Firebar

J109 Backstay Loads and Other Things.

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So it's been roughly a year since my family got our 109, and we've had a nice time with it so far, some round the cans, some coastals and some attempted longer trips to France (coincidentally whenever the wind stops completely). The budget has recovered enough from the purchase to pick up some new sails for next year and there's only 4 more weeks of racing until the boat is likely to come out of the water. So now its time to reflect on a season of rapid learning, especially in the last month of getting resoundingly beaten in the 1 Design Class (the difference is getting less barring major fuckups!).

One of my major thought regarding how we've been trimming the boat is the backstay, I personally don't think that we've been putting enough of it on, now normally I'd ask what pressure people who've had their boat for a while crank theirs to. But our pressure gauge is broken and they're stupidly expensive to replace. In Lieu of that does anyone have a Loos gauge that they might be able to pop on their backtstay while in the dock and see what static loads they get for their settings for different wind strengths so we can see how they compare to ours?

For next season we're lucky enough to have a bit of an update to the sail inventory, mostly focussed on coastal, with potential for a Fastnet (my dad feels left out as both his children have done at least one!). We've ended up with, and it's a surprisingly long list:

Quantum Light #1 approx. 2008 vintage? (Lightly used, some weird fuckery at the foot)
Quantum Medium/Heavy #1 (Used)
Ultimate Light #2.5 (Newish IRC only, rated up to ~15 kts)
1-Sails Heavy #2.5 (up to 20 kts New)
Quantum #3 (approx. 2008 knackered leech but otherwise in good shape)
1-Sails #3 (New)
1-Sails #4 (New)
138m2 G2 (Unknown Vintage)
108m2 A2
A5
1-Sails Code 0 (New the last 2 years it's been a must, fingers crossed it pays off!)

Ultimate Main (Newish)

Quantum Main (Fucked)

Has anyone got any experience with sails that sound like these that they might be willing to share? Best shapes to get etc. etc. Or, even better, any ideas to fix the leech on the old #3, all I can come up with is getting it refitted with horizontal batten pockets. Though that might make it a nice coastal sail.

 

Cheers,

M

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Firebar,

The US built J/109 has a Sailtec hydraulic backstay. There is no pressure gauge on it. What we do is tape a batten to the cylinder and mark it with a graduated scale so you can tell how much the backstay has been shortened. When I purchased the boat last year, I was unable to pump the cylinder so it was fully compressed. It also took a while for the fluid to drain so it was available to pump up again after releasing the pressure. I had the seals replaced and the unit bench tested to 4000 psi. It works great now and can be pumped so the piston is fully compressed.
DSC00561.JPG

 

Can you indicate what the LP% is on the jibs you listed? I have class jibs (105%) and PHRF jibs (145%). I'm pretty happy with the shape / performance of the class jibs. I haven't figured out how to tune for the 145% jib yet and still need to work on that. The class jibs have vertical battens while the 145% jibs have no battens.

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We had both the gauge and used the Loos to figure out the loads on the 109, and you can pull it pretty hard. The mast will overbend, and the main will get wrinkles, before you have to worry about the loads.

 

So set up the rig according to your/some tuning guide and pump the backstay utntil your happy with the main and forestay sag. Use the scale/batten to reproduce this at roundings etc. And, btw, more can be faster :-)

 

My feel is that a smaller wardrobe with fewer really good sails (that you know how to trim) is better than bringing to many and keep changing. If you have a new #3 with horizontal battens there's no need to bring the old one? You will just hate looking at it... If you still want it for deliveries, you sailmaker can advise on a recut or furling battens.

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WHK we also have a piece of batten taped to the ram! Apart from the useless gauge it works fine!

 

We're a UK Boat so our #1 is 155%, the #2 around 145% (we don't have one of those), our #2.5s are about 110%. The largest that will sheet inside the shrouds. The #3s are 105% and the #4 is a heavy panel cut sail for those days when you need a little headsail.

 

Blur, it's good to know that you can really crank the backstay on and not worry. I know I tend to use more than dad does when he's driving, but perhaps still not enough. Were using the rig tensions North put out there.

 

The new sails literally arrived this week, so were just getting the hang of them. The basic plan is that the #1s are OD only. Then for IRC we will carry:

 

#2.5L 0-12 optimum

#2.5H 10 - 20 optimum

#3 20 - 25 ish

#4 25+

 

Code 0

A 2

A 5

 

The new #3 is a direct replacement for the old one. But I think the old one has a lot of life as a training sail left! Just a shagged leech! Unfortunately most of them have vertical battens. Bar the #2.5 H, which has the option for both. All the rest can be converted if needed/wanted as they are laminate.

 

I've been taking photos and using sail analysis software to keep track of what we've been doing with what settings on everything.

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Firebar & Blur,

 

It's great to see Blur post in this J/109 thread now that he campaigns the new J/111 Blur. If you read the J/109 Blur posts in this forum and his website, you'll pickup a boatload of knowledge!

 

Here in the states, the baseline headsail for PHRF ratings is 155% and with class kite rates 69. In our area (Newport, RI), the 155% is just too overpowered for the J/109 under most conditions. My PHRF sail is 145% and it is still easy to get overpowered. Another J/109 in the area sailed with the 155% for a couple of years but replaced it with a 145% and is much happier with the performance. The ratings difference is 3 seconds per mile (72 with 145%). I've decided that for our spring series, I will use a rating based only on the class 105% jib (PHRF 75) because winds are typically > 15 kts. The summer series we'll see lighter air and I'll do a rating with the 145% genoa.

 

I too have an old class jib (105%) with vertical battens. I was out tuning against another J/109 last month and found that in light air and smooth water (7-12 kts) we significantly out pointed and had better speed. In heavier air with 2-3 foot waves (10-17 kts) we pointed about even and were just slightly faster. I used this North Sail Quick Tune Guide with the base settings, then backed off to the light air settings. I found that the leech of the jib from halfway to 3/4 up would pump and spill air in the chop. I don't know if this needs a rig adjustment, or that the sail is just so worn it is time to retire it, but - it was faster than the other J/109! We tuned with each other on two Saturdays. One was filmed in the video you saw in the 2011 J/109 thread.

 

Downwind I used an Evolution A2 108M^2 class kite (Red, White & Blue in video). The other J/109 also used an A2 class kite (Blue in video). I found that the kite we used had the clew cut higher. This allowed us to sail higher but we couldn't point as deep and maintain speed. Next time I have two other class kites I will try. Unfortunately, it won't be until spring because sadly we are now hauled for the season and doing the winter work list!

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We use the backstay as a more-or-less-dynamic sail trim tool - not something that we set and forget for a long period.

 

If we're too slow and pointy in breeze, we put some more on to reduce the sail power so that we can flatten the boat out and get speed. If we need power, we let it out.

 

If when you put more on in breeze you see wrinkles, pull on some cunningham. If the wrinkles still show up diagonally from the mast to the back of the boom, you are over-bending the mast for the sail so you crank on some more mid or lower - whichever the wrinkles are pointing at on the mast.

 

The bottom line is that you can use all of the backstay - don't be shy about it. But you need to set up your rig first to be able to use it all effectively.

 

When the backstay is off, we have it set up to allow a little slack in the backstay wire. When we pop the kite, the slack goes away. The intent is to maximize forward projection without inverting the mast.

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A question for Blur...

 

I saw one of your Blur J/111 videos at the 2 minute point where you have a bob stay attached in the bow above the waterline, then lead to a collar around the sprit about midway, with a line anchored at the front of the sprit. I'm interested in something similar to strengthen the J/109 sprit for a Code 0. Did you do anything similar on Blur J/109 for a Code 0? How did you anchor the bob stay at the bow?

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I've not personally used Hydraulic Backstays too much, but it's reassuring to know that you really can crank it down without endangering the mast too much! I'll have to look at what point the rig starts to invert under spinnaker loads, we generally just kinda go for whats just starting to load up when the boat is at the dock for downwind.

 

I think I've read through the entire J/109 thread at least twice since I heard we were getting one! It's a fairly decent change from the Sigma 38 I used to sail on, longer legs upwind in flat water but less comfortable in chop because of those flat bow sections.

 

Regarding Overlappers vs non we're going to be going to our #2.5H when the others switch to their #2 in OD racing, as we're in the Solent its normally relatively flat but you sometimes get some chop which is when those #2s will pay. When we're IRC racing we're going to be inhauling, though thats something that I've slowly been getting the hang of after sailing on some First 40s with people who sail them a lot this summer.

 

We're going to be rigging a bobstay too, for the non OD stuff, I think that we're either going to enlarge the anchor locker drain holes slightly, and beef up the structure, or fit a U bolt style thing to the water line area in the bow. Luckily as dad is a composites engineer we've got the knowhow for those! Though I note that the UK boats that already have bobstays are just going through their anchor drain holes.

 

This is the tired #3 in a photo from yesterday, admittedly the halyard is a little soft, I think the average draft is about 50%, but you can see how the leech is hinging on the line of the battens, and how it would probably benefit from horizontals. Interestingly my Dissertation was on composite tape springs, the structures used for some of the folding horizontal battens, so that might be an interesting DIY project.

 

R9RvgnE.jpg

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A question for Blur...

 

I saw one of your Blur J/111 videos at the 2 minute point where you have a bob stay attached in the bow above the waterline, then lead to a collar around the sprit about midway, with a line anchored at the front of the sprit. I'm interested in something similar to strengthen the J/109 sprit for a Code 0. Did you do anything similar on Blur J/109 for a Code 0? How did you anchor the bob stay at the bow?

 

Here's our current setup: http://www.blur.se/2014/08/29/j111-blur-code-0-setup/

 

On the 109 we didn't feel the need for a code between the 155% #1 and the A5 flat reaching gennaker. On the 111 it's another thing with a high aspect jib.

 

We started out with dunning a Dyneema through the drain holes, but then just through a small hole right in the bow with a stopping knot behind. Plenty of material. Even rigged a chock-cord to tighten it inside the anchor locker when the sprit is all the way in.

 

Works great. Static load in cable is ~600 kg (2:1 10 mm Vectran halyard as hard as humanly possible on winch and then "max" on backstay). Scary. But fast :D

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I think generally the mast gets overbent before you start endangering anytning.

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Here's our current setup: http://www.blur.se/2014/08/29/j111-blur-code-0-setup/

 

On the 109 we didn't feel the need for a code between the 155% #1 and the A5 flat reaching gennaker. On the 111 it's another thing with a high aspect jib.

 

We started out with dunning a Dyneema through the drain holes, but then just through a small hole right in the bow with a stopping knot behind. Plenty of material. Even rigged a chock-cord to tighten it inside the anchor locker when the sprit is all the way in.

 

Works great. Static load in cable is ~600 kg (2:1 10 mm Vectran halyard as hard as humanly possible on winch and then "max" on backstay). Scary. But fast :D

Perfect! That's exactly what I was looking for. I was thinking about drilling a hole in the bow to glass in a small G10 tube that the Dyneema would run through. The tube would be at an angle in line with the Dyneema path to the front of the sprit when extended to prevent chaffe. The inside of the G10 tube would be in the anchor locker where the Dyneema could be terminated with a stopper knot. Is this overkill, and if so would a hole drilled through the bow parallel to the waterline, but above the anchor locker floor be sufficient? My concern is chaffe on the Dyneema where it exits the hole in the bow.

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How about using an Antal Ring glassed into the bow? flush with the outside? Plate to take the load on the inside. If youre using dyneema it doesnt have to be a large diameter, Liros D Pro has a break load of over 4 tonnes at 6mm diameter. At that point the ring is proably the weak point, the 7x5 Antal has a SWL of 800kg.

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How about using an Antal Ring glassed into the bow? flush with the outside? Plate to take the load on the inside. If youre using dyneema it doesnt have to be a large diameter, Liros D Pro has a break load of over 4 tonnes at 6mm diameter. At that point the ring is proably the weak point, the 7x5 Antal has a SWL of 800kg.

How does the Antal ring get attached to the plate? If it is a hole drilled for a fastener to pass through, you now have a hole port to stbd for the Antal ring, and another hole for/aft to attach the reinforcing plate, plus more fairing work for the Antal ring.... If I am correctly interpreting what you are proposing. The G10 tube solution is a single hole, that is raduised at the front to remove the sharp edge.

 

Edit: Duh... I get it now. The Antal ring gets glassed in at the front of the hole in line with the Dyneema. Brilliant!

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I think generally the mast gets overbent before you start endangering anytning.

 

+1

 

Same thing on the J/111. As a careful owner you always get worried when crew get "ambitious" :blink: but after measuring real loads I'm not worried anymore.

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How about using an Antal Ring glassed into the bow? flush with the outside? Plate to take the load on the inside. If youre using dyneema it doesnt have to be a large diameter, Liros D Pro has a break load of over 4 tonnes at 6mm diameter. At that point the ring is proably the weak point, the 7x5 Antal has a SWL of 800kg.

 

No need to overdo it. 6 mm hole with rounded outer edge = almost no wear on the 6 mm D-pro after a long season with heavy code use. Replace bobstay every 2 years.

 

Btw. get the white D-pro to match the hull :-)

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Yeah I guess so, what about reinforcing the stem, I'd be a little worried about some of the loads on the hull. Or is the fact that the forestay fitting goes in there eveidence engough of strength?

 

Or in my case get the blue D-pro to match the hull :D

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I decided to move forward with the bob stay combining suggestions of Blur & Firebar and it was easy. I will reinforce the inside of the anchor locker with a G10 strip to spread the load as I found a void near the inner skin when I drilled through. Two pictures show the work in process:

Bow with Tylaska ring glassed in
20141107_155210.jpg

Inside anchor locker showing where drill entered just above floor
20141107_152902.jpg

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I have a 145% Quantum genoa for the 109, next to brand new - used a half dozen times. Mint, A1 condition. Fusion M, technora. Surplus. Just sitting in my basement all year. Needs a new home.

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Very brave going for it like that WHK! All our project work is waiting until the boat is out of the water over the new year.

 

As the 0 isn't due to be delivered for a while I think the bob can wait! Do tell how your fitting goes.

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Separate topic - interior wood finish. Can anyone tell me what I should use to touch up the interior cherry finish on my J/109. It has a beautiful satin finish that looks hand rubbed. I have a few dings that I would like to touch up and don't know what I should use to match the finish.

 

I'm sure with this properly fixed it will help the boat point better :)

 

Bob stay progress:

I finished glassing in a doubler plate against the bow in the anchor locker to spread the load for the Dynema bob stay. I ended up making a custom fit piece that was shaped using an angle grinder to accommodate the bow angle, then mixed thickened epoxy to bond it to the inside of the bow. Before spreading epoxy I put closed cell foam in the hole to keep out the epoxy and ran a temporary line through the center of the foam, through the bob stay hole. This was tied to a wooden dowel on the inside and a weight on the outside so it put pressure on the plate to hold it in place while the epoxy cures. I'm headed to the boat later today and will take a picture.

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Separate topic - interior wood finish. Can anyone tell me what I should use to touch up the interior cherry finish on my J/109. It has a beautiful satin finish that looks hand rubbed. I have a few dings that I would like to touch up and don't know what I should use to match the finish.

 

I'm sure with this properly fixed it will help the boat point better :)

Original finish is a two-part Sherwin-Williams product, sprayed on. J/Boats recommends touch-ups with Interlux #33, IIRC. It's in the owner's manual. If you really want to go all out, check into Rockler, Woodcraft or Lee Valley for professional finish repair products for filling dings and scratches.

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Good to know the interior. Ours was somewhat neglected last winter in favour of getting the boat watertight. I think this year is a cosmetic year. I have to admit that the white panelling that Blur's 109 had is much nicer than the dark wood.

 

Another topic that I'm wondering about is spinnaker pole seals. Ours was replaced in August and with use every week (practically) since then is still intolerably stiff. Any advice in perfecting the fit? I'd like to be able to pull the pole out one handed, not to have to put all my (not inconsiderable) weight into it.

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Firebar,

 

I replaced both the sleeve bearings and the seal last winter. The sprit was "tight" in the beginning of the season, but at the end of the season was fine. I also had the sprit sanded and clear coated as the end of the sprit had some UV degradation. Try spraying some McLube on the sprit and see if that helps.

 

FYI - the sprit seal is Parker Rotary Lip Seal Part # 6652 H1L7 on US built boats. (page B47 of this Parrker Hannifin catalog)

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There has been an insane amount of McLube on the sprit! we've run it fully out at the pontoon and worked the whole length (insert penis joke). Still unreasonably stiff. Before we changes the seal I could pull the sprit out and then catch up with the tailing of the kite halyard on the hoist. On the drop I could unlock it and pull it back in absolutely fine on the tack line (I was going to put some bungee retreival line on it to get it to retract more easily). Now I have to put all my weight into pulling it out and we need to lock the tack line around the bow cleat to pull it back in. I guess at least it doesnt leak anymore :P

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I wonder if the seal is the correct size. The seal has a flexible lip with a groove on the inside where the seal mates against the outer sleeve bearing. You might check to see if sealant got behind the flexible lip preventing it from compressing as the sprit is moved in or out. It is supposed to provide a wiping type action with the flexible part of the seal, not a tight compression fit that an o-ring would make.

 

There is a bungee setup for retreival in the v-berth on all the US J/109s I've seen. I can take a picture if you would like next week when I'm at the boat.

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As always, all of this is nice to know. In regards to cosmetics, has anyone replaced their floorboards? Most of ours are in good shape except a few pieces surrounding the mast step. As we all know water inevitably leaks into these areas. I am searching for the right finish/floorboard type (US built). Any ideas? Defender has a solid list @ http://www.defender.com/category.jsp?path=-1|2276179|2276198&id=2276201

 

...this has been our first year getting to know the boat and we are really impressed by the design/fun-factor...Big step up from an Oceanis...

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It would definitely be worth having a look at that retrieval setup! Thanks for the offer! I guess the seal might not have gone in right! I suppose that we can have a look at it when the boat comes out of the water in early December. Pull it out, maybe give at a light sand and polish.

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As always, all of this is nice to know. In regards to cosmetics, has anyone replaced their floorboards? Most of ours are in good shape except a few pieces surrounding the mast step. As we all know water inevitably leaks into these areas. I am searching for the right finish/floorboard type (US built). Any ideas? Defender has a solid list @ http://www.defender.com/category.jsp?path=-1|2276179|2276198&id=2276201

 

...this has been our first year getting to know the boat and we are really impressed by the design/fun-factor...Big step up from an Oceanis...

Call the parts manager (Mike Trindade) at Waterline Systems now located in the old TPI factory in Warren, RI - 401-247-3000

 

He can probably tell you what source for original material on the floorboards. He's been very helpful in getting J/109 parts information when I've asked, and I've bought some things they had in stock from them too.

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WHK, on 10 Nov 2014 - 08:24, said:

...Bob stay progress:

I finished glassing in a doubler plate against the bow in the anchor locker to spread the load for the Dynema bob stay. I ended up making a custom fit piece that was shaped using an angle grinder to accommodate the bow angle, then mixed thickened epoxy to bond it to the inside of the bow. Before spreading epoxy I put closed cell foam in the hole to keep out the epoxy and ran a temporary line through the center of the foam, through the bob stay hole. This was tied to a wooden dowel on the inside and a weight on the outside so it put pressure on the plate to hold it in place while the epoxy cures. I'm headed to the boat later today and will take a picture.

Here are more photos of the Bob stay work:

 

Strengthening plate epoxied inside bow as anchor point for Bob stay

20141110_143231.jpg

 

Bob stay trial fit with temporary line

20141111_160955.jpg

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Go for an Antal ring for the tackline. Less weight and you'll be able to get the tack 10 cm further down.

 

PS. Remember to do the bungy retriever to keep the bobstay stretched going upwind :D

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So today is the first time that we have officially not been last in a 109 OD race! Hooray! Baby steps and all that stuff. Despite using the smaller non-overlapping headsail slightly into the range of the number 1 we weren't inconvenienced as it cut down on some of the crew errors that have plagued us. We even managed to be the 3rd boat from the combined IRC2 & J/109 start round the top mark. Our downwind trim and driving still needs practice but its slowly getting better (it's a big change to a-sails). Hopefully we can eke out some last improvements in the last 2 weeks of the series!

 

On the subject of cloth I don't know if anyone has tried out the 4T Forte material that OneSails do but it looks pretty good. Its a 3D molded (I believe) similar to 3Di. It looked pretty nice and seemed to be getting us up to very nice speeds, even under the wind range it was designed for. It was interesting that it needed very little halyard tension to hold a nice draft location, less than I'd use for normal laminate sails.

 

The bobstay on your 109 looks good WHK! I'm pleased that the Antal/Tylaska in the bow looks pretty unobtrusive. Blur when you did bungy did you run it round a little block inside the anchor locker to get more elongation distance to retract the line?

 

There is definitely something up with the seal on our pole, with the tackline in my hands I could pull myself along the foredeck on the resistance of just the seal. That's one of the jobs on the list for this winter!

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Blur when you did bungy did you run it round a little block inside the anchor locker to get more elongation distance to retract the line?

 

No need as my bobstay is shorter. But for this one a Harken Carbo T18 or smallest Antal ring would do the trick.

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It would definitely be worth having a look at that retrieval setup! Thanks for the offer! I guess the seal might not have gone in right! I suppose that we can have a look at it when the boat comes out of the water in early December. Pull it out, maybe give at a light sand and polish.

Here are photos of the sprit retreival system as promised. The original system only looped to the front of the compartment and back. After I replaced the sprit seal, I added a second double block to get additional bungee pressure.

 

Documenting sprit pole bungee return system. Note block attached below sprit with end tied off and bungee turning through block.

20141117_123721.jpg

 

Opposite end of sprit showing bungee run through fairlead and double turning block mounted on bulkhead.

20141117_123743.jpg

 

Inboard end of sprit with turning block. Note bungee terminated at bulkhead.

20141117_123758.jpg

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...sprit retreival system...

 

Shit, that's a lot of hardware doing nothing :D I don't know if this is a US boat issue, but on #326 the sprit came in with a light pull on the tack line during take down.

 

j109_blur2-5.jpg

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Before we changed the pole fitting on ours it used to too! :P The 109 moored opposite the finger pontoon to us has a piece of bungy dead ended back to a bow cleat. I personally like the idea on an internal system to keep the deck a little cleaner.

You know Blur our forepeak looks exactly like that but with spinnakers vomited all over it! And no white slatting now I think of it.

Here's us just post start on Sunday, with Jolly Jack Tar, the RNSA 109 in the foreground.

vOBraXX.jpg

And another on the first downwind leg out to a wing mark.

ws16,11,14-289.jpg?1416228363

I'm sure you can tell that they're both photos from pwpictures. Borrowed. Definitely borrowed.

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You know Blur our forepeak looks exactly like that but with spinnakers vomited all over it!

 

I guess there's a slight difference between the brochure and the typical "two gennakers and a code" mess down below :lol:

 

silverrudder14-23.jpg

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Always the way! Ours isn't helped by having most of the sail inventory stored on board at the moment! The rule is if it's not on the boat it's in my bedroom so I shouldn't complain too hard!

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So we went out today for the penultimate Winter Series race, oh dear is all I can say. Lacked boatspeed and our manouvres were slow. Shit happens I guess, we will just have to keep learning. The dirty bottom probably didn't help speed though.

On Wednesday my sister and I took some people from out University Sailing Club out for a little yacht. There was a RIB, a GoPro, and Pink Floyd involved and this happened.

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i had a very simple shockcord return - i think i had maybe one block, one side just ran through the eye. Probably 3:1 purchase. It mainly just to slingshot the first few feet in, not so much to get it all the way in.

 

 

For the bobstay, one option might be to run shock cord up the middle of the dynema. To do this, insert it, whip it at one end (a royal bitch, you have to get the needle to go through the middle of the cord, which is tougher than it sounds), then tension it some random amount, then whip the other end. Do the second whipping just inside of where the cord exits the dynema so that you can bury the little bit left over. It wont last indefinitely ,though. You dont need much to scrunch up dynema, so if the bobstay is 1/4" you could use 1/8" pretty easily, etc. If its tight, you can taper the cord a bit. McLube also helps. This wont last forever, though, you'll probably only get a year out of it. However, it does make a very clean system.

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Go for an Antal ring for the tackline. Less weight and you'll be able to get the tack 10 cm further down.

 

PS. Remember to do the bungy retriever to keep the bobstay stretched going upwind :D

I'm following Blur's suggestion and am changing from a traditional block to an Antal low friction ring (fairlead style Antal model R20.20) on the sprit. I'm wondering what should be used to match the flat bottom of the block to the curvature of the sprit. I was thinking of getting hard rubber (like a hockey puck), trimming the sides to make a rectangular block, drilling mounting holes that align with those in the fairlead, then using a hole cutter the same diameter as the sprit to cut the rubber with a radius matched to the sprit. That will provide two pieces with a flat surface both inside and outside the sprit to fasten the fairlead. Inside would have a flat SS plate to spread the load on the rubber.

 

Anyone have other ideas, and suggested material to use? (e.g. different attributes such as hard, soft, flexible)

 

ANTR2020_249x240.jpg

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On the euro boats you just remove the stainless U-bolt and insert the right size Antal ring, There's lots of load, so I wouldn't like to fix anything like the fairlead out there...

 

After some time I even got rid of the U-bolt and just lashed the ring through the existing holes (smoothen some of the edges on the bottom). Super light and super strong. Also runs better when the tack is loaded.

 

ring2-1.jpg

 

ring-1.jpg

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So my dad and I spent the afternoon getting the boat ready to come out of the water on Tuesday. One of the things we checked while we could reach was the pole. It turns out that inside the seal there's a lip that has been made too small for the rubber ring seal. So the nylon (?) ring is going into the lathe to be turned to fit properly which will hopefully fix the issue.

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Firebar - when I replaced the seal last year I found it had been set with 5200. There was a hard lip formed by the 5200 between the seal and the sleeve bearing where a piece of the 5200 had broken off, allowing a void in the seal where water flowed past the sleeve bearing (the water problem I was trying to correct). I ended up cutting the sleeve bearing in two pieces and chiseling it out. The bearing seating area was cleaned up with a Dremel tool and sanded. I reseated the new sleeve bearing with 4200. Once cured, I also used 4200 to mate the new seal against the front of the sleeve. The seal mating surface on the sleeve bearing was just a straight edge with no recessed lip. I used acetone to get off any 4200 from the sleeve bearing surface.

When the sprit was re-installed, the friction was slightly greater than it was previously but the leak stopped. I attribute that to the friction with tighter clearances on the new bearing and the seal. It slid easier after a few weeks of use.

Today in the rain, I installed an Antal R20.20 ring with custom black Delrin spacers I fabricated. The spacers were cut using a hole saw the same diameter as the sprit and slightly angled aft to provide the same angle that the original u-bolt was installed. I can't wait to try this next spring after the boat is launched!

20141205_225800.jpg

20141206_112143.jpg

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I wish I'd taken a couple of photos. Despite the frost this morning it was gorgeous today. But you probably didn't want to hear that. I

 

think that our seal might be a bit different to some other people's, it's a single rubber ring that is a loose fit on the pole with a nylon cover that compresses it onto the pole and onto the front ring bearing. I just think that the new one is probably still generic and needs a little alteration. But we've got the tools to do it. I wonder if they could be 3D printed!

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I too have the rubber ring that you describe and the nylon cover at the front of the sprit tube. Now that you mention it, I wonder if the sleeve bearing was installed to far aft originally, and I just duplicated the problem when I installed the new one in a similar location. I can see how the seal could have been held in place with the nylon ring if the sleeve bearing was about 1/4 inch closer to the bow. Oh well - it works for now and if I ever need to replace it again, I'll try to move the bearing 1/2" further forward.

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This is a rough sketch of what ours looks like, apologies for photographing it but my scanner is under a pile of sailing kit :P

 

CwNr34d.jpg?1

 

So the issue we seem to have is that the fit into the collar is too tight, squeezing the seal in, this along makes it too stiff to move easily. This is made even worse when we tighten the seal onto the front of the boat.

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This is the cut away profile of the seal we have from the vendor catalog page.
30516.JPG

The flat portion on the bottom is what seats against the flat surface of the sleeve bearing. The wiper surface faces outboard. If the nylon retaining ring was deeper (or sleeve bearing not mounted as deep in the sprit tube) the retaining ring would hold the seal on place. I've just got 4200 in between the two flat surfaces holding the seal in place to the sleeve bearing.

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Typically for boats.... One Design and Different. Ours is a Backwards L like I sketched above with a taper on the horizontal. As far as we can tell it seats nicely onth the front of the bearing.

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Another thought while the boats are out for the winter.....

 

How are people complying with the ISAF Offshore Special Regulation 3.12

The heel of a keel stepped mast shall be securely fastened to the mast step or adjoining structure.

To us it seems problematic, and likely that a lot of the 109s probably don't comply.

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Firebar - I haven't done anything on the J/109 but have done an easy upgrade on other boats. Drill perpendicular through the mast into the the mast shoe and thread a screw in the hole.

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Boats with mast jacks generally just lash the mast down through the hole where the beam for the jack goes. It's been so long since i've raced our/a j109 that i dont remember what the setup was very clearly anymore, though.

 

edit: man there be some good english in that post

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So I think that the plan for our tie down is to have someone fit either a pass through for lashing or an attachment point for a turnbuckle.

 

Boats always look a little odd out of the water, especially when a lot of the hardware has been pulled.

 

UNliHnO.jpg

 

But there's a lot around to keep us company up there.

 

siUBhQ4.jpg

 

Today's major job was pulling the pulpit off for a weld repair for one of the diagonals. I love the way that the swaged on fitting on the Middle guard wire doesn't fit through the eye on the pulpit. We had to de rig the lines to get it off. That and the bolt above the pole is very hard to reach! Managed it in the end though

 

x2lk1uD.jpg

 

An unfortunate thing we've fpund is that the anode on the sail drive wasn't electrically bonded to the leg. This has left some fairly bad looking corrosion. Taught us to make sure we lift at least once to check rather than relying on divers. We now have a connection running inside the boat from the sail drive mount to the anchor locker so we can use a dipping anode too.

 

The next major job is to fit the Eberspacher. That and get the entry in for the Fastnet tomorrow!

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Firebar,

 

What is the oblong white piece with the 4 screws on the port side bow? We don't have that.

 

For the saildrive dippy anode connection, what would you think about connecting the sail drive to the ground system at the backstay? Do you think that would work or cause ground loop problem?

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That's a mount for an electric anchor windlass. Our 109 used to be a demo boat back in 2004/5 type time I believe, as she was in the Med she had an electric anchor windlass and air-conditioning fitted. The air-con no longer exists!

 

I don't know enough about electronics to answer that question really! What my dad has done is fitted a wire from the top on the sail drive leg, to the gas locker, then we can have a proper connection for an anode over the side just in case we cant get the anodes on the leg to connect in properly.

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Firebar,

 

I just found the answer on the ground question. See the Yanmar service advisory attached. I've extracted the answer..

 

 

Cathodic Protection & Hull Potential
The engine and saildrive must be connected to the boat’s bonding system.

 

This means you can connect the saildrive directly to the protective grounding system and attach the clip on zinc to that (e.g. the backstay attachment point on the stern is convenient). Your post prompted me to want to measure the resistance between the sail drive and the ground system to see if there is a good connection next time I'm at the boat.

Yanmar Service advisory MSA2010-007 Saildrive Corrosion.pdf

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I've forwarded that on to dad for his perusal. I don't know if ours is bonded properly or not. But with the number of boats on the Hamble there's likely to be a few causing electrolytic problems so the extra anode will hopefully prove useful.

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Well someone's going to have to go and check that there's not a First 40.7 cuddling up to our boat tomorrow! It's a little breezy!

 

A0uFhQ2.png

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Today was my first chance to go and play with the boat post exams, my sister decided she needed fresh air to cure her hangover so off we went. We had a productive day servicing winches, but I do have a couple of thoughts regarding Harken.

1. Why do I have to unbolt the winch from the boat to get the central shaft out?! Though the different colour of the core material is interesting to see. That and how much thicker the deck is in the corner, all the bolts are the same length.

X5bctd8.jpg

2. Why are there so many tiny parts when some are unnecessary? There's at least an extra stage of dis-assembly than needed!

nDZOhJn.jpg

3. Why did it take 2 people 3 hours to dismantle, service, and reassemble 2 winches? I spent a lot of time last year on a boat with Lewmars, they have less parts, 1 easy undo cap that doesn't unscrew itself over time, And I didn't have to unbolt and re silicone any of them! Also the water in to top doesn't drain into the middle of the winch.

Luckily the next pair don't need to be unmounted!

While the two students worked on the winches our dad got the Eberspacher mounted into the aft locker, high on the cockpit side face where the majority of the trunking can be kept out of the way. It's a good thing to have, with the cold snap we had last night we found that there was an iceicle hanging from the tap and that the last of the water in the heads had frozen!

wz2FDT5.jpg

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Though the different colour of the core material is interesting to see. That and how much thicker the deck is in the corner, all the bolts are the same length.

 

X5bctd8.jpg

 

 

Most of the deck is balsa cored. They put a high-density coring material (Pennski 1000 board) in the way of deck hardware, through-hulls, chainplates and other penetrations to better distribute loads and keep water out of the balsa. Same length bolts make assembly (and re-assembly) easier. I suppose they could have cut to length, but I'm just as happy not to have paid labor plus mark-up for them to have done so.

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I think part of it is the Friday Afternoon syndrome. the back bolts could have been longer.

 

More jobs that have been completed include replacing all the bulge pump hose as it was getting brittle with age. Especially the hose for the roving pump.

 

I've been looking at navigation computers and the Cat2 MOB requirement. I've come across a company that makes relatively cheap 12v waterproof touchscreens, one of those might go at the helm to be powered by some kind of NUC below decks. I think I might tear down a tablet or laptop for the screen down below. For the MOB button I've been looking at a push button at the helm, connected to essentially an arduino that sends the correct string to trigger MOB on the Nav software.

 

In a different aspect I'm looking at using the boat for practice before the student nationals in March, but I'll need a symmetrical pole and kite. We've got the hardware (mast track, car, fittings for downhaul) that are needed. I just need to borrow a kite and a pole. What sort of size boats should I be looking at? I can probably get hold of the ones off a Sigma 38. Would those be likely to fit? I think the hoist height might be a touch short. Alternatively I may be able to get some 40.7 stuff. Or maybe Reflex 38 if I ask really nicely.

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...

 

I've been looking at navigation computers and the Cat2 MOB requirement. I've come across a company that makes relatively cheap 12v waterproof touchscreens, one of those might go at the helm to be powered by some kind of NUC below decks. I think I might tear down a tablet or laptop for the screen down below. For the MOB button I've been looking at a push button at the helm, connected to essentially an arduino that sends the correct string to trigger MOB on the Nav software.

...

Firebar - I love these hi tech solutions to the mundane problems. I just mounted two Nexus remote pushbuttons port and stbd near the helm so the button can be pushed to tell the Nexus server to lock in the base course for determining header and lift on each tack. These are waterproof and can also be used for MOB. The Nexus server remembers the headings on Port & Stbd between tacks. I had a slightly different approach with the TackTick displays on my J/30 that I actually liked better because it showed a bar graph where you set the averaging time and it displayed degrees headed or lifted on a tack automatically. Visual - easy to see the magnitude and easy to act on if you wanted to.

 

ac91_pushb.jpg

Do you have a chart plotter at the helm? We have a Raymarine C90W that has a man overboard button. I haven't looked into the specifics but I do know it puts a waypoint on the plotter and provides the course to steer to return to the MOB point. Perhaps there is a NMEA sentence that is also triggered that you could use the arduino to decode and take whatever action is needed (DSC call for MOB, etc.).

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Unfortunately our nav system is some frankenstineian mix of raymarine and b+g. Raymarine discontinued their system that would work.

 

What I'm thinking is that I can put a small waterproof screen, about £180, at the helm. This takes HDMI in and could be used to run things. I think there's also a VGA input that could be linked right to the rapmarine chart plotter.

 

There is indeed a NMEA sentence for Man Over Board but it's pretty new so I don't think our nav gear will take it. It's certainly not documented.

 

The idea with the NUC and the Arduino came from someone who made a custom up/dowvote button for Reddit. They used a usb keyboard prototyping board. The board can even be made, I think, to open the plotter program or switch to it if not selected. The Next Unit of Computing is interesting. We're seeing decides that draw 4W as fully featured PCs running Windows with the new Broadwell architecture. Passive Cooling and they take 12v supplies too so they could be great for onboard.

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making an arduino talk to a raymarine sounds about as much fun as having an arduino talked to a webserver and shared server system. (seriously, the latter is killing me right now...)

 

 

I dont remember ever unbolting the harken main shafts from the deck - but its been a while and i only did one winch teardown.

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My plan is to pretend that Raymarine doesn't exist (and no one can tell me otherwise!) though how to do this while sending a Graduate Application to Raytheon is beyond me. Basically we have a B&G system that collects most of the instrument data, this then feeds into a NMEA multiplexer, which feeds to a laptop, the Raymarine course computer connects to the multiplexer, as does the serial out. Basically the Raymarine unit can, with enough persuasion, be made to display waypoints external to the system, though it works best when the plotter is off. It all looks something like this:

 

aVa6FSC.png

 

The Blue is already existing, though we had to actually rationalise the connections (half of them were wrong when we bought the boat), The orange is the proposed MOB button solution.

 

The primaries don't need to be unbolted, but with the secondaries we have the central gearing is too large to fit out through the space in the shaft. Unless we're really blind.

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wow. that is impressive. let us know how it goes - i've been enjoying most aspects of working with these controllers but i have absolutely no background with it aside from HTML for one semester in college.

 

 

\no recollection on the winches - im sure someone here can help you though.

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I dont remember ever unbolting the harken main shafts from the deck - but its been a while and i only did one winch teardown.

 

The older Harken (rooftop/halyard) winches hade to be removed to me services. They changed that on the new Performa series (that's on the J/111). Big improvement!

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A friend who owns J/109 URSA had stainless steel plates machined that are bolted on top through the coach roof and threaded with the winch bolt pattern so they can be easily removed for service without pulling the head liner. I'm putting that on my future project list. Too many projects already scheduled for this off-season.

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The threaded plate idea makes a lot of sense! Especially as if I asked nicely I could get it plasma cut in the uni for me!

 

I went down to the boat today, with roughly 3 weeks to go until launch the anti fouling is finished, as is the polishing.

 

utqmySc.jpg

 

XdBSTO2.jpg

 

The corrosion on the sail drive is being ground back and seems not as bad as we thought. Unfortunately I fluffed the before picture. It will now be etch primed and then repainted.

 

8kSAaRe.jpg

 

Mum has been working on winch and instrument covers, primarily to stop the water getting into the top of the ratchets inside.

 

d3eNU6s.jpg

 

0AWnKOK.jpg

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I've spent the day on 2 things. Firstly setting up inhauler blocks. These are an antal ring with a strop with eyes on each end attached to the shackle for the bullet block.

 

ydiPPl0.jpg

 

Lsp3eJu.jpg

 

We've also started redoing the deck grip with kiwi grip. It remains to be seen how well it works but it looks promising.

 

3pXStHy.jpg

 

(This is a split post to fix the Display issues with the final 3 images)

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Firebar - nice shiny hull you got there! I went to the boat yesterday. There is a snow drift 4 feet tall around the boat and temperature was 12 degrees F. No prep work for spring happening on this side of the pond yet...

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Looking good.

 

I would be a bit careful with the bullet blocks. The load on the infucker can be pretty high at times, so keep a close look at them.

 

The alternative is to use a bigger ring that can take both the infucker + 2 sheets (for changing sails).

 

28444-1.jpg

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The benefits of the Gulf Stream WHK! I've been seeing all the posts around about snow and thinking that the weather is just starting to warm up and I'm looking forward to a sail!

 

That's my concern too Blur. It's hard to get hold of larger antal rings around here. I've seen the small bullets fail before and it's normally the shackle pin. If the do look like they're going bad I'll switch them over to antals too. I was looking at fitting an antal into the eyebolt at the spinnaker tack too, like yours. It turns out that our pole has welded on washers that make it not fit!

 

I was looking at spinnaker turning blocks yesterday too. The harken blocks designed to have a lashing on them looked really nice but their SWL is only 360kg. Harken recommends SWL 800kg for their medium boat (to 34 feet) area. I wonder what they could actually be used for save dinghies and small boats.

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...

 

That's my concern too Blur. It's hard to get hold of larger antal rings around here. I've seen the small bullets fail before and it's normally the shackle pin. If the do look like they're going bad I'll switch them over to antals too. I was looking at fitting an antal into the eyebolt at the spinnaker tack too, like yours. It turns out that our pole has welded on washers that make it not fit!

...

Firebar - look at the picture I put in this post above on how I mounted an Antal aluminum deck ring on the sprit. The R20.20 Antal ring I used matched the bolt pattern spacing on the sprit and is rated for 800kg load. There is a stainless version rated for 1500kg load. I used a circle cutter the same diameter as the sprit to fabricate the mounting blocks from black Delrin stock that you could shape for any interference on the pole (e.g. the welded on washers). I needed to buy longer stainless cap screws to accommodate the Delrin blocks. The cap screws provided by Antal have a section of heat shrink to electrically isolate the stainless from the aluminum. I did the same with heat shrink to isolate the longer bolts I used. Below are the specs for the Antal R20.20

 

ANTR1414-1.jpg

post-27249-0-77408900-1424615336.jpg

 

Edit: The Antal specs didn't format as a table so posted as a picture.

post-27249-0-77408900-1424615336_thumb.jpg

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WHK I think our pole is pretty different to yours. We have an endcap with a flat section that the U bolt thing goes into. However at the moment as it's not a simple change we are going to stick with the lewmar block out there.

 

We are still trying to work out why the pole sticks. When it went back in it was almost perfect. But now it's stiff again. It might be the seal is cold and stiff or it might be dirt or it might be the bearing is worn, but it's really bugging me as it just shouldn't be like that!

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that bullet looks underspecced to me too. I never worked with inhaulers on the 109 but i have on 30-45ft's. I've seen deformation and crushed bearings in lower-loaed parts of the system.

 

Hull looks awesome!

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Luckily the bullet and dyneema are leftovers from something else. It's not an enormous problem if they fail. They're rated for a SWL of about 150kg with a break at 450kg. I'm not sure how much load we will get on the sheets, the harken load calculator suggests a 360kg sheet load for our 30m2 headsail in 25kts. So if the load was less than 0.4 sheet load we would be ok. It might be a better thing to move the bullets to something else and then switch for antals. (I was very proud of the splice though! ;) ).

 

That's the thing with a blue hill! They look great up until the point they see salt water and uv! :P

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Today was the first day of sailing on JT for what is looking like its going to be a busy old year. It was absolutely freezing and grey and dismal, with a North-Easterly blowing in from the Arctic, but it was nice to be out!

We got to test out one of last year's orders for the first time, a 1-Sails laminate #3 which looks lovely, they've done a good job given the brief (we're planning on doing the next Fastnet, we need a headsail that'd be ok for several days of unpleasant upwind work). It's a single taffeta standard laminate. Which will hopefully soon have a set of horizontal batten pockets in it too.

dXr9Wt0.jpg

Earlier in the week we had a play with bob-stays and the pole end fitting. we ended up routing out the drain holes for the anchor locker, smoothing and sealing all the corners and fitting a pair of through deck ferrules to either side, to make it safe for bare dyneema to run through. The bottom fitting of the stay is a pair of brummel loops themselves brummeld together and all lock stitched. There is the ability to tension it inside the anchor locker. Retraction is aided by exactly the method mustang_1 suggested, a piece of elastic to contract the dyneema.

Q0wTM7i.jpg

The other end is a brummel loop that picks up the shackle for the tack line, here you can see that we've got a different end fitting to most everyone else, with the end being fairly solidly glued onto the pole. We've also been playing with the Karver for the Code 0, in the image there is what was lovingly referred to as the quiot, an attempt to see if mounting the furler onto a ring around the pole was sensible. The final verdict was that it's far simpler to just retract the pole while changing and get the furler right out to the tack fitting.

35cm8it.jpg

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The Zero was designed to be flown on a fully out pole, or so I'm told, but the caveat was that we had to use a bobstay while flying it.

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interesting instrument pod setup with what look like BG's with a lone raycrap?

 

 

glad i could be of help for the rigging! it can be such a royal bitch to run the shockcord but its so cool when you're done that its usually worth it. i love using it all over dinghies and sym spin pole bridles.

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It's a somewhat strange system, not helped by being incorrectly connected when we got it :/ . Basically there's a B&G system, all h2000s with 3 20/20s, a pair of FFDs on deck, a NMEA FFD below and all the sensors for that. Then there's the raymarine E80, the ST60, a S1000 autohelm and a ST6001 controller. It's all connected by an NDC4. It's somewhat mad. I tend to just use a laptop on the system, I'm hoping it will let me use some of the B&G custom sentences too.

 

It looks pretty cool having the bobstay bungee itself back. Still need a little extra just to hold it up a touch more. It was a good suggestion!

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No, no honestly its fun! (Who am I kidding? That setup has been the bane of my life.)

 

The Teensy hasn't happened yet, I've been a bit busy with my final project for University, but hopefully after Easter that will happen, I might even try out the home made Gyro addon for the S1000. I've even found a reasonably priced IMU that might be fun to play with using the new Raspberry Pi 2 B.

 

I went out today with some people from Uni and we got the Code 0 up for the first time. Here's the setup with the Karver in place and the bobstay all extended.

 

Rlmnuac.jpg

 

W4e7AOS.jpg

 

Then here is the sail unfurled

 

SDKXhjT.jpg

 

And the general shape of the thing

 

kxOzEgm.jpg

 

I like that the clew has a big velcro patch to hold it all closed. The sail definitely needs to be twinged for the conditions we were flying it in, the big mid girth makes the back flap a load if it's not.

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Nice upgrades...

 

Has anyone come up with a slick way of covering the spin pole track on the mast?

Happened to us before where it ripped the #1. It's got polished off with a Dremel afterwards and covered with duck tape but it looks naff.

The clew ring on the jibs does damage it

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Thanks, it's been nice to get out on the water!

We've been thinking about just making a small padded cover to go there, like you see on boats with carbon rigs, that would stop it catching and also protect the bottom of the mast from the clew of the sail too.

Went out today to try and do the Interclub Youth Keelboat Championships, with the inexperienced crew we decided to call it a day when the gusts hit 40 kts :P

We tried the J4 and a reef, but balance was a bit bad and we were getting overpowered still. What would have been the better option to still try and race? J3 and try and hold it all or J4 and 2 reefs?

 

10259831_1558252271129157_15955297655167

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I'll take some tomorrow, I'm planning to pop down to the boat.

 

However from memory we have an eyebolt of some type with a large(ish) backing plate on the mast and a second one on the step with a big shackle connecting the two.

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I'll take some tomorrow, I'm planning to pop down to the boat.

 

However from memory we have an eyebolt of some type with a large(ish) backing plate on the mast and a second one on the step with a big shackle connecting the two.

That would be great!

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