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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

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Bucket List is listed as the latest Harryproa design from Denney. It looks like it brings together all what he believes in after all these years, no more, no less. Definitely, no more. With a single sail this may not be the best floater in very light winds but I guess that is the price for the simplicity in the other wind regimens that are more fun to me. If delivered as promised on the web site, the sacrifies in comfort may be well worth the advantages in speed and costs. Although there is a fuse to let go of the sail once it pitches or heels beyond a certain angle, has anybody experience with the proposed righting method of pushing the buoyant boom in the water? Thank you.

PS: is there a way to shrink the picture?

side.png

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Boat design forum refers to this video. Commenters are enthousiastic about the concept it seems. I would have guessed that NA's members' driving on the edge and experience with capsizing would generate insights on this particular method of righting beyond just this animation. Sequence starts at 1:38.

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While I love the idea of bucketlist, I think the righting system as stated in the video needs some work. Not enough flotation in the mast and boom, and the sheeting angle of the lazy sheet will prevent the righting system from working like it was presented in the video. With some extra work, the design does have the chance of doing what it was designed to do.

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Raps,

The buoyancy of the mast (~200 kgs) is plenty. As soon as the mast hits the water, the boat swings round so the mast is upwind. If the mast was removed, the boat would right from the windage on the hull, beams and tramp. It is different to a cat or a dinghy, where the mast head hits the water first and the weight of the boat is trying to make it turn upside down.

The boom has 80 kgs/176lbs buoyancy, which should be enough, especially as any waves and the wind are both working to right the boat.
You are right about pulling the boom beneath the water. There is a strut required, which is not shown on the video. It is attached to the mast at deck level and the lazy sheet runs through the end. The strut sinks to ~45 dgrees and the sheet can be tightened, pulling the boom under the water.
Capsizing a 12m boat is not something to be encouraged. The mechanics of righting it are pretty simple. The safety issues are less so. If the fuse is used (1:40 in the video), it should never happen.

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Harry it would be very interesting to see one of these at a regatta like Wangi as there is usually a wide range of different multis present from cruisers to speed demons.

 

I do like the concept but how do you go about performing shunts at a crowded mark? especially in a mixed fleet where we all cut the corners and bunch up. I would guess prudence would have one sailing past the mark to be well clear otherwise a lot of carnage and protests would ensue I think.

 

I can see how a proa would be the least expensive (volume of material) build of all multis... Tris being the expensive end all things being equal.

 

Cheers

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Bucket List wins by a long way on price, weight and LOA.

It will be very interesting to see how it performs, whether it will be competitive inshore with Div 1 multihulls considering it is designed for ocean sailing.

Any chance it could be ready for Geelong (January), I wonder if they would accept an entry.

Maybe an inshore version could be considered? Could this be a better proposition than a 32' foiling cat for around the cans inshore.

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I love the idea, but for around the can, there s got to be something better. Tacking might not be too bad, but gybing would be quite frustrating!

Seems also that the float would try to round the boat to windward, so in light air you d have to fight that with the rudders. That's gotta be draggy!

Have you considered a stayed mast? It s a shame not to use such a wide staying base!

Me like it though :)

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With the weight and sail area I can't see it having 2 hulls in the water as often as an A class.

I would not be arguing for a stayed mast.

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Raps,

The buoyancy of the mast (~200 kgs) is plenty. As soon as the mast hits the water, the boat swings round so the mast is upwind. If the mast was removed, the boat would right from the windage on the hull, beams and tramp. It is different to a cat or a dinghy, where the mast head hits the water first and the weight of the boat is trying to make it turn upside down.

The boom has 80 kgs/176lbs buoyancy, which should be enough, especially as any waves and the wind are both working to right the boat.
You are right about pulling the boom beneath the water. There is a strut required, which is not shown on the video. It is attached to the mast at deck level and the lazy sheet runs through the end. The strut sinks to ~45 dgrees and the sheet can be tightened, pulling the boom under the water.
Capsizing a 12m boat is not something to be encouraged. The mechanics of righting it are pretty simple. The safety issues are less so. If the fuse is used (1:40 in the video), it should never happen.

 

 

Thanks for the clairification! I love the concept and look forward to hearing about the boat's performance.

 

I agree this boat is more of a distance racer vs. beer cans, but all of the "bucket list" races are distance races..

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For all of those asking for stays, it looks tempting, but Rob has reasons for going without for his Proa designs.

 

With a proa like this, getting caught with the sails trapped up against the stays (due to an unexpected wind shift in a harbor for example) can be bad news.

 

Rob also relies on flex in his unstayed mast to dump wind in a gust.

 

As long as the engineering of the mast is good, the unstayed design is very functional.

 

The extra weight of the unstayed config is not a big deal, his boats are light compared to the competition and have ample weight to windward.

 

 

And for those contemplating around the cans racing in a mixed crowd, I think there should actually be a rule making it illegal to stop for a shunt in the middle of "traffic" at a mark.

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Technically speaking...isn't this design a "Pacific Proa" as apposed to a "Harry Proa"...? I believe the mast to leeward--pontoon to windward makes it a pacific proa.

 

I love alternative/subversive notions in projects like this. Alternative home building, alternative bicycle, car, plane...etc. This is how the yet undiscovered spark of ingenuity becomes a ground breaking innovation. I would love to see more of CLC's Madness. More quad-copter views of shunting and proa's at high speeds. Theoretically speaking, the proa configuration has many advantages that seem to outweigh the disadvantages. They are so far outside the "norm" unfortunately. The general sailing masses just can't get away from loaded words like tradition...(which does have its place)

 

bones.

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Agreed. Atlantic proa has the main hull to windward and carries the rig, same length lee float pressed under sail load, much the same as an asymmetric rigged to windward catamaran - same as the Newick types like Cheers from the past --- but the true, traditional, (like a few thousand years old tradition) flying, Pacific proa has the lighter float to windward and rig and larger hull to leeward, so it is always wanting to lift the float out reducing wetted surface - therefore is a speedier design. And Rob's Bucket boat belongs to this category, it's an outrigger with accommodation in the small, windward hull. Well, that's how I see it. Boat will be very fast, very light - like less than half the weight of a similar cat or tri.

On a multihull, light weight is the winner, that is a given (as long as the lighter design holds together) - and this simple and carefully engineered boat will do that.

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Atlantic - Pacific, arguments over definitions waste of space. That's why it's called Harryproa. Call it what you like but don't say it's not a Harryproa.

Every feature of this boat has been fully thought through and proven by experimentation.

Sure make suggestions but don't think you are telling Rob anything new.

The only thing holding this back is closed minds.

 

'Traditional Multihulls', cats and tris, faced similar closed minds and had to go it alone, run their own races outside the 'establishment'.

Hopefully this 'new' concept won't have to do the same but it may be necessary if the 'establishment' which now includes cats and tris continues with closed mind attitudes it may be necessary.

 

As for rules like 'you can't stop here', existing rules will suffice. If you have rights you can make your manoeuvre, if not don't. Be aware that the action of another may put you in a position where you lose your rights. Anticipate and take action accordingly.

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"Bucket List is 12m long, 7.5m wide, weighs 700 kgs and has 57 sqm of sail on an 18m mast (40' long, 25' wide, weighs 1,540 lbs and has 600 sq' of sail on a 60' mast)."

 

NACRA 36C is 11.23m long, weighs 1362 kgs, 59.31 sqm mainsail, 20.36 sqm jib, 17m mast??

 

Seacart 30 is 9.14m long, weighs 974kg, 42.58 sqm mainsail, 16.55 sqm jib, 15m mast??

 

Just for comparison, these are our quickest inshore multi's.

 

Seacart also does ocean races.

 

Bucket List appears to be very much more powerful upwind and I don't think it would benefit from 'extras' downwind, even in light wind. Would an 'extra' benefit an A-Class?

 

Expect Bucket List to be banned. It will be much too fast.

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Expect Bucket List to be banned. It will be much too fast.

Expect it's entry to be refused in most ocean races as it appears to have little facility for things required by the OSR, like a motor. No need to ban it for being fast if it doesn't meet entry requirements

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Hmm! The Ostar, a purist sailing race, has run for decades without motor compulsion. Likewise the Route du Rhum. At the other size end of the equation, like the Everglades Challenge and other small yacht races/challenges, are purist sailing races without fucking motors. Man has been sailing for untold thousands of years, without motors. What is this insane safety Nazi fixation that you can't go sailing without ... a fucking motor. I'm for Rob's philosophy: no bells and whstles, just highly efficient sailing in the lightest of designs with the minimum of junk and clutter.

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Putting a motor would be trivial so that just a silly excuse.

 

Much more interesting is if Rob Denny's design can be proven to be able to right itself after a partial capsize.... what are they going to say then? I think Nuddy is absolutely right .. it will be banned because its fast.

 

I can't see it being banned in any inshore multi event but I do see that participants would be concerned about how to predict and anticipate how a proa acts... after all it might be the one acquiring the rights. Again its a trivial issue and doesn't detract from the concept

 

As money talks, my prediction is that if a demo version of Bucket list rocks up to a multi friendly regatta and punches above its class for less $$$ then speed demon early adopters will jump or at least seriously consider it if they are in the market.

 

I really like the whole marketing/shipping/design concept but without a boat putting runs on the board its a big leap of faith for a potential buyer.

 

Just my $0.02.

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My point was that this is being marketed as a charter boat for coastal and offshore multihull friendly races. An owner can modify things, a charterer cannot, so the boat needs to be pretty damn ready to race, and the majority of the races mentioned on the HarryProa website are run under the OSR. It may be that the renderings simply don't show the finished design, they look pretty basic, but this boat will have enough bullshit barriers to entry without running into things like the OSR.

 

I hope it makes it for the Queensland coastal races next year, we are overdue for some wind in the Gladstone and I want to see a Proa in action

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It's amazing how much attitudes have changed. A couple of years ago, any mention of proas started a fight. This thread, 6,600 video downloads in 5 days and some offers of crowd source funding represent a big change of perception. I am grateful for all the encouragement.

Probably won't get to Wangi or Geelong this summer. Local (Gold Coast and Brisbane) races, maybe an offshore trip, then the Bris Gladstone. Hopefully by then it is debugged enough to charter it for the races north and Airlie, Hamilton Island and Magnetic Island race weeks.
Shunting is one of those things that seems tricky until you do it. The tacking rules apply. I will certainly not be pushing any limits at mark roundings with people who don't know how proas are sailed.
Shunting downwind is slower than gybing, but there is less chance of a stuff up, especially in big wind/seas.
An inshore charter version would be pretty similar. Most of the compromises are for charter operation rather than for offshore racing. I doubt that a proa will beat a 32' cat on foils, unless the proa was on foils as well. Stay tuned.
Stayed masts are problematic on proas, for many reasons. They are also complex. I would not be offering to pay for any non collision damage if the boat had a stayed rig.
A 6hp outboard is mounted on a lifting bracket on the beam.
15 or so years ago, the self appointed Pacific proa police made a big fuss about me calling it a weight to windward Pacific proa. So I called them harrys. Enables some amusing names (Harrigami, Visionarry, Solitarry, Dirty Harry, etc) but made it a bit harder to be taken seriously.
The rudder blades are modified ogive sections, symmetric fore and aft. They work in both directions with the curved surface on the windward side. They are in cases so they can be lifted for balance, shallow water or running up the beach.
If it is banned it will be due to ISAF Rule 1.01.1. Which states "These rules do not apply to proas". AOMRA, SSSS and sundry other clubs have so far been welcoming, but if there are any problems, I don't mind racing unofficially until the rules are changed.
It may or may not perform as well as the numbers suggest. It certainly won't beat the ORMA tri (OMR rating is ~1.245 vs 1.417). The high aspect ratio rig and the rudder section shapes are untried at this size, but work well on smaller versions. Either can be easily changed if required.
We will not be building any new boats until the first one has proven itself.
Anyone who can get to the Gold Coast is welcome to come for a sail.
rob

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I would love to see bucket list race .... in any race.... just show up and sail the crazy thing!

 

Even if there is resistance to proas, if the concept works half as well as the numbers suggest, at the pricepoint of a well used mini 650 you have a winner. Bucket list could start a new class, which can race it's own trans ocean races - which could be run like the Jester Challenge. Why spend 100K on a mini 650 when you could get a new proa, which is faster, less complicated, and more fun to sail than Mini?

 

If the boat works, the sailors and the races will appear. Basically, that price is rather close to a new f18 on a trailer with all of the trimmings, and many of the really serious beachcat racers I know have multiple boats. If you think about it, how much does it cost to Trick out an old Hobie 33 or Olsen 30 for the solo transpac race? The Proa is a Smoking Deal, and sailors will show up to race them if Rob can get bucket list to a race and finish without falling apart at sea.

 

Video of the boat righting itself, sailing, and shunting is all I would need to see. I would charter, then buy. What else can you buy at that price? A used F24, A used F27? A new Lightning? Life is too short to race slow boats, and who says fast has to break the bank?

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My question about this boat has to do with the rudders. It seems to me the forward rudder would be under a lot pressure to turn hard over and that there would be a lot load on the pintles & gudgins. It seems to me it would have to be locked on center (or perhaps a few degrees to weather for lift) or else retracted. I don't see it retracted in the vid, but maybe that detail was left out? Just asking.

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Rob,

 

Why not cant the mast to windward? I think it would be more efficient in any wind strong enough to lift the windward hull. Are there are any practical or safety concerns?

 

Also, have you considered designing a mechanical linkage for the rudders, so that they always turn together in opposite directions (opposite phase)? That way the helm would only need to hold onto a single stick.

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A big pat on the back from me Rob, I have seen your designs evolving and I think your time is here. I believe I may be a proud owner in the future if things work out for me.

 

As gideon says, canting the rig to windward has merit by providing lift but I wouldn't presume to know better than you.

 

I will continue to watch with great interest.

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Canting rig to windward ruins the self righting capability...

 

Use brain before mouth...

 

Fair point - but then, it might be possible to have both a canted rig and a self righting system...

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Canting rig to windward ruins the self righting capability...

 

Use brain before mouth...

 

Fair point - but then, it might be possible to have both a canted rig and a self righting system...

I think the benefits in stronger winds would be canceled in light wind where the sail would be trying to flop to windward... unless you could sail as an Atlantic proa with the ama to leeward...

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Hmm! The Ostar, a purist sailing race, has run for decades without motor compulsion. Likewise the Route du Rhum. At the other size end of the equation, like the Everglades Challenge and other small yacht races/challenges, are purist sailing races without fucking motors. Man has been sailing for untold thousands of years, without motors. What is this insane safety Nazi fixation that you can't go sailing without ... a fucking motor. I'm for Rob's philosophy: no bells and whstles, just highly efficient sailing in the lightest of designs with the minimum of junk and clutter.

Ian and Cathy sailed Twiggy to UK without motor, docked in South Africa? at a marina frequently without a motor.

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Expect Bucket List to be banned. It will be much too fast.

Expect it's entry to be refused in most ocean races as it appears to have little facility for things required by the OSR, like a motor. No need to ban it for being fast if it doesn't meet entry requirements

See if you could get any of them to guarantee they would accept the entry if it conformed to all those requirements.

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Rob has tried and proven most of the features of Bucket List. Whatever you suggest will have probably been tried already.

Rob, I think it will do what you are hoping.

I am very keen to come up and have a sail as soon as it is ready.

I'm not suggesting it would be as quick as a foiler in a straight line.

Boat handling will be much easier so around the cans that could make all the difference.

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My question about this boat has to do with the rudders. It seems to me the forward rudder would be under a lot pressure to turn hard over and that there would be a lot load on the pintles & gudgins. It seems to me it would have to be locked on center (or perhaps a few degrees to weather for lift) or else retracted. I don't see it retracted in the vid, but maybe that detail was left out? Just asking.

The rudder cases rotate around gudgeons/pintles mounted on the beam. The cases are oversize fore and aft. The front rudder is raked aft to the extent that the centre of pressure on the foil is aft of the line of rotation of the pintles. Therefore, the rudder blade, if left alone, will line up with the flow. This has the added benefit of moving the boat clr aft, which improves the balance.

 

Because the pintles are on the beam, 800mm off the water, and the rudders are small chord (300mm) there is not a lot of rake required. The raking does not happen automatically, but requires very little effort of done when the boat is stopped, mid shunt. If the rudder is not raked aft after a shunt, it will turn 20 degrees as soon as the boat starts moving, hit the stops and the drag will cause the rudder to kick up. No harm done.

 

Canting the mast to windward adds complexity. This is a simple boat. It means that capsizing force is increasing when righting moment is decreasing, ie when you fly a hull, more sail area is exposed to the wind.

Proa lee hulls are not forced down by the heeled rig to the same extent as tri and cat lee hulls, so the advantages of canting the rig are less. At least until it gets to the stage where the cant angle is enough to lift the lee hull, a la Sail Rocket.

Canting to windward is a killer in light air.

 

It is possible to sail as an Atlantic proa, but it is neither fast, nor particularly safe.

 

Thanks Nuddy. Any time. Special zero charter rate for people who used to take me racing on their boats.

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By George Rob! I think you have got it! KISS with a Kapital K! Why the hell not. As a life long Tri lover the theory behind a proa has always been unarguable but few have really grabbed attention since Cheers. Then Russell Brown came to Airlie and showed how quick and simple a trans ocean proa could be. I have followed your steady progress for, decades! Hell must be by now, but this is really interesting mate. Congratulations, hope it comes good for you. I will be around Brisbane and the Gold Coast from the 10th of November for a week or so and would like to have a chat and catch up if that suits your timing. Will give you a ring to sort, Cheers. Very impressive.

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I agree. Bucket List seems damn near the perfect machine.

I'll be watching closely.

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I have been reading the Harryproa site and these machines look great.

The simplicity, easy of handling and safety look quite impressive.

It would be very interesting to see one of these on the water.

 

I do have some questions.

 

When sailing is the forward rudder locked in a fore aft position?

If so is this done remotely?

Is there any need to go to the leeward hull when shunting?

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Blackjack,

The front rudder can be locked, but upwind, it can be used for steering, in which case the back rudder can be locked, or just held steady. This is not as counterintuitive as it seems. Because the front rudder has the gudgeons/pintles aft of the case, the tiller is still pushed to luff and pulled to bear away. Downwind, the front rudder is raised and the back rudder steers. If you want to make some height (squeezing out a boat to windward, slightly underlaid the top mark), both rudders can be used. Judiciously. Too much and the boat stops, but get it right and it is a magic feeling.

 

Steering with the front rudder has very low loads and the boat responds much quicker than it does to stern hung rudders.

 

No need to go to leeward to shunt. Release the mainsheet. Pull in the new mainsheet and steer onto the new course. The main will be luffing through most of this, so sheeting it on is not much work.

 

Trimariner,

I should be around, you are welcome to drop in. Email me when you know your schedule.

 

 

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I'll admit - I'm impressed. If the price ends up on target - I think it's a viable marketable boat. A hell of a lot better proposal than the ubiquitous $100,000 25ish foot carbon trimaran that pops up every year or two and never sells.

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PM me about a US West Coast swing. I bet we could raise some funds to get one here to try. There's quite a little experimental group here.

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Congrats. I have always been a fan and have read the whole Harryproa website a few times. Cant wait to see this on the water.

 

I saw some experimental foils/data with fore and aft symmetry by was it Tom Speer for use on proas? The results looked good on paper. Are these foils used on this boat?

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TheFlash,

Be great if you could. Top of my personal bucket list is the solo Transpac, but that is not until 2016.

 

Assuming the build and debugging process goes as planned, I'd be happy to send mine over for a couple of weeks for you to play with next (northern) summer, if you could raise the money for the shipping. About $7,000 return, or half this if someone over there buys it.

 

Other options:

1. Come on down and charter it for Hamilton Island, Airlie Beach Race or Magnetic Island race weeks.

 

2. Charter mine next year and have a crack at the 2 handed Transpac record. Be more intense than being rail meat on the 50' mono, and probably get there quicker. ;-)

 

3. If (with my record, a pretty big if) a bunch of things come together and the first fleet gets built next year, you could charter 4 of them for the same shipping price and have a one design race to Hawaii. Say 12 days (3 practice, 2 qualifying, 7 for the race) sailing @ $500 per day per boat, plus the $7,000 shipping (same price for 1 boat or 4) = $7,750 per boat. 2 people per boat = $3,875 each.

 

4. Buy one and charter it when you aren't using it. 5% interest on $50,000 is $2,500 per year. Charter it for a week per year ($3,500) and you would cover your costs.

 

etc, etc

PM sent

 

Jetboy,

Price looks pretty firm at the moment, will know for sure when the first one is finished. The charter fee will not change, even if the cost price does.

 

Dennisail,

Modified Speer sections. Sharper edges to reduce trailing edge vortices and no hollow on the high pressure side. Symmetric fore and aft so they go in both directions without having to turn them through 180 degrees.

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A couple of weeks before Xmas we (myself and an engineering student) spent 4 days at Etamax building the lee hull half mould and cutting the laminate for infusion. We ran out of time to infuse it, but the Etamax guys did so earlier this week. It appears to have been a success, apart from a couple of small stuff ups (no plastic under the spiral, bag a bit small), which will require some grinding. ;We included the join flange and the local reinforcing and cut outs for the mast bearings and the beam sockets, but not the bulkhead landings or ring frames. Will do so next time. Working in the same shed as CAM literate aerospace guys was a learning curve for me and there are a bunch of smallish things we will do differently on the next one, including rounded decks. The next generation of harrys will be built faster, more accurately and simpler than anything previous.

The second half should be infused next week, then I will visit again, install the bulkheads, join the two halves and install the mast bearings and the beam sockets. Then it will need the foam bows shaped and glassed and a coat of paint. No sanding or priming required, so this won't take long.

With a bit of luck, the mast and beams and their fittings will be wound while I am there, then we truck or trailer it up to the Gold Coast to assemble it. Anyone who knows of a shed or open space to do this in, please contact me.

The windward hull is complete apart from the hatch (plastic) and the beam fittings which can't be done until we have the beams. The rudder blades and mountings are finished, the cases are being built. The mountings need to be fitted to the beams when we have them, the tramp attachments bonded on, boom and tillers built, everything painted and the usual bunch of small jobs to complete it. Gladstone not looking likely. The $US50k price is.

There are some more details on >https://au.groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/harryproa/info 

 

I have just returned from competing in the Aus National Multihull champs. Spent a lot of time thinking "that won't happen/will be easier/can't be stuffed up/does not exist on Bucket List" and marvelling at how much money people spend on boats. The line honours winner, by at least a leg in each race was Mad Max; a 10m cat weighing 1200 kgs, plus 400 kgs of crew, with 70 sq m of upwind sail area, 130 sq m of downwind. OMR rating 1.16. Bucket List is 12m long, weighs 700 kgs, plus 160 of crew and has 60 sq m of sail upwind and down. OMR rating 1.3, I think.

 

 

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Nice work Rob,

Consider the "Double Dammed" race through the Gorge as a great venue to test the boat in a reltively safe proving ground. I'm in for a charter when you can get a boat or fleet here. I'm 0 for 1 so far and would like to up my game.

 

Considering the latest multihull abandonments, I wonder what ultimate survival strategies would be employed on a Bucket List proa. Any idea what the micronesians did in storm conditions? I'm thinking that you could drop the stick to weather and use it like a sea anchor, increasing the effective beam while riding beam to the seas and survive larger breaking seas. We could take a boat to Clatsop Spit while you're in town. The Coast Guard plays down there and might play lifeguard for us.

Kenny

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The gorge is actually a great place to prove seaworthiness. Where else can you find wind and waves with so many safe bailout options? I'd like to run the gorge a few times before even thinking about Hawaii. Surviving big swells and demonstrating reasonable shelter for crew would be a nice start.

 

Any update Rob?

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The gorge is actually a great place to prove seaworthiness. Where else can you find wind and waves with so many safe bailout options? I'd like to run the gorge a few times before even thinking about Hawaii. Surviving big swells and demonstrating reasonable shelter for crew would be a nice start.

 

Any update Rob?

The Gorge is definitely on my bucket list. Don't know much about it, but the videos look like it is a lot of fun. Good shunting practice as well, by the look of it.

 

With the pram hood the crew should be more sheltered than on any similar speed boat.

The hull is long and buoyant, so big swells should be a blast, but when they or the speed gets too high, depowering the entire rig with a single sheet will mean the limits can be pushed much harder than a conventional rig. Really looking forward to finding out!

 

Update: The builder and I got busy with other stuff (ie, jobs that pay) so the second half did not get infused until the week before last. Looks nice. The latest plan is for him to join the halves and wind the mast and beams in the next couple of weeks, then truck it up here for me to finish it off (install tramps, rudders, paint it, etc). There will be some pictures of the hull halves on the new harryproa web page, currently being updated with BL and a couple of new designs. Other pictures as I get them.

 

To while away the time, I have been playing with kites on my half size version. Got one hull foiling last week, and have sorted out how to launch and retrieve kites controllably on the water, which is a big step. Two of us went out in 20 knots with a 4 sq m kite (0.7 sq m bigger than an Opti main) and had a blast, especially looping it downwind, where it lifted the front half of the boat out of the water. Fitting a camera and gps this week.

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Rob,

with filament winding I take it you can't get uni running straight up the mast into the mix so what angle can you get ? And does this mean you have more fibre in the mast than other methods where uni goes straight up and down the mast ?

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Rob,

with filament winding I take it you can't get uni running straight up the mast into the mix so what angle can you get ? And does this mean you have more fibre in the mast than other methods where uni goes straight up and down the mast ?

A lot of winders can't, due to the difficulty of getting the fibres to lie along the mast with no angle to give them something to hold onto as the job rotates. A couple of degrees off angle has a large effect on stiffness which is why some wound carbon masts are softer than they should be. We have overcome this and ~75% of the fibers are at 0 degrees, the rest being at +/-45 or 90.

The other reason some filament wound masts are heavy is because they cannot taper the laminate lengthwise or make double tapers. We can and do.

Winders longer than 6m are expensive and pretty rare. Making the joins without adding weight, reducing strength or increasing stiffness is a challenge, particularly for unstayed masts, where you can't get away with a hard spot at the spreaders and hounds. To do it, you need some smart winding and engineering, both of which we have. Remind me when I have the mast, and i will take some pics to show what I mean.

18m bare tube length is predicted to be 60 kgs. Will go up a bit as the rm has increased a little, but still a pretty light stick.

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Is anyone else having probs with the harryproa website?

Yes "Error occurred: 404 - not found" for a couple of days now..

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Is anyone else having probs with the harryproa website?

Yes "Error occurred: 404 - not found" for a couple of days now..

 

Sorry about that. We are updating it with some schmick new designs and changing the format. As always, it is taking longer than we thought, and for the same reason; unpaid enthusiasts having to work at paying jobs. Should be back up in a couple of days or so. Meanwhile, if you want anything specific, or have questions, email me at harryproa@gmail.com

 

rob

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We are updating it with some schmick new designs

 

Why do you think I was checking the site :D I look forward to it coming back online.

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The 60 looks very neat.

I noticed that it has a much improved rudder system than on Blind Date.

I just watched the 23 min video of Blind Date sailing and with the rest of the boat looking revolutionary the rudder system looked out of place. Then I also noticed on the web site that the owner has the boat out of the water and redesigning the rudder.

It will be interesting to see what he comes up with.

 

It would be real neat if retractable spade rudders could be housed in the sailing hull.

 

That should be more efficient, improve the aesthetics and cut down spray.

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The HP cruiser line rudder system looks much like in the photo's of the Luca Antara.

Retractable spade rudders can be housed in the sailing hull. However, high in the SOR's are hassle free clearing weeds and simple low maintenance built.

Without the horizontal wheels as in the previous system, the new rudder system should be low spray.

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The 60 looks very neat.

I noticed that it has a much improved rudder system than on Blind Date.

I just watched the 23 min video of Blind Date sailing and with the rest of the boat looking revolutionary the rudder system looked out of place. Then I also noticed on the web site that the owner has the boat out of the water and redesigning the rudder.

It will be interesting to see what he comes up with.

 

It would be real neat if retractable spade rudders could be housed in the sailing hull.

 

That should be more efficient, improve the aesthetics and cut down spray.

 

Retractable spades are easy enough to install. However, as Luc points out, it's hard to see if weeds are on them, and to remove them if they are. And impossible to steer with them partly raised. When (not if), you hit something at speed the rudders, their cases and the surrounding boat are damaged. They are also prone to leaking, require expensive bearings and need antifouling and scrubbing. Putting them in cases for retraction makes these problems and the drag, worse.

 

The spray on Blind Date was embarrassing. They were the original rudders, with a lot of beefing up on the cases. There would have less spray if they were faired. The new ones are simpler than those on Luca Antara, and should have little or no spray. A similar boat (bit heavier) with the non beefed up original rudders is at

Still more spray than i like, but less, and at higher speed, than on BD.

 

The bows on the newer designs are much finer. On the early ones, we played it safe and made the bows much more buoyant than is necessary.

 

There is another view about the efficiency of underhung rudders. Assuming the hole in the hull is perfect, and the rudder does not have to be fatter at the top for structural reasons, they are better (though not much) than the stern hung variety, but both are working in the quite thick turbulent flow attached to the rear of the hull. Rudders hung off the sides are not, so have much less drag, as long as the surface piercing section is shaped accordingly. Bethwaite discusses this in his first book. The small differences between the various options are not an issue on these boats which are primarily about low cost, safe sailing. The high speed is a bonus.

 

Dennis,

Don't skip through it so fast and your poor stomach will not have a problem. And you won't miss so many interesting bits. ;--)

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The website works much better now with a faster internet connection. I need a few spare hours to read the whole site. I used to read the entire old one about once or twice a year looking for updates. It will be an epic occasion when the 20M in Norway is launched.

 

Bucket list looks like its coming along great. :D

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"it's hard to see if weeds are on them, and to remove them if they are."

If one suspected weed all they would have to do is shunt and the weed would be dropped.

No need to lift. Another proa advantage?

But I do agree if the rudder system works well without being under hung that would be best.

It would be very interesting to see how the newer rudder design works.

It certainly looks like a quantum leap forward on BD's.

Interesting and exciting times.

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A question for Rob.

 

In light winds, say tacking up a very narrow channel or in some racing situations, what happens if you just tack and leave the main to windward?

 

 

The boats are set up with the main sheet coming from the boom end to the windward hull. This is a safety feature so that if you are caught aback, the rig weathercocks, the boat stops and drifts while you get back on course.

If the main was taken to a hook on the long hull, tacking and gybing would not be a problem, until it was windy enough to capsize diagonally. This would take a lot of breeze in the Cruiser, much less in Bucket List. Tests on the 18m/60'ter in Melbourne have shown it actually sails quicker with the little hull to lee in very light air.

Blackjack,

Shunts are so fast, the weed would end up round the other rudder. Easier to poke a stick down the leading edge of beam or side mounted rudders and slide the weed off.

Dennis,

You ain't kidding. It has gone from cruiser to almost racer. Steinar has given up other projects (apart from harrys and one other, which will blow you away) to get it finished.

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The cruiser looks good.

Looking through the evolution it feels like one of those points of a development where the whole system comes together to reach the next level.

 

Bucket list, also very cool.

Even better if it works out as intended. (Using/selling them in container lots.)

With all the hype about foils, I keep asking my self if there are symmetrical lifting foils. Well, better get the prototype on the water as is. =)

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The foils/rudders interest me a lot. Getting a foil that has good performance in both directions has not proven easy for the proa community let alone lifting foils. But with time anything is possible :) Then you have the balance issue where the rudder stock is presumably at the 50% chord which would appear to produce serious lee/weather helm issues. But one thing I thought of is that the foils usually always have high pressure on the one side (unlike tacking boats), so the foils can they be made asymmetrical in the athwartship direction which may bring back some of the lost efficiency of them being symmetrical in the fore and aft direction. But it seems HarrypProa are on the cutting edge of finding good solutions to these issues and finding better solutions all the time. I would like to see some info on how the new 60 cruiser rudders work. The same as bucket list but bigger?

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Just found a blog entry on Nov 2014 here regarding foils. Would the force needed to hold the asym sections straight be overcome on larger cruising versions with hydraulic steering?

 

http://harryproa.com/?p=424

 

 

 

NOV 2014
Built the 2m long rudder blades and mountings. The blades are flat on one side, segment of a circle on the other. Easy to build, less easy to join together.
Edit: these blades were recently used as hydrofoils on Elementarry and worked very well. Not so good as rudders, the lift they generate causes them to assume an angle of attack, which needs to be countered with the tillers, which is harder work than I like. They will be replaced with symmetric sections.

The rudder mounts and cases were knocked up from ply, carbon tow and plastic conduit to see how they worked. First couple of attempts were not good, latest ones look ok and work on Elementarry. I’ll try them on BL and then make a decent set from foam.

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The cruiser looks good.

Looking through the evolution it feels like one of those points of a development where the whole system comes together to reach the next level.

 

Bucket list, also very cool.

Even better if it works out as intended. (Using/selling them in container lots.)

With all the hype about foils, I keep asking my self if there are symmetrical lifting foils. Well, better get the prototype on the water as is. =)

 

There are assymetric lifting foils, see Tom Speer's (Oracle wing designer) web page http://www.basiliscus.com/ProaSections/ProaIndex.htmlfor some that he designed. The ogive ones I built are what the early Weymouth foilers used, are easier to build and worked well considering the surface finish was peel ply and 40 grit grinder. One flew the windward hull of Elementarry (25' test proa http://harryproa.com/?portfolio=elementarry-75m25) with 2 x 80 kg people sitting on it. Speed was guessed as 12 knots at lift off, then high teens. Power was a 12 sqm kite in mid teens of breeze. No rudder. veru cool to sit above it and watch the flow. The kite was on the long hull, so no help from it with the flying. I am pretty sure a kite, a single foil and no rudder could be made to get the boat airborne, just need time to play. No decent video, will post it on the BL blog when we get some.

For sailing proas, foils on the bottom of 360 degree rotating rudders is most likely to succeed. Mount the rudders on the beams and the foils can be lifted for light air and will fall off if the blades kick up. I have drawn a couple of these for clients, but neither has proceeded, as far as I know. Another option is inclined foils (my preferred solution as they are self regulating), but the steering gets complicated.

 

Dennis,

The Cruiser will have hydraulic steering which overcomes the pressure centre being ahead of the centre of rotation. Otherwise, the cases are made bigger fore and aft and the blades raked aft on each shunt, using a line attached to the boom to make it automatic.

The Cruiser rudders are mounted on the hulls, rather than Bucket List's beam mounted ones. This is for space reasons as much as anything.

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So who would put their hand up to race a Bucket List in the B2G ? :rolleyes:

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Should not be too hard to tick the basic boxes. Floating mostly above the water, upside up, the top not falling off...

Capsize recovery without assistance. If that works as planned it's big. Especially if you are still willing to demonstrate it after the first try. ;)

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I would do it, but since I am cruiser, my racing skills would be the limiting factor rather than the boat. I think this would be one of the easiest boats to sail in a race like this so even I could probably do it. In the real world, to showcase its potential a shit hot multi racer should sail it in a race like that. That's far from me :D

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Updates?

Not really. The mast and beam mandrels are built but there a a couple of jobs ahead of mine. Mildly frustrating, but given the price (zip), and the challenge of getting foiling kite boats to the stage where we can race them, I'm not complaining.

 

Updates are at http://harryproa.com/?p=424including a video of the foiling proa with kite mentioned in post #75.

 

rob

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Thanks for that reply. You focusing on the foiling kite boats as a side project while waiting on the parts for the proa, or are you imagining a fusion design in the near/distant future?

 

I have another question about proa design. Not trying to spark polemics but trying to understand the trade-offs so that the design innovation gets better understood by more of us. I was reading about the R2AK from links on this site and it led me to this account of the proa-sailing "Team Pure & Wild" dropping out of the race. This sentence caught my eye, "By the time we started, we new [sic] that getting rest was going to be virtually impossible since the boat demanded the near full time attention of both crew in anything over 6 knots. The boat was simply not big enough for three."

 

I looked at a photo of the Bieker-made boat and it looks like the "pacific proa" style with great light-wind sailing (lifting the light windward hull) and the crew providing windward ballast in medium-to-heavy winds? It would seem like reefability would be one important issue here. And perhaps shifting the jib with each shunt also required both people? But did the post mean that they needed both bodies as windward ballast in anything over 6 knots? And if so, would the Harryproa design of having the windward hull containing the sleeping body of a crewmate have been advantageous here? If that's true, obviously everyone involved would have thought about this before undertaking the huge labor involved in building the boat. What compensating advantages did the design they chose offer?

 

This photo here also looks not that restful, despite the smooth seas. The comments mention water-ballast as a built in-option. Space for a 3rd crew would seem also helpful. Any insights? Any other ways of making a proa more single-handable in tough conditions?

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Thanks for that reply. You focusing on the foiling kite boats as a side project while waiting on the parts for the proa, or are you imagining a fusion design in the near/distant future?

I bought my first traction kite 17 years ago, with the intention of using it for kite boating. Stronger breeze up high, flying the kite to increase apparent wind/power, no righting moment required, no mast, no deck gear (and now, no rudders), are simply too much to ignore for anyone interested in speed and low cost. The problems (launch/retrieve, light air, strong air, night time use, etc etc) seemed minor, but weren't. However, we are progressing and hope to be racing against beach cats this summer.

The interest in chartering BL has not been high and I don't have anything to prove (to myself) about harryproa performance, so I will go with whichever rig option offers more fun and potential.

Until the R2AK race, the kite option was winning, but if I could find someone local to do this incredible race with, I would be very tempted to spend the cash and get it sailing. Or maybe work a bit harder on light air kiting.

I have another question about proa design. Not trying to spark polemics but trying to understand the trade-offs so that the design innovation gets better understood by more of us.

Whether you are trying to or not, if history is any guide, you will certainly spark something if you criticise those boats. I leave it to you to take your observations to their logical conclusions.

 

I was reading about the R2AK from links on this site and it led me to this account of the proa-sailing "Team Pure & Wild" dropping out of the race. This sentence caught my eye, "By the time we started, we new [sic] that getting rest was going to be virtually impossible since the boat demanded the near full time attention of both crew in anything over 6 knots. The boat was simply not big enough for three."

Given that righting moment is one of the critical things you discuss when designing a boat, this does not seem to agree with their observation: "innovative boat that elevated the level of discussion regarding boat design to a level i have never seen before except perhaps regarding the winged keel." It would be interesting to know why they chose the design when the boat was so obviously unsuitable.

 

I looked at a photo of the Bieker-made boat and it looks like the "pacific proa" style with great light-wind sailing (lifting the light windward hull) and the crew providing windward ballast in medium-to-heavy winds? It would seem like reefability would be one important issue here. And perhaps shifting the jib with each shunt also required both people? But did the post mean that they needed both bodies as windward ballast in anything over 6 knots? And if so, would the Harryproa design of having the windward hull containing the sleeping body of a crewmate have been advantageous here? If that's true, obviously everyone involved would have thought about this before undertaking the huge labor involved in building the boat. What compensating advantages did the design they chose offer?

As far as I can see, there were no compensating advantages, including light air performance. That size rig on any boat would move well in light air. And be a handicap in heavy air and a challenge to sail, reef and unreef in changeable conditions.

 

if the ww hull had been large enough to sleep in overall weight and windage would have been less, righting moment higher and boat and crew performance greatly improved, which only leaves appearance. Maybe they decided looks were more important than sailability?

This photo here also looks not that restful, despite the smooth seas. The comments mention water-ballast as a built in-option. Space for a 3rd crew would seem also helpful. Any insights?

I don't see the point of sitting in the lee hull (or sleeping to leeward of the lee hull) and pumping water into the windward hull on a lightweight boat. Crouching on the windward hull in "a chaotic mess of short period chop, swell, eddies that form out of nowhere, and persistent cold wind that just seems to keep building until sundown" doesn't make much sense either.

 

Juggle and Hope "Any other ways of making a proa more single-handable in tough conditions?"

 

The harryproa solutions are:

Put the crew and as much weight as possible in the windward hull. Not actually my idea, it is what 99.999% of racing sail boats do. If the breeze is light, it is far easier to move crew and weight to leeward than to move them to windward in a blow.

One crew sleeps/cooks/navigates in the windward hull, the other stands/sits in the same hull with the dodger up, tiller in one hand, next to the sheet winch. Sheltered, dry and out of the wind, but he can still see the sail and the course. Regardless of the point of sail or wind strength, if something needs to be done, the single sheet is released, the boat stops, the fully battened main flops around a bit and one person can do whatever is required without fear of falling overboard, venturing out to the ends of the hull or getting soaked by spray.

Easily handled rig: One sheet, self vanging main, no headsails, fixed mast step, unstayed bendy rig so most shape and depowering adjustments are automatic.

Shunt by dumping the sheet and pulling it in from the other end. A 1:1 purchase is pulled hand over hand until the last foot or so when it is winched with a one speed winch. No rudders to raise/lower, no jibs to drop, take to the other end and rehoist or mast foot to move back and forth.

Halyard locks and one reefing line (no need to drop the sail to rethread it), no lazy jacks or shrouds to get in the way, the boom above head height.

No caught aback dramas.

Oversized, beam mounted rudders so daggerboard(s) are not required. These work in both directions, kick up on impact and can be easily lifted from the tramp for sail balance, reducing drag, shallow water sailing, heaving to, beaching and negative leeway. The bows (all 4 of them) are 12" of glassed foam, with angled bulkheads, so easily repairable if a log is hit.

Automatic, nearly idiot proof sheet release if a preset angle of heel or pitch (nose dive) is reached. Crew rightable if nearly idiot proof is not enough. For a small decrease in performance and a bit more complexity (cant the mast 8 degrees to leeward), it would self right.

Long, low lee hull with no discontinuities (hatches, pods, rudder and dagger cases, cockpits) to reinforce. Plenty of laminate to support the mast and beams, the rest is very light as there are no forestay, backstay or mainsheet loads. Faster, better motion, less windage and little added cost or weight compared to a shorter hull.

Quick to build, low cost and easy to learn, which were three of the bigger problems TP&W had.

Few if any of the causes of retirements (apart from hubris) would apply to Bucket List.

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Rob,

 

The three person team seems to be the best solution found for this race. I think they were initially going double handed, and a third was added after some data came in.

 

As team Pure and Wild didn't have time to change the design after launch, it's not much of a surprise it wasn't perfect out of the box. The boats that did well in this race were well tried and true design with a lot of time on the water. Haven't you ever had to change a design after it was launched? I'd expect to see some changes with P&W just as we've seen in other experimental sailboats. Consider how many changes have been made to Scissors for the EC. In the end, P&W may not be the right boat for this race, but at least they were able to launch a boat and find out something to get them closer to what that may be. It's pretty hard to criticize them for trying.

 

Jzerro's shadow on the first leg was impressive, showing once again how efficient and reliable his design is. Pretty impressive for such an old design. Do you think any of your currently sailing designs would have performed better? I've only seen your cruisier boats sailing, which are a lot different than BL.

 

Finally, when can we expect to see a BL actually sailing? There's an awful lot of salesmanship in your writing, so it would be nice to see mouth and money in the same place, unless you have results I'm unaware of. It would be nice to see a boat of your design deliver what you have been saying for so long. Hasn't one of your boats entered a race or at least had a measured performance with a yardstick, such as Jzerro just did with the Crowther 38'? It's a pretty good way to prove your point. Get that thing built so we can see it zipping around!

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