• Announcements

    • UnderDawg

      A Few Simple Rules   05/22/2017

      Sailing Anarchy is a very lightly moderated site. This is by design, to afford a more free atmosphere for discussion. There are plenty of sailing forums you can go to where swearing isn't allowed, confrontation is squelched and, and you can have a moderator finger-wag at you for your attitude. SA tries to avoid that and allow for more adult behavior without moderators editing your posts and whacking knuckles with rulers. We don't have a long list of published "thou shalt nots" either, and this is by design. Too many absolute rules paints us into too many corners. So check the Terms of Service - there IS language there about certain types of behavior that is not permitted. We interpret that lightly and permit a lot of latitude, but we DO reserve the right to take action when something is too extreme to tolerate (too racist, graphic, violent, misogynistic, etc.). Yes, that is subjective, but it allows us discretion. Avoiding a laundry list of rules allows for freedom; don't abuse it. However there ARE a few basic rules that will earn you a suspension, and apparently a brief refresher is in order. 1) Allegations of pedophilia - there is no tolerance for this. So if you make allegations, jokes, innuendo or suggestions about child molestation, child pornography, abuse or inappropriate behavior with minors etc. about someone on this board you will get a time out. This is pretty much automatic; this behavior can have real world effect and is not acceptable. Obviously the subject is not banned when discussion of it is apropos, e.g. talking about an item in the news for instance. But allegations or references directed at or about another poster is verboten. 2) Outing people - providing real world identifiable information about users on the forums who prefer to remain anonymous. Yes, some of us post with our real names - not a problem to use them. However many do NOT, and if you find out someone's name keep it to yourself, first or last. This also goes for other identifying information too - employer information etc. You don't need too many pieces of data to figure out who someone really is these days. Depending on severity you might get anything from a scolding to a suspension - so don't do it. I know it can be confusing sometimes for newcomers, as SA has been around almost twenty years and there are some people that throw their real names around and their current Display Name may not match the name they have out in the public. But if in doubt, you don't want to accidentally out some one so use caution, even if it's a personal friend of yours in real life. 3) Posting While Suspended - If you've earned a timeout (these are fairly rare and hard to get), please observe the suspension. If you create a new account (a "Sock Puppet") and return to the forums to post with it before your suspension is up you WILL get more time added to your original suspension and lose your Socks. This behavior may result a permanent ban, since it shows you have zero respect for the few rules we have and the moderating team that is tasked with supporting them. Check the Terms of Service you agreed to; they apply to the individual agreeing, not the account you created, so don't try to Sea Lawyer us if you get caught. Just don't do it. Those are the three that will almost certainly get you into some trouble. IF YOU SEE SOMEONE DO ONE OF THESE THINGS, please do the following: Refrain from quoting the offending text, it makes the thread cleanup a pain in the rear Press the Report button; it is by far the best way to notify Admins as we will get e-mails. Calling out for Admins in the middle of threads, sending us PM's, etc. - there is no guarantee we will get those in a timely fashion. There are multiple Moderators in multiple time zones around the world, and anyone one of us can handle the Report and all of us will be notified about it. But if you PM one Mod directly and he's off line, the problem will get dealt with much more slowly. Other behaviors that you might want to think twice before doing include: Intentionally disrupting threads and discussions repeatedly. Off topic/content free trolling in threads to disrupt dialog Stalking users around the forums with the intent to disrupt content and discussion Repeated posting of overly graphic or scatological porn content. There are plenty web sites for you to get your freak on, don't do it here. And a brief note to Newbies... No, we will not ban people or censor them for dropping F-bombs on you, using foul language, etc. so please don't report it when one of our members gives you a greeting you may find shocking. We do our best not to censor content here and playing swearword police is not in our job descriptions. Sailing Anarchy is more like a bar than a classroom, so handle it like you would meeting someone a little coarse - don't look for the teacher. Thanks.

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Tyson0317

J/35 Stuck and could be dangerous!

26 posts in this topic

Sorry in advance for the stupid watermark that was inserted by the trialware I used to cut down the video clip.

 

http://youtu.be/O2_x9lAZ4A4

 

Please check it out and I would like to hear from you old sea dogs about what you think happened there. There was a fair bit of load on the sheet and I wanted to ease it, but the load was so high that the cam cleat would not open. Obviously, this should not happen... So what did I do wrong? That cam cleat is not new, but works properly. I am wondering if the teeth maybe need to be polished. I would think that applying any kind of lube would be a bad idea - right?

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Photos of the offending cleat would help

 

Uncleating is downwards ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ill get some over the weekend. Yes, uncleating is down. It's a Harken cleat - part of a Harken windward sheeting car system. That should not happen, right?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not sure without more details.

 

I usually uncleat while keeping some pressure on the main sheet. Recently on a Young 11 I found lifting sheet with my foot helped when cleating, the opposite to uncleat while keeping tension on the sheet.

 

First ideas are no pressure on the main sheet tail, main sheet too small, cams are worn or cam are lifting slightly jamming the sheet between them.

 

Pulling some main sheet ON, uncleating then releasing might work better than your current method

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Make sure the SS metal bracket holding it is not bent. If so bend it back. The little balls in the cleat ware out. Check and if so replace them or just get a new clear. Id get it fixed immediately.

 

Also the balls in the travlier ware out. Big money as the whole sliding thing is replaced.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On my J/35 it happens frequently. If it's a Harken block, what I do is raise the cam part as high as possible (remove the frame holding the cam cleat and raise it to the top position.) My mainsheet trimmer has a technique, he pulls the halyard tight and stomps on the line to pop it out of the cleat when it's highly loaded.

 

I did replace the frame holding the cam cleat this winter as it was slightly bent and I went down a line size on the sheets. Both seemed to help. My boom preventer had the same frame on it's cam cleat and it was like new so I just swapped it with the one from the mainsheet. I wouldn't worry about the jaws in the cam cleat. I would say replace the blocks, but Harken prices being what they are, reposition the cam cleat if it's not at the highest point first.

 

But single handed it can be a bitch.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How old is the sheet, is the cover worn/soft? Along with the cleat old sheets get 'grabby', especially a spot that is always in the cleat. If so, maybe reverse the sheet so fresh cover is in the area that gets cleated under pressure.

 

With the pressure a 35 mainsheet can have on it sometimes foot help is required.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We used to have this drama with a centreline mounted mainsheet swivel cleat, when the traveler was dropped the tension meant you couldn't release the sheet at all. Got a spinlock power cleat, one flick even under max load. Awesome.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We used to have this drama with a centreline mounted mainsheet swivel cleat, when the traveler was dropped the tension meant you couldn't release the sheet at all. Got a spinlock power cleat, one flick even under max load. Awesome.

 

How did you mount it? Pics?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

PXR08/10 T. It has the same bolt centres as a mid sized harken cam cleat. Ours was the right way up, so you might want to check weather it will fit in there upside down.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry in advance for the stupid watermark that was inserted by the trialware I used to cut down the video clip.

 

http://youtu.be/O2_x9lAZ4A4

 

Please check it out and I would like to hear from you old sea dogs about what you think happened there. There was a fair bit of load on the sheet and I wanted to ease it, but the load was so high that the cam cleat would not open. Obviously, this should not happen... So what did I do wrong? That cam cleat is not new, but works properly. I am wondering if the teeth maybe need to be polished. I would think that applying any kind of lube would be a bad idea - right?

Ah yes, I have been there and like you have stepped on the sheet and fought it to get it uncleated. There is just a lot of load on those. Becomes dangerous if you are trying to head down in a crossing situation and can't get it released. If you can pull in as you release, you can stand a chance. But again, there is just a lot of load on it. Since you really need to lighten the load on the cleat to get it to release, you can first release the fine trim and then the coarse trim. Or you can try dropping the traveler first and then try the sheet.

 

So after experimenting with a Spinlock cleat(releases too easily and can slip), I bought one of these:

http://www.fisheriessupply.com/harken-nash-trigger-cleat

 

I have heard that the SF J35's used them and I believe they are a favorite of the Etchells fleets. You mount it upside down and to release when it is honking, you just pull the sheet up against the trigger. Hold it there and you can gently let it out or dump it. I have never had an issue releasing the sheet in strong winds with it. In light air, it releases down like a normal cam cleat. Fairly spendy(what isn't), but it has been well worth it. It has lasted several years and only shows some wear where the sheet rubs on the plastic base.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

couldn't tell if you had a gross and fine trim on that arrangement, but if it's load lock, easing the fine trim a bit might release it.

i've never had that happen though... more likely to have the bearings on the trav car bind up

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

couldn't tell if you had a gross and fine trim on that arrangement, but if it's load lock, easing the fine trim a bit might release it.

i've never had that happen though... more likely to have the bearings on the trav car bind up

I watched the video again, and the fine trim is already let out as far as it will go.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Definitely need something done there, the breeze did not look that high, so it should not have been that hard to release. GW's cleat looks like a great answer, might have to check that one out.

 

Now the other solution is to get a main trimer so you can concentrate on driving. I've done both driving and trimming but on a 35 but having a trimmer that learns to work with you is priceless. I had one guy who went home with bruises on his upper arm from 'asking' him to travel down in big puffy breeze and a armful of tiller to handle.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

+100 on getting a main trimmer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Definitely need something done there, the breeze did not look that high, so it should not have been that hard to release. GW's cleat looks like a great answer, might have to check that one out.

 

Now the other solution is to get a main trimer so you can concentrate on driving. I've done both driving and trimming but on a 35 but having a trimmer that learns to work with you is priceless. I had one guy who went home with bruises on his upper arm from 'asking' him to travel down in big puffy breeze and a armful of tiller to handle.

 

+1. I finally have a mainsheet trimmer who I can rely on 100%. "helm's loading up" almost instantly brings a slight ease. We are getting really in sync. BIG difference in my sailing not worrying about the main.

 

Also, when I replaced the mainsheets this winter, I made the fine tune line longer. It's my 'emergency release' when I'm sailing shorthanded or alone. It adds to the spagetti in the cockpit but worth it in control. I'm a pain in the ass about keeping the fine tune the right length and set it on the tacks just so I have an 'out' if I can't release the gross under load if I don't have my regular mainsheet trimmer on the boat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

couldn't tell if you had a gross and fine trim on that arrangement, but if it's load lock, easing the fine trim a bit might release it.

i've never had that happen though... more likely to have the bearings on the trav car bind up

 

Were those Harken mid-range blocks(?), if so lose them.

 

Get a decent set-up, best I've found is Antal.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

couldn't tell if you had a gross and fine trim on that arrangement, but if it's load lock, easing the fine trim a bit might release it.

i've never had that happen though... more likely to have the bearings on the trav car bind up

Were those Harken mid-range blocks(?), if so lose them.

 

Get a decent set-up, best I've found is Antal.

 

 

Nice setup, but this is what my J35 coarse/double ended fine tune mainsheet looks like. Yes, the fine tune blocks are smallish. Have never had a failure. The coarse tune blocks and traveler are big boat series:

post-4794-0-28472200-1407100285_thumb.jpg

I like the double ended fine tune style. When I replace the fine tune sheet, I am going to splice it into a continuous loop. With plenty of line now, I currently have the ends tied together. It can be trimmed without coming down off the rail.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Glad to see that I started another discussion ;-)

 

Thank you guys a ton for the help!

 

To answer questions:

- Uncleating is downwards.

- Sheet quality is good. It is a very tick line, I would say somewhere in the 14mm range. It is not brand new, but is in great 'broken-in' shape where it is nice on the hands.

- Close-up pics posted below.

- Yes we were under load.

- I dont remember if I had the fine trimmers let out on both sides, but the problem that I run into with these is that the upper block of the fine tune can only go so high. I can release them and the block just gets sucked up to the boom and can go no farther. Especially with vang on where the boom is pulled down.

 

 

Drew and Bum if you want to come crew on my boat, or know a good main trimmer that does, please feel free to put us in touch. In the meantime, I need help with getting my main sheet to unlock under load.

 

GW, as always, your comments are worth their weight in gold. Do you by chance own Fisheries stock? ;-) I clicked the link - what is the $60 plate? Do I need it? The cleat for $120, seems boat-reasonable. However the plate looks like something outrageously overpriced. Is this the thing to do?

post-106662-0-41360700-1407179163_thumb.jpg

post-106662-0-60645600-1407179347_thumb.jpg

post-106662-0-57451200-1407179434_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

GW, as always, your comments are worth their weight in gold. Do you by chance own Fisheries stock? ;-) I clicked the link - what is the $60 plate? Do I need it? The cleat for $120, seems boat-reasonable. However the plate looks like something outrageously overpriced. Is this the thing to do?

No, I don't own stock at Fisheries, but I have made enough purchases there to own a corner of the store and I do get a great discount with the account I am on.

According to the specs I found, the Nash cleat(marketed by Harken) has a fastener spacing of 2". Your existing cleat looks like the offshore cleat with a fastener spacing of 2-1/16". Looks like I mounted the Nash cleat directly to the cam cleat bracket by opening the hole up a little or bending the mounting bracket a little and without the spacer plate. The adapter plate has a fastener spacing of 2-5/8". Measure what you have first to get an idea of what will work. If it is the right size, reuse the fairlead from the old cam cleat, or buy a new one from http://www.fisheriessupply.com/.

 

Try keeping some tension in your fine tune at all times with the block about 1/2 way between the boom and the deck. That way you can let it out or sheet it in when you need to. From the video, the fine tune is let all the way out and the coarse trim is tight. It appears to me too that your vang looks kind of loose. This can increase your sheet tension.

 

We have a similar yet unrelated issue with cam cleats on my boat. Often the spinnaker pole will get trimmed back without someone baby sitting the foreguy. When it is finally noticed that the foreguy is quite tight, lots of jerking and kicking goes on trying to uncleat the line until someone lets the pole forward an inch or so and relieves the pressure a little. It is always something!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't sail a J35 a lot but, shouldn't you have a main trimmer racing fully crewed in what appears to be some breeze? I could be wrong.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

LOL - ahh yes the old cam cleat under heavy load. Easy fix head up ie point into the breeze and unload the main then you can release it. The issue being you need to pull the sheet, over come the load on it to release it from the old style cam cleats. Any fordeck man with experience on a bouy racer that does the occasional big wind ocean race will tell you the joys of swinging their entire body weight on a halyard cleated to the mast as the back of the bus screams to blow the halyard... Seems only this time the back of the bus gets to experience a loaded cam cleat for a change.

 

I switched my smaller boat main sheet to one of these. Works great and needs less attention and force to release or lock. Granted my U20 has lower loads too.

Spinlock

http://images.search.yahoo.com/images/view;_ylt=AwrTcXUd899Ta.8AEFOJzbkF;_ylu=X3oDMTIzazBjanI1BHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDaW1nBG9pZAM1ZmZjOGExYjRiNGQzYTM4OTc3OWYzODEyYWU3MDY2NARncG9zAzEyBGl0A2Jpbmc-?back=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.search.yahoo.com%2Fyhs%2Fsearch%3F_adv_prop%3Dimage%26va%3Dspinlock%2Bcam%2Bcleats%26fr%3Dyhs-ironsource-fullyhosted_003%26hsimp%3Dyhs-fullyhosted_003%26hspart%3Dironsource%26tab%3Dorganic%26ri%3D12&w=300&h=277&imgurl=www.downwindmarine.com%2Fimages%2FP%2F145517.jpg&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.downwindmarine.com%2FSpinlock-PXR-Swivel-Base-Cam-Cleat-p-90892529.html&size=+8.0KB&name=pxr+swivel+base+%3Cb%3Ecam%3C%2Fb%3E+%3Cb%3Ecleat%3C%2Fb%3E+swivel+base+pxr+%3Cb%3Ecam%3C%2Fb%3E+%3Cb%3Ecleat%3C%2Fb%3E+for+360+precision+...&p=spinlock+cam+cleats&oid=5ffc8a1b4b4d3a389779f3812ae70664&fr2=&fr=yhs-ironsource-fullyhosted_003&tt=pxr+swivel+base+%3Cb%3Ecam%3C%2Fb%3E+%3Cb%3Ecleat%3C%2Fb%3E+swivel+base+pxr+%3Cb%3Ecam%3C%2Fb%3E+%3Cb%3Ecleat%3C%2Fb%3E+for+360+precision+...&b=0∋=336&no=12&ts=&tab=organic&sigr=12ggr0n65&sigb=15gu63rar&sigi=11apjjv1j&sigt=135ld8nsd&sign=135ld8nsd&.crumb=WGeXcaiJvXM&fr=yhs-ironsource-fullyhosted_003&hsimp=yhs-fullyhosted_003&hspart=ironsource

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fine tune blocks have never been an issue. Your set-up looks like ours, and your sheet looks good. Careful on the vang sheeting though, if the boom is old/not reinforced she'll only take so much. Ours is reinforced now, with a sleeve where she was spliced back together. ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mine releases upwards, which is a bit easier to do by hand when loaded. You should be able to just flip the cleat on most Harken fittings.

 

However, I've always found on anything about 24' and up that a good kick with your feet is probably the only way to release mainsheet after about 10 knots of wind. It's just a technique thing. And it's much easier to manage if you are not also steering?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I ordered the system that GW recommended (linked above) without the converter plate. It took like 3 weeks to arrive and I installed it yesterday. Fit without modification! Nice gizmo and an interesting solution to the problem. Mine is mounted upside down, so I have to pull the line up, which hits a lever and opens the jaws. We manually loaded the boom quite a bit to test it's function. The good: I can always release the sheet without having to stomp on it. The bad: Pulling up to open the jaws only releases the heavy load, then the gizmo stops working because the up-force on the lever equals the force on the cleat. I then need to jerk down as with a regular cleat to get the rope completely out. Ideally, it would be cool to just have the sheet release work in one motion, whereas now you yank up to release heavy load and after that's done, you yank down to release the sheet. Wish they had it in different trims also to fit the look of my other Harken gear, but still I am happy about the purchase.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Use it for awhile and it will become second nature. I usually hold it against the trigger and let it out that way until it is either as far out as I want it or the pressure relieved enough to drop it out of the cleat. Mine is mounted upside down and then rotated as high as possible.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites