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Jerryd

Raider

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There's been a lot of good discussion about the newest hiking dinghy's, such as the Aero and the Zero. Both seem like great boats. But, what's the problem with the Raider? It's been around a lot longer and seems to have had some good ideas. Is it too heavy, underpowered, too much drag? I wonder if with some changes it could be made competitive with these new boats?

 

Being local for us here in the U.S., it would be another great option!

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The raider's only real problem is that there has never been enough promotion. The builder has been around for years and does a great job on all the boats he builds. There was an update to the hull and rig a couple of years ago which improves speed and also makes it more friendly to take a second person along.

 

There are quite a few of them around, but many of the owners do not race the boat and just enjoy sailing them.

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Jerry, good questions. Thanks for the post

The builder dose'nt participate in promoting OD racing like the others mentioned. Should he? Another good question. So far, that direction has been a very risky business undertaking with more loosers than winners.I'm sure he will help OD, class or portsmouth racing when asked but mainly markets to the general small boat sailing community and does a good job at it. Recently, he has taken on the production of the Windmill class boats and has been very successful at that but the class does the marketing.

The Raider was designed to be a fast, comfortable, easy to sail single or double handed dinghy that is competitive in regattas and moderately priced. So far, the reception has shown the goals were met. I'm sure the builder would greatly support any effort to starting a class in your or any area in the US or Can.

 

 

Is it too heavy? With a hull weight avg.of 205 lbs., maybe too heavy for some (ie: car topping) but fairly light for a 16 footer in its performance class.

underpowered? Not hardly unless you like to include frequent swimming with your sailing experience. The good light air performance of the Raider is well documented. The Turbo Sport model has plenty of up and down wind sail area

too much drag? As with all the newer performance dinghys, the Raider performs best when sailed flat. When sailing healed with the wings in the water, there is additional drag. But, it also keeps the boat upright.

I wonder if with some changes it could be made competitive with these new boats? Jerry, it may already may be competitive. Time will tell. It is already more than competitive considering the price / value.

 

Foxxy's comment about the owners simply enjoy sailing them can't be too bad either.

This is my $.02 but don't hesitate to contact the builder

John D

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Does the Raider have a Portsmouth DP-N?

If not where does it fit in the tables?

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John D.

 

As we all know, there has been plenty of dicussion on these new high performance hiking dinghys including the Zim, Aero, Zero, RS100 and the others mentioned he frequently. I thought maybe that with a design that has been around for a while, maybe some tweaking would bring it in to the same performance category.

 

However, if the marketing concept for the Raider is as a comfortable daysailor with occasional racing, then maybe its not all that important?

 

Just a thought.

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.... ...

There are quite a few of them around, but many of the owners do not race the boat and just enjoy sailing them.

 

And that's a big testament to the boat's good characteristics IMHO.

 

Jerry, I had a loaner Raider for a week up here, asked you to come test sail it. We tried in drifters, light, moderate, and one pretty good afternoon seabreeze. Very good all-around boat, great ergonomics. I'd prefer a centerboard in a boat that size, but it's not a biggie. And one of the best points is the reserve buoyancy. You can hold the mast head to the water and it will pop back up.

 

FB- Doug

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Steam Flyer,

 

Never got the invitation. I think you mean the VX-One.

 

I sailed the boat when I lived in Sebastian. Just think with the market for some of these kinds of boats, maybe its time to revisit the design.

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That 91.4 Portsmouth rating is for the original, mainsail-only Raider.

 

The new molds with a little more rocker in the hull and a fuller bow area added a jib.

 

Now rates 89.1.

 

However, while this handicap has been used for some years now, USSAILING just does not seem to be interested in posting it.

 

Believe me, several of us have asked, cajoled, complained, whined. Nothing.

 

So the 89.1 is derived from the "add a jib" factor in the tables. If the boat is well sailed it is a fair handicap.

 

In my opinion, the Raider II has enough performance. If it were made 50# lighter it would be a bit faster.

 

I just like a solid, long lasting craft that is difficult to capsize, easy to right if one manages, and has the asymmetrical spin for fun.

 

I have the last of the original hulls. It has a catamaran mainsail with two reefs in case I can ever afford to do the Everglades Challenge, International Canoe jib on a wishbone 'club', a longer dagger board and a IC-style pry that sticks out three feet to whichever is the windward side. Bag snuffed asymmetrical spinnaker.

 

Wanna race?

 

Dave Ellis

 

Raider #99

 

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Steam Flyer,

 

Never got the invitation. I think you mean the VX-One.

 

I sailed the boat when I lived in Sebastian. Just think with the market for some of these kinds of boats, maybe its time to revisit the design.

 

Nope, I mean the Raider. You should be flattered that you were on my list of people invited to sail it. That was a couple of years ago.

 

 

 

That 91.4 Portsmouth rating is for the original, mainsail-only Raider.

 

The new molds with a little more rocker in the hull and a fuller bow area added a jib.

 

Now rates 89.1.

 

However, while this handicap has been used for some years now, USSAILING just does not seem to be interested in posting it.

 

Believe me, several of us have asked, cajoled, complained, whined. Nothing.

 

So the 89.1 is derived from the "add a jib" factor in the tables. If the boat is well sailed it is a fair handicap.

 

... ...

 

US Sailing has pretty much dropped supporting the Portsmouth handicaps, which is a shame. From what I can see, the Raider would be a good match at a few points faster too. I think it could use a bit more daggerboard in light air but it does move.

 

Biggest problem with the Raider is that they are so unconventional looking. US sailors want something from the 1930s. Just look at the popular classes, the Laser is the newest one by 2 or 3 decades!

 

FB- Doug

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Ah, but the IC and I-14 are not the same as they were.

I sailed an IC built in the 1980s. Was much heavier and not nearly as fast as the "new rules" IC's of today.

My great uncle sailed I-14s in the 1940s and '50's. The boat was more the shape of today's Albacore, a true Uffa
Fox creation. I just truck-topped a newer I-14 from California to across the border from Toronto. That boat wanted to go faster than I could go on Interstate 80.

The Raider is not of that genre and was never intended to be so.

At age 70 I can still sail the performance boats.

But not competitively.

Hence, I sail a boat that I can comfortably handle.

Also, I can leave it at the dock in the water and go get a beverage at the club.

One gets priorities as one matures.

Dave Ellis

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I love mine but the OP was comparing to the D-zero and the Aero. This is not meant to be anything like those boats. First off it is 16 feet, not 14 or less. Second the design is much nicer....

I do think the only issue is lack of promotion. I currently own the Raider 2 and a Megabyte and I cannot believe these two boats cost the same amount of money new. The Raider is way more boat. that bieng said I am happier with two people on the raider. The raider is very sensitive to weight distribution, and even in low wind it is nice to have and extra body onboard to place on the leeward side so you can sit on the deck and be a bit more stable. the extra weight does not phase the boat much at all.

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I'm going to W. Palm before the holidays and going to head up to Vero Beach to the Raider Builder for a day. He's got a demo there with the furling spin and is finishing another with the conventional assm. if I want to try it. If I get one I'm going to be mostly (maybe always) singlehanding. but some time taking the G.F. who is really not into boating unless it has a entertainment deck and helipad.

Any thoughts on spin type.

Thanks

Josh

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Joshua, I have sailed both the furling "screecher" version and the assymetrical spinnaker that stuffs into the sock.

Here's my opinion, bearing in mind I'm a racing guy:

The furling is more convenient. One pull and it is out of the way; uncleat and pull on the approprate sheet and it deploys.

Works every time on either jibe.

The deciding factor for me, however, is that I cannot abide having that furled sail up there when I am going upwind. Windage.

To furl and then get it down is difficult for one person. With crew, OK, but take a look at the Volvo Ocean Race boats and the AC boats when they take down that furled sail. Goes all over the deck and has to be kept aboard by skilled crew. This, obviously is much smaller, but with the same issue.

 

I like the spinnaker that snuffs because it is out of the way when not in use. More of a hassle to deploy and douse, yes.

Just takes practice.

 

I have a FrankenRaider, a left-over original mold hull with scavanged parts from all kinds of boats to make it sail. With an anything-goes mentality I chose the assymetrical with sock. (My wife manufactures the socks, so that helps!)

But then, my "Raider X" has an IC-style sliding seat, so I'm weird.

 

Dave Ellis

Tampa Bay, Florida

Raider #99

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I have a broken one that's free to anyone interested in taking it...

 

Mast step ripped out, hull and deck not connected at mast base-

 

Free

 

All yours

 

Anyone??

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I have a broken one that's free to anyone interested in taking it...

 

Mast step ripped out, hull and deck not connected at mast base-

 

Free

 

All yours

 

Anyone??

 

Where is it?

 

Don't give it to him! He just wants a cheap hull to shove an old Snipe rig onto!

No-o-o

 

FB- Doug

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I have a broken one that's free to anyone interested in taking it...

 

Mast step ripped out, hull and deck not connected at mast base-

 

Free

 

All yours

 

Anyone??

 

Where is it?

 

Don't give it to him! He just wants a cheap hull to shove an old Snipe rig onto!

No-o-o

 

FB- Doug

 

 

Nope, have a spare extra bendy Starwind Buccaneer rig though.

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That rig would work.

Remember that the old original Raiders had a free-standing carbon mast.

It would de-power way too soon.

For some years now the boat has had shrouds. I also always put a jib stay on my boats.

So a broken mast step could be repaired to make it not leak and it would not have to take the

extreme stresses it had.

Dave Ellis

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Joshua, I have sailed both the furling "screecher" version and the assymetrical spinnaker that stuffs into the sock.

Here's my opinion, bearing in mind I'm a racing guy:

The furling is more convenient. One pull and it is out of the way; uncleat and pull on the approprate sheet and it deploys.

Works every time on either jibe.

The deciding factor for me, however, is that I cannot abide having that furled sail up there when I am going upwind. Windage.

To furl and then get it down is difficult for one person. With crew, OK, but take a look at the Volvo Ocean Race boats and the AC boats when they take down that furled sail. Goes all over the deck and has to be kept aboard by skilled crew. This, obviously is much smaller, but with the same issue.

 

I like the spinnaker that snuffs because it is out of the way when not in use. More of a hassle to deploy and douse, yes.

Just takes practice.

 

I have a FrankenRaider, a left-over original mold hull with scavanged parts from all kinds of boats to make it sail. With an anything-goes mentality I chose the assymetrical with sock. (My wife manufactures the socks, so that helps!)

But then, my "Raider X" has an IC-style sliding seat, so I'm weird.

 

Dave Ellis

Tampa Bay, Florida

Raider #99

Dave, thanks much for the input. The builder stated that the conventional asso was more powerful on reaches and runs but the furler version reaches higher and (obviously easier to use). If I have time, I will try them both. Your assessment was good.

Thanks again

Josh

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Dave, any chance of seeing a picture of your "Raider X with the IC seat?

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Trying to figure out how to attach pictures.

Will have more after the Kettle Cup regatta in Central Florida the first weekend in December.

This will be the "Coming Out" event for this FrankenRaider.

Dave Ellispost-6311-0-35834900-1416793112_thumb.jpg

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Thanks, Dave-and good luck! Looks like a blast!

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By the time I got there https://www.facebook.com/pages/Johannsen-Boat-Works/138673132847705 , the Raider with the conventional asso was sold (gone) so I sailed the one with the furler (code O?)..What a blast! I had never sailed a single handed mono so quick that easily. In the light stuff it was well powered up. The wind never got much over 9, but the boat speeds did.

The builder / owner watches over every detail of construction. I ordered hull #130. More details to follow.

Josh

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That Raider's US SAILING Portsmouth handicap Dpn (average) is 89.4.

In light air it beats that number.

In a blow, loses out to the trapeze boats near that number.

In "normal" winds, that is a good, fair handicap.

An important factor, however, is the comfort enjoyed while sailing the boat. I raced Windmills, Contenders, FDs and catamarans such as a Marstrom A, Hobie 20 and 16 and Taipan 4.9.

The Raider beats the first two monohulls listed.

But, MUCH more easy on the old body doing so.

That having been written, my FrankenRaider X has an IC-style hiking board that extends as far as theirs does from center line.

Much quicker in a blow. And I don't have to hike.....

Dave Ellis

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Ok, to answer BJ2. I had a GPS hand held . the closest wind read I could get for the day was the Vero Beach Airport (about 1 1/2iles away).

6 to 9 gust to 12. The best GPS read I saw was low 13's (MPH) on a beam.reach with moderate but comfortable hiking. The inpressive thing was that I'm not an accomplished dinghy sailor and how easy it was to get there. I think that this is a boat that will perform and race well with good tactics and sail trim rather than the winners being the skippers who spend the most time in the Gym or home training rigs or the ooching and roll tacking specialists. The partner (G.F.) thought it looked slick but not like a sailboat. It will grow on her.

Josh

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There's been a lot of good discussion about the newest hiking dinghy's, such as the Aero and the Zero. Both seem like great boats. But, what's the problem with the Raider? It's been around a lot longer and seems to have had some good ideas. Is it too heavy, underpowered, too much drag? I wonder if with some changes it could be made competitive with these new boats?

 

Being local for us here in the U.S., it would be another great option!

Jerry, I got mine about a month ago and see no problems in the areas you mention. My experience is mostly in keel boats but the Raider seems very powered up and I just ordered a dolly for hand launching so weight ( the builder said my hull weighed 208lbs.) isn't a problem either. No one in the areas I've sailed mine in have seen or heard of them lending weight to the exposure comments but I get many kudos. Me thinks it probably is more than competitive with the boats you mention but in a gentler way until I unfurl the spin.

Josh.

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only thing I will say about the spinny is the furling one is tricky roll back up and have it not flutter in the wind. With two in the boat it is not bad but by yourself it is tough to get it rolled back up correctly, you have to pull out of the wind, roll it then resume course, and keep tension on the line while rolling it back up. Honestly, I found it to not be worth the effort unless I was racing.

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Raider was the top of my list but I couldn't seem to connect with anyone to try one. There's a dealer near Green Bay that said he was delivering his demo boat to someone in the Twin Cities and said he'd plan to meet me first. Blocked it off on my calendar. Never heard back from him and when I called he said he just didn't have time.

 

The next day Sailing Central met me at a local lake to try an RS Vision. I bought it.

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Ice, I had a hard time locating one for a test sail too! Finally had to stop at the factory in Fl.... Delivery was also a little late. But all in all, I'm very satisfied. to me, great boat, price and quality. Cavi, try luffing & then blanketing the spin on take down. Seems like it takes less than 5 sec or so. I put a smaller line(2mm) on the furler to get more turns smoother and faster and a bungie on the tiller for self steering for a few sec. so I can keep a little tension on the sheet while furling. For a two mile reach at over 12 kts. its well worth the 5 sec. set up and furl time :).

Josh

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On 10/15/2014 at 6:44 AM, Jerryd said:

There's been a lot of good discussion about the newest hiking dinghy's, such as the Aero and the Zero. Both seem like great boats. But, what's the problem with the Raider? It's been around a lot longer and seems to have had some good ideas. Is it too heavy, underpowered, too much drag? I wonder if with some changes it could be made competitive with these new boats?

 

Being local for us here in the U.S., it would be another great option!

Look at the finishing list for the 41 mile 2017 Mug Race. Wind avg. about 15 with gusts recorded to the low 30's.= lot of shallow river chop. 4 demastings, loosened bulkheads, beat up crew etc.took its toll on the boats with an almost 40 % attrition rate

In the dinghy classes the listed starters ( one E class & 2 C scows, RS 100, Johnson 18, Thistle, SR 17, Precision 18.5, Raider Sport and Sunfish) Only the J 18 and the Raider finished in the dinghy div, with the Raider, sailing singlehanded, finished first.in the dinghy classes. Good on ya' D.Mackenzie!

Recently, a Raider II sailed in a  Dpn  regatta which included 2 Aero 7's. In medium air and river chop the Raider took line honors in the 3 races.  .. 

Hopefully, this will address some of the above comments. Getting to try one may still be a challenge. Contact the builder or Waters Sails.

John D

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Dave Ellis is selling his. Its located at Johannsen Boat Works in Vero beach , FL.  Dave in his Raider is the overall winner in this years Mug Race. Dave at 75 claims he is now retiring from dinghy racing. We'll see ;).

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Sold the FrankenRaider a year ago. The Raider that I'm selling now is a late 2017 new boat. I rigged it, not the factory. Class legal, but set up more like a Snipe or Windmill. I'll miss this boat!

But time and tide wait for no man.

Dave Ellis

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Dave,  I believe that you'll be back - some other boat, some other form of racing - probably less hiking. You are not done. Happy Sailing!

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Just finished a search on the 65 year history of the Mug Race. Dave in his Raider was the second time a single hander ever won it. The other was  Chris Cordes in  an "A" Cat. Obviously he was the first single handed overall winner in a monohull. Also, probably the most senior overall winner. Good job sir!

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