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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
QBF

Micro-Cruiser Anarchy

335 posts in this topic

I'm familiar with the first one... it used to be at YC I belonged to, along with several others. I did a fair bit of work on it, and raced it several times. It was not built for the Mini-transat, as the LOA limit for that is 21'. L22 has all the IOR stern distortions... it was designed for IOR Mini-ton level racing. The chines are located on the IOR measurement points. Kelly did design, build, and sail a custom miniton which won the worlds. Mr. Bill's Dog was the name. Thats a different boat.

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Ah, thanks, so a one-off miniton by Kelly, will fire up google... have interest in the early designs of the MT...

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At the small end of the micro-cruiser range, is Matt Layden's, ENIGMA.

Enigma tips the scales at only 180 pounds empty, and without ballast.

"Matt constructed the boat in 2005, and then entered her in the 2006 Watertribe Ultimate Challenge to place first in her class in this gruelling 1200 mile race..."

Design Particulars
LOA- 3.6 m/ 11'-10"
LWL- 3.24 m/ 10'-8"
BEAM- 1.087 m/ 43"
DRAFT- 0.155 m/ 9"
SAIL AREA- 5.4 sqm/ 57 sqFt
DISP-267Kg/ 588 lbs

http://www.microcruising.com/Enigma.htm


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Fred Shell is still at it: The Schooner 21

 

Schooner_21_1024x768_Dscn3301.jpg

 

That's clever - look how he overcomes the problem of forward progress by dragging the motor. I hate boats that scoot around over 2 knots :P

 

 

Hes making at least 3knots given the OB is clearly running. LOL

 

 

One of the participants in the Sun Cat Nationals never raises his engine to race. He never wins either, but it's surprising how little difference it makes. The drag of the hull is enormous compared to the foot of the engine. It's an almost undetectable difference. I still tilt mine.

 

You do have to leave it in neutral. Leave it down with the prop locked and the motor mount bounces around as the passing water tries to spin the prop. The speed difference becomes detec

 

 

Sorry Tom but I can't let you get away with that.

 

 

Removed the saildrive on a 25ft boat, made a hell of a difference, maybe 20 percent.

 

Rob

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Fred Shell is still at it: The Schooner 21

 

Schooner_21_1024x768_Dscn3301.jpg

 

That's clever - look how he overcomes the problem of forward progress by dragging the motor. I hate boats that scoot around over 2 knots :P

 

Hes making at least 3knots given the OB is clearly running. LOL

 

One of the participants in the Sun Cat Nationals never raises his engine to race. He never wins either, but it's surprising how little difference it makes. The drag of the hull is enormous compared to the foot of the engine. It's an almost undetectable difference. I still tilt mine.

 

You do have to leave it in neutral. Leave it down with the prop locked and the motor mount bounces around as the passing water tries to spin the prop. The speed difference becomes detec

 

Sorry Tom but I can't let you get away with that.

 

 

Removed the saildrive on a 25ft boat, made a hell of a difference, maybe 20 percent.

 

Rob

Anybody else notice the engine seems to be running?

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... ...

One of the participants in the Sun Cat Nationals never raises his engine to race. He never wins either, but it's surprising how little difference it makes. The drag of the hull is enormous compared to the foot of the engine. It's an almost undetectable difference. I still tilt mine.

 

You do have to leave it in neutral. Leave it down with the prop locked and the motor mount bounces around as the passing water tries to spin the prop. The speed difference becomes detec

 

Sorry Tom but I can't let you get away with that.

 

 

Removed the saildrive on a 25ft boat, made a hell of a difference, maybe 20 percent.

 

Rob

 

Hard to believe that dragging a prop is "almost undetectable." Most of the times I've seen boats with mounts that made it difficult to get the prop even 2/3 out of the water, you could tell the difference and one small boat I tried lost all speed immediately the sails lost power; the owners could not make the boat tack and were sure it was because they did not know how to sail well enough.

 

Shucks, I like to brag about how casual and unconcerned I am because I leave my outboard tipped up on the transom instead of taking it below like the J-24s and Ensigns do.

 

FB- Doug

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I had an outboard mount on the back of my Shark when we used to race. The motor got tilted up but stayed on the transom. It made a nice prod in those port / starboard crossings.

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Matt Layden is pretty impressive. A real outside the box thinker... not in a wacko sense, but in a well thought out and engineered fresh sheet of paper sense.

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I agree about Matt Layden. Matt is a very talented designer.

 

It would be interesting to see a new, larger version of his Paradox come off his drawing board. Something in the 20 foot range. And who would have thought that someone would sail their ENIGMA from Florida to the Bahamas? Matt's boats are out performing most everyone's expectations.

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All I can really say about dragging the engine around is that this picture was taken during a race at the 2010 Sun Cat Nationals, that boat appears to be in front of me, and my engine was up. I still tilt it up, but it was disturbingly difficult to catch that guy!

 

indyannaracin-lg.jpg

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For a nationals level regatta, they look very relaxed. My kind of racing.

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Amazing variety of cool boats 20 feet and under. Of course,

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For a nationals level regatta, they look very relaxed. My kind of racing.

 

She's showing perfect Jib Trimmer form.

 

Sun Cat Class Racing is special. In a short-bus kinda way. If anyone isn't relaxed and having fun, I'll throw them right the hell out.

 

Sincerely,

The Head Jib Trimmer In Charge

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I've read that creek-sailor blog... pretty good.

Maurice Griffiths wrote a nice book of stories from his decades of cruising the Thames Estuary. Worth looking for.

From several books and stories I've read, it appears converted lifeboats were pretty popular in England in the first half of 20th century... inspired, I guess, by Erskine Childer's The Riddle Of The Sands (first of the spy novel genre). The boats were available surplus, for a few pounds, from ship-breaker yards. I dunno.... a guy in Tampa acquired a fg lifeboat about 25 years ago and rigged it up for sailing. It was really bad. He sailed it to Key West, about 200 miles, and took him 2 weeks. Thats slower than Rimas. I don't think he ever sailed it after that.

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I've read that creek-sailor blog... pretty good.

Maurice Griffiths wrote a nice book of stories from his decades of cruising the Thames Estuary. Worth looking for.

From several books and stories I've read, it appears converted lifeboats were pretty popular in England in the first half of 20th century... inspired, I guess, by Erskine Childer's The Riddle Of The Sands (first of the spy novel genre). The boats were available surplus, for a few pounds, from ship-breaker yards. I dunno.... a guy in Tampa acquired a fg lifeboat about 25 years ago and rigged it up for sailing. It was really bad. He sailed it to Key West, about 200 miles, and took him 2 weeks. Thats slower than Rimas. I don't think he ever sailed it after that.

 

I'm guessing that same boat made it up coast to Coconut Grove where it sat in the anchorage for 10 years I know of; just another derelict boat going nowhere.

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I have another blog by an owner of a micro-cruiser.

 

Jim Times is located in the UK, and this blog, like Dylan's has some very nice photo's on that part of the world.

Sailing my Paradox and country living
http://jimtimes.wordpress.com

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Here is a new video I found about an overnight cruise on a Paradox.


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In other micronews, I saw on Facebook the other day that someone is building an aluminum SCAMP.

 

Why? Not sure

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In other micronews, I saw on Facebook the other day that someone is building an aluminum SCAMP.

 

Why? Not sure

 

Maybe they have ready access to free aluminium.

 

scamp1.jpg

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In other micronews, I saw on Facebook the other day that someone is building an aluminum SCAMP.

 

Why? Not sure

 

Maybe they have ready access to free aluminium.

 

scamp1.jpg

 

It won't rot. It'll corrode instead, I suppose, but my 1958 aluminum skiff is still holding up pretty good.

 

9767_792793074092899_5216445303009412719

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In other micronews, I saw on Facebook the other day that someone is building an aluminum SCAMP.

 

Why? Not sure

 

Maybe they have ready access to free aluminium.

 

scamp1.jpg

 

It won't rot. It'll corrode instead, I suppose, but my 1958 aluminum skiff is still holding up pretty good.

 

9767_792793074092899_5216445303009412719

 

For a small sailboat, it just seems like it would be a bit heavy for it's length by building with aluminum.

 

Powerboat, OK, tiny sailboat not so much...

 

On the bright side, one could slam into the rocks and not need to worry about sinking.

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My dear departed parents cruised their International Dragon all over the San Juan and Gulf Islands into their 80's.

 

Boom Tent, Bucket and Camp Stove.

 

At 29' I am not sure a Dragon would be called micro, but it was fast and weatherly.

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My dear departed parents cruised their International Dragon all over the San Juan and Gulf Islands into their 80's.

 

Boom Tent, Bucket and Camp Stove.

 

At 29' I am not sure a Dragon would be called micro, but it was fast and weatherly.

 

I always thought that a Dragon would make a nice coastal cruiser.

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Check this out: Conny van Rietschoten, of whitbread fame, two time winner and Dutch: in 1948 he sailed his dragon from Cowes to Norway: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conny_van_Rietschoten

 

 

"In 1948 Conny van Rietschoten and his friend Morin Scott sailed their Dragon class yacht Gerda from Cowes England across the North Sea to Arendal to compete in that year's Dragon Gold Cup world championship. They did not win, but Crown Prince Olaf of Norway proclaimed the two sailors the best at the regatta for sailing by far the furthest distance."

 

 

That's a cool story! Thanks!

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I've been a member of The Catboat Association for a long time, and, at one time, I owned a 15-foot catboat. I've always thought that one day I might get rid of the big boat (28') and go back to catboating. I enjoy the people and the low-key racing. There are a couple of problems with this scenario, for instance, my wife made me promise not to die and leave her with more than one boat to get rid of. Also, I don't have a particular choice among the common models of FG catboats.

 

The most recent issue of the Catboat Bulletin has an ad for a design I didn't know about, and it's more to my taste. it's the Helton Solo II. The hull is of normal, rather than Cape Cod Catboat, proportions. I grew up in New Jersey, and NJ catboats were slimmer than CC catboats. I found an out-of-date ad on BoatQuest for a second boat.

 

The rig is different. The mast rotates, and the sail furls by being rolled up on the mast. The problem of attaching a boom to a rotating mast is solved by dead-ending it on a post (called a pylon in one ad I found). This was also done on some traditional cats back in the day, though I couldn't find a picture of one this morning, and i forget what the fitting is called. Maybe a "crab".

 

Picture from BoatQuest.

Helton Solo

The ads say "wing keel." I would say "low aspect ratio keel with a couple of tiny appendages for no reason except to give you something to break when launching or retrieving from a trailer." I wouldn't want to go out catboat racing with a modern boat that's a sure winner (like the Alerion Cat). This keel is going to be less efficient that the high AR centerboards that a lot of cats have.

Helton Solo keel

This boat from the Catboat Bulletin is rigged differently. It has long battens that won't roll. I don't know what's up with the boom.

Helton Solo Alt

It's not pretty; it's bland. The full-width cabin could make going forward an adventure, and the absurd little lifelines are not going be a big help. But it's interesting. To me, anyway.

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Here is a small trimaran for your pleasure.

Dalliance: A Micro-Cruising Small Trimaran 17' 6" LOA

 

compmb.jpg


Estimated Cost of Dalliance in her current configuration is approximately $7,850

• Torqeedo – $1,435
• Sails – $860
• Mast & Rigging – $350
• Trailers – $420
• Main Hull Construction & out fitting – $2,950
• Ama Construction – $960
• Telescoping Akas – $875

Here is the link for complete information on this tri
http://smalltrimarans.com/blog/?p=9342

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I have seen Dalliance in person a couple of times and talked to the owner/builder at length one day in Pelican Bay. He was there with the (FL) West Coast Trailer Sailing Squadron. Nice guy with interesting ideas, one of which was that it might be possible to do the Everglades Challenge with some degree of personal comfort and speed. The boat grew out of that idea, but has not been put to that test.

 

He is the guy on the right.

 

trimaran-dalliance-lg.jpg

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Miss Cindy was always my favorite micro cruiser! I liked following that guy. I also follow Steve Early in Spartina, previously posted in this thread as well.

 

When I was little, our first boat was a 17' with a big oval window in the front of the cabin. I know we did some overnights on that thing, and we were a family of four. We 'upgraded' to a Coronado 25 pretty quick though. :D

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I've been a member of The Catboat Association for a long time, and, at one time, I owned a 15-foot catboat. I've always thought that one day I might get rid of the big boat (28') and go back to catboating. I enjoy the people and the low-key racing. There are a couple of problems with this scenario, for instance, my wife made me promise not to die and leave her with more than one boat to get rid of. Also, I don't have a particular choice among the common models of FG catboats.

 

The most recent issue of the Catboat Bulletin has an ad for a design I didn't know about, and it's more to my taste. it's the Helton Solo II. The hull is of normal, rather than Cape Cod Catboat, proportions. I grew up in New Jersey, and NJ catboats were slimmer than CC catboats. I found an out-of-date ad on BoatQuest for a second boat.

 

The rig is different. The mast rotates, and the sail furls by being rolled up on the mast. The problem of attaching a boom to a rotating mast is solved by dead-ending it on a post (called a pylon in one ad I found). This was also done on some traditional cats back in the day, though I couldn't find a picture of one this morning, and i forget what the fitting is called. Maybe a "crab".

 

Picture from BoatQuest.

The ads say "wing keel." I would say "low aspect ratio keel with a couple of tiny appendages for no reason except to give you something to break when launching or retrieving from a trailer." I wouldn't want to go out catboat racing with a modern boat that's a sure winner (like the Alerion Cat). This keel is going to be less efficient that the high AR centerboards that a lot of cats have.
This boat from the Catboat Bulletin is rigged differently. It has long battens that won't roll. I don't know what's up with the boom.
It's not pretty; it's bland. The full-width cabin could make going forward an adventure, and the absurd little lifelines are not going be a big help. But it's interesting. To me, anyway.

 

One of the cool effects of mounting the boom at a pylon placed behind the mast would be to open the sail as you let it out; conversely, it would flatten as you hardened up, kind of encouraging proper shape via geometry. Lots of room for analysis/experimentation - you could put the foot of the boom on a track as the loads wouldn't be too great there.

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Semi, that little catboat shouldn't have a cabin.

 

The second example probably has no boom, just lots of full length battens and a loose foot. Easier on the noggin if you get careless. ;)

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In other micronews, I saw on Facebook the other day that someone is building an aluminum SCAMP.

 

Why? Not sure

 

Maybe they have ready access to free aluminium.

 

scamp1.jpg

is that an alden behind them? malabar maybe?

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One of the cool effects of mounting the boom at a pylon placed behind the mast would be to open the sail as you let it out; conversely, it would flatten as you hardened up, kind of encouraging proper shape via geometry. Lots of room for analysis/experimentation - you could put the foot of the boom on a track as the loads wouldn't be too great there.

 

True, though it looks too far aft to me, the results of which would not be pretty. Without a vang, the look of the sail with sheets started is likely to be very ugly.

 

The second example probably has no boom, just lots of full length battens and a loose foot. Easier on the noggin if you get careless. ;)

 

And if long battens are close enough together, they can limit the ugly twist, at least a little.

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Miss Cindy was always my favorite micro cruiser! I liked following that guy. I also follow Steve Early in Spartina, previously posted in this thread as well.

 

When I was little, our first boat was a 17' with a big oval window in the front of the cabin. I know we did some overnights on that thing, and we were a family of four. We 'upgraded' to a Coronado 25 pretty quick though. :D

 

I like Miss Cindy, but up until now, my favourite has been Matt Layden's Paradox. However, I am really taken by the Dalliance trimaran.

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Miss Cindy was always my favorite micro cruiser! I liked following that guy. I also follow Steve Early in Spartina, previously posted in this thread as well.

 

When I was little, our first boat was a 17' with a big oval window in the front of the cabin. I know we did some overnights on that thing, and we were a family of four. We 'upgraded' to a Coronado 25 pretty quick though. :D

 

I like Miss Cindy, but up until now, my favourite has been Matt Layden's Paradox. However, I am really taken by the Dalliance trimaran.

 

I like the Dalliance builder's description of his youth, with his father having Jim Brown over for dinner to discuss multihulls. And I thought I found religion simply because my dad gave me a copy of "the case for the cruising multihull" when I was still in my teens. Kind of like the Dalliance builder, it took me another two and half decades before I owned my first tri, but the seed was planted early. Cool little boat.

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I've sailed in company with Dalliance several times. I hope it she finds a good home.

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Next up is Andrew Fagan's Swirly World, a 5.4 metre (17 feet, 9 inch) yacht.

There was mention of Swirly World in an earlier post, but it deserves its own post with more information.

Ex Rocker Becalmed in Round NZ Attempt
http://www.news.sail-world.com/Ex_Rocker_Becalmed_in_Round_NZ_Attempt/31289

Andrew Fagan: Swirly World: The Solo Voyages
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/lifestyle/news/article.cfm?c_id=6&objectid=383465

Swirly World : The Solo Voyages
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/186950402X/duckworksmagazin

Andrew Fagan: Swirly World Sails South 6-6-12 Radio Wammo Show

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I've sailed in company with Dalliance several times. I hope it she finds a good home.

 

I hope she did.

 

2 hours ago on the West Coast Trailer Sailing Squadron Facebook page:

 

It’s with a sad heart that I report to the Squadron the passing of Ron ---------. Ron was a passionate sailor, designer and builder.

 

His bright yellow trimaran, Dalliance, graced our outings several times, and enjoyed and admired wherever Ron sailed her.

 

Ron sailed past the last sand bar, and we’ll all miss his winning smile and quick mind.

 

I'm sad and a bit shaken by this news. He seemed to be about my age but in better health when I met him in 2012.

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I thought this thread deserved a bump, so here is another post on Dave Skaife who I had previously posted in this thread.
https://daveskaife.wordpress.com

Dave planned to ship his Paradox from Hawaii to south Texas and do the Texas 200. Unfortunately, Dave's plans did not work as well as he hoped. However, Dave is in Texas, and is enjoying sailing his Paradox on the mainland.

 

Sometimes smaller works better...

 

img_0318.jpg?w=529

Warm & dry inside during a storm

 

img_0330.jpg?w=529

A very happy Hawaiian in Texas

img_0393.jpg?w=529

 

 

img_0384.jpg?w=529

On the beach

img_0396.jpg?w=529

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The "smaller works better" thing can often be true of boats and is virtually never true of cleats. I like the cleats on that Paradox. They look way too large. That's how I like cleats.

 

Also, midship cleats are not just for 40+ footers. I note the Paradox has a nice one.

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I guess a TIKI 21' is on the large end of the scale, but to circumnavigate in one is nevertheless impressive. I can't find much on Rory McDougall and "Cooking Fat" but here's a synopsis:

http://www.jesterinfo.org/rorymcdougall.html

 

Here is a link to Rory's website. Nice addition to the thread, thanks.

http://www.roryandcookie.com

 

From the Community Pages on James Wharram Designs site

http://wharram.eu/live/article.php?story=20100414170141573

 

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thank YOU, qbf. cool footage. I remember there was something, either pics or a vid, of McDougall in a Tasman Sea storm, I'll have to take some time to search

 

I used to have a T21' and caught some weather one time and was just amazed at what a fine storm boat it was. Wharram (really Boon designed the TIKI iirc) really do come up with some good boats

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A unique design from Québec, introducing the "Paraduck!"

This boat is a cross between a Puddle Duck Racer and a Paradox. The boat is 8 feet long, 4 feet wide, and has a reefable sprit sail. It's small enough to fit in the bed of a pickup truck.

From the designer/builder

For when my Paradox is too much boat, on small lakes without a ramp for example, I built myself a «Paraduck». It can be sailed from the inside like the Paradox when it rains and I can sleep in it very comfortably. It is much slower than the Paradox, but who’s in a hurry?

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I miss the micro cruiser thread.

 

It is more a mini cruiser than a micro but this guy went around Britain with a 6.4m boat starting from Normandy. 1960s design that is still loved in Brittany and around. It is in French and not to Dylan's standards but he doesn't speak much... I think that it is interesting nonetheless because it shows what you can do on a small boat with standard skills.

 

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I miss the micro cruiser thread.

 

It is more a mini cruiser than a micro but this guy went around Britain with a 6.4m boat starting from Normandy. 1960s design that is still loved in Brittany and around. It is in French and not to Dylan's standards but he doesn't speak much... I think that it is interesting nonetheless because it shows what you can do on a small boat with standard skills.

 

 

video_msg.png

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I miss the micro cruiser thread.

 

It is more a mini cruiser than a micro but this guy went around Britain with a 6.4m boat starting from Normandy. 1960s design that is still loved in Brittany and around. It is in French and not to Dylan's standards but he doesn't speak much... I think that it is interesting nonetheless because it shows what you can do on a small boat with standard skills.

 

 

That reminds of of our locally built Haida - praised by the Maestro hisself.

 

post-95343-0-47759300-1463535092_thumb.jpg

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video_msg.png

It looks like UMG has managed to copyright wind noises! :angry:

 

 

That reminds of of our locally built Haida - praised by the Maestro hisself.

 

attachicon.gifHaida.jpg

Interesting boat, is it a one off or a production boat?

 

It actually is more similar to the "big brother" of the muscadet, the cognac :

 

COGNAC-lateral2.jpg

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The Haida was a production boat here in the 60's & 70's. It was built by a number of yards with a number of different decks. Started out in the config. pictured but later had a modified flush deck then a sort of wedge deck and then a really ugly box trunk put on it.

 

The flush deck versions were the best looking IMO.

 

https://www.google.ca/search?q=haida+26+pics&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjk5MTq--PMAhWHnJQKHdVnBekQsAQIGw&biw=1920&bih=940

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Thanks SloopJonB. They look like well designed and seaworthy, it is my kind of boats.

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The Haida is one of my all time favorite boats. Great looking in the original config and a joy to sail. In many ways the Haida design is very similar to the PERRYWINKLE Norlin design I owned for 15 years.

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I miss the micro cruiser thread.

 

It is more a mini cruiser than a micro but this guy went around Britain with a 6.4m boat starting from Normandy. 1960s design that is still loved in Brittany and around. It is in French and not to Dylan's standards but he doesn't speak much... I think that it is interesting nonetheless because it shows what you can do on a small boat with standard skills.

 

A little more about the Muscadet: http://1001boats.blogspot.com/2011/11/muscadet-french-peoples-boat.html

 

Philipe Harlé's Muscadet is a French legend. In the early 1960s the Muscadet helped “democratise” the sport of sailing, making ownership of a real coastal cruiser affordable for the ordinary working man.

[...]

What is most surprising about the boxy little Muscadet is that, as well as being a capable and roomy small family cruiser, it turned out to be an exceptional mini ocean racer. Its outstanding successes in this field could be compared to a VW Beetle winning the Monaco Grand Prix and the 24 Heures Du Mans.

[...]

Claude Harlé, Philippe's wife, thought it ugly, and taking a tin of anchovies from her larder as a template, she traced three oblong porthole openings on the Muscadet plans. With these windows and a broad contrast stripe painted under the sheerline, the Muscadet's looks were marginally improved, and the boat sailed, with little further preparation, across the Bay of Biscay from Nantes in heavy weather, to take part in a One-Of-A-Kind Rally organised by a yachting magazine at La Rochelle.

[...]

In 1977 when already around 750 Muscadets were afloat, the first Mini-Transat singlehanded race for yachts of 6.5 metres overall length was announced. This race, though conceived and organised in Britain, attracted a large number of young French entrants, and 6 out of the 26 starters were sailing Muscadets, even though the design was already 14 years old.

 

5 Muscadets finished the gruelling race from Penzance to Antigua in the West Indies. The first 3 of them finished 4th, 6th and 11th.

Muscadet%2B6.jpg

 

 

More images: https://www.google.com/search?q=muscadet+sailboat&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiQ9vrHj-TMAhXDPB4KHS6kBCoQsAQIHA&biw=1366&bih=667#imgrc=kFcTkSNq5UhE5M%3A

 

People & Boats: Vive Le Muscadet

 

Muscadet1.jpg

 

Muscadet2.jpg

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@Proa Yes, the muscadet is a very special boat to many in western France. 50 years after it was designed the racing is still fierce and in my area (St Malo) if you want a boat that can do one design racing and cruising you just try to find a muscadet or a J80! Despite the boxy form and the old design, the boat is nice to steer. Because it is so easy to gybe and to tack, the races are quite tactical, it is also light and easy to handle thus a perfect introduction to solo racing.

 

@Francesco bringing the meaning of small to a new dimension. In French :

 

mini -> less than 6.5m (21.3ft)

micro -> less than 5.5m (18ft)

Thus if we carry on with the pattern :

nano -> less than 4.5m (14.8ft)

pico -> less than 3.5m (11.5ft)

 

Now we need a pico cruisers thread!!!

 

@Bob The cirrus 7.8 and the haida both look right to my eyes, these are boats I am sure I would really enjoy owning.

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Muscadet = a beautifull boat.

 

French designers have allways impressed me: Herbulot, Harle, Vivier....

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Pico but maybe not cruiser.

 

eclate-laser-pico-plus-52591_1b.jpg

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Muscadet = a beautifull boat.

 

French designers have allways impressed me: Herbulot, Harle, Vivier....

 

That goes back a long, long way. British Naval captains during the Napoleonic era liked being assigned to captured French ships because they were so much better than the British vessels. They were usually in pretty good shape too because they hadn't been used much. ;)

 

The British were by far the better seamen but they lagged badly behind the French in ship design.

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Muscadet = a beautifull boat.

French designers have allways impressed me: Herbulot, Harle, Vivier....

 

That goes back a long, long way. British Naval captains during the Napoleonic era liked being assigned to captured French ships because they were so much better than the British vessels. They were usually in pretty good shape too because they hadn't been used much. ;)

 

The British were by far the better seamen but they lagged badly behind the French in ship design.

 

British better seamen...mmmmm. Read Bouganville 's account of circumnavigation.

 

The french are more romantic. The British more hard-nosed (realists).

 

Moitessier vs Knox Johnston

 

Titouan Lamazou vs Ellen McArthur

 

Romanticism is nice but - beware - can lead to varying degrees of madness.

 

I suspect that many french sailors are somewhat "anti capitalist" . At least some that I meet in my latitudes. Mild "acquatic hippies" (obsolete term). But excellent sailors all the same.

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You are talking about nowadays and small boats - my reference was to 200 years ago and Naval ships. There is no question they were better then - the British ruled the oceans of the world for hundreds of years

 

The French seem to have a hugely disproportionate representation in offshore sailing these days. They have had for quite a long time now - several decades.

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Muscadet = a beautifull boat.

French designers have allways impressed me: Herbulot, Harle, Vivier....

 

That goes back a long, long way. British Naval captains during the Napoleonic era liked being assigned to captured French ships because they were so much better than the British vessels. They were usually in pretty good shape too because they hadn't been used much. ;)

 

The British were by far the better seamen but they lagged badly behind the French in ship design.

 

I always wondered why the French boats had their guns in the transom.....

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Muscadet = a beautifull boat.

 

French designers have allways impressed me: Herbulot, Harle, Vivier....

 

That goes back a long, long way. British Naval captains during the Napoleonic era liked being assigned to captured French ships because they were so much better than the British vessels. They were usually in pretty good shape too because they hadn't been used much. ;)

 

The British were by far the better seamen but they lagged badly behind the French in ship design.

 

 

To be in charge in the French navy pre revolution, you had to be an aristocrat. They mostly were chased from the navy (or mudered) during the revolution and the navy was pretty useless after this during the Napoleonic wars. Even if it never really ruled the waves, the French navy wasn't that bad before, it helped the USA against the Brits during their revolution.

 

Since the revolution I don't think that the French navy has ever won a significant battle, during my national service my ship nearly sank a British yacht but that was an accident and thus doesn't count :rolleyes: .

 

You can't compare French sailors, fishermen and merchantmen to those on the "grey ships", very different cultures. Also we don't have a true maritime culture like the Brits do, the sea just interests a very small subset of people. Before Brittany became French its merchant navy was the size of the Dutch one (not bad for a small bit of land about the size of Cornwall) to gradually become insignificant with time under French influence.

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Muscadet = a beautifull boat.

 

French designers have allways impressed me: Herbulot, Harle, Vivier....

 

That goes back a long, long way. British Naval captains during the Napoleonic era liked being assigned to captured French ships because they were so much better than the British vessels. They were usually in pretty good shape too because they hadn't been used much. ;)

 

The British were by far the better seamen but they lagged badly behind the French in ship design.

 

 

To be in charge in the French navy pre revolution, you had to be an aristocrat. They mostly were chased from the navy (or mudered) during the revolution and the navy was pretty useless after this during the Napoleonic wars. Even if it never really ruled the waves, the French navy wasn't that bad before, it helped the USA against the Brits during their revolution.

 

Since the revolution I don't think that the French navy has ever won a significant battle, during my national service my ship nearly sank a British yacht but that was an accident and thus doesn't count :rolleyes: .

 

You can't compare French sailors, fishermen and merchantmen to those on the "grey ships", very different cultures. Also we don't have a true maritime culture like the Brits do, the sea just interests a very small subset of people. Before Brittany became French its merchant navy was the size of the Dutch one (not bad for a small bit of land about the size of Cornwall) to gradually become insignificant with time under French influence.

 

 

Or that's the story you're sticking with anyway. ;)

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Or that's the story you're sticking with anyway. ;)

Yes with all this entente cordiale business, we can't avenge Trafalgar. We've to sell to the Argies our planes and missiles and let them do the destroyer sinking. Orthewise we are stuck with pretending that the sinking was an accident or winning their offshore races but that's no substitute for sending ships down to the bottom. :ph34r:

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I've linked to this blog before, but this site deserves more publicity.

http://daveskaife.wordpress.com

 

Dave is the person who sailed his micro-cruiser around the Hawaiian Islands. Dave's blog is full of information on his micro-cruiser, and on the items he finds useful on his boat. Dave has a number of varied posts, such as the following:

 

Bebi anchor light

http://daveskaife.wordpress.com/2014/09/21/gear-i-like-bebi-anchor-light

 

Hatch lock, keeping honest people honest

http://daveskaife.wordpress.com/2014/09/18/hatch-lock-keeping-honest-people-honest

 

Comfortable Microcruising: Ventilation

http://daveskaife.wordpress.com/2014/09/15/comfortable-microcruising-ventilation

 

Dual purpose running lights

http://daveskaife.wordpress.com/2014/09/06/dual-purpose-running-lights

 

Comfortable Microcruising: The Padded Cell

http://daveskaife.wordpress.com/2014/09/02/comfortable-microcruising-the-padded-cell

 

img_0430.jpg

My buddy Pat is storing this boat at his shop in Pensacola until the skipper returns from Hawaii to continue his journey.

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Or that's the story you're sticking with anyway. ;)

Yes with all this entente cordiale business, we can't avenge Trafalgar. We've to sell to the Argies our planes and missiles and let them do the destroyer sinking. Orthewise we are stuck with pretending that the sinking was an accident or winning their offshore races but that's no substitute for sending ships down to the bottom. :ph34r:

 

Yes, we bought the Etendard + Exocet system but last-minute programming of the missile had to be done hurriedly here -- apparently NATO pressure forced French technicians to leave Argentina before final adjustments of weapon systems were finished.

 

Severe damage to HMS Sheffield was the result.

 

One of our naval officers told me French technicians were not very happy to be recalled back -- they wanted to be sure missiles would work. Avenging Trafalgar perhaps?

 

Sorry for the thread drift.

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When I was watching the war on the tube it looked like the Argies were flying A4 Skyhawks.

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When I was watching the war on the tube it looked like the Argies were flying A4 Skyhawks.

 

Skyhawks: Argentine Air Force (A4B) and Naval Aviation (A4C)

 

Mirage: AAF

 

Super Etendard: Naval Aviation (land based). Exocet missiles claimed HMS Sheffield and Atlantic Conveyor. Also HMS Glamorgan hit by Exocet fired from land platform (DIY experiment succesfully carried out by naval officer)

 

Again, sorry for thread drift

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It's quite hard to make a small boat look good and I think that they were quite succesful. There is a bit of a Bolger heritage here and they sell it as a "flatpack", much more exciting than furniture!

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I like the graphics

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Seems a bit heavy for its size with that 100 lb board. It is a cool boat.

 

I ran into Randy Smyth the other day at our local sailing center and was talking to him about the Everglades Challenge. I told him I kind of want to do it just because it's my kind of boating and takes place in waters I've played in my whole life and yet I still think there's a decent chance I could try and fail. It's not often someone comes up with a boating idea involving my kind of boats in my back yard and I'm not sure I could do it.

 

I can't wait to see his new wingsail on Sizzor but what he does, tearing down the coast on the outside, really doesn't seem all that challenging to me. At least, not in a boating-specific way. He stays awake for a VERY long time, which would be hard no matter what you're doing, but it's not boating-specific.

 

The challenging part to me, and thus the only part worth doing, is getting that gator's tooth. Into the River of Grass I'd go. At least the edge of it.

 

So would I rather take that Bedard boat through The Nightmare or my Hobie Adventure Island. Darn AI wins again. If only I could get used to the idea of spending most of a week in a drysuit.

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I've enjoyed reading about all these micro cruisers quite a bit. Here's my new favorite which I don't think has been mentioned, River of Grass by JF Bedard.

attachicon.gifRoG-Presentation_website.jpgattachicon.gifYD38S-Render1.jpg

 

https://www.bedardyachtdesign.com/designs/sail/15-rog-micro-cruiser/

https://www.facebook.com/BedardYachtDesign/photos/?tab=album&album_id=1156886184432078

I like it a lot.

 

I keep doodling something similar except that the rear is decked and that there is a water ballast.

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Hey Pan,

It does have water ballast. 80 lbs per side.

 

Tom,

You mean the board is heavy or you think the whole boat is heavy? I have no plan to do the Everglades Challenge, but I have heard some talk of developing RAID events on the west coast.

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100 lbs strikes me as heavy for a board on a boat that size and the boat itself seems a bit heavy for its size as a result. So both.

 

Just trying to envision a single person pushing a loaded boat off the beach. Sounds like a lot of grunting might be involved.

 

OTOH, I've seen a rather elderly (but tough as nails) guy push his Sea Pearl 21 off the beach by himself so it can be done.

 

I've also seen lots of grunting. I'm feeling nice today so I won't post my video of Mr. Moon. ;)

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Hey Pan,

It does have water ballast. 80 lbs per side.

 

Doh, I missed it. On my iterations, I was thinking more of a central water ballast with enough freeboard to make the boat self-righting till 100-110º and light enough to be launchable from a beach.

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100 lbs strikes me as heavy for a board on a boat that size and the boat itself seems a bit heavy for its size as a result. So both.

 

Just trying to envision a single person pushing a loaded boat off the beach. Sounds like a lot of grunting might be involved.

 

OTOH, I've seen a rather elderly (but tough as nails) guy push his Sea Pearl 21 off the beach by himself so it can be done.

 

I've also seen lots of grunting. I'm feeling nice today so I won't post my video of Mr. Moon. ;)

Thanks for that. To be fair it was my first time, and the next four launches all went a lot better.

 

I think first launch for the Bedard boat is today. I'll be interested to see it myself next month. I'm not doing the EC this year but will be inspecting first timers.

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Photo of the JF Bedard boat pulled off FB today.

16712064_10155809053912586_5379840711272

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The Bedard boat is very interesting. I like it...very suitable for EC. I don't think weight is a problem at all...it's in the ballpark of a Daysailer weight. Weighted board not only helps stability, but eliminates needing a CB downhaul. It's in the ballpark of a FS or thistle CB weight, lighter than a Lightning. Two aboard for an EC would be a bit cramped but doable. 15' really makes it an ideal size to singlehand. Cat Ketch rig will be very easy for a singlehand to handle. Sail area appears adequate. Pointing upwind will suffer a little, as will light air performance, but it will reach in moderate to fresh breeze very well. Innovative approach to the interior. Looks like the price is for pre-cut panels? Seems reasonable.

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Thanks Moon, hadn't seen that pic yet. I like it.

 

So does the EC require you to move the boat a certain distance across sand? Could you roll it over a few foam pool noodles? Baja dinghy wheels?

 

Tom, I just read about the gator's tooth and I see what you mean. Some day, on some boat, I hope I can take a cruiserly shot at it.

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You gotta launch the boat from above the high tide line to wherever the water is at 7am. Might be close, might be 100' depending on the tide.

 

Big inflatable rollers are the preferred method. We've done pretty good the last couple of years, usually getting to the water in the first couple minutes. My first time took <ahem> longer. Tom has the video, but I don't like to watch it very much. Cringe-worthy when it's you, right?

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Thanks Moon, hadn't seen that pic yet. I like it.

 

So does the EC require you to move the boat a certain distance across sand? Could you roll it over a few foam pool noodles? Baja dinghy wheels?

 

Tom, I just read about the gator's tooth and I see what you mean. Some day, on some boat, I hope I can take a cruiserly shot at it.

Have to launch off the beach above high tide line. You can use whatever devices to launch you wish, but have to carry them with you. No help allowed. Smaller boats and beach cats just drag into water. Heavier boats usually use heavy duty inflate able rollers, which can also double as flotation when lashed into boat.

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The Bedard boat is very interesting. I like it...very suitable for EC. I don't think weight is a problem at all...it's in the ballpark of a Daysailer weight. Weighted board not only helps stability, but eliminates needing a CB downhaul. It's in the ballpark of a FS or thistle CB weight, lighter than a Lightning. Two aboard for an EC would be a bit cramped but doable. 15' really makes it an ideal size to singlehand. Cat Ketch rig will be very easy for a singlehand to handle. Sail area appears adequate. Pointing upwind will suffer a little, as will light air performance, but it will reach in moderate to fresh breeze very well. Innovative approach to the interior. Looks like the price is for pre-cut panels? Seems reasonable.

Yes, that summary sounds right on to me, it looks like a single handed contender. Paint color is not great with bright work, but the design is thought through. The trunk cabin is blended in well, better than a lot of 15' camp cruisers.

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The Bedard boat is very interesting. I like it...very suitable for EC. I don't think weight is a problem at all...it's in the ballpark of a Daysailer weight. Weighted board not only helps stability, but eliminates needing a CB downhaul. It's in the ballpark of a FS or thistle CB weight, lighter than a Lightning. Two aboard for an EC would be a bit cramped but doable. 15' really makes it an ideal size to singlehand. Cat Ketch rig will be very easy for a singlehand to handle. Sail area appears adequate. Pointing upwind will suffer a little, as will light air performance, but it will reach in moderate to fresh breeze very well. Innovative approach to the interior. Looks like the price is for pre-cut panels? Seems reasonable.

Yes, that summary sounds right on to me, it looks like a single handed contender. Paint color is not great with bright work, but the design is thought through. The trunk cabin is blended in well, better than a lot of 15' camp cruisers.
Looking at it closer, there's only a few small changes I'd suggest. I like the idea of the canvas 'hatch', but it probably needs a small splash rail in front of it. This could also be a mounting point for halyard and downhaul cleats. The transom I'd make higher...both to keep small waves out (keep feet dry!) and to provide for a bit larger rudderhead. They take a pretty big load, especially sailing in shallow water with the rudder kicked up. Needs to be strong. I'd hazard a guess that rudder failure is the most common breakage in EC sailboats. Transom can have flaps to release to let water out when needed. It looks like he's drawn cockpit lockers, which I would eliminate to save weight and make construction easier. It would be a pita to make them watertight anyway. I'm not sure if the bunks extend aft under the side decks, like quarter berths. If there's room, I'd do so. Make a secure sleeping spot for crew on windward side amidships, , or just a handy space to throw gear where it's out of the way. I like that little boat more, the more I look at it.

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Thanks Moon, hadn't seen that pic yet. I like it.

 

So does the EC require you to move the boat a certain distance across sand? Could you roll it over a few foam pool noodles? Baja dinghy wheels?

 

Tom, I just read about the gator's tooth and I see what you mean. Some day, on some boat, I hope I can take a cruiserly shot at it.

 

That is the hard part of the course to me. Florida Bay can be difficult in various ways too. But The Nightmare has the closest thing left to the original challenge, in which boats had to pass through a low and narrow bridge. Then they put a new bridge and it was low but wider. Now it's just not part of the course any more.

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More FB shots.

If it were mine, I'd want a way to make sure stuff dropped in the cockpit won't ever wash out the back. When you're singlehanding over long distance sometimes you just toss stuff down because you don't have time to deal with it right away. Things like litter, water bottles, your pee bucket, your gloves, etc would be pretty easy to lose.

16729163_1785829614776514_2953700123433716603032_1785829624776513_4432701165077616730260_1785829658109843_15639349440084

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Post pics in 25knots & 2metre seas please.

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Post pics in 25knots & 2metre seas please.

With reefed main and mizzen I think it would handle that quite well. There's usually a good number of cat-ketches in the EC...they have a pretty strong finishing record, esp when it gets nasty.

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