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LPB Aerial Imagery

Farr 280 hits UK

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It's telling that all the shots of this boat going downwind are taken with it 15 degrees above its vmg angle just to make the thing look sporty.

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It's telling that all the shots of this boat going downwind are taken with it 15 degrees above its vmg angle just to make the thing look sporty.

....in ten knots of wind when they had the helicopter booked.

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It's telling that all the shots of this boat going downwind are taken with it 15 degrees above its vmg angle just to make the thing look sporty.

 

So tell us what its optimum VMG angle should have been.....

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It's telling that all the shots of this boat going downwind are taken with it 15 degrees above its vmg angle just to make the thing look sporty.

 

So tell us what its optimum VMG angle should have been.....

 

About 15 degrees lower...

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LH - I'm not sure what you are basing your comments on. There are a variety of angles shown in the footage and the breeze is not in planing conditions for that boat or the C&C 30 for that matter.

 

I've sailed both and neither pop in 10-13 knots and both require the boat to be up on its chine if you don't want the boat to stick to the water.

 

Total crew weight is also a consideration. Even the MC 38 sticks to the water in the light if you put too many folks on it.

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LH - I'm not sure what you are basing your comments on. There are a variety of angles shown in the footage and the breeze is not in planing conditions for that boat or the C&C 30 for that matter.

 

I've sailed both and neither pop in 10-13 knots and both require the boat to be up on its chine if you don't want the boat to stick to the water.

 

Total crew weight is also a consideration. Even the MC 38 sticks to the water in the light if you put too many folks on it.

Next left hook will tell us the MC is also a fucked up design. The naval architecture community really should consult him first.

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LH - I'm not sure what you are basing your comments on. There are a variety of angles shown in the footage and the breeze is not in planing conditions for that boat or the C&C 30 for that matter.

 

I've sailed both and neither pop in 10-13 knots and both require the boat to be up on its chine if you don't want the boat to stick to the water.

 

Right! I'm just miffed that marketers insist on showling the boat looking "sexy" at the expense of realism. .

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no boat looks sexy in brown, murky water... Should have shot the vid in Porto Cervo, or Key West! It does look pretty nice though. But not as nice as a Melges32. Or that new C&C30 thing.

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I saw that one bimbling around on Sunday before the Winter Series start. In about 10-12 kts of wind looked pretty happy heading upwind, sitting on the chine. Downwind it looked pretty decent, sailing relatively fast and seeming to be fairly happy with going relatively deep. The Solent is a particularly shitty colour at the moment as there is dredging going on in Southampton Water.

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Express Racer, sailed the 280 in 8 building to 10-13. As the breeze built the Farr rep shortened the headstay and tightened the rig up and the easily hit the polars for the wind speed. The boat has a solid feel when it sits on her chine going upwind. I really like the systems on this boat, they speak to my inner MacGyver (TV character that could disarm a warhead with his pocket knife, dental floss and a toothbrush). The boat is fast to accelerate and decelerate which is a small boat feel. This boat will reward handsomely the crew that cross-sheets the jib going upwind.

 

Downwind the boat scooted along but one must keep the boat up on its chine or it sticks to the water. The rep showed how proper crew position really influences performance downwind. Boat was moving at mid 8's sailing VMG angles, I do wish we had a little more breeze to get the boat popped on plane.

 

The C&C 30 was sailed in11 building to 20+. This boat has a more big boat feel. Most of this effect comes from the higher freeboard. Rig adjustments are done with a screw driver and wrench. I sailed the boat upwind in the big breeze and it the boat stayed near its polars through the building chop and went back up to speed by pressing on the jib slightly.

 

The downwind ride was something. In displacement mode keeping the boat on its leeward chine is important. The boat pops onto a plane around 15 knots. When the boat gets ready to pop her nose drops and when it starts rising the boat rapidly accelerates. We saw 20.5 knots of boat speed sailing angles between 150-155 degrees.

 

Both boats are quality builds. I have raced on custom boats from MORC 25 footers to TP 52's, the 280 is the closest I will ever be able to affording a custom quality boat. Premier creates jigs (think this is the term) for pre-bending the foam before it is put in the build mould. Farr over sees the whole build process and specs all laminate schedules and resin amounts. Premier actually pre- measures the amount of resin to be used in each part.

 

So the big finish,

 

Both are great boats.

 

I prefer the 280. I enjoy adjusting boats to make them go fast, in fact it is the learning how the boat communicates is what I find most interesting about racing.

 

I'm hopeful that as more people test sail the 280 they will see what I do in the boat.

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I sailed both boats with Gone and concur with most of his post above. The 280 is a very well built boat, better, I think, than the C&C. That's not to say that the C&C is badly built; just that the 280 has an edge in that regard. The 280 has many clever systems for adjusting the rig (something Gone excels at) and looks like it should be a fast boat if sailed well. The problem is that the 280 has not performed well with its current rating, and more significantly, has not been able to get in front of a Farr 30 consistently, a boat that the 280 owes time to and which Farr claimed early on that the 280 would beat handily. Farr said that the 280 was inspired by the 30 to be a faster, modern take on that design. Perhaps it could be faster if it was sailed better with a well-tuned rig, but that has not been the case this summer, other than at Charleston, even with a crew of pros on board. We thought the boat had speed potential that has not been realized yet. That has been a problem. Those looking for a boat like this have been put off by its lackluster performance. As far as I know, Farr has not sold a single a copy in North America. The design will not perform well in a handicap fleet and needs to race OD which appears unlikely in NA.

 

The C&C has some of the same problems, but I thought it was a faster boat than the 280 (two feet longer, after all), and was, in any event, a more compelling boat to sail. True, the conditions we sailed in favored the C&C, but boat speed of 20 plus downwind in control makes a favorable impression, even if the speedo is goosed a bit to thrill prospective buyers. I also preferred the "feel" and extra length of the C&C. The 280 felt underpowered.

 

The C&C does not have is a record against the F 30, the 280 or any other design. What the C&C has that the 280 doesn't is a number of individuals and dealers in NA that like the boat well enough to put money down and take a chance on its development into a OD class.

 

I am interested in buying one of these boats, but only if I can sail it in a OD fleet. Right now the prospects for that happening to the 280 look bleak whereas the C&C looks like it has a shot.

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The Farr looks a great deal of fun but I think a lot of our American cousins would be surprised to learn that Farr as a brand no longer carries the kudos in Europe that it once did. Where as it seems that in other parts of the world, many sailors are content to kneel at the feet of Sir Bruce and take a wet one, the name has been put to too many distinctly average boats here.

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I would like to respond to a few comments in Yard Dog's post. The Farr 280 has, in fact, done well under rating racing. It won a major event in Charleston Race Week 2014 with only 5 hours of sailing under its belt.

 

You can see how the competition has done at Jamestown Yacht Club’s Tuesday Night race results of 4,7,8,8,5,7,7 http://www.jyc.org/RaceRslts/2014/Race070814.html compared to the Farr 280's AYC Wednesday Night record of 3,2,2,2,2 losing only to a GP 42.

 

There are really only two Farr 30's the Farr 280 has had trouble with in its infancy – two of the best one’s in the world being raced by top sailors. Ramrod and Seabiscuit, which got 3rd and 4th at the 2013 Worlds, and Ramrod went into the last race tied for 1st. This will be resolved as soon as we have boats lined up together in December 2014.

 

The Farr 280 now has a rating of 54 on the Chesapeake. The first Italian boat is doing very well in ORC, winning many races and events. We now have 5 boats out sailing, compared to the competition’s 2 boats. We have boats sailing in Dubai, Italy, the UK and the US with the intention of building a strong international class that will be sustainable over a long period of time. There’s a weight variance of only 2.5kg between boats 1-5, creating what will be one of the world’s closet OD.

 

It’s also worth noting that there are only two independent owners of the competition. The rest of the orders are for dealer boats. The Farr 280 is opening up a dealer network, as well. They’re putting money down as well to insure the success.

 

As you are cheering about the speeds of both boats, I’d recommend looking at the GPS speeds and not the "goosed" speed through the water you are being shown. On every Farr 280 test sail, we prove our speed is real by having the GPS speed underneath.

 

Finally, I would like to invite Yard Dog and anyone else back out on the water to test sail the Farr 280 in better wind conditions in Annapolis or in the many other locations we have boats already. Or, order a boat soon to join our class of 7 boats at Key West Race Week 2015!

 

Videos, photos, and class rules can all be found at: www.farr280.com

 

 

 

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Thanks for the info Ian, and for posting it in your own name.

 

You are certainly ahead of the CC30 in your development of the boat, but to us, both boats seem pretty badass and there is certainly room in the market for both. Remember when there were 40 Farr 40s and 40 Farr 30s on the line in Miami? There is no reason in the world that the CC30 and F280 should not be the new names in that same game.

 

Just smaller, faster, younger, and cooler.

 

And I still haven't sailed on either of the fucking things!

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Ian,

 

I think you know I meant no disrespect to you or Farr, nor was I slamming the 280. There is a lot to like about the boat, and you, too, for that matter. The 280, however, suffers from an image problem, and I am not alone in thinking so. True, most of the sold C&Cs are dealer boats, but they are still firm North American orders that have the potential to be sold to owners who can develop a OD class relatively quickly. I have not heard of any sales of the 280 in NA, and the chance for a OD class here are at best a ways off in the future. I applaud your effort to develop a dealer network, but you have had a boat out there for a whole season now and C&C is way ahead of you in that regard; and they are a name recently resurrected from the dead starting from a point less than zero. They have a good boat and they are outcompeting you. That's just my opinion, but I am an interested party and I have been paying attention.

 

Otherwise I stand by my post.

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My one question is way would you buy either when you can buy a proven faster design in a Melges 32? Try to get some type of a Corinthian class going? Used 32's are getting cheap. Just asking.

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My one question is way would you buy either when you can buy a proven faster design in a Melges 32? Try to get some type of a Corinthian class going? Used 32's are getting cheap. Just asking.

I kind of a agree but it's a good job some people see it differently, otherwise there would be no Impalas, Melges, J24s, Sigmas... etc etc for the rest of us to sail in.

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Being of the old school, and trying to keep weight down aloft, why do both of these machines have Aluminum Spreaders ?

Is there an advantage other than cost ? ( The cost of Carbon Spreaders should be an insignificant % beyond the cost of the boat )

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Being of the old school, and trying to keep weight down aloft, why do both of these machines have Aluminum Spreaders ?

Is there an advantage other than cost ? ( The cost of Carbon Spreaders should be an insignificant % beyond the cost of the boat )

Typically it is a cost reason. Carbon spreaders are really freaking expensive. Usually at this size range the weight savings aren't enough to justify the added cost. Larger spars, larger loads, larger weight savings/dollar. At this range it adds complication and cost for not a big difference. Something like upgrading the standing rigging has a much bigger impact. Kind of like carbon battens in a sail this size. High cost, minimal benefit. Very different on a 50 footer.

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I would like to respond to a few comments in Yard Dog's post. The Farr 280 has, in fact, done well under rating racing. It won a major event in Charleston Race Week 2014 with only 5 hours of sailing under its belt.

 

You can see how the competition has done at Jamestown Yacht Club’s Tuesday Night race results of 4,7,8,8,5,7,7 http://www.jyc.org/RaceRslts/2014/Race070814.html compared to the Farr 280's AYC Wednesday Night record of 3,2,2,2,2 losing only to a GP 42.

 

There are really only two Farr 30's the Farr 280 has had trouble with in its infancy – two of the best one’s in the world being raced by top sailors. Ramrod and Seabiscuit, which got 3rd and 4th at the 2013 Worlds, and Ramrod went into the last race tied for 1st. This will be resolved as soon as we have boats lined up together in December 2014.

 

The Farr 280 now has a rating of 54 on the Chesapeake. The first Italian boat is doing very well in ORC, winning many races and events. We now have 5 boats out sailing, compared to the competition’s 2 boats. We have boats sailing in Dubai, Italy, the UK and the US with the intention of building a strong international class that will be sustainable over a long period of time. There’s a weight variance of only 2.5kg between boats 1-5, creating what will be one of the world’s closet OD.

 

It’s also worth noting that there are only two independent owners of the competition. The rest of the orders are for dealer boats. The Farr 280 is opening up a dealer network, as well. They’re putting money down as well to insure the success.

 

As you are cheering about the speeds of both boats, I’d recommend looking at the GPS speeds and not the "goosed" speed through the water you are being shown. On every Farr 280 test sail, we prove our speed is real by having the GPS speed underneath.

 

Finally, I would like to invite Yard Dog and anyone else back out on the water to test sail the Farr 280 in better wind conditions in Annapolis or in the many other locations we have boats already. Or, order a boat soon to join our class of 7 boats at Key West Race Week 2015!

 

Videos, photos, and class rules can all be found at: www.farr280.com

 

Ian,

 

I hope the Farr 280 gets up to speed with enough time on the water. - Now to my beef: If you want to boast about your scoreline in wed night races (while comparing to the C&C) you should probably mention that the results you are quoting for the 280 is in a PHRF class with typically 2-4 boats racing on any given Wed night while the C&C obviously sails in a bigger fleet.

 

Claiming that the spedo on the C&C has been tweaked to impress peeps is a big claim - unless you have proof. And trying to sell boats with a claim like that is not a good marketing move.........

 

The two boats are certainly different with a different characteristics - the 280 being a kitted out harbor racer and the C&C being a little more "traditional" but out of the box being Cat 2 compliant.

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I would like to respond to a few comments in Yard Dog's post. The Farr 280 has, in fact, done well under rating racing. It won a major event in Charleston Race Week 2014 with only 5 hours of sailing under its belt.

 

You can see how the competition has done at Jamestown Yacht Club’s Tuesday Night race results of 4,7,8,8,5,7,7 http://www.jyc.org/RaceRslts/2014/Race070814.html compared to the Farr 280's AYC Wednesday Night record of 3,2,2,2,2 losing only to a GP 42.

 

There are really only two Farr 30's the Farr 280 has had trouble with in its infancy – two of the best one’s in the world being raced by top sailors. Ramrod and Seabiscuit, which got 3rd and 4th at the 2013 Worlds, and Ramrod went into the last race tied for 1st. This will be resolved as soon as we have boats lined up together in December 2014.

 

The Farr 280 now has a rating of 54 on the Chesapeake. The first Italian boat is doing very well in ORC, winning many races and events. We now have 5 boats out sailing, compared to the competition’s 2 boats. We have boats sailing in Dubai, Italy, the UK and the US with the intention of building a strong international class that will be sustainable over a long period of time. There’s a weight variance of only 2.5kg between boats 1-5, creating what will be one of the world’s closet OD.

 

It’s also worth noting that there are only two independent owners of the competition. The rest of the orders are for dealer boats. The Farr 280 is opening up a dealer network, as well. They’re putting money down as well to insure the success.

 

As you are cheering about the speeds of both boats, I’d recommend looking at the GPS speeds and not the "goosed" speed through the water you are being shown. On every Farr 280 test sail, we prove our speed is real by having the GPS speed underneath.

 

Finally, I would like to invite Yard Dog and anyone else back out on the water to test sail the Farr 280 in better wind conditions in Annapolis or in the many other locations we have boats already. Or, order a boat soon to join our class of 7 boats at Key West Race Week 2015!

 

Videos, photos, and class rules can all be found at: www.farr280.com

 

 

There certainly is a lot of fluff written in this piece as to be expected while trying to push your boat.

 

There is no question you won Charleston with a boat full of people including Larson and Beck and others. To not win that class would be really embarrassing with the boat and the level of talent on board. Not to mention, look at the other boats in that class, nothing compares, all are much heavier, and struggled against the boat in the light. Toting that you won a major regatta is pretty silly at this point. Sure you won, but I wouldn't be boasting so much over it. I could bring a TP52 and sail against slower boats and say the same thing while paying my whole crew as well.

 

It is pretty easy to see why everyone is comparing the 280 to the 30. Even you all did in this article.

 

http://www.thedailysail.com/inshore/14/66062/0/pat-shaughnessy-on-the-farr-280-one-design

 

"The Farr 280 rig and sails were sized carefully to provide excellent all-around performance. Upwind sail area/displacement is 10% higher than the Farr 30, yet the righting moment is high enough to provide similar overall tenderness. Even with a broader hull shape, the upwind sail area/wetted surface ratio is the same as the Farr 30, while the downwind sail area/displacement is 40% higher than the Farr 30."

 

With all this information now it rates the same on the Bay as the Farr 30? Seems pretty interesting to me as by the numbers you provide in the quote it shouldn't.

 

Even with this new rating at this point I wouldn't keep saying we only got beat by the GP42 in PHRF. Looking at the Wednesday Night Races you actually competed in versus the F30 it was beat in every race boat for boat. To counter this point you state they are top tier programs in SeaBiscuit and Ramrod. No one would disagree with you there, however, you also have plenty of talent on board for these races as well, so it is almost a mute point. Even as you put it that there were only two that you struggled with I see a different story considering all the other F30s and the numbers from their races. In four of the five races the 280 competed in, the delta between the other F30s and the 230 were around a minute behind. That is not to shabby for boats that aren't as sorted as the others. Also, for a spirt boat versus a boat using the pole, I think you could gain that minute back if F30 were sprits instead. So in other words, you have a boat that would be around Mid Fleet against the F30 in the same regatta boat for boat sailing a mixed fleet of the two. For the price, and wanting to make a new boat, I really don't consider this a winning design. Could have just stuck a sprit on the F30 and revamped it for less money than buying this new boat in my opinion.

 

Race 1 Race 2 Race 3 Race 4 Race 5

Ramrod 19:04:45 Ramrod 19:11:08 Ramrod 19:06:48 Ramrod 19:06:51 Ramrod 18:59:05

SeaBiscuit 19:05:17 Moxie 19:11:44 Farr280 19:11:02 Farr280 19:07:31 SeaBiscuit 19:00:38

Farr280 19:05:53 Farr280 19:12:31 Mach 5 19:13:51 Mach 5 19:08:14 Farr280 19:04:08

Mach 5 19:06:50 Mach 5 19:12:44 Blockade 19:24:00 Moxie 19:09:34 Moxie 19:05:07

Blockade 19:13:19 Downhill 19:13:34 Downhill 19:10:23 Mach 5 19:05:20

Blockade 19:17:46 Blockade 19:06:30

 

 

I also find it a low class move to state that all the "competition" are dealer boats. Isn't your boat in Annapolis a dealer boat? isn't the one in Dubai owned by Premier which is almost the same thing. Isn't the one in the UK another dealer situation for Europe with all the promo videos coming out. Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems about the same.

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My one question is way would you buy either when you can buy a proven faster design in a Melges 32? Try to get some type of a Corinthian class going? Used 32's are getting cheap. Just asking.

I kind of a agree but it's a good job some people see it differently, otherwise there would be no Impalas, Melges, J24s, Sigmas... etc etc for the rest of us to sail in.

At least for Yard Dog and I, the crew requirement is 7 +\- on the Melges. We have been sailing together for a decade and reducing crew numbers is appealing from a program management standpoint. Neither one of us has the time to spend drumming up crew, we were up to 10/11 on an earlier boat.

 

The 280 is more appealing at this point as Ian's current thinking is optimum crew weight is 500 kgs. And as our crew list tends to have folks on the high side of 91 kgs each this works to our advantage. Granted mark roundings will be busy but this is why we play the game right?

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Both boats are just slightly different ways to have the same sort of fun. The gamble with both right now is can either sell enough to make a big enough fleet to have 8 or so decent one design regattas a year. Doubtful that either boat is going to have multiple local fleets of 8-10 boats except in the big sailing centers in the US, meaning Newport, Annapolis and San Fran. Some other markets might get 2 or 3 boats.

 

Just look around at J70 and Melges 20. How many local fleets are there of size. Why would either of these boats surpass that?

 

So whoever wants to go traveling one design and local PHRF just for fun, either boat will be fun. I don't see a huge difference in either boat. Besides, if you want to go really fast buy a cat.

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Ian,

 

As results seem to matter in this discussion, please post the results from the Italian boat. I had my hands on the results from the Italian ORC championship but didn't save the link and I don't read Italian so I have no memory of how I got to them.

 

To lend further clarity to the performance discussion it would be helpful to include the wind conditions for the races posted.

 

What I like about ORC is it's a measurement rule without the IRC fudge factor IIRC. The 280 did quite well against a mixed fleet in the results I saw.

 

We, the collective SA community, can navel gaze endlessly at results of any individual race results. What was the level of competition? What were the conditions like? Etc.

 

To me it is the overall body of work that matters. As mentioned by others, there are some glaring issues that need to be addressed in the coming months.

 

Is the Italian boat still using your Quantum sails? If so, for how many events? What are they using now if not? Between what events did the switch happen, if it did?

 

Ian you are obviously a talented and experienced sailor, but based on what I saw during our test sail, I would not put North sails on my boat.

 

I'm expecting that this market segment will gain a great deal of clarity by Charleston this spring, I sincerely hope the 280 defines this segment in both high levels of production quality and on the water performance.

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We have a F280, Mumm 30 and Melges 32 and the Farr 11s in Dubai (see results: http://results.dosc.ae/DIV115os.html )...so far only M32 has not come out to play this year....

 

Can anyone give a relative performance of a M32 vs Mumm 32 under IRC? The 11s being my boat, will always be last as the rating is somewhat challenging....

 

Appreciate the feedback....

 

MKF

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us7070 - maybe you could then give another recommendation on how to score these different boats when they are racing against one another.

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<p>I don't know about Americaland, but in the UK, the most successful One-Designs, historically, have usually either been rather conservative or rather small. Think J109, Sigma 38, Sigma 33, Sonata, Impala. The exceptions, to date, have been the Farrs, so perhaps they know what they're doing however the far more conservative J88 is already building a fleet at a not disimiliar price point. There is a feeling, however, that J-boats could put a stick in a turd and it would sell in Hamble, so long as it had a J in the name.</p>

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Both boats are just slightly different ways to have the same sort of fun. The gamble with both right now is can either sell enough to make a big enough fleet to have 8 or so decent one design regattas a year. Doubtful that either boat is going to have multiple local fleets of 8-10 boats except in the big sailing centers in the US, meaning Newport, Annapolis and San Fran. Some other markets might get 2 or 3 boats.

 

 

 

Chicago has more big boat one-design fleets than any of those places.

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MKF, Please let us know how your fleet finishes on the line, forgetting ratings .

How does your 11s do upwind and downwind as far as angles and speeding light , medium, and heavy

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<p>I don't know about Americaland, but in the UK, the most successful One-Designs, historically, have usually either been rather conservative or rather small. Think J109, Sigma 38, Sigma 33, Sonata, Impala. The exceptions, to date, have been the Farrs, so perhaps they know what they're doing however the far more conservative J88 is already building a fleet at a not disimiliar price point. There is a feeling, however, that J-boats could put a stick in a turd and it would sell in Hamble, so long as it had a J in the name.</p>

Same basic price.......way different animals.

 

Think mini van vs Audi S4

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<p>I don't know about Americaland, but in the UK, the most successful One-Designs, historically, have usually either been rather conservative or rather small. Think J109, Sigma 38, Sigma 33, Sonata, Impala. The exceptions, to date, have been the Farrs, so perhaps they know what they're doing however the far more conservative J88 is already building a fleet at a not disimiliar price point. There is a feeling, however, that J-boats could put a stick in a turd and it would sell in Hamble, so long as it had a J in the name.</p>

Same basic price.......way different animals.

 

Think mini van vs Audi S4

Yes indeed. My point is that this fact may not be in the Farr's favour when it comes to establishing an OD fleet here.

 

The early adopters in UK do not have a track record of going for the more extreme option.

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us7070 - maybe you could then give another recommendation on how to score these different boats when they are racing against one another.

 

yes - if you are going to race them against each other.., then you need a rating to score them.

 

but that is not how i interpreted the comments.., which seemed more about ranking the boats generally.., i.e. deciding which boat is a better boat, not deciding which boat won a particular race.

 

These boats should be raced OD.., and we should stop fooling ourselves into thinking that a rating can provide "fair" racing between them - it can't.

 

if it were to turn out that one boat consistently performed better under a particular rating rule than the other boat.., it probably tells us as much or more about the rating rule than it does about the boat!

 

M-32 is not a great boat to race under any rating - does that mean it's a bad boat?

 

Sure, I wouldn't want to race a boat that was disadvantaged under a rating rule, but I really wouldn't want to race a boat that was advantaged either - what's the point?

 

people should get together to form local syndicates, or whatever, and all buy the same boat.

 

In one of Corny Shield's books he describes how, in the 1930's, he got a group of 20-30 LIS sailors together to buy a freighter full of IOD's from Norway - that's the way to do it!

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MKF, Please let us know how your fleet finishes on the line, forgetting ratings .

How does your 11s do upwind and downwind as far as angles and speeding light , medium, and heavy

Now that we know how to sail her she beats the polars, especially in the 6 to 12 where we can negatively can't the keel down wind.

 

But she rates about 5 to 6 minutes an hour to fast, trial of 1.28 may have worked, but 1.326 with smaller sacks is just putative...

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us7070 - maybe you could then give another recommendation on how to score these different boats when they are racing against one another.

 

yes - if you are going to race them against each other.., then you need a rating to score them.

 

​These boats will race against each other, and for a some time until one or both establishes a OD class which takes time. Until then, they need a rating to race.

 

but that is not how i interpreted the comments.., which seemed more about ranking the boats generally.., i.e. deciding which boat is a better boat, not deciding which boat won a particular race.

 

The discussion is about deciding which boat is better. How they rate gives insight into their relative speed and says something about the boat even if it isn't a perfect measurement.

 

These boats should be raced OD.., and we should stop fooling ourselves into thinking that a rating can provide "fair" racing between them - it can't.

 

Yes, they should be raced OD and maybe they will be eventually. No one reading this is fooled about how well rating systems work. No one brought it up until you did.

 

if it were to turn out that one boat consistently performed better under a particular rating rule than the other boat.., it probably tells us as much or more about the rating rule than it does about the boat!

 

<<YAWN>>

 

M-32 is not a great boat to race under any rating - does that mean it's a bad boat?

 

<<ZZZZZZZZZ>>

 

Sure, I wouldn't want to race a boat that was disadvantaged under a rating rule, but I really wouldn't want to race a boat that was advantaged either - what's the point?

 

<<ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ>>

 

people should get together to form local syndicates, or whatever, and all buy the same boat.

 

Just what I need: someone else telling me what to do.

 

In one of Corny Shield's books he describes how, in the 1930's, he got a group of 20-30 LIS sailors together to buy a freighter full of IOD's from Norway - that's the way to do it!

 

I'll flag down the next Norwegian freighter I see.

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I would like to respond to a few comments in Yard Dog's post. The Farr 280 has, in fact, done well under rating racing. It won a major event in Charleston Race Week 2014 with only 5 hours of sailing under its belt.

You can see how the competition has done at Jamestown Yacht Clubs Tuesday Night race results of 4,7,8,8,5,7,7 http://www.jyc.org/RaceRslts/2014/Race070814.html compared to the Farr 280's AYC Wednesday Night record of 3,2,2,2,2 losing only to a GP 42.

There are really only two Farr 30's the Farr 280 has had trouble with in its infancy two of the best ones in the world being raced by top sailors. Ramrod and Seabiscuit, which got 3rd and 4th at the 2013 Worlds, and Ramrod went into the last race tied for 1st. This will be resolved as soon as we have boats lined up together in December 2014.

The Farr 280 now has a rating of 54 on the Chesapeake. The first Italian boat is doing very well in ORC, winning many races and events. We now have 5 boats out sailing, compared to the competitions 2 boats. We have boats sailing in Dubai, Italy, the UK and the US with the intention of building a strong international class that will be sustainable over a long period of time. Theres a weight variance of only 2.5kg between boats 1-5, creating what will be one of the worlds closet OD.

Its also worth noting that there are only two independent owners of the competition. The rest of the orders are for dealer boats. The Farr 280 is opening up a dealer network, as well. Theyre putting money down as well to insure the success.

As you are cheering about the speeds of both boats, Id recommend looking at the GPS speeds and not the "goosed" speed through the water you are being shown. On every Farr 280 test sail, we prove our speed is real by having the GPS speed underneath.

Finally, I would like to invite Yard Dog and anyone else back out on the water to test sail the Farr 280 in better wind conditions in Annapolis or in the many other locations we have boats already. Or, order a boat soon to join our class of 7 boats at Key West Race Week 2015!

Videos, photos, and class rules can all be found at: www.farr280.com

 

 

So... For four-five times the cost of a used Farr 30, I can go a little bit slower. Neat!

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In other news...

 

Sadly this is a small fleet but HPR seems to like the 280, at least in the conditions for day one.

 

The weather in Annapolis for the event was 8-10 with gusts to 12, from the national weather buoy located there.

http://www.yachtscoring.com/event_results_cumulative.cfm?eID=1058

Interesting results but I wouldn't take much from them. The C&C's aren't nearly as stacked and up to speed as the Farr 280. WOuld be nice to know course length and if course was same as some of IRC boats to run some numbers.

 

Either way, for half the price you can buy a Melges 32 or farr 30 better equipped, faster and proven under many rating systems

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In other news...

 

Sadly this is a small fleet but HPR seems to like the 280, at least in the conditions for day one.

 

The weather in Annapolis for the event was 8-10 with gusts to 12, from the national weather buoy located there.

http://www.yachtscoring.com/event_results_cumulative.cfm?eID=1058

Interesting results but I wouldn't take much from them. The C&C's aren't nearly as stacked and up to speed as the Farr 280. WOuld be nice to know course length and if course was same as some of IRC boats to run some numbers.

 

Either way, for half the price you can buy a Melges 32 or farr 30 better equipped, faster and proven under many rating systems

I'm not in the "pro rating game" nor do I want to entertain such a discussion. Nor do I feel like researching the total number of hours these boats have been sailed.

 

What is curious is that folks keep talking about buying Melges 32 or Farr 30s for half the cost of this boat. One can buy a much older boat well sorted boat for nearly half or less and buy into an aging class or one can look forward to a more advanced boat with lower crew requirements.

 

Prices of current M32 are listed here. Go buy one if you are so excited. http://www.melges.com/?p=pages/certified-used

 

Yacht design has progressed significantly in the last two decades.

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