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Presuming Ed

ISAF wants to dump the classification code.

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There's a proposal for consideration at ISAF's annual conference in November that the classification code be dumped. The proposal is from the executive committee, no less, so has some weight behind it.

 

Bloody crazy idea, if you ask me.

 

Submission here

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I sorta agree with their rationale.

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There are and always will be clubs and classes that want to control professionals, as well as ones that don't. This proposal moves the effort and angst of running a classification scheme from ISAF into the laps of the (mostly) unpaid volunteers running clubs and classes. Thanks a bunch, ISAF Executive Committee.

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Why do you say it like that Dogwatch?

Seems to me you write some language covering those you wish to deem "professional sailors", toss that into your SI's and done.

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It won't be "done". There will be protests and appeals. ISAF has a process. Now they want it to be somebody else's problem. Specifically, the poor sods running classes and clubs.

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The current approach is a bit broken, doesn't mean the intent isn't right. This is something ISAF should sort out and not pass the buck.

 

Classes and events shouldn’t be the ones reviewing each sailor and seeing where they sit.

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+1

There is a time when I would have been classes as a rock star. Anyone hiring me as such would have been very disapointed :rolleyes:

About time!!!!! Some of us who have never even considered sailing for money ever in our entire lives were automatically classified right along side those who make a living based soley on their on the water performance .
The rule is an an abomination.
It was written by immoral fools who were willing to hurt innocent people to stop cheaters,

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The current approach is a bit broken, doesn't mean the intent isn't right. This is something ISAF should sort out and not pass the buck.

 

Classes and events shouldn’t be the ones reviewing each sailor and seeing where they sit.

Yup.

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Isn't it currently up to the classes and OA's to decide whether or not to use the classification system? RRS 76/1 allows the OA to reject an entry for any reason (subject to 76.3 and the US Sailing Prescription) if they do so in writing before the first race. I think its only right that the organization making that determination justify that decision rather than pass the buck onto ISAF.

 

I agree with the Gouv because the ISAF system excludes many people who work in "the industry" who would be accepted by local organizations who know the situation better.

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Great idea and something we started asking for in 2006. There's no way Anthony Matusch should be flying halfway around the world on a Class's dime to tell a Chilean naval officer whether he is a Cat 1 or 3. It was always a clueless system that tried to take the honor system out of Grand Prix sailing and failed miserably.

 

Classes that care can maintain a database and spend less than they did for the once-a-year ISAF Classification Officer's travel and board at a Worlds. For the classes that are amateur and honorable, a one-line rule about paid sailors like the Viper or others should cover it fine.

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Exactly. Just because I spent all week moving boats from A to B for a paycheck doesn't mean I am any good at racing any of them.

So what? Class 2 no longer exists.

 

Q. Can a sailor who gets paid for the delivery of a boat be a Group 1?

A. Yes, unless he races on that boat, in which case he would be Group 3.

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Classes that care can maintain a database and spend less than they did for the once-a-year ISAF Classification Officer's travel and board at a Worlds. For the classes that are amateur and honorable, a one-line rule about paid sailors like the Viper or others should cover it fine.

Ever served as a class association officer, Block? If you had, you'd know that there always someone who thinks rules are for the other people.

 

Maintain a database, very nice, now where's the data coming from and how is the class going to handle protests and appeals? How about someone who threatens to sue the class association over a decision? Think it wouldn't happen?

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If someone actually wants to pay people to sail their day sailor around a W/L course, who are we to stop them

If a class wants to control cost escalation by controlling professionals, who are you to tell them they cannot?

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Classes that care can maintain a database and spend less than they did for the once-a-year ISAF Classification Officer's travel and board at a Worlds. For the classes that are amateur and honorable, a one-line rule about paid sailors like the Viper or others should cover it fine.

Ever served as a class association officer, Block?

 

Why do you call me by my last name rather than the name I've chosen to use here?

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Classes that care can maintain a database and spend less than they did for the once-a-year ISAF Classification Officer's travel and board at a Worlds. For the classes that are amateur and honorable, a one-line rule about paid sailors like the Viper or others should cover it fine.

Ever served as a class association officer, Block? If you had, you'd know that there always someone who thinks rules are for the other people.

 

Maintain a database, very nice, now where's the data coming from and how is the class going to handle protests and appeals? How about someone who threatens to sue the class association over a decision? Think it wouldn't happen?

 

It isn't a surprise at all that an old Englishman would think the ISAF system is great. Matusch has been the one doing the lion's share of the junkets so you know the UK perspective is always respected, and you've got paternalism in your DNA. You like being ruled.

 

We don't, and the ISAF system simply doesn't work for most nations...ISAF does not have enough people who speak enough languages to be competent at administering the Classification system for enough events. Plus it is expensive to keep the database running, and ISAF needs to guard all its pennies now that the America's Cup isn't handing out bags of money and the IOC is getting bitchy with its funding...

 

Your fears are the same as the fears of everyone who loses an authority figure. "What are we to do!" "Oh no, a lawsuit!" "We can't handle ALL THAT ourselves" "Woe is me!"

 

Buck up and use the roadmap that ISAF provides to classes if this one passes. It will include arbitration provisions, criteria they've found useful, and a few other tips for the handful of classes that want to use any form of Classification system.

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Why do you call me by my last name rather than the name I've chosen to use here?

Not exactly a closely guarded secret, is it?

 

However if it bothers you, I will desist.

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Classes that care can maintain a database and spend less than they did for the once-a-year ISAF Classification Officer's travel and board at a Worlds. For the classes that are amateur and honorable, a one-line rule about paid sailors like the Viper or others should cover it fine.

Ever served as a class association officer, Block? If you had, you'd know that there always someone who thinks rules are for the other people.

 

Maintain a database, very nice, now where's the data coming from and how is the class going to handle protests and appeals? How about someone who threatens to sue the class association over a decision? Think it wouldn't happen?

 

 

It isn't a surprise at all that an old Englishman would think the ISAF system is great. Matusch has been the one doing the lion's share of the junkets so you know the UK perspective is always respected, and you've got paternalism in your DNA. You like being ruled.

 

 

Nice theory, except my DNA comes from another part of the world.

 

Unlike you, I've helped run a class association that ran it's own sailor classification. It was a fucking trauma. Only a megalomaniac would want to take it on.

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Why do you call me by my last name rather than the name I've chosen to use here?

Not exactly a closely guarded secret, is it?

 

However if it bothers you, I will desist.

 

Thank you. You can call me Alan or Al if you prefer it to Clean, but unless I am in the military or school, last name appellation seems a bit douchey

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Has anyone else been assigned Group 32 status for being so fucking awesome?

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Classes that care can maintain a database and spend less than they did for the once-a-year ISAF Classification Officer's travel and board at a Worlds. For the classes that are amateur and honorable, a one-line rule about paid sailors like the Viper or others should cover it fine.

Ever served as a class association officer, Block? If you had, you'd know that there always someone who thinks rules are for the other people.

 

Maintain a database, very nice, now where's the data coming from and how is the class going to handle protests and appeals? How about someone who threatens to sue the class association over a decision? Think it wouldn't happen?

 

It isn't a surprise at all that an old Englishman would think the ISAF system is great. Matusch has been the one doing the lion's share of the junkets so you know the UK perspective is always respected, and you've got paternalism in your DNA. You like being ruled.

 

Nice theory, except my DNA comes from another part of the world.

 

Unlike you, I've helped run a class association that ran it's own sailor classification. It was a fucking trauma. Only a megalomaniac would want to take it on.

 

DNA thing is a joke.

 

That's excellent info about your past class. Can you explain how your classification system worked and what were the pressures on it? What could you not do that Matusch and his team could?

 

I know the Viper guys don't call it a trauma, and they use a significantly different scheme than the ISAF one.

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The problem with the classification was not the concept or having it administered by ISAF. Having ISAF administer it for tne reasons that Dogwatch mentions, is a good thing. The problem was with the ridiculous definition of what constitutes being a professional sailor. One fallacy is that the present approach assumes that no amateur sailor can be equally as knowledgeable or skillful as a person paid to sail on a boat. Ludicrous. Another root problem is with amateurs that think their chances of being competitive are diminished because another boat owner hired someone to crew, instead of thinking "I need to learn more, practice more, prep the boat better, develop the crew etc.."

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The problem with the classification was not the concept or having it administered by ISAF. Having ISAF administer it for tne reasons that Dogwatch mentions, is a good thing. The problem was with the ridiculous definition of what constitutes being a professional sailor. One fallacy is that the present approach assumes that no amateur sailor can be equally as knowledgeable or skillful as a person paid to sail on a boat. Ludicrous. Another root problem is with amateurs that think their chances of being competitive are diminished because another boat owner hired someone to crew, instead of thinking "I need to learn more, practice more, prep the boat better, develop the crew etc.."

 

That might not have been the problem for you, but as someone who goes to an awful lot of major championships, ISAF's administration - or rather, the complete inconsistency between Classification officers' decisions and methodology from officer to officer and event to event was a major problem for many people and many classes. It is also very expensive to administer for a handful of classes, most of which have like 8-10 boats competing in their major championships, and without the ability to have people open their bank accounts, it was still pretty much guesswork and the honor system with the pretense of more.

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All they need to do is to figure out how to differentiate someone who makes money cleaning/fixing/delivering boats and sails for fun from someone who gets paid to "clean/fix/deliver" a boat when they're really paid crew to race. Too many cheaters. I think public shaming is the answer.

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All they need to do is to figure out how to differentiate someone who makes money cleaning/fixing/delivering boats and sails for fun from someone who gets paid to "clean/fix/deliver" a boat when they're really paid crew to race. Too many cheaters. I think public shaming is the answer.

I'm convinced that public shaming is not the answer. The urge of winning is a much stronger force for many than the disrespect of the fleet.

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All they need to do is to figure out how to differentiate someone who makes money cleaning/fixing/delivering boats and sails for fun from someone who gets paid to "clean/fix/deliver" a boat when they're really paid crew to race. Too many cheaters. I think public shaming is the answer.

I'm convinced that public shaming is not the answer. The urge of winning is a much stronger force for many than the disrespect of the fleet.

 

Give them 2 warnings then ban them for a bit

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As a true amateur I am in favor of an international classification system that is administered by a third party that is invested in sailing. That said I would revise the rule and the definitions in such a way that people that are paid to sail or race are PROs and that everyone else in the industry is an amateur. Yard workers, boat builders, delivery skippers, boat brokers and even sail makers should not be excluded just because of their activity, however, anyone paid to race on a boat should be a "PRO." This would permit classes to reduce cost by saying (if they want) NO PROS. You are not permitted to pay anyone or only one, etc. to race on your boat.

 

Robin

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As a true amateur I am in favor of an international classification system that is administered by a third party that is invested in sailing. That said I would revise the rule and the definitions in such a way that people that are paid to sail or race are PROs and that everyone else in the industry is an amateur. Yard workers, boat builders, delivery skippers, boat brokers and even sail makers should not be excluded just because of their activity, however, anyone paid to race on a boat should be a "PRO." This would permit classes to reduce cost by saying (if they want) NO PROS. You are not permitted to pay anyone or only one, etc. to race on your boat.

 

Robin

 

You have just repeated the exact justification for the existing code, and cited most of the changes made during the last revision.

 

Now address the fact that there is widespread gaming of the system, that it costs a fortune to administer, and there are less and less boats sailing in classes that use it.

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That's excellent info about your past class. Can you explain how your classification system worked and what were the pressures on it? What could you not do that Matusch and his team could?

Annoying as it may be, I have reasons not to want to go into detail on that here.

 

The issue was that rules that were black and white on paper tended to go a little grey when administered by a class association that was close to the members. Arguably a bit of flexibility is a good thing but when flexibility reached its limit, that put the class association into a disciplinary role that wasn't what the officers signed up to do.

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How about if we back up for a moment and look at the history of how we got to this rule in the first place. The very reason for the existence of this rule is now long past, and a wholesale rethink is in order.

 

Go back to the mid-80's when Ullman wrote an article for Sailing World called something like "Get the pros out of sailing". What he said was that it was absurd that he could, as the owner of a growing sailmaker, take his loft employees with him on a MORC or PHRF race as his complete crew. He knew it was a death march. So, along the way SoCal PHRF created the Marine Industry Racer rule. It worked pretty well. Guys that worked for a loft were easily identifiable.

 

About the same time prize money was just starting in the US with the Ultimate and Pro Sail series. At the time, the IOC did not allow "professionals" to compete in the Olympics. So, USYRU set up the US Professional Sailing Association. Essentially, it was a way to "cleanse" the prize money for people who competed in these two series. The prize money was paid to USPSA, who then in turn gave it to that sailors campaign fund.

 

Then the IOC changed their pro rule, so the need to "cleanse" the prize money went away (at almost the same time both series collapsed anyway).

 

USYRU had in the mean time created the Group 1, 2, 3 thing. At the time, it was by far mostly about sailmakers. But there was no way to administer the list.

 

Case in point, I sailed in two events in Long Beach on successive weekends. Same sailor in those two events was categorized as a 1 and a 3 on successive weekends. I called Ullman the Saturday night of the second weekend when the guy was suddenly a 1 (I sailed with Ullman a lot, I'm friends with his whole family). I said "so Judge X says your guy is a Group 1 guy". Ullman just laughed and said "nope, he's a 3, I sign his check every week". But nothing happened that weekend, and the Group 3 guy got away with it, blessed by the US Sailing Judges at that event.

 

It seemed we needed a database of who was a 1, 2, 3. I went to the US Sailing AGM in Cape Cod in '94, and started to promote this idea. Got tons of resistance, not the least of which was from then SW publisher John Burnham, and Bob Johnstone. We were at a post meeting party the Saturday night of the AGM at John Osmond's house. I sat with Burnham and Johnstone and explained what I was thinking. Eventually, Burnham said "ok, write an article about this" and Johnstone, as he always does, listened and eventually saw the wisdom of it. It was going to help is brand a lot, and it did starting with the 105 class.

 

After the article was published, I called then US Sailing Pres Dave Irish and told him I'd raise my hand and run a new entity that was needed to get this all organized. At the time, I was President of what was left of USPSA. We had no real reason for being after the change of the IOC pro rules, and I was either going to find a way to create some sort of value, or close it down. I wasn't interested in trying to be a "sanctioning" body only, and charge events fees just because.

 

Irish said "dumb idea, we don't need this list, too costly to maintain ect". We closed down USPSA, and I dropped the idea of a Group 2 and 3 list.

 

Then, as Irish is leaving office, he appoints himself as the eligibility czar, sets up the Group 2 and 3 structure and CHARGES Group 1 people $25 to have their virginity blessed. I cringed, thankful I had nothing to do with that. Eventually that nonsense stopped, and the list sort of worked, sort of.

 

But how does an event that is run in the US know anything about who was a really a sailmaker or whatever in Italy, or where ever. Impossible.

 

In the early "00's, then ISAF Pres Henderson called me for all the background on how the US started the list. I told him. He asked me if I cared if ISAF took over the responsibility. I had no dog in the hunt, and told him good luck.

 

Now we have guys in Dragon's, Etchells, J70's, various Melgi classes ect paying people a couple of hundred bucks a day (or a lot more in a few cases) to pull ropes for them.

 

How exactly does ISAF propose to monitor who is paying who?

 

While the notion of this list is worthwhile, it is simply unenforceable.

 

Besides, it is often less expensive to pay people to sail than it is for an owner to have to appease the Group 1 guys. Like is said about the Farr 40 class, best amateurs money can buy.

 

ISAF and US Sailing (and probably a ton of other MNA's) are becoming mostly just regulatory and taxing authorities. They do not provide added value for sailors.

 

One of the biggest problems with the current system, and all of ISAF, is that pro sailors have almost zero voice within the organization. The "athlete's council" (or whatever it is called) is there only to serve Olympic sailors.

 

I love the chicken little attitude here, that the sport will collapse without this list. Hardly.

 

Everyone knows in which classes people get paid to sail. The sport tends to be self-selecting. If you want to sail in a class where people pay others to sail, everyone knows where that is. If you don't want that, you also know where to look.

 

The smart classes who want some sort of system to identify paid sailors will get together and figure it out on their own. They are best served by keeping ISAF out of the equation.

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The smart classes who want some sort of system to identify paid sailors will get together and figure it out on their own. They are best served by keeping ISAF out of the equation.

Interesting history but your conclusion is simply an assertion.

 

I don't think anyone thinks the sport would collapse without the ISAF system. What will happen is that classes that want to will continue to control professionals, inconsistently and with more likelihood of perceived favouritism/nepotism and sailors who don't want those accusations made of them will be less likely to volunteer as class officers.

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The smart classes who want some sort of system to identify paid sailors will get together and figure it out on their own. They are best served by keeping ISAF out of the equation.

Interesting history but your conclusion is simply an assertion.

 

I don't think anyone thinks the sport would collapse without the ISAF system. What will happen is that classes that want to will continue to control professionals, inconsistently and with more likelihood of perceived favouritism/nepotism and sailors who don't want those accusations made of them will be less likely to volunteer as class officers.

 

First, let's identify.

 

1) Farr 40 - relies extensively on the system but disliked by vast majority of competitors

2) Melges 32 - relies extensively on the system but disliked by vast majority of competitors

3) Melges 24 - only used for Corinthian Class, roundly disliked by fleet

4) J/70 - only used for Corinthian Class, fleet not really sure yet

5) Farr 30 - really only used for one event per year

6) J/105 - used to keep all pros off boat

 

What other classes are using the system?

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The smart classes who want some sort of system to identify paid sailors will get together and figure it out on their own. They are best served by keeping ISAF out of the equation.

Interesting history but your conclusion is simply an assertion.

 

I don't think anyone thinks the sport would collapse without the ISAF system. What will happen is that classes that want to will continue to control professionals, inconsistently and with more likelihood of perceived favouritism/nepotism and sailors who don't want those accusations made of them will be less likely to volunteer as class officers.

 

Many of the classes that use this have a professional class administrator to handle this stuff, not a volunteer. Stagg, for instance, gets a mountain of money to run the F40 class.

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As a true amateur I am in favor of an international classification system that is administered by a third party that is invested in sailing. That said I would revise the rule and the definitions in such a way that people that are paid to sail or race are PROs and that everyone else in the industry is an amateur. Yard workers, boat builders, delivery skippers, boat brokers and even sail makers should not be excluded just because of their activity, however, anyone paid to race on a boat should be a "PRO." This would permit classes to reduce cost by saying (if they want) NO PROS. You are not permitted to pay anyone or only one, etc. to race on your boat.

 

Robin

 

You have just repeated the exact justification for the existing code, and cited most of the changes made during the last revision.

 

Now address the fact that there is widespread gaming of the system, that it costs a fortune to administer, and there are less and less boats sailing in classes that use it.

The fact that you have "gaming of the system" (cheaters) does not mean that a simple rational classification that has widespread support is not a good idea. You need to have a place to start. Without that we cannot be a self policing sport.

 

Robin

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As a true amateur I am in favor of an international classification system that is administered by a third party that is invested in sailing. That said I would revise the rule and the definitions in such a way that people that are paid to sail or race are PROs and that everyone else in the industry is an amateur. Yard workers, boat builders, delivery skippers, boat brokers and even sail makers should not be excluded just because of their activity, however, anyone paid to race on a boat should be a "PRO." This would permit classes to reduce cost by saying (if they want) NO PROS. You are not permitted to pay anyone or only one, etc. to race on your boat.

 

Robin

 

Robin,

 

The old Group 2 covered many of the professions you listed. I would argue that those people are more "PRO" than someone who was just paid to race, especially a sail maker.

 

To put this in the context of bike racing. If I work at a bike shop, I have access to state of the art tools to keep my machine in tip top condition. I can get employee discounts on equipment. I can even skip out of work early to get to a race or large group ride. Is that person a pro? I say yes.

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As a true amateur I am in favor of an international classification system that is administered by a third party that is invested in sailing. That said I would revise the rule and the definitions in such a way that people that are paid to sail or race are PROs and that everyone else in the industry is an amateur. Yard workers, boat builders, delivery skippers, boat brokers and even sail makers should not be excluded just because of their activity, however, anyone paid to race on a boat should be a "PRO." This would permit classes to reduce cost by saying (if they want) NO PROS. You are not permitted to pay anyone or only one, etc. to race on your boat.

 

Robin

 

Robin,

 

The old Group 2 covered many of the professions you listed. I would argue that those people are more "PRO" than someone who was just paid to race, especially a sail maker.

 

To put this in the context of bike racing. If I work at a bike shop, I have access to state of the art tools to keep my machine in tip top condition. I can get employee discounts on equipment. I can even skip out of work early to get to a race or large group ride. Is that person a pro? I say yes.

And I would say no. However, it misses my point. Let us settle on a simple classification system and use it. Lets settle on the group of sailors that we all agree are "Pros" and try it for a while.

 

Here is an example from the sailing world that exactly mirrors yours from the bike shop. Many years ago, my brother was an aspiring actor who needed work, through me he met the owner of marine supply store who was willing to be flexible about his hours for such things as auditions etc. (did not pay much). My brother soon became a jack of all trades, splicing on the side, really good at repairing things and because he sailed with me he could relate real life experience with certain products etc. Did the fact that he had access to "discounts" and could splice and repair and was a very good local foredeck make him a "Pro". I think not. I certainly never paid him to race or even to sail or to help me with maintenance. (He is now in real estate and cannot sail on weekends).

 

 

Robin

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As a true amateur I am in favor of an international classification system that is administered by a third party that is invested in sailing. That said I would revise the rule and the definitions in such a way that people that are paid to sail or race are PROs and that everyone else in the industry is an amateur. Yard workers, boat builders, delivery skippers, boat brokers and even sail makers should not be excluded just because of their activity, however, anyone paid to race on a boat should be a "PRO." This would permit classes to reduce cost by saying (if they want) NO PROS. You are not permitted to pay anyone or only one, etc. to race on your boat.

 

Robin

Robin,

 

The old Group 2 covered many of the professions you listed. I would argue that those people are more "PRO" than someone who was just paid to race, especially a sail maker.

 

To put this in the context of bike racing. If I work at a bike shop, I have access to state of the art tools to keep my machine in tip top condition. I can get employee discounts on equipment. I can even skip out of work early to get to a race or large group ride. Is that person a pro? I say yes.

Even if you are 5' 3", 360 lbs, out of shape and would get lapped out of any Cat 5 crit?

 

Plenty of skilled people working on boats who aren't great racers.

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As a true amateur I am in favor of an international classification system that is administered by a third party that is invested in sailing. That said I would revise the rule and the definitions in such a way that people that are paid to sail or race are PROs and that everyone else in the industry is an amateur. Yard workers, boat builders, delivery skippers, boat brokers and even sail makers should not be excluded just because of their activity, however, anyone paid to race on a boat should be a "PRO." This would permit classes to reduce cost by saying (if they want) NO PROS. You are not permitted to pay anyone or only one, etc. to race on your boat.

 

Robin

 

You have just repeated the exact justification for the existing code, and cited most of the changes made during the last revision.

 

Now address the fact that there is widespread gaming of the system, that it costs a fortune to administer, and there are less and less boats sailing in classes that use it.

The fact that you have "gaming of the system" (cheaters) does not mean that a simple rational classification that has widespread support is not a good idea. You need to have a place to start. Without that we cannot be a self policing sport.

 

Robin

 

A simple rational classification has eluded ISAF and anyone else trying to accomplish it, largely because a single system cannot handle the needs of both the corinthian J/70 owner in New Jersey and the million-a-year campaign Farr 40 owner from Sardinia.

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Thats ridiculous. Many sailmakers don't race, and a good number can't even sail. Classifying them as "Pros" is a joke... as they would be a hindrence on even a club-racer.

Many years back, the top sailors in the Tampa Bay area were several chiropractors and a TV repairman. Many national championships, Mallory and Prince of Wales between them. Yes, they were in demand as unpaid guest drivers (when not sailing their own boats). Why would they be Cat 1 and a non-sailing sailmaker or boatbuilder be Cat 3 if the intent of the system is to lower the bar to enable average Joe boat owner to be competitive?

As an aside, the local PHRF fleet instituted a limit on MIRs several years back. It was rescinded a couple years later when the boat owners found they needed MIRs after all, as they also served as teachers to help train the regular crews, in addition to sailtrimming and tactical help during races.

 

 

 

As a true amateur I am in favor of an international classification system that is administered by a third party that is invested in sailing. That said I would revise the rule and the definitions in such a way that people that are paid to sail or race are PROs and that everyone else in the industry is an amateur. Yard workers, boat builders, delivery skippers, boat brokers and even sail makers should not be excluded just because of their activity, however, anyone paid to race on a boat should be a "PRO." This would permit classes to reduce cost by saying (if they want) NO PROS. You are not permitted to pay anyone or only one, etc. to race on your boat.

 

Robin

Robin,

 

The old Group 2 covered many of the professions you listed. I would argue that those people are more "PRO" than someone who was just paid to race, especially a sail maker.

 

To put this in the context of bike racing. If I work at a bike shop, I have access to state of the art tools to keep my machine in tip top condition. I can get employee discounts on equipment. I can even skip out of work early to get to a race or large group ride. Is that person a pro? I say yes.

And I would say no. However, it misses my point. Let us settle on a simple classification system and use it. Lets settle on the group of sailors that we all agree are "Pros" and try it for a while.

 

Here is an example from the sailing world that exactly mirrors yours from the bike shop. Many years ago, my brother was an aspiring actor who needed work, through me he met the owner of marine supply store who was willing to be flexible about his hours for such things as auditions etc. (did not pay much). My brother soon became a jack of all trades, splicing on the side, really good at repairing things and because he sailed with me he could relate real life experience with certain products etc. Did the fact that he had access to "discounts" and could splice and repair and was a very good local foredeck make him a "Pro". I think not. I certainly never paid him to race or even to sail or to help me with maintenance. (He is now in real estate and cannot sail on weekends).

 

 

Robin

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Thats ridiculous. Many sailmakers don't race, and a good number can't even sail. Classifying them as "Pros" is a joke...

But back in the amateur days many sailmakers couldn't design sails and had last seen a sewing machine when their mummy made them some fancy dress back in primary school...

 

But if every class who uses ISAF classification whinges about it it must create an awful lot of crap for the ISAF staff. Certainly easy to imagine them wanting to say "**** that for a game of soldiers, here you are whingers, over to you, lets see how you get on with it." Like bank crashes, its now long enough since the last time that most everyone who knew the problems that come up is out of the game, so its time to go round the circle again...

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That is pretty much how we got where we are. When no one got paid legally there were plenty of ways to cheat. The ISAF system tries to just get it all above-board but does not always succeed.

 

Thats ridiculous. Many sailmakers don't race, and a good number can't even sail. Classifying them as "Pros" is a joke...

But back in the amateur days many sailmakers couldn't design sails and had last seen a sewing machine when their mummy made them some fancy dress back in primary school...

But if every class who uses ISAF classification whinges about it it must create an awful lot of crap for the ISAF staff. Certainly easy to imagine them wanting to say "**** that for a game of soldiers, here you are whingers, over to you, lets see how you get on with it." Like bank crashes, its now long enough since the last time that most everyone who knew the problems that come up is out of the game, so its time to go round the circle again...

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The system sucks because it wrongly classifies me.

I am a human being, not some theoretical construct

I fix and maintain sailing toys. Lots of my customers are my sailing buddies .

As I am the only sailboat repairman within fifty miles, most of the boats in any contest at my club are boats that I have helped maintain.

I have never been paid to race. I have not been paid in any way shape or form to be on any boat at any time to do anything having to do with competing in a contest.

I am especially enraged by the ISAF classification system because it labels me as a potential cheater who should be restricted from having a chance to act out.

The fact is the classification system is supposed to stop OWNERS from purchasing talent

Because ISAF can't figure out how to force owners to be sportsmanlike ....( If we say no paying teammates you can't do it )

ISAF decided to classify everybody in the boat business as a pro sailor

This human being is NOT a sailor whose racing talents are for hire!!

Because the rule screws me, one very real person, I find the rule and those who tolerate its use to be intolerable

And

There are others like me being disparaged by the disgusting rule and the disgusting people who tolerate its use

Is that clear enough

What are the exact races you are excluded from?

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The smart classes who want some sort of system to identify paid sailors will get together and figure it out on their own. They are best served by keeping ISAF out of the equation.

 

Interesting history but your conclusion is simply an assertion.

I don't think anyone thinks the sport would collapse without the ISAF system. What will happen is that classes that want to will continue to control professionals, inconsistently and with more likelihood of perceived favouritism/nepotism and sailors who don't want those accusations made of them will be less likely to volunteer as class officers.

First, let's identify.

 

1) Farr 40 - relies extensively on the system but disliked by vast majority of competitors

2) Melges 32 - relies extensively on the system but disliked by vast majority of competitors

3) Melges 24 - only used for Corinthian Class, roundly disliked by fleet

4) J/70 - only used for Corinthian Class, fleet not really sure yet

5) Farr 30 - really only used for one event per year

6) J/105 - used to keep all pros off boat

 

What other classes are using the system?

If the ISAF system is as heavily disliked as you claim - why haven't any of those classes (most with pro class management) come up with their own solution that you claim is so easy?

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Not allowed to.

 

ISAF SAILOR CLASSIFICATION CODE

General

The ISAF Sailor Classification Code exists as a service to provide Events and Classes with an international system of classification for sailors.

Events and Classes are not under any obligation to use a classification system but should they wish to do so the ISAF Code is the only system that shall be used. When using the Code, they are under an obligation to properly administer and implement the Code.

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Not allowed to.

ISAF SAILOR CLASSIFICATION CODE

General

The ISAF Sailor Classification Code exists as a service to provide Events and Classes with an international system of classification for sailors.

Events and Classes are not under any obligation to use a classification system but should they wish to do so the ISAF Code is the only system that shall be used. When using the Code, they are under an obligation to properly administer and implement the Code.

There are ways around that

E.g. Require class membership for all/x % crew and have membership only available to amateurs

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Because the owners like sailing with a boat load of "gelato salesmen".

 

I think golf handicaps are the answer.

We place too much value on winning and not enough value on learning and improvement.

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As a true amateur I am in favor of an international classification system that is administered by a third party that is invested in sailing. That said I would revise the rule and the definitions in such a way that people that are paid to sail or race are PROs and that everyone else in the industry is an amateur. Yard workers, boat builders, delivery skippers, boat brokers and even sail makers should not be excluded just because of their activity, however, anyone paid to race on a boat should be a "PRO." This would permit classes to reduce cost by saying (if they want) NO PROS. You are not permitted to pay anyone or only one, etc. to race on your boat.

 

Robin

Robin,

 

The old Group 2 covered many of the professions you listed. I would argue that those people are more "PRO" than someone who was just paid to race, especially a sail maker.

 

To put this in the context of bike racing. If I work at a bike shop, I have access to state of the art tools to keep my machine in tip top condition. I can get employee discounts on equipment. I can even skip out of work early to get to a race or large group ride. Is that person a pro? I say yes.

Even if you are 5' 3", 360 lbs, out of shape and would get lapped out of any Cat 5 crit?

 

Plenty of skilled people working on boats who aren't great racers.

Having both raced bikes, and worked in bike shops, and raced sailboats, and made a living building sailboats, I have to say that RATM doesn't make sense.

 

But there are also really important differences between bike racing and boat racing.

 

Ironically, bike racing is/(was?) the only olympic sport back in the amateur days, where winning money was permitted for amateurs. In my career in the late 70s/early 80s, it was $1000/week max to stay amateur. There was also a max prize I forget.

 

In bike racing, you will only be a pro if you are good enough. You can't turn pro as a cat III amateur. If you are USCF licensed, which is the only way you can turn pro, you have to come up through the system. I think they changed some details but it used to be you had to make II before turning pro (I was international--I think that distinction has been abolished).

 

So bike racing PRO is based on MERIT and racing is TIGHTLY CONTROLLED by a national/international body (USCF and UCI). There is NO racing outside of this--unless you want your license revoked. No license - no racy in any worthwhile events.

 

Compare to sailing.

 

Sailing is based on EQUIPMENT (money) primarily, and talent second. Further and most importantly, it is NOT AT ALL CONTROLLED by an national/international body. Racing events are created all the time, there is NO LICENSING. IT is a free for all compared to bike racing.

 

Consider that last point, Sailboat racing happens all the time, you simply pay your entry fee and show up. You race. There's no money to win. There is no clear farm system to become pro. There isn't a pro circuit in the same way as there is in bike racing. There are certain pro things going on but they are disorganized, disjointed and totally open to amateurs. If someone wants you on the boat, you are on. Does that make you a pro?

 

Are we going to institute TIGHT CONTROLS and LICENSES like bike racing?

 

Obviously NOT.

 

Then the PRO thing is always going to be nebulous. Add in that talent is minor (good boat is major) and you can see that there is no merit based system. Not even in lasers. You have to spend a LOT more to race a laser to get to the Olympic trials than you do to race a bike up to that point. IF you have the talent on a bike, you are going to get there. You don't need daddy warbucks buying you anything.

 

Now I must note that my bike racing ideas are from the 80s. Maybe something has changed. But my brother went to the OTC twice as an elite amateur. For free...and if you make the U.S. team, you are going to be on the US Cycling Team. Try that in sailing without Uncle Warchest...

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As a true amateur I am in favor of an international classification system that is administered by a third party that is invested in sailing. That said I would revise the rule and the definitions in such a way that people that are paid to sail or race are PROs and that everyone else in the industry is an amateur. Yard workers, boat builders, delivery skippers, boat brokers and even sail makers should not be excluded just because of their activity, however, anyone paid to race on a boat should be a "PRO." This would permit classes to reduce cost by saying (if they want) NO PROS. You are not permitted to pay anyone or only one, etc. to race on your boat.

 

Robin

That is just about what the actual code says. The qualifier was whether or not you possessed "specific knowledge as a requirement of your employment". So say you were a bottom painter or sewing machine operator as well as a really, really good sailor. Understand sail shape, rig tune, top shelf navigator, etc. That did not make you a Cat. 3 because your employment didn't matter that you could sail or not.

The problem is/was that the ISAF didn't follow the letter of the code. Their FAQs sheet was often in conflict with the actual code. Add to that a whole host of folks that fancied themselves as Cat 3 sailors, who were not actually Cat 3 sailors and the whole thing is one huge joke.

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As a true amateur I am in favor of an international classification system that is administered by a third party that is invested in sailing. That said I would revise the rule and the definitions in such a way that people that are paid to sail or race are PROs and that everyone else in the industry is an amateur. Yard workers, boat builders, delivery skippers, boat brokers and even sail makers should not be excluded just because of their activity, however, anyone paid to race on a boat should be a "PRO." This would permit classes to reduce cost by saying (if they want) NO PROS. You are not permitted to pay anyone or only one, etc. to race on your boat.

 

Robin

Cat 2 was neither here nor there. It was essentially rehab to move from being a former Cat 3 with aspirations to become a Cat 1.

 

Robin,

 

The old Group 2 covered many of the professions you listed. I would argue that those people are more "PRO" than someone who was just paid to race, especially a sail maker.

 

To put this in the context of bike racing. If I work at a bike shop, I have access to state of the art tools to keep my machine in tip top condition. I can get employee discounts on equipment. I can even skip out of work early to get to a race or large group ride. Is that person a pro? I say yes.

 

 

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In the words of a WaterGate conspirator "Follow the money" to make a simple rule. I know it would not make everyone happy nor would it be a true test of "talent" but if you are paid to race, or get an appearance fee to race (even if you are no good) you should be classified as a "Pro" if you are anything else, including a sailmaker, so long as you do not take or receive any sort of cash payment for just racing (not your product) you should not be a pro. There should also be a time limit going backward and I do not care what it is: 3, 5, or 10 years.

 

Robin

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Robin one little flaw in that is that a sailmaker will sail with a client or potential client as a quid pro quo to sell more sails and thus earn a commission. So is that sailmaker sailing for the money or isn't he/she?

Then you have a whole bunch of "salemakers" who don't know the pointy end of sissors but are called sailmakers. I know a few of them that just plain can't f'in sail worth a damn. Where do you draw the line?

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Robin one little flaw in that is that a sailmaker will sail with a client or potential client as a quid pro quo to sell more sails and thus earn a commission. So is that sailmaker sailing for the money or isn't he/she?

Then you have a whole bunch of "salemakers" who don't know the pointy end of sissors but are called sailmakers. I know a few of them that just plain can't f'in sail worth a damn. Where do you draw the line?

As I said I would be in favor of a simple rule. I would draw the line at actual payment to sail not customer care, regardless of form. I want to have my sailmaker on my boat from time to time to help me and my team learn or get better or to evaluate the state of the sails. I know it is (if they are smart) part of his business model. He/she should not be a "pro" for this activity alone. However, if I pay him/her to be my tactician at a regatta then its a pro even if we are dead last. Same can be said of a rigger, or sailing software salesman or any number of tradesmen in the field.

 

Robin

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What we used to get in the shamateur days was a "sailmaker" whose job was to race on customers boats, and only sailed on customers boats when they'd paid, shall we say, a very undiscounted price for the sails.

So in your simple rule would that be an amateur or a professional?

 

The thing about the ISAF code that so many object to is, because of the historical abuses, it is indeed fundamentally a strict follow the money rule. Its only interested in money. If you're paid to be in the boat industry you're a pro. It has absolutely nothing to do with talent. After all, if it were, you'd be defining world class sailors who are genuine amateurs as professionals... And lets face it, that was the foundation of all the Corinthian stuff. The nobs didn't want to have to mix with ordinary working blokes who happened to be better seaman than they were.

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The "corinthian days" are largely a fiction, except in the smaller boats. Wealthy owners of large yachts have always required some "working class" blokes with technical knowlege to help sail them without destroying equipment or killing someone.

And I might point out, nobody becomes a "rockstar" sailor from being in the industry. It's the reverse... a proficient sailor becomes employed in the industry after already being a good sailor. They simply like messing around with boats as a profession, or their education and skills suits being in the industry better than being an accountant or lawyer or whatever. Aside from a few peep who started a business and oversaw tremendous growth into an international company, nobody is getting wealthy in the industry... at least as working stiffs.

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Just out of curiosity, if I get paid a couple thousand a year to clean a boat's bottom, and then race on said boat, would I technically be Cat 1 or Cat 3?

 

This is purely out of curiosity, and being a hack sailor really doesn't factor in.

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Just cleaning the bottom should be Cat 1. If you were paid to do an expert racing finish on the bottom, that's probably a Cat 3.

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Just out of curiosity, if I get paid a couple thousand a year to clean a boat's bottom, and then race on said boat, would I technically be Cat 1 or Cat 3?

This is purely out of curiosity, and being a hack sailor really doesn't factor in.

Is the boat dry sailed?

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Just out of curiosity, if I get paid a couple thousand a year to clean a boat's bottom, and then race on said boat, would I technically be Cat 1 or Cat 3?

This is purely out of curiosity, and being a hack sailor really doesn't factor in.

Is the boat dry sailed?
No, but I can see where you're going with that. I was unfairly a Cat 3 years ago, but honestly wasn't sure this time. I figured I'd ask as long as we were discussing the stupidity of the existing system.

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I would propose a simple solution to defining pro sailors. "Are you being paid to sail in this event, or otherwise directly compensated past, present, or future for sailing in this event?" Getting caught lying would be a ten year ban from all ISAF events. Some would cheat, but only the desperate ones.

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I would propose a simple solution to defining pro sailors. "Are you being paid to sail in this event, or otherwise directly compensated past, present, or future for sailing in this event?" Getting caught lying would be a ten year ban from all ISAF events. Some would cheat, but only the desperate ones.

To be fair, the person doing the paying (owner) should receive an equal punishment.

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I would propose a simple solution to defining pro sailors. "Are you being paid to sail in this event, or otherwise directly compensated past, present, or future for sailing in this event?" Getting caught lying would be a ten year ban from all ISAF events. Some would cheat, but only the desperate ones.

To be fair, the person doing the paying (owner) should receive an equal punishment.

I completely agree. Forgot that part.

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The system sucks because it wrongly classifies me.

I am a human being, not some theoretical construct

I fix and maintain sailing toys. Lots of my customers are my sailing buddies .

As I am the only sailboat repairman within fifty miles, most of the boats in any contest at my club are boats that I have helped maintain.

I have never been paid to race. I have not been paid in any way shape or form to be on any boat at any time to do anything having to do with competing in a contest.

I am especially enraged by the ISAF classification system because it labels me as a potential cheater who should be restricted from having a chance to act out.

The fact is the classification system is supposed to stop OWNERS from purchasing talent

Because ISAF can't figure out how to force owners to be sportsmanlike ....( If we say no paying teammates you can't do it )

ISAF decided to classify everybody in the boat business as a pro sailor

This human being is NOT a sailor whose racing talents are for hire!!

Because the rule screws me, one very real person, I find the rule and those who tolerate its use to be intolerable

And

There are others like me being disparaged by the disgusting rule and the disgusting people who tolerate its use

Is that clear enough

What are the exact races you are excluded from?

 

Sailboat races where I would be classified as a pro. I am not a good enough sailor for any team to waste any of its limited pro member slots but I am damn fine rail meat, never drop beers on their way from the cooler, am a master at keeping lines untangled, and, with proper supervision, can pull most control cordage correctly

Gouv - that is a generalized cop-out. Which races specifically have you needed to bow out of?

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I get paid $100 to move a boat from one end of the river to the other for maintenance work.

I get paid $1000 to move a boat from one end of the river to the other for maintenance work AND I just so happen to be invited to race.

These kinds of things are very hard to police.

Kind of like buying a $3000 sail for $6000 and having a lot of very skilled sailors from the loft randomly show up :rolleyes:

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There are and always will be clubs and classes that want to control professionals, as well as ones that don't. This proposal moves the effort and angst of running a classification scheme from ISAF into the laps of the (mostly) unpaid volunteers running clubs and classes. Thanks a bunch, ISAF Executive Committee.

I have to say that in my eyes it really only affects classes that have relatively rich owners with well paid for class associations.

 

*edit* I replied before I read the rest of the thread. I say that because the system to me is about cost control. Not about winning races.

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The smart classes who want some sort of system to identify paid sailors will get together and figure it out on their own. They are best served by keeping ISAF out of the equation.

Interesting history but your conclusion is simply an assertion.

 

I don't think anyone thinks the sport would collapse without the ISAF system. What will happen is that classes that want to will continue to control professionals, inconsistently and with more likelihood of perceived favouritism/nepotism and sailors who don't want those accusations made of them will be less likely to volunteer as class officers.

 

First, let's identify.

 

1) Farr 40 - relies extensively on the system but disliked by vast majority of competitors

2) Melges 32 - relies extensively on the system but disliked by vast majority of competitors

3) Melges 24 - only used for Corinthian Class, roundly disliked by fleet

4) J/70 - only used for Corinthian Class, fleet not really sure yet

5) Farr 30 - really only used for one event per year

6) J/105 - used to keep all pros off boat

 

What other classes are using the system?

RC44.

 

Widely gamed. Especially with rule changed to accommodate extra pro's a few years ago by allowing the boat captain to be a "1".

 

Ostensibly in the rule for cost control but reallistically it makes little difference as "amateur" spots are filled by the up and coming under 24's who are allowed 100 days a year or something like that. HAHA. Policing of that doesn't happen...

 

It is very true at the grand prix level that a good amateur that can commit to a program well is more "valuable" than a pro to some extents.

 

To be fair to the class they are fairly pragmatic about the situation and the rule and accommodations are made, especially for drivers when the owners can't make it.

 

Here you go for a quick thought. Require all events that think they need a classification system to sign up a database with a list of entrants names and the number of sailing days in their event. If a sailor crosses a certain threshold of days in that database they are "semi-pro". If they cross a higher level then they are a full pro. 60-80 days a year for a semi pro. 120+ a year for a pro. Easy to maintain as all entrants would immediately be added to the list and there is no subjectivity.

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I get paid $100 to move a boat from one end of the river to the other for maintenance work.

I get paid $1000 to move a boat from one end of the river to the other for maintenance work AND I just so happen to be invited to race.

These kinds of things are very hard to police.

Kind of like buying a $3000 sail for $6000 and having a lot of very skilled sailors from the loft randomly show up :rolleyes:

I think what was once true about sail making no longer is that much anymore. It is a dying art that is mostly practiced in the middle of the desert by meth heads and in sri lanka by cheap labour.

 

The people who you think of now as sail makers are just salesmen.

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The system sucks because it wrongly classifies me.

I am a human being, not some theoretical construct

I fix and maintain sailing toys. Lots of my customers are my sailing buddies .

As I am the only sailboat repairman within fifty miles, most of the boats in any contest at my club are boats that I have helped maintain.

I have never been paid to race. I have not been paid in any way shape or form to be on any boat at any time to do anything having to do with competing in a contest.

I am especially enraged by the ISAF classification system because it labels me as a potential cheater who should be restricted from having a chance to act out.

The fact is the classification system is supposed to stop OWNERS from purchasing talent

Because ISAF can't figure out how to force owners to be sportsmanlike ....( If we say no paying teammates you can't do it )

ISAF decided to classify everybody in the boat business as a pro sailor

This human being is NOT a sailor whose racing talents are for hire!!

Because the rule screws me, one very real person, I find the rule and those who tolerate its use to be intolerable

And

There are others like me being disparaged by the disgusting rule and the disgusting people who tolerate its use

Is that clear enough

What are the exact races you are excluded from?

 

Sailboat races where I would be classified as a pro. I am not a good enough sailor for any team to waste any of its limited pro member slots but I am damn fine rail meat, never drop beers on their way from the cooler, am a master at keeping lines untangled, and, with proper supervision, can pull most control cordage correctly

Sounds like they didn't want to waste any of their amateur slots on you either......

 

 

 

I would propose a simple solution to defining pro sailors. "Are you being paid to sail in this event, or otherwise directly compensated past, present, or future for sailing in this event?" Getting caught lying would be a ten year ban from all ISAF events. Some would cheat, but only the desperate ones.

To be fair, the person doing the paying (owner) should receive an equal punishment.

THIS.

 

Would stop the gaming of the current rule dead in the water.

 

Not that it makes the actual rule any better in itself.

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Why would they be Cat 1 and a non-sailing sailmaker or boatbuilder be Cat 3 if the intent of the system is to lower the bar to enable average Joe boat owner to be competitive?

That's never the intent. The intent of restricting pros on boats is cost control.

 

Consider the decline and fall of the Solent J24 fleet, which at one time had 50-60 boats for major events and the best keelboat racing in the UK. People at the stop of the fleet were all spending at a similar level. Then, a number of sailmakers decide it would be a good idea to join the fleet to promote their businesses. The entire crew were sailmakers who were paid to show owners on other boats how to tune their sails (i.e. paid to race). Also the boats would be pursued by RIBS loaded up with a quiver of sails optimised to specific conditions. Result, J24 owners didn't want to pay to compete with that, walked away in droves and the fleet collapsed in two years flat, never to return.

 

Death of the UK M24 fleet was a similar story. Arguably also, the bare survival of the Solent Dragon fleet.

 

Owners want to compete with owners who are spending at roughly the level they are prepared to spend. If you run a class that's big enough and prominent enough to attract the attention of people willing and able to spend their way to the podium, somehow you've got to control that to keep other owners in the game. Control over use of pros is one of the techniques available.

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There is very little point in trying to have a centralised database for "Pros" in a sport as loosely governed as sailing.

The default position has to be open slather. I.E. anyone can participate, paid or not.

It should then be up to the classes/ fleets/ event organisers to add restrictions as appropriate.

 

My view is that the only way to have a reasonable prospect of enforcing restrictions is to base them on and Owner or Skipper Declaration that can then be enforced by rule 69.

The declaration could be something like this...

 

"The total number of people who have directly or indirectly received a financial benefit for sailing on this boat in this regatta is not more than.[insert allowed number]"

 

If the Owners/Skippers are facing disqualification or banning from future participation, they may be less likely to game the rule.

 

In real life the declaration may be more complicated to allow for things such as reimbursement of expenses, etc, but this again can be a case by case call, which means you do not need "one size fits all" rules..

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There is very little point in trying to have a centralised database for "Pros" in a sport as loosely governed as sailing.

The default position has to be open slather. I.E. anyone can participate, paid or not.

It should then be up to the classes/ fleets/ event organisers to add restrictions as appropriate.

But that is the existing situation.

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I <like> sailing against pros, or the best sailors...

 

I don't think <any> system can be cheat-proof...

 

I would agree with just getting rid of the classification system...

 

If some classes get loaded up with expensive pros,

and people don't want to compete with them,

they will eventually vote with their feet,

and compete in classes that they want to...

 

It also depends on why people race...

some people need to feel like they have to have a chance to win,

and will spend mega-bucks to do it...

Other people just want to learn and have fun...

 

Every choice of what class to race in includes a budgetary component...

 

If you <need> 3 pros on your boat in order to compete at the level you want to,

you just include that in the budget...

 

I chose a small boat, because that is what I could afford,

and the budget didn't have to include pros...

 

If getting rid of the classification systems ends up being the death of some classes,

then the classes, the owners, and the pros should give the reasons some careful thought...

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I <like> sailing against pros, or the best sailors...

Then choose a class that allows them. Most do. Why do you want to impose your preference on all classes?

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There are and always will be clubs and classes that want to control professionals, as well as ones that don't. This proposal moves the effort and angst of running a classification scheme from ISAF into the laps of the (mostly) unpaid volunteers running clubs and classes. Thanks a bunch, ISAF Executive Committee.

I have to say that in my eyes it really only affects classes that have relatively rich owners with well paid for class associations.

 

*edit* I replied before I read the rest of the thread. I say that because the system to me is about cost control. Not about winning races.

 

I can read with interest what is the US aspect (and UK's) which has developed over a number of years and I can understand it is debatable, after all if the owner has been smart enough to make a lot of money and the pro has been smart enough to singlehandedly create value in his name, that's life....

The real danger is in Europe.

I would find unfair to race against young guns who have only been sailing from the optimist to the Olympic classes, have hardly studied and never worked and are supplied a full pro boat, while being paid a salary by some state company or the armies or even worse by the sailing federation.

This is the case in the J80's and the reason why I put paid to any idea of getting into a boat (class) I was attracted to.

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Here you go for a quick thought. Require all events that think they need a classification system to sign up a database with a list of entrants names and the number of sailing days in their event. If a sailor crosses a certain threshold of days in that database they are "semi-pro". If they cross a higher level then they are a full pro. 60-80 days a year for a semi pro. 120+ a year for a pro. Easy to maintain as all entrants would immediately be added to the list and there is no subjectivity.

And sailing days in a class full of pros that doesn't feel the need to use the classification system - Americas Cup for example - wouldn't count towards the total... And why would you not want to count days spent training. A team of sailors doing endless two boat tuning week in week out certainly raise the bar far above what a team of people with day jobs can manage even if they don't do that many events.

 

Its fairly hilarious really, all these internet experts who think that they can find a simple solution in a 5 minute post when one has eluded people with much time and experience who have been involved in the problem for years.

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Its fairly hilarious really, all these internet experts who think that they can find a simple solution in a 5 minute post when one has eluded people with much time and experience who have been involved in the problem for years.

 

Didn't the 'people with much time and experience who have been involved in the problem for years' just propose to get rid of the system? If that's their solution, who the fuck are you to dispute it?

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At least you proved you like running your mouth without having ever read it. End when did I claim it was easy? What I said was that there was more likelihood of the smart folks in class management coming up with a workable solution than the lumbering ISAF fixing the problem.

 

 

 

If the ISAF system is as heavily disliked as you claim - why haven't any of those classes (most with pro class management) come up with their own solution that you claim is so easy?

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They are not proposing "get rid of the system". They are proposing "get rid of our responsibility".

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They are not proposing "get rid of the system". They are proposing "get rid of our responsibility".

 

That's not how I read it. They are not offering to hand off the administration of the database; they are proposing to kill it.

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