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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

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MR.CLEAN

Video: VESTAS VS. MAPFRE Mid-Ocean. Foul?

60 posts in this topic

 

In this battle of the latecomers, the two final entries in the VOR fight it out mid-Atlantic, with Chris Nicholson luffing the Spanish a couple of weeks into Leg 1. Did MAPFRE foul Vestas? You make the call.

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.

 

....you're at the race villiage now?

 

 

..It looks like the poor lads on Mapfre were so 'heads-in',distracted that they didn't see the bigV....and perhaps so bummed already that they didn't bother do anything to correct :unsure:

 

 

....otoh,, there's nothing to indicate that Vestas had made an alteration of course to avoid Mapfre,they're bearing away,if anything,once the camera shows the helm. It's not clear ,but a view out the stern shows the stern-trail had veered to windward if anything. I don't think V did anything illegal,,but also don't believe they were innocent victims--a very 'handy' time to have the camera on :mellow:

 

...It looks like more ''boatyard bluster'' from the aussie boys.....nice try though :lol:

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Vestas didn't have to alter course to avoid MAPRE. No foul

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Vestas was the overtaking leeward boat and from the video appears to be sailing a course so it would pass well to leeward. It appears to have a jib up while Mapfre has a Code zero. MapFre, as the windward boat altered course and fell off but from the video it is not clear that Vestas made any alteration of course, or had to, while it sailed through to a position clear ahead to leeward.

 

Mapfre's obligation was to keep clear, which it did at all times, and then fell way off when clear astern.

 

No penalty by either boat.

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Hard to tell if the guy with the red flag and the helmsman signaling a circle with his finger were serious or if they were just kidding around like "hey, we're in the middle of the ocean and it's like a dinghy race all of a sudden!".

 

I'm inclined to think they're kidding around... Mostly because, as others have said, there's no hard evidence that Vestas had to alter course and therefore no reason to believe they were fouled.

 

But interestingly, according to NOR 11.2, which references RRS 44.1, a 720 is a legitimate exoneration for a racing foul in VOR, just like in any ordinary coastal round-the-buoys race. Whoever said "that's a circle" should have said "that's two circles" or "that's a 720", as one circle would not have been adequate for exoneration.

 

Is Vestas filing a protest, or did Clean just post this for humor value?

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................. Whoever said "that's a circle" should have said "that's two circles" or "that's a 720", as one circle would not have been adequate for exoneration.

 

Is Vestas filing a protest, or did Clean just post this for humor value?

.

 

....I'm sure those guys know that it means absolutely nothing unless the word 'protest' is used in the hail.

 

 

 

 

. Red Herring.

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Well don't the circles have to be completed before the next mark on the course? That could be days later.

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Impossible to really tell distances when the overlap was established and whether it was broken, for consideration of compliance with 17.

 

Also can't see whether Vestas sailed above her proper course or not.

 

AFAICS, no issues with 11. But can't really see much.

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A non-sailor, but it looked like Mapfre kept well clear the entire time and Vestas never had to change coarse.

 

WetHog :ph34r:

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If I were on a jury I'd not hear a case anyhow.

Never heard the word "Protest!" especially loud enough for the windward boat to hear.

The windward boat kept clear with plenty of room. (Of course I do RC for dinghies.)

Red flag was really small, not where the other boat could see it, like on a shroud, and was only up for a few seconds.

Maybe if they kept an appropriate flag up for the next 17 days or so, but by then it would be rags.

The guys doubtless were just messing with them and wanted to get in a position to clear their air.

Must have worked, eh?

Dave Ellis

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Can't understand why Mapfre would even risk getting that close.

No foul but poor tactical decisions from Mapfre.

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Why did it take so long for this video to emerge? A great bit of action that would have been more interesting at the time.

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Impossible to really tell distances when the overlap was established and whether it was broken, for consideration of compliance with 17.

 

Also can't see whether Vestas sailed above her proper course or not.

 

AFAICS, no issues with 11. But can't really see much.

How do you assess proper course on an ocean race?

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Looks like Mapfre initially thought they would cross (marginally) in front then realized at the last moment they wouldn't (or nobody was looking under that huge gennaker) and did a last minute panic luff requiring that Vestas alter course to avoid contact.

 

From a strict rule book point of view Mapfre infringed (although we didn't hear any yelling from Vestas in the video but they may have before).

 

From a more general perspective, it's quite revealing of how the leg turned out. Mapfre giving the impression of not knowing what they are doing despite the talent on board, and Vestas acting cool and collected. We all know how t turned out.

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Interesting to see that Nicholson made sure the cameraman, who had turned the camera on him, pointed it back toward Mapfre, as if to make sure this was documented.

 

There were probably a few close crossing in the Southern Ocean that would have interesting to see, even now, I guess.

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Never heard anyone call "Leeward Boat", in an attempt to communicate with the other boat. What a chicken shit protest that was on open water, without any strategic advantage to be gained. Would be a little embarrassed to have that video shown to everyone. How much fun would it be to go sailing with those guys?

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^I would gladly go sailing with Chris Nicholson any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

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^I would gladly go sailing with Chris Nicholson any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

Double plus one

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I call BS on the protest. I reckon Vestas was just having fun.

 

And how handy was that little red flag after all those miles at sea?

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Vestas looks like they're luffing their headsail.... hardly turning down to avoid a collision

.

.....there's a point you can see V's wake-trail in the the video,from :24,,but best at :33

 

. ...my impression is that they steered to windward in the minute or two before the filming

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Summed up best by the comment on Vestas, 'What was that all about'.

 

Pretty clear MAPFRE are not doing the business.

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I think Nico might refer to that as testing someone's sense of humour.

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I think Nico might refer to that as testing someone's sense of humour.

.

 

 

..well put.... right out of the 18'er boatpark,,not sure if the Spanish got the joke though :mellow:

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Probably a bit of fun to ease the routine. It would have been a 5 minute protest in any case. 2nd question from any good jury. Was the word 'Protest' used? RRS 61.1 (a)

 

It clearly wasn't so invalid protest, thank you for wasting our time boys, the beer is on you!!

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A bit of amusement in the middle of the ocean was all it was. Iker was down on the starboard quarter the whole time and the wave and chat seemed friendly enough.

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How would proper course be defined there?

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MAPFRE came in DFL - so even if they were at fault here, what the hell difference could it make. Had they beaten TVW to the line, then it might have been worth consideration. Move on I say.

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I'm assuming you all saw the view from Mapfre.

 

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Whatever the case, perhaps it would of been better if Mapfre followed Vestas to Cape Town...

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Vestas bore away. You can tell by watching the change of the angle of heel.

2 turns penalty for Mapfre.

 

The rules for protesting on a leg (after the in-port circus) do not require a flag nor a hail.

 

Mapfre not taking the turns = karma.

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Impossible to really tell distances when the overlap was established and whether it was broken, for consideration of compliance with 17.

Also can't see whether Vestas sailed above her proper course or not.

AFAICS, no issues with 11. But can't really see much.

How do you assess proper course on an ocean race?
Exactly.

 

(Well, GPS track before & after the incident would be my starting point.)

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watching the Spanish video it is obvious that Mapfre was surprised by Vestas. Apptly they did not see them coming, which is surprising to me. Their OBR was even inside and comes out last minute to take some pics. Fonseca comments at the end of the video that Vestas luffed them on purpose and that they were not happy with that. "We were faster" he says inferring that Vestas should have let them pass. You can also see Iker going to the front of the boat to yell at Vestas his unhappiness. Well, Mapfre, rules are rules even in the middle of the ocean...

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Well don't the circles have to be completed before the next mark on the course? That could be days later.

 

No points for you Raspers.

 

44.2 One-Turn and Two-Turns Penalties - After getting well clear of other boats as soon after the incident as possible, a boat takes a One-Turn or Two-Turns Penalty by promptly making the required number of turns in the same direction, each turn including one tack and one gybe. When a boat takes the penalty at or near the finishing line, she shall sail completely to the course side of the line before finishing.

 

I fuckin hate it when people can't get that right, sail themselves out of trouble and sort out the mess later, no you fucking don't fellow. You take it up the arse now , get yourself out of the way as fast as you can and loose a bunch.

 

I think they were probably fuckin about.

 

Almost impossible to say from the vid, but I think Vestas did take some avoiding action early in the move. All done and dusted now.

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From the MAPFRE video, the boats certainly like to to sniff a bit in pretty flat conditions.

Being a one design class, a can't work out why you would build boat that would be so hard to drive hard.

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Vestas bore away. You can tell by watching the change of the angle of heel.

2 turns penalty for Mapfre.

 

The rules for protesting on a leg (after the in-port circus) do not require a flag nor a hail.

 

Mapfre not taking the turns = karma.

 

Heel angle can change due to dirty wind from MAPFRE.

 

Just looking at this video I dont thing a Jury can tell if VESTAS bore away.

 

I can see in the video always at least one boat length or so between both boats. MAPFRE keeps clear.

 

VESTAS bears away just before the incident to sail a similar course.

 

In my opinion VESTAS didn't want MAPFRE crossing her bow, and they got it.

 

Mid atlantic nonsense.

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.



...awww,'mon....this situation and Mapfre's video was posted long ago in the leg1 thread....it's clearly a trial balloon from Clean to see what tripe we'll bite how easy his job will be.

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the bigger question is why are they sailing 60 degree different courses when they are going to the same place ? One with a CO and Vestas with a j1

 

I see no foul here but even still why did windward boat stuff it so hard, fall asleep, then crack off 100+ degrees

 

The whole thing is just bizarre, whether or not they saw each other coming--- and how could they NOT know each other was there ?

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The bizarre thing to me is, according to the Virtual Eye Tracker, a few of the boats did a penalty turn at one point or another.

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probably a back down to clear weed or rubbish off appendages.

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I was referring to when the tracker bugged out a few times. Looked the boats were spinning. Mapfre went into hyper drive.

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Not that it matters, but the number of people in this thread that can't tell a Code Zero (MH0) from an A3 Spin from a J1 is disappointing to say the least. Map has up the A3, Vestas has up the MH0.

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^I would gladly go sailing with Chris Nicholson any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

Double plus one

Concur.

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I considered this for a while, thinking definetly no foul before it came to me:

 

This is just a joke!

 

Chris isn't the guy who would pull such a stunt in the middle of the ocean.

They were having the camera on.

I guess someone came up with the idea:

Hey you media man, get out the camera, we'll do a little luffing in the middle of an around the world race, wave a flag and all that.

What a laugh!

I know they are very professional and in racing mode ALL THE TIME. Still it does get boring on a 25 day leg with not so much wind. A joke here and there can't harm anyone...



Not that it matters, but the number of people in this thread that can't tell a Code Zero (MH0) from an A3 Spin from a J1 is disappointing to say the least. Map has up the A3, Vestas has up the MH0.

 

wiseass



The bizarre thing to me is, according to the Virtual Eye Tracker, a few of the boats did a penalty turn at one point or another.

 

How many hours did you sear the tracker to find these?

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The boats aren't right for sure. It's like sailing a club 420 around the world.

 

where is the like button?

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The boats aren't right for sure. It's like sailing a club 420 around the world.

 

where is the like button?

sure seems like a lot of water over the deck in moderate conditions

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Less water than the 70's I reckon.

No huge following seas to contend with yet. There'll be plenty over the bows in the right (wrong) conditions I expect.

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watching the Spanish video it is obvious that Mapfre was surprised by Vestas. Apptly they did not see them coming, which is surprising to me.

 

Yeh - I guess IM was standing on the stb quarter testing for a rocky bottom. </sarcasm>

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its bullshit, were V 2 boatlengths to leeward when the overlap was made, if not then no luffing rights. You cannot tell anything from these videos.

2nd the comment above saying J1 and CO, a code zero is not an assymetric kite guys !!!

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its bullshit, were V 2 boatlengths to leeward when the overlap was made, if not then no luffing rights.

1) they were overlapped the whole time

2) try looking up proper course.

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watching the Spanish video it is obvious that Mapfre was surprised by Vestas. Apptly they did not see them coming, which is surprising to me.

 

Yeh - I guess IM was standing on the stb quarter testing for a rocky bottom. </sarcasm>

 

yeah, that's true, but looking at the OBR coming out of the hatch at the last minute, looking a bit lost, it makes me think there was no warning for him until the very last minute. Vestas had the OBR filming way in advance. All the filming from Mapfre comes from the fixed camera that films all the time. And then the crew member Fonseca comments about Vestas luffing them purposely sounded like whining. I really think Mapfre was busy sacking Lunven that they missed the whole Vestas approach... </sarcasm> ;-)

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hey guys!!! anybody listening?

I know you really enjoy discussing this kinda rules stuff.

 

BUT THIS HERE IS JUST A JOKE!

 

I hear Chirs Nicholson saying:

"Hey media man, get the cam out right now. We'll do a little mid atlandic luffing for mapfre and pull the red flag and signal them to circle and all that. The guys on the Sailing Anarchy formus will discuss this over several pages in their forums.

What sad jerks!

Ha ha ha"

 

Ok, that last sentence he didn't actually say.

But its true. Sadly ... :(

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From the MAPFRE video, the boats certainly like to to sniff a bit in pretty flat conditions.

What do you mean by "sniff a bit"?

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