced on Summer Moon for many years and had invites more than once to do the PAC Cup on it. They do tow pretty decent even with the 7ft deep fixed keel and keel stepped carbon beast of a rig. Super fun boat to really get ripping think Express 27 on Roids they have very similar natures except the 1000 turned the dial to 11 where the Express runs at a 9.

 

I have years and years of SF and Ocean racing on the Express some of the worst conditions I've ever raced in was on the Express which simply just went faster with larger grin factor.

 

The 1000 demands a very attentive main sheet trimmer or the driver is going to be wrestling with keeping the boat pointed in the right direction also the spin trim needs more attention unless your gearing down for the Squall action before you start to find the outer limit etc. The guys that took Summer Moon in the PAC Cup at one point were seeing as high as 25 however they were running on empty regarding sleep and decided to dial it back before things went "Stupid" in a bad way. LOL

 

I've raced that boat around the Farallons and around the city front quite a bit. 19's coming back into the GG was pretty typical and the boat was basically just in cruise mode nothing white knuckle about it however all of us had raced on the Express 27's for years and years and had lots of time on the 1000 together also so it was second nature. I wouldn't want to do a 1000 double handed in the PAC Cup nor would I want to do the Antrim 27 Double handed both would need to be geared way back to keep things handled with a tired crew of two.

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This is the boat I looked at yesterday:

 

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2000/Schumaker-28-2724249/Portland/OR/United-States

 

It's a Carl Schumacher 28. Basically a modern Express 27 with a lifting keel and much bigger rig. Built at Schooner Creek Boatworks for Dick Horn in 2000. The build and condition are impressive. The boat has never been raced, so it has dead simple gear. Would need some better downwind sails and some basic gear. I really like the boat, especially given we used to own a Sonoma 30 with very similar lines.

 

Anyone familiar with the boat? It lived on SF Bay for awhile, but wasn't sailed much. Then went to the Columbia River.

 

I like the boat, but I've found something else as well. Still investigating.

Thats a cool boat. We had one of those at RYC for years but never got a chance to sail on it or see it out sailing. Wish I had.

 

Given the choice between a U24 and the Carl 28 - I'd go 28

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Hey Roleur

 

One thing about the honda sail drive unit. We had that in the 1000. It was a constant pain in the Arse - it was replaced with a Yanmar prior to the PAC Cup plan and probably the single best EVER thing the Owner sunk money into. Not counting rebuilding the deck and reconfiguring the main sheet system and working the rig over prior to the first PAC CUP. The Current owner of that 1000 got one hell of a boat!!!

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Why aren't you considering a lift keel Hobie 33? I don't have experience with any of these boats but from what I do know given what you're looking for it would be #1 on my list.

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Hobie 33 - Functionally a great boat. Unfortunately, it is a long, narrow, ugly (only my opinion matters in this case), old boat. If I sailed blindfolded it would be the perfect boat. Have to look at it too... I just can't wrap my brain around sailing on my ear upwind and I'm really keen to get a newer boat if it fits the budget.

 

There are definitely other boats that fit my requirements, including budget, and interest me more.

 

Apologies to all H33 owners. Keep having fun with them. There are no doubt many, many positive aspects to the boat.

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Pretty much, only because a multi that fits my budget and is easily trailerable doesn't translate well into a boat to race to Hawaii. What multi does?

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Since my boat is still in Hawaii I was walking the docks and yards yesterday. It was that or stay home and listen to mother and daughter stressing over wedding details (it's next weekend).

 

I looked at everything and as has happened before, I went home feeling really good about the boat I already own. Agreed on the Hobie 33 - I never liked the look and they're getting pretty old.

 

Except for squalls, Hawaii races are mostly 15-20 knot off-the-wind affairs. I'd want to be sure the boat wasn't underwicked.

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To be clear, I'm not debating the H33 with you because I think I know better than you or anyone else here. I'm really just asking these questions for my own education.

 

Regarding narrowness and form stability (not sailing on your ear upwind), my impression is that it is hard to do any better than the H33 and keep an easily trailerable boat. The H33's beam is 8.0' which is exactly the maximum trailer width in most states in the US. Perhaps the boat could carry that beam along a larger portion of the length and have flatter bilges which would give it more form stability, but I think you have to go a good bit wider than 8' to get a boat that sails much flatter upwind. For example, the mini transat max beam is 9.8' for only 21' length on deck.

 

The age of the H33 is actually part of what is attractive to me about the boat. The problems with the boat are already well known rather than waiting to be discovered out in the middle of the ocean.

 

But it's really all about what appeals to you and what you like best during the sea trial.

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Somebody needs to rescue SLEEPING DRAGON. It still looks okay but it's been sitting on its trailer for a long time. Fixed keel with updated rudder and some carbon reinforcements - GREAT race record.

 

Primate, since you know better than anyone else here I'm sure you know that a Hobie 33 does not have a happy rating for Pacific Cup. Very tough to sail to it DH. AND it has that mudsucker look...

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Underwicked is a big concern. I haven't gotten the rig dimensions and kite sail area, but I did measure with a tape. Upwind sail area seems to be good. The kite would be small though. Fractional hoist and only a 9.5' pole. I think it could easily be solved with a penalty pole, a strap on sprit, or a folding articulating sprit like a Mini, Madrona, or Dark Star.

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Underwicked is a big concern. I haven't gotten the rig dimensions and kite sail area, but I did measure with a tape. Upwind sail area seems to be good. The kite would be small though. Fractional hoist and only a 9.5' pole. I think it could easily be solved with a penalty pole, a strap on sprit, or a folding articulating sprit like a Mini, Madrona, or Dark Star.

Compare it to the E27 numbers see how it sits weight vs sail area. I would expect it to be similar or slightly more canvased than the E27. The only issue with going modified is how big of a rating penalty do you get hit with via the PAC Cup rating? That could end up killing any major improvement in the performance. I would expect if its similar to the E27 in the numbers your going to be in good shape not to mention if you want lots of reserve power then you start running into the same A27 type issues of man power , Sleep deprived man power vs boat that needs to get down shifted to keep you from crashing it every time a squall fires off. Crashing is slow

 

We crashed twice on the Pac Cup I did. The owner has done that race I think around 12 times. In our case we finished 1st corrected out 2nd by 20 minutes!! We crashed the last night spent 45 minutes cleaning up the mess. Lost the race right there.

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It has the same D/L as an E27 and a slightly higher SA/Disp upwind. Not sure about downwind though.

 

Spin net - We flew ours continuously from the day the kite went up until the finish line. Zero wraps. Perfect.

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For sure Spinnaker Nets are a good way to go though if you do get really messed up they can be a big issue too.

 

We flew the big giant red monster 99% of the trip except about half way we started blowing brand new high rated halyards. 12,000lb boat vs big ass kite designed specific for the PAC Cup which flew great actually was easier to drive to than our smaller kites. We simply started pulling the halyards apart. We had 6 halyards including one externally run one to a block. We arrived on our external halyard. LOL Halyards were sent back to the rigger and after pulling the cover his response was WTF!!!! The core was failing pretty much the entire length of the halyard on all of them! Fair guess we were pushing the boat pretty hard. LOL He upped the halyards which you could basically hoist the boat by and didn't have much of an issue after that. We left the spin net at home but I think he used it for the Trans Pac.

 

We wrapped the kite a few times but no joke we got so we could unwrap it with the helm and some timed trimming. Crazy what you can do after 2000 miles of non stop sailing and driving.

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R! - let us know next time you are in Portland - looking for a boat or not... We'd love to buy you a beer or something. I've been to busy to notice this until now, but love this problem you have!

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Cool boat! Fits most, if not all of your requirements. It looks very manageable for a DH'ed PacCup. Seems like it could be made competitive. I guess there could be more of a rating risk with a one-off. But long ocean racing is always a crap-shoot. You would be eligible for the Schumacher prize! Sorry I didn't give you any useful info. Good Luck!! Congrats of the Best First.

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So uppers, If I was there longer, I would have contacted you. As it was, I arrived at 10pm on Sat. And left at 12pm on Sun. Just enough time to look at the boat. Next time for sure...

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A pic for those that haven't clicked on the link yet.

 

4720539_20140527102405346_1_XLARGE.jpg&w

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Sure does look like the ex-After Math, which I have never heard of until your mention. It's such a cool looking boat (at least without the jib-boom!). I wonder how it escaped my attention having been built and owned locally.

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I think Aftermath was the one parked at RYC for some time in the dry yard. Pretty sure it had the self tacking jib boom and I know that bottom paint and stripe match. The one he's looking at doesn't look like the same boat unless they removed the self tacking jib boom and reworked the paint job.

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It is the same boat. Previously owned by Dick Horn and he kept it at RYC. It originally had the Hoyt Boom and a carbon rig. Now the rig is traditional. You can even see faint hints of the old After Math name on the side. The Hoyt boom brackets in the bow are obvious as well.

 

The current owners kept the boat further east near Walla Walla or Hermiston or some such, so not too surprising you haven't seen it around Soup. Although, as you say, it was built locally, and just revisited SchoonerCreek for the bottom paint.

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What happened to the carbon rig on Silver Linings" ex "After Math"? And how come the little gasoline engine?

This could be a sweet little trailerable fast pocket cruiser, but to do it right would probably cost $10-20K and add 500 lbs (diesel, tankage, stove, real head, batteries, safety gear, etc.)

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Andrews 28 but because John hurt his back we couldn't show what she'd do on the Pac Cup. We'll see how we do on my Andrews in the Bermuda 1-2 next year.

Cheers, Greg

.

 

....Andrews28 was mentioned...interesting they gave a shot in the PacCup-too bad it didn't work out this time.

,,,they did a good job of balancing 'good racer',,'wife friendly',,,'max trailerable size' in the design brief,,,and they seem to be built well ;)

 

 

 

....with your thread title I was gonna say you'd have a tough time trailering to Hawaii :mellow:

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Stan, great questions. I've asked Dick, the original owner, those questions. Let's see what he says. I've heard he didn't like the way the carbon rig performed, but I don't know what that means.

 

I'm ambivalent about the gas saildrive. I'll give it a go, but if it gives me any trouble, I'll yank it and stick an outboard on it, probably a Torqueedo. It has one redeeming feature. I'm pretty sure Bermuda 1-2 requires an inboard and that is on my to do list.

 

We are moving forward with the purchase. Deal isn't done yet, but moving forward.

 

And Stan, I fixed your comment "This could be a sweet little trailerable fast pocket cruiser ocean racer". Absolutely no plans to even pretend to cruise this boat, not even camping style. That's what the J/120 is for. She will be a stripped down racer only. No cross-dressing. All those $$$ you mention will be spent instead on downwind sails and Cat 1 offshore requirements.

 

Right now my focus is figuring out how to get the boat from Oregon to Texas, then it will be sorting out the best way to fly much bigger asymmetrical kites. With a decent size kite this boat should have some nice pace and be a blast to sail.

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The carbon rig was probably very different regarding its bend nature. Tuning a carbon rig for performance after having an Aluminum rig on the boat can be pretty challenging given they can be really different and even need a different approach to the sail cuts etc. Possible he just said screw it and tossed an Aluminum rig on it. The carbon rig would probably be more ideal for the ocean stuff less pumping on the swells and more tollerant of the cyclic loads etc.

 

The inboard honda thing we spent lots of time fooling with the one on the Synergy 1000 same exact engine and rig is my guess.

 

We had all sorts of exhaust and engine stink in the cabin no matter how much we worked on the damn thing. We flushed it after every use and still had lots of corrosion issues and the final nail in the coffin was simply the idea of trying to haul fuel for it in the PAC CUP and trying to use it to charge the house batteries when the solar gear wasn't keeping up. In the end I think it was around $18K to yank it and drop in the Yanmar which was a huge!!!!!! Improvement in the live ability of the boat not to mention far more reliable, didn't stink up the cabin, really improved the charging ability for the PAC Cup, Dramatically increased the range vs amount of fuel on board, was actually quieter and the boat could easily motor at higher speeds etc.

 

Basically after experiencing both I wouldn't even bother with the honda inboard thing I'd just yank it and put a diesel in or pack along a outboard that gets tossed on the back of the boat. At least the standard out board can be chucked in the back of the car and dropped off at a service shop vs trying to find someone willing to run down to the boat and fool with one glassed into the bottom of the boat.

 

One of our U20 fleet guys used the Torqueedo a bunch. For the little U20 and known locations and conditions etc it was pretty good. For coastal racing, ocean stuff etc on a 28footer I would rather have the 2hp Honda given even with 1 gallon of fuel on the boat you have 2hrs of flat out running if you really really needed it and found your self in a pinch. That didn't seem like much of a concern till we did the SF to Ventura race on the Express 27 then sailed over to Twin Harbors and found our selves motoring the last hour + into the harbor with decent current ZERO WIND along with some good wave action, and a some what unknown harbor entrance with rocky out croppings to avoid with the sun fading fast. That little 2hp Honda made what could have been a pretty stressful approach a non issue and we did stop and fuel it up once from the 1gallon can to make sure it didn't run dry as we were coming into the harbor which we were not familiar with.

 

Pretty sure we would have needed 4 or more batteries for the Torqueedo to do what we did and there still would have been some apprehension that the Torqueedo would have enough range vs battery to get us there. Pushing that big of a boat the Torqueedo range is really short especially if you have any windage or wave or current your having to kick it up some to get through.

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There are certain things I feel really strongly about... This boat will never have a diesel engine in it. The only path this will go if the inboard gas engines stinks (pun intended) is to replace it with an outboard and a hydrogenerator. So much simpler and lighter. It's difficult for me to convey my hatred of combustion engines, so there is no way I will spend money on another engine. We already have an Nissan outboard as an option.

 

I'm not sure if people have noticed, but Watt & Sea now offers a hydrogenerator with a 1/2 size generator that is about 60% of the cost of the standard. ~$3500ish. That seems like a reasonable price for the power it will generate.

 

I just double checked and B1-2 does not require an inboard, only auxiliary engine, so we are golden.

 

Any next "engine" I buy will be either an electric outboard or an electric inboard. Definitely willing sacrifice range to avoid having a combustion engine. Just waiting for the Yanmar in a our J/120 to die so I can go electric there.

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There are certain things I feel really strongly about... This boat will never have a diesel engine in it. The only path this will go if the inboard gas engines stinks (pun intended) is to replace it with an outboard and a hydrogenerator. So much simpler and lighter. It's difficult for me to convey my hatred of combustion engines, so there is no way I will spend money on another engine. We already have an Nissan outboard as an option.

 

I'm not sure if people have noticed, but Watt & Sea now offers a hydrogenerator with a 1/2 size generator that is about 60% of the cost of the standard. ~$3500ish. That seems like a reasonable price for the power it will generate.

 

I just double checked and B1-2 does not require an inboard, only auxiliary engine, so we are golden.

 

Any next "engine" I buy will be either an electric outboard or an electric inboard. Definitely willing sacrifice range to avoid having a combustion engine. Just waiting for the Yanmar in a our J/120 to die so I can go electric there.

 

Roleur did you ever read up on Jerome's Open mini on board power system? I would probably go that route over anything that drags in the water especially for any of the races where lots of debri is typically found. Tiki Blue spent some time untangling their prop from a very very large fishing net mess on the way back from Oahu just a few days ago. This is fairly typical stuff for the PAC CUP folks. I wouldn't want a major / primary power source damaged or rendered useless because it was dragging in the water.

 

The Menthol power unit Gerome used was down right impressive and quiet. Also contained on the boat with no risk of getting messed up. The small boats without good inboard diesels to charge up house systems - POWER especially for those short handed races almost always is a huge factor in how well they ended up placing in the race given how much hand driving vs auto pilot time and also how good their auto pilot systems were etc. Hands down I would be digging into the power units like what Jerome used. Not cheap but seems to be the CATs Meow for solid power to keep the small boat systems going strong.

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Well since you feel THAT way about it . . .

 

Yes, EFOY (etc.) is an option. If we ever get normal weather for a Hawaii race, solar is too. That smaller hydrogenerator is cool but you need to be moving > 5 knots (8.5 for the large one) - there was a lot of the race this year when we weren't.

 

Our local ocean races require being able to motor at hull speed for longer than a Torqueedo would ever last, plus the prop wouldn't stay in the water in much chop (same for an outboard).

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The EFOY units that the mini's use are great. My only hang up is the cost relative to the power output. One of the Express 27's in SHTP this year had an EFOY and it was barely able/not quite able to keep up with the demand of the autopilot. It's a good device, but not sure it is a good primary source and then it becomes an expensive backup. For half the cost you could cover your boat with solar panels and generate 10x the power.

 

I've looked at this quite a bit. Solar is by far the best value option. The only drawback is where to mount them. With the new flexible walkable panels that is becoming less of an issue.

 

I think the Moore 24 and 4 SC 27's all relied on solar this year as their only power source. Wolfpack I believe used a gas generator. Thirsty used a hydrogenerator.

 

Hydro with solar as a backup is a safe, simple option that offers good value for the watts produced.

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Yep the solar panel thing in the PAC Cup at least with the those that make that trip pretty much every time is typically more of a back up vs a primary source. The smaller boats like the Moore 24's and the Express 27's heavily depend on the solar panels and there have been many years where they had a pretty miserable trip across with very little power to run the Auto pilot or in some cases even get enough juice to keep the bar basics going. Thats a rough way to go especially short handed. The EFOY is pretty cool and seems like a slam dunk for the smaller boats pricy but man after you spend all that time getting prepped for those types of races the last thing you want is a lack of juice shit canning your race and making it a miserable effort.

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The EFOY units that the mini's use are great. My only hang up is the cost relative to the power output. One of the Express 27's in SHTP this year had an EFOY and it was barely able/not quite able to keep up with the demand of the autopilot. It's a good device, but not sure it is a good primary source and then it becomes an expensive backup. For half the cost you could cover your boat with solar panels and generate 10x the power.

 

I've looked at this quite a bit. Solar is by far the best value option. The only drawback is where to mount them. With the new flexible walkable panels that is becoming less of an issue.

 

I think the Moore 24 and 4 SC 27's all relied on solar this year as their only power source. Wolfpack I believe used a gas generator. Thirsty used a hydrogenerator.

 

Hydro with solar as a backup is a safe, simple option that offers good value for the watts produced.

 

I recall the last Pac Cup the Synergy did it they ran with two sizable panels off the quarter on the stern and they were impressed with how much power they had from those. That is really the only way I could see doing it on the Express 27 or your 28 given you have enough stern space to mount some good efficient panels. The down side is if you get one of those years when the sun doesn't want to come out which case the in water hydrogenerator if its not hard to deploy and remove could be sort of your power bump option or your alternate to the Solar. Both have risks but if you had both your sorta covering your ass some regarding options if one or the other is not cutting it.

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What west coast ocean races require so much motoring? Not that I really care. I live in Texas. :) My plans for California racing were not so much. Some of the DH races up in the PNW like Swiftsure, or Race for the Straits, but those aren't races where chop is an issue.

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Hey Roleur regarding the Hydro Generator are they upset by boats that are doing 12-15knots and surfing? I don't know much about them except the idea of trolling one behind the boat in the PAC Cup would seem to carry about as much risk as not having any sun for the solar. I can't believe the amount of random crap we saw out there in the middle of nowhere. Also a hydrogenerator doesn't get mistaken as food by large critters of the deep do they? We caught a nice yellowfin and later had a large shark following us for most of a day at one point. We lost many lures to things that apparently were quite LARGE.

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Exactly. Hydro as primary and solar as a backup is high output, higher value than other options, redundant, and independent. If both of those fail, well... shit happens. Starters fail, alternators fail, regulators fail, fuel filters clog, masts fall down, rudders break... There are no guarantees. I can guarantee hydro and solar would be quieter than an engine though and that is worth a lot to me. I think I have a "thing" about noise. Probably one of the reasons I don't have children and I like to sail. I like my peace and quiet. It's not for everybody, but I'm not trying to solve a universal problem, just my problem.

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I missed the memo on the quiet thing (and that's all I can write about that!)

_______________________

 

Re motoring, see 2.6:

 

http://norcalorc.org/sites/default/files/Norcal%20ORC%20Offshore%20Equipment%20List%202.3.pdf

 

These rules apply to OYRA, SSS races outside the Gate and a few others. The rule used to be hull speed but I see they made it more specific (4 knots for 4 hours).

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Exactly. Hydro as primary and solar as a backup is high output, higher value than other options, redundant, and independent. If both of those fail, well... shit happens. Starters fail, alternators fail, regulators fail, fuel filters clog, masts fall down, rudders break... There are no guarantees. I can guarantee hydro and solar would be quieter than an engine though and that is worth a lot to me. I think I have a "thing" about noise. Probably one of the reasons I don't have children and I like to sail. I like my peace and quiet. It's not for everybody, but I'm not trying to solve a universal problem, just my problem.

We typically ran the engine for an hour or so once a day on the O34 which had two group 31's for the house. We ran one sizable solar panel off the back which later saved our bacon when we discovered the dedicated starter battery which was new was bad broken plate or something. Ended up going two days on basics and got enough charge off the solar panel to get the engine fired up again to charge the house up. They always ran it when I was off watch I could sleep right next to the damn thing the second my head hit the bunk. Oddly enough the second I heard my name I would be up and out on deck. Weird how lack of sleep affects people.

 

Of course thats no auto pilot given we were crewed not single or double handed.

 

He did run the Transpac last time around with his own auto pilot design and computer code. You should talk to him I'll drop you his contact info.

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The Watt & Sea hydros are pretty common on Open 60's that do 20+, but they generate good power down to about 5 knots. Thing is you wouldn't need it in the water 24 hours a day. At 7.5 knots the thing is producing 20 amps. I haven't looked at in detail, but I believe there is a fuse of some sort to allow it to kick up if it hits something. Common on Class 40's too.

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According to Torqeedo it will push 1.5 tons (about right) at 3.4 mph for 3:30 hours. Carry a second battery pack and I think you'd meet the requirement.

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R - Let us know if you need any "boots on the ground" to close the deal on this thing - we would be glad to help if we can. I quickly checked it out yesterday on the way stow our trailer. I was in a hurry, so I didn't get to spend as much time as I would have liked, but it looks like a cool boat in remarkably good condition. Schooner Creek does really nice work.

 

If we end up keeping our dually, maybe I should sell you my Expedition!

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R - I mostly like the way you think (though I like my kids :) ). I don't see how the Torqeedo meets the ISAF rules below though, 3.4mph isn't fast enough and you need to be able to go for 8 hours. This is from 2013 ISAF (what we had to follow this year - even though it is 2014...). The 2014/15 regs are very much the same except they allow the race to modify the 8 hour minimum.

 

Engines, Generators, Fuel
Propulsion Engines [**]
a)
Engines and associated systems shall be installed in accordance with their manufacturers? guidelines and shall be of a type, strength, capacity, and installation suitable for the size and intended use of the yacht. [**]
B)
An inboard propulsion engine when fitted shall: be provided with a permanently installed exhaust, coolant, and fuel supply systems and fuel tank(s); be securely covered; and have adequate protection from the effects of heavy weather.[**]
c)
A propulsion engine required by Special Regulations shall provide a minimum speed in knots of (1.8 x square root of LWL in metres) or (square root of LWL in feet) [MoMu0,1,2,3]
e)
An inboard propulsion engine shall be provided for yachts [Mo0,1,2Mu0]
Generator
A separate generator for electricity is optional. However, when a separate generator is carried it shall be permanently installed, securely covered, and shall have permanently installed exhaust, cooling and fuel supply systems and fuel tank(s), and have adequate protection from the effects of heavy weather. [**]
Fuel Systems
a)
Each fuel tank provided with a shutoff valve. Except for permanently installed linings or liners, a flexible tank is not permitted as a fuel tank. [MoMu0,1,2,3]
B)
The propulsion engine shall have a minimum amount of fuel which may be specified in the Notice of Race but if not, shall be sufficient to be able to meet charging requirements for the duration of the race and to motor at the above minimum speed for at least 8 hours [MoMu0,1,2,3]

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Thanks Bob - I meant to call that out, it does specifically say: The requirements of 3.28.3 apply, which is why I said I don't think the Toqeedo qualifies.

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Pretty much, only because a multi that fits my budget and is easily trailerable doesn't translate well into a boat to race to Hawaii. What multi does?

F27. Scads of them out there with different levels of raciness. I don't know the Pac Cup rules regarding size of multis but if they Moore 24s do it don't see why a F27 in good condition wouldn't be suitable.

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I don't think it is random chance that dozens and dozens of trips to Hawaii have been made on Moore 24's and only one (while racing) has been made on F-27s (1987). Surely there is a reason "scads" of F-27's haven't followed suit in the intervening 26 years. Heck they could have a one-design fleet... They would be allowed in Pacific Cup I believe. An F-36 did it this year.

 

I know the reason I won't be racing an F-27 to Hawaii, can't speak for all the owners out there, why they haven't done it already. Seems suspicious to me that only one boat has tried in 25+ years.

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A 3.5hp outboard in flat pushes my boat @ 6k. I tested a Torqeedo 1003 and at max output it pushed at 4.5k and would run for 30-45 minutes max. To run for 4+ hours for NorCal rules @ 4k boat speed you would need 2-3 extra batteries at like $500+ each. The T1003 does not have an external battery option.

 

I've done extensive testing on a Torqeedo 2.0 as well. A 6hp outboard pushes us @ 6.5-7k and the T2.0 could @ 6.5k. I used a 160Ah, 24V lithium pack and could motor @ 75% throttle doing 6k for 4 hours but the total weight was 42lbs for the motor plus 10lbs for cables and 120lbs for the batteries (now you can do 200Ah for 120lbs). Still to heavy vs. the 3.5hp outboard @ 43lbs & 3 gal of fuel @ 25lbs.

 

For Mexico, Hawaii, B1-2 I think you need 8 hours run time @ near hull speed which is greater than 4k by far. Won't be able to do that with electric without a huge battery weight penalty. Mexico, B1-2, PacCup, & SHTP will allow an outboard but the Transpac will not allow one stern mounted, only in an inboard well.

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I went solar only in 2000 with a very minimum battery bank and 8+ amps solar and didn't drive more than 8-10 hours the whole race. I wouldn't even consider a Hydro generator since it will slow a small boat down with considerable drag and the cost is high. I'd use that budget on a Fuel Cell combined with solar.

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Any idea what Elise's problem was with the EFOY? I hadn't heard of issues with them before (though we don't see them out here much).

 

I'd also be reluctant to drag a hydrogenerator behind my little boat.

 

 

What we need is a return to normal weather for these Hawaii races. Stan's "slotcars to Hawaii" hasn't been my experience in three tries.

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