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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  

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I like the idea of the Rock, with its great sailing tradition. Challenging N Atlantic sailing made for serious mariners (like you Kiwis) -- ever since they staggered ashore from the Sea Venture, impaled 10 miles offshore in a Tempest 4 centuries ago (yes, Willy wrote The Play about that wreck). Those storm-wracked coral heads have sunk hundreds, and would be hard on the AC foils!

 

It's fresh to frightening much of the time... Fond memories of everything from white knuckle Race Week Finn skiffing in Great Sound as a 140# sweaterpackless youngster back in '71, to the old squall-bashed Laser (and me) being blown through the reefs toward the Azores, to riding surprise hurricanes getting to and from.

 

Can you still refill your own rum bottle at Goslings?

 

DKHT

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AARRRGGGHHHHH!!

 

Yet another article touting the Bermuda 'time zone is friendly to the European TV audience'

 

Racing in Bermuda in early afternoon will put the time in Europe smack in the middle of prime time (1400 start = 1900 in mainland Europe)

 

So who is living under the delusion that a tiny niche sport like sailing can compete in prime time??? NO channel with any reach will pick it up for live transmission under those circumstances.

 

The few channels picking it up will most probably restrict it to selected highlights late at night, and probably get exclusivity as well, blocking live streaming for their regiion, leaving a very unsatisfying viewing experience for the few that really want to follow the thing...

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Alpha pull your head out.

 

Ben Ainslie will be in prime time and sky or beeb will pay. Same with France3 or Eurosport if Franck makes it. Same with Torborn. Will they pay enough to cover the costs of production? Unlikely. But there is no question that Europe will care a lot, at least until their home team is knocked out.

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NO channel with any reach will pick it up for live transmission under those circumstances.[/size]

No prime channel, possibly. There are an awful lot of channels these days. There are also an increasing number of people who can watch streaming video on TV e.g. https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/3230451?hl=en-GB

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Alpha pull your head out.

 

Ben Ainslie will be in prime time and sky or beeb will pay. Same with France3 or Eurosport if Franck makes it. Same with Torborn. Will they pay enough to cover the costs of production? Unlikely. But there is no question that Europe will care a lot, at least until their home team is knocked out.

There's no way that Ben will displace the nightly soaps at 8 - and even if they are on different channels, the viewing audience will be reduced because of that (the Mrs will insist on her daily dosis of Eastenders, Neighbours, X factor and what not)

 

I will admit it is a pet hate of mine because of the specific circumstances of the market I live in, Belgium. We have great access to major foreign channels (BBC1, BBC2, France 1 to 3, etc.) but much less to the secondary and commercial channels. Local channels have NO interest in any sports beyond football and cycling.

 

Considering that major broadcasters then also often restrict access to live streaming when they buy the broadcasting rights, my chances of being able to follow the action are reduced.

 

I was spoiled with AC34 - I watched the first couple of weeks from the shore in SF, but could follow the conclusion perfectly through the youtube livestream (as well as the ACWS, which I followed as much as I could)

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If this is true, it could be the worst thing that's happened to Bermuda in a good, long while. The past 15 years has been a terrible time for that British Independent Overseas Territory; rampant (for a place like Bermuda) crime, a terrible economy, thuggish unions destroying the Islands' sterling reputation as a wonderful tourist destination, sky-high prices on, well, everything, and the total inability of the Islands' transportation infrastructure to handle the tourist population that it has now, even before the influx of Cup visitors. The government is corrupt, broken and divided, the population angry and resentful, and the situation keeps getting worse.

 

This will prove to be one of two things: A triumphant return to greatness, or a well-publicized disaster for an already tottering country. I love the place, having spent a great deal of time there, starting in 1976, and want nothing but the best for Bermuda, but I'm afraid that the latter scenario is far more likely than the former.

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Similar, but in the WSJ:

 

http://online.wsj.com/articles/oracle-team-usa-picks-bermuda-for-2017-americas-cup-1416535667

 

from there

--

 

San Diego appeared to have all the advantages: It held the event in the 1980s and 1990s, where Dennis Conner famously sailed the yacht Stars and Stripes. It was home to Jimmy Spithill, the Oracle team’s skipper, and just an hour’s flight from Ellison’s home. And it was in America.

Bermuda won essentially because it offered a better deal, including lower taxes than San Diego. The final venue “will be decided mainly on commercial considerations,” said Russell Coutts, the chief executive of Oracle Team USA, in an interview last month.

Traditionally, wealthy individuals such as Ellison have supported the America’s Cup, which is held roughly three to five years. The Cup winners are responsible for organizing the next Cup.

Coutts said one of his top priorities was making the Cup sustainable, without relying on wealthy individuals. He said that meant finding corporate sponsors to support the event. Harvey Schiller, the Cup’s commercial commissioner, said in an interview last month that the corporate sponsors would want maximum exposure on television, on the racecourse and at the port facilities near the actual event.

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It's tough to beat $30 million in cash and tax-free status for everybody...

 

not tax free for everybody...

 

in most cases, American citizens and holders of American Green Cards, will still have to pay US income tax on their earnings in Bermuda.

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Maybe these potential TV visuals might have helped. I remember being enthralled with the water color in Freemantle in 1987.

 

Paradise Lakes

 

532927_593325530772848_53012161532051457

 

Hamilton Harbour

 

10462577_531312493640819_287274379700505

 

Morgan Point and Great Sound

 

923564_508375039267898_30722993815415524

 

 

Dockyard with cruise ship and Great Sound beyond

 

10452371_539215256183876_276483809603555

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It's tough to beat $30 million in cash and tax-free status for everybody...

 

not tax free for everybody...

 

in most cases, American citizens and holders of American Green Cards, will still have to pay US income tax on their earnings in Bermuda.

 

Minor inconvenience. Not many Americans involved.

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So racing while I am at work......again.

 

Freo was OK, come home, quick bite to eat, nap time, TV and VCR on at 11:00, racing til 2-3am. Back to bed, go to work, repeat.

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If this is true, it could be the worst thing that's happened to Bermuda in a good, long while. The past 15 years has been a terrible time for that British Independent Overseas Territory; rampant (for a place like Bermuda) crime, a terrible economy, thuggish unions destroying the Islands' sterling reputation as a wonderful tourist destination, sky-high prices on, well, everything, and the total inability of the Islands' transportation infrastructure to handle the tourist population that it has now, even before the influx of Cup visitors. The government is corrupt, broken and divided, the population angry and resentful, and the situation keeps getting worse.

 

This will prove to be one of two things: A triumphant return to greatness, or a well-publicized disaster for an already tottering country. I love the place, having spent a great deal of time there, starting in 1976, and want nothing but the best for Bermuda, but I'm afraid that the latter scenario is far more likely than the former.

Archivist,

 

Everyone is entitled to literary license, but your comments on Bermuda lack real accuracy, I know all the points you are making, but you have taken the most negative position on all of them, And the last 15 years have not been terrible, Bermuda tends to feel economic downturns a little later if anything. if Bermuda does get the Cup, yes it will be a challenge, but I think that the country is up to it and will deliver as needed.

 

On the tax free status, it is true ,companies with offices in Bermuda do not pay corporate tax as such, individuals do not pay income tax either, but are still subject to the laws of their own country and the requirements of residency that determine tax status. Likely that many participants can structure their "employment" to make them non-taxable in their own jurisdiction, but it will require some clever thinking to make it work, as pointed out, Americans get screwed as they are taxed on worldwide income...

 

Floater - July and August are pretty well the worst months for sailing in Bermuda as the Bermuda - Azores high tends to keep winds light ( 8-10 its ) and temperatures hot. September October tend to produce pretty good sailing weather, but nothing is a slam dunk....hurricane just experienced in October !

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Cruise Ships spoiled the Bermuda that I remember and loved!

 

Throttle pegged WFO on the scooter, back to RBYC from Swizzle Inn, at closing time, woo hoo!!

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Something I'd been curious about, included by RG in a recent article:

 

"In terms of placement in TV time zones, Bermuda does well, with a 2.00pm race start being 7.00am in NZ, 10.00am on West Coast of USA, 6.00pm in Britain and 7.00pm in Italy (all current times and will move for daylight saving in June/July). "

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Something I'd been curious about, included by RG in a recent article:

 

"In terms of placement in TV time zones, Bermuda does well, with a 2.00pm race start being 7.00am in NZ, 10.00am on West Coast of USA, 6.00pm in Britain and 7.00pm in Italy (all current times and will move for daylight saving in June/July). "

 

Perfect for EU, not so perfect for USA. And Kiwistan will lose a lot of its productivity again.

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Something I'd been curious about, included by RG in a recent article:

 

"In terms of placement in TV time zones, Bermuda does well, with a 2.00pm race start being 7.00am in NZ, 10.00am on West Coast of USA, 6.00pm in Britain and 7.00pm in Italy (all current times and will move for daylight saving in June/July). "

Perfect for EU, not so perfect for USA. And Kiwistan will lose a lot of its productivity again.

Am a little surprised at the time in Kiwistan, wasn't it around that same time for the races in SF?

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Something I'd been curious about, included by RG in a recent article:

 

"In terms of placement in TV time zones, Bermuda does well, with a 2.00pm race start being 7.00am in NZ, 10.00am on West Coast of USA, 6.00pm in Britain and 7.00pm in Italy (all current times and will move for daylight saving in June/July). "

Perfect for EU, not so perfect for USA. And Kiwistan will lose a lot of its productivity again.

Am a little surprised at the time in Kiwistan, wasn't it around that same time for the races in SF?

 

Oh, haven't calculated that...

 

Bermuda +13h = Kiwistan, not taking DST into account.

2pm + 13h = 3am the next morning, right? Calls for a strong coffee.

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This is EXACTLY why the StFYC told Ellison to stuff it. If I were a member of the GGYC I'd be so pissed off I wouldn't be able to see straight.

 

What I DO NOT understand is why NO ONE from ANY sailing media outlet has found anyone at all from the GGYC willing to talk, on or off the record.

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Well, I can't imagine why an ordinary person would ever want to join the GGYC at this point. Unless he just wanted to toady Mr. Ellison.

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Well, I can't imagine why an ordinary person would ever want to join the GGYC at this point. Unless he just wanted to toady Mr. Ellison.

Amazing how belonging to this club may at one time have been a source of pride and now a badge of infamy

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This is EXACTLY why the StFYC told Ellison to stuff it. If I were a member of the GGYC I'd be so pissed off I wouldn't be able to see straight.

 

What I DO NOT understand is why NO ONE from ANY sailing media outlet has found anyone at all from the GGYC willing to talk, on or off the record.

It's not hard to explain - just ask Ehman.

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This is EXACTLY why the StFYC told Ellison to stuff it. If I were a member of the GGYC I'd be so pissed off I wouldn't be able to see straight.

What I DO NOT understand is why NO ONE from ANY sailing media outlet has found anyone at all from the GGYC willing to talk, on or off the record.

It's not hard to explain - just ask Ehman.
You're a member, let's ask you...how fucked up is your pre nup? And Tom, we know you lurk...

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This is EXACTLY why the StFYC told Ellison to stuff it. If I were a member of the GGYC I'd be so pissed off I wouldn't be able to see straight.

What I DO NOT understand is why NO ONE from ANY sailing media outlet has found anyone at all from the GGYC willing to talk, on or off the record.

It's not hard to explain - just ask Ehman.
You're a member, let's ask you...how fucked up is your pre nup?

And I deferred to Ehman who is on the board and also reads the forums and stays in touch with a few here, but certainly not me. I wouldn't play his political games two years ago when requested, and never will. Not into politics, just sailing.

 

I'm sure he'll come forward any day now., with nothing current or meaningful as usual.

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So, are you saying that the entire membership of the GGYC is under a gag order?

 

You would gag too if you were sucking that hard on Larry's golden cock

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This is EXACTLY why the StFYC told Ellison to stuff it. If I were a member of the GGYC I'd be so pissed off I wouldn't be able to see straight.

What I DO NOT understand is why NO ONE from ANY sailing media outlet has found anyone at all from the GGYC willing to talk, on or off the record.

It's not hard to explain - just ask Ehman.
You're a member, let's ask you...how fucked up is your pre nup?

And I deferred to Ehman who is on the board and also reads the forums and stays in touch with a few here, but certainly not me. I wouldn't play his political games two years ago when requested, and never will. Not into politics, just sailing.

 

I'm sure he'll come forward any day now., with nothing current or meaningful as usual.

 

What was requested of you?

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This is EXACTLY why the StFYC told Ellison to stuff it. If I were a member of the GGYC I'd be so pissed off I wouldn't be able to see straight.

 

What I DO NOT understand is why NO ONE from ANY sailing media outlet has found anyone at all from the GGYC willing to talk, on or off the record.

 

they got the cup they deserved.

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Aside from SWS, is there another GGYC member posting here? or somebody with close link with some members? I think Dixie is a member too?

This silence is strange.

If I well understood on 5 votes at least 3 voted for BDA: Ellison, Coutts and Ehman ? and the others ?

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This is just soooooo fucked up. Done with Oracle. Will maybe watch the replays some time much later. Very ashamed now to have been a fan.

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So, are you saying that the entire membership of the GGYC is under a gag order?

Do you folks seriously think RC and LE sit down with all club members every week to discuss everything that's going on ?

 

Really ???

 

And in terms of "gag orders" you can see how well they work.

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Aside from SWS, is there another GGYC member posting here? or somebody with close link with some members? I think Dixie is a member too?

This silence is strange.

If I well understood on 5 votes at least 3 voted for BDA: Ellison, Coutts and Ehman ? and the others ?

What you think is usually wrong - hell you thought Dixie was a guy :)

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This is EXACTLY why the StFYC told Ellison to stuff it. If I were a member of the GGYC I'd be so pissed off I wouldn't be able to see straight.

What I DO NOT understand is why NO ONE from ANY sailing media outlet has found anyone at all from the GGYC willing to talk, on or off the record.

It's not hard to explain - just ask Ehman.
You're a member, let's ask you...how fucked up is your pre nup?

And I deferred to Ehman who is on the board and also reads the forums and stays in touch with a few here, but certainly not me. I wouldn't play his political games two years ago when requested, and never will. Not into politics, just sailing.

 

I'm sure he'll come forward any day now., with nothing current or meaningful as usual.

 

What was requested of you?

What, did you lose the post ?

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Aside from SWS, is there another GGYC member posting here? or somebody with close link with some members? I think Dixie is a member too?

This silence is strange.

If I well understood on 5 votes at least 3 voted for BDA: Ellison, Coutts and Ehman ? and the others ?

What you think is usually wrong - hell you thought Dixie was a guy

Don't worry, I communicated with her, nice person :)

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why should GGYC members be upset?

No more than anyone else that would want to see AC35 raced on the SF Bay.

 

Breaking news for those unaware (all here obviously) the venue selection is not put up for a vote to all members. It probably never was when other clubs considered other options as well, but apparently that's too difficult a concept to understand.

 

Sorry folks, pursue other issues for your daily dose of AC drama - this one is stillborne.

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^ I think you'll find that whole "GGYC votes on the venue" thing is just someone's fantasy. A quick skim of the 35th Prot shows that their Commodore signed over the venue selection lock stock and barrel to ACEA a year ago.

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This is EXACTLY why the StFYC told Ellison to stuff it. If I were a member of the GGYC I'd be so pissed off I wouldn't be able to see straight.

 

What I DO NOT understand is why NO ONE from ANY sailing media outlet has found anyone at all from the GGYC willing to talk, on or off the record.

 

they got the cup they deserved.

 

 

Yep they got the cup and LE and RC

 

Two guys, one cup! :wacko:

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why should GGYC members be upset?

No more than anyone else that would want to see AC35 raced on the SF Bay.

 

Breaking news for those unaware (all here obviously) the venue selection is not put up for a vote to all members. It probably never was when other clubs considered other options as well, but apparently that's too difficult a concept to understand.

 

Sorry folks, pursue other issues for your daily dose of AC drama - this one is stillborne.

 

well, since the government and citizens of SF didn't really give a damn about AC34, and didn't really want AC35.., I don't see how anyone can be upset with LE.

 

and, I really doubt the membership of GGYC expected that they were going to be consulted about the issue

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from the day BDA was floated as a possible venue.., i said that the main reason i thought it might not work was the logistical issues for the teams - but if they think they can make it work, i am perfectly happy for it to be there.

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Something I'd been curious about, included by RG in a recent article:

 

"In terms of placement in TV time zones, Bermuda does well, with a 2.00pm race start being 7.00am in NZ, 10.00am on West Coast of USA, 6.00pm in Britain and 7.00pm in Italy (all current times and will move for daylight saving in June/July). "

 

Perfect for EU, not so perfect for USA. And Kiwistan will lose a lot of its productivity again.

While 7pm seems fine, I didnt have any problems with the SF time either though (Usually 9PM-ish).

KL makes it sound like Bermuda is a wrong choice for some reason, seems like a sailing and TV paradise to me.

 

By RG

 

"Imagine the outcry here, if Team New Zealand won the America's Cup and then decided after 15 months that they would hold the Defence in Australia."

http://www.sail-world.com/USA/Gladwells-Line:-The-Americas-Cup-is-now-Bermudas-Cup?/129284

They would cry so hard, they would choke!

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^ Interesting point and one I was thinking about when reading the audit of ETNZ and the cost to the taxpayer of a challenge. The one aspect that they seemed to have overlooked (maybe they were not born when NZ held the cup ;) ) was that the real payback comes when they host the event in Auckland again. You have to be willing to chuck in a few extra bucks in the hope that will work out eventually and not just enough to pay for the ads on the sails!

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why should GGYC members be upset?

 

No more than anyone else that would want to see AC35 raced on the SF Bay.

 

Breaking news for those unaware (all here obviously) the venue selection is not put up for a vote to all members. It probably never was when other clubs considered other options as well, but apparently that's too difficult a concept to understand.

 

Sorry folks, pursue other issues for your daily dose of AC drama - this one is stillborne.

well, since the government and citizens of SF didn't really give a damn about AC34, and didn't really want AC35.., I don't see how anyone can be upset with LE.

 

and, I really doubt the membership of GGYC expected that they were going to be consulted about the issue

just a reminder that most of the sf bay area (and sailors, boats) are not in sf. Many travelled into sf to build the case for ac34 in sf. Don't recall a similar call to arms to build a case for ac35 in sf or sf bay area. Was there one?

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Jeeze - un-bloody-believable.

Coutts, you are a sodding moron.

What a complete twat.

Bermuda?

Absolutely kicking the USA in the nuts.

Very clear and precise statement that there are no waters good enough in the US to hold the America's Cup.

Rape and pillage without getting his pecker out and nicking stuff.

Any respect I had for the guy is totally gone now.

Out the door, munted, moved on, snuffed, karked out, dead as a bloody doornail.

The man must have the IQ of a bloody dead rat.

 

Okay - rant over.

 

It's just that I do rather question his judgement on this one, in case you didn't catch my drift.

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Something I'd been curious about, included by RG in a recent article:

 

"In terms of placement in TV time zones, Bermuda does well, with a 2.00pm race start being 7.00am in NZ, 10.00am on West Coast of USA, 6.00pm in Britain and 7.00pm in Italy (all current times and will move for daylight saving in June/July). "

 

Perfect for EU, not so perfect for USA. And Kiwistan will lose a lot of its productivity again.

While 7pm seems fine, I didnt have any problems with the SF time either though (Usually 9PM-ish).

KL makes it sound like Bermuda is a wrong choice for some reason, seems like a sailing and TV paradise to me.

 

>By RG

 

"Imagine the outcry here, if Team New Zealand won the America's Cup and then decided after 15 months that they would hold the Defence in Australia."

http://www.sail-world.com/USA/Gladwells-Line:-The-Americas-Cup-is-now-Bermudas-Cup?/129284

They would cry so hard, they would choke!

 

Damn skippy we would! I wouldn't be able to watch

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IMHO, there are two major negative and one positive to Bermuda over SD.

 

the major positive for Bermuda is the physical sailing. it will look gooooooooooood in person and also on TV. It's will be a perfect backdrop to some icy cold revenge on OTUSA (I hope!).

 

The first major negative is the history and protocol issues surrounding choosing a venue that is outside the defenders country. I mean, seriously, the US is not landlocked like Switzerland. So ACEA/Larry/Russell are telling me that of all the many miles of US coastline, none of it was suitable for holding a large regatta?????? get off the fence mate, you just want extra money to line your pockets while disregarding the history and dignity of the AC. You are all a disgrace, and the sooner someone can take the Cup off you, the better!

 

The second issue for Bermuda is that for the Commercial teams, Bermuda makes no business sense. Now, I know that 99% of people watch it on TV and Bermuda's time zones are pretty good for most relevant countries, but it makes the battle for commercial teams just that little but more difficult. I am bias as I want TNZ to get a good budget and have a partnership with the NZ govt in order to leverage business in the States, but I think the point still stands. Bermuda is harder for the teams without a benevolent dictator billionaire.

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By RG

 

"Imagine the outcry here, if Team New Zealand won the America's Cup and then decided after 15 months that they would hold the Defence in Australia."

http://www.sail-world.com/USA/Gladwells-Line:-The-Americas-Cup-is-now-Bermudas-Cup?/129284

RPYC missed their chance to take it to Singapore - guess they just got stuck hosting it locally.

 

Maybe RNZYS can leverage an Emirate next time around.

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IMHO, there are two major negative and one positive to Bermuda over SD.

 

the major positive for Bermuda is the physical sailing. it will look gooooooooooood in person and also on TV. It's will be a perfect backdrop to some icy cold revenge on OTUSA (I hope!).

 

The first major negative is the history and protocol issues surrounding choosing a venue that is outside the defenders country. I mean, seriously, the US is not landlocked like Switzerland. So ACEA/Larry/Russell are telling me that of all the many miles of US coastline, none of it was suitable for holding a large regatta?????? get off the fence mate, you just want extra money to line your pockets while disregarding the history and dignity of the AC. You are all a disgrace, and the sooner someone can take the Cup off you, the better!

 

The second issue for Bermuda is that for the Commercial teams, Bermuda makes no business sense. Now, I know that 99% of people watch it on TV and Bermuda's time zones are pretty good for most relevant countries, but it makes the battle for commercial teams just that little but more difficult. I am bias as I want TNZ to get a good budget and have a partnership with the NZ govt in order to leverage business in the States, but I think the point still stands. Bermuda is harder for the teams without a benevolent dictator billionaire.

+1

 

It's been noted that when ACEA says "commercialization" - they mean: Line our personal pockets, fuck the challengers.

 

And it's glaringly obvious for anyone to see. We are the holders of the cup - Team USA - GGYC - but we choose instead to host in the tax free haven of the fancy class: Bermuda. WTF.

 

Somebody else used the word travesty. Travesty is the word.

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Floater: Travesty is the word I was missing! I cannot fathom how stupid it all is, if true.

 

I have been watching the 1995 Cup wrap up show on youtube, and it makes me pine for the old days of pure regatta management and everyone else watching on TV, which today is a darn sight better than it was in 1995, both the graphics and the race management!!!

 

IMHO, Bermuda will be nice to watch, but a disaster for the Cup as a piece of history. It will be yet another ugly footnote.

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why should GGYC members be upset?

No more than anyone else that would want to see AC35 raced on the SF Bay.

 

Breaking news for those unaware (all here obviously) the venue selection is not put up for a vote to all members. It probably never was when other clubs considered other options as well, but apparently that's too difficult a concept to understand.

 

Sorry folks, pursue other issues for your daily dose of AC drama - this one is stillborne.

well, since the government and citizens of SF didn't really give a damn about AC34, and didn't really want AC35.., I don't see how anyone can be upset with LE.

 

and, I really doubt the membership of GGYC expected that they were going to be consulted about the issue

just a reminder that most of the sf bay area (and sailors, boats) are not in sf. Many travelled into sf to build the case for ac34 in sf. Don't recall a similar call to arms to build a case for ac35 in sf or sf bay area. Was there one?

Never had a chance Bob, countts money tossed SF out of the running from the outset.

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Jeeze - un-bloody-believable.

Coutts, you are a sodding moron.

What a complete twat.

Bermuda?

Absolutely kicking the USA in the nuts.

Very clear and precise statement that there are no waters good enough in the US to hold the America's Cup.

Rape and pillage without getting his pecker out and nicking stuff.

Any respect I had for the guy is totally gone now.

Out the door, munted, moved on, snuffed, karked out, dead as a bloody doornail.

The man must have the IQ of a bloody dead rat.

 

Okay - rant over.

 

It's just that I do rather question his judgement on this one, in case you didn't catch my drift.

Nice rant but it's in the wrong universe, which I suspect you already know.

 

It's about commercial sustainability in case you haven't been able to figure that out over the past year and thousands of posts.

 

Not that I agree, but that's certainly not the point.

 

You'd be better off just saying you hate RC, call him a traitor and be done with it.

 

Being open and honest is not that hard, unless you make it so.

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IMHO, there are two major negative and one positive to Bermuda over SD.

 

the major positive for Bermuda is the physical sailing. it will look gooooooooooood in person and also on TV. It's will be a perfect backdrop to some icy cold revenge on OTUSA (I hope!).

 

The first major negative is the history and protocol issues surrounding choosing a venue that is outside the defenders country. I mean, seriously, the US is not landlocked like Switzerland. So ACEA/Larry/Russell are telling me that of all the many miles of US coastline, none of it was suitable for holding a large regatta?????? get off the fence mate, you just want extra money to line your pockets while disregarding the history and dignity of the AC. You are all a disgrace, and the sooner someone can take the Cup off you, the better!

 

The second issue for Bermuda is that for the Commercial teams, Bermuda makes no business sense. Now, I know that 99% of people watch it on TV and Bermuda's time zones are pretty good for most relevant countries, but it makes the battle for commercial teams just that little but more difficult. I am bias as I want TNZ to get a good budget and have a partnership with the NZ govt in order to leverage business in the States, but I think the point still stands. Bermuda is harder for the teams without a benevolent dictator billionaire.

Well I agree for the commercial team in NZ, but not sure this is true for the commercial teams (BAR and Team France) in Europe. Bermuda is a direct flight from London, and time zone will work well for European TV times. It is a great spot to bring sponsors, and will give great TV visuals. Seems like a good deal for European sponsors to me..

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Bermuda is a great location for east coast sailors who want to go see the cup.

 

shorter flight, cheaper flight, don't know about SD but in my experience BDA hotels are cheaper than SF...

 

Sure, hotel rates may go up for the finals, but there are plenty of mid-range hotel rooms and apt's in BDA. Some people complain that BDA hotel amenities and service is not up to par, but I don't care about that kind of thing.

 

non-sailing spouse can go to the beach, and you can do the same, or play golf/tennis it it's not windy enough for racing.

 

restaurants are generally not great in Bermuda, and can be a bit overpriced.

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The second issue for Bermuda is that for the Commercial teams

It makes it harder for TNZ. Not obvious that the same applies to Team France and BAR. Versus SD it is a better timezone, more attractive backdrop for TV and much, much more accessible as somewhere to take European-based VIPs. Plus presumably all the teams are going to benefit from tax breaks.

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I think many of you have no idea how taxes are structured if you think there will be major benefits for anyone but the organisers.

 

Feel free to explain your theories though...

 

ETNZ are the big losers by this decision - and that may well have been the point.

 

Who wouldn't want control of an event, to charge the entrants most of the costs of running it, to bring in weak newby teams each time and then to invent rules and chose locations that make things difficult/impossible for anyone who has the temerity to threaten your dominance/control?

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I think many of you have no idea how taxes are structured if you think there will be major benefits for anyone but the organisers.

 

Please elaborate

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I think many of you have no idea how taxes are structured if you think there will be major benefits for anyone but the organisers.

If it was in SD, AFAIK if you are an "alien" working in the USA on a green card, you pay US income tax. In Bermuda, not. Therefore either team members will benefit or teams will benefit (reduce salaries) or, probably, a bit of both.

 

So, explain why I'm wrong.

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You mention income tax - are you familiar then with the income tax rules for citizens of Italy, France, China, NZ, Australia, UK, Sweden +++?

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UK, yes, I am one of the lucky ones who has to complete a tax return. You haven't answered my question.

 

You can answer it yourself (for that one tax jurisdiction anyway) - how would a few months in Bermuda and other locations around the globe while working for BAR (for example) alter your tax status?

 

Then do the research on each country in which any AC sailor or travelling team member is tax resident. Then you'd be in a position to say how Bermuda's tax deal with ACEA (you've seen it, right?!) will benefit them as opposed to the organisers.

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IIRC the challengers unanimously voiced displeasure with Bermuda. To the extent of "we will not go there"!

 

But at that point SF was believed to be still in the mix...

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UK, yes, I am one of the lucky ones who has to complete a tax return. You haven't answered my question.

You can answer it yourself (for that one tax jurisdiction anyway) - how would a few months in Bermuda and other locations around the globe while working for BAR (for example) alter your tax status?

 

Then do the research on each country in which any AC sailor or travelling team member is tax resident. Then you'd be in a position to say how Bermuda's tax deal with ACEA (you've seen it, right?!) will benefit them as opposed to the organisers.

 

 

Thanks for the project. You were the one telling us we didn't understand international tax.

 

AFAIK if you are non-resident in the UK for 6 months (183 days), you don't have to pay UK tax. Unlike the USA, UK citizens are not necessarily liable to pay UK tax on income earned abroad.

 

Betcha young Ben is in Bermuda for 184 days.

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IIRC the challengers unanimously voiced displeasure with Bermuda. To the extent of "we will not go there"!

Nope, nobody has said that.

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A few months? If you think this is about a few months, you have not been paying attention.

 

Sure? Per tax year?

 

Do you also claim to know the 'non-resident for tax purposes' requirements for each person involved then?

 

The world is simpler than I thought.

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Here are the 'resident for tax purposes' regulations for New Zealand. It seems that it would be almost impossible for a Kiwi member of ETNZ to avoid paying New Zealand income tax on earnings in Bermuda (unless they and their family genuinely did leave the country for good and sold all property in New Zealand). It seems that even RC and JS would have to pay income tax in New Zealand (net of foreign tax credits, of course). According to the regulations: "As long as you have a permanent place of abode in New Zealand you’ll always be a resident".

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This is EXACTLY why the StFYC told Ellison to stuff it. If I were a member of the GGYC I'd be so pissed off I wouldn't be able to see straight.

What I DO NOT understand is why NO ONE from ANY sailing media outlet has found anyone at all from the GGYC willing to talk, on or off the record.

 

they got the cup they deserved.

 

Yep they got the cup and LE and RC

 

Two guys, one cup! :wacko:

At least " That Pic " from DAGO with the girls and the cup is lost forever

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Posted on TE's FB page, good link

 

--

 

MUST SEE video clip (at least for AC fans, especially those of you in SD): a five-minute segment from today's KUSI-TV Sunday Morning show with SDYC Commodore Chuck Sinks, who was informative, gracious and a great ambassador for the sport and SD sailing in explaining the latest Cup news.John Laun III, Troy Sears, Malin Burnham, Chuck Nichols, and others involved with the SD bid committee should be very proud despite the obvious disappointment, according to Bernie Wilson's AP scoop of a couple days ago, of AC35 going to Bermuda — a country, Commodore Sinks politely pointed out, that is nice but much smaller than San Diego....

http://www.kusi.com/clip/10882131/americas-cup-2017

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Posted on TE's FB page, good link

 

--

 

MUST SEE video clip (at least for AC fans, especially those of you in SD): a five-minute segment from today's KUSI-TV Sunday Morning show with SDYC Commodore Chuck Sinks, who was informative, gracious and a great ambassador for the sport and SD sailing in explaining the latest Cup news.John Laun III, Troy Sears, Malin Burnham, Chuck Nichols, and others involved with the SD bid committee should be very proud despite the obvious disappointment, according to Bernie Wilson's AP scoop of a couple days ago, of AC35 going to Bermuda — a country, Commodore Sinks politely pointed out, that is nice but much smaller than San Diego....

http://www.kusi.com/clip/10882131/americas-cup-2017

 

 

but the sailing area (in bermuda) is larger!

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The tax savings for individuals such as sailors and shore crew have a lot to do with California's high state income taxes, which are payable even by non-resident foreign nationals. Countries with tax treaties with the US generally do not give you credit on your home-country national income taxes for California state income taxes paid.

 

As simplistic examples, it you had $100,000 in taxable income earned in California last year as a single person, you would owe the State of California about $7,000, on top of whatever your US federal income tax obligations might be. If you had $500,000 in taxable California income, you would have owed almost $50,000 to the state.

 

For teams which established long-term training bases in CA last time--Artemis and Oracle, for example--the state tax hit on individuals could be significant, especially for higher earners like the sailors and top shore crew.

 

Bermuda has no personal income tax.

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By KL, who concludes with:

 

--

By a hair, Ellison and Coutts get more runway for their experiment.

It’s not outlandish to guess that AC35 is Rusell’s last dance. If, in Bermuda, he can best enrich his already well-lined pockets while securing a workable new future for the Cup, his personal legacy is secure. Since 1995 we have been living in the Russell Coutts era of America’s Cup. We just didn’t know it for a while.

If the experiment comes a’cropper, history will remember that, too.

--

America’s Cup, Whither Away?

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