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bodega87

Right in the ass

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So I see idiots on both boats. Lesseee here.... B Boat can't figure out how to keep a look out and even find out whether there were injuries or to say, "Gee, I'm saweee"

 

Boat with the sore ass is dragging shit in the water and the helmsman doesn't have a clue nor seem to care. He's still driving down the course. "Hey, ya gonna get your EPIRB?" says the crew. Whaa-a-at??? Ya mean we got sumpin in the water??? Yeah, like your whole stern pulpit, Oscar flag et al.

 

Hey doood, wakey-wakey.

 

It's actually classic for many boaters. In both cases, the driver just holds on and acts like nothing happened. Yup, that'll solve everything.

 

Boat names please. Skippers names please. It's a safety thing. NO ONE should sail with either of them!

 

(But then, this won't be my problem)

 

Then again, the comment about declining race participation etc, Do you REALLY think I'm going to put my boat on a course populated with 'those-who-have-no clue' ??????

Looks like your man Finnegan is no rookie. At 1:12 you can see a 1st place PHRF Championship logo on his jacket. Googled "Jerry Finnegan Celebrity" and found plenty of miles and trophies under his belt. A sampling of what comes up: Looks like he placed 1st in his class in this year's Ensenada Race, 3rd overall. 1st place 2012 Border Run, 2nd 2011. Transpac 2003 6th. SB to KH Race 2013 2nd place.

Then its even a bigger deal that he sailed off given with that sort of record he knows how to douse a kite and stand by in less than 500 boat lengths. It also puts him in deeper shit given 100% he knew he was in the wrong.

finegan is the guy on the cal.... Which begs the question, Why not show more of the tape?? Did Finnegan dick with the inexperienced bene skip so much that he just got pissed and wanted out?? I can totally see the mindset of an accomplished skip not wanting to let a POS inexpierienced Bene passing them to windword....... Need the rest of the tape.....

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US Sail puts out a nice laminated basic rules of the road card for a couple of bucks. It is a nice for the cockpit and new crew. I buy $20 of them and pass them on to people to have available. I think they help, but only can do so much. It is like navigation, if you go sailing around not looking at the chart you are bound to find a rock sooner or later....

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I'd guess the main trimmer (or someone else in the back of the bus) saw what was about to go down and pulled a little GoPro out of his pocket and hit record as fast as he could. What you see is all he was able to capture.

 

finegan is the guy on the cal.... Which begs the question, Why not show more of the tape?? Did Finnegan dick with the inexperienced bene skip so much that he just got pissed and wanted out?? I can totally see the mindset of an accomplished skip not wanting to let a POS inexpierienced Bene passing them to windword....... Need the rest of the tape.....

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Bene owner hired the wrong guy. He may need to re-post his ad

One add posted the pay scale as $35 per day?

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Bene owner hired the wrong guy. He may need to re-post his ad

One add posted the pay scale as $35 per day?

You get what you pay for. Avoiding crashes with Cal 40s in the middle of the largest ocean on the planet costs at least $40.

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The dude is driving a benetug, what do you expect?

 

 

Maybe I was a bit harsh but it is a pet peeve of mine that you see all time club racing. If its a match race all well and good. If its at the end of a long series and you and another guy are tied and so far ahead of third and fourth place that it wont change anything if you get chucked than thats cool to. Other than that its just stupid. You will do a whole hell of a lot better sailing your own race not dicking around with other boats and keeping the letters out of your score card. In short course racing just having to do two more tacks than everyone else can put you in the cheap seats it does not pay over the long haul to go off exploring the finer parts of the rule book with other boats. End of rant

Replied above before reading this. Couldn't agree more with your rant. Thanks.

#1 = Ditto #2 = Lesson learned again and again - Stay clear of anyone in a Benetug The boat under his shoes says everything about his sailing knowledge and common sense.

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So I see idiots on both boats. Lesseee here.... B Boat can't figure out how to keep a look out and even find out whether there were injuries or to say, "Gee, I'm saweee"

 

Boat with the sore ass is dragging shit in the water and the helmsman doesn't have a clue nor seem to care. He's still driving down the course. "Hey, ya gonna get your EPIRB?" says the crew. Whaa-a-at??? Ya mean we got sumpin in the water??? Yeah, like your whole stern pulpit, Oscar flag et al.

 

Hey doood, wakey-wakey.

 

It's actually classic for many boaters. In both cases, the driver just holds on and acts like nothing happened. Yup, that'll solve everything.

 

Boat names please. Skippers names please. It's a safety thing. NO ONE should sail with either of them!

 

(But then, this won't be my problem)

 

Then again, the comment about declining race participation etc, Do you REALLY think I'm going to put my boat on a course populated with 'those-who-have-no clue' ??????

Looks like your man Finnegan is no rookie. At 1:12 you can see a 1st place PHRF Championship logo on his jacket. Googled "Jerry Finnegan Celebrity" and found plenty of miles and trophies under his belt. A sampling of what comes up: Looks like he placed 1st in his class in this year's Ensenada Race, 3rd overall. 1st place 2012 Border Run, 2nd 2011. Transpac 2003 6th. SB to KH Race 2013 2nd place.

Then its even a bigger deal that he sailed off given with that sort of record he knows how to douse a kite and stand by in less than 500 boat lengths. It also puts him in deeper shit given 100% he knew he was in the wrong.

finegan is the guy on the cal.... Which begs the question, Why not show more of the tape?? Did Finnegan dick with the inexperienced bene skip so much that he just got pissed and wanted out?? I can totally see the mindset of an accomplished skip not wanting to let a POS inexpierienced Bene passing them to windword....... Need the rest of the tape.....

Gopro's do not kick on very quick I highly doubt on an ocean race that it was turned on and recording just prior to the video shown given the way the video starts off, the gopro clearly was being turned on and put into record mode just seconds before the hit. If that were not the case the Gopro would have been mounted some place and already been recording video not being hand held and dug out of the bottom of the cockpit as it starts recording.

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I really hope someone from the Bene comes forward to tell their side. I am fascinated to learn what the thought process was on board.

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I'd guess the main trimmer (or someone else in the back of the bus) saw what was about to go down and pulled a little GoPro out of his pocket and hit record as fast as he could. What you see is all he was able to capture.

that actually looks like what happened from the first couple seconds of footage. You can see the guys fingers coming away from the case after he starts it, on the Melges we did a bunch of GoPro stuff and the beginning of the captures are consistent with that, fingers and all.

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I love the guy on the 44.7 throwing up his hands like "Hey you scratched my anchor roller"

Slow Mo the video and you can see the anchor roller snaggltoothing the Cal and pulling all the shit off.

 

I Would have bet the 44.7 anchor roller would tear out of the bow, guess it's been recently re-torqued to meet French Industrial Safety Testing Experimental Depth of bolt penetration.

 

Fuckers should have stopped no matter what, you can't just crash into them and then lock the doors and drive off like you're in Brazil.

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The dude is driving a benetug, what do you expect?

 

 

 

 

Maybe I was a bit harsh but it is a pet peeve of mine that you see all time club racing. If its a match race all well and good. If its at the end of a long series and you and another guy are tied and so far ahead of third and fourth place that it wont change anything if you get chucked than thats cool to. Other than that its just stupid. You will do a whole hell of a lot better sailing your own race not dicking around with other boats and keeping the letters out of your score card. In short course racing just having to do two more tacks than everyone else can put you in the cheap seats it does not pay over the long haul to go off exploring the finer parts of the rule book with other boats. End of rant

Replied above before reading this. Couldn't agree more with your rant. Thanks.
#1 = Ditto #2 = Lesson learned again and again - Stay clear of anyone in a Benetug The boat under his shoes says everything about his sailing knowledge and common sense.
really? how? what do you sail and where? $100.00 you are another wannabe that have sailed all their 5 year old life.... I would love to take you in my boat in 40-50knots and see what you can do besides throwing up on my little Fig....or 36.

Touchy

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For fuck sake ya,ll sound like a bunch of j105 owners.

 

Mr Dragon needed to establish an overlap. That stern pulpit was in the way so he did what any reasonable beneteau owner would have done in a similar situation and removed the cal 40 pulpit that was impeding his right as a beneteau owner.

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Shit happens. No one died. Exchange insurance and move on people, nothing to see.

Stoopid question. Does boat insurance pay for damage when you are in a race? Most car insurance policies do not cover anything that happens in a sanctioned race.

Actually, at least in the US, it is common to have your policy cover racing. I don't know if it comes at a premium but I have been aboard several boats with big claims (lost rigs) and insurance came through. So maybe not so stoopid (sic).

Yep, Mine came through for me.

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I find it hard to belive that none of the crew from either yacht has not found this and brought the thread to its proper and deserving cresendo. SA must be loosing its mojo

Not exactly something to be proud of. Regardless of who had the ROW, it seems that both boats contributed to the end result by pressing the issue.

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willsailforfood (Post 65) this is a good example of why many protest committees pay little heed to video evidence.

 

Did the Cal 40 comply with Rule 15? was she gently luffing or was the tiller thrown over? No way to know without the video leading up to contact. Was the go-pro switched on right then or is there some judicious editing?

 

Just a question I would ask if sitting the other side of the table.

 

Re the validity of the protest comments made elsewhere: Rule 61.1(a) says nothing about immediate protest. In fact 61.1(d) specifically states that in cases like this neither hail nor flag is required at time of the incident.

 

You can download the Rulebook for free from www.sailing.org - more of us should read it from time to time ;-)

 

See ya on the water

 

SS

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Question. In distance races on open water is there not some point where COLREGS are in play. In my area we let COLREGS rules apply until harbour marks are made. Using this conclusion a radical course change to exercise rights that weren't there changes things ?

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Hard to imagine that rule 15 applies here as I can't imagine that the Cal had just established a right of way position. Unless the Cal has just broken the overlap from a weather position or has just completed a gybe the Cal has had the right-of-way for some time.

 

If the Cal has been clear ahead for some time, which is likely, the only restriction she has in maneuvering until an overlap is established are rules 14 and 16. Since it was a bow-stern collision I struggle to see how the Cal's move was a violation of rule 14, but, as others have written, there is much we don't know because we don't have footage from earlier in the incident. A case might be made that the Cal violated rule 16 by making a sharp move to weather, from the footage I think the Bene could have avoided the Cal's luff by luffing hard to weather, which she chose not to do. To avoid violating rule 16 the Cal needed to manuever in a manner that gave the Bene an out (which I think she did, the out being a luff to weather); the Cal does not need to maneuver in a manner to give the Bene her preferred out (a sudden duck). From the video it seems like the Bene made two wrong calls, (1) attempting to pass way to close to a boat clear ahead, which placed her in a vulnerable position and (2) attempting to duck when her only out was to luff hard to avoid the Cal. If you are an overtaking boat on the same tack you need to maintain sufficient distance (both fore-aft and port-stbd) to assure that you can safely respond to any and all maneuvers the boat ahead might make. The boat ahead is not required to restrict her maneuvers in anticipation of your overlap.

 

In a related rant I take issue with the notion that "It's a PHRF race, defending your air from a faster boat is a dick move". Unless there's a an active Cal40 One design fleet I'm unaware of, PHRF racing is the best racing the Cal owner can get; and getting rolled close aboard by a faster boat will assuredly cost the Cal owner time and diminish (albeit slightly) his chances of winning the race. The Cal owner has every right to defend his air from the Bene and doing so is decidedly NOT a dick move, it's sailboat racing. If you're in a faster boat and you don't want the slower boat to luff you, then either duck them or pass them well to windward.

 

willsailforfood (Post 65) this is a good example of why many protest committees pay little heed to video evidence.

 

Did the Cal 40 comply with Rule 15? was she gently luffing or was the tiller thrown over? No way to know without the video leading up to contact. Was the go-pro switched on right then or is there some judicious editing?

 

Just a question I would ask if sitting the other side of the table.

 

Re the validity of the protest comments made elsewhere: Rule 61.1(a) says nothing about immediate protest. In fact 61.1(d) specifically states that in cases like this neither hail nor flag is required at time of the incident.

 

You can download the Rulebook for free from www.sailing.org - more of us should read it from time to time ;-)

 

See ya on the water

 

SS

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willsailforfood (Post 65) this is a good example of why many protest committees pay little heed to video evidence.

 

In fact, I was just in a hearing a couple weeks ago where such evidence was admitted by the other boat. Their video essentially proved my statement and the protest was dismissed (they were protesting us).

 

Been doing this a few decades. It's been a few years since I had a bad outcome in the room, so I don't think I'll need any extra pointers, thanks.

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I find it hard to belive that none of the crew from either yacht has not found this and brought the thread to its proper and deserving cresendo. SA must be loosing its mojo

 

 

I dunno, maybe the thread title threw them off? :rolleyes:

 

Any chance that the o/p can add a little bait to the title to draw them in? :ph34r:

 

Just out of curiosity, anyone know where on the course this happened? I'm thinking just before Anacapa given the wind, light, and fog conditions. I don't think we came within 3 boat lengths of anyone the whole race, maybe the guys on the Cal never looked back until the end? Might explain the deer in the headlights response seen on the video. :blink:

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Question. In distance races on open water is there not some point where COLREGS are in play. In my area we let COLREGS rules apply until harbour marks are made. Using this conclusion a radical course change to exercise rights that weren't there changes things ?

No, COLREGS do not supersede RRS (except with respect to RRS 48 FOG SIGNALS AND LIGHTS; TRAFFIC SEPARATION SCHEMES), unless the Race Committee is foolish enough to make them applicable in a Sailing Instruction in accordance with RRS J2.2(2).

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Question. In distance races on open water is there not some point where COLREGS are in play. In my area we let COLREGS rules apply until harbour marks are made. Using this conclusion a radical course change to exercise rights that weren't there changes things ?

No, COLREGS do not supersede RRS (except with respect to RRS 48 FOG SIGNALS AND LIGHTS; TRAFFIC SEPARATION SCHEMES), unless the Race Committee is foolish enough to make them applicable in a Sailing Instruction in accordance with RRS J2.2(2).

 

COLREGs (or the current term, IRPCAS) cannot substitute for racing rules. They are a seperate body of rules, for a different purpose, with some similar forms and some differences. COLREGs have absolutely no provision for competing against another vessel to gain an advantageous position, nor for sorting out rights when two or more vessels are driving toward the same goal.

 

As an exercise, I sometimes have my advanced students sort out the similarities and difference between COLREGs and the RRS. It's an interesting exercise, and once a few years back some of them put on a demonstration about how the COLREGs do not work for trying to race another vessel. So this is not my own theory.

 

FB- Doug

 

Edit to add- when sailboats are racing, they agree to follow the racing rules. However there is nothing in the RRS which sets aside the COLREGs so it's a good thing they agree as much as they do, and COLREGS are embodied in law which of course the RRS are not.

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There are races that have minimum closing distance rules. For example, the Pac Cup requires all night closures to be greater than .25 miles.

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"Just out of curiosity, anyone know where on the course this happened? I'm thinking just before Anacapa given the wind, light, and fog conditions. I don't think we came within 3 boat lengths of anyone the whole race, maybe the guys on the Cal never looked back until the end? Might explain the deer in the headlights response seen on the video. :blink:"

 

 

 

You can see Anacapa Island in the backgroung and other boats with spinnakers flying behind them. They would of been running pretty deep for King Harbor or Heading up for Point Dume.

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It was definitely past Anacapa. We were somewhere south south west of point dume when we heard the radio calls. It was between 1800 & 2000. the radio call was something to the effect "hey, to the boat i just made contact with- is everybody ok?'

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The dude is driving a benetug, what do you expect?

 

 

Maybe I was a bit harsh but it is a pet peeve of mine that you see all time club racing. If its a match race all well and good. If its at the end of a long series and you and another guy are tied and so far ahead of third and fourth place that it wont change anything if you get chucked than thats cool to. Other than that its just stupid. You will do a whole hell of a lot better sailing your own race not dicking around with other boats and keeping the letters out of your score card. In short course racing just having to do two more tacks than everyone else can put you in the cheap seats it does not pay over the long haul to go off exploring the finer parts of the rule book with other boats. End of rant

Replied above before reading this. Couldn't agree more with your rant. Thanks.

#1 = Ditto #2 = Lesson learned again and again - Stay clear of anyone in a Benetug The boat under his shoes says everything about his sailing knowledge and common sense.

really? how? what do you sail and where? $100.00 you are another wannabe that have sailed all their 5 year old life.... I would love to take you in my boat in 40-50knots and see what you can do besides throwing up on my little Fig....or 36.

Another Benetugger proving my point.

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In addition, I'd like to offer some rules from our local Duck Dodge. It's friendly racing. Notice rules 2,3,5,7,9 and 11.

 

Over this summer there have been numerous collisions, some of them pretty serious, almost all of them involving pushing your right of way right up to a violation of rules 2,3,5,7,9 and 11.

 

Rules

Rule 1: Starboard Tack has Right of Way

Rule 2: Rules of the road apply

Rule 3: No hitting one-another(With or without boats)

Rule 4: Take all marks to PORT unless noted on Race Course

Rule 5: No hitting one-another

Rule 6: Bribing the committee is against the rules (while anybody is looking)

Rule 7: No hitting one-another

Rule 8: There is no rule number 8

Rule 9: No hitting one-another

Rule 10: Follow all the rules

Rule 11: No hitting one-another

Rule 12: Never make a duck change its course (Dodge the Duck)

 

Registration procedure: Sail by the committee boat before the start. Tell them your boat name and sail number. Be sure they acknowledge you. That's it!

 

There are no customs unless you go really way off course.

Don't forget Rule 13. All rules cease to be binding if broken.

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Bene owner hired the wrong guy. He may need to re-post his ad

One add posted the pay scale as $35 per day?

You get what you pay for. Avoiding crashes with Cal 40s in the middle of the largest ocean on the planet costs at least $40.

 

I was on a boat in the same family and I know the skipper paid a pro to come for a couple of 3-5 day events and the cost was over $1000/day, AND expenses.The guy was GOOD. We all learned a lot from him, but I don't think he was worth that much.

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Question. In distance races on open water is there not some point where COLREGS are in play. In my area we let COLREGS rules apply until harbour marks are made. Using this conclusion a radical course change to exercise rights that weren't there changes things ?

No, COLREGS do not supersede RRS (except with respect to RRS 48 FOG SIGNALS AND LIGHTS; TRAFFIC SEPARATION SCHEMES), unless the Race Committee is foolish enough to make them applicable in a Sailing Instruction in accordance with RRS J2.2(2).

I believe COLREGS are specified in the Sailing Instructions after dark for Southern Straits, Swiftsure, and Vic-Maui IIRC

 

COLREGs (or the current term, IRPCAS) cannot substitute for racing rules. They are a seperate body of rules, for a different purpose, with some similar forms and some differences. COLREGs have absolutely no provision for competing against another vessel to gain an advantageous position, nor for sorting out rights when two or more vessels are driving toward the same goal.

 

FB- Doug

 

Edit to add- when sailboats are racing, they agree to follow the racing rules. However there is nothing in the RRS which sets aside the COLREGs so it's a good thing they agree as much as they do, and COLREGS are embodied in law which of course the RRS are not.

Isn't it well established, in US courts anyway, not sure of other places, that boats racing have actually made a legal agreement to follow the RRS? ie Courts regularly uphold the RRS even when they conflict with COLREGS in relation to boats racing when making determinations of liability. So I would say the RRS are embodied in law, at least when talking about Civil Liability / Culpability.

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WTF big seas and this happened? Green what? Bene owner ,what a wanker and a dangerous fuck wit at that. Fucking dangerous twat.

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Say what you want, Green Dragon will be given mark room tonight. B)

That's funny. Best comment in this thread.

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Bene owner hired the wrong guy. He may need to re-post his ad

One add posted the pay scale as $35 per day?
You get what you pay for. Avoiding crashes with Cal 40s in the middle of the largest ocean on the planet costs at least $40.

I was on a boat in the same family and I know the skipper paid a pro to come for a couple of 3-5 day events and the cost was over $1000/day, AND expenses.The guy was GOOD. We all learned a lot from him, but I don't think he was worth that much.

Apparently your skipper didn't agree with you.

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... ...when sailboats are racing, they agree to follow the racing rules. However there is nothing in the RRS which sets aside the COLREGs so it's a good thing they agree as much as they do, and COLREGS are embodied in law which of course the RRS are not.

.

Isn't it well established, in US courts anyway, not sure of other places, that boats racing have actually made a legal agreement to follow the RRS? ie Courts regularly uphold the RRS even when they conflict with COLREGS in relation to boats racing when making determinations of liability. So I would say the RRS are embodied in law, at least when talking about Civil Liability / Culpability.

 

Well, I'm not a lawyer, so no I wouldn't say that

;)

 

Certainly there is precedent that the racing rules, and the decisions of protest committees, guide court decisions. However my personal observation is that US courts often don't follow precedent and can be kind of hazy on actual sure-enough real-live laws. Of the court cases I know about, the decision followed PC's decision pretty closely (actually that might be an interesting thread in itself). So yes, the courts should and often do follow the RRS but they aren't bound to do so.

 

FB- Doug

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Isn't it well established, in US courts anyway, not sure of other places, that boats racing have actually made a legal agreement to follow the RRS? ie Courts regularly uphold the RRS even when they conflict with COLREGS in relation to boats racing when making determinations of liability. So I would say the RRS are embodied in law, at least when talking about Civil Liability / Culpability.

 

Yes. The De Sole case by example: http://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/F2/947/1169/153348/

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The Green Dragon is no newbie; my very limited Ensenada experience, two races, was on the first dragon, a Catalina 380, and that was about 14 years ago. Gary's a nice enough guy, as proposed early in the thread. Smart. Flusterable. Saint of a long-suffering wife. But not new to the game.

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Looks like a classic port/starboard situation to me, but I agree, we need to see more footage.

? Both boats were on port. To me it was a classic overtaking boat failing to keep clear. From the comment coming from the Bene, I assume that they had been trying to get past the Cal for a while. Nothing justifies what happened and if they had any knowledge of the rules and basic protocol, they would have immediately dropped their spin and stood by ready to render assistance.

Yeah, my bad. I just looked at the position of the main after the collision.

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I, personally, never went faster by hitting someone. However, it is PHRF at its finest.

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Bene owner hired the wrong guy. He may need to re-post his ad

One add posted the pay scale as $35 per day?
You get what you pay for. Avoiding crashes with Cal 40s in the middle of the largest ocean on the planet costs at least $40.

I was on a boat in the same family and I know the skipper paid a pro to come for a couple of 3-5 day events and the cost was over $1000/day, AND expenses.The guy was GOOD. We all learned a lot from him, but I don't think he was worth that much.

Well thats in the range of what the big boys charge. However:

1. You're nuts of you blow that cash for the SB-KH race. Save it for the Benetug worlds

2. If you do hire a real pro, he or she's not going to let you rear end a Cal 40 in the middle of the blue Pacific.

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IMHO, regardless of what rules might have been broken by whom, it's still a dick move not to pull over and verify everything is ok before speeding off.. I don't think a call over the radio is sufficient..

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IMHO, regardless of what rules might have been broken by whom, it's still a dick move not to pull over and verify everything is ok before speeding off.. I don't think a call over the radio is sufficient..

They appear to be sailing in about 5 knots, were attached long enough to see everyone on board, mast still in the boat, less than heated conversation between crews and from the clip we do not know for sure who was at fault……..

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IMHO, regardless of what rules might have been broken by whom, it's still a dick move not to pull over and verify everything is ok before speeding off.. I don't think a call over the radio is sufficient..

They appear to be sailing in about 5 knots, were attached long enough to see everyone on board, mast still in the boat, less than heated conversation between crews and from the clip we do not know for sure who was at fault……..

Wrong on all accounts hope your not a boat owner. All rear ocean gear torn off the back of the Cal, would suggest sizable contact especially if you know anything about CAL's! Had it been the other way around the B boat owners would have gotten a ride home without a boat. Given the impact was enough to wipe out all the ocean required gear on the stern of the CAL - you never assume that your boat rigging forestay etc is intact after that sort of impact. You stop inspect your boat and render assistance to the boat you hit. Especially on a week night beer can race on the OCEAN.

 

This simply was an EPIC FAIL on the B boat owner regardless of who did what.

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IMHO, regardless of what rules might have been broken by whom, it's still a dick move not to pull over and verify everything is ok before speeding off.. I don't think a call over the radio is sufficient..

They appear to be sailing in about 5 knots, were attached long enough to see everyone on board, mast still in the boat, less than heated conversation between crews and from the clip we do not know for sure who was at fault……..

 

 

I have to disagree with you there... small collision talked about in this thread.. devastating results..

 

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=158937

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"Just out of curiosity, anyone know where on the course this happened? I'm thinking just before Anacapa given the wind, light, and fog conditions. I don't think we came within 3 boat lengths of anyone the whole race, maybe the guys on the Cal never looked back until the end? Might explain the deer in the headlights response seen on the video. :blink:"

 

 

 

You can see Anacapa Island in the backgroung and other boats with spinnakers flying behind them. They would of been running pretty deep for King Harbor or Heading up for Point Dume.

 

The Cal 40 "Celebrity" was one of a few boats that used the optional tracking system for the race - "Green Dragon" was not, unfortunately. You can see when their course changes as they drop sail and motor to King Harbor.

 

http://www.sailtracker.net/tracker/sb2kh2014

 

It looks like their heading changed around 18:50 towards Redondo Beach and speed dropped from 9kts to 6kts so I'm guessing this is around the point of collision. You can turn on "track markers" in the "map options" tab to get actual datapoints sent to the system.

 

As for Jerry's sailing capability - the record mentioned above speaks for itself. The Cal 40 was going relatively hot (typical strategy in this race is to go hot towards Pt Dume/Malibu) under spinnaker on port and Green Dragon was going lower (perhaps more of a Rhumb line approach) also on port, overtaking. In my opinion it would have been almost certain to avoid collision if Green Dragon had gone slightly deeper and ducked for a few yards; the Cal couldn't go much higher under spinnaker, and to go lower would have put them more squarely in Green Dragon's path.

 

From what I understand (second hand knowledge as I was not there) Green Dragon did eventually turn around and then retired, and the Cal 40 won the protest.

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"Just out of curiosity, anyone know where on the course this happened? I'm thinking just before Anacapa given the wind, light, and fog conditions. I don't think we came within 3 boat lengths of anyone the whole race, maybe the guys on the Cal never looked back until the end? Might explain the deer in the headlights response seen on the video. :blink:"

 

 

 

You can see Anacapa Island in the backgroung and other boats with spinnakers flying behind them. They would of been running pretty deep for King Harbor or Heading up for Point Dume.

 

The Cal 40 "Celebrity" was one of a few boats that used the optional tracking system for the race - "Green Dragon" was not, unfortunately. You can see when their course changes as they drop sail and motor to King Harbor.

 

http://www.sailtracker.net/tracker/sb2kh2014

 

It looks like their heading changed around 18:50 towards Redondo Beach and speed dropped from 9kts to 6kts so I'm guessing this is around the point of collision. You can turn on "track markers" in the "map options" tab to get actual datapoints sent to the system.

 

As for Jerry's sailing capability - the record mentioned above speaks for itself. The Cal 40 was going relatively hot (typical strategy in this race is to go hot towards Pt Dume/Malibu) under spinnaker on port and Green Dragon was going lower (perhaps more of a Rhumb line approach) also on port, overtaking. In my opinion it would have been almost certain to avoid collision if Green Dragon had gone slightly deeper and ducked for a few yards; the Cal couldn't go much higher under spinnaker, and to go lower would have put them more squarely in Green Dragon's path.

 

From what I understand (second hand knowledge as I was not there) Green Dragon did eventually turn around and then retired, and the Cal 40 won the protest.

Good to know but the eventually turned around and dropped out is a far cry from doing the right thing. I'd say Green Dragon has established a reputation that is quite serious. If I sailed in the fleet I both would be avoiding him and probably asking that he be told his season is over. Its one thing to screw up and take your time making it right vs simply sailing off with a "F- U " lobbed at the boat you just fucked up.

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Post 129: Maggie40738 "Hard to imagine"

well Maggie, the first part of any proper jury decision is "Facts Found!" no imagination. The video presents NO evidence of the actions of the boats leading up to the collision, courses, rates of turn, a contnious turn or a sharp course correction, warning shouts etc. These are all vital if any jury is able to decide if sufficient time was given for the give way boat to keep clear.

 

It doesn't matter how stupid anyone considers the give way boat for trying to pass so close to windward, the video starts far too late to give any decent jury the 'back story' if you like.

 

Stupid that they collided in an open ocean like that and they weren't exactly flying along so should have had all the time in the world to plan their overtake.

 

Willsailforfood post 131

2 points - I stand by what i said about it being a good example of why video evidence is often not allowed. This video does nothing to show how much time the Cal 40 did (or didn't) give the B44.7 which is extremely relevant to Rule 15.

 

It is a known fact (Fact Found) that a telephoto lens foreshortens perspective and a wide angle (like on a goPro) increases percieved distance when comared to the human eye's normal view and that along with a video perhaps not telling the whole story (as with the one on the front page) makes should make juries 'cautious when viewing videos in fact I have known of International Juries even refusing to accept them at all and the video on the front page almost starts 'after the fact'.

 

I do think it is amusing that your protestor was 'hoisted by his own petard' when he tried to use the video against the boat you were on - kind of a case of 'be sure which side the witness is on when you call them'. :-)

 

My comment wasn't personal and I apologise if it appeared so just voicing my opinion which is the beauty of the SA Forums, don't ya think.

 

See ya on the water - come visit sometime.

 

SS

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Bene owner hired the wrong guy. He may need to re-post his ad

One add posted the pay scale as $35 per day?
You get what you pay for. Avoiding crashes with Cal 40s in the middle of the largest ocean on the planet costs at least $40.

I was on a boat in the same family and I know the skipper paid a pro to come for a couple of 3-5 day events and the cost was over $1000/day, AND expenses.The guy was GOOD. We all learned a lot from him, but I don't think he was worth that much.

Well thats in the range of what the big boys charge. However:

1. You're nuts of you blow that cash for the SB-KH race. Save it for the Benetug worlds

2. If you do hire a real pro, he or she's not going to let you rear end a Cal 40 in the middle of the blue Pacific.

 

Well that's the thing. Someone said dragon was offering like $35/day. I don't think that will get you a real pro.

 

Thats what I'm

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Who let the CAT Out

 

Who - Who - Who

 

 

Who let the CAT Out

 

Who - Who - Who

 

 

Who let the CAT Out

 

Who - Who - Who

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off your meds again woodman??

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Question. In distance races on open water is there not some point where COLREGS are in play. In my area we let COLREGS rules apply until harbour marks are made. Using this conclusion a radical course change to exercise rights that weren't there changes things ?

Dont know about there, but in this part of the world, COLREGS ALWAYS apply, ALWAYS, they cannot be overridden, discarded, forgotten about, by race rules. Ever.

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Question. In distance races on open water is there not some point where COLREGS are in play. In my area we let COLREGS rules apply until harbour marks are made. Using this conclusion a radical course change to exercise rights that weren't there changes things ?

Dont know about there, but in this part of the world, COLREGS ALWAYS apply, ALWAYS, they cannot be overridden, discarded, forgotten about, by race rules. Ever.

Maybe in Qld, but not everywhere in Aus

 

 

[New South Wales] Marine Safety (General) Regulation 2009

Current version for 4 July 2014 to date (accessed 9 August 2014 at 23:55)

Schedule 2

<< page >>

Schedule 2 International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea

(Clause 5)

Part A General

 

1 Application

 

(a)

These Rules shall apply to all vessels upon the high seas and in all waters connected therewith navigable by seagoing ships.

(B)

Nothing in these Rules shall interfere with the operation of special rules made by an appropriate authority for roadstead, harbours, rivers, lakes or inland waterways connected with the high seas and navigable by seagoing ships. Such special rules shall conform as closely as possible to these Rules.

©

Nothing in these Rules shall interfere with the operation of any special rules made by the Government of any State with respect to additional station or signal lights, shapes or whistle signals for ships of war and vessels proceeding under convoy, or with respect to additional station or signal lights or shapes for fishing vessels engaged in fishing as a fleet. These additional station or signal lights, shapes or whistle signals shall, so far as possible, be such that they cannot be mistaken for any light, shape or signal authorized elsewhere under these Rules.

(d)

Traffic separation schemes may be adopted by the Organisation for the purpose of these Rules.

(e)

Whenever the Minister concerned shall have determined that a vessel of special construction or purpose cannot comply fully with the provisions of any of these Rules with respect to the number, position, range or arc of visibility of lights or shapes, as well as to the disposition and characteristics of sound-signalling appliances, such vessel shall comply with such other provisions in regard to the number, position, range or arc of visibility of lights or shapes, as well as to the disposition and characteristics of sound-signalling appliances, as the Minister shall have determined to be the closest possible compliance with these Rules in respect of that vessel.

 

NSW special Rule

 

(1)

Despite Rule 1 (a), these Rules extend to vessels in all navigable waters.

(2)

These Rules do not apply to vessels taking part in an aquatic activity if the aquatic licence that authorises the activity provides for a different set of rules to be applied. However, these Rules do apply if there is a risk of collision between a vessel taking part in the aquatic activity and a vessel that is not taking part in the aquatic activity.

(3)

An unoccupied vessel is exempt from the provisions of these Rules if it is:

(a) secured under the authority of, and in accordance with the conditions, attached to an occupation licence issued under the Management of Waters and Waterside Lands Regulations—N.S.W., or

(B) it is lawfully occupying any navigable waters by direction of, or with the permission of, the Crown or any other person or body lawfully entitled to give such a direction or permission.

(4)

Subrule (3) does not apply to a vessel secured to a shipping mooring.

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Isn't it well established, in US courts anyway, not sure of other places, that boats racing have actually made a legal agreement to follow the RRS? ie Courts regularly uphold the RRS even when they conflict with COLREGS in relation to boats racing when making determinations of liability. So I would say the RRS are embodied in law, at least when talking about Civil Liability / Culpability.

 

Yes. The De Sole case by example: http://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/F2/947/1169/153348/

Perhaps the better and more recent authority is

 

Juno v Endeavour http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-1st-circuit/1316530.html

 

De Sole was a somewhat bizarre case where the USN attempted to welsh on damages for a Clear Ahead/Clear Astern rule breach by a Navy yacht claiming voluntary assumption of risk.

 

Juno v Endeavour, also an appeal case, where one of the Judges was also a sailing International Judge was the case that said that boats that agree to sail under the RRS are bound by the RRS and not COLREGS.

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Question. In distance races on open water is there not some point where COLREGS are in play. In my area we let COLREGS rules apply until harbour marks are made. Using this conclusion a radical course change to exercise rights that weren't there changes things ?

Dont know about there, but in this part of the world, COLREGS ALWAYS apply, ALWAYS, they cannot be overridden, discarded, forgotten about, by race rules. Ever.

The COLREGs, or as someone pointed out, IRPCAS, always, always, always apply. They are a set of rules that participating governments have agreed to embody in their own domestic legislation, in their own way. Let's, reasonably, assume that the US government has indeed embodied them in domestic law. That means that they are in effect for the race in question.

 

The first part of the first rule is:

 

1.a These Rules shall apply to all vessels upon the high seas and in all waters connected therewith navigable by seagoing vessels.

 

The RRS is essentially a set of rules put together by sailors to govern how boats should behave when taking part in racing. Some of the RRS reflect principles included in IRPCAS, probably because they just make sense. I would view the RRS as an extra set of rules for the racing sailor, not a different set. IRPCAS comes first.

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If you are racing in the US and there comes a point where RRS and COLREGS conflict and damage or injury occurs between your vessel and another racing vessel the court will use RRS to assign liability.

 

that still doesn't mean that COLREGS don't apply.

 

Capiche?

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Green dragon fucked up. Majorly. Well I mean when driving down the road you don't just rear end someone right? GD was overtaking in that moment- they should've been tossed as soon as contact was made. There's no reason for that. Anyways the bene shouldn't have been in the same zip code as the cal...

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Funny.... Have not heard so many "If", "Shouldn't". "I Think", "need to see more video". "where I sail....", "it seems" , "in my opinion", "someone said".

 

Like someone said, opinions are like assholes.....................

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If you are racing in the US and there comes a point where RRS and COLREGS conflict and damage or injury occurs between your vessel and another racing vessel the court will use RRS to assign liability.

that still doesn't mean that COLREGS don't apply.

Capiche?

No argument here.

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If the Cal 40 was defending his wind by luffing he runs into the scope of Rule 16.1. Rule 17 underlines the need to keep a "normal course". Since we do not see the run up to the contact with the position of the boats, it is difficult to judge but I sense that lack of seamanship and particularly of knowledge of the rules of racing led to this collision.

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If the Cal 40 was defending his wind by luffing he runs into the scope of Rule 16.1. Rule 17 underlines the need to keep a "normal course". Since we do not see the run up to the contact with the position of the boats, it is difficult to judge but I sense that lack of seamanship and particularly of knowledge of the rules of racing led to this collision.

 

Rule 17 specifies proper course which is a defined term... definitions are rules, now located in the front of the rule book; and Rule 17 does not apply between boats where the leeward of them is clear ahead.

 

Looking at the video, it appears to me that the astern boat was not altering course at all. They looked to be just sailing straight on, and considering that they hit the other boat ON THE TRANSOM there is no way the other boat did not have right-of-way.

 

It is possible that the Cal 40 broke Rule 16 (right-of-way boats must allow room to keep clear when they alter course) but if I were on the Protest Committee, I'd be looking for a pretty radical alteration of course on the part of Green Dragon.... there isn't one, they were not making much attempt (if any at all) to keep clear.

 

FWIW I agree that the video would be much better if it showed the minute or so prior to the actual collision, but the cameraman may have been taken by surprise.

 

FB- Doug

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The only excuse I can possibly think of for Green is that if the Cal 40 had just gybed in front of them and the vid doesn't show it.

 

But I doubt it

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If the Cal 40 was defending his wind by luffing he runs into the scope of Rule 16.1. Rule 17 underlines the need to keep a "normal course". Since we do not see the run up to the contact with the position of the boats, it is difficult to judge but I sense that lack of seamanship and particularly of knowledge of the rules of racing led to this collision.

 

Rule 17 specifies proper course which is a defined term... definitions are rules, now located in the front of the rule book; and Rule 17 does not apply between boats where the leeward of them is clear ahead.

 

Looking at the video, it appears to me that the astern boat was not altering course at all. They looked to be just sailing straight on, and considering that they hit the other boat ON THE TRANSOM there is no way the other boat did not have right-of-way.

 

It is possible that the Cal 40 broke Rule 16 (right-of-way boats must allow room to keep clear when they alter course) but if I were on the Protest Committee, I'd be looking for a pretty radical alteration of course on the part of Green Dragon.... there isn't one, they were not making much attempt (if any at all) to keep clear.

This.

 

A"proper course" or "normal course" in a race should always include luffing/rolling/etc. an opponent in close quarters. Because if they don't try these things, we'd make fun of them for not doing it after we passed them.

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The Bene owes them AT LEAST 120 seconds a mile.. really?

 

That specific Beneteau 44.7 owes the Cal40 EXACTLY 75 seconds per mile.

 

 

>I can assure you that Bene had legs all over the C40 before any of this happened.

 

Why they were even behind at that point is another question (unless they were lapping the B40)... you really have to f#@% things up on the weather leg to end up behind a boat owing you 2 min+ a mile.

 

Sort of explains a lot, don't you think? On that day, in that race, that specific Beneteau 44.7 appears to not be sailing to their rating, eh? Could be simply bad luck or...

_________

 

I'll say it again: you get two clueless racers close to each other on the race course, you better start pre-dialing the insurance companies well before establishing the overlap.

 

the only ones clueless here are you and the guy driving the Bene-slow. Clearly the Cal, miles offshore, got hit in the rear by a much faster over taking boat that literally spun them around. What should they have done !!!! stayed at home. Judging by the amount of your posts you clearly don't sail much, since you too busy posting bullshit. If I were you I would get out and do a little one design sailing and learn a thing or two,

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I don't think there is any set of rules, be they RRS, COLREGS, or Hoyle's Rules of Games, that relieves a skipper of the responsibility to avoid a collision, regardless which vessel is stand-on or give-way. It is my understanding that there is no such thing as "right-of-way" at sea for that very reason.

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The Cal 40 was hit from behind by a faster boat... not sure what they could have done to avoid a collision, guess which way the Bennie was going to go and go the other?

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I don't think there is any set of rules, be they RRS, COLREGS, or Hoyle's Rules of Games, that relieves a skipper of the responsibility to avoid a collision, regardless which vessel is stand-on or give-way. It is my understanding that there is no such thing as "right-of-way" at sea for that very reason.

If you don't know the rules don't make stuff up.

 

Racing Rules of Sailing Rule 14 AVOIDING CONTACT

A boat shall avoid contact with another boat if reasonably possible. However, a right-of-way boat or one entitled to room or mark-room

( a ) need not act to avoid contact until it is clear that the other boat is not keeping clear or giving room or mark-room, and

( b ) shall be exonerated if she breaks this rule and the contact does not cause damage or injury.

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Thats the reason I would have been looking to hook up with the quarter wake of the Bene and hoping another fast one was coming up right after so i could do it again

 

+100

 

Assuming the Cal 40 skipper is a keen racer, "hooking up" is an arrow in one's quiver to be taken advantage of in distance racing around other boats when under spinnaker (upwind, not so much, too much blanketing). The slow boats start first and are overtaken by the (bigger) fast boats. In light to moderate conditions a slightly slower boat can ride the quarter wave of a faster boat for miles, at the speed of the faster boat. Hooking up with a much faster boat doesn't last as long but you still get a push. Technique is to maneuver as the fast boat approaches so it passes close aboard when you have good speed, then catch her wake on her hip and sail the same course as them until you get spit out. If you are to windward you can soak a little when you lose it and catch her leeward wave and ride it for an extra while.

 

Years ago in the Catalina Island Series races (mainly kite reaches back to the mainland) there was a huge tub of a boat that was in the fastest class start after our start and rated maybe 30 seconds a mile faster in a perfect situation. Upwind she was less than stellar and took hours to catch up. We'd bino its approach and maneuver radically (soaking, gybing, pinching for miles across the course) just so we could get in front of her and hit her sweet wake because reaching she raged and made the biggest wake you've ever seen. Mind you, this is boats fifty apart during the whole maneuver with the slow boat gettin' the tow from fifty feet back. After a bunch of pickle dishes, others in our fleet figured it out and it became a parade in our fleet to gather around this boat as it approached from astern. Then the guy quit racing and we were all left to our own devices.

 

This topic situation is of course not salient. Hooking up does not involve close quarters. What I want to know is why you dumfucks don't know about this and maybe the Cal40 was just looking for a hookup and Green Dragon got its feathers ruffled and screwed up big time. I mean, damage to the stern from an overtaking boat (assuming the Cal 40 was maneuvering to avoid collsion) is damning evidence.

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willsailforfood (Post 65) this is a good example of why many protest committees pay little heed to video evidence.

In fact, I was just in a hearing a couple weeks ago where such evidence was admitted by the other boat. Their video essentially proved my statement and the protest was dismissed (they were protesting us).

 

Been doing this a few decades. It's been a few years since I had a bad outcome in the room, so I don't think I'll need any extra pointers, thanks.

Carefully you don't get a nose bleed up there on the high ground old mate. As I recall you were one of the main 'she is going to die' posters back in the Jessica Watson shit fight threads. But it seems you don't need a 16 year old girl to make you look like a clown. You can do it all by yourself. Get over yourself mate.

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I don't think there is any set of rules, be they RRS, COLREGS, or Hoyle's Rules of Games, that relieves a skipper of the responsibility to avoid a collision, regardless which vessel is stand-on or give-way. It is my understanding that there is no such thing as "right-of-way" at sea for that very reason.

If you don't know the rules don't make stuff up.

 

>Racing Rules of Sailing Rule 14 AVOIDING CONTACT

A boat shall avoid contact with another boat if reasonably possible. However, a right-of-way boat or one entitled to room or mark-room

( a ) need not act to avoid contact until it is clear that the other boat is not keeping clear or giving room or mark-room, and

( b ) shall be exonerated if she breaks this rule and the contact does not cause damage or injury.

 

I stand corrected.

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Wait....What? A SA member publicly agrees someone else is right?

 

i rubbed topsides with another J24 to keep them from barging a start. Nothing serious, no exchange of paint. At the time I thought it was good sailing and the other guy didn't come up fast enough. In hindsight I was a dick. I should have told him "no room" and come up slowly enough to avoid contact. Funny how age changes perspective. The guy I bumped was a good guy and had the class to straighten me out privately later. Thems was the good ole days

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..I should have told him "no room" and come up slowly enough to avoid contact. Funny how age changes perspective. The guy I bumped was a good guy and had the class to straighten me out privately later. Thems was the good ole days

 

OTH, it sounds as though you got sorted out as to the rules without a protest hearing, and that's great, but not everyone is so willing to be informally educated as you were in this case. I'm only posting because of your apparent implication here that this was better than having a hearing (if you weren't implying that, then please forgive the post). While I'm glad that you got sorted without one, it's also true that a hearing would have (or at least, should have) removed any doubt about the rules, and should have made the situation clear for both you and anyone else interested (it may have been clear anyway, of course, but we don't know that from your post).

 

No disrespect intended, and not trying to be a scold, but I'm arguing here for the value of protest hearings in general as ways to clarify the rules for all concerned. It's certainly true that PCs sometimes misinterpret the rules and/or can get the facts wrong (though the latter happens more often when the parties don't work together to accurately describe the situation to the panel), but on balance, I would still assert that having a hearing in such a case is a service to both the sport an your fellow sailors. I submit that we've allowed the protest process to get too adversarial, and so too far removed from its original purpose, which was to clarify rules in as cooperative and non-confrontational a manner as possible. As a consequence, too many people are loth to go into the protest room for fear of the personal judgements they worry await them there. It sounds like your case would have been one in which such a non-confrontational ideal might have been preserved, and that in that circumstance, not having a hearing was an opportunity lost.

 

All that said, thanks for being willing to have a positive and productive discussion about it in the bar, even if not in the room! :)

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Some newbs respond well to a beer and education afterwards, some don't.

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....Perhaps the better and more recent authority is

 

Juno v Endeavour http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-1st-circuit/1316530.html

 

Brass, thanks for that cite, which I hadn't read yet. A remarkably clear decision, with comparatively little legalese in the way. I think it does a great job of explaining the relationship between the RRS and the IRPCAS for racing yachts, about which there appears to be some (understandable) confusion in this thread.

 

I'm not a lawyer, but it looks to me like that (US) appeals court held that racing yachts essentially enter into a binding contractual agreement to dispense with the IRPCAS in favor of the RRS for the duration of and among boats racing in a race. That agreement doesn't invalidate the IRPCAS, it just says that all those racing will voluntarily use the RRS to govern their maneuvers on the water, and use the process specified in the RRS to find fault in the case of a collision or other breach. The court seems to have held that while the IRPCAS remain in effect, it is perfectly permissable for boats to make a common agreement (contract) to race according to other rules. (For anyone who's been wondering why the RRS guide to NOR/SI in Appendix J requires (in J1.1(2) and J2.1(1)) that they contain the agreement to be bound by the RRS, this is the answer).

 

The RRS (67) also say that damages will be assessed according the the dictates of the national authority, and in the US, US Sailing's prescription to that rule says (in relevant part) that adjudication for damages is "...subject to the jurisdiction of the courts" (67b), but that (paraphrasing) the legal doctrine of "assumption of risk" cited by the Navy in the DeSole case is not applicable when it comes to finding fault for the collision (see 67c).

 

Just out of curiosity, which judge was also an IJ, and how do you know?

 

Thanks again for the typically enlightening post!

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....Perhaps the better and more recent authority is

 

Juno v Endeavour http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-1st-circuit/1316530.html

 

Brass, thanks for that cite, which I hadn't read yet. A remarkably clear decision, with comparatively little legalese in the way. I think it does a great job of explaining the relationship between the RRS and the IRPCAS for racing yachts, about which there appears to be some (understandable) confusion in this thread.

 

I'm not a lawyer, but it looks to me like that (US) appeals court held that racing yachts essentially enter into a binding contractual agreement to dispense with the IRPCAS in favor of the RRS for the duration of and among boats racing in a race.

 

Yup, blowed if I know what the consideration was, but that's what Juno v Endeavour and Satanita stood for.

 

Note that the IRPCAS don't apply in their own right, except on the high seas as a means of resolving commercial disputes: Coastal and inland, they require a domestic law to apply them. What Tourrella j said was that the US laws applying the IRPCAS did not prevent privately 'contracting out', (and Satanita said the same about UK law) but different laws might have different effects.

 

That agreement doesn't invalidate the IRPCAS, it just says that all those racing will voluntarily use the RRS to govern their maneuvers on the water,

 

Yes, but I am inclined to think that a boat alleging breach of some other IRPCAS provisions like Rule 5 Lookout, Rule 6 Safe Speed and the like, might be on a winner.

 

and use the process specified in the RRS to find fault in the case of a collision or other breach.

 

That's what Tourrella j said. Maybe other judges, more precious about 'ousting the jurisdiction of the courts' might hold differently, but in the USA they would have to be on the Supreme Court for it to stick.

 

I would also not be surprised to find a court stepping in to override an egregiously bad protest committee decision.

 

The court seems to have held that while the IRPCAS remain in effect, it is perfectly permissable for boats to make a common agreement (contract) to race according to other rules. (For anyone who's been wondering why the RRS guide to NOR/SI in Appendix J requires (in J1.1(2) and J2.1(1)) that they contain the agreement to be bound by the RRS, this is the answer).

 

Also to give more binding effect to rules 3( b ) and 3( c ).

 

The RRS (67) also say that damages will be assessed according the the dictates of the national authority,

 

Whoa there pardner. Don't paraphrase the rules. What rule 67 says is that IF there is a MNA prescription, that is how the question of damages shall be governed. Most common law countries have prescriptions saying that protest committees should have nothing to do with assessment of damages. Some European countries don't have any prescription in respect of rule 67.

 

and in the US, US Sailing's prescription to that rule says (in relevant part) that adjudication for damages is "...subject to the jurisdiction of the courts" (67b),

 

But more importantly, it says 'No protest committee or US Sailing appeal authority shall adjudicate any claim for damages'.

 

but that (paraphrasing) the legal doctrine of "assumption of risk" cited by the Navy in the DeSole case is not applicable when it comes to finding fault for the collision (see 67c).

 

You have slipped a legal cog here. Voluntary assumption of risk is a defence against the recovery of damages where fault has been found: the concept does not affect whether or not there is fault.

 

Just out of curiosity, which judge was also an IJ, and how do you know?

 

Judge Tourrella.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_R._Torruella

 

Didn't everybody know that? Certainly when Mary Pera was alive and writing on this issue, it was frequently mentioned (although, lord knows the case was 20 years ago)..

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Yup, blowed if I know what the consideration was, but that's what Juno v Endeavour and Satanita stood for.

 

Does the word "consideration" extend to being given like protection in the contract as well as the privilege of competing, or must there be cash involved?

 

I would also not be surprised to find a court stepping in to override an egregiously bad protest committee decision.

 

Nor I, but how would they recognize such a decision? History is not rich with examples, as far as I know.

 

The RRS (67) also say that damages will be assessed according the the dictates of the national authority,

 

Whoa there pardner. Don't paraphrase the rules. What rule 67 says is that IF there is a MNA prescription, that is how the question of damages shall be governed. Most common law countries have prescriptions saying that protest committees should have nothing to do with assessment of damages. Some European countries don't have any prescription in respect of rule 67.

 

Guilty as charged - missed the "if any" phrase, and insufficiently familiar with other countries' prescriptions. Thanks.

 

but that (paraphrasing) the legal doctrine of "assumption of risk" cited by the Navy in the DeSole case is not applicable when it comes to finding fault for the collision (see 67c).

 

You have slipped a legal cog here. Voluntary assumption of risk is a defence against the recovery of damages where fault has been found: the concept does not affect whether or not there is fault.

 

...and I guess we now know why I'm not a lawyer! :) From reading the abstracts of this and the DeSole case, it looked like both courts were referring to the use of assumption of risk in relation to the finding of fault. (In both cases to say it was not relevant, except for the dissent in DeSole, which seemed to say it was). I don't doubt you're right, but I'll re-read.

 

Just out of curiosity, which judge was also an IJ, and how do you know?

 

Judge Tourrella.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_R._Torruella

 

Didn't everybody know that? Apparently not. :unsure: Certainly when Mary Pera was alive and writing on this issue, it was frequently mentioned (although, lord knows the case was 20 years ago).. I never read Mary Pera on this issue, so missed that. Interesting that the Wikipedia article mentions Judge Toruella's sailing career, but not his service as a sailing judge. Thanks for the info.

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I was at the boatyard when Endeavour got "arrested" in Maine as part of that case. Came as a bit of a surprise to the boat and was a bit of a mess. Interesting case.

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