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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
QBF

Micro-Cruiser Anarchy

335 posts in this topic

The write-up on Fafnir is great discussion of the complex design issues for very small long range boats.

 

And this:

 

This is a very simple boat to build. I’ve been careful to keep the structure within the capability of a novice builder so she’s built of stringers and plywood planks over plywood bulkheads. This makes her very very strong, and a lot more capable than most would think a boat of this size could be. For someone with large dreams and a small budget, Fafnir might just be the ideal thing..

 

That's cool. When I first saw the little picture in the post I thought it was lapstrake. Nice looking little boat, but simplicity of plywood. Would like to see one built.

 

I'd also like to see the 10' boat from another designer that the original client ultimately attempted circumnavigation in.

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Those small, interesting looking boats do it for me too.

 

I am currently working on a 'souped up' Phil Bolger, Roger MacGregor concept - it might qualify as a Micro-Cruiser perhaps ?

 

 

 

Trying to drum up a case for it at schoolroad.weebly.com

 

Looks like a poor sailing boat and a terrible powerboat. Roger made a lot of money on that bad idea. Good luck! Fuck off and show us your wife or girlfriend's tits!

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Maybe there ought to be a "micro cruiser rental" business so that people can try out these ocean going 'micros' before buying or building

 

I suspect there area lot of people who should try being confined in small, wildly pitching containers in the middle of the ocean to avoid the reality being thrust upon them.

 

It definitely is an 'acquired taste'.

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If you have time to build and sail thats great!! Many people have very little free time and what time they do have typically would like to spend it sailing vs building. Nothing wrong with that also.

If we had more people see and hear that doing fun adventures on small boats is OK and possible sailing and just about any other boating type would be a bigger part of our society. Vs the standard view of boating being only a rich persons thing.

Yes, anything that gets more people on sailboats (especially small ones!) and having fun is good, and if actually cruising all the better. A you-must-build-it-yourself first attitude is of course the exact opposite of the easiest way to get people sailing in 2014. Man do I know it. I spent 1991-1996 building that little sharpie, countless weekends that I could have spent criss-crossing Biscayne Bay in an old used Hobie 16 bought for $900 and having a blast. Exactly as I did years later on Kaneohe Bay, Oahu. Much faster and easier way to get on the water.

 

 

 

.....

My own bias out of this experience is that a microcruiser should ideally be built by the person doing the cruising. It's an extension of the 'I'm all alone in this big world' ethos that seems to underly the microcruising concept.

... ...

 

Paradox is like a Micro on steroids. Neat boat, but I sure wouldn't want to build it, as pointed out earlier. Of course, I swore to never build another boat again so that's not saying much.

Personally I think that you, in swearing to not build another boat, show a high degree of common sense. There was a long interval of time in which buying a boat was expensive and difficult, and even now it consumes far more time than it should. However the current (likely long-term) economy dictating that buyers can find & buy 2nd-hand boats for pennies (or less) on the dollar has completely undermined the concept.

 

So what is simplicity and minimalism? Investing in the place and the tools and acquiring the expertise to BUILD a boat; or acquiring the boat at minimal investment? Obviously you have to learn enough to shop wisely.

 

FB- Doug

Well I definitely learned a lesson, but the Bolger build was just the end of my education on the subject. I watched my father spend the 80's beautifully rebuilding an old wooden 27' sloop (years longer than expected - stem replacement), immediately selling it to buy materials for building a cold-molded 35' John Marples trimaran, getting halfway done with that, and then dying before ever doing a single day of bluewater cruising with his family. After that, the experience of building my Bolger Jinni "Miss Inez" simply sealed the case that the way to go, for me anyway, is to go out and make some money in some kind of career, and buy a boat (or have one built).

 

So, ~20 years later, after sailing home-builts and cheap ancient beach cats, I'm buying an F24 Mark II. Only under contract right now, hope I'm not jinxing it. Corsairs have good build quality. I know a lot of Farrier designs are non-production built, but that doesn't make economic sense these days. Stoked! Shout out to Tom Ray for advice via pm.

 

I plan to sail this boat with my wife and 3 kids. Is a 24' tri with a crew of 5 microcruising?

 

What I am trying to get at on the builder-as-sailor idea has to do with the romance in the idea of solo sailing these little boats over great distances. Of course they can be, and maybe most are, just used for gunkholing. But it's the long passages in a microcruiser that really fascinate. And I think you can take it even farther in a Robinson Crusoe kind of way. The microcruiser is the answer to the following hypothetical:

 

Imagine yourself alone on a deserted island thousands of miles from nearest land with nothing but some sail cloth, a few sheets of marine ply, and a few gallons of West System. What boat do you build to sail yourself back to civilization?

I think some people really enjoy building. Maybe it's a distraction from their 9-5 or something else, who knows. Personally I agree that a good used boat is the way to go. Spending all my free time building something I want to use in my free time doesn't add up for me. Not to say that I don't admire people who do.

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Maybe there ought to be a "micro cruiser rental" business so that people can try out these ocean going 'micros' before buying or building

 

I suspect there area lot of people who should try being confined in small, wildly pitching containers in the middle of the ocean to avoid the reality being thrust upon them.

 

It definitely is an 'acquired taste'.

 

 

A micro-cruiser will certainly not be as comfortable as a larger craft, but they can get the job done, i.e. taking their owners cruising. But then, should someone not able to afford a larger craft just stay off the water?

 

I agree with what Bulbhunter so aptly stated:

 

<snip>

 

If we had more people see and hear that doing fun adventures on small boats is OK and possible sailing and just about any other boating type would be a bigger part of our society. Vs the standard view of boating being only a rich persons thing.

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The issue isn't about restricting sailing to rich people, but giving poor people who think that these small boats provide a glorious 'world adventure' a bit more insight into their limitations.

 

Small boats are great fun, but taking them around the world is a treacherous business, as this thread has already noted.

 

Getting people interested in sailing is one thing, keeping them interested and alive is another.

 

I would bet that most of these small boats are up for sale with 24 months of completion.

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The issue isn't about restricting sailing to rich people, but giving poor people who think that these small boats provide a glorious 'world adventure' a bit more insight into their limitations.

 

Small boats are great fun, but taking them around the world is a treacherous business, as this thread has already noted.

 

Getting people interested in sailing is one thing, keeping them interested and alive is another.

 

I would bet that most of these small boats are up

for sale with 24 months of completion.

I'd venture to guess few of the micro-cruisers are sailing around the world. Most are used for coastal gunkholing, If they are seaworthy enough to cross the Gulfstream to Bahamas... great!

A micro-cruiser is luxury compared to a pup-tent. I imagine thats the target market.

If someone gets their use out of the boat and puts it on the market 24 months later, fine. That makes it available for someone else to buy and use.

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the Mrs Cindy catamaran is one of my favorite microcruising designs. The Duo 480 is a similar design and is available for purchase.

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I remember reading an article somewhere about a Swedish couple building a fully enclosed & ballasted sailing canoe and sailing it across the pond and up the East Coast. 20' length but the beam was only 3 or 4 four feet.

 

Sound familiar to anybody? I remember it was a Swedish designer, and it was a shippy looking craft.

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I've always thought it would be awesome to have a small sailboat in the BWCWA (Boundary Waters Canoe Wilderness Area)

In most of the BWCA lakes, sailboats are banned because they are considered "motorized" (the sails generate power, so even a pram dinghy is a power boat).

 

I wish I was pulling that out of my ass.

jeezus... that's pretty pathetic

Though some areas of BWCA are motorized (ex. Saganaga). But stil...sheesh

 

The Montgomery 17 is supposedly very seaworthy -- whatever that means!

 

m17-photo1-500x394.jpg

 

 

How low can you go? There's a Montgomery 15 too:

 

M15-photo-d-13-500x.jpg

 

 

Both of these seem to have a cult following. Asking prices are healthy and they're not on the market long.

I've always liked the Montys. There was a 15 for sale on our street for $700. By the time I thought about checking it out it was gone.

Marc Hightower (who worked at the shop) took his modified 17 (decked over cockpit, different rig, solar panels, etc...) from Dana Point Hbr to Mexico and then points south and even then put it on a railcar for the crossed over into the Gulf of Mexico. Food cans were sealed with varnish and he had so much "stuff" onboard the freeboard left was scary (to me) looking.

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What an interesting thread this has been. Currently thinking of a larger boat, sold my Tiki 21 Wharram Cat a while ago. Great boat but the lack of cabin space was really annoying. Should have saved more and bought the Tiki 26 instead.

 

Looking at some Microcruiser designs, I would have to say the Catamaran/Trimaran type has the most appeal to me. The thought of being sat down and all cooped up for hours while doing a transit, just doesn't appeal at all. I like being able to move about. The cabin space in a Cat is a huge plus.

 

This rich v poor thing, I just don't get it. You can go out and build a boat from everyday items like that found in the average DIY store, and go have fun. For more money, you get an all singing and dancing fancy boat...but lack the guts to go do anything. Plenty of sailing club bars have their fair share of dreamers.

 

You know, years ago I once knew a man who built his own 'Yacht' which looked like a wardrobe with a pointy piece at one end, so the bow in other words. What an interesting craft, and an interesting man to chat to:) . He did build a revised version but then left these shores and left the project behind. I never did catch up with him. I knew nothing about sailing in those days, but that guy inspired me.

 

There have been plenty of such people around, heaven knows the world would be a very boring place without them. Wharram was the same, his first Catamaran was no beauty but it worked and gave birth to a range of his designs.

 

There really is a magic about sailing and being on your own little craft.

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"Currently thinking of a larger boat, sold my Tiki 21 Wharram Cat a while ago. Great boat but the lack of cabin space was really annoying. Should have saved more and bought the Tiki 26 instead. ..... This rich v poor thing, I just don't get it. "

 

Yes you do - you should have saved more (become richer) and you could have afforded a bigger boat. That was my previous point exactly. So you sold it - and if you are like the majority of boat builders, you wrote off a lot of time, money and effort for the memories.

 

The concept that little boats are for poor people is a fact of life - so my bank manager tells me.

If someone is so fascinated by water and wind that you get a buzz out bobbing around on a small wooden box - that's fantastic. I have done that too, and it is fun - but the chances are the fun decreases the more discomfort you suffer.

 

You get a lot of 'inverse snobbery' - where people insist that all rich boat owners are having a miserable time, and that true sailing has to be about suffering and sacrifice.

 

Also, the conviction that if you get people out sailing, on uncomfortable little boats, they will have fun - ain't necessarily so.

 

 

I am happier making sure that people with a sailing dream get as much accurate information about what they can really expect from small boats, so that all that time, money and effort doesn't end up as another big disappointment for everyone involved.

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Oh I think most people would research something like doing the long distance thing. My idea on micro stuff would be relying on being able to moor up or beach someplace and then set up camp to overnight; ideally sleeping on the boat and exploring the area during the day.

 

At the time the Tiki 21 suited my budget, the 26ft was around 4 times the price. But yes I see what you are saying. I was getting at general hacking about with your pride and joy, within the confines of known seaways. Its when money is piled into a useless project, that's a real waste of time.

 

I have seen my fair share of fancy Yachts, and the owners do genuinely use them as much as their time allows (they got business's to run etc) nothing wrong with comfort and quality. And yes, you get the opposite end..badly neglected boats which are to the point of dangerous. I certainly wouldn't ever out to sea in those.

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Serge Testa on his 11' 10 Acrohc Australis. Holder of world record for circumnavigation on smallest boat, as mentioned earlier.

post-110743-0-64510800-1410209188_thumb.jpg

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For every Serge there are a dozen of these

 

"Circumnavigating French sailor in 8ft boat rescued in Torres Strait "

"He set out from French Polynesia to circumnavigate the world in the smallest sailing boat ever, but he only got as far as Torres Strait between New Guinea and Australia's Cape York.


His name has not been released but he is known to be safe after a dramatic rescue from his eight-foot yacht.

The conditions were poor at the time of the rescue - 3m-high seas and 40 knot winds - but the solo skipper, identified as Daniel Alary, was reportedly suffering heart problems when he activated his emergency distress beacon in the Coral Sea in the early hours of one morning this week.

It is understood the sailor had been at sea for 100 days in his 2.9m microyacht Poisson d'Avril (April Fool) and boat, which had to be abandoned, is still adrift. "

 

http://www.sail-world.com/Cruising/SH/Circumnavigating-French-sailor-in-8ft-boat-rescued-in-Torres-Strait/111695

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Reminds me of a time about 10 years ago, had this guy turn up with a custom built rowing boat. Plan was to row around Antarctica in the WINTER! first time he set off I went down to wish him well. Was somewhat surprised to see him kitted out in a two piece oil skin that he had just bought from a farming shop. Watched him heating up a pot noodle on this gimballed stove. One wave would have swamped the thing and tore it out of its mount.

 

He didn't get far, drifted along and washed up at a nature reserve. Once the boat was recovered he tried again, but got swamped and had to be rescued. His boat was sunk when the ships crew couldn't figure out how to recover it (more a deliberate act)

 

Very sad, as he had spent a lot of money. He would have died anyway. The Southern Seas, let alone Antarctica, are not to be messed with.

 

Oddest thing? guy was ex Navy so should have realised the conditions having served in the 1982 Falklands War (the whole thing relied heavily on the Navy)

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There was a guy from, I think, New England, who set off to sail a little boat across the Atlantic. I forgot how big the boat was. Smaller than Paradox, as best I remember. When he set sail, it took him the best part of a day to beat out of the bay he started from. Not very auspicious. He was never seen again. Left a wife and maybe children.

 

Maybe late 70s, early 80s.

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There is a difference between micro cruising a small boat in interesting places vs just being silly and seeing how big of a body of water you can get across without getting smacked.

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Oh no, if you have a wife and children you have a duty to see that through. At least until the children are grown up and can look after themselves.

 

The rowing boat guy I mentioned was in the same thing, wife and kids. Best thing for him was having his boat sunk.

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I remember reading an article somewhere about a Swedish couple building a fully enclosed & ballasted sailing canoe and sailing it across the pond and up the East Coast. 20' length but the beam was only 3 or 4 four feet.

 

Sound familiar to anybody? I remember it was a Swedish designer, and it was a shippy looking craft.

 

Found it.

Sailing a 20' Sven Lundin design from Portugal to Maine, by way of the Canaries & Caribbean.

 

Pg.31

http://books.google.ca/books?id=jkM3nhtncxgC&lpg=PA31&ots=QZJ2k7-vyI&dq=%22lars%20sundvall%22%20sven%20lundin%20sailboat&pg=PA31#v=onepage&q=%22lars%20sundvall%22%20sven%20lundin%20sailboat&f=false

 

Anybody know of any English links showing some of his designs?

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Some great little ships in this thread.

I have not seen anyone mention the "Travels with Miss Cindy" series to be found at:

 

http://turtleislands.net/tmc/default.html (you will probably have to cut and paste to browser......)

 

Self built 16 foot ply cat cruised Baja Sea and pacific coasts down to Honduras and then across into lake and downstream to the Caribbean where he sailed via Cuba to Florida.

 

Great Boat, great account of the trip, and details of how he built the boat if you hunt around - very inspiring and done with a good deal of intelligence, humour and humility - all in all, a Classy act.

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the Mrs Cindy catamaran is one of my favorite microcruising designs. The Duo 480 is a similar design and is available for purchase.

 

She hadn't matured to the Mrs. stage, but here's a link to the adventures of Miss Cindy, a 16' catamaran microcruiser...

 

http://turtleislands.net/mc/default.html

 

Edit: oops, looks like I was redundant...

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Just a tease-

 

attachicon.gifMissCindy.jpg

great blog about that boat. Love the trip south with it on the roof of a Country Squire station wagon. Great cop stories.

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Maybe Aunt Edna rode in the boat ;-)

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Thanks for posting those. I vaguely remember the story. It was a "hold mah beer" type procedure getting the boat on and off the car. He had to explain himself to various authorities. At the end of the journey, he sold the car. An outstandingly inventive solution to moving a boat a long way over land.

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The issue isn't about restricting sailing to rich people, but giving poor people who think that these small boats provide a glorious 'world adventure' a bit more insight into their limitations.

 

Small boats are great fun, but taking them around the world is a treacherous business, as this thread has already noted.

 

Getting people interested in sailing is one thing, keeping them interested and alive is another.

 

I would bet that most of these small boats are up for sale with 24 months of completion.

 

Equally, now the assumption is that small boats don't need to be seaworthy for anything more than inshore stuff. I think that's a shame, you can design a small offshore seaworthy boat and they make great cruiser even if you just use them to do coastal stuff, even in the hands of a relatively inexperienced crew.

 

One French classic coming to my mind (6.4m, or 21ft) :

 

640px-Mousquetaire-572-sous-spi.jpg

 

Some people crossed the atlantic on it, most people used it for coastal cruising or racing, it is a mini cruiser (OK not micro), was affordable and many people managed to save the money to buy one.

 

You really don't need a 35 footer to cross the Atlantic, there is a sweet spot where you get the best capabilities for the money (18 to 28 ft IMHO), I think it is great to see people designing new micro cruisers. It would be even greater to see people buying them in mass again and this attitude "it needs to be big to be safe" doesn't help.

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Equally, now the assumption is that small boats don't need to be seaworthy for anything more than inshore stuff.

Some people crossed the atlantic on it, most people used it for coastal cruising or racing, it is a mini cruiser (OK not micro), was affordable and many people managed to save the money to buy one.

 

You really don't need a 35 footer to cross the Atlantic, there is a sweet spot where you get the best capabilities for the money (18 to 28 ft IMHO), I think it is great to see people designing new micro cruisers. It would be even greater to see people buying them in mass again and this attitude "it needs to be big to be safe" doesn't help.

 

I don't remember advocating lack of seaworthiness. You can have a perfectly seaworthy boat that can crawl around shallow protected shores eg Norwalk Island Sharpy etc.

You are supporting my point when by saying you need a minimum of 18ft. Oh, and by the way 18ft - 27 ft is a huge difference in scale. Its not nearly double the size, its the Cubed size increase.

 

Lets get back to the original size - say under 15ft. The whole problem of Micro Cruisers is Size and Shape.

 

Micro Cruisers -

Size - Lack of water and food storage for extended voyaging, Cramped and dangerous operating platform, Debilitating human environmental conditions especially in heavy weather, 1 person operator therefore fails to adhere to minimum watch regulations ( ever been run down at night by a tanker ? )

No Auxiliary Power - too small for effective and reliable non-sail power. Wind is free but not reliable. There are times your life is hanging on having an alternate propulsion method.

 

Shape - Deep full length keel makes coastal access limited, and more prone to grounding or impact a good distance off-shore. More difficult to control in tidal or wave influences in estuary's with little wind.

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Peep did a lot of cruising in the old British Sillouettes... 17 ft twin keelers. I'm not aware of any bluewater voyages in them, but it wouldn't surprise me.

http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=4230

I like the looks... think I would prefer a bulbed fin keel, though the twin keels do have a few advantages.

Good evening,

A Silhouette made a circumnavigation in the 70's. I think the boat was called Shrimpy and the skipper was Shane Acton. I read his book many years ago. He sailed mainly solo, but often had company too.

As the saying goes, "the best boat to go cruising with is the boat you've got now".

Regards,

Multisail.

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Peep did a lot of cruising in the old British Sillouettes... 17 ft twin keelers. I'm not aware of any bluewater voyages in them, but it wouldn't surprise me.

http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=4230

I like the looks... think I would prefer a bulbed fin keel, though the twin keels do have a few advantages.

Good evening,

A Silhouette made a circumnavigation in the 70's. I think the boat was called Shrimpy and the skipper was Shane Acton. I read his book many years ago. He sailed mainly solo, but often had company too.

As the saying goes, "the best boat to go cruising with is the boat you've got now".

Regards,

Multisail.

caprice

 

 

 

caprice.jpg

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Equally, now the assumption is that small boats don't need to be seaworthy for anything more than inshore stuff.

Some people crossed the atlantic on it, most people used it for coastal cruising or racing, it is a mini cruiser (OK not micro), was affordable and many people managed to save the money to buy one.

 

You really don't need a 35 footer to cross the Atlantic, there is a sweet spot where you get the best capabilities for the money (18 to 28 ft IMHO), I think it is great to see people designing new micro cruisers. It would be even greater to see people buying them in mass again and this attitude "it needs to be big to be safe" doesn't help.

 

I don't remember advocating lack of seaworthiness. You can have a perfectly seaworthy boat that can crawl around shallow protected shores eg Norwalk Island Sharpy etc.

You are supporting my point when by saying you need a minimum of 18ft. Oh, and by the way 18ft - 27 ft is a huge difference in scale. Its not nearly double the size, its the Cubed size increase.

 

Lets get back to the original size - say under 15ft. The whole problem of Micro Cruisers is Size and Shape.

 

Micro Cruisers -

Size - Lack of water and food storage for extended voyaging, Cramped and dangerous operating platform, Debilitating human environmental conditions especially in heavy weather, 1 person operator therefore fails to adhere to minimum watch regulations ( ever been run down at night by a tanker ? )

No Auxiliary Power - too small for effective and reliable non-sail power. Wind is free but not reliable. There are times your life is hanging on having an alternate propulsion method.

 

Shape - Deep full length keel makes coastal access limited, and more prone to grounding or impact a good distance off-shore. More difficult to control in tidal or wave influences in estuary's with little wind.

Here micro means 5.5m (18ft and a bit) or less. and mini means 6.5m (21.5ft) or less.

 

Sure the pay load of a small boat is limited but if you design it well enough you can carry several hundred kilos of stuff, sure a small boat is going to move a lot at sea but so will a 30 footer in the wrong kind of seas (try wave length about the size of the boat if not convinced). In bigger seas small boats tend to just bob up and down. Then whatever the boat size, the wrong wave at the wrong time will roll you, you just need to be prepared for it and make sure that you can keep water out of the boat. With the right skills and a good anchor, you don't need an auxiliary engine to be safe, I've raced many times across the English channel which is one of the busiest place in the world for commercial shipping and never felt the need to start the engine. Unless you are in a TSS you have priority over tankers for this very reason, if you call over VHF and ask nicely they will alter course.

 

Like many you seem to think that boats need to be big to be safe and that small boats should be restricted to inshore duties but that's simply not true. The generation of my parents used to cruise small boats. Every two year about 80 people leave the French shore to race singlehanded across the atlantic on mini (21.5ft) overpowered boats and the accident rate is not high. They've already crossed the bay of Biscay in gale winds.

 

IMHO, if you have a 15ft boat and want to travel, go for it as long as you prepare very well, can make sure that the craft is made really robust and watertight and that there is a righting plan if you happen to be rolled by the wrong kind of wave. Trying to circumnavigate on a 8 footer is a gimmick of interest only if you want to figure in the guiness book of records as the overall budget is not going to be wildly different from say a 16 footer which will have a much better (8 times in theory) carrying capacity as the materials cost start to be very low in comparison to the rest. I find the thinking that went behind the paradox boat really interesting.

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The following link has lots of good photo's of micro-cruisers taken on the way to, and during the Texas 200.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/sailhavasu/sets/72157645428702534/page3

Now this link is to photo's of Little Cruiser in the Bahamas. These were taken by the couple who purchased Matt Layden's Paradox prototype, and is just a bit longer than the Paradox.
http://www.microcruising.com/more1.htm

Please note: This couple has owned this boat since the late 1990's/early 2000 period, and have sailed this boat to the Bahamas 8-times so far, and at least one of those trips was 3-months duration. That's right, two people on a 15 foot boat for three months. From their smiles, they don't look uncomfortable, or in danger as someone in this thread keeps suggesting.

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I remember reading an article somewhere about a Swedish couple building a fully enclosed & ballasted sailing canoe and sailing it across the pond and up the East Coast. 20' length but the beam was only 3 or 4 four feet.

 

Sound familiar to anybody? I remember it was a Swedish designer, and it was a shippy looking craft.

 

Found it.

Sailing a 20' Sven Lundin design from Portugal to Maine, by way of the Canaries & Caribbean.

 

Pg.31

http://books.google.ca/books?id=jkM3nhtncxgC&lpg=PA31&ots=QZJ2k7-vyI&dq=%22lars%20sundvall%22%20sven%20lundin%20sailboat&pg=PA31#v=onepage&q=%22lars%20sundvall%22%20sven%20lundin%20sailboat&f=false

 

Anybody know of any English links showing some of his designs?

 

 

Sven Yrvind (Lundin) has his own website here:

http://www.yrvind.com/

 

I'm surprised that he hasn't been mentioned yet in this thread!

Lots of interesting reading about his previous boats and voyages and his current 10 footer he's building.

 

By way of introduction as I'm new here, I'm the builder and owner of the Paradox "Johanna" shown on the first posting.

I've also owned and sailed a 13' Voyager

claire2.jpg

 

and 18' Caprice made famous by Shane Acton.

 

post-113572-0-53017600-1411301110_thumb.jpg

 

There is nothing truer in the saying "The smaller the boat, the greater the fun".

I was converted to Paradox after following Glen Maxwell's build of "Zoe" and then his Sea Trial report.

From then on I was hooked!

 

 

Now off sailing this!

 

 

Regards

Pete

http://paradoxbuild-johanna.blogspot.co.uk/

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I remember reading an article somewhere about a Swedish couple building a fully enclosed & ballasted sailing canoe and sailing it across the pond and up the East Coast. 20' length but the beam was only 3 or 4 four feet.

 

Sound familiar to anybody? I remember it was a Swedish designer, and it was a shippy looking craft.

 

Found it.

Sailing a 20' Sven Lundin design from Portugal to Maine, by way of the Canaries & Caribbean.

 

Pg.31

http://books.google.ca/books?id=jkM3nhtncxgC&lpg=PA31&ots=QZJ2k7-vyI&dq=%22lars%20sundvall%22%20sven%20lundin%20sailboat&pg=PA31#v=onepage&q=%22lars%20sundvall%22%20sven%20lundin%20sailboat&f=false

 

Anybody know of any English links showing some of his designs?

 

 

Sven Yrvind (Lundin) has his own website here:

http://www.yrvind.com/

 

I'm surprised that he hasn't been mentioned yet in this thread!

Lots of interesting reading about his previous boats and voyages and his current 10 footer he's building.

 

By way of introduction as I'm new here, I'm the builder and owner of the Paradox "Johanna" shown on the first posting.

I've also owned and sailed a 13' Voyager

claire2.jpg

 

and 18' Caprice made famous by Shane Acton.

 

attachicon.gifcaprice.JPG

 

There is nothing truer in the saying "The smaller the boat, the greater the fun".

I was converted to Paradox after following Glen Maxwell's build of "Zoe" and then his Sea Trial report.

From then on I was hooked!

 

 

Now off sailing this!

 

 

Regards

Pete

http://paradoxbuild-johanna.blogspot.co.uk/

 

Nice to have you join in this discussion, Pete. Johanna, is a lovely boat, you should be most proud.

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I've linked to this blog before, but this site deserves more publicity.
http://daveskaife.wordpress.com

Dave is the person who sailed his micro-cruiser around the Hawaiian Islands. Dave's blog is full of information on his micro-cruiser, and on the items he finds useful on his boat. Dave has a number of varied posts, such as the following:

Bebi anchor light
http://daveskaife.wordpress.com/2014/09/21/gear-i-like-bebi-anchor-light

Hatch lock, keeping honest people honest
http://daveskaife.wordpress.com/2014/09/18/hatch-lock-keeping-honest-people-honest

Comfortable Microcruising: Ventilation
http://daveskaife.wordpress.com/2014/09/15/comfortable-microcruising-ventilation

Dual purpose running lights
http://daveskaife.wordpress.com/2014/09/06/dual-purpose-running-lights

Comfortable Microcruising: The Padded Cell
http://daveskaife.wordpress.com/2014/09/02/comfortable-microcruising-the-padded-cell

 

img_0430.jpg

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This video was taken by a couple sailing a Bolger Long Micro sailboat on Lake Erie.




Bolger Long Micro
picbolger16ab.jpg

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Here is another micro-cruiser, and this one is junk rigged.

 

"Dissatisfied with the available production boats for what he terms mini cruising, Bill Longyard decided to design and build his own, to "show what could be done with 14 feet". And show he did, and then some."

 

"His little Lucky Town design has sitting headroom for two and enough enough space for a six footer to stretch out comfortably. There is a flush toilet and holding tank and provision for a shower, though the shower's not yet implemented."

 

http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/longyard/luckytown/index.htm

 

lucky%20town1.jpg

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I like this very much but haven't been able to find any details:

post-30-0-63263900-1411831018_thumb.jpg

post-30-0-47192500-1411831034.jpg

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I like this very much but haven't been able to find any details:

Shell boats crab claw cat?

 

http://www.shellboats.com/sb_crabclawcat.html

That foresail looks to be very inefficient except with the wind on the beam. And the long unsupported length above the A-frame will require a fairly heavy spar. A better solution might be a gunter rig., with or without a small jib.

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I like this very much but haven't been able to find any details:

Shell boats crab claw cat?

http://www.shellboats.com/sb_crabclawcat.html

Thanks for that! Still couldn't find any details but there was enough in the pictures to estimate size. I wouldn't use the rig(s) they show-probably a single aft mast with roller furled geny. It would be such a great intercoastal weekender/ cruiser.

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A friend of mine owned one of those Crab Claw Cats, quite possibly the green one in the pic.

 

It sailed absolutely horribly. Yes, I mean even compared to a Sun Cat. Waaaaay worse than a MacGregor 26.

 

He did various rig and keel mods trying to fix it, but nothing really helped much. He eventually abandoned the rig and used it as a micro-trawler for a while, then sold it.

 

Here's a pic I took of him sorta sailing one day. We were sailing our Corsair F-27 and using his boat as a more-or-less-stationary mark.

 

butch.jpg

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A friend of mine owned one of those Crab Claw Cats, quite possibly the green one in the pic.

 

It sailed absolutely horribly. Yes, I mean even compared to a Sun Cat. Waaaaay worse than a MacGregor 26.

 

He did various rig and keel mods trying to fix it, but nothing really helped much. He eventually abandoned the rig and used it as a micro-trawler for a while, then sold it.

 

Here's a pic I took of him sorta sailing one day. We were sailing our Corsair F-27 and using his boat as a more-or-less-stationary mark.

 

butch.jpg

 

Very cool looking little boat, but the fun is kinda spoiled by having be woefully slow. I would guess that the hulls are building up a pressure wave between them, and are also sailing at a skew angle due to lack of underwater foils, plus don't have much drive from the unconventional sail plan.

 

Isn't it funny how these designs which supposedly represent advanced thinking, and reject so much that's wrong with Western Civilization (and presumably the science which goes along with it), generally don't do much except prove that Western Civ got it mostly right.

 

FB- Doug

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The crab claw cat is sort of on the other end of the spectrum from Jim Michalak's designs. They work well, but are very plain, even clunky, in appearance;

 

scram01.jpg

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BTW, there are lots of little catamaran designs that have been proven to work. (I don't have any personal experience...) The Jarcats have been around for awhile:

 

j6sail1.jpg

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A friend of mine owned one of those Crab Claw Cats, quite possibly the green one in the pic.

 

It sailed absolutely horribly. Yes, I mean even compared to a Sun Cat. Waaaaay worse than a MacGregor 26.

 

He did various rig and keel mods trying to fix it, but nothing really helped much. He eventually abandoned the rig and used it as a micro-trawler for a while, then sold it.

 

Here's a pic I took of him sorta sailing one day. We were sailing our Corsair F-27 and using his boat as a more-or-less-stationary mark.

 

butch.jpg

That rig is slightly different than the picture several posts above. Note the spar is tacked inline between the A-frame, making the spar vertical. I would call it a modified bat-wing sail (as used on late 19th century sailing canoes). It's probably far more efficient than the sail pictured earlier, which has the spar tacked at the bow and sets at a low angle. Not only is that inefficient to windward (not that the boat will go well to windward anyway), but the angle (and gravity) will cause the boom to want to swing to the centerline... it will have to be held out when broad reaching or running.

The boat is kind of cute, but looks to be a poor sailer, no matter the rig. Outside the box thinking isn't automatically bad, but it needs to be carefully thought outt. Being weird just for the sake of being weird is just plain wrong... Flyin' Hawaiian is a perfect example.

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Yeah, the original sails were like that other pic. The bat wings were supposed to fix the power problem, but didn't.

 

There was also a terrible balance problem. He wound up chopping off a good sized chunk of both keels.

 

The changes helped, but it still sailed horribly. I think Doug is probably right that something pretty fundamental is wrong with the design.

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I'm surprised no one has mentioned the hartley TS16

 

http://www.australianhartleyts16.org.au/assoc/info.html

 

http://hartley-ts.com.au/Gallery/GallerySearch.php

 

There's active class racing here on sydney harbour, and the association has monthly cruises!

 

Also found this link to a 2001 article from Australian Sailing listing a bunch of micro and mini TS cruisers

 

http://www.australyachts.com.au/lib/pdf/editorial/austsailing_oct01.pdf

 

I probably lusted after one or two of those boats when I was younger kid Oddly, I had the Noelex 25 poster on my bedroom wall for some time.

 

Cheers

Craig

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Fred Shell is still at it: The Schooner 21

 

Schooner_21_1024x768_Dscn3301.jpg

 

 

That's clever - look how he overcomes the problem of forward progress by dragging the motor. I hate boats that scoot around over 2 knots :P

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Fred Shell is still at it: The Schooner 21

 

Schooner_21_1024x768_Dscn3301.jpg

 

 

That's clever - look how he overcomes the problem of forward progress by dragging the motor. I hate boats that scoot around over 2 knots :P

Hes making at least 3knots given the OB is clearly running. LOL

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BTW, there are lots of little catamaran designs that have been proven to work. (I don't have any personal experience...) The Jarcats have been around for awhile:

 

j6sail1.jpg

I don't think I have ever seen a boat hobby horse as badly as a jarcat, and I have only ever seen them racing in protected waters! I think there is a minimum length/weight for cats, too short or too heavy and there will be pain

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We ran into a group of West Wight Potterers in Gorge Harbour, they had towed them into Lund from all over North America, launched there and "did" Desolation Sound. They were having a lot of fun.

 

I think Kurt Vonnegut called it a Granfalloon.

 

potters.jpg

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Fred Shell is still at it: The Schooner 21

 

Schooner_21_1024x768_Dscn3301.jpg

 

 

That's clever - look how he overcomes the problem of forward progress by dragging the motor. I hate boats that scoot around over 2 knots :P

Hes making at least 3knots given the OB is clearly running. LOL

 

One of the participants in the Sun Cat Nationals never raises his engine to race. He never wins either, but it's surprising how little difference it makes. The drag of the hull is enormous compared to the foot of the engine. It's an almost undetectable difference. I still tilt mine.

 

You do have to leave it in neutral. Leave it down with the prop locked and the motor mount bounces around as the passing water tries to spin the prop. The speed difference becomes detectable.

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BTW, there are lots of little catamaran designs that have been proven to work. (I don't have any personal experience...) The Jarcats have been around for awhile:

 

j6sail1.jpg

I don't think I have ever seen a boat hobby horse as badly as a jarcat, and I have only ever seen them racing in protected waters! I think there is a minimum length/weight for cats, too short or too heavy and there will be pain

 

Interesting comment. I've never seen a Jarcat at dock, let alone sailing.

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BTW, there are lots of little catamaran designs that have been proven to work. (I don't have any personal experience...) The Jarcats have been around for awhile:

 

j6sail1.jpg

I don't think I have ever seen a boat hobby horse as badly as a jarcat, and I have only ever seen them racing in protected waters! I think there is a minimum length/weight for cats, too short or too heavy and there will be pain

Cant see that here

- all short boats hobby a bit, ones with heavy bulb keels particularly

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BTW, there are lots of little catamaran designs that have been proven to work. (I don't have any personal experience...) The Jarcats have been around for awhile:

 

j6sail1.jpg

I don't think I have ever seen a boat hobby horse as badly as a jarcat, and I have only ever seen them racing in protected waters! I think there is a minimum length/weight for cats, too short or too heavy and there will be pain

Cant see that here - all short boats hobby a bit, ones with heavy bulb keels particularly

I have only seen jarcats racing in the Bay to Bay, we used to start after them and sail through the fleet. They all looked alright until there was a little bit of chop on the bow, which seemed to affect them more than anything else in the fleet. Maybe the short shop is just the wrong period for a Jarcat in the Sandy straights. Are you going upwind in that video, or reaching?

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Here is a short video of the JarCat "Prototype" under sail

 

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The issue isn't about restricting sailing to rich people, but giving poor people who think that these small boats provide a glorious 'world adventure' a bit more insight into their limitations.

 

Small boats are great fun, but taking them around the world is a treacherous business, as this thread has already noted.

 

Getting people interested in sailing is one thing, keeping them interested and alive is another.

 

I would bet that most of these small boats are up for sale with 24 months of completion.

 

Equally, now the assumption is that small boats don't need to be seaworthy for anything more than inshore stuff. I think that's a shame, you can design a small offshore seaworthy boat and they make great cruiser even if you just use them to do coastal stuff, even in the hands of a relatively inexperienced crew.

 

One French classic coming to my mind (6.4m, or 21ft) :

 

640px-Mousquetaire-572-sous-spi.jpg

 

Some people crossed the atlantic on it, most people used it for coastal cruising or racing, it is a mini cruiser (OK not micro), was affordable and many people managed to save the money to buy one.

 

You really don't need a 35 footer to cross the Atlantic, there is a sweet spot where you get the best capabilities for the money (18 to 28 ft IMHO), I think it is great to see people designing new micro cruisers. It would be even greater to see people buying them in mass again and this attitude "it needs to be big to be safe" doesn't help.

 

 

 

The issue isn't about restricting sailing to rich people, but giving poor people who think that these small boats provide a glorious 'world adventure' a bit more insight into their limitations.

 

Small boats are great fun, but taking them around the world is a treacherous business, as this thread has already noted.

 

Getting people interested in sailing is one thing, keeping them interested and alive is another.

 

I would bet that most of these small boats are up for sale with 24 months of completion.

 

Equally, now the assumption is that small boats don't need to be seaworthy for anything more than inshore stuff. I think that's a shame, you can design a small offshore seaworthy boat and they make great cruiser even if you just use them to do coastal stuff, even in the hands of a relatively inexperienced crew.

 

One French classic coming to my mind (6.4m, or 21ft) :

 

640px-Mousquetaire-572-sous-spi.jpg

 

Some people crossed the atlantic on it, most people used it for coastal cruising or racing, it is a mini cruiser (OK not micro), was affordable and many people managed to save the money to buy one.

 

You really don't need a 35 footer to cross the Atlantic, there is a sweet spot where you get the best capabilities for the money (18 to 28 ft IMHO), I think it is great to see people designing new micro cruisers. It would be even greater to see people buying them in mass again and this attitude "it needs to be big to be safe" doesn't help.

what is this? very very close to pulling trigger on bayraider even if it doesn't fit the micro category....must admit the Denman built ones look bit nicer finished but not sure there is any truth to that and gonna be hard enough to get one to US from across pond never mind around the world...

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I think it is a serpentaire 22, French, plywood and the design that won the first minitransat in 1979. jacques mertens used to sell plans and then created an updated design based on it called the vagabond 23. I would post a link jacques site but I am having trouble imbedding links. search vagabond 23 and or jacques mertens

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I think it is a serpentaire 22, French, plywood and the design that won the first minitransat in 1979. jacques mertens used to sell plans and then created an updated design based on it called the vagabond 23. I would post a link jacques site but I am having trouble imbedding links. search vagabond 23 and or jacques mertens

 

Micro Yacht - Small offshore trailerable homebuilt yachts

http://microyacht.webs.com/microyachts.htm

 

Vagabond 23 - Study Plans

http://www.bateau.com/studyplans/VG23_study.htm?prod=VG23

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I think it is a serpentaire 22, French, plywood and the design that won the first minitransat in 1979. jacques mertens used to sell plans and then created an updated design based on it called the vagabond 23. I would post a link jacques site but I am having trouble imbedding links. search vagabond 23 and or jacques mertens

In another thread somebody posted a link to a Haida 26, and the first thing I thought was how similar it looked to Jacques Mertens Vagabond. I always liked flush deck designs.

 

st4.JPG

 

st2.JPG

 

http://www.amateurboatbuilding.com/justright/index.htm

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i was pretty active on Jacques' discussion board 10 years ago when Justin built "just right". I really like the 18 ft sport boat Jacques has developed. When AECL (federal government nuclear research outfit) shut down its office here 20 years ago, the very last thing to come off the plotter were the patterns for Jacques D4 dingy :>)

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The issue isn't about restricting sailing to rich people, but giving poor people who think that these small boats provide a glorious 'world adventure' a bit more insight into their limitations.

 

Small boats are great fun, but taking them around the world is a treacherous business, as this thread has already noted.

 

Getting people interested in sailing is one thing, keeping them interested and alive is another.

 

I would bet that most of these small boats are up for sale with 24 months of completion.

Equally, now the assumption is that small boats don't need to be seaworthy for anything more than inshore stuff. I think that's a shame, you can design a small offshore seaworthy boat and they make great cruiser even if you just use them to do coastal stuff, even in the hands of a relatively inexperienced crew.

 

One French classic coming to my mind (6.4m, or 21ft) :

 

640px-Mousquetaire-572-sous-spi.jpg

 

Some people crossed the atlantic on it, most people used it for coastal cruising or racing, it is a mini cruiser (OK not micro), was affordable and many people managed to save the money to buy one.

 

You really don't need a 35 footer to cross the Atlantic, there is a sweet spot where you get the best capabilities for the money (18 to 28 ft IMHO), I think it is great to see people designing new micro cruisers. It would be even greater to see people buying them in mass again and this attitude "it needs to be big to be safe" doesn't help.

This is a Muscadet. Popular in France. Lots of good pics and interesting info on the googles.

 

dain

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Not a 'micro' amongst any of these - thank goodness !

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Not a 'micro' amongst any of these - thank goodness !

There is a canoe guru that laments the Super-Sizing of Norte Americos.... All his favourite 13' canoes aren't being built anymore because anybody over 140lbs are cramped in them.

 

Same for Micro's I suspect.

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Here is a Suncat 17 to add to the mix.

Sailboat Data

http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?CLASS_ID=5926

Builder's website

http://www.com-pacyachts.com

 

Those aren't Micro Cruisers. They are class racing machines!

 

I like that the company logo is misplaced on one sail. Sun Cat sailors are sometimes just a bit wrong too, but at this time of year we are training hard and getting pumped up for the Nationals. Or at least starting to think about those things.

 

http://www.suncatnationals.com

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I saw Swirly World at the Auckland boat show recently; an 18 footer that has crossed the Tasman and circumnavigated NZ. The boat seems really well sorted, and is surprisingly spacious inside. Note the dinghy too, it has a forestay going straight through it!

 

post-100684-0-52184200-1412585633_thumb.jpg

 

http://www.radiolive.co.nz/Swirly-World/tabid/479/articleID/10645/Default.aspx

 

The Hartley 18 is also a nice boat. Much more spacious than the 16.

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Not a 'micro' amongst any of these - thank goodness !

 

 

Dnomyar, if you dislike micro-cruisers so much, why do you keep posting in this thread? You sure seem to have a serious dislike for these boats.

 

Maybe you should start your own thread where you can tell people what boat you will allow them to purchase, and where you will allow them to cruise.

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This is not a micro, but it is what I got, and we did 12 days on her this summer to Block Island.

She's barely a 4 knot-er, but she is

20 feet

fun to sail,

economical to motor (22 miles on 1.5 gallons at 5.2 knots)

inexpensive

trailer-able, with simple single axle

lead ballast, and no hull or deck core to leak and get soggy

Easy to put in and out of the water

Fixed fin keel for decent performance, but still only 3.5 feet deep to anchor on the edges.

and fun to sail.

post-44205-0-84095800-1412885147_thumb.jpg

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nice...but what is it? :)

This is not a micro, but it is what I got, and we did 12 days on her this summer to Block Island.

She's barely a 4 knot-er, but she is

20 feet

fun to sail,

economical to motor (22 miles on 1.5 gallons at 5.2 knots)

inexpensive

trailer-able, with simple single axle

lead ballast, and no hull or deck core to leak and get soggy

Easy to put in and out of the water

Fixed fin keel for decent performance, but still only 3.5 feet deep to anchor on the edges.

and fun to sail.

attachicon.gifDSC_5359.jpg

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This is not a micro, but it is what I got, and we did 12 days on her this summer to Block Island.

She's barely a 4 knot-er, but she is

20 feet

fun to sail,

economical to motor (22 miles on 1.5 gallons at 5.2 knots)

inexpensive

trailer-able, with simple single axle

lead ballast, and no hull or deck core to leak and get soggy

Easy to put in and out of the water

Fixed fin keel for decent performance, but still only 3.5 feet deep to anchor on the edges.

and fun to sail.

attachicon.gifDSC_5359.jpg

 

Nice little cruiser you have there, Adirondacker.

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attachicon.gifspace_sailer_20_-_information_brochure_wm-rotated.pdf

 

 

It is a Space Sailer............yeah, I know, the name is weird.

It is Australian design, but this was made in Montana by a short lived company. Big benefit is it is lead instead of iron ballast compared to Australian design.

No wonder they were 'short lived' - the price of lead V steel ( which you can often pick up for free ) is considerable for very little benefit on a boat like this.

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Performance benefit is little granted, but the maint benefit is great,

I spent too many springs grinding the keel of my paceship 26, and of a certain mariner 19 keel in a vain attempt to stop the rust. Even a yard sandblast and paint treatment was not very long lasting.

I like to do a wax job on the boat, then do a little varnish and call it a year.

I love the look of a varnished wood boat......but man it is hard to justify the time when there are so many other things to do.

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attachicon.gifspace_sailer_20_-_information_brochure_wm-rotated.pdf

 

 

It is a Space Sailer............yeah, I know, the name is weird.

It is Australian design, but this was made in Montana by a short lived company. Big benefit is it is lead instead of iron ballast compared to Australian design.

No wonder they were 'short lived' - the price of lead V steel ( which you can often pick up for free ) is considerable for very little benefit on a boat like this.

I had the bigger brother Swarbrick Admiral 21 lovely little proper yacht. Inner forestay, lead fin keel, heaps of storage, reefing points etc. they where also built without a core. Very seaworthy.

 

It was quite a beamy little boat being 4 berth & 21' so it didn't like going upwind in a chop.

 

If I was to spend any decent time in something I would want sitting headroom & lazy jacks.

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Performance benefit is little granted, but the maint benefit is great,

I spent too many springs grinding the keel of my paceship 26, and of a certain mariner 19 keel in a vain attempt to stop the rust. Even a yard sandblast and paint treatment was not very long lasting.

I like to do a wax job on the boat, then do a little varnish and call it a year.

I love the look of a varnished wood boat......but man it is hard to justify the time when there are so many other things to do.

I did the keel on my Paceship using POR15 and had very little rust after that.

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The issue isn't about restricting sailing to rich people, but giving poor people who think that these small boats provide a glorious 'world adventure' a bit more insight into their limitations.

 

Small boats are great fun, but taking them around the world is a treacherous business, as this thread has already noted.

 

Getting people interested in sailing is one thing, keeping them interested and alive is another.

 

I would bet that most of these small boats are up for sale with 24 months of completion.

 

Equally, now the assumption is that small boats don't need to be seaworthy for anything more than inshore stuff. I think that's a shame, you can design a small offshore seaworthy boat and they make great cruiser even if you just use them to do coastal stuff, even in the hands of a relatively inexperienced crew.

 

One French classic coming to my mind (6.4m, or 21ft) :

 

640px-Mousquetaire-572-sous-spi.jpg

 

Some people crossed the atlantic on it, most people used it for coastal cruising or racing, it is a mini cruiser (OK not micro), was affordable and many people managed to save the money to buy one.

 

You really don't need a 35 footer to cross the Atlantic, there is a sweet spot where you get the best capabilities for the money (18 to 28 ft IMHO), I think it is great to see people designing new micro cruisers. It would be even greater to see people buying them in mass again and this attitude "it needs to be big to be safe" doesn't help.

what is this? very very close to pulling trigger on bayraider even if it doesn't fit the micro category....must admit the Denman built ones look bit nicer finished but not sure there is any truth to that and gonna be hard enough to get one to US from across pond never mind around the world...

It is a muscadet It was designed by Harle and is still very much loved. Although it was designed as a cruising boat there is a lot of muscadet racing going on in Brittany nowadays.

 

 

I think it is a serpentaire 22, French, plywood and the design that won the first minitransat in 1979. jacques mertens used to sell plans and then created an updated design based on it called the vagabond 23. I would post a link jacques site but I am having trouble imbedding links. search vagabond 23 and or jacques mertens

 

 

The Serpentaire was newer, more racy than the muscadet and won the first mini transat :

RRuLGeekTVE3SDqGIBrM7HVhw6c.jpg

 

 

That little French boat is pretty good lookin'. Anyone hear of a Corsair? lemme look for a link...

 

Ahh, here we go. Corsaire. 18'. Another attractive French design.

http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=4073

 

 

The Corsaire is 5.5m and an older design than the muscadet

IMGP0189.jpg

 

Corsaire are still manufactured, these are good boats but not as seaworthy as the 2 others.

 

In France, mini = less than 6.5m and micro = less than 5.5m. The Serpentaire and the muscadet are minis and the corsaire is a micro.

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The Serpentaire is rather odd looking, but I like it. The stem angle, rocker, and chine location remind me a lot of the Lindenburg 22 Mini-ton. One I used to sail was even the same yellow color. Those were pretty neat boats, and fun to sail... I'll look for a link.

Here a pic:

http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=94

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This mini tonner definitely looks cool. Yes the Serpentaires was a bit odd, I don't think that it was a commercial success despite winning the mini-transat.

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This mini tonner definitely looks cool. Yes the Serpentaires was a bit odd, I don't think that it was a commercial success despite winning the mini-transat.

The L22 Mini-ton wouldn't be a good offshore boat, though. I had one out in 30+ knots and steep 6-8' seas in the Gulf of Mexico during an overnight race one time. Pretty intense and nerve-racking.

The boat does have a daggerboard and deck-stepped mast, though. Easy to trailer and ramp launch. I'd reccomend it for protected waters, and coastal sailing in good conditions.

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Ask Kelly the designer of the L22, the first one was designed for the minitransat is the rumour I heard once.

But that was in 77, and racing was tough, but not fast :)

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