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NacramanUK

New Nacra 15

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How much and how soon? Any detailed specs?

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It has similar dagger boards cases to the F20 FCS and the 2014 F16.......they accept straight boards, curved boards and full foiling boards (when produced!).....

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Is there a technical reason for rudder foils to be swept back?

I thought this is only useful when you are moving very, VERY fast?! (near and above the speed of sound)

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swept_wing

 

Maybe to try to keep weeds off. The foils below are 4-5 years(at least) old and were on a Stealth(?) cat. The guy that designed them said they worked very well.

post-30-0-56624600-1410025115_thumb.jpg

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Why does the world need a youth cat... ie one that has no market beyond the youth championships... The SL16 was a non starter in the US (and also supported by Nacra in the states.... I don't think they sold 2 much less the 10 Sl16s in the country... ... Where in the world did the SL16 SELL. (to individual families)..???

 

Related question... What is there about the F16 platform that can't be resolved by smaller sails and spins for the youth market if you want to....

 

The only thing I can think of is that the F16 rule set is too loose for ISAFs tastes.... eg.. the one up versus two up bullshit.....ISAF control is a double edged sword..... yes they stop the deliberate attempts to innovate around the rules.(tonado) .. but they also can't fix what they get wrong in the design (N1;7 rudders)... The build weights of various F16s should not be an issue for competitiveness.... sailors pick their weapon... and you can get a light one if you want.

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Adding another boat for ISAF youth does not make much sense to me. Clearly the boat is using F16 parts from the 2014 F16, which makes me wonder: Why not use the 2014 F16 in a curved board configuration with reduced sailplan and the modified rudders as a one design youth boat? The same boat could use a full sailplan and straight boards to sail in F16 events. That would present the best value and, more importantly for Nacra, the best chance of selling the boats after the championship event.

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Just what the world needs, another bastard boat.

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One design racing is over rated, Nacra is giving everyone an option to find a boat that suits them and they have a history of supporting their boats long after production has ceased so why not try different things

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Why not add another platform to provide the same functionality that the 16 foot platform already provides, while at the same time undercutting the formula classes and making sure the platform is useful in a limited number of events? I don't understand the question.

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Just to clarify, in early July ISAF announced they were inviting manufacturers to design a new youth boat for 2017. Please see the link below for the criteria they detailed for this new boat.

http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/YouthMultihullRFI-[17194].pdf

 

As laid down in the criteria this boat should be available for delivery to MNA's by July 2015.

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The new youth boat cat should have daggerboards, the SL is certainly going then

 

Nice boat - bold move by Nacra [Again]

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One design racing is over rated, Nacra is giving everyone an option to find a boat that suits them and they have a history of supporting their boats long after production has ceased so why not try different things

 

 

Well Rosco certainly has great back up as for a Dutch end....

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One design racing is over rated, Nacra is giving everyone an option to find a boat that suits them and they have a history of supporting their boats long after production has ceased so why not try different things

 

WHOA..... how dare you speak truth to power!

 

Now.... you just have this small problem that involves building and or supporting level rated or handicap racing in narrow bands to the ever smaller number of sailors.

 

My local club would rather have two or three boats in F16 class (single and double handed) and two or three boats in Nacra 20 class rather then collect times and score on handicap.

Hobie World would rather race 3 to 5 Hobie 14s and 3 to 5 Hobie 17s then race handicap.... add in the 3 or 4 Hobie 18s... or just pair the 17s and 18s into a race..

 

Having said that.... junior sailing IS one design.. How does a new platform help the fundamental problem of critical mass of boats and sailors in a region..

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...and they have a history of supporting their boats long after production has ceased so why not try different things

You're kidding ... right? Maybe they did under Jack in Cali, but those days are gone.

Try to find any Nacra 20 (the real one, not the carbon 20) specific parts i.e. mast crane, 1st gen. rudders, etc.

This is just the latest in sped up, planned obsolescence.

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...and they have a history of supporting their boats long after production has ceased so why not try different things

You're kidding ... right? Maybe they did under Jack in Cali, but those days are gone.

Try to find any Nacra 20 (the real one, not the carbon 20) specific parts i.e. mast crane, 1st gen. rudders, etc.

This is just the latest in sped up, planned obsolescence.

By mast crane do you mean mast head?......still available if thats the case

 

 

By 1st generation rudders you are talking about the bottom casting?.......2nd generation bottom casting compatible with with rest of the first generation components

 

 

Please let me know if I have misunderstood you......

 

In terms of the reason for the development of the 15, this has been dictated by ISAF's tender document.....

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Back to the 15.... Reading the request for submissions... It sounds like the only ticket a new Nacra 15 punches uniquely is the Unique Pathway boat.... eg... its a smaller N17.... along with a class rule that can be written and controlled by ISAF.

 

Could not Nacra have taken their F16 platform and put a sail plan on it for the target weight range .... written the class rule for ISAF ...as a strict SMOD and given it a sexy name for ISAF so that they can claim that it is the unique pathway boat. (Curved boards and T foil rudders are NOT cutting edge technology anymore....)

 

How about fixing the N17 platform and putting a new rig on that boat? This works for Laser class ...and any family looking to support their junior sailor up the Olympic pathway. Sure the skiffs use a 29ner to 49ner combo... but the 49nerXX uses the same platform but a smaller rig for the woman Why won't a N17 with a smaller rig work?

 

.

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Looks like a fun boat for the youth. I was surprised to see this posted by the international F16 class though...

 

"Nacra has launched a 15 foot catamaran with gennnaker, curved daggerboards and T-rudders as a bid for the next youth multihull. For experienced catamaran sailors, this boat will be a rocket. For youth sailors emerging from an Optimist, 420 or 29'er this boat poses a dangerous weapon. It took some of the best catamaran sailors around more than a year to handle such a beast. Letting the kids sail it is irresponsible."

 

What's the beef?

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Looks like a fun boat for the youth. I was surprised to see this posted by the international F16 class though...

 

"Nacra has launched a 15 foot catamaran with gennnaker, curved daggerboards and T-rudders as a bid for the next youth multihull. For experienced catamaran sailors, this boat will be a rocket. For youth sailors emerging from an Optimist, 420 or 29'er this boat poses a dangerous weapon. It took some of the best catamaran sailors around more than a year to handle such a beast. Letting the kids sail it is irresponsible."

 

What's the beef?

The beef is getting critical mass of boats anywhere but the EU... lets see.... we have the Hobie Dragoon.... then the Nacra SL16... then an F16.... Now something else again...... Oh... and of course... an occasional use of the Hobie 16 with spin... This is just a silly transfer of money from parents to ISAF and builders...and can't possibly grow the sport of cat racing... . It's tough enough to grow the sport through kids programs...changing youth boats AGAIN makes no sense.

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Back to the 15.... Reading the request for submissions... It sounds like the only ticket a new Nacra 15 punches uniquely is the Unique Pathway boat.... eg... its a smaller N17.... along with a class rule that can be written and controlled by ISAF.

 

Could not Nacra have taken their F16 platform and put a sail plan on it for the target weight range .... written the class rule for ISAF ...as a strict SMOD and given it a sexy name for ISAF so that they can claim that it is the unique pathway boat. (Curved boards and T foil rudders are NOT cutting edge technology anymore....)

 

How about fixing the N17 platform and putting a new rig on that boat? This works for Laser class ...and any family looking to support their junior sailor up the Olympic pathway. Sure the skiffs use a 29ner to 49ner combo... but the 49nerXX uses the same platform but a smaller rig for the woman Why won't a N17 with a smaller rig work?

 

.

Price and therefore build materials are a big consideration (amongst other things) in the detailed remit for a youth boat.....really rules out the 17 with a smaller sail plan....Nacra have also submitted the 16 for evaluation but for the same reasons doesn't tick as many boxes as the 15......

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Looks like a fun boat for the youth. I was surprised to see this posted by the international F16 class though...

 

"Nacra has launched a 15 foot catamaran with gennnaker, curved daggerboards and T-rudders as a bid for the next youth multihull. For experienced catamaran sailors, this boat will be a rocket. For youth sailors emerging from an Optimist, 420 or 29'er this boat poses a dangerous weapon. It took some of the best catamaran sailors around more than a year to handle such a beast. Letting the kids sail it is irresponsible."

 

What's the beef?

The beef is getting critical mass of boats anywhere but the EU... lets see.... we have the Hobie Dragoon.... then the Nacra SL16... then an F16.... Now something else again...... Oh... and of course... an occasional use of the Hobie 16 with spin... This is just a silly transfer of money from parents to ISAF and builders...and can't possibly grow the sport of cat racing... . It's tough enough to grow the sport through kids programs...changing youth boats AGAIN makes no sense.

So making false statements and accusing Nacra of selling "dangerous weapons" to kids is meant to grow youth sailing in multihulls? Can you explain that please?

 

And what's a junior sailor going to prefer, an outdated F16 or semi foiling Nacra15? Do you want to develop youth sailors or hold them back on slower and older boats. Imagine if you were 16 years old and could campaign on a smaller version of what you see your sailing hero's on. Get over yourself because it's not about the money. Bashing the development of youth sailing boats is a sad and slippery slope. In the US, old yacht club farts decided the 29er was too radical and investing into the FJ and club 420 was the right choice for junior sailors across America. Well the rest of the world passed us by and everyone wonders why there was only one American on the final Oracle race team last year.

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Looks like a fun boat for the youth. I was surprised to see this posted by the international F16 class though...

 

"Nacra has launched a 15 foot catamaran with gennnaker, curved daggerboards and T-rudders as a bid for the next youth multihull. For experienced catamaran sailors, this boat will be a rocket. For youth sailors emerging from an Optimist, 420 or 29'er this boat poses a dangerous weapon. It took some of the best catamaran sailors around more than a year to handle such a beast. Letting the kids sail it is irresponsible."

 

What's the beef?

The beef is getting critical mass of boats anywhere but the EU... lets see.... we have the Hobie Dragoon.... then the Nacra SL16... then an F16.... Now something else again...... Oh... and of course... an occasional use of the Hobie 16 with spin... This is just a silly transfer of money from parents to ISAF and builders...and can't possibly grow the sport of cat racing... . It's tough enough to grow the sport through kids programs...changing youth boats AGAIN makes no sense.

So making false statements and accusing Nacra of selling "dangerous weapons" to kids is meant to grow youth sailing in multihulls? Can you explain that please?

 

And what's a junior sailor going to prefer, an outdated F16 or semi foiling Nacra15? Do you want to develop youth sailors or hold them back on slower and older boats. Imagine if you were 16 years old and could campaign on a smaller version of what you see your sailing hero's on. Get over yourself because it's not about the money. Bashing the development of youth sailing boats is a sad and slippery slope. In the US, old yacht club farts decided the 29er was too radical and investing into the FJ and club 420 was the right choice for junior sailors across America. Well the rest of the world passed us by and everyone wonders why there was only one American on the final Oracle race team last year.

 

Dangerous weapons??? I though that was part of Nacra's marketing hype. Not a critique of the boat. (Not my quote)

 

Um....in my experience... KIds go where the other kids are... they are simply NOT going to go out and get the only Nacra 15 in their region and go out looking for open handicap races to compete against the adults in.... they simply don't... I know of one Club that purchased 7 or 8 29ners... and then dumped them.... not enough kids demand. No other clubs to race against... So... it is NOT about the boat.... it is ALL about critical mass... followed by visibility and then practicality.

 

FYI.... In the USA... the Hobie 16 class has more juniors racing the boat (junior teams) then the F16 class..... It's not about the boat... it's about critical mass... then practicality (price and proximity)

 

RE.... Am Cup teams.... .... we are talking juniors here.... there is a lifetime of experience needed between where your start and the ultimate levels you reach.

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As far as youths not being competent; utter bs.

There was a 13 year old f16 world champ. Back when i was a grommet, my friend was the National Tornado champ at age 13 or so. I would generally finish among the top adults as a teenager as well.

Personally i am liking the trend away from the spi and on to foils. The foils seem to eliminate the need for spi in all but the very light stuff. The brutish more power solution being rather inelegant in comparison. Admittedly a theoretical position since i don't have a foiling cat or a spi rigged cat.

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I didn't realise Nacra have support problems in some places in Europe, in Aus we have a Nacra builder, supplier who sails them and he's hell bent on keeping people sailing. As for the youth side reading what ISAF want it looks like Nacra delivered, the F16 was always designed heavy in the constitution so that anyone could build one but now ISAF seem to have gone full circle back to light boats. It's almost like the Taipan 4.9 with spin would fit most of the criteria. I think it's great that these new exciting boats have come out for juniors, IMO unless the kids get hooked on the racing most of the kids drift away due to boredom, at a club level personal handicaps are used so it doesn't matter what boat their on, one design doesn't work with kids as there is always a parent that can pay for a new main etc

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Looks like a fun boat for the youth. I was surprised to see this posted by the international F16 class though...

 

"Nacra has launched a 15 foot catamaran with gennnaker, curved daggerboards and T-rudders as a bid for the next youth multihull. For experienced catamaran sailors, this boat will be a rocket. For youth sailors emerging from an Optimist, 420 or 29'er this boat poses a dangerous weapon. It took some of the best catamaran sailors around more than a year to handle such a beast. Letting the kids sail it is irresponsible."

 

What's the beef?

Crass!

 

Where was that published?

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...and they have a history of supporting their boats long after production has ceased so why not try different things

You're kidding ... right? Maybe they did under Jack in Cali, but those days are gone.

Try to find any Nacra 20 (the real one, not the carbon 20) specific parts i.e. mast crane, 1st gen. rudders, etc.

This is just the latest in sped up, planned obsolescence.

By mast crane do you mean mast head?......still available if thats the case

 

 

By 1st generation rudders you are talking about the bottom casting?.......2nd generation bottom casting compatible with with rest of the first generation components

 

 

Please let me know if I have misunderstood you......

 

In terms of the reason for the development of the 15, this has been dictated by ISAF's tender document.....

Masthead caps for the CARBON Inter 20/ Nacra 20 masts (not the F20C/FCS) are no longer available stateside. Getting Nacra custom parts (masts, hulls, rudders, daggerboards) and even Performance Sails has been slow/difficult this summer with the changes at Nacra U.S...

 

1st generation rudder blades are those originally supplied with the Inter 20. Then they went to the Gen2 blade which was kind of fugly looking and fatter then finally we have the Gen3 blades that shipped with the latest Nacra 20's and 1st gen Infusion, retaining most of the performance of the Gen 1 rudder blade with much more control on the start line and around the top mark. Now the latest blades shipping with the 2011 and newer Mk. 2 Infusion, F20C/FCS, are supposedly better, they are lighter and the trailing edge is much stronger/more dent resistant, but I have experienced and seen the same failure mode on the original Gen3 rudder blades (ones without the carbon) and the new Gen3 blades (ones with the carbon). Trouble is the Gen1 blade is a perfectly fine rudder blade, many distance racers perfer them as they are a little faster in a straight line, but you can't get them so you are forced to buy 2 Gen3 blades at $510 USD each.

 

Back to the Nacra 15...is the rig a chopped down Nacra F16 rig? I'm with Tcatman that the Nacra 17 with a smaller rig makes a lot more sense to me. If you're telling me having two sets of molds and two different layup schedules is cheaper than simply producing more N17 carbon hulls that have a longer competitive life, your builder is lying to you!

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I know that, prior to the 2014 model changes, owners were putting Gen1 rudders on the Nacra F16. I believe my current 2014 F16 rudders are very, very similar to the Gen1 N20 rudders from my old N20.

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...and they have a history of supporting their boats long after production has ceased so why not try different things

You're kidding ... right? Maybe they did under Jack in Cali, but those days are gone.

Try to find any Nacra 20 (the real one, not the carbon 20) specific parts i.e. mast crane, 1st gen. rudders, etc.

This is just the latest in sped up, planned obsolescence.

By mast crane do you mean mast head?......still available if thats the case

 

 

By 1st generation rudders you are talking about the bottom casting?.......2nd generation bottom casting compatible with with rest of the first generation components

 

 

Please let me know if I have misunderstood you......

 

In terms of the reason for the development of the 15, this has been dictated by ISAF's tender document.....

Masthead caps for the CARBON Inter 20/ Nacra 20 masts (not the F20C/FCS) are no longer available stateside. Getting Nacra custom parts (masts, hulls, rudders, daggerboards) and even Performance Sails has been slow/difficult this summer with the changes at Nacra U.S...

 

1st generation rudder blades are those originally supplied with the Inter 20. Then they went to the Gen2 blade which was kind of fugly looking and fatter then finally we have the Gen3 blades that shipped with the latest Nacra 20's and 1st gen Infusion, retaining most of the performance of the Gen 1 rudder blade with much more control on the start line and around the top mark. Now the latest blades shipping with the 2011 and newer Mk. 2 Infusion, F20C/FCS, are supposedly better, they are lighter and the trailing edge is much stronger/more dent resistant, but I have experienced and seen the same failure mode on the original Gen3 rudder blades (ones without the carbon) and the new Gen3 blades (ones with the carbon). Trouble is the Gen1 blade is a perfectly fine rudder blade, many distance racers perfer them as they are a little faster in a straight line, but you can't get them so you are forced to buy 2 Gen3 blades at $510 USD each.

 

Back to the Nacra 15...is the rig a chopped down Nacra F16 rig? I'm with Tcatman that the Nacra 17 with a smaller rig makes a lot more sense to me. If you're telling me having two sets of molds and two different layup schedules is cheaper than simply producing more N17 carbon hulls that have a longer competitive life, your builder is lying to you!

Hi Sam,

I have checked with Holland this morning and although they are currently out of stock of the Inter 20/N20 One Design mast head, they are due to have fresh stock arriving soon. With respect to Nacra custom parts which parts are a problem? I checked with the Performance Sails and although earlier in the year there was around a 4 week delay from order to shipping date for non stock sails including older and out of production models due to the sail demand from the 17 fleet this is now down to around 2 weeks.

 

With respect to rudders I am still awaiting information from Holland and the previous UK Nacra importer (he ran the UK business through the production life of the Inter 20/N20 One Design) as to the changes that went on (if any) to the rudder profile and section during the production life of these boats. As soon as I have this information I will let you know including whether it is still possible to get these blades. With respect to the Infusion/F20 C rudder blades I spoke to the technical manager in Holland today and he stated that there has been no change in the rudder blade profile and section since the very first Infusion were shipped. There has been some changes in structure during this period most notably the carbon trailing edge (introduced when the F20 C was first shipped) and the revised lay up when the rev 3 blades were introduced on the 17. The same blades are used on the Infusion, F20 C and the 17. The majority of the 2012 and 2013 F16's were shipped with blades with the same profile and section as the 500 but with a different lay up although a few were shipped with Infusion/F20 C/17 blades. For 2014 the F16 has been shipped with an all new F16 specific blade.

 

With respect to the Nacra 15, please remember that Nacra has submitted both this new 15 and the F16 for evaluation as the new ISAF youth worlds catamaran. The 15 does use the same (new/revised for 2014) ali mast as the F16. I would agree that creating new molds/moulds is clearly not as economical as using an existing one, but given the criteria detailed in the outline tender document (I don't know if there is a more detailed supporting tender document) the boat has not only got to fit the remit of an ISAF youth worlds boat but also a youth "pathway" cat. As such there has to be consideration in its specification for the ranges of weights, physical stature, experience and skill of those who may sail it. So the boat needs to be adaptable in terms of possible sail plans, boards used (the cases will accept both curved and straight foils), etc to full fill the "pathway" criteria as well as being optimised in terms of length (despite there being no set length and beam parameters in the outline tender document) for the range of youth in terms of height, weight and strength who may sail it. In terms of my comments about build costs, it is in respect to the cost to the customer (read parents!) and given the fact the 15 will be built in glassfibre vinylester resin sandwich it makes it considerably cheaper than the F16 . I hope this answer you questions but please let me know if you have any more.

 

Regards,

Nacraman

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Correction.......

".........The 15 does use the same (new/revised for 2014) ali mast as the F16......."

 

 

Should read

".........The 15 does use the same (new/revised for 2014) ali mast SECTION as the F16......."

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Thanks Nacraman for the help.

 

Lots of the custom Nacra parts are an issue currently stateside...hopefully they are resolving that...rudders, daggerboards, mast sections, replacement hulls. Smaller items like the jib track and others are out of stock with no word on lead time.

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Thanks Nacraman for the help.

 

Lots of the custom Nacra parts are an issue currently stateside...hopefully they are resolving that...rudders, daggerboards, mast sections, replacement hulls. Smaller items like the jib track and others are out of stock with no word on lead time.

As you know Sam we are always more than happy to help sort a solution to a problem.......generally we can get an answer within 24 hours....

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Yep, really appreciate the help!

 

What's the verdict from the water on the N15?

It has been taken to the ISAF worlds in Santander and will be trialled tomorrow by many people......so some independent verdicts tomorrow........

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Looks like a cool boat up close. A bit more simplified in some ways then the 17's. The horizontals on the rudders look just big enough to provide more pitch control but I reckon you won't get all that much major lift out of them. The dutch boys where just rigging up for an evening sail while everyone was heading to the opening ceremonies so no comment yet on the performance but it has all the potential to go fast I reckon..

post-14244-0-77243400-1410461261_thumb.jpg

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Has NACRA looked at the economic viability of their proposal?

Is ISAF demanding too much from the manufacturer for their Youth Boat?

 

ISAF require the manufacturer to provide the boats each year for the Youth Worlds... They also expect the manufacturer to cover the cost of freight to and from the venue, and then supply a support team to keep the boats on the water for the duration of the titles. A very expensive exercise for any manufacturer.

 

Will the sales figures of the new NACRA 15 be able to support such a cost?

Will most countries train & select their youth sailors using another platform like they are currently doing?

 

According to ISAF's records only 93 29er's were sold last year. These figures surely are not sufficient to be able to cover the added cost of supplying the boats for the Youth Worlds.

 

VIPER have said NO to ISAF. This surely was not an easy decision.... The full story can be found on the Goodall Design Website http://www.goodalldesign.com.au/Catamaran/index.php/about-us/news/85-viper-says-no-to-isaf

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Looks fun...maybe a little underpowered though. Granted it was light. Any chanced of a less expensive aluminum rigged, curved board (no $8K FCS kit) t-foil rudder F20C coming to market? What about the t-foil upgrades to existing platforms (F20C and N17)?

 

What is Nacra's thought on a full flying platform for the club racer and the economic viability from a build standpoint?

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Plus 100! The brief was for youth, in post 23 one class was hand wringing about the danger this boat poses. I understand why other manufacturers have pulled out but I love that Nacra have seen fit to produce exciting boats for youth and have no doubt they have a strategy to keep those youth on Nacra's as they get older

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Looks fun...maybe a little underpowered though. Granted it was light. Any chanced of a less expensive aluminum rigged, curved board (no $8K FCS kit) t-foil rudder F20C coming to market? What about the t-foil upgrades to existing platforms (F20C and N17)?

 

What is Nacra's thought on a full flying platform for the club racer and the economic viability from a build standpoint?

Hi Sam

 

Yes it was light and heavy F18/F20 team sailing it.......i do think it is unlikely that they will retail an ali mast version of the F20 C, but there will be a just T foil rudder upgrade kit available to upgrade the F20 C (rather than a full FCS kit)........we have to wait ISAF's word on T foil upgrade for the 17 as all development of it is decided/dictated by them!......with regards full foiling smaller Nacra's, no official word but what I can say is the F16 and the 15 (if put into full production!) have the same style of dagger board cases as the F20 FCS, so I will leave you to draw your own conclusions!!!......

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any feedback from Santander on the Nacra15?

 

Took it out for a spin after the last day of racing. It was a bit light and choppy and I was sailing with another fella but was surprised how quickly it would still power up. Not all that different from the 17. Just smaller and more simplified. I like the trunk set-up better on the 15 though. My only real concern is the rudder horizontals. The shape is not quite right for lifting and of course they are much too small for the weight of the boat and crew. It provided some definite fore/aft stability at speed but you could also feel the drag in the helm. I would recommend either a whole new set-up and design or just keep the standard rudders. I mean, if everything else stayed the same, I bet you would actually see a performance increase by going back to the standard rudders. Well anyways it looks like I'll head out to Holland soon and do some more development testing with them.

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I figured the boat would be under powered relative to the 17 etc. at same crew weight, it just looked more underpowered than I expected. Sounds like IanA had the opposite experience and that is a good thing!

 

T-foil rudders: these seem to work in the A but are a different design from what is shown here. Can Nacra explain the route they choose and how much development they have left to refine this?

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I figured the boat would be under powered relative to the 17 etc. at same crew weight, it just looked more underpowered than I expected. Sounds like IanA had the opposite experience and that is a good thing!

 

T-foil rudders: these seem to work in the A but are a different design from what is shown here. Can Nacra explain the route they choose and how much development they have left to refine this?

I should elaborate then that the 15 is clearly less powerful then the 17 but that two guys heavier then your average Olympic team were able to get it going surprisingly well in light and lumpy conditions. It will be a great boat for the younger and lighter junior sailors no doubt.

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I really like this boat. I owned a Nacra 5.2 for many years a while back and sailed it in Santa Cruz, mostly with a crew. The 5.2 was heavy (always doubted my ability to right it solo) and a handful to sail solo. Leaving the jib off did make it simpler, except for if you wanted to come about, which the jib-less 5.2 resisted.

So, as a lighter but more modern Nacra for single-handing this is an intriguing boat. I realize that the Nacra F16 is designed to be raced as a single-handed boat alongside the crewed ones, but again without the jib. (And I notice that there seem to be few single-handers among the F16 competitors these days, so maybe that part of the original design hasn't really taken off).

There is a bit of hole in the beach cat scene right now of a high-performance singlehand cat. Of course there are still a lot of Hobie 17s and a few FX-Ones out there, but nothing built new I can think of. Except A-class boats, which are nice, albeit quite exotic and again cat rigged.

But the 15 strikes me as a much more interesting and fun boat to sail than any uni-rigged cat. Some of the things l like compared to the F-16 or older 17 foot unis are:

  • Light weight. Boat is only about 310 lbs, 10lbs less than a Hobie 16 and about 100lbs less than the Nacra 5.2 of my past
  • Less expensive. It's listed for $15,000 vs. $20,000 for the Nacra 16.
  • designed for a light crew of juniors -- at 230lbs I'm probably the size of a lot of junior crews
  • modern design hulls and sail plan - with effort put into simplification (good for single-handing)
  • not overpowered with jib for single handing, not a purpose built or rigged as an uni.
  • foiling daggerboards and rudders are promised
  • some hope of it catching on due to use in youth sailing

​I wondered what others think about this idea.
Of course it would be fantastic if someone has had a chance to sail one single handed and could post a review or write up.

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Um the 'hole' for high performance single handed cats is filled. The A-Class owns that segment. Any boat that wants to enter it need to put forth a pretty compelling argument why it is better than the A or it will just get laughed at.

 

And tha NACRA 15 at 310lbs is still about 160 pounds heavier than an A. That's a huge difference in weight trying to move it around by yourself.

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Good points StumbleNola. THANKS for responding.

Yes, the A-Cat is awesome and is the ultimate high performance singlehanded beach cat. For sure.

What I'm not as sure is if they are as rugged as a production boat designed for youth sailing, like this Nacra. With my old 5.2 I stored it and sailed it off the beach in Santa Cruz though. I'm also not sure that the A-Cat is the best boat for someone my size either. I know I've read on some of the A-Cat forums that they are optimum for people a bit lighter. Also, it's an uni-rig and there is something fun about the boats with chutes and jibs. I may look into A-cat's further though. I checked the class association web site a while ago and there were some 15 year old ones going for about $6,000.

One nice thing is that the really nice dingy shop near me in Portland has just started selling Nacras. That got me thinking about it. Seems like A-cats are sort of one offs or limited production runs and not something you can see or sail before buying, unless you happen to be where there is a fleet. I don't think there are any here in Portland area.

Any idea who the main manufacturers are at this time?

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Ricwoz,

 

There are 4 at Vancouver Lake Sailing Club, another in Eugene, three up in Seattle, and a foiling DNA in Bend. There are currently 2 for sale in the area. My boat is currently in Newport RI waiting for the Nationals next week.

 

If you like we can chat about these and other options. Lots of misconceptions about high performance boats.

 

Ken Marshack.

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No they aren't going to be as durable as an overweight boat built to be slammed into things. But they are far from fragile, so long as you don't abuse it the boats are fine. Slam it into a sea wall and you will be fixing it, sail the piss out of it any you are fine.

 

As for the spinnaker... Keep in mind that the A-Cat has roughly the same SA/d as the Nacra 15 does down wind.

A-cat - 150lbs : 150sq foot

Nacra 15 - 310lbs : 324sq foot

 

Upwind the A is almost double

A-Cat - 150lbs : 150sq foot

Nacra 15 - 310lbs : 182 sq foot

 

 

As for crew weight... 2015 worlds was won by Glen Ashby (all bullets) who weighs about 175lbs. Mishka who won this year (all bullets) I think is about 220lbs. That's a pretty big delta.

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Thanks Kshack. The Vancouver Lake Sailing Club is pretty close to my place, I'll try to stop by there sometime.
Good luck at the Nationals. That sounds exciting.

And thanks again StumbleNola for the clarifications.
I went to the DNA web site and they have some nice pictures of their boats. The are extremely sexy looking beasts. Any idea what the go for new?

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New foiler F1 around 35K delivered. Explorder for around 8K less.

Used DNA floater for around 13K. Several boats listed at the US A Cat website, including 1 year old Exploders. Couple floaters (curved and stright bords) local to you. (I may be returning to the NW for a short while and could bring back a boat from Nats)

Another consideration would be a F16 singlehanded. National singlehanded champ is here inthe NW (I came in 2nd).

The club is locked most of the time. Call if you want information. 5zero3 807-626four.

 

Ken

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Unless you are already a good cat sailer I wouldn't go with a foiler off the bat. Buy a good C board boat and figure the damn thing out first. I have been trying to get the boat up to speed for the last year (my first cat btw) and every time I start to figure something out I find another gear. I am 220lbs and am still depowering the boat by 10kn of wind, adding foiling to the mix at the same time I think is a recipe for frustration.

 

The newer C board DNA's are in the $13k range, but if you can find one, a decent C board exploder, Evo, etc boat should be available for 8-10k. They are just getting hard to find. The class keeps growing and new people are buying up these entry level boats quickly. I actually think I could sell mine for a profit right now, just because of the demand for entry level C board boats. It's a great problem for the class to have really, there are so many new people to the class the entry level boats have been getting snatched up quickly, and the

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I own a 15 and can confirm it is a very versitile platform. Both with 2 adolts approx 180 kg/400 lbs and with 2 kids (110/240) or as one up 90 kg/200 lbs. Offcourse depending wind. The board provide really nice lift and the boat can be pushed downwind really hard. Lay out is simular to 16/17/18 Nacra’s so esy and well though off.

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Has someone mentioned the price for the 15?

I did in my list of bullet points above, about why I thought it might make a fun single-hander.

  • Less expensive. It's listed for $15,000 vs. $20,000 for the Nacra 16.

And, I misstated the price of the NACRA 16: It's actually $21,000.

To me that seems like a pretty great deal, 3/4 the cost of the Nacra 16 and very similar design.

 

I was perhaps rightly castigated for saying there is a hole in the current production cat line up of a purpose built single-hander because there are a number of A-cats, which are extremely high performance single-handers.

 

However the price difference is pretty stark: "New foiler F1 around $35K delivered. Exploder for around 8K less. (so $27K)

 

At $15K the Nacra 15 is competitive with the Weta Trimaran, which my local dealer is selling quite a few of.

(They don't sell any A-cat models).

 

I got my price info from their web site, here are some links that might be of interest:

https://www.westcoastsailing.net/default/boats/nacra/nacra-15.html NACRA 15: $14,990.

https://www.westcoastsailing.net/default/boats/nacra/nacra-16.html NACRA 16: $21,000.

https://www.westcoastsailing.net/default/boats/nacra/nacra-17.html NACRA 17: $26,000.

https://www.westcoastsailing.net/default/boats/nacra/nacra-18.html NACRA 18: $23,000.

https://www.westcoastsailing.net/default/boats/nacra/nacra-20.html NACRA 20: $34,500 (the full carbon FCS foiler)

 

They also have the Hobie Miracle in the F18 category:

https://www.westcoastsailing.net/default/boats/hobie/wild-cat/hobie-wild-cat.html Wildcat 18: $21,999.

 

 

 

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Problem with the 15 is it is a youth boat and there is no active racing. Not much local handycap racing close to you. Best bet is F18, F16 (can race with F18) A Cat or the usual Hobie boats. Check out the youth event in Clearwater in October if you want to race one. Boats supplied!

Used 16 would be a better singlehanded fit for you, or used A Cat.

Most people do not spend that kind of money for a boat they can not race.

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Thanks again Kshack, I very much appreciate your detailed responses, and they make a lot of sense.

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Hi all,

 

It concerns me when Nacra does not show the weight.

 

It may be a brick to move around the beach.

 

Cheers,

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In another topic in this "Multihull Anarchy" section of the Forums I've posted the draft of a proposed article on NACRA for Wikipedia that I've been working on.

I looked at the Hobie page and decided to make it simple enough that I could gather the data on the 20-30 boats I figured I'd end up with, so picked length, beam and weight.

What I've discovered is that weight numbers are very hard to come by for almost all these boats, so much so that I may delete the column and replace it with something else like sail area or mast height. (Though those might be hard to get too).

Anyway, the NACRA 15 is 310 lbs, which I found on a site where the boat was reviewed along with the competitors as part of the ISAF selection process (which it won). That's about the same as the Hobie 16 (weight usually given as 320 lbs).

I guess whether you consider that heavy or not depends on perspective. The A Cat guys think it's an overweight, overbuilt barge. Having spent some time on the original big 21 footers like the NACRA 6.0 and similar Hobie it seems pretty reasonable.

Carbon fiber changes what's possible now from what we are accustomed to, but it comes at a high price.

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Wow!!!! 310 lbs for a modern 15 ft boat. I guess we are going backwards on material sciences. Or is it made out of lead?

 

Anyway, I do not know your age, however if you are close to mine, you may want to keep your Back Doctor on speed dial. :-)

 

Cheers,

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Please note Kshack and Sam99c are A-cat sailors like me. We sort of like high performance modern boats built to modern designs and using modern materials. My back really likes my 175 pound sailboat these days. My history of dragging a 310 to 440 pound sailboat thru sand even on good beach wheels are pretty much over, an onorous task even 40 years ago. Also my wife/excellent crew is having back problems now...am I to blame? Yet we did have 200 boats at regatta many times back in the aluminum and fiberglass days, and we loved it.

 

We have a few young people sailing A-cats now, and a number of women too. Most of our starter boats from 2000 - 07 are cheap, still suitable and perfectly good, despite claimed fragility. Hey- I was present when an A-cat was run full speed into a cement wall by a newbie at Ben Hall's place during the 1st Admiral's Cup. I watched an enthusiastic bunch of sailors (fueled by Mudslides) repair both bows on the beach, and it was sailed the next day. I love these superb little boats that climb to weather like an angel.

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Fair comments Vaplaya and dacarls, Nacra have a great little high performance boat that at VYC 69.5 in Aus is not far off the handicap for A's, it has to be sturdy to handle foiling and kids and that unfortunately means weight but on the upside if you have the Olympics in your sights the A won't get you there but the Nacra 15 is perfect as a feed in boat, 21 x Nacra 15's sold into Aus in the last few months means we're going to see some fast kids

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Fair comments Vaplaya and dacarls, Nacra have a great little high performance boat that at VYC 69.5 in Aus is not far off the handicap for A's, it has to be sturdy to handle foiling and kids and that unfortunately means weight but on the upside if you have the Olympics in your sights the A won't get you there but the Nacra 15 is perfect as a feed in boat, 21 x Nacra 15's sold into Aus in the last few months means we're going to see some fast kids

On the contrary Madabout, the evidence is many Olympic aspirants are using the A Cat to build their skills. In another thread it is mentioned that three North and Central American countries have sailors getting A Cats to develop their foiling skills towards the next Olympics.

Three out of the four contenders for the AUS Rio Multihull spot did A Cat campaigns as part of their lead up. The AUS multihull coach for Rio is a long term successful A Cat sailor on the world stage and just finished a five year term as IACA President.

That number for a yardstick on the Nacra 15 will tough for youth teams to sail to. A heavy short boat needing to beat a 5.8 around the course by 2.5 minutes in the 100.

All good getting a trainer like the Nacra up and running but the stretch to Olympic competition is huge. That is where people seem to be using the foiling A Cat with its high performance and world wide intense competition to get to the next level. BTW one of the Rio dinghy sailors has just bought a foiling A as the next step.

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On the contrary Madabout, the evidence is many Olympic aspirants are using the A Cat to build their skills. In another thread it is mentioned that three North and Central American countries have sailors getting A Cats to develop their foiling skills towards the next Olympics.

Three out of the four contenders for the AUS Rio Multihull spot did A Cat campaigns as part of their lead up. The AUS multihull coach for Rio is a long term successful A Cat sailor on the world stage and just finished a five year term as IACA President.

That number for a yardstick on the Nacra 15 will tough for youth teams to sail to. A heavy short boat needing to beat a 5.8 around the course by 2.5 minutes in the 100.

All good getting a trainer like the Nacra up and running but the stretch to Olympic competition is huge. That is where people seem to be using the foiling A Cat with its high performance and world wide intense competition to get to the next level. BTW one of the Rio dinghy sailors has just bought a foiling A as the next step.

And right now, Bora Gulari (who recently represented the US in the Nacra 17's at Rio) is competing in his 1st A-Cat regatta (the North Americans at Newport, RI)

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310 lbs is approaching the weight of a 20' tornado which is a class from the 60's. Today's A cats are lighter still.

The nacra site says the 17 is a carbon fiber epoxy boat, but i read on this forum that they are poorly constructed and rather heavy.

It was not possible for me to find out where the nacras are built, but i was once chastised for speculating that Asia is their construction land.

Where do these nacra cats get manufactured?

 

The whole idea that children need their own special boat is questionable in my mind. Few families have that kind of money. My path was crewing with a large skipper that needed a light crew>sailing a H14 with crew to make weight>sailing a 14 with weights>etc. As a young teenager i was mixing it up at the front with the adults. Youths can totally kick butt against adults who have to go to work and have all sorts of responsibilities. I had a friend that a couple years younger than me kicking butt in the tornados at the time.

Seems like the youth are kept away from the adult racing to protect the adults from getting beaten by children.

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On the contrary Madabout, the evidence is many Olympic aspirants are using the A Cat to build their skills. In another thread it is mentioned that three North and Central American countries have sailors getting A Cats to develop their foiling skills towards the next Olympics.Three out of the four contenders for the AUS Rio Multihull spot did A Cat campaigns as part of their lead up. The AUS multihull coach for Rio is a long term successful A Cat sailor on the world stage and just finished a five year term as IACA President.That number for a yardstick on the Nacra 15 will tough for youth teams to sail to. A heavy short boat needing to beat a 5.8 around the course by 2.5 minutes in the 100.All good getting a trainer like the Nacra up and running but the stretch to Olympic competition is huge. That is where people seem to be using the foiling A Cat with its high performance and world wide intense competition to get to the next level. BTW one of the Rio dinghy sailors has just bought a foiling A as the next step.

And right now, Bora Gulari (who recently represented the US in the Nacra 17's at Rio) is competing in his 1st A-Cat regatta (the North Americans at Newport, RI)

Not just competing, he is sitting at third I think so far.

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Contrary

 

 

 

On the contrary Madabout, the evidence is many Olympic aspirants are using the A Cat to build their skills. In another thread it is mentioned that three North and Central American countries have sailors getting A Cats to develop their foiling skills towards the next Olympics.Three out of the four contenders for the AUS Rio Multihull spot did A Cat campaigns as part of their lead up. The AUS multihull coach for Rio is a long term successful A Cat sailor on the world stage and just finished a five year term as IACA President.That number for a yardstick on the Nacra 15 will tough for youth teams to sail to. A heavy short boat needing to beat a 5.8 around the course by 2.5 minutes in the 100.All good getting a trainer like the Nacra up and running but the stretch to Olympic competition is huge. That is where people seem to be using the foiling A Cat with its high performance and world wide intense competition to get to the next level. BTW one of the Rio dinghy sailors has just bought a foiling A as the next step.

And right now, Bora Gulari (who recently represented the US in the Nacra 17's at Rio) is competing in his 1st A-Cat regatta (the North Americans at Newport, RI)

Not just competing, he is sitting at third I think so far.

 

 

There is a big difference between adult crews looking to get time on the water against good competition and youths looking to get in at the ground level. If you have teenage kids wanting to one day go to the Olympics and sail cats, your best bet is to follow the path successfully tread by Jason and Lisa. This means qualifying for and then competing (or ideally winning) at the youth worlds. Jason comes from an Australian Hobie dynasty and when they did it the 16 was the tool of choice. For the foreseeable future the Nacra 15 will be the boat being used at this event so cashed up parents with motivated kids will be investing in that direction.

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Contrary

 

 

 

On the contrary Madabout, the evidence is many Olympic aspirants are using the A Cat to build their skills. In another thread it is mentioned that three North and Central American countries have sailors getting A Cats to develop their foiling skills towards the next Olympics.Three out of the four contenders for the AUS Rio Multihull spot did A Cat campaigns as part of their lead up. The AUS multihull coach for Rio is a long term successful A Cat sailor on the world stage and just finished a five year term as IACA President.That number for a yardstick on the Nacra 15 will tough for youth teams to sail to. A heavy short boat needing to beat a 5.8 around the course by 2.5 minutes in the 100.All good getting a trainer like the Nacra up and running but the stretch to Olympic competition is huge. That is where people seem to be using the foiling A Cat with its high performance and world wide intense competition to get to the next level. BTW one of the Rio dinghy sailors has just bought a foiling A as the next step.

And right now, Bora Gulari (who recently represented the US in the Nacra 17's at Rio) is competing in his 1st A-Cat regatta (the North Americans at Newport, RI)
Not just competing, he is sitting at third I think so far.

There is a big difference between adult crews looking to get time on the water against good competition and youths looking to get in at the ground level. If you have teenage kids wanting to one day go to the Olympics and sail cats, your best bet is to follow the path successfully tread by Jason and Lisa. This means qualifying for and then competing (or ideally winning) at the youth worlds. Jason comes from an Australian Hobie dynasty and when they did it the 16 was the tool of choice. For the foreseeable future the Nacra 15 will be the boat being used at this event so cashed up parents with motivated kids will be investing in that direction.

Yes I made that point that the junior trainer is all good to get to a certain point but there is still a gap to get to Olympic level. That's where people are using A Cats to bridge the gap. And it's exactly what Jason did as well as using an A Cat guru as mentor.

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" If you have teenage kids wanting to one day go to the Olympics and sail cats, your best bet is to follow the path successfully tread by Jason and Lisa."

 

How many kids go sailing with Olympic medal as THEIR goal?. We need a bit more generalized reason... How about fun, challenging and competition.

 

"Jason comes from an Australian Hobie dynasty and when they did it the 16 was the tool of choice"

I think this point is crucial... take advantage of the tools at hand.... the skills will transfer... If we are dependent on cashed up parents...or dynasty's.... the next generation will be quite small. Obviously, starting and mastering a Hobie 16 was well worth the training time and led to a medal for Jason.

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This thread is specifically about the official world youth trainer, so of course we're going to be talking about kids with Olympic dreams. No-one is saying its the only entry option for kids, just that it is a logical one. A 5 year old F16 is going to be almost as good a trainer as the Nacra 15, but it'll mean learning outside the system. In Australia at least there are much more opportunities if you can stay within main stream system.

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This thread is specifically about the official world youth trainer, so of course we're going to be talking about kids with Olympic dreams. No-one is saying its the only entry option for kids, just that it is a logical one. A 5 year old F16 is going to be almost as good a trainer as the Nacra 15, but it'll mean learning outside the system. In Australia at least there are much more opportunities if you can stay within main stream system.

I hope you are right Scarecrow. The "system" for multihulls has been a dogs breakfast for the last few years. Lots of flip flopping on type of boat and little real support for clubs from YA. Even now it doesn't look good. The Qld website lists the Hobie 16 as preferred class. The YV site defers to the YA site and talks about an "open multihull " single regatta to be held in NSW! Pretty vague pathway. Hope the Nacra starts getting some support by our yachting organisation if it is to be the weapon of choice for the cashed up parents.

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I was talking kids, some of the Nacra 15s recently purchased for ex Opti kids and you probably know how much it costs to campaign an Opti, the A class is a great boat but would you turn an 9yo loose on one,how would they learn to use spin and jib? Why should sailing kids not have the same dream as athletics kids about going to the Olympics. If some adults are jaded by the Olympics that's fine but that doesn't have to limit the experience available to kids with the dream

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When the Youth AC was first announced, I worked for a couple of weeks with Tom (sailingkid) to see if we could either build an entrant or at least get him considered for any team that was put together. Two things quickly became clear. 1. ACEA couldn't organise is fuck in a brothel which made approaching sponsors etc basically impossible as we couldn't even confirm where and when the various stages of the event would go ahead. 2. There are two distinct groups of competitive youth sailors in Australia. One group are members of big clubs and have been involved in youth regattas etc. They sail Lasers, 29ers and until recently Hobie 16s or for a couple of weeks there Vipers. The other group sail just as well but on cherubs, skiffs, paper tigers, etc, etc etc. or crew at a top level for friends and family in adult classes and they never see a cent of support or funding for Aus Sailing and have buckley's of ever being selected in something like a Youth AC squad.

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Im at Forster NSW for the a Wildcat and been talking to some of the people waiting for their 15's to arrive, there are a lot of very good young sailors getting these boats, in the interim YA has supplied Nacra 17's to the youth development squad to race, can't wait to see these 16 year olds go floggin past me

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I had the chance to setup and derig the first Nacra 15 in the U.S. It was a prototype boat, so very overweight, but the rigging was pretty solid. Same setup as an F18 Infusion, well executed, and I like the concept better than the Weta for the price. The boat is more Nacra 17 than A-Cat, so a solid argument to be made that it is a better training platform for the 17, and it will be getting the foiling upgrades when the 17 does. The big downside right now is Nacra can't commit to a production schedule, but yacht clubs are buying these up for fleet boats!

 

That being said, there are plenty of dislikes:

 

1) The boat is built in vinylester/glass, which means it needs about twice the material of an all carbon A-cat, and the hull volume is much higher than the A's, hence the weight delta. Downside to glass/vinylester is over time the stiffness degrades relative to carbon/epoxy, but most existing youth boats (Opti's, lasers, C420's, FJ's) are built with similar methods, so similar life expectancy.

 

2) Nacra used their standard extrusions which results in a heavy platform for a 15footer (I would guess 20-30lbs heavier than extrusions sized for the lower loads), but its stiff enough to foil...

 

3) Three sails to replace instead of 1. I'd guesstimate replacement sail costs on the order of 25% more than an A-cat.

 

4) Three sails to handle, rig, de-rig etc. A is much simpler from that perspective.

 

The latest Nacra build quality is really quite good for a production boat, but still not something I would run up on the rocks (the Hobie Tiger is likely better built for that purpose, still a beach wheels only kind of ride however). My biggest complaint is this now fractures the fleets; we have N15's, F16's, N17's, F18's all competing for the same market and fleet sizes in the 16's and 18's are down a bit as a result. My humble opinion is the N15 shouldn't exist, instead they should have added full foiling and t-foil rudders to their F16 and shown that class what a great option foiling is for that fleet, but we have the N15 now and for the price its a lot of boat!!

 

The A is arguably the fastest growing high performance fleet in North America. Worlds are in Florida in 2020. Older boats are still relevant in lighter air and suitable for conversion. Friend of mine is converting his Tool to foiling in the Vancouver area. They are easy to rig, relatively easy to sail and technology loaded. You may not win a worlds without a D3 or DNA F1, but Matt and Lars were duking it out for king of the hill on old hull shapes converted to foilers at NA's two weeks ago.

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Good to see the Nacra 15 finally sailing at the youth worlds and worth mentioning that the American team is second after six races

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the pics came from the Auckland Youth Worlds site but the "Victorian Nacra 15 Youth Class" facebook page has the choice bit's on it, some great videos of the starts and finishes plus results etc, the French kids have sewn up the series but its close between the next three boats. It's been exciting racing to follow with one race to go tomorrow to end the series then all 21 Nacra 15's at Auckland are sold to Aussie kids and will be over here in a few weeks. The standard of kids hopping on these boats is astounding they have been sailing the Nacra 17, F18's, Vipers plus high level dinghy sailing waiting for the 15's to arrive. Worth noting that the US kids are running third at the moment

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If the majority of those boats go to the nats (and who spends that much on a youth boat and then not go to major events) it will rocket the class into the top 5 in Australia based on nationals fleet sizes. Only H16, F18, A-class and Taipan 4.9 will be bigger. Its a shame the event calendar doesn't work out for them to have been delivered straight from Auckland to Lake Cootharaba

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New NACRA 15:

Deck sweeper sail for single handed. A new class?

Z boards for double handed. Does this screw current boat owners? The trunk will have to be moved forward.

This is the same story as the NACRA 17. Early owners get screwed.

 

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