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Hutch in Maxim

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We love Hutch, but there is no way sailing will ever be the next F1. Period. Take a read of this good Maxim Interview…


Terry Hutchinson is a sailing legend. The 46-year-old America’s Cup vet has been at the tiller since he was a kid and on the circuit since he was 13. But the former helmsman turned Executive Vice President at Quantum Sail Design Group is currently landlocked. He will not compete for Oracle Team USA in 2017 or for his previous team, Artemis Racing, which represents Sweden. The reason is simple: Hutchinson doesn’t think the boats are safe. He said as much during the last Cup campaign and lost his job over it.


I had a massive falling out with the owner of the team and the CEO about the safety of our yacht so they decided to terminate me. Ten weeks after my argument with the owner about the safety of the Artemis boat, the boat capsized in the San Francisco bay and one of the sailors was killed. It was a known thing that the boat was not safe. It was a tragedy. The guy that was killed was a good person and a father.”



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And Team Arte-Fucking-Mis is still shrouded in secrecy as to what caused Big Red to break apart like Swedish Krisproll...Paul, are you listening? Or is it simply that Juan K should stick with designinig monohulls?

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That is filled with so many amazing quotes I don't know where to begin. Other than to say I am even more impressed w TH now.

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He concludes that the AC was better when the teams were composed of nationals. Then he talks about how he has been involved the last few times on the TNZ and then Art. teams, and how great it was. If those had been national teams then he wouldn't have gotten to race because there was not an American team with a crew slot available to him...so he is saying that the America's Cup in those editions where he raced on a non-USA team would be better if he hadn't participated. It's Terry Hutchinson, so he must be right...

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He concludes that the AC was better when the teams were composed of nationals. Then he talks about how he has been involved the last few times on the TNZ and then Art. teams, and how great it was. If those had been national teams then he wouldn't have gotten to race because there was not an American team with a crew slot available to him...so he is saying that the America's Cup in those editions where he raced on a non-USA team would be better if he hadn't participated. It's Terry Hutchinson, so he must be right...

 

I read it was hoping that the Cup would return to some sort of national event. Underlying all that was the unspoken hope that maybe another American would enter, though not likely to happen until GGYC loses.

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Looks like Hutch just sealed his fate or the interviewer took some liberties..... At least now we can stop speculating on his demise with AR.

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Am just glad TH is happy and still doing well, while doing things he's much better cut out for, both skills and age-wise, than with what the current AC action is all about.

 

When he parted with Artemis both sides said it was a mutual agreement; apparently it was. Since Cayard expressed many of the same Safety concerns ('this damn AC72 Class is better off in SD than SF') well it's possible that he was fine with departing for reasons along those lines too.

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Cayard stood in front of the press and stated that their boat falling apart and the resulting death had been an unpredictable accident - I guess you're fine with him forgetting to mention that he sacked a senior member of the team a few months before for pointing out the looming disaster?

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Nice try nav, but open your mind: it's not about me.

 

Quite obviously PC would have fixed whatever the problem was if he was aware of an imminent breakage. He sailed on that boat, many times.

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Nice try nav, but open your mind: it's not about me.

 

Quite obviously PC would have fixed whatever the problem was if he was aware of an imminent breakage. He sailed on that boat, many times.

 

That's a big ask.

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Russell's probably thinking, c'mon Terry, why you being so negative?? haha

Credit to TH for winning the overall ACWS Match Racing Title.

 

But IIRC then RC cleaned his clock in ACWS SF.

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Safety is still an issue because the boats are still "too big to crash". Until they sort that out the AC is not sustainable and TH deserves credit for continuing to point out that the emperor has no clothes.

 

I suspect the sailors will look back at AC34 and AC35 and wonder why they put their lives at risk for a boat race. Like the way drivers look back at F1 in its early days when deaths occurred almost every year. I guess people get caught up in the competition and the financial rewards and common sense disappears out the window.

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He concludes that the AC was better when the teams were composed of nationals. Then he talks about how he has been involved the last few times on the TNZ and then Art. teams, and how great it was. If those had been national teams then he wouldn't have gotten to race because there was not an American team with a crew slot available to him...so he is saying that the America's Cup in those editions where he raced on a non-USA team would be better if he hadn't participated. It's Terry Hutchinson, so he must be right...

 

Some people can see past their own personal interests, and look to the interests of a sport as a whole.

 

What is wrong with TH saying that, while he enjoyed racing for foreign teams, that situation is bad for the AC? It's similar to the fact that some of us personally like it when races are held in gale force winds, but recognise that doing so may turn off the middle and tail end of the fleet and therefore be bad for a class as a whole.

 

Good on TH for seeing things so clearly and being so honest.

 

PS - from some points of view, TH seems to reckon the AC should me more like F1 - because F1 no longer accepts the high death rate it used to have. On average, one driver died per year until the '70s; now there have been no deaths for 20 years.

 

If F1 doesn't accept fatalities, why should the AC?

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Fireball (my favorite racing, ever, do you sail them?) ^ I like to think that the AC62 will be a smarter Design Rule for both Safety and Speed.

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^ TH was making a marketing comment in bringing up nationality. He's an Annapolis guy, and so probably steeped in patriotism even if it weren't also out of self interest.

 

His point about the AC being mostly a Billionaire's game over its history should point to where nationality matters most when the rubber meets the road. It's not, as he suggests, about the sailing crew, except for in the (possible) little marketing bump.

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Russell's probably thinking, c'mon Terry, why you being so negative?? haha

Credit to TH for winning the overall ACWS Match Racing Title.

 

But IIRC then RC cleaned his clock in ACWS SF.

Weighted king posts and all!

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Safety is still an issue because the boats are still "too big to crash". Until they sort that out the AC is not sustainable and TH deserves credit for continuing to point out that the emperor has no clothes.

 

I suspect the sailors will look back at AC34 and AC35 and wonder why they put their lives at risk for a boat race. Like the way drivers look back at F1 in its early days when deaths occurred almost every year. I guess people get caught up in the competition and the financial rewards and common sense disappears out the window.

Whadaya mean the Emperor has no clothes???

 

Can't you see the beautiful cloak handwoven from Kiwi Ingenuity Unobtainium by Sir Rus?

Stingray told me so...., it must be true. He is so clear sighted compared to we uninformed.

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If F1 doesn't accept fatalities, why should the AC?

 

Who is saying they should ?

 

Why don't you ask why teams should be allowed to argue against proposed safety regulations by the regatta director ?

 

Risks are inherent in the sport, and sailing fatalities occur all to frequently, very few in the AC.

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I appreciate his comments, but he leads a charmed life! Even with the risk, I'd jump in there in a second! I'm guessing many in this crowd would fight for the chance to risk it all and say they participated in the AC. Where do I sign up?

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I had a massive falling out with the owner of the team and the CEO about the safety of our yacht so they decided to terminate me.

 

If that's true, he should have said so publicly after he was sacked.

 

To have said nothing at the time but make the claim a year later is pretty repulsive.

 

For many of us, watching the footage, hearing the hyperventilation, it seemed clear he was out of his depth sailing these boats and that, presumably, was why he was sacked.

 

I know many here like and admire TH. I can't share the sentiment.

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I had a massive falling out with the owner of the team and the CEO about the safety of our yacht so they decided to terminate me.

 

If that's true, he should have said so publicly after he was sacked.

 

To have said nothing at the time but make the claim a year later is pretty repulsive.

 

For many of us, watching the footage, hearing the hyperventilation, it seemed clear he was out of his depth sailing these boats and that, presumably, was why he was sacked.

 

I know many here like and admire TH. I can't share the sentiment.

Here's a sentiment many here share about you. Go fuck yourself.

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TH certainly has a different view on things. Right from the start, he seems to have an interesting take on things. I love the way he says that Gary Jobson won AC 1977 for Ted Turner. As I remember it, when Turner bought Courageous it was already a super fast boat and Turner helmed the boat at all times. I am not saying that Jobson wasn't a significant part of the team, but to say that he was the one responsible for winning the Cup is a real stretch.

 

I also love the way he says that during his youth, the AC was bigger than the Olympics for sailing. I would disagree with that statement. DC did the Olympics because he knew it was a big deal. Later, PC did the Olympics because it was a big deal. When you look at the best sailors of that generation, such as Cam Lewis and Steve Benjamin, they knew the olympics was a big thing. Maybe it would be better to say that in the world that TH inhabited, the AC was bigger.

 

Then there is the matter of how and why he left Artemis. One thing I am not really clear about, probably because TH wants to blur the story, is whether he only felt that Big Red was dangerous, all AC72's were dangerous or maybe all AC72's were dangerous and Big Red was the most dangerous of the lot. He clearly still has a problem with foiling big cats, because he says that the AC62's are dangerous. The bottom line is that from the start, TH was scared of the boat and not because of any potential structural problems. He had absolutely no feel for sailing high performance cats and while he won the ACWS match racing, whenever there was breeze he was a liability on the helm. Not only were his capsizes close to beginner errors, but on the speed runs, he never lit the boat up. And while I have no idea exactly why he was sacked, I believe that it had far more to do with his inability to adapt to the boat than because of what he said. Only weeks before he was sacked, a rather indiscreet PC was telling people that TH wasn't adapting to the boat and time was running out for them. You only had to look at how the boat was sailed once NO and LP got their hands on it to see the difference.

 

TH is a great sailor in large monohulls, but as for anything else...............

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IMHO the entire interview was a self serving piece of crap from yet another sailing merc.

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I had a massive falling out with the owner of the team and the CEO about the safety of our yacht so they decided to terminate me.

 

If that's true, he should have said so publicly after he was sacked.

 

To have said nothing at the time but make the claim a year later is pretty repulsive.

 

For many of us, watching the footage, hearing the hyperventilation, it seemed clear he was out of his depth sailing these boats and that, presumably, was why he was sacked.

 

I know many here like and admire TH. I can't share the sentiment.

Here's a sentiment many here share about you. Go fuck yourself.

 

Agreed.

 

Some pretty ignorant comments from a self-proclaimed expert on many topics - obviously not this one.

 

Whether due to professionalism or an NDA, which is very likely, he either was unable to speak out or decided not to in respect for the team and the event, in stark contrast to at least one other challenger who shot his mouth off at every opportunity.

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Here's a sentiment many here share about you. Go fuck yourself.

Normally I don't reply to comments like that but in this case I'm going to ask you a question.

 

How do you describe a whistle-blower who pipes up a year too late and cries crocodile tears over the death of a family man when he kept his mouth shut when he might have actually made a difference?

 

I call it repulsive. What do you call it?

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TH certainly has a different view on things. Right from the start, he seems to have an interesting take on things. I love the way he says that Gary Jobson won AC 1977 for Ted Turner. As I remember it, when Turner bought Courageous it was already a super fast boat and Turner helmed the boat at all times. I am not saying that Jobson wasn't a significant part of the team, but to say that he was the one responsible for winning the Cup is a real stretch.

 

I also love the way he says that during his youth, the AC was bigger than the Olympics for sailing. I would disagree with that statement. DC did the Olympics because he knew it was a big deal. Later, PC did the Olympics because it was a big deal. When you look at the best sailors of that generation, such as Cam Lewis and Steve Benjamin, they knew the olympics was a big thing. Maybe it would be better to say that in the world that TH inhabited, the AC was bigger.

 

Then there is the matter of how and why he left Artemis. One thing I am not really clear about, probably because TH wants to blur the story, is whether he only felt that Big Red was dangerous, all AC72's were dangerous or maybe all AC72's were dangerous and Big Red was the most dangerous of the lot. He clearly still has a problem with foiling big cats, because he says that the AC62's are dangerous. The bottom line is that from the start, TH was scared of the boat and not because of any potential structural problems. He had absolutely no feel for sailing high performance cats and while he won the ACWS match racing, whenever there was breeze he was a liability on the helm. Not only were his capsizes close to beginner errors, but on the speed runs, he never lit the boat up. And while I have no idea exactly why he was sacked, I believe that it had far more to do with his inability to adapt to the boat than because of what he said. Only weeks before he was sacked, a rather indiscreet PC was telling people that TH wasn't adapting to the boat and time was running out for them. You only had to look at how the boat was sailed once NO and LP got their hands on it to see the difference.

 

TH is a great sailor in large monohulls, but as for anything else...............

DC did the Olympics in a really weak class especially in the US. He didn't have the money for an AC boat against turner in '77. Cayard did the Olympics because Ellison paid him to go away.

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TH certainly has a different view on things. Right from the start, he seems to have an interesting take on things. I love the way he says that Gary Jobson won AC 1977 for Ted Turner. As I remember it, when Turner bought Courageous it was already a super fast boat and Turner helmed the boat at all times. I am not saying that Jobson wasn't a significant part of the team, but to say that he was the one responsible for winning the Cup is a real stretch.

 

I also love the way he says that during his youth, the AC was bigger than the Olympics for sailing. I would disagree with that statement. DC did the Olympics because he knew it was a big deal. Later, PC did the Olympics because it was a big deal. When you look at the best sailors of that generation, such as Cam Lewis and Steve Benjamin, they knew the olympics was a big thing. Maybe it would be better to say that in the world that TH inhabited, the AC was bigger.

 

Then there is the matter of how and why he left Artemis. One thing I am not really clear about, probably because TH wants to blur the story, is whether he only felt that Big Red was dangerous, all AC72's were dangerous or maybe all AC72's were dangerous and Big Red was the most dangerous of the lot. He clearly still has a problem with foiling big cats, because he says that the AC62's are dangerous. The bottom line is that from the start, TH was scared of the boat and not because of any potential structural problems. He had absolutely no feel for sailing high performance cats and while he won the ACWS match racing, whenever there was breeze he was a liability on the helm. Not only were his capsizes close to beginner errors, but on the speed runs, he never lit the boat up. And while I have no idea exactly why he was sacked, I believe that it had far more to do with his inability to adapt to the boat than because of what he said. Only weeks before he was sacked, a rather indiscreet PC was telling people that TH wasn't adapting to the boat and time was running out for them. You only had to look at how the boat was sailed once NO and LP got their hands on it to see the difference.

 

TH is a great sailor in large monohulls, but as for anything else...............

 

This post is so typical for you.

 

He states things as a matter of his opinion, not from the worldly view that only you and a few very select others see. I guess in your opinion he's not entitled to his opinion, especially if it differs from yours and he didn't state it just right - got it. Comes across as pretty arrogant on your part, but certainly not the first time for you. Maybe he views the Olympics as a vehicle to the AC, with the AC being the ultimate goal at that time. I guess this isn't possible with your 40 year 20/20 hindsight.

 

You question why he left ?? Seriously ?? Exactly how much more clear can you be without you putting on your tin foil hat and running around like TC ?

 

Do you think in your wildest imagination it may have had anything whatsoever to do with the issue observed on the initial tow test and subsequent repair of a criifcal structural part of of big red ? Couldn't possibly be now could it ?

 

Scared of the boat ? What team or team member weren't at any point ? Was he less willing to take risk relative to others ? Possibly, but given the issues with big red maybe he had good cause, but don't let that cloud your crystal clear judgment sitting 5000 miles away.

 

Maybe, just maybe he didn't adapt to the boat because he thought his fate might end up as Bart's did, but sure as hell don't give him any credit for that. It would be too big of you.

 

And don't hand me the "but he made mistakes with the AC45" BS. Who didn't at some stage in the ACWS ? Didn't Deano dump one late in the series on the East Coast ? Yes, the place with light air.

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DC did the Olympics in a really weak class especially in the US. He didn't have the money for an AC boat against turner in '77. Cayard did the Olympics because Ellison paid him to go away.

Really? Ellison paid for Cayard's Star campaign in 1984? Or doesn't that count because he was only reserve? And does it matter whether the class was strong or weak in the US? The class might have been weak in the USA but it was still a very strong class and there were no easy medals DC entered to win and to sail against some of the greats of sailing. You only have to look at who got silver to know that.

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Here's a sentiment many here share about you. Go fuck yourself.

Normally I don't reply to comments like that but in this case I'm going to ask you a question.

 

How do you describe a whistle-blower who pipes up a year too late and cries crocodile tears over the death of a family man when he kept his mouth shut when he might have actually made a difference?

 

I call it repulsive. What do you call it?

+100, not a very classy move by TH.

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How many people have claimed in the last 10-15 years that they would turn the America's Cup into the next F1? It will never happen. There is nothing wrong with that, it's simply the reality...

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More abuse and BS from somebody who consistently shows he knows very little about what goes on outside of his own little world.

 

TH certainly has a different view on things. Right from the start, he seems to have an interesting take on things. I love the way he says that Gary Jobson won AC 1977 for Ted Turner. As I remember it, when Turner bought Courageous it was already a super fast boat and Turner helmed the boat at all times. I am not saying that Jobson wasn't a significant part of the team, but to say that he was the one responsible for winning the Cup is a real stretch.

 

I also love the way he says that during his youth, the AC was bigger than the Olympics for sailing. I would disagree with that statement. DC did the Olympics because he knew it was a big deal. Later, PC did the Olympics because it was a big deal. When you look at the best sailors of that generation, such as Cam Lewis and Steve Benjamin, they knew the olympics was a big thing. Maybe it would be better to say that in the world that TH inhabited, the AC was bigger.

 

Then there is the matter of how and why he left Artemis. One thing I am not really clear about, probably because TH wants to blur the story, is whether he only felt that Big Red was dangerous, all AC72's were dangerous or maybe all AC72's were dangerous and Big Red was the most dangerous of the lot. He clearly still has a problem with foiling big cats, because he says that the AC62's are dangerous. The bottom line is that from the start, TH was scared of the boat and not because of any potential structural problems. He had absolutely no feel for sailing high performance cats and while he won the ACWS match racing, whenever there was breeze he was a liability on the helm. Not only were his capsizes close to beginner errors, but on the speed runs, he never lit the boat up. And while I have no idea exactly why he was sacked, I believe that it had far more to do with his inability to adapt to the boat than because of what he said. Only weeks before he was sacked, a rather indiscreet PC was telling people that TH wasn't adapting to the boat and time was running out for them. You only had to look at how the boat was sailed once NO and LP got their hands on it to see the difference.

 

TH is a great sailor in large monohulls, but as for anything else...............

 

This post is so typical for you.

 

He states things as a matter of his opinion, not from the worldly view that only you and a few very select others see. I guess in your opinion he's not entitled to his opinion, especially if it differs from yours and he didn't state it just right - got it. Comes across as pretty arrogant on your part, but certainly not the first time for you. Maybe he views the Olympics as a vehicle to the AC, with the AC being the ultimate goal at that time. I guess this isn't possible with your 40 year 20/20 hindsight. It doesn't take hindsight to know that every other great sailor of his generation in the USA went Olympic class sailing. It is really disrespectful to the US sailors who did undertake Olympic campaigns. Just look at the US medal winners from 1984 - John Bertrand, Steve Benjamin, Johnathan McKee, Randy Smyth, William Buchan, Robbie Haines and that is just the helms. Or look at 1988, when the likes of john Kostecki and Mark Reynolds were winning medals. In fact, it is a glaring hole in TH's CV that he didn't even try to get to the Olympics.

 

 

You question why he left ?? Seriously ?? Exactly how much more clear can you be without you putting on your tin foil hat and running around like TC ? I don't question why he left. He left after Ian Percy took over sailing operations and put NO and LP at the back of the boat while telling TH that there wasn't a role for him any more. He was taken off the helm because he wasn't good enough and kept shying away from pushing the boat. Or are you saying it is purely a coincidence that the timing of his leaving was

 

Do you think in your wildest imagination it may have had anything whatsoever to do with the issue observed on the initial tow test and subsequent repair of a criifcal structural part of of big red ? Couldn't possibly be now could it ? No, because if that really was the issue why the hell did he continue sailing the boat until the day before he was kicked out?

 

Scared of the boat ? What team or team member weren't at any point ? Was he less willing to take risk relative to others ? Possibly, but given the issues with big red maybe he had good cause, but don't let that cloud your crystal clear judgment sitting 5000 miles away.

 

Maybe, just maybe he didn't adapt to the boat because he thought his fate might end up as Bart's did, but sure as hell don't give him any credit for that. It would be too big of you.

 

And don't hand me the "but he made mistakes with the AC45" BS. Who didn't at some stage in the ACWS ? Didn't Deano dump one late in the series on the East Coast ? Yes, the place with light air. ​He consistently made mistakes and it was discussed at length at the time. Anybody with any experience of either cat or skiff sailing could spot it a mile off and if you went anywhere near good cat sailors or skiff sailors at the time, it was all the talk. And that's not post-rationalisation, because it was posted about on these very forums at length.

If what you say about his concerns about Big Red are right, why did he sail the boat so much. Why did he sail it in bigger conditions that those that led to the accident? His actions then and his words today aren't consistent.

 

And if, as you try to suggest, there was a NDA, why can he suddenly talk now? That doesn't add up either.

 

But for me, the biggest pointer to his state of mind is the way he is now branding the AC62's as dangerous as well, before any have been built or sailed. That, combined with his comments about the 72's says all we need to know.

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"Think about a car when you’re driving down the road at 60 mph and you stick your hand out the window, in essence, that will slow the car down. If you have a smaller car that’s capable of the same type of speed, but doesn’t have the arm sticking out the window, that car is inherently going to go faster. The boats will go faster, and they’ll be more dangerous and on-edge."

 

WTF is he talking about? He certainly comes across as completely clueless about design.

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"Think about a car when you’re driving down the road at 60 mph and you stick your hand out the window, in essence, that will slow the car down. If you have a smaller car that’s capable of the same type of speed, but doesn’t have the arm sticking out the window, that car is inherently going to go faster. The boats will go faster, and they’ll be more dangerous and on-edge."

 

WTF is he talking about? He certainly comes across as completely clueless about design.

 

Well actually either YOU are clueless about design or you didn't read what he said. Bigger is not always faster, same usable power for less drag means higher speeds.

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I never saw the full Accident report of the Juan K boat i am so waiting to understand and hear from J as he was always boasting he could even optimize a laser dinghy.(this wasn't his best boat...)

As of TH i think catamarans/trimarans are not his forte. that said some racing sailboats are a handful for mortal drivers. hard to keep in the grove and while planing downwind are sometimes just on the edge of control.

Racing is high octane,is the america's cup perfect? doesn't matter they currently at least are the cutting edge(c-Class catamarans.....)

i still want to see the report of the red cat...

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Here's a sentiment many here share about you. Go fuck yourself.

Normally I don't reply to comments like that but in this case I'm going to ask you a question.

 

How do you describe a whistle-blower who pipes up a year too late and cries crocodile tears over the death of a family man when he kept his mouth shut when he might have actually made a difference?

 

I call it repulsive. What do you call it?

 

It could well be called tact, discretion, and conscience. Blowing the whistle when the tragedy was still so raw could have been much worse for the family; getting information and qualified opinion now could bring closure.

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If F1 doesn't accept fatalities, why should the AC?

Who is saying they should ?

 

Why don't you ask why teams should be allowed to argue against proposed safety regulations by the regatta director ?

 

Risks are inherent in the sport, and sailing fatalities occur all to frequently, very few in the AC.

Go back a bit and you'll see quite a few posters who seemed to accept tragedy quite philosophically.

 

Some level of risk is inherent, but why not follow F1's lead and go to great lengths to minimise that risk? But the fact that one wants risks to be reduced doesn't mean that one has to agree with the way some decisions were made last time (although if you actually checked the facts you'd see that I defended Murray's integrity at the time).

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The TH interview is great, and interesting in its point of publication; the hard hitting news magazine known for fair and in depth treatment of complicated and nuanced subjects, Maxim. Why Maxim? A question I will leave alone for a moment.

 

Th AC 72's are undoubtably and inherently more dangerous than sailing a monohull, or really, almost any other multi-hull around an inshore or short off-shore race course. They are ridiculously fast and awesome boats with breath taking presence and astonishing performance. They have changed most of the sailing world's understanding and expectation of what in-shore sailboats are capable of. Some of you already knew, but you were in the minority. The AC 72's require highly skilled, ridiculously fit, and trained crew with nerves of steel and an addiction for adrenalin. Now that I've state the blazingly obvious... What I think TH is saying is that there was not enough done to ensure the safety of the sailors and that that there is nothing that can be done for this class of boat to make them safe enough to justify their use in the AC.

 

Now think of all the insanely dangerous sporting events and near sporting events that now exist. F1 and some other Motorsport racing (rally comes to mind)- dangerous as all hell. Safer now, but still crazy dangerous requiring exceptional athletes with faster reflexes than 99.9% of the population. A good number of the X game type "sports" are stupid dangerous and require a certain lack of the instinct of self-preservation. Jumping and doing flips on a snow-mobile? Crazy nuts. Impressive that a human can make that happen? Yes. Want to try it myself? Definitely not.

 

In one fell swoop, the AC went from a sport that require physical prowess, and excellent minds, to one that required athletes of a different type with the same intellectual capacity. The difference between calling the shots or driving a TP52 vs. driving an AC 72 is huge and there is no reason to expect the same sailors to excel in both. TH is arguably one of the best sailors of his generation. He values his life and the lives of his crew and deems the AC72 too dangerous for his risk/reward calculations and therefore cannot endorse or participate in the AC game. Just as my risk/reward calculations on jumping and doing flips on snow snow-mobiles come up in the do-not-fly zone, so do his on the AC72.

 

Now, in both cases there are those who feel differently. Jimmy Spithill being a prime example. He seems to thrive in that environment and accept the risks. I can only assume the other sailors who keep sailing feel the same. They are well paid professional athletes who know much better than outsiders what the risks are and what they are getting out of it. Life is not guaranteed to be safe. As long as the risks are understood and not hidden from the participants, then are free to make their own choices. Some chose to race AC72s. Some race rally cars. Some jump and flip snow-mobiles.

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More abuse and BS from somebody who consistently shows he knows very little about what goes on outside of his own little world.

 

TH certainly has a different view on things. Right from the start, he seems to have an interesting take on things. I love the way he says that Gary Jobson won AC 1977 for Ted Turner. As I remember it, when Turner bought Courageous it was already a super fast boat and Turner helmed the boat at all times. I am not saying that Jobson wasn't a significant part of the team, but to say that he was the one responsible for winning the Cup is a real stretch.

 

I also love the way he says that during his youth, the AC was bigger than the Olympics for sailing. I would disagree with that statement. DC did the Olympics because he knew it was a big deal. Later, PC did the Olympics because it was a big deal. When you look at the best sailors of that generation, such as Cam Lewis and Steve Benjamin, they knew the olympics was a big thing. Maybe it would be better to say that in the world that TH inhabited, the AC was bigger.

 

Then there is the matter of how and why he left Artemis. One thing I am not really clear about, probably because TH wants to blur the story, is whether he only felt that Big Red was dangerous, all AC72's were dangerous or maybe all AC72's were dangerous and Big Red was the most dangerous of the lot. He clearly still has a problem with foiling big cats, because he says that the AC62's are dangerous. The bottom line is that from the start, TH was scared of the boat and not because of any potential structural problems. He had absolutely no feel for sailing high performance cats and while he won the ACWS match racing, whenever there was breeze he was a liability on the helm. Not only were his capsizes close to beginner errors, but on the speed runs, he never lit the boat up. And while I have no idea exactly why he was sacked, I believe that it had far more to do with his inability to adapt to the boat than because of what he said. Only weeks before he was sacked, a rather indiscreet PC was telling people that TH wasn't adapting to the boat and time was running out for them. You only had to look at how the boat was sailed once NO and LP got their hands on it to see the difference.

 

TH is a great sailor in large monohulls, but as for anything else...............

 

This post is so typical for you.

 

He states things as a matter of his opinion, not from the worldly view that only you and a few very select others see. I guess in your opinion he's not entitled to his opinion, especially if it differs from yours and he didn't state it just right - got it. Comes across as pretty arrogant on your part, but certainly not the first time for you. Maybe he views the Olympics as a vehicle to the AC, with the AC being the ultimate goal at that time. I guess this isn't possible with your 40 year 20/20 hindsight. It doesn't take hindsight to know that every other great sailor of his generation in the USA went Olympic class sailing. It is really disrespectful to the US sailors who did undertake Olympic campaigns. Just look at the US medal winners from 1984 - John Bertrand, Steve Benjamin, Johnathan McKee, Randy Smyth, William Buchan, Robbie Haines and that is just the helms. Or look at 1988, when the likes of john Kostecki and Mark Reynolds were winning medals. In fact, it is a glaring hole in TH's CV that he didn't even try to get to the Olympics.

 

 

You question why he left ?? Seriously ?? Exactly how much more clear can you be without you putting on your tin foil hat and running around like TC ? I don't question why he left. He left after Ian Percy took over sailing operations and put NO and LP at the back of the boat while telling TH that there wasn't a role for him any more. He was taken off the helm because he wasn't good enough and kept shying away from pushing the boat. Or are you saying it is purely a coincidence that the timing of his leaving was

 

Do you think in your wildest imagination it may have had anything whatsoever to do with the issue observed on the initial tow test and subsequent repair of a criifcal structural part of of big red ? Couldn't possibly be now could it ? No, because if that really was the issue why the hell did he continue sailing the boat until the day before he was kicked out?

 

Scared of the boat ? What team or team member weren't at any point ? Was he less willing to take risk relative to others ? Possibly, but given the issues with big red maybe he had good cause, but don't let that cloud your crystal clear judgment sitting 5000 miles away.

 

Maybe, just maybe he didn't adapt to the boat because he thought his fate might end up as Bart's did, but sure as hell don't give him any credit for that. It would be too big of you.

 

And don't hand me the "but he made mistakes with the AC45" BS. Who didn't at some stage in the ACWS ? Didn't Deano dump one late in the series on the East Coast ? Yes, the place with light air. ​He consistently made mistakes and it was discussed at length at the time. Anybody with any experience of either cat or skiff sailing could spot it a mile off and if you went anywhere near good cat sailors or skiff sailors at the time, it was all the talk. And that's not post-rationalisation, because it was posted about on these very forums at length.

If what you say about his concerns about Big Red are right, why did he sail the boat so much. Why did he sail it in bigger conditions that those that led to the accident? His actions then and his words today aren't consistent.

 

And if, as you try to suggest, there was a NDA, why can he suddenly talk now? That doesn't add up either.

 

But for me, the biggest pointer to his state of mind is the way he is now branding the AC62's as dangerous as well, before any have been built or sailed. That, combined with his comments about the 72's says all we need to know.

 

Could it be that things were happening from the tow test, through the number of days sailing the boat, that TH finally reached a point that he said 'no mas'?

 

Do you, or any of us, know what breaks and repairs that were possibly being made on a daily basis that added to his decision? A situation like this that lead to his departure would take time to develop, from a point of excitement of the design and success on the AC45, winning the match racing, to the initial troubles and continuing problems, to the point of losing confidence in the boat and the decisions being made, to being edged-out of the process.

 

He knows more than we do.

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"Think about a car when you’re driving down the road at 60 mph and you stick your hand out the window, in essence, that will slow the car down. If you have a smaller car that’s capable of the same type of speed, but doesn’t have the arm sticking out the window, that car is inherently going to go faster. The boats will go faster, and they’ll be more dangerous and on-edge."

 

WTF is he talking about? He certainly comes across as completely clueless about design.

 

Well actually either YOU are clueless about design or you didn't read what he said. Bigger is not always faster, same usable power for less drag means higher speeds.

 

The AC62 is smaller, has a lot less less righting moment and less sail area. Why do you think it is going to have the same useable power?

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"Think about a car when you’re driving down the road at 60 mph and you stick your hand out the window, in essence, that will slow the car down. If you have a smaller car that’s capable of the same type of speed, but doesn’t have the arm sticking out the window, that car is inherently going to go faster. The boats will go faster, and they’ll be more dangerous and on-edge."

 

WTF is he talking about? He certainly comes across as completely clueless about design.

 

Well actually either YOU are clueless about design or you didn't read what he said. Bigger is not always faster, same usable power for less drag means higher speeds.

 

The AC62 is smaller, has a lot less less righting moment and less sail area. Why do you think it is going to have the same useable power?

 

Because all the teams stated that they were having to depower their AC72 wings even in mild conditions. In other words, they could have used smaller wings for the same useable power and less drag. The AC62 will be used much closer to its max potential.

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More abuse and BS from somebody who consistently shows he knows very little about what goes on outside of his own little world.

 

TH certainly has a different view on things. Right from the start, he seems to have an interesting take on things. I love the way he says that Gary Jobson won AC 1977 for Ted Turner. As I remember it, when Turner bought Courageous it was already a super fast boat and Turner helmed the boat at all times. I am not saying that Jobson wasn't a significant part of the team, but to say that he was the one responsible for winning the Cup is a real stretch.

 

I also love the way he says that during his youth, the AC was bigger than the Olympics for sailing. I would disagree with that statement. DC did the Olympics because he knew it was a big deal. Later, PC did the Olympics because it was a big deal. When you look at the best sailors of that generation, such as Cam Lewis and Steve Benjamin, they knew the olympics was a big thing. Maybe it would be better to say that in the world that TH inhabited, the AC was bigger.

 

Then there is the matter of how and why he left Artemis. One thing I am not really clear about, probably because TH wants to blur the story, is whether he only felt that Big Red was dangerous, all AC72's were dangerous or maybe all AC72's were dangerous and Big Red was the most dangerous of the lot. He clearly still has a problem with foiling big cats, because he says that the AC62's are dangerous. The bottom line is that from the start, TH was scared of the boat and not because of any potential structural problems. He had absolutely no feel for sailing high performance cats and while he won the ACWS match racing, whenever there was breeze he was a liability on the helm. Not only were his capsizes close to beginner errors, but on the speed runs, he never lit the boat up. And while I have no idea exactly why he was sacked, I believe that it had far more to do with his inability to adapt to the boat than because of what he said. Only weeks before he was sacked, a rather indiscreet PC was telling people that TH wasn't adapting to the boat and time was running out for them. You only had to look at how the boat was sailed once NO and LP got their hands on it to see the difference.

 

TH is a great sailor in large monohulls, but as for anything else...............

 

This post is so typical for you.

 

He states things as a matter of his opinion, not from the worldly view that only you and a few very select others see. I guess in your opinion he's not entitled to his opinion, especially if it differs from yours and he didn't state it just right - got it. Comes across as pretty arrogant on your part, but certainly not the first time for you. Maybe he views the Olympics as a vehicle to the AC, with the AC being the ultimate goal at that time. I guess this isn't possible with your 40 year 20/20 hindsight. It doesn't take hindsight to know that every other great sailor of his generation in the USA went Olympic class sailing. It is really disrespectful to the US sailors who did undertake Olympic campaigns. Just look at the US medal winners from 1984 - John Bertrand, Steve Benjamin, Johnathan McKee, Randy Smyth, William Buchan, Robbie Haines and that is just the helms. Or look at 1988, when the likes of john Kostecki and Mark Reynolds were winning medals. In fact, it is a glaring hole in TH's CV that he didn't even try to get to the Olympics.

 

 

You question why he left ?? Seriously ?? Exactly how much more clear can you be without you putting on your tin foil hat and running around like TC ? I don't question why he left. He left after Ian Percy took over sailing operations and put NO and LP at the back of the boat while telling TH that there wasn't a role for him any more. He was taken off the helm because he wasn't good enough and kept shying away from pushing the boat. Or are you saying it is purely a coincidence that the timing of his leaving was

 

Do you think in your wildest imagination it may have had anything whatsoever to do with the issue observed on the initial tow test and subsequent repair of a criifcal structural part of of big red ? Couldn't possibly be now could it ? No, because if that really was the issue why the hell did he continue sailing the boat until the day before he was kicked out?

 

Scared of the boat ? What team or team member weren't at any point ? Was he less willing to take risk relative to others ? Possibly, but given the issues with big red maybe he had good cause, but don't let that cloud your crystal clear judgment sitting 5000 miles away.

 

Maybe, just maybe he didn't adapt to the boat because he thought his fate might end up as Bart's did, but sure as hell don't give him any credit for that. It would be too big of you.

 

And don't hand me the "but he made mistakes with the AC45" BS. Who didn't at some stage in the ACWS ? Didn't Deano dump one late in the series on the East Coast ? Yes, the place with light air. ​He consistently made mistakes and it was discussed at length at the time. Anybody with any experience of either cat or skiff sailing could spot it a mile off and if you went anywhere near good cat sailors or skiff sailors at the time, it was all the talk. And that's not post-rationalisation, because it was posted about on these very forums at length.

If what you say about his concerns about Big Red are right, why did he sail the boat so much. Why did he sail it in bigger conditions that those that led to the accident? His actions then and his words today aren't consistent.

 

And if, as you try to suggest, there was a NDA, why can he suddenly talk now? That doesn't add up either.

 

But for me, the biggest pointer to his state of mind is the way he is now branding the AC62's as dangerous as well, before any have been built or sailed. That, combined with his comments about the 72's says all we need to know.

 

Could it be that things were happening from the tow test, through the number of days sailing the boat, that TH finally reached a point that he said 'no mas'?

 

Do you, or any of us, know what breaks and repairs that were possibly being made on a daily basis that added to his decision? A situation like this that lead to his departure would take time to develop, from a point of excitement of the design and success on the AC45, winning the match racing, to the initial troubles and continuing problems, to the point of losing confidence in the boat and the decisions being made, to being edged-out of the process.

 

He knows more than we do.

 

The suggestion that their were a progression of events that lead him to his decision is a very likely scenario. The more exposure he had the more apparent the risks became. First the wing on the surrogate boat suddenly broke apart, then the tow test and subsequent repair, which no one here has any details of, along with any of the other repairs that took place along with the discussions behind them.

 

Anyone considered that it could have been an increasing lack of confidence in the designer, the one ultimately responsible for the structural integrity of both designs, that lead him to his decision ? Any chance that it could well have been a series of events that lead him to his decision ?

 

The best supporting example of this scenario that has been totally overlooked yet is completely relevant is the structural rebuilding of big blue and the testing done to make it a safer boat. Anyone here know how many hundreds of pounds of carbon fiber was used in that process ? Clue - it was not a small amount, especially relative to the overall weight of the design. The confidence of some key people on the shore team was rattled when that process was completed.

 

And the most blinding obvious fact of all, he was right, at least in the case of Artemis. Not sure how that can be so easily ignored.

 

I guess it's easier to just call him a liar and say he was kicked off the team rather than take him for his word that the decision was mutual.

 

According to Simon this can't possibly be the case.

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DC did the Olympics in a really weak class especially in the US. He didn't have the money for an AC boat against turner in '77. Cayard did the Olympics because Ellison paid him to go away.

Really? Ellison paid for Cayard's Star campaign in 1984? Or doesn't that count because he was only reserve? And does it matter whether the class was strong or weak in the US? The class might have been weak in the USA but it was still a very strong class and there were no easy medals DC entered to win and to sail against some of the greats of sailing. You only have to look at who got silver to know that.

I was referring to 2004 not 1984. Cayard was 5th in 2004. You seemed to forget about that. http://www.cayardsailing.com/cs_PaulCayard.cfm

 

the tempest class was much weaker internationally than the star it replaced. DC was great for sure but the tempest class never came close to the depth of the star.

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^^ Also many of the guys around him were in their 20's, TH in his 40's. He had been around the block a few more times than them and maybe had a sense of impending danger that young go-getters do not have. He had seen and been around some IACC boats that broke and could have caused serious injury, at a much lower speed than an AC45 or 72.

 

As for Jobbo...........keeping-up up with Turner merits quite a bit of respect. Even DC would tell you that. As great a sailor as Turner is, he was quite a handful to deal with. Just watch any of the videos from Mariner or Courageous. He is an entertaining live wire at the helm, even having to keep his foul weather pants up!

 

I do not see TH as someone who speaks irrationally.

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I'm sure TH is being honest about his safety concerns at the time. Surely, everyone had some.

 

But I tend to agree with SimonN on this point as being another big reason for TH leaving, and you obviously wouldn't expect him to say it even if it's likely true: "He left after Ian Percy took over sailing operations and put NO and LP at the back of the boat while telling TH that there wasn't a role for him any more."

 

Between TH and Nathan O, TH was the odd man out. The decision that many were expecting had been made.

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TH certainly has a different view on things. Right from the start, he seems to have an interesting take on things. I love the way he says that Gary Jobson won AC 1977 for Ted Turner. As I remember it, when Turner bought Courageous it was already a super fast boat and Turner helmed the boat at all times. I am not saying that Jobson wasn't a significant part of the team, but to say that he was the one responsible for winning the Cup is a real stretch.

 

I also love the way he says that during his youth, the AC was bigger than the Olympics for sailing. I would disagree with that statement. DC did the Olympics because he knew it was a big deal. Later, PC did the Olympics because it was a big deal. When you look at the best sailors of that generation, such as Cam Lewis and Steve Benjamin, they knew the olympics was a big thing. Maybe it would be better to say that in the world that TH inhabited, the AC was bigger.

 

Then there is the matter of how and why he left Artemis. One thing I am not really clear about, probably because TH wants to blur the story, is whether he only felt that Big Red was dangerous, all AC72's were dangerous or maybe all AC72's were dangerous and Big Red was the most dangerous of the lot. He clearly still has a problem with foiling big cats, because he says that the AC62's are dangerous. The bottom line is that from the start, TH was scared of the boat and not because of any potential structural problems. He had absolutely no feel for sailing high performance cats and while he won the ACWS match racing, whenever there was breeze he was a liability on the helm. Not only were his capsizes close to beginner errors, but on the speed runs, he never lit the boat up. And while I have no idea exactly why he was sacked, I believe that it had far more to do with his inability to adapt to the boat than because of what he said. Only weeks before he was sacked, a rather indiscreet PC was telling people that TH wasn't adapting to the boat and time was running out for them. You only had to look at how the boat was sailed once NO and LP got their hands on it to see the difference.

 

TH is a great sailor in large monohulls, but as for anything else...............

DC did the Olympics in a really weak class especially in the US. He didn't have the money for an AC boat against turner in '77. Cayard did the Olympics because Ellison paid him to go away.

 

I think DC did the Olympics cause he wanted a medal and he was not going to get his own AC program for '77. After the Mariner deal, and being a west coaster, he knew the opportunity was not forthcoming. Enterprise (Lowell's boat) called him when it was getting late in the game and he did not feel he could help them, or drop his Star campaign at that point.

 

Enterprise was pretty equal to Courageous, but Lowell's way of sailing the match races and some of the (experimental) sail choices held her back. DC may have made a difference but history proves it was Turner's year. After Mariner I think he was owed one.

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I'm sure TH is being honest about his safety concerns at the time. Surely, everyone had some.

 

But I tend to agree with SimonN on this point as being another big reason for TH leaving, and you obviously wouldn't expect him to say it even if it's likely true: "He left after Ian Percy took over sailing operations and put NO and LP at the back of the boat while telling TH that there wasn't a role for him any more."

 

Between TH and Nathan O, TH was the odd man out. The decision that many were expecting had been made.

 

Possibly, but this doesn't make the decision any less mutual or his concerns any less valid, proven by the accident that took place. Kind of hard to discount that fact, along with the structural issues seen with both boats.

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True. But it's also hard to discount the fact that NO won the Moth Worlds two weeks ago, he is and was the better choice for the helm at Artemis.

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TH is no slouch, NO is a younger generation coming into his own,

 

TH spent a lot of time in multi's working to be ready when the AC45's came along and then for the 72. For a guy who had never sailed multi's AFAIK he made a pretty big jump in a short amount of time. DB did the same thing, along with JS and others, beating world class multi-hull sailors aong the way. Not getting to see much of NO with the limited time the blue boat sailed we do not know how good they are in an AC match format.

 

To say dumping TH was the right move is not really something that we know is right. If we had seen TH and NO race against each other in the way JS and BA did, then maybe something could be said.

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Nothing against TH, obviously a wild class sailor too but:

 

Nathan is a 49er Olympics Gold Medalist and a two-time Moth World Champion! That's very serious talent.

 

Name one apparent-wind boat class that TH has excelled in. Yes ACWS MR title was impressive, but what else? Was TH ever going to beat the likes of helms like JS, DB, BA, CD, or NO in big wing-sailed foiling cats?

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^

Okay: JS and BA - who did better there?

 

Obviously JS kicked some serious ass when the chips were down. But BA was there too.

 

AC45s?

 

BA apparently drove B1 like a man processed.

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Nothing against TH, obviously a wild class sailor too but:

 

Nathan is a 49er Olympics Gold Medalist and a two-time Moth World Champion.

 

Name one apparent-wind boat class that TH has excelled in. Yes ACWS MR title was impressive, but what else? Was TH ever going to beat the likes of helms like JS, DB, BA, CD, or NO in big wing-sailed foiling cats?

TH won the Heisman.

 

At least - that's what he said. ;)

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True. But it's also hard to discount the fact that NO won the Moth Worlds two weeks ago, he is and was the better choice for the helm at Artemis.

It didn't matter who drove Artemis the boat sucked.

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^

Okay: JS and BA - who did better there?

 

Obviously JS kicked some serious ass when the chips were down. But BA was there too.

 

AC45s?

 

BA apparently drove B1 like a man processed.

 

They are all good, but without them lining-up we will not know, ever. Remember, EB was supposed to just slaughter JS in a multi-hull.

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It could well be called tact, discretion, and conscience. Blowing the whistle when the tragedy was still so raw

Not then, before. When he was sacked over safety issues, allegedly.

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It could well be called tact, discretion, and conscience. Blowing the whistle when the tragedy was still so raw

Not then, before. When he was sacked over safety issues, allegedly.

Everyone knew the boat was suspect and everyone knew Hutch told Cayard there was a problem. Don't go looking at Hutch this is all on Cayard.

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TH is no slouch, NO is a younger generation coming into his own,

 

TH spent a lot of time in multi's working to be ready when the AC45's came along and then for the 72. For a guy who had never sailed multi's AFAIK he made a pretty big jump in a short amount of time. DB did the same thing, along with JS and others, beating world class multi-hull sailors aong the way. Not getting to see much of NO with the limited time the blue boat sailed we do not know how good they are in an AC match format.

 

To say dumping TH was the right move is not really something that we know is right. If we had seen TH and NO race against each other in the way JS and BA did, then maybe something could be said.

 

Agreed - TH made a big jump and at the same time realized the platform beneath him was not safe.

 

Nothing against NO - clearly a very capable class act and maintained a very professional approach when ET was pounding the safety issues and trying to pull the elimination series into a schedule that was known Artemis couldn't meet. I spoke with NO at the time, and it was perfectly clear all they wanted to do was disregard the political bullshit from ET and go sail.

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It could well be called tact, discretion, and conscience. Blowing the whistle when the tragedy was still so raw

Not then, before. When he was sacked over safety issues, allegedly.

Everyone knew the boat was suspect and everyone knew Hutch told Cayard there was a problem. Don't go looking at Hutch this is all on Cayard.

 

Agreed - but the facts have never stopped the pitchforks and torches from coming out on SAAC and accusing the wrong person.

 

It only confirms the facts that idiots post here..

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I had a massive falling out with the owner of the team and the CEO about the safety of our yacht so they decided to terminate me.

 

If that's true, he should have said so publicly after he was sacked.

 

To have said nothing at the time but make the claim a year later is pretty repulsive.

 

He was not permitted to say anything

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. Remember, EB was supposed to just slaughter JS in a multi-hull.

That is most definitely the first time I've seen that said!

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I had a massive falling out with the owner of the team and the CEO about the safety of our yacht so they decided to terminate me.

 

If that's true, he should have said so publicly after he was sacked.

 

To have said nothing at the time but make the claim a year later is pretty repulsive.

 

He was not permitted to say anything

 

Try to name an AC team that doesn't require strict NDA's.

 

Maybe it's a new concept in the UK.

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I had a massive falling out with the owner of the team and the CEO about the safety of our yacht so they decided to terminate me.

 

If that's true, he should have said so publicly after he was sacked.

 

To have said nothing at the time but make the claim a year later is pretty repulsive.

 

He was not permitted to say anything

 

Try to name an AC team that doesn't require strict NDA's.

 

Maybe it's a new concept in the UK.

So are you now saying he is in breach of his NDA....Or did his NDA only have a short shelf life.

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. Remember, EB was supposed to just slaughter JS in a multi-hull.

That is most definitely the first time I've seen that said!

 

OK, maybe not those exact words but EB was supposed to be such a master and OR had no chance aginst his superior abilities and experience. It was claimed JS had nowhere near the experience necessary to out-duel EB.

 

We saw the truth in that within 30 seconds of the 5 min gun..............................

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. Remember, EB was supposed to just slaughter JS in a multi-hull.

That is most definitely the first time I've seen that said!

 

OK, maybe not those exact words but EB was supposed to be such a master and OR had no chance aginst his superior abilities and experience. It was claimed JS had nowhere near the experience necessary to out-duel EB.

 

We saw the truth in that within 30 seconds of the 5 min gun..............................

 

There was certainly a discussion on here about EB and his D35 experience leading up to AC33 once it was known EB would be on the wheel. And no one on here thought JS and OR would be whipping around the DoGy in the start box prior to the 1st race pre-start. If I remember correctly it was thought OR would avoid Alinghi in the box and power away from them, if they could. EB's multi bona fides played a role in that line of thinking.

 

Don't remember it viewed as EB slaughtering JS, but i do remember the general impression on here that Alinghi's overall multi experience would be a major factor. Anyone care to look back on here to know for sure? ;)

 

WetHog :ph34r:

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I had a massive falling out with the owner of the team and the CEO about the safety of our yacht so they decided to terminate me.

 

If that's true, he should have said so publicly after he was sacked.

 

To have said nothing at the time but make the claim a year later is pretty repulsive.

 

He was not permitted to say anything

 

Try to name an AC team that doesn't require strict NDA's.

 

Maybe it's a new concept in the UK.

So are you now saying he is in breach of his NDA....Or did his NDA only have a short shelf life.

 

Lame attempt to put words in my mouth. Neither, because he didn't share anything with me personally. You're free to draw your own conclusions.

 

You've already called him a liar, so feel free to add to your list of defamatory comments, the purpose of which is unclear.

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I had a massive falling out with the owner of the team and the CEO about the safety of our yacht so they decided to terminate me.

 

If that's true, he should have said so publicly after he was sacked.

 

To have said nothing at the time but make the claim a year later is pretty repulsive.

He was not permitted to say anything

 

 

Not permitted. And what would have happened if he just did? You think Artemis would sue a well-known ex-employee who publicly raised safety concerns that he clearly would have been well-qualified to raise? How do you think that would have played out, publicly and legally? Not many organisations are so asinine as to attempt that.

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Conner built a picket fence in the 1977 Star World Championship. He clearly was the one of the best sailors in the world at the time, whether he had to sail a tempest in the olympic regatta or not. Not really the subject of this thread, but the facts matter.

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Dennis was good, but now that that era is being celebrated, I feel the need to mention his amazing crew... who is a mentor of mine in both sailing and rowing: Conn Findlay. Conn was Dennis' crew in that tempest that got a Bronze medal, and he is one of very few olympians that have medaled in completely different disciplines. He also also won Gold and Bronze medals in the Pair with Coxwain as an oarsman. And he also sailed on Courageous with Ted Turner. An amazing and unassuming guy.

 

I'm pretty sure that Tempest was neither of their first choice, but welcome to the politics of the Olympic classes. That they were able to do so well when this wasn't their primary boat speaks in their favor.

 

As an aside, Olympic class politics really make clear how amazing a boat the Finn is having endured uninterrupted for so long.

 

To his discredit... Conn did sell off one of our beater Finns to make space in the lot one year. Kindof wish I had that boat now to knock around. But at the time I was relived to have it out of sight.

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OK, maybe not those exact words but EB was supposed to be such a master and OR had no chance aginst his superior abilities and experience. It was claimed JS had nowhere near the experience necessary to out-duel EB.

 

We saw the truth in that within 30 seconds of the 5 min gun..............................

 

I don't know HH; I think I probably read and wrote more on AC33 than anyone alive, and I never saw anyone predict that, or even come close. Ernesto was always a good club sailor, but never in the same zip code as a real pro and only the most clueless would propose that. Same with Ellison despite the hilarious portions of that Mechanic book where Larry somehow convinced himself he was better than the pro match racers.

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Not permitted. And what would have happened if he just did? You think Artemis would sue a well-known ex-employee who publicly raised safety concerns that he clearly would have been well-qualified to raise? How do you think that would have played out, publicly and legally? Not many organisations are so asinine as to attempt that.

 

You may want to look up liquidated damages clauses to see how they work. I wouldn't have spoken either if millions of dollars depended on it. I am quite surprised he said what he said to Maxim, frankly.

 

Believe me when I tell you that I really, really wish the whole story would get out, and that the right people are forced to admit their culpability. But I ain't optimistic.

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I had a massive falling out with the owner of the team and the CEO about the safety of our yacht so they decided to terminate me.

 

If that's true, he should have said so publicly after he was sacked.

 

To have said nothing at the time but make the claim a year later is pretty repulsive.

He was not permitted to say anything

 

Not permitted. And what would have happened if he just did? You think Artemis would sue a well-known ex-employee who publicly raised safety concerns that he clearly would have been well-qualified to raise? How do you think that would have played out, publicly and legally? Not many organisations are so asinine as to attempt that.

 

So you're saying that if you signed an NDA it would be fine to turn around and breech the agreement and the other party should take no action ?

 

Kind of defeats the purpose of an NDA to begin with.

 

And how do you know he is so well qualified to calculate or assess the structural calculations involved ? He only sailed the boat, he didn't design it.

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^ By calculation, assessment or intuition he got it right - argue all you want. He was probably not the only one on the team who could see the issues developing, there were plenty here even who said it was an accident waiting to happen as well - but it's pretty clear that their design team was not capable of of doing the calculations you speak of. It's either that, or that they failed to adequately control and supervise the build process.

 

Had AR or IM taken safety a bit more seriously at that point, by carrying out the load tests for example, which they eventually performed anyway - a tragedy would have been avoided.

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Not permitted. And what would have happened if he just did? You think Artemis would sue a well-known ex-employee who publicly raised safety concerns that he clearly would have been well-qualified to raise? How do you think that would have played out, publicly and legally? Not many organisations are so asinine as to attempt that.

 

You may want to look up liquidated damages clauses to see how they work. I wouldn't have spoken either if millions of dollars depended on it. I am quite surprised he said what he said to Maxim, frankly.

 

Believe me when I tell you that I really, really wish the whole story would get out, and that the right people are forced to admit their culpability. But I ain't optimistic.

So am I. Makes me think that either his NDA was not that strict and he stayed silent until now because that's his understanding of the correct behavior, or he had that on his chest for a while and just vented that piece of information among other things not realizing that THAT particular point was going to be one of the highlights of the transcript of the conversation. (I have no idea of the working "ethics" of Maxim, but I have met countless people who had been very "surprised" to read what reporters had kept from an hour long (or more) conversation :blink: )

 

As you are, I am not optimistic about ever hearing the whole real story. Juan-K and PC have disappeared (something neither is naturally inclined to) and all other actors in this tragedy have chosen to stay evasive and deafeningly silent, including very decent people such as Loick Peyron and Iain Percy.

 

As for legal consequences for TH, I doubt it will result in anything. Even if he had the leverage, TT doesn't seem to me (and I may very well be completely wrong) as the kind of guy who does that. A very angry phone-call (and/or letter from his lawyers) to TH would be closer to my perception of the guy's MO. (He knows he fucked up when he hired PC and gave him the keys.)

 

P.S: As much as I respect TH's achievements I doubt that his reservations about safety were the only reason Artemis dropped him. The fact that Artemis hired people like Nathan Outeridge and Loick Peyron well into their program clearly indicates they had reservation about TH as "chief on the water" in this new environment.

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Artemis did very well in the match racing portion of the ACWS with Hutch steering the boat. And the AC is a match racing contest. Based on that info I read Outeridge and Peyron were added probably because Hutch was making noise about the boat design, and Hutch is a bit abrasive, not based on performance, IMO.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America's_Cup_World_Series

 

WetHog :ph34r:

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Artemis did very well in the match racing portion of the ACWS with Hutch steering the boat. And the AC is a match racing contest. Based on that info I read Outeridge and Peyron were added probably because Hutch was making noise about the boat design, and Hutch is a bit abrasive, not based on performance, IMO.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America's_Cup_World_Series

 

WetHog :ph34r:

 

Don't try to confuse us with the facts when some want to only look at faults with one and not others.

 

He had a couple difficult ACWS races coming down the curve like the rest of them which some non believers here made it a point bitch about, but so did Loick, Dean and others, and ironically the complaints were not about results but style. I'll take results over style any day.

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Well I know Hutch doesn't need my help defending him, but since he is a local guy, and we are neighbors, sort of, I feel compelled.

 

Hutch was very competitive match racing the 45s. Very competitive. And he is a champion TP52 skipper. He can drive a AC62 if he had the opportunity.

 

He got the boot because he made his concerns known, probably doing so abrasively, and he got the boot. And now his concerns appear to be proven correct. Why tear the guy down?

 

WetHog

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Not permitted. And what would have happened if he just did? You think Artemis would sue a well-known ex-employee who publicly raised safety concerns that he clearly would have been well-qualified to raise? How do you think that would have played out, publicly and legally? Not many organisations are so asinine as to attempt that.

 

I am quite surprised he said what he said to Maxim, frankly.

Apparently he didn't and most of that is paraphrased bullshit. Maxim... not exactly a source of high quality journalism...

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Not permitted. And what would have happened if he just did? You think Artemis would sue a well-known ex-employee who publicly raised safety concerns that he clearly would have been well-qualified to raise? How do you think that would have played out, publicly and legally? Not many organisations are so asinine as to attempt that.

 

I am quite surprised he said what he said to Maxim, frankly.

Apparently he didn't and most of that is paraphrased bullshit. Maxim... not exactly a source of high quality journalism...

It's a good thing we got clean here for that HQ journalism......

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Artemis did very well in the match racing portion of the ACWS with Hutch steering the boat. And the AC is a match racing contest. Based on that info I read Outeridge and Peyron were added probably because Hutch was making noise about the boat design, and Hutch is a bit abrasive, not based on performance, IMO.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America's_Cup_World_Series

 

WetHog :ph34r:

 

Give me a break with the ACWS. There were only three crews that went through that series without massive changes: OR Spithill, ETNZ and Artemis. In the events where match racing wasn't a joke, i.e. 3 races per match in the knock off series, Artemis was anything but stellar.

 

On the other hand, Artemis was clearly the weakest of the big budget teams in the first season in terms of boat handling despite having had the opportunity to train early on AC45s. I have the deepest respect for TH's achievements throughout his career, but skipper (to my knowledge the first time at this level) in this new environment was beyond his abilities at that point in time.

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Leading a championship Audi Med Cup team is not on the same level as the AC?

 

 

Artemis did very well in the match racing portion of the ACWS with Hutch steering the boat. And the AC is a match racing contest. Based on that info I read Outeridge and Peyron were added probably because Hutch was making noise about the boat design, and Hutch is a bit abrasive, not based on performance, IMO.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America's_Cup_World_Series

 

WetHog :ph34r:

 

Give me a break with the ACWS. There were only three crews that went through that series without massive changes: OR Spithill, ETNZ and Artemis. In the events where match racing wasn't a joke, i.e. 3 races per match in the knock off series, Artemis was anything but stellar.

 

On the other hand, Artemis was clearly the weakest of the big budget teams in the first season in terms of boat handling despite having had the opportunity to train early on AC45s. I have the deepest respect for TH's achievements throughout his career, but skipper (to my knowledge the first time at this level) in this new environment was beyond his abilities at that point in time.

 

OR Spithill and ETNZ were led by James Spithill and Dean Barker. Both starting helmsman in the Cup match for AC34. Hutch finished ahead of both in points for match racing. Who gives a shit about the other teams in the ACWS. Hutch beat both James Spithill and Dean Barker in match racing.

 

And how can you say Artemis was the weakest of the big teams the first season in terms of boat handling when Artemis scored the most points from the match racing than any team. Including teams led by JS and DB? How can a weak boat handling team finish 1st in the one discipline that is the American's Cup, match racing? I don't follow your line of thought.

 

Also, how are we in this debate again? Oh thats right, I put forth my opinion as to why Hutch got sacked from Artemis. That is wasn't due to performance, but because he butted heads with his bosses over the boat. I stand by that opinion.

 

WetHog :ph34r:

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Facts are usually immaterial in a political forum.

 

Stop trying to confuse everyone from our pre-determined beliefs and biases, it's un-SAAC like.

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Facts are usually immaterial in a political forum.

 

Stop trying to confuse everyone from our pre-determined beliefs and biases, it's un-SAAC like.

Yeah I am done.

 

WetHog

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I met TH when he, Morgan Larson, and Francesco Bruni attended a couple of the A-Class winter circuit events in the Keys in 2011. He's a really nice guy (at least on shore) and he seemed pretty modest and humble as he raced an A-Class for the first time that winter with our class. It was quite exciting having all three to race against that year.

 

As I watched him enter the AC34 campaign in the ACWS on AC45's, it seemed like it may have always been too much too fast in terms of having to adjust to the realities of the speed of the racing and the handling of the boats especially when the breeze was on. He was always trying to catch up. I remember watching one windy AC45 race and he tried to round a weather mark hot and totally stuffed it while the other teams were depowering their wings before they turned down. Was it ego or inexperience but it was kind of a rookie mistake (at least to us cat sailors) that made me wonder if he could progress fast enough. Also in his interviews, my perception was that he did not show as much positive enthusiasm for the event as Spithill, Barker, Draper, NO, LP, and others. I was always a fan of his (still am) and wanted to see his program work but when Artemis announced they were bringing NO and LP in, I felt his days were numbered and I was not surprised when he was let go.

 

I'm not sure he is leveling criticism out of spite or bitterness or legitimate concerns. I've had sailors in my area tell me AC34 was the most exciting sailing event ever (I'm in that camp) and another tell me it was a joke and not "real" racing (that sailor was a grinder on the varsity team on Stars and Stripes in 1987 and he also sailed on Freedom and Liberty).

 

Interesting times and interesting personalities.

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You may want to look up liquidated damages clauses to see how they work. I wouldn't have spoken either if millions of dollars depended on it. I am quite surprised he said what he said to Maxim, frankly.

 

Believe me when I tell you that I really, really wish the whole story would get out, and that the right people are forced to admit their culpability. But I ain't optimistic.

So am I. Makes me think that either his NDA was not that strict and he stayed silent until now because that's his understanding of the correct behavior, or he had that on his chest for a while and just vented that piece of information among other things not realizing that THAT particular point was going to be one of the highlights of the transcript of the conversation. (I have no idea of the working "ethics" of Maxim, but I have met countless people who had been very "surprised" to read what reporters had kept from an hour long (or more) conversation :blink: )

 

As you are, I am not optimistic about ever hearing the whole real story. Juan-K and PC have disappeared (something neither is naturally inclined to) and all other actors in this tragedy have chosen to stay evasive and deafeningly silent, including very decent people such as Loick Peyron and Iain Percy.

 

As for legal consequences for TH, I doubt it will result in anything. Even if he had the leverage, TT doesn't seem to me (and I may very well be completely wrong) as the kind of guy who does that. A very angry phone-call (and/or letter from his lawyers) to TH would be closer to my perception of the guy's MO. (He knows he fucked up when he hired PC and gave him the keys.)

 

P.S: As much as I respect TH's achievements I doubt that his reservations about safety were the only reason Artemis dropped him. The fact that Artemis hired people like Nathan Outeridge and Loick Peyron well into their program clearly indicates they had reservation about TH as "chief on the water" in this new environment.

 

I have heard the whole story, pieced together from conversations with a half dozen AR team members over a year and a lot of alcohol, and subject to my agreement that I would not publish it. But it will eventually get out.

 

If you talk to the top designers and AC guys though, they generally believe that the fault lies mostly with Cayard though, which is why I believe he will never work at that level again. I believe he should pay more than he will for his reckless disregard of the boat's safety issues.

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Not permitted. And what would have happened if he just did? You think Artemis would sue a well-known ex-employee who publicly raised safety concerns that he clearly would have been well-qualified to raise? How do you think that would have played out, publicly and legally? Not many organisations are so asinine as to attempt that.

 

I am quite surprised he said what he said to Maxim, frankly.

Apparently he didn't and most of that is paraphrased bullshit. Maxim... not exactly a source of high quality journalism...

 

So Maxim just made it up? Give me a break. They are not that smart.

 

More likely, Hutch somehow thought 'off the record' means something to a journalist. Newsflash: It doesn't. One more reason I detest whatever it is people think a 'journalist' is.

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I'm not sure he is leveling criticism out of spite or bitterness

 

Hutch is just not that kind of guy.

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^ How will it get out though I wonder.

 

If the thing blows up because of a court action, won't there be even more reason for most to hold their cards to their chest?

 

Does the fact that Bart's family are Poms and probably less litigious mean the thing will stay under the carpet?

 

Long past time that the basics were out in the open. All those authorities who claimed jurisdiction over, or interest in the event, but none who feels the need, or is mandated to clarify what went wrong that day.

 

Can you really 'work' for sailing Anarchy and take info on a non-disclosure basis? I mean what's the point? Personal curiosity?