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PaulinVictoria

Team Vestas grounded

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...I really think you guys are getting down to needless semantics...I,,,we,,,he,,,they,,,,us,,,,indeed! :wacko:

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...I really think you guys are getting down to needless semantics...I,,,we,,,,indeed! :wacko:

I don't think words are left to chance at this point.

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Now we wait for nico to say he's ultimately responsible & he blames himself.

 

Then there will be a press release from VOLVO to say they didn't plan to open the area up & in hindsight they shouldn't have etc etc

Spot on. One thing's for sure, after only midway through the second Leg, the VOR is living up to its reputation.

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.

....I'm sure they're all taking equal servings of crow pie ...there's no 'I' in 'team' afterall.

 

...how much responsibility should VO take for opening up that area so late?

 

...how much responsibility should we as vocal spectators take for demanding a full on game that pushes sailors to beyond such limits?

 

...let's look at the circumstances that built the situation.

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.

....I'm sure they're all taking equal servings of crow pie ...there's no 'I' in 'team' afterall.

 

...how much responsibility should VO take for opening up that area so late?

 

...how much responsibility should we as vocal spectators take for demanding a full on game that pushes sailors to beyond such limits?

 

...let's look at the circumstances that built the situation.

Beyond limits? Have you seen the deck games and Chinese lessons going on?

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With everyone pointing at Wouter, I think he made it clear that more than one person is looking at the screens and that neither one of them, or none of them, saw the reef - for whatever reason which is yet to be determined.

 

Wouter said "we" but that doesn't necessarily mean shit, and it's a little ridiculous for you to be parsing words like that. First, english is his third or fourth language. Second, he's been on a rock for three days and now he's on a slightly more luxurious rock. He still has no possessions. And he is closer to his team than he ever has been. So yeah, he's gonna use "we" for a lot of things that you might not.

 

He seemed to accept the responsibility very damned well, and I don't see shit in the way of excuses. What I do see is a guy that genuinely addressed the questioning and criticism he saw online, answering the question exactly the way a sailor would hope he would, and seeking to learn more.

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Was that the Argentinian Cicchetti at the helm? Poor bastard. Sickening to watch.

Pretty full disclose, I'd say. And the comment at the very end by Nicholson pretty much places the (fault) on one person, paraphrasing - like in any organization, you have put a certain amount of trust in every individual, and this is where the breakdown happened. Taking responsibility, but letting it known it wasn't his mistake.

What do you guys think of the comments? Any way you slice it, he is throwing the navigator under the bus. Appropriate or bad form?

 

I know no Spanish other than Taco or Fajita, but if you know Chris Nicholson, he'll throw himself under the bus before anyone else.

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.

....I'm sure they're all taking equal servings of crow pie ...there's no 'I' in 'team' afterall.

 

...how much responsibility should VO take for opening up that area so late?

 

...how much responsibility should we as vocal spectators take for demanding a full on game that pushes sailors to beyond such limits?

 

...let's look at the circumstances that built the situation.

Beyond limits? Have you seen the deck games and Chinese lessons going on?

.

...not the same on saturday night,was it?

 

 

...it's sad to think the guys are sitting in Madagascar reading this Chit

........I hope they've got some decent swill and are having a good laugh at least. <_<

 

.....hi Nico! Wouter rout'er wrongo? ...what would'a Dingo Do? :rolleyes:

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Now we wait for nico to say he's ultimately responsible & he blames himself.

 

Then there will be a press release from VOLVO to say they didn't plan to open the area up & in hindsight they shouldn't have etc etc

 

You say this like there is something wrong with it, and there's a level of unwillingness I don't understand at all both here and on Facebook to accept people's straight up apologies and admissions and explanations.

 

I cannot remember the last time this kind of admission of guilt happened in our sport, which is often plagued by the exact opposite.

 

If Volvo was imprudent to change the course, and Nico was imprudent to not double check Wouter, why the fuck wouldn't they admit it? And way, way more importantly, what is wrong with admitting it? Would you rather they pull an Artemis?

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I am amazed at some of the "experts" on this site who have clearly never ever made a mistake on a boat.

The Vesta guys are great yachties and yes they made an error, but shit happens at sea.

I am sure you will reply with "they are professionals...blah blah" however professional doctors/pilots/engineers make mistakes too

A bit of empathy wouldn't go amiss

 

ateam, why don't you change your title to "a.hole"

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With everyone pointing at Wouter, I think he made it clear that more than one person is looking at the screens and that neither one of them, or none of them, saw the reef - for whatever reason which is yet to be determined.

Wouter said "we" but that doesn't necessarily mean shit, and it's a little ridiculous for you to be parsing words like that. First, english is his third or fourth language. Second, he's been on a rock for three days and now he's on a slightly more luxurious rock. He still has no possessions. And he is closer to his team than he ever has been. So yeah, he's gonna use "we" for a lot of things that you might not.

 

He seemed to accept the responsibility very damned well, and I don't see shit in the way of excuses. What I do see is a guy that genuinely addressed the questioning and criticism he saw online, answering the question exactly the way a sailor would hope he would, and seeking to learn more.

I think it's ridiculous that in reality the entire route was left to one person, whether that's the case or not. If others were looking at it and didn't see it as well, including the skipper, then I hope that comes forward. If not, then on other hand there were no checks and balances, that in fact one person was entrusted with the routing, then again, this is a shared error by the skipper, team and campaign. This is not evident in any of the other teams. Many video of Iker and Alvi skipper glued to the screens. I mean what is being implied here, that the fate of the entire campaign is being entrusted to one person?

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ateam, why don't you change your title to "a.hole"

 

....that'd make sense....it'd go well with the verbal diarrhea :)

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Just finished catching up on the latest 100 posts or so... a couple random thoughts about the latest thinking...

 

- Comments about Nico falling on his sword and bringing an un-named crew member with him... I don't think he fell on his sword at all. He said it's ultimately his responsibility, but then thoroughly set up the point that as skipper, he must be able to trust each crew member to do their job, and one crew member was essentially at fault for the whole thing. It appears to me that he's chucking that guy (presumably Wouter) on the sword and saying his only mistake was to trust that guy. I'm not judging Nico, as I think his feelings may be somewhat fair, and we don't know the whole story yet... I just didn't hear him falling on his sword in those comments.

 

- As a few people have said, most disasters aren't due to a single root cause. They're due to a series of events that come together to produce the end result. This wasn't a reckless, inexperienced, or stupid navigator. It was a chain of events. Will part of the conclusion be that the one un-named person made serious mistakes as part of the equation? Probably. Hard to imagine that isn't part of it. Is the zoom part of it? Probably. Is the fact that this happened in an area that was exclusion zone until shortly before the start, and therefore there was little time to research the possible hazards prior to the start? Probably. Given that the event happened a couple weeks after the actual start, should that hazard research have been completed aboard by the time they arrived? Probably. Was fatigue a factor? Probably. Were there other factors that none of us has thought of yet? Probably. Is there a single root cause that can explain the whole event? No way. It's a combination of events.

 

- Don't forget that Dongfeng almost did the same thing. As far as I can tell, the only reason they altered course at the last minute while Vestas plowed into the reef was that Dongfeng arrived before sunset. I'm hoping that when they do their root cause analysis, they involve Dongfeng to see whether or not there were commonalities in between the near miss and the brutal hit. I'm guessing yes, and those commonalities would likely need the most urgent attention because those would be factors that could imply continued risk for the remaining 6 competitors if not resolved.

Nico will unreservedly take full responsibility, you watch, but he is way above taking anyone with him. He will protect his team at his own expense. Make no mistake about it.

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Like many here I'm in the It's the Software That's Partly To Blame camp. I'm still struck by how obvious the atoll appears in google earth compared to these charts although the former doesn't have all the wind, pressure and current(?) overlays which dramatically confuse things. Having even the possibility of isobars and and ground contours in the same image for example is the sort of thing that gives data visualization people like Edward Tufte incipient aneurysms. Another issue which isn't necessarily easy to solve is that the monitors they are using are too small for serious work. Paper, as the great Lorne Whitehead observed, can be thought of as a kind of large, high resolution one time use flexible display. (an obvious point which actually isn't) The very size of a paper chart is its advantage, allowing more than one person at a time to see a lot of detail at once over a large area. Electronic charts need to have this feature too, and larger monitors would really help.

 

On the "there but for the grace of God go I file" I was exhausted late last week from late work nights but nevertheless was in the machine shop on Friday assembling a project with a co-op student. I did something involving an improperly secured piece of sheet metal and a drill press which could have sliced my finger wide open, though I escaped with a blood blister. I've only been doing stuff in machine shops for @#$%! 30 years. Some times you get lucky and sometimes you don't, and increasing age just makes you realize how many opportunities there are in life to screw up.

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- Don't forget that Dongfeng almost did the same thing. As far as I can tell, the only reason they altered course at the last minute while Vestas plowed into the reef was that Dongfeng arrived before sunset. I'm hoping that when they do their root cause analysis, they involve Dongfeng to see whether or not there were commonalities in between the near miss and the brutal hit. I'm guessing yes, and those commonalities would likely need the most urgent attention because those would be factors that could imply continued risk for the remaining 6 competitors if not resolved.

+10E6. Dongfeng was a classic near miss and what happened on that boat should be investigated as seriously as if they had hit the reef.

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Team Vestas Wind Navigator Wouter Verbraak Speaks Out (facebook.com)

 

Here is his post:

 

We finally have means of communications again, so a message is highly over due....

 

I am totally devastated and still in shock as the gravity of our grounding is slowly sinking in now that we are safely in Mauritius with finally some time to reflect on what happened.

 

We are very lucky that nobody was hurt, and a lot of that is credit to our team work in the seconds, minutes and hours after the crash.

 

I made a big mistake, but then we didn't make any others even though there were many difficult decision to be made and the situation was very challenging and grave indeed.

 

Once I can get power to the boats laptops (if they survived) I can look further into how we didn't see the reef on the electronic charts. I did check the area on the electronic chart before putting my head down for a rest after a very long day negotiating the tropical storm and what I saw was depths of 42 and 80m indicated. There is a very good article posted on http://blog.geogarage.com/2014/12/questions-asked-about-volvo-ocean-race.html which highlights some of the zooming problem in the vectorised charts that we used.

I can assure you that before every leg we diligently look at our route before we leave and I use both Google Earth, paper charts and other tools. However, our planned route changed just before we left, and with the focus on the start and the tricky conditions, I erroneously thought I would have enough information with me to look at the changes in our route as we went along. I was wrong. I am not trying to make any excuses - just trying to offer up some form of explanation and answer to some of your questions.

 

There are a number of lessons to be learned from this, which we hope will be able to relay in the time to come.

 

I am immensely grateful for all the support that we as a team, my family and myself have received from our wonderful friends, colleagues, family, Vestas, Powerhouse and Volvo. More over we are heavily in debt to the thorough support of Alvimedica throughout the first night, as well as the local fisherman and the coastguard of Ile du Sud in the atol. So I want to thank everybody so very much. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

 

I am forever in your debt.

 

Wouter

I'm impressed that he has said that, but also that someone (presumably) has allowed him to say that.

I'm not sure he was compelled to say that at all. If anything VOR may be critical of him not going through their channels.

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It is the easiest thing in the world to knock some one , from an arm chair

From you week end hooray Henry's .

They have admitted their mistake , they have man'd up and I am sure they fell like shit , but it has happened.

All you knockers are you going to apply for a navigators job on the next Volvo ?I think not you are all experts it seems ,I haven't

Seen one respected offshore navigator put his correct name to criticising this accident ,why because they understand the pressure and hope it doesn't happen to them.

I am sure their will be inquest , deep lost of self esteem and pride .

You have all had your fun , just lay off them

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It is the easiest thing in the world to knock some one , from an arm chair

From you week end hooray Henry's .

They have admitted their mistake , they have man'd up and I am sure they fell like shit , but it has happened.

All you knockers are you going to apply for a navigators job on the next Volvo ?I think not you are all experts it seems ,I haven't

Seen one respected offshore navigator put his correct name to criticising this accident ,why because they understand the pressure and hope it doesn't happen to them.

I am sure their will be inquest , deep lost of self esteem and pride .

You have all had your fun , just lay off them

+1

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With everyone pointing at Wouter, I think he made it clear that more than one person is looking at the screens and that neither one of them, or none of them, saw the reef - for whatever reason which is yet to be determined.

Wouter said "we" but that doesn't necessarily mean shit, and it's a little ridiculous for you to be parsing words like that. First, english is his third or fourth language. Second, he's been on a rock for three days and now he's on a slightly more luxurious rock. He still has no possessions. And he is closer to his team than he ever has been. So yeah, he's gonna use "we" for a lot of things that you might not.

 

He seemed to accept the responsibility very damned well, and I don't see shit in the way of excuses. What I do see is a guy that genuinely addressed the questioning and criticism he saw online, answering the question exactly the way a sailor would hope he would, and seeking to learn more.

I think it's ridiculous that in reality the entire route was left to one person, whether that's the case or not. If others were looking at it and didn't see it as well, including the skipper, then I hope that comes forward. If not, then on other hand there were no checks and balances, that in fact one person was entrusted with the routing, then again, this is a shared error by the skipper, team and campaign. This is not evident in any of the other teams. Many video of Iker and Alvi skipper glued to the screens. I mean what is being implied here, that the fate of the entire campaign is being entrusted to one person?

 

You are inferring things that are not there. Just take it easy - I promise you that any question you want answered you will get answered, as long as it is respectful and you are not a cunt about it.

 

I'm already scheduling a video interview with Nico and I think Wouter would probably talk to me as well but I think I'll get what I need from Nico via phone, and follow up in person in AD.

 

Nico will tell me the truth, because that's what he does, and he'll welcome the chance to answer the questions that knowledgeable sailors have rather than the hundreds of annoying interviews he has coming up with clueless sports/lifestyle reporters who think we stop racing when the sun goes down.

 

"No secrets, mate."

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With everyone pointing at Wouter, I think he made it clear that more than one person is looking at the screens and that neither one of them, or none of them, saw the reef - for whatever reason which is yet to be determined.

Wouter said "we" but that doesn't necessarily mean shit, and it's a little ridiculous for you to be parsing words like that. First, english is his third or fourth language. Second, he's been on a rock for three days and now he's on a slightly more luxurious rock. He still has no possessions. And he is closer to his team than he ever has been. So yeah, he's gonna use "we" for a lot of things that you might not.

 

He seemed to accept the responsibility very damned well, and I don't see shit in the way of excuses. What I do see is a guy that genuinely addressed the questioning and criticism he saw online, answering the question exactly the way a sailor would hope he would, and seeking to learn more.

Hear Hear

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dr dave:

 

I am sure you will reply with "they are professionals...blah blah" however professional doctors/pilots/engineers make mistakes too

A bit of empathy wouldn't go amiss

 

Absolutely we do. And the fix is not to throw the years of training away & ruin someone's career (though to be fair the pilots' tend to be caught up in the "bad outcomes"...there's a pretty good incentive for them to get things correct every time-though problems still occur...they can't all have a death wish).

 

This is a systems issue. Everyone, no matter how good & talented they are make mistakes. Those of you who think otherwise or that it will never happen to them are delusional. A good system catches these mistakes before the bad outcomes. Here the system worked x2 (in daylight) & failed x1 in this instance (at night).

 

For my part I am impressed with Nico & Wouter's admission of failures. Wouter for admitting fault in his navigation and Nico for acceptance of responsibility as skipper. Too frequently we see people scattering and laying blame in an a attempt to CYA. A good system embraces disclosure to get to the bottom of why it slips through. Why it happens is always the same: humans are involved. Humans are fallible-no matter how talented they are.

 

It is the easiest thing in the world to knock some one , from an arm chair

From you week end hooray Henry's .

They have admitted their mistake , they have man'd up and I am sure they fell like shit , but it has happened.

All you knockers are you going to apply for a navigators job on the next Volvo ?I think not you are all experts it seems ,I haven't

Seen one respected offshore navigator put his correct name to criticising this accident ,why because they understand the pressure and hope it doesn't happen to them.

I am sure their will be inquest , deep lost of self esteem and pride .

You have all had your fun , just lay off them

 

+ another 1

 

All you guys willing to single out people for failure and lynch them from the nearest spreader really just have no idea about true crisis management. I sincerely hope you never are in charge.

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With everyone pointing at Wouter, I think he made it clear that more than one person is looking at the screens and that neither one of them, or none of them, saw the reef - for whatever reason which is yet to be determined.

Wouter said "we" but that doesn't necessarily mean shit, and it's a little ridiculous for you to be parsing words like that. First, english is his third or fourth language. Second, he's been on a rock for three days and now he's on a slightly more luxurious rock. He still has no possessions. And he is closer to his team than he ever has been. So yeah, he's gonna use "we" for a lot of things that you might not.

 

He seemed to accept the responsibility very damned well, and I don't see shit in the way of excuses. What I do see is a guy that genuinely addressed the questioning and criticism he saw online, answering the question exactly the way a sailor would hope he would, and seeking to learn more.

I think it's ridiculous that in reality the entire route was left to one person, whether that's the case or not. If others were looking at it and didn't see it as well, including the skipper, then I hope that comes forward. If not, then on other hand there were no checks and balances, that in fact one person was entrusted with the routing, then again, this is a shared error by the skipper, team and campaign. This is not evident in any of the other teams. Many video of Iker and Alvi skipper glued to the screens. I mean what is being implied here, that the fate of the entire campaign is being entrusted to one person?

 

You are inferring things that are not there. Just take it easy - I promise you that any question you want answered you will get answered, as long as it is respectful and you are not a cunt about it.

 

I'm already scheduling a video interview with Nico and I think Wouter would probably talk to me as well but I think I'll get what I need from Nico via phone, and follow up in person in AD.

 

Nico will tell me the truth, because that's what he does, and he'll welcome the chance to answer the questions that knowledgeable sailors have rather than the hundreds of annoying interviews he has coming up with clueless sports/lifestyle reporters who think we stop racing when the sun goes down.

 

"No secrets, mate."

That is Nico to a tee...

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Dreadful accident, I'm very sad for the team.

Looking repeditivly at the vidio at the time of impact (25-28 seconds) I've noticed a few things..

Just prior to the hit the crew were agitated and trying to look around them.

4 separate sounds of impact.

The first is a 'light' impact,

Then a hard shattering impact,

Then a firmer 'light' impact,

(So far the vidio is stable)

Then an overwhelmingly hard impact with a lot of vidio instability.

The boat was at around 20deg of heal during these impacts.

The boat jolted but didn't suddenly stop.

The keel strut appears in one piece.

No vision of the bulb.

Both dagger boards of apear to be up (port board is only just seen at deck level),

But the starboard board looks short to me..

My ass-u-me....

The keel was fully cranked to port.

The starboard board was down some.

The bulb of the keel was effectively less deep that the board and much less than the rudder.

The first impact is the board 'tapping' the first shelf, rock etc.

Second is it hitting and shearing off the next hight shelf.

The third is the rudders tapping..

Then the fourth is the impact of the rudders on the next hight shelf and shattering, ripping the steering gear and hull apart.

The crew were saved serious injury because the boat didn't stop dead.

19 knots equals 35km/h....

Very hard to watch this vidio the second time through.

My heart goes out to them.

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BTW

i guess what happened to Vestas could have happened to any team or to any boat.

they simply had the bad luck of actually hitting something.

I think that many other navigators make the same mistake every know and again of not checking exactly (e.g. zoom issue) but usually there is just nothing there to hit. So basically they have the luck that vestas did not have.

I'm not ssyibg it happens all the time. Just every once in while.

I'm sure that there are more cases of navigators being lucky not to hit anything even if they did not check every last detail than cases like this.

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Now we wait for nico to say he's ultimately responsible & he blames himself.

 

Then there will be a press release from VOLVO to say they didn't plan to open the area up & in hindsight they shouldn't have etc etc

You say this like there is something wrong with it, and there's a level of unwillingness I don't understand at all both here and on Facebook to accept people's straight up apologies and admissions and explanations.

 

I cannot remember the last time this kind of admission of guilt happened in our sport, which is often plagued by the exact opposite.

 

If Volvo was imprudent to change the course, and Nico was imprudent to not double check Wouter, why the fuck wouldn't they admit it? And way, way more importantly, what is wrong with admitting it? Would you rather they pull an Artemis?

You've misinterpreted my post Clean. I applaud their honesty. Nicho is a living legend & I'm sure he & VOLVO will try to take as much of the heat off WOUTER as they can at their own expense because its all about teamwork & getting on with the job. Hey, we've all made mistakes this one is just very costly & public.

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What about the guy who tipped over a satellite? His midtske was a lot more costly ...

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yeah matt.

 

This whole thing has touched me deeply as you can tell. i've known Nico for most of my (late blooming) career in sailing, and I feel a certain kinship to him after some pretty good conversations over the years. I've sailed with him on a bunch of different boats, raced against him in the Melges 32 Class (we lost), and every time we hang out, he blows me away with his wit, honesty, and openness, and he is literally one of my favorite human beings.

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Now we wait for nico to say he's ultimately responsible & he blames himself.

 

Then there will be a press release from VOLVO to say they didn't plan to open the area up & in hindsight they shouldn't have etc etc

You say this like there is something wrong with it, and there's a level of unwillingness I don't understand at all both here and on Facebook to accept people's straight up apologies and admissions and explanations.

 

I cannot remember the last time this kind of admission of guilt happened in our sport, which is often plagued by the exact opposite.

 

If Volvo was imprudent to change the course, and Nico was imprudent to not double check Wouter, why the fuck wouldn't they admit it? And way, way more importantly, what is wrong with admitting it? Would you rather they pull an Artemis?

You've misinterpreted my post Clean. I applaud their honesty. Nicho is a living legend & I'm sure he & VOLVO will try to take as much of the heat off WOUTER as they can at their own expense because its all about teamwork & getting on with the job. Hey, we've all made mistakes this one is just very costly & public.

Ahh, ok Scanas - sorry about that. It's 0300 here, I've been working the Melges Worlds since 0530, and I still have an hour of writing and editing press releases ahead. In other words, my brain isn't working that well. Oh, and then I have to finish the front page...and I'm procrastinating.

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Now we wait for nico to say he's ultimately responsible & he blames himself.

 

Then there will be a press release from VOLVO to say they didn't plan to open the area up & in hindsight they shouldn't have etc etc

You say this like there is something wrong with it, and there's a level of unwillingness I don't understand at all both here and on Facebook to accept people's straight up apologies and admissions and explanations.

 

I cannot remember the last time this kind of admission of guilt happened in our sport, which is often plagued by the exact opposite.

 

If Volvo was imprudent to change the course, and Nico was imprudent to not double check Wouter, why the fuck wouldn't they admit it? And way, way more importantly, what is wrong with admitting it? Would you rather they pull an Artemis?

You've misinterpreted my post Clean. I applaud their honesty. Nicho is a living legend & I'm sure he & VOLVO will try to take as much of the heat off WOUTER as they can at their own expense because its all about teamwork & getting on with the job. Hey, we've all made mistakes this one is just very costly & public.
Ahh, ok Scanas - sorry about that. It's 0300 here, I've been working the Melges Worlds since 0530, and I still have an hour of writing and editing press releases ahead. In other words, my brain isn't working that well. Oh, and then I have to finish the front page...and I'm procrastinating.

All good. Procrastinating or google image searching for Sally Fitzgibbons :-)

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"Check this out" VOICE 1

"WHAT IS THIS" VOICE 2

 

25 seconds later they are on the bricks. That's about 280m since the first question to impact if my maths are correct.

 

Had an idea something wasn't right but obviously not expecting a reef.

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Yep, my condolences guys, everyone makes mistakes. Really glad everyone is OK. Sorry I wont see you in Auckland now, was looking fwd to it.

 

A question for some with experiences in these races. I am not familiar with Expedition, but I have quite a few offshore miles, and some trans ocean single handed racing. I have extensive experience with Nobeltec and Opencpn. I understand the zooming issue.

 

I'm interested in the fact than none on this forum have questioned the use of a single data source (GPS) for position - the chart plotter with Expedition. Several have recommended additional plotter screens, at different scales. Rather than that, in these circumstances I would have had both a radar guard zone and sonar alarms set, regardless of whether I thought I was on a safe route or not. Both are connected to very loud klaxon type sirens, that cannot go un-noticed.

 

Vestas has a 4G broadband radar I believe? This is part of the lookout system as required by the colregs for a vessel so equipped. Was it off, or on but no-one watching it - and no guard zone. Is this standard practice for the VOR boats, and if so, why?

 

My radar is a 3G broadband, and it would have sounded the collision alarm in sufficient time - it normally will see a low reef from several miles off.

 

Radar guard zones should be SOP as far as I can see.

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yeah matt.

 

This whole thing has touched me deeply as you can tell. i've known Nico for most of my (late blooming) career in sailing, and I feel a certain kinship to him after some pretty good conversations over the years. I've sailed with him on a bunch of different boats, raced against him in the Melges 32 Class (we lost), and every time we hang out, he blows me away with his wit, honesty, and openness, and he is literally one of my favorite human beings.

 

Expect he's seen it. Didn't take long to make it onto Wouter's twitter feed which is how I came across it.

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With everyone pointing at Wouter, I think he made it clear that more than one person is looking at the screens and that neither one of them, or none of them, saw the reef - for whatever reason which is yet to be determined.

Wouter said "we" but that doesn't necessarily mean shit, and it's a little ridiculous for you to be parsing words like that. First, english is his third or fourth language. Second, he's been on a rock for three days and now he's on a slightly more luxurious rock. He still has no possessions. And he is closer to his team than he ever has been. So yeah, he's gonna use "we" for a lot of things that you might not.

 

He seemed to accept the responsibility very damned well, and I don't see shit in the way of excuses. What I do see is a guy that genuinely addressed the questioning and criticism he saw online, answering the question exactly the way a sailor would hope he would, and seeking to learn more.

I think it's ridiculous that in reality the entire route was left to one person, whether that's the case or not. If others were looking at it and didn't see it as well, including the skipper, then I hope that comes forward. If not, then on other hand there were no checks and balances, that in fact one person was entrusted with the routing, then again, this is a shared error by the skipper, team and campaign. This is not evident in any of the other teams. Many video of Iker and Alvi skipper glued to the screens. I mean what is being implied here, that the fate of the entire campaign is being entrusted to one person?

You are inferring things that are not there. Just take it easy - I promise you that any question you want answered you will get answered, as long as it is respectful and you are not a cunt about it.

 

I'm already scheduling a video interview with Nico and I think Wouter would probably talk to me as well but I think I'll get what I need from Nico via phone, and follow up in person in AD.

 

Nico will tell me the truth, because that's what he does, and he'll welcome the chance to answer the questions that knowledgeable sailors have rather than the hundreds of annoying interviews he has coming up with clueless sports/lifestyle reporters who think we stop racing when the sun goes down.

 

"No secrets, mate."

Was it somehow lost that I'm a Vestas Fan and a great admirer of Nico. And is it cuntish to defend Wouter when so many are quick to throw him under a bus?

 

It is admirable, of course, that Wouter admits fault. Nico took responsibility, as he should as skipper but only to the degree that he trusted in his team (probably taken out of context). He might just as easily said, "You know, we all looked at the charts, but just didn't see it".

 

My question to Nico would be: On many of the other teams, we see navigators and Skippers scrutinizing the screens together and making decisions about the route together. Sam even said, she considers the opinions of the team as a whole, then makes the decision together with the navigator. How is/was this different or the same on Vestas prior to hitting the reef? Who verified the route on approach to the Reef?

 

I know Nico is a stand up guy, and will do right by his team. So is Wouter. Yet there is a strong implication, especially here, that only one man's zooming issue is the whole cause of this unfortunate accident.

 

I hope this is respectful enough.

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Though I can see the irony that he has this on his homepage...

 

"The art of the sailor is to leave nothing to chance."

- Annie Van De Wiele

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With everyone pointing at Wouter, I think he made it clear that more than one person is looking at the screens and that neither one of them, or none of them, saw the reef - for whatever reason which is yet to be determined.

Wouter said "we" but that doesn't necessarily mean shit, and it's a little ridiculous for you to be parsing words like that. First, english is his third or fourth language. Second, he's been on a rock for three days and now he's on a slightly more luxurious rock. He still has no possessions. And he is closer to his team than he ever has been. So yeah, he's gonna use "we" for a lot of things that you might not.

 

He seemed to accept the responsibility very damned well, and I don't see shit in the way of excuses. What I do see is a guy that genuinely addressed the questioning and criticism he saw online, answering the question exactly the way a sailor would hope he would, and seeking to learn more.

Hear Hear

Totally agree. Exactly what I would expect from these guys. Hopefully the armchair soapbox experts may pipe down a bit but somehow I doubt it sadly.

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It's taken me a while to figure out why it happened at all, but its just occurred to me this evening.

 

It relates to something a wise fella told me as I left the marina to helm in my first keelboat race.

 

"Yachts will make you look like a fuckwit, and you don't know when"

 

Happens to ALL of us who sail, however we don't have the world peering over our shoulder, so give them a break.

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With everyone pointing at Wouter, I think he made it clear that more than one person is looking at the screens and that neither one of them, or none of them, saw the reef - for whatever reason which is yet to be determined.

Wouter said "we" but that doesn't necessarily mean shit, and it's a little ridiculous for you to be parsing words like that. First, english is his third or fourth language. Second, he's been on a rock for three days and now he's on a slightly more luxurious rock. He still has no possessions. And he is closer to his team than he ever has been. So yeah, he's gonna use "we" for a lot of things that you might not.

 

He seemed to accept the responsibility very damned well, and I don't see shit in the way of excuses. What I do see is a guy that genuinely addressed the questioning and criticism he saw online, answering the question exactly the way a sailor would hope he would, and seeking to learn more.

I think it's ridiculous that in reality the entire route was left to one person, whether that's the case or not. If others were looking at it and didn't see it as well, including the skipper, then I hope that comes forward. If not, then on other hand there were no checks and balances, that in fact one person was entrusted with the routing, then again, this is a shared error by the skipper, team and campaign. This is not evident in any of the other teams. Many video of Iker and Alvi skipper glued to the screens. I mean what is being implied here, that the fate of the entire campaign is being entrusted to one person?

You are inferring things that are not there. Just take it easy - I promise you that any question you want answered you will get answered, as long as it is respectful and you are not a cunt about it.

 

I'm already scheduling a video interview with Nico and I think Wouter would probably talk to me as well but I think I'll get what I need from Nico via phone, and follow up in person in AD.

 

Nico will tell me the truth, because that's what he does, and he'll welcome the chance to answer the questions that knowledgeable sailors have rather than the hundreds of annoying interviews he has coming up with clueless sports/lifestyle reporters who think we stop racing when the sun goes down.

 

"No secrets, mate."

Was it somehow lost that I'm a Vestas Fan and a great admirer of Nico. And is it cuntish to defend Wouter when so many are quick to throw him under a bus?

 

It is admirable, of course, that Wouter admits fault. Nico took responsibility, as he should as skipper but only to the degree that he trusted in his team (probably taken out of context). He might just as easily said, "You know, we all looked at the charts, but just didn't see it".

 

My question to Nico would be: On many of the other teams, we see navigators and Skippers scrutinizing the screens together and making decisions about the route together. Sam even said, she considers the opinions of the team as a whole, then makes the decision together with the navigator. How is/was this different or the same on Vestas prior to hitting the reef? Who verified the route on approach to the Reef?

 

I know Nico is a stand up guy, and will do right by his team. So is Wouter. Yet there is a strong implication, especially here, that only one man's zooming issue is the whole cause of this unfortunate accident.

 

I hope this is respectful enough.

 

Each team has a different Nav/Skip dynamic; some skippers spend more time navigating, some spend very little. some spend more time working on boatspeed, some leave that to others. Don't make the mistake of thinking that OBR video showing nav and skip coseying up in the nav station means they spend a lot of time down there together. It's kind of a video thing, an easy composition to discuss nav on camera, that's why you see it so much in videos.

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Just as there have been countless pictures in the VOR of Skipper & Navigator in the past, there have already been no shortage of a few in this edition and more in the future. Nico has always been consultative and that will continue, but fewer crew on board allow for less of those opportunities I'd imagine.

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Just as there have been countless pictures in the VOR of Skipper & Navigator in the past, there have already been no shortage of a few in this edition and more in the future. Nico has always been consultative and that will continue, but fewer crew on board allow for less of those opportunities I'd imagine.

And if they're on opposite watches and both have plenty to of hands on stuff to do, no time and mega fatigue...

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Australian news has just picked up the story with footage on 7. This is the first I report I have seen in the main stream media here in Oz. Hard to believe really as one of this countries best skippers is/was racing around the world and had serious incdent and it only now gets reported about . Fucking shameful Ozzy media outlets! The only sailing the news here is Boxing Day S-H , even then they just focus on the seven logo for an hour or so then a shot of MR and BO at the end.

Anyway back to the fucking cricket and what the Karshitians are doing for Xmas.

Rant over :-)

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Everybody is talking zoom levels, but that is not what this is about. This is about proper prep. There is a video out there with Ian Walker talking about it and he says that they had outlined that atoll as being an 'exclusion zone' for them. This means that in preparing for the leg, Vestas did not do the same. I imagine that if something is marked as an exclusion zone than there is no way it disappears on the nav software. This then begs the question, why isn't headquarters making sure all boats have outlined all potential known hazards? Such as, say.... a fucking island in the middle of there path that is many miles wide and only a meter or two high?

i agree with you the issue is prep. ADOR in their pre race prep marked on their navigation software the reef as a no go zone so they knew it was there.

 

Where i think your very wrong is questioning race HQ checking their prep. This is not an exam, this is a yacht race. it is the skippers responsibility to ensure the boat is navigated in a safe manner, that has naff all to do with the race organisers. for those suggesting that race HQ has some culpability, or should take steps highlight navigation hazards are just plain wrong.

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The guy saying "Check this out" is Tony Rae, he is with no doubt one of the most professional sailors I have had the pleasure of racing with.

 

Like Clean said, Nico is a very good egg and put together a team of incredible people to sail with.

 

Can we not support these guys a little more? We are all in this sport together and in a round about way we will benefit from the mistakes made and make offshore sailing safer for you and your families.

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Australian news has just picked up the story with footage on 7. This is the first I report I have seen in the main stream media here in Oz. Hard to believe really as one of this countries best skippers is/was racing around the world and had serious incdent and it only now gets reported about . Fucking shameful Ozzy media outlets! The only sailing the news here is Boxing Day S-H , even then they just focus on the seven logo for an hour or so then a shot of MR and BO at the end.

Anyway back to the fucking cricket and what the Karshitians are doing for Xmas.

Rant over :-)

Not much better here. the BBC only picked it up yesterday and given the interest in sailing is higher than usual given Ben Ainslie's AC campaign (marginally higher....) and they have covered a bit of VOR stuff already I was a bit surprised at the delay.

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The guy saying "Check this out" is Tony Rae, he is with no doubt one of the most professional sailors I have had the pleasure of racing with.

 

Like Clean said, Nico is a very good egg and put together a team of incredible people to sail with.

 

Can we not support these guys a little more? We are all in this sport together and in a round about way we will benefit from the mistakes made and make offshore sailing safer for you and your families.

+1 on the community spirit side of things!

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For what it is worth, on Plan2Nav which is effectively C-map, this is how it shows on my IPad.

 

Danish program too...

post-12901-0-75635400-1417780088_thumb.jpg

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+1 each for every MR CLEAN post on this page.

 

Weird way to start the day. ;)

Yep He is defending the crews, and VOR from arm chair captains who assume much more than they know.

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Wouter's message no longer on his FB page. Hope it's just a glitch and not some PR message control.

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yes they fucked up, but please remember that that does not make them fuckwits. These are great sailors that we respect, and an error in navigation in this kind of race can and does happen. Lets face it we would have all love to have been part of that crew.

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Couple more random thoughts:

 

Re: poor prep of new territory etc... I seem to recall a video on one of the Inside Tracks or suchlike of a Vestas team member saying they were time pressured trying to get everything ready in time for the start. Perhaps they in fact didn't pre-prepare well enough? A casualty of a lesser funded team & less shore based numbers? Just postulating.

Given the reef in question was excluded from the race course until the low deepened in the day or two before the accident, would you expect the navigator to preprep for this bit of ocean?

 

This shoal was right on the edge of the old exclusion zone, so they should have been aware of it.

 

Old zone in pink, new zone in green:

post-20582-0-35431000-1417784942_thumb.png

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As to the boat, well that is write off. the back end is gone and no sea crane is in sight. A spare hull, does not exist. There are some amazing boat builders in the industry but even if they rebuild the back end, pushing it as hard as VOR do who would trust it as hard as these guys can push it? This is the F1 of the marine industry and it needs to to perfect to hold up under the applied stresses.

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With the preponderance of old gummers on this thread, the majority aren't trying to castigate anyone, it's more about determining the how and why.

 

Perhaps if one asked for a show of hands, that haven't experienced a grounding or close calls due to a navigational error....the result would be telling.

post-4773-0-33490400-1417784971_thumb.jpg

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Its gross negligence. It is an intentional and voluntary disregard of the need to use reasonable care. Reasonable care is periodically checking the chart for the upcoming course of the boat. Whoever was supposed to do that didn't.

I have no doubt he WAS checking the electronic chart regularly.

 

The question is whether he was grossly negligent in not knowing that a reef (particularly of that large size) could be left off the screen at certain scales.

 

or whether it is grossly negligent not to have the paper charts out at the same time throughout the race. (which I personally think is not workable with those boats' navigatorium setups)

What scales are we talking? In the Android navionics version I can see land right where they hit surrounded by significant depth contours at a zoom level such that it is 300 miles from one side of the chart to the other. This is gross negligence. If someone looked at the chart and saw those land specs surrounded by those depth contours and didn't bother zooming in, then it is recklessness.

For days we have had to listen to you and ateam foam at the mouth, shouting for a lynching as though any one who was actually involved in this owed your ritlan addled asses the time of day.

 

Wouter and Nico are stand up guys who both have taken personal responsibility in a very public way as soon as it was practical. There are innumerable differences between those two and the likes of you and ateam, but only one difference that matters in this context. I would be honored to have either Nicole or Wouter race on Dragon. Whereas I would not let either of you two clowns wash my decks let alone sail with me. Life is too short to spend with talentless finger-pointers.

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Gross negligence is a big call. Shit happens. Watch the video of these guys hitting the reef, they weren't about to tack and no idea it was there. Screw the charts, they were racing and aiming to win. This is not a delivery trip, there were out to win a race and working the angles. The way they reacted after hitting the reef was testament to their ability and a lesson to us all. Personally I would like to think I have that level of calm an control when it is dark and i run aground at speed, and then have braking waves coming over the boat. Personally i think that is a brown trouser moment and they did well in the circumstances.

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*What had their attention just a minute before the big crash?*

 

I’d take a guess of surf breaking over the massive reef they were fast approaching, it was just post dusk when they hit…. around 7:15pm local time…

They’re combined shock tells you all on deck at that point, had no exact clue as to where they were….? Wouter states he was off-watch after a very long, hard day…. and the track they were on was very different to the one initially agreed.

 

It would seem to me, rather than blindly flying, fully pumped-up… full power into the darkness to a waypoint no doubt, it might be fairly useful to have at least one team member per watch that is actually uber-digi-nav’ savvy, and on-the-ball smart enough to keep constantly checking the boats progress? That and occasionally getting on forward to the deck with a pair of binoculars and taking a good look ‘out’ there… once their eyes are fully adjusted to the gloom.

 

I’ve sailed many thousands of miles, many of them at night and unless you’re in dense fog - you’ll always see something - oft critical enough to make a course correction, even if it’s not listing on the nav/chartplotter…. Third world zones guarantee craft at sea often unlit…which is why a radar alarm perimeter day/night too can be very useful.

On the current VOR65s the helmsman does have a small tiny plotter at the wheel and larger floating compass. I cannot imagine why he wouldn’t occasionally zoom in… should be common-sense standard practice. If its salt encrusted, and/or on the blink tis a constantly wave/ocean battered point for sure… might explain why they were so unprep’d for the collision. As someone commented earlier yep size does count…. and (pic) here was my chart plotter/work zone when I was on a Cat rounding Africa.

 

http://i.imgur.com/Zd2v245.jpg[/img]

 

(This is massive screen right at the wheel where you want it, yes there was a clone inside same size too)

 

On these large racing dinghys…I think there may be tiny digi back up chart point either side of the cockpit entrance… ? Having never been on a VOR65 that’s a guess at best, and for sure the guy/gal driving wouldn’t find them any use at all at that distance as a back-up, unless they have AI terminator style vision!?!

 

And though a skipper does have absolute responsibility… all team members should be fairly fluid in their on-board skill sets… if in doubt, check, and check again. Sadly you can never escape being chained by your weakest link.

 

There is good news in this, as in the whole team walks away… and gets to sail another day. And the guys at Multiplast hats off to them that the core carbon tub survived the reef mashing to daylight some 8hrs later allowing the whole team a safer decamp in daylight.

 

Me? I hope that the spare VOR yacht sitting in Abu Dhabi, gets gifted the Vestas teams way…. and a talented bunch of sailors get back in the fight pdq.

 

Fair winds all…

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Anti piracy.

buy they shifted it to let the boats sail on the down wind side of the cyclone rather than making them thrash upwind into boat breaking conditions...

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With the preponderance of old gummers on this thread, the majority aren't trying to castigate anyone, it's more about determining the how and why.

 

Perhaps if one asked for a show of hands, that haven't experienced a grounding or close calls due to a navigational error....the result would be telling.

Got to agree with this. We are all human and make mistakes, even the best do. We can try to learn from our mistakes and try not to repeat them. And the best can learn from other's mistakes (the knuckleheads cannot). But human's make mistakes. That is a fundemental truth and best practice process, rules of thumb, and work flow accepts and tries to compensate for that truth. It is why each and every nurse and md ask you when you are in pre-op a dozen times for your name and what op you are in for.

 

There is a bunch to learn from this one, particularily as it is not a "one-off" but repeated both by other boats in the Volvo fleet (dong) and at least aspects of the mistake (zoom scans and "safe distance") by a number of other boats (like cork). There is a "new" best practice process and work flow and judgement rules of thumb to develop here with echarting, and to communicate and educate sailors with.

 

We can also learn from things that went well - the boat held up long enough to allow the crew to sort themselves out. The aft watertight bulkhead was essential for that.

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Its gross negligence. It is an intentional and voluntary disregard of the need to use reasonable care. Reasonable care is periodically checking the chart for the upcoming course of the boat. Whoever was supposed to do that didn't.

I have no doubt he WAS checking the electronic chart regularly.

 

The question is whether he was grossly negligent in not knowing that a reef (particularly of that large size) could be left off the screen at certain scales.

 

or whether it is grossly negligent not to have the paper charts out at the same time throughout the race. (which I personally think is not workable with those boats' navigatorium setups)

What scales are we talking? In the Android navionics version I can see land right where they hit surrounded by significant depth contours at a zoom level such that it is 300 miles from one side of the chart to the other. This is gross negligence. If someone looked at the chart and saw those land specs surrounded by those depth contours and didn't bother zooming in, then it is recklessness.

For days we have had to listen to you and ateam foam at the mouth, shouting for a lynching as though any one who was actually involved in this owed your ritlan addled asses the time of day.

 

Wouter and Nico are stand up guys who both have taken personal responsibility in a very public way as soon as it was practical. There are innumerable differences between those two and the likes of you and ateam, but only one difference that matters in this context. I would be honored to have either Nicole or Wouter race on Dragon. Whereas I would not let either of you two clowns wash my decks let alone sail with me. Life is too short to spend with talentless finger-pointers.

 

Did I hurt your feelings for calling a spade a spade? You, sir, are a liar. I never called for any lynching. I expressly said that this isn't even about rubbing their faces in it. This is just about admitting that it was a fuckup, and not a "zoom problem" or a "course change" problem or a "depth alarm" problem or a "fatigue problem" or anything else. This was a "I should have been watching, but I wasn't" problem.

 

But then Wouter comes out and says it was a zoom problem and that his mistake was not having everything he needed to avoid this catastrophe. He had everything he needed. He is very lucky that he didn't get someone killed when they hit. They took the blow in increments. Those guys on deck not tethered in not wearing pfd's at night could have easily been thrown off that boat unconscious.

 

All that is needed here is a little honesty and responsibility. That is what big boys do when they fuckup. And, as you say, everyone fucks up.

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Its gross negligence. It is an intentional and voluntary disregard of the need to use reasonable care. Reasonable care is periodically checking the chart for the upcoming course of the boat. Whoever was supposed to do that didn't.

I have no doubt he WAS checking the electronic chart regularly.

 

The question is whether he was grossly negligent in not knowing that a reef (particularly of that large size) could be left off the screen at certain scales.

 

or whether it is grossly negligent not to have the paper charts out at the same time throughout the race. (which I personally think is not workable with those boats' navigatorium setups)

What scales are we talking? In the Android navionics version I can see land right where they hit surrounded by significant depth contours at a zoom level such that it is 300 miles from one side of the chart to the other. This is gross negligence. If someone looked at the chart and saw those land specs surrounded by those depth contours and didn't bother zooming in, then it is recklessness.

For days we have had to listen to you and ateam foam at the mouth, shouting for a lynching as though any one who was actually involved in this owed your ritlan addled asses the time of day.

 

Wouter and Nico are stand up guys who both have taken personal responsibility in a very public way as soon as it was practical. There are innumerable differences between those two and the likes of you and ateam, but only one difference that matters in this context. I would be honored to have either Nicole or Wouter race on Dragon. Whereas I would not let either of you two clowns wash my decks let alone sail with me. Life is too short to spend with talentless finger-pointers.

 

Did I hurt your feelings for calling a spade a spade? You, sir, are a liar. I never called for any lynching. I expressly said that this isn't even about rubbing their faces in it. This is just about admitting that it was a fuckup, and not a "zoom problem" or a "course change" problem or a "depth alarm" problem or a "fatigue problem" or anything else. This was a "I should have been watching, but I wasn't" problem.

 

But then Wouter comes out and says it was a zoom problem and that his mistake was not having everything he needed to avoid this catastrophe. He had everything he needed. He is very lucky that he didn't get someone killed when they hit. They took the blow in increments. Those guys on deck not tethered in not wearing pfd's at night could have easily been thrown off that boat unconscious.

 

All that is needed here is a little honesty and responsibility. That is what big boys do when they fuckup. And, as you say, everyone fucks up.

First the Dirk de Ridder appeal now this.... It sucks to be Dutch. En ik ben Nederlander!

One campaign to the bottom okay. Didn't they start at the last moment. Is Wouter to blame?

Nobody hurt and everyone safe home.

 

Next campaign better is my opinion.

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I have no doubt he WAS checking the electronic chart regularly.

 

The question is whether he was grossly negligent in not knowing that a reef (particularly of that large size) could be left off the screen at certain scales.

 

or whether it is grossly negligent not to have the paper charts out at the same time throughout the race. (which I personally think is not workable with those boats' navigatorium setups)

What scales are we talking? In the Android navionics version I can see land right where they hit surrounded by significant depth contours at a zoom level such that it is 300 miles from one side of the chart to the other. This is gross negligence. If someone looked at the chart and saw those land specs surrounded by those depth contours and didn't bother zooming in, then it is recklessness.

For days we have had to listen to you and ateam foam at the mouth, shouting for a lynching as though any one who was actually involved in this owed your ritlan addled asses the time of day.

 

Wouter and Nico are stand up guys who both have taken personal responsibility in a very public way as soon as it was practical. There are innumerable differences between those two and the likes of you and ateam, but only one difference that matters in this context. I would be honored to have either Nicole or Wouter race on Dragon. Whereas I would not let either of you two clowns wash my decks let alone sail with me. Life is too short to spend with talentless finger-pointers.

 

Did I hurt your feelings for calling a spade a spade? You, sir, are a liar. I never called for any lynching. I expressly said that this isn't even about rubbing their faces in it. This is just about admitting that it was a fuckup, and not a "zoom problem" or a "course change" problem or a "depth alarm" problem or a "fatigue problem" or anything else. This was a "I should have been watching, but I wasn't" problem.

 

But then Wouter comes out and says it was a zoom problem and that his mistake was not having everything he needed to avoid this catastrophe. He had everything he needed. He is very lucky that he didn't get someone killed when they hit. They took the blow in increments. Those guys on deck not tethered in not wearing pfd's at night could have easily been thrown off that boat unconscious.

 

All that is needed here is a little honesty and responsibility. That is what big boys do when they fuckup. And, as you say, everyone fucks up.

First the Dirk de Ridder appeal now this.... It sucks to be Dutch. En ik ben Nederlander!

One campaign to the bottom okay. Didn't they start at the last moment. Is Wouter to blame?

Nobody hurt and everyone safe home.

 

Next campaign better is my opinion.

Well it'd be hard to make it any worse :P

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Everyone makes mistakes, surely, but this type of mistakes should not happen at this level of the sport. Pretty incredible that no one else on board, especially Nico, looked in detail into the routing. Well...

 

When commercial and naval ships stop hitting things, then we can say that sailing should reach nirvana and eliminate human error as well.

 

_38375711_inspector.jpg

 

 

HMS_Astute_Anglian_Prince_Skye.JPG

 

_65359199_016956498-1.jpg

 

Vega.jpeg

 

etc etc

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etmhq.jpg

 

Shamelessly stolen from NoJoke over in another thread.

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Wouter's message no longer on his FB page. Hope it's just a glitch and not some PR message control.

 

He also removed his tweet (linking to the FB message). On the other hand, he retweeted SA's tweet to the FP article where his FB message is included word for word.

 

And something that's been on the interwebs will always be on the interwebs. So, there's no chance of taking it back. And frankly I don't see the need to either. It's an honest, matter of fact statement without any BS och hiding from responsibility.

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I would not assume this at ALL.

 

 

 

Its gross negligence. It is an intentional and voluntary disregard of the need to use reasonable care. Reasonable care is periodically checking the chart for the upcoming course of the boat. Whoever was supposed to do that didn't.

 

I have no doubt he WAS checking the electronic chart regularly.

 

The question is whether he was grossly negligent in not knowing that a reef (particularly of that large size) could be left off the screen at certain scales.

 

or… whether it is grossly negligent not to have the paper charts out at the same time throughout the race. (which I personally think is not workable with those boats' navigatorium setups)

After reading a few posts, this trsikes me as an excellent example of why a mariner should be plotting his course regularaly on a PAPER chart when approaching a nasty lanfall rather than relying on the elctronic toys in the cockpit. Shit happens, so it's always good to have some paper available as a remedy.

 

Sounds great in theory on the internet...

 

in practice things typically happen to fast on modern race boats to be playing with parallel rulers, and very few modern race navigators are regularly plotting positions on paper charts.

 

if you think that's too risky.., well, no body is forcing you to get on a race boat.., and you are welcome to run your own boat any way you like

 

anyway, i'm pretty sure that proportionally fewer boats run aground now then they before there were chart plotters

 

I will say i always have paper charts, and i always study them before every race, i occasionally refer to them in a race, but i rarely plot positions on them.

 

as i said above - i plot danger bearings, make notes, and do all that traditional stuff right on the electronic chart

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I am amazed at some of the "experts" on this site who have clearly never ever made a mistake on a boat.

The Vesta guys are great yachties and yes they made an error, but shit happens at sea.

I am sure you will reply with "they are professionals...blah blah" however professional doctors/pilots/engineers make mistakes too

A bit of empathy wouldn't go amiss

 

ateam, why don't you change your title to "a.hole"

nice one dr dave.....i say again - maybe you get my point then....

 

Of course! Mistakes do happen on every level in each situation - but i regard this as gross negligent - and as this is a high profile event - one could discuss this objectivly in order to learn lessons for the future.

 

It was said before here: this crash is not like a normal f1 crash - it is more like going round the circuit in the wrong direction..

 

Your conclusion is just: oh they are great professionals , super characters who were just very unlucky...book closed! i think not....

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for your information:

 

in hull insurance policies damages caused by the insureds gross negligence are excluded....so this case is of interest to every boater...

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Everyone makes mistakes, surely, but this type of mistakes should not happen at this level of the sport. Pretty incredible that no one else on board, especially Nico, looked in detail into the routing. Well...

 

When commercial and naval ships stop hitting things, then we can say that sailing should reach nirvana and eliminate human error as well.

 

_38375711_inspector.jpg

 

 

HMS_Astute_Anglian_Prince_Skye.JPG

 

_65359199_016956498-1.jpg

 

Vega.jpeg

 

etc etc

Yes, it appears that this is not the only case of maritime gross negligence. I suspect that in each of your examples, the skippers/navigators all got awards for professionalism and were handed their next ticket as they were stepping off those wrecks.

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Some of us on this thread have actually got boats past reefs on dark and stormy nights with a 3 day old celestial fix, a knotmeter, and a dodgy RDF. Not all are commenting from the "couch of ignorance", unless we just don't get that now you see a picture of exactly where you are every second of the day, you just are going to hit things :rolleyes: Are these guys young enough to just know about DR and celestial on paper charts from reading Master and Commander?

 

My worst screw ups were when my relief had marginal skills and I just could not stay awake for days on end to keep after them. One tried to drive right through the middle of Kent Island, my future home - fortunately made of sand. I would think the VOR boats would not be so constrained by manpower, but maybe I am wrong. THAT is something I am not real familiar with. Are they all boatspeed 24/7 and leave all the nav work to just one guy?

 

EDIT - I just now got to see the video. It seems to me - and I could be way wrong -that going hard starboard on the first bang could have saved the day. The navigator said something like being in 40 to 80 meters depth on their charted course. Being in open ocean and having the depth come up to 40 meters of coral would have my FULL attention and then some.

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Its gross negligence. It is an intentional and voluntary disregard of the need to use reasonable care. Reasonable care is periodically checking the chart for the upcoming course of the boat. Whoever was supposed to do that didn't.

I have no doubt he WAS checking the electronic chart regularly.

 

The question is whether he was grossly negligent in not knowing that a reef (particularly of that large size) could be left off the screen at certain scales.

 

or whether it is grossly negligent not to have the paper charts out at the same time throughout the race. (which I personally think is not workable with those boats' navigatorium setups)

What scales are we talking? In the Android navionics version I can see land right where they hit surrounded by significant depth contours at a zoom level such that it is 300 miles from one side of the chart to the other. This is gross negligence. If someone looked at the chart and saw those land specs surrounded by those depth contours and didn't bother zooming in, then it is recklessness.

For days we have had to listen to you and ateam foam at the mouth, shouting for a lynching as though any one who was actually involved in this owed your ritlan addled asses the time of day.

 

Wouter and Nico are stand up guys who both have taken personal responsibility in a very public way as soon as it was practical. There are innumerable differences between those two and the likes of you and ateam, but only one difference that matters in this context. I would be honored to have either Nicole or Wouter race on Dragon. Whereas I would not let either of you two clowns wash my decks let alone sail with me. Life is too short to spend with talentless finger-pointers.

Did I hurt your feelings for calling a spade a spade? You, sir, are a liar. I never called for any lynching. I expressly said that this isn't even about rubbing their faces in it. This is just about admitting that it was a fuckup, and not a "zoom problem" or a "course change" problem or a "depth alarm" problem or a "fatigue problem" or anything else. This was a "I should have been watching, but I wasn't" problem.

 

But then Wouter comes out and says it was a zoom problem and that his mistake was not having everything he needed to avoid this catastrophe. He had everything he needed. He is very lucky that he didn't get someone killed when they hit. They took the blow in increments. Those guys on deck not tethered in not wearing pfd's at night could have easily been thrown off that boat unconscious.

 

All that is needed here is a little honesty and responsibility. That is what big boys do when they fuckup. And, as you say, everyone fucks up.

For you to hurt my feelings, I have to care about your opinion. To care about your opinion, I have to respect you.

 

Have no fear - you did not hurt my feelings.

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Some of us on this thread have actually got boats past reefs on dark and stormy nights with a 3 day old celestial fix, a knotmeter, and a dodgy RDF. Not all are commenting from the "couch of ignorance", unless we just don't get that now you see a picture of exactly where you are every second of the day you just are going to hit things :rolleyes:

 

My worst screw ups were when my relief had marginal skills and I just could not stay awake for days on end to keep after them. One tried to drive right through the middle of Kent Island, my future home - fortunately made of sand. I would think the VOR boats would not be so constrained by manpower, but maybe I am wrong. THAT is something I am not real familiar with. Are they all boatspeed 24/7 and leave all the nav work to just one guy?

 

EDIT - the Navy ship in the post above mine ignored warnings from local boats not to keep going :rolleyes: That skipper is driving a desk at best right now.

Some of us (me, in this case) have done that too and yet still put the boat on the bricks. I have 47,000 people who have watched me do it on youtube.

 

Mistakes happen.

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"Once I can get power to the boats laptops (if they survived) I can look further into how WE didn't see the reef on the electronic charts."

Whats your point?

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+1 each for every MR CLEAN post on this page.

 

Weird way to start the day. ;)

No kidding.

I'm afraid too.

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I am amazed at some of the "experts" on this site who have clearly never ever made a mistake on a boat.

The Vesta guys are great yachties and yes they made an error, but shit happens at sea.

I am sure you will reply with "they are professionals...blah blah" however professional doctors/pilots/engineers make mistakes too

A bit of empathy wouldn't go amiss

 

ateam, why don't you change your title to "a.hole"

nice one dr dave.....i say again - maybe you get my point then....

 

Of course! Mistakes do happen on every level in each situation - but i regard this as gross negligent - and as this is a high profile event - one could discuss this objectivly in order to learn lessons for the future.

 

It was said before here: this crash is not like a normal f1 crash - it is more like going round the circuit in the wrong direction..

 

Your conclusion is just: oh they are great professionals , super characters who were just very unlucky...book closed! i think not....

my conclusion using F1 analogy is " the wheel flew off after pitstop due to loosen nut" fortunately not killing anyone. Should the mechanic be banned from the sport for gross negligence then? You are saying yes cause his only job is to tighten up the nut and I say no cause fundamentaly the problem is not in their incompetence.

 

I am sure VOR and crews will react to this incident by change of some procedures.

 

Throwing skipper and navigator overboard would simply not make this race and sport any safer and something else needs to be done in that respect.

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Some of us on this thread have actually got boats past reefs on dark and stormy nights with a 3 day old celestial fix, a knotmeter, and a dodgy RDF. Not all are commenting from the "couch of ignorance", unless we just don't get that now you see a picture of exactly where you are every second of the day, you just are going to hit things :rolleyes: Are these guys young enough to just know about DR and celestial on paper charts from reading Master and Commander?

 

My worst screw ups were when my relief had marginal skills and I just could not stay awake for days on end to keep after them. One tried to drive right through the middle of Kent Island, my future home - fortunately made of sand. I would think the VOR boats would not be so constrained by manpower, but maybe I am wrong. THAT is something I am not real familiar with. Are they all boatspeed 24/7 and leave all the nav work to just one guy?

 

EDIT - I just now got to see the video. It seems to me - and I could be way wrong -that going hard starboard on the first bang could have saved the day. The navigator said something like being in 40 to 80 meters depth on their charted course. Being in open ocean and having the depth come up to 40 meters of coral would have my FULL attention and then some.

 

But it doesn't prevent you from passing judgment. And yes it's all about boat-speed 24/7. IT'S A F...ING RACE.

 

Has it ever occurred to you that rally drivers put their cars in the ditch more often than the casual tourists. Even with a very concentrated co-driver.

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I'm sure the entire crew of this boat are top people, just like all the boats. They wouldn't be there if they weren't. But the fact is, the team ran their boat on to a clearly charted island. It may be one person's fault more than another person's, it may be down to a systematic failure but ultimately it is a team failure. If the system failed, they were the ones who designed the system. The skipper, navigator, watch captains, helm, trimmers, all the way down, with varying degrees of responsibility didn't do a good enough job. These boats are seriously shorthanded, you can't compartmentalize and say, "well, that's not my job". You can't trust that someone else has got this. Likewise, if you are the skipper, it is your responsibility to recognize that, and educate your crew that all crew need to be engaged with all aspects of the race. They need to have awareness of the situation, the overall game plan, strategy and vital information, such as exclusion zones (i.e. land).

 

This isn't piling on, I feel terrible for them. It is a horrible event, I'm sure they are completely heartbroken. Their actions from that moment on are a huge credit to their professionalism, and couldn't have been more well-executed. But It doesn't change they made a critical, team-wide mistake. A major mistake, and they know it. I doubt we are going to see anybody throwing anyone else under the bus, it wouldn't matter anyway, nobody can absolve themselves. They are just damn, damn, lucky it happened where it did.

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I spent half an hour preparing a reply to this topic but decided to erase it all.

Thank you alcoholfunnycar (?) for doing the job for me ;-)

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On the off chance that anyone off the boat actually wades through the crap on this thread, I'd just like to say that the crew of Vestas to a man, have handled themselves with courage and honesty throughout this whole incident. Because of that, sailors everywhere will have an opportunity to learn and improve the management of our boats, whether we sail alone, as skipper, navigator or crew.

 

I wish I could say the same for some of the posters on this thread, whose childish whining and instant judgement will prevent them from learning anything. To learn something, you actually have to listen, and the statements of the Vestas crew are a great place to start.

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Is this thread done? We've got two groups of people shouting;

 

Group 1: The idiots crashed into an island and they should be burned. I'm not an idiot.

Group 2: The idiots crashed into an island, thank fuck it wasn't me this time.

 

We're all waiting for a little more detail on how they crashed into and island, but in reality we already know. On top of that they've already admitted they were idiots, what's left?

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The future for the crew will come down to the people with the cash to fund future efforts whether AC or massive offshore efforts. The money folks will want the best talent or meat they can get for their efforts and money. How the skipper and crew handled themselves long before, during, and after will all come into play. If previous and current crew mates both on and off the boat want them back. They will be back! The better job everyone can do displaying and articulating what they learned from the disaster and how they put those lessons to future value the better. I remember when the saying was "the skipper who loses the NYYC AC Trophy will replace it with his head" was very common. DC lost it and his cash value went way up not down.

 

How many skilled and proven Volvo like team leaders, navigators, or skippers are there? If the community rates these two as A-holes they never wanted to sail with in the first place. We that story will not have a happy ending.

 

More specific if Nico can attracted funding and talent to work with him? Nico has a big future... maybe larger than when his command crashed on the coral. No following of cash willing to bet on him or great talent delighted to jump on the next boat with him may make the speaking circuit more attractive.

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Is this thread done? We've got two groups of people shouting;

 

Group 1: The idiots crashed into an island and they should be burned. I'm not an idiot.

Group 2: The idiots crashed into an island, thank fuck it wasn't me this time.

 

We're all waiting for a little more detail on how they crashed into and island, but in reality we already know. On top of that they've already admitted they were idiots, what's left?

 

They already admitted they made a mistake. Which makes them anything BUT idiots.

 

Besides, there is a third category, by far the largest, on this thread: those who think that nobody on that boat is an idiot.

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