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PaulinVictoria

Team Vestas grounded

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Thanks for that galac. It's good to have a transcript. I've tried several times to pick up what's being said. I think you nailed it.

 

I spent some time looking at the 3 YouTube videos of Vestas' crash, and writing out the time sequence as well as what is said on board (at least what's intelligible).

 

Highlights:

- First communication (on deck) of a potential risk was 32 secs. before impact: "We're passing… we're going over the top of some shoals right now, 40m deep". (said by a fluent English speaker - sounds potentially like Nico, but I'm merely guessing based on other videos of him speaking)

 

- 5 secs later (T-27) someone then says "Aw yeah, you can see the line here". It's not clear whether this is someone looking in the distance at the reef line, or looking at a contour line on a chartplotter screen (however the latter seems less likely since there appears to be no chartplotter on deck).

 

- In the best of cases, had they then reacted immediately (crash gybe or rounding up to stop), they would have had no more than 27 secs to stop the boat -- likely much less since they would have increased their draft in this maneuver. In terms of distance, 27 secs @ 19kts left them 850ft / 260m until impact... I think it would be very unrealistic to expect any race boat to suddenly come to a full stop within that distance at night...

 

- I do not really buy the "shorthanded crew" argument made by some posters above. Yes, the crew are small for a boat this size and the navigator is highly taxed, however there are enough people they they should have maintained much better situational awareness: 3 crew on deck (helm, mainsail trimmer, foresail trimmer), plus a 4th in the companionway (seemingly looking at Nav). That's more than enough to check the route ahead at least each watch, & inquire on any anomalies such as shoal lines on maps.

 

- The two longer 9:37 and 6:25 videos do have different soundtracks which complement each other (see transcript below) - however, my uneducated guess is this is due to multiple mics, and the video editor selecting a different mic for each video, rather than selectively blanking out sentences as suggested by some posters above. The shorter 2:03 video is duplicative, nothing interesting there.

 

Links to videos:

VOR - Inside Track - Team Vestas Wind Special (length: 9:37):
Team Vestas Wind aground (length: 6:25):
VOR - Race Yacht Crash caught on camera (length: 2:03):

Detailed timing (black font based on 9:37 video, blue font based on 6:25 video):

0:28: Footage starts; helmsman visible (port wheel); Crew #1 in middle of cockpit, is moving to behind helmsman (off camera)

0:44-0:52: Boat heels over significantly [gust?]; Crew #2 [mainsail trimmer who is invisibe forward of helmsman, sheets out the mainsheet]

0:53-1:07: Crew #1 reappears from behind helmsman, moving to forward grinder, and then grinds mainsheet back in.

1:05: Crew #3 appears to poke head through port companionway [blury]. Crew #1 looks in his direction but stays put.

1:09: Crew #1 moves forward to port companionway hatch.

1:11: Voice #1 [presumably Crew #3, native English speaker, sounds like could be Nico]: "There's a bit of current [into]…" [Fairly unintelligible]

1:13: Voice #2 [presumably Crew #1, foreign accent]: "Fifteen" [presumably wind speed]. Crew #1 starts moving to foresail sheet winch (starboard)

1:15: Voice #1: "There's a bit of current right [in the way]…"

1:16: Voice: "[stop] it" [fairly unintelligible, could also be "Lock it" or "Drop it"]

1:17-1:20: Crew #1 takes turn off winch and eases foresail sheet

 

1:27-1:32: Voice #1: "We're passing… we're going over the top of some shoals right now, 40 meters deep"

1:30: Right after hearing "shoals", Crew #1 heads to forward part of cockpit [presumably to approach Crew #3, or potentially check-out a chartplotter screen]

1:32: Voice #3 [good English speaker]: "Aw yeah, you can see the line here" [unclear if he's referring to a line in the distance, or a depth contour on the chartplotter]

1:33: Voice: "Wow"

1:34: Voice [faint]: "Yeah"

1:35: Voice (good English speaker): "Check this out" [0:00 of 6:25 min video, which starts here]

1:36-1:39: Voice #1: "What is this?". After saying this, Crew #1 then heads to port railing to peer into the distance towards 9 o'clock [moving more quickly than before - suggests some concern]

1:41: Crew #3 quickly emerges from companion way

1:41: Voice: "There's water"

1:41-1:43: Crew #3 also quickly moves to port railing and peers over port beam

1:42-1:43: Voice: [unintelligible commentary, sounds like "There's a line…"]. Crew #1 half-steps out of cockpit to lean further out as he peers towards port

1:45: Voice [same as 1:41]: "There's water"

1:44-1:47: [Other unintelligible chatter in 6:25 long video, around 0:10-0:13]

1:47-1:48: Voice: [unintelligible commentary, could be "There's a line in the water" but unclear]

1:49-1:50: Voice #1: "There's three thousand feet of water" [0:14 of 6:25 min video] [suggests crew is surprised to see shoals]

1:48-1:50: Crew #1 turns towards port quarter [may be peering further towards port bow at 10-11 o'clock], Crew #3 turns towards aft, starts pulling up his foullie pants.

1:52-1:53: Voice: "It's [wind]" [fairly unintelligible]

1:53-1:54: Voice: [unintelligible commentary]

1:55-1:56 Voice: [unintelligible commentary]

1:57-1:58 Voice: "Three thousand feed of water" [0:23 of 6:25 min video]

 

1:59: [3 IMPACTS] Bam (soft), BAM! (loud), BAM/CRASH! (really loud) [0:24 of 6:25 min]

 

2:00: Camera goes dark

2:01: Camera view reappears

2:04: Voice #3: "Fack!". Crew #1 starts moving from port side of cockpit towards foresail sheet winch on starboard.

2:05: Voice: "Are you guys all right?"

2:06: Voice #3: "Yeah, yeah!"

2:07: Voice: "Ease the sheet". Crew #1 is already on the foresail winch and dumps the sheet

2:09: Another fairly big impact, water sloshes over starboard rail into the cockpit

2:09: Voice #3: "Fack, there's a big rock here guys! It's a rock". Crew #2 [mainsail trimmer] moves from LHS railing [off camera] into cockpit. Crew #4 appears in companionway.

2:12: Voice: "Oh, Fuck!"

2:13-2:14: Voice #3: "Furl, furl the sail"

2:14: Crew #4 starts climbing out of companionway

2:16: Voice: "Holy shit!"

2:17: Crew #5 appears in view in companionway (behind Crew #4)

2:18: Voice #1: "It's all right guys". Voice #3: "Furl the sail"

...

9:37: End of video

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180 degrees out of there...been there done that at night onto a reef...lucky to have bounced/power sailed off after several minute.....Yucatan

 

Obviously, you weren't sailing at 19 knots.

 

That's what many people here are missing. Almost NONE of us understand that kind of speed and power on sailboat. If you're making judgement calls in this thread based on your own typical racing/sailing speed - you're doing it wrong.

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If Nico was on watch that shift, which looks like he was, helm probably interpreted his "we're sailing over shoals right now" as if Nico knew their route and carried on.

 

Perhaps with a bit more mindfulness, lack of fatigue or whatever, helm might have heard that and gone "WTF! That's not right." We're not supposed to be going over shoals. Left hand down?

 

Unless Nico (who is in the companion-way/cockpit) tells the helm to crack off - he's not going to crack off.

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The closest danger was on their port side, you can see the guys looking that way in the confusion... you can also see it in their track in the images below... bearing away would have been the best thing they could have done in their situation

 

attachicon.gifvestas1.jpg

 

This is the most damning evidence. They didn't just "clip" a reef. They drove right into the middle of a freakin' tourist destination at 19 knots.

 

I am a huge fan of Chris N. But (judging by the video), he was on deck pacifying his concerned crew while they did so.

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Much has been made that originally the St Brandon (Cargados Carajos) Shoals lay in an area of exclusion, and hence might not have been on interest to planning for this leg. That is quite incorrect. I have gone through all available web press releases, and notifications, and the picture that emerges is such:
The original exclusion line ( a great circle line between points:) ran from Maputo, through the southern tip of Madagscar, through Mauritius, and then to the most eastern tip of Oman. If you check a mercator projection of the Indian Ocean, then that line runs almost due north from Mauritius to the tip of Oman. The St Brandon Shoals clearly lie to the east of that line, although by only about 100NM.
The amended Leg 2 Exclusion Zone was released the day before the start of the leg:
http://www.volvooceanrace.com/static/assets/content_v2/media/files/m30768_leg-2-addendum-final-amdt-1a-20141119.pdf
This amendment was brought in due to emerging information about stormy weather patterns in the Indian Ocean, and the principal effect of the change was to allow passage either side of Mauritius/Reunion islands, but still keeping the Seychelles islands to port.
The exclusion line now became the island of Madagascar, as well as a line from the northern tip of that island, in a NW direction, to a point on the 60 degree line of longitude, due east of the Seychelles.
My point is that no matter which way you look at it, knowledge of the St Brandon Shoals should have been a part of any plan on all the yachts, BEFORE departure from Cape Town, along with a number of other very small islands or shoals, between Mauritius and Oman, in the Indian Ocean. Not to have done that sort of large scale reconnaissance, whether on e charts, paper charts, or admiralty pilot books, before departure, seems incredible, and a major factor in why this incident occurred.

 

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Perhaps we should let Han Solo have the last word on this whole thing:

 

"Travelling through hyperspace ain't like dusting crops, boy. Without precise calculations we'd fly right through a star or bounce too too close to a supernova, and that would end your trip real quick, wouldn't it?"

http://www.flickclip.com/flicks/starwarsanewhope2.html

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180 degrees out of there...been there done that at night onto a reef...lucky to have bounced/power sailed off after several minute.....Yucatan

Obviously, you weren't sailing at 19 knots.

 

That's what many people here are missing. Almost NONE of us understand that kind of speed and power on sailboat. If you're making judgement calls in this thread based on your own typical racing/sailing speed - you're doing it wrong.

I have .....24 knots...short handed...."Thursdays Child" and that was almost 30 years ago by now~~~~~

24knots and my 180 degree off the reef where two separate things....however I'd still do the same at 24 knots....the thing that most people don't understand ,when referring to increasing draft through the maneuver is that the forward momentum pivots the keel off the bottom through the 180 and the boat is then left facing 180 out....barring away takes much too long arching further into the shallows attempting the escape

 

Courtney was running Thursday's Child then, wasn't he?... or was that Tuesday's Child?

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Hey Snore you say to me... "While I do not know you personally, I am respectfully calling "bullshit" on this. It is not the duty of the race official to warn of any and all hazards. If so, should they have told the teams to look out for Madagascar?

You go on to say "If you are a big enough boy to enter the race you should know how to avoid hard objects that could break your boat. Regarding pre-race warnings of possible hazards...."

I would normally agree ...however you have missed or ignored that the race course was set after the race started and after pre-race navigation planning was completed. An unusual circumstance like this and having regard for the constraints competitors experience as I have outlined IMO warranted a navigation warning. Warnings in Sailing Instructions are quite common.

This is a key point,IMO, which should have hightened attention and a new look at the charts by those on thew boat itself...sure a warning from the race organizers too, but the captain and the whole of the crew should have looked and discussed the new sailing grounds ...a new look at the waters they would NOW be sailing in....
Check the amended exclusion zones on the web! Where they hit the shoal banks was never excluded! A line heading NNE from the northern tip of Madagascar, to a point in the ocean, due east of the Seychelles, was added just before the leg 2 start. That line, not to be crossed, was well to the west of where the yachts all sailed. The shoal banks they hit are part of the same underwater structure that includes Mauritius to the south and Seychelles to the north! Any navigator sailing north from Mauritius, damn well should have known about this obstruction, whatever exclusion zones were or were not in place, before they left Cape Town, as part of his general knowledge of the route!

 

Old exclusion zone in pink, new exclusion zone in green:

 

attachicon.gifexclusion.jpg

Please see my latest post re this diagram which is inaccurate.

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Interesting discussion here. First, I think most of us can relate to being greatly surprised by something that OF COURSE we should already have been aware of. Most of us are more lucky, so discover our potential big screw-up before everyone else in the world sees it on video, or sometimes we discover our own mistake purely by chance before any damage is done or anyone else notices. If the Vesta crew didn't know al that before this week, they do now, just part of living and learning. If I were in the position to hire a crew to race my boat, I wouldn't rule these guys out because of this incident even though I think the fault lies 100% with those aboard the boat.

 

That said, I HATE vector charts and once found myself "touching bottom" (soft mud at about 2 knots, thank God) because I was accustomed to raster charts and hadn't taken a hard enough look at my planned route beforehand. The information I needed was there and available but it didn't jump out at me as it would have on the type plotter display I was more accustomed to. Absolutely 100% my fault but I've never been taken completely by surprise like that using paper or raster charts. Luckily, I got off a lot easier than this crew did.

 

I realize that these guys are professional racers but that's a different thing than being a professional sailor or seafarer. I'm sure that each man aboard has an impressive resume of racing wins, can knowledgeably talk racing rules and tactics and sail trim way beyond my comprehension, and were chosen to be aboard because they had legitimately earned the right to be perceived to be an asset to a racing crew, but how many of them have ever skippered a cruising sailboat for even a week or two, choosing their own course someplace they were unfamiliar with where there were lots of obstacles to avoid? I haven't any knowledge of all the specific crewmembers aboard this boat, but if they're like the racing sailors I do know, they can work magic as far as getting more boat speed out of a hull/rig than I thought possible, but basic things like navigation and having the discipline to regularly zoom down and clear their whole intended course just isn't something they'd think to do. Little details like making sure you don't run into islands is either not an issue because they are accustomed to racing on a course that somebody else layed out, or it's somebody else's job to avoid hitting things. A valuable racing crewmember on a boat like this may be a foredeck or sail trim whiz, but have never spent hardly any time doing such mundane things as choosing or plotting a course except in reference to other boats in the race or in reference to current or wind shifts. In other words, (though I don't know) I wouldn't be surprised if there were only a few crewmembers aboard who would be considered competent seamen in the traditional sense of that word and I think that help explains why someone other than the off watch skipper or off watch navigator didn't happen to notice that they were headed directly for an island. Most of them are pure racers and very good at whatever they were hired to do, but few of them are good all around seamen because normally there's no reason for them to need to be. I happen to know only one professional sailboat racer and he's been at the game for quite a few years with some success, but I can think of literally 100's of people I'd sooner trust to deliver my boat from one side of Pen Bay to the other on a foggy night. But I have absolutely no doubt that in a race he'd be the first one across the finish line.

I agree

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exclusion zone...schmoozon zone......they had NO idea the shoal lay ahead....tracks don't lie...

 

the navigator knew about the shoal, he said so - it was the reef he didn't know about....

 

You've gotta admit, the naming of the Cargados Carajos SHOALS is rather unfortunate... It's a damn archipelago, with drying reefs and at least one inhabited island, for chrissake. Not like something many of us typically think of when we hear of of "shoals", such as Nantucket, Diamond, Frying Pan along the Eastern seaboard of the US, that can still generally be sailed OVER, at least in benign conditions...

 

I know it's a stretch, but in seeking to find possible reasons for something so inexplicable, might the labeling of this group as "shoals" on whatever chart was being used possibly contributed to a failure during the initial, cursory examination of the route to take a closer look? It's interesting to note that on the second chart below, the Nazareth Bank - which is simply that, completely submerged - several "obstructions" are indicated. Whereas in the Cargados sector, NOTHING is indicated to be above the surface... Also notable, is the sort of "quilting" of that chart you described earlier, on the lower portion of the Nazareth Bank...

 

The greater mystery, to me, is what sounds to be a somewhat cavalier acceptance that they were "passing over some shoals"... These are tropical waters, in the middle of the freakin' Indian Ocean... "Shoals" don't exist out there, as a rule, without being abutted by some seriously crunchy bits of coral... And I agree with your other assessment, that extreme fatigue seems to be the only conceivable reason, why that connection might not have been made sooner...

 

 

nga-chart-615512.jpg

 

 

C-Map_Cargados_Carajos_Shoal_zpsef681f9d

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Part of the problem is that the area they were in was excluded when they left Cape Town but the exclusion was removed when the tropical depression became threatening.

Hindsight suggests that maybe it should have remained excluded.

Not all the exclusions for this leg were published for security reasons.

Onimod seems to have been the first one in this thread to suggest this island was initially in a race exclusion zone, and he suggested it was a non-published one.

 

Where did he get that information?

 

because Fabergekiwi is right that the published initial exclusion zone does NOT appear to exclude this island (it appears to be in the race area by about a 100nm)

 

Published exclusion:

post-8534-0-64741600-1417916557_thumb.jpg

 

And zoomed the island is in the race area:

post-8534-0-47194700-1417916558_thumb.jpg

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Thanks Estar for those diagrams, which illustrate my point perfectly. BTW, how does one upload photos to a post?

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180 degrees out of there...been there done that at night onto a reef...lucky to have bounced/power sailed off after several minute.....Yucatan

 

Obviously, you weren't sailing at 19 knots.

 

That's what many people here are missing. Almost NONE of us understand that kind of speed and power on sailboat. If you're making judgement calls in this thread based on your own typical racing/sailing speed - you're doing it wrong.

With helm hard to port, this boat will stop very quickly. Bearing away does not work. I have done this @ 12 knots.

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Thanks Estar for those diagrams, which illustrate my point perfectly. BTW, how does one upload photos to a post?

 

When you are posting, hit the "more reply options" next to "post."

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180 degrees out of there...been there done that at night onto a reef...lucky to have bounced/power sailed off after several minute.....Yucatan

 

Obviously, you weren't sailing at 19 knots.

 

That's what many people here are missing. Almost NONE of us understand that kind of speed and power on sailboat. If you're making judgement calls in this thread based on your own typical racing/sailing speed - you're doing it wrong.

With helm hard to port, this boat will stop very quickly. Bearing away does not work. I have done this @ 12 knots.

 

am I the only one on this thread without the experience of either bearing off or coming up with a canted keel @ 20kts? whole lot of experts out there...I never knew we had so much sailing depth out there.

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exclusion zone...schmoozon zone......they had NO idea the shoal lay ahead....tracks don't lie...

 

the navigator knew about the shoal, he said so - it was the reef he didn't know about....

 

You've gotta admit, the naming of the Cargados Carajos SHOALS is rather unfortunate... It's a damn archipelago, with drying reefs and at least one inhabited island, for chrissake. Not like something many of us typically think of when we hear of of "shoals", such as Nantucket, Diamond, Frying Pan along the Eastern seaboard of the US, that can still generally be sailed OVER, at least in benign conditions...

 

I know it's a stretch, but in seeking to find possible reasons for something so inexplicable, might the labeling of this group as "shoals" on whatever chart was being used possibly contributed to a failure during the initial, cursory examination of the route to take a closer look? It's interesting to note that on the second chart below, the Nazareth Bank - which is simply that, completely submerged - several "obstructions" are indicated. Whereas in the Cargados sector, NOTHING is indicated to be above the surface... Also notable, is the sort of "quilting" of that chart you described earlier, on the lower portion of the Nazareth Bank...

 

The greater mystery, to me, is what sounds to be a somewhat cavalier acceptance that they were "passing over some shoals"... These are tropical waters, in the middle of the freakin' Indian Ocean... "Shoals" don't exist out there, as a rule, without being abutted by some seriously crunchy bits of coral... And I agree with your other assessment, that extreme fatigue seems to be the only conceivable reason, why that connection might not have been made sooner...

 

 

it sounds like we are basically agreeing...

 

if you are sailing in 2500M of water, and it shoals to 50M, you don't say "Oh great.., 50M, that will be fine.." without zooming in and looking at every inch of your route over that shoal...

 

i think the fact that no actual land above sea level is indicated at a zoomed out view is just not that big a deal - you still check to see whats there.

 

and you can run into the same problem with raster charts

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I have sailed faster than 19 knots on a trimaran. I also have done nav on a boat that could do 15-16 with some breeze on. 19 isn't all that fast for the history of VOR boats. Doing a crash stop with the chute up at 15 at night would have been a huge clusterfuck. I would only have done it to avoid hitting something!

No clue about canting keels though -

 

180 degrees out of there...been there done that at night onto a reef...lucky to have bounced/power sailed off after several minute.....Yucatan

 

Obviously, you weren't sailing at 19 knots.

 

That's what many people here are missing. Almost NONE of us understand that kind of speed and power on sailboat. If you're making judgement calls in this thread based on your own typical racing/sailing speed - you're doing it wrong.

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You guys are all whack... the boys on deck had NO clue what was in front of them, port, starboard, windward or leeward. They were sailing like it was deep water all around.

Nobody below had much clue either, otherwise the nav station would have be full go at low zoom. They would have been shooting info to the on deck team. there would be a lookout standing on the windward rail.

 

They wouldn't have been sailing directly to the reef!

 

The second they hit they were doomed! The rudders sheared, the boat went into a skid and they skipped up on the reef.. Game over.

+1 x google plex.

 

By now it would appear that there are some important key facts.

 

Firstly, Wouter was off watch when the boat hit the reef.

 

Secondly, Wouter said he looked at the plotter before he went off watch to put his head down and saw 40 to 80 meters ahead. Clearly he was not aware of danger and did not alert anyone of possible obstacles on course.

 

Thirdly, on handing over of the watch, as is always the case, the watch leader would have been appraised by those going off watch of wind direction, sail trim and navigation. I find it highly unlikely that the oncoming watch captain would not have personally examined the plotter and course himself. If he did not that is his default because after all, Wouter was going to bed. If a course change was required the watch captain would have had to have situational awareness.

 

So whose fault? If Wouter was off watch he cannot be blamed. You cannot navigate while asleep. He may very well have misled the watch captain by relating his observation of the 40 to 80 meter depth. Notwithstanding this, at the point Wouter went to his cot, the baton had been passed, and the watch captain became the sole navigator and it was his obligation to make sure he knew his course. That included examining the course and himself checking the plotter. For this reason it is unfair to blame Wouter solely for this. If Nico was the watch leader then his comments which throw Wouter under the bus are completely unfair. Any fuckwit can navigate with a plotter and to blame this all on Wouter is in my view unfair. It's not as if your are relying on somebody with a sextant to determine your position. The on watch should have been watching the plotter.

 

The upside of this is, at the heel of the hunt nobody was hurt. It's only a fucking boat. Team vestas will get more publicity out of this than three VOR's. I sincerely hope that this doesn't become a case of "let's lynch the navigator".

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3 am - Just coming back from a good old fashioned street festival on my street.

I remember that I actually thought long and hard about this post before before being able to sleep last night. For some reason this topic seriously disturbed my ability to sleep. Then went through the day and to todays festival. I really should wait a bit and sober up before posting this but this is Sailing Anarchy. So no waiting. (No excuses either, I think I had a much more eloquent 2000 word version planned out before getting drunk on the neighbors booze.)

 

I've posted 4 screen captures from a 2 second sequence where Wouter is scrolling through 4 different zoom levels (some unknown time) after the impact. That solved the puzzle whether their maps showed the archipelago or not.

As a result at least one navigator said that there was way more than enough reason to zoom in further. That it was obvious that there was much more information on closer zoom levels.

 

On the other end of the spectrum some said that the crew of Team Vestas did not have enough time between change of the exclusion zones and the start of the leg to mark all the shallow spots as exclusion zones on their map as exclusion zones an thus ran aground. The undertone is that that the race organizer is at fault.

 

Seriously? You have to go through every part of your map and mark each and every shallow spot as exclusion zone because otherwise you can't avoid them? WTF? That is why a map is a map in the first place! It marks the shallow spots! If your map is useless when it comes to showing the shallow spots without explicitly marking each and every single one of them that's a systematic problem!

 

 

I've said it before, let me say it again: This is not about assigning blame, it's about the future.

It's about making the wrong decision harder. While at the same time making the right decision/reaction easier.

 

There may be some stop gap measures like fully zoomed in chart plotters for the drivers. But I still think changes to the software are the way to go. Mandated ones if necessary. No reson not to show (exaggerated) shallow parts on zoomed out views.

 

A VO65 draws about 5m, I thought that the crew was able to tell Expedition (and similar supplied programs) to mark every spot shallower than 4m or so as hard exclusion zone. (Way to shallow no matter what.) Then mark everything shallower than 10m or so as soft exclusion zone. (May hit the ground depending on tide and cant, human intervention is mandated.) That should mark most of the dangerous spots. Of course the crew may then go on and decide to cut it closer.

 

Seriously, for some stupid reason I thought that the development of the tools used in ocean racing was was more advanced than it is. Maybe I should party more and think less.... (And yes I did fsk up software development big time in the past. If you did not release a rm -rf / problem somewhere along the line you are not a real software dev.)

 

Sorry I can't remember the rest of my eloquent argument. Will try again tomorrow.

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Can they swim at 19kts?? (Seeing eye dogs, that is)

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20 knots is not fast. It's just fast for a sailboat. We expect the projected 20 knot cruise speed of the next Cowmaran to be a major barrier to market acceptance. Too slow. It will have other redeeming features, but plenty of powerboaters cruise much faster. You just look a bit further ahead.

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20 knots is not fast. It's just fast for a sailboat. We expect the projected 20 knot cruise speed of the next Cowmaran to be a major barrier to market acceptance. Too slow. It will have other redeeming features, but plenty of powerboaters cruise much faster. You just look a bit further ahead.

A stink pot might go faster than 20 kts but for how long?

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You guys are all whack... the boys on deck had NO clue what was in front of them, port, starboard, windward or leeward. They were sailing like it was deep water all around.

Nobody below had much clue either, otherwise the nav station would have be full go at low zoom. They would have been shooting info to the on deck team. there would be a lookout standing on the windward rail.

 

They wouldn't have been sailing directly to the reef!

 

The second they hit they were doomed! The rudders sheared, the boat went into a skid and they skipped up on the reef.. Game over.

+1 x google plex.

 

By now it would appear that there are some important key facts.

 

Firstly, Wouter was off watch when the boat hit the reef.

 

Secondly, Wouter said he looked at the plotter before he went off watch to put his head down and saw 40 to 80 meters ahead. Clearly he was not aware of danger and did not alert anyone of possible obstacles on course.

 

Thirdly, on handing over of the watch, as is always the case, the watch leader would have been appraised by those going off watch of wind direction, sail trim and navigation. I find it highly unlikely that the oncoming watch captain would not have personally examined the plotter and course himself. If he did not that is his default because after all, Wouter was going to bed. If a course change was required the watch captain would have had to have situational awareness.

 

So whose fault? If Wouter was off watch he cannot be blamed. You cannot navigate while asleep. He may very well have misled the watch captain by relating his observation of the 40 to 80 meter depth. Notwithstanding this, at the point Wouter went to his cot, the baton had been passed, and the watch captain became the sole navigator and it was his obligation to make sure he knew his course. That included examining the course and himself checking the plotter. For this reason it is unfair to blame Wouter solely for this. If Nico was the watch leader then his comments which throw Wouter under the bus are completely unfair. Any fuckwit can navigate with a plotter and to blame this all on Wouter is in my view unfair. It's not as if your are relying on somebody with a sextant to determine your position. The on watch should have been watching the plotter.

 

The upside of this is, at the heel of the hunt nobody was hurt. It's only a fucking boat. Team vestas will get more publicity out of this than three VOR's. I sincerely hope that this doesn't become a case of "let's lynch the navigator".

 

Agreed. The watch captain has the most responsibility. He should be absolutely certain at all times that there is safe water ahead. That means he looks at the chart, even if told all was fine.

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180 degrees out of there...been there done that at night onto a reef...lucky to have bounced/power sailed off after several minute.....Yucatan

 

Obviously, you weren't sailing at 19 knots.

 

That's what many people here are missing. Almost NONE of us understand that kind of speed and power on sailboat. If you're making judgement calls in this thread based on your own typical racing/sailing speed - you're doing it wrong.

With helm hard to port, this boat will stop very quickly. Bearing away does not work. I have done this @ 12 knots.

 

am I the only one on this thread without the experience of either bearing off or coming up with a canted keel @ 20kts? whole lot of experts out there...I never knew we had so much sailing depth out there.

Sounds like it!!! canting keel has no bearing, may not be elegant but could have saved the boat.

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180 degrees out of there...been there done that at night onto a reef...lucky to have bounced/power sailed off after several minute.....Yucatan

 

Obviously, you weren't sailing at 19 knots.

 

That's what many people here are missing. Almost NONE of us understand that kind of speed and power on sailboat. If you're making judgement calls in this thread based on your own typical racing/sailing speed - you're doing it wrong.

With helm hard to port, this boat will stop very quickly. Bearing away does not work. I have done this @ 12 knots.

 

Canting keel has no bearing Samatas?

 

to quote Jon Eisberg from another site (my comments in blue)....

 

" on such a boat, with a canting keel... Remember, the keel bulb would be positioned way out to windward (to port) at the time of impact.... many are speculating that it was likely one of the daggerboards that actually struck the reef initially... (your helm hard to port would have dug the canted keel into the reef immediately)

 

In addition to increasing the draft dramatically, it likely would have had the immediate effect of laying the boat on its ear, to port - and quite likely resulted in one or more of the guys on deck going overboard, as no one seems to be tethered...

 

stick with gentle sailing on a quiet lake before you question the boat handling skills of a pro.

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+1 x google plex.

 

By now it would appear that there are some important key facts.

 

Firstly, Wouter was off watch when the boat hit the reef.

 

Secondly, Wouter said he looked at the plotter before he went off watch to put his head down and saw 40 to 80 meters ahead. Clearly he was not aware of danger and did not alert anyone of possible obstacles on course.

 

Thirdly, on handing over of the watch, as is always the case, the watch leader would have been appraised by those going off watch of wind direction, sail trim and navigation. I find it highly unlikely that the oncoming watch captain would not have personally examined the plotter and course himself. If he did not that is his default because after all, Wouter was going to bed. If a course change was required the watch captain would have had to have situational awareness.

 

So whose fault? If Wouter was off watch he cannot be blamed. You cannot navigate while asleep. He may very well have misled the watch captain by relating his observation of the 40 to 80 meter depth. Notwithstanding this, at the point Wouter went to his cot, the baton had been passed, and the watch captain became the sole navigator ....

 

What?

 

That's not the way it works....

 

The navigator has primary responsibility for preparing the watches for everything that will happen during their watch, that it is within his power to predict

 

that includes wind shifts, course changes.., and most certainly.., reefs!

 

in fact the shoals and associated reefs in that region should have been being discussed for days ahead of time...

 

even if he, or the on watch, had discovered the reef half an hour before they would have hit it- by by zooming in and seeing it, or by seeing it with their eyes - and they managed to avoid it, the navigator still screwed up..., because they were passing it on the wrong side, and would have had to jibe back on to what was now the unfavored tack!!!

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Trying to catch up here. Who is currently on the chopping block?

 

First it was the navigator.

 

Then it was the skipper.

 

Next it was the skipper and the navigator.

 

There was some discussion about the helmsman.

 

The change in exclusion zones and the VORC was a hot topic.

 

And now it's the watch captain?

 

Did you guys forget the OBR? He was on the head at the time and for quite a while apparently. Don't you know that the wind from an Irish is a known toxin, can cause hallucinations, sexual impotence and temporary blindness amongst other things? How this has been overlooked by so many supposed experts is beyond me.

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"we are going over the top of some shoals now"...."40m deep" omg

 

That sure does add a new dynamic here. You go from 1000m to 40m and you know it. No one would check the chart at that point? And, I think that the camera man put that whole zoom thing to rest when he flipped through the zoom llevels at 6:03.

 

Hang on, there is an island nearby showing on the chart (even when zoomed out) so they're expecting shoal water.

 

40m depth in any racing sailor's head is still plenty of water.

 

My problem with this blame game is that `they fucked up' or `didn't look properly' means nothing.

 

I'm hoping that Wouter and the crew hook that chart plotter up and go back through the scale they were working at mostly, look at other reefs and islands they've sailed past and work out where the error lay… and before some quant says "they hit a reef", we still don't know the nitty gritty of the decision making process that led to a mistake.

 

Saying they "fucked up" or "made a big mistake" still doesn't give us an intelligent understanding of the processes.

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PS Can we once and for all understand that:

 

The reef was very large

 

The island was very small.

They show up very differently on the different levels of `zoom' or indeed on any paper chart.

 

"they were heading for a very large island" is stupidly incorrect and I hope any poster who says that is never given the role of navigator.

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Part of the problem is that the area they were in was excluded when they left Cape Town but the exclusion was removed when the tropical depression became threatening.

Hindsight suggests that maybe it should have remained excluded.

Not all the exclusions for this leg were published for security reasons.

Onimod seems to have been the first one in this thread to suggest this island was initially in a race exclusion zone, and he suggested it was a non-published one.

 

Where did he get that information?

 

because Fabergekiwi is right that the published initial exclusion zone does NOT appear to exclude this island (it appears to be in the race area by about a 100nm)

 

Published exclusion:

attachicon.gifleg2.jpg

 

And zoomed the island is in the race area:

attachicon.gifleg2zoomed.jpg

Ian Walker in his VOR video said they were only permitted to race in this area when the TD was developing.

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PS Can we once and for all understand that:

 

The reef was very large

 

The island was very small.

 

They show up very differently on the different levels of `zoom' or indeed on any paper chart.

 

"they were heading for a very large island" is stupidly incorrect and I hope any poster who says that is never given the role of navigator.

 

i didn't see anyone call it a big island..

 

but your point is really not that significant

 

if the water shoals from 2500M to 50M, the navigator should examine his path over the shoal in as much detail as possible.

 

there is no excuse for not doing so.

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180 degrees out of there...been there done that at night onto a reef...lucky to have bounced/power sailed off after several minute.....Yucatan

Obviously, you weren't sailing at 19 knots.

 

That's what many people here are missing. Almost NONE of us understand that kind of speed and power on sailboat. If you're making judgement calls in this thread based on your own typical racing/sailing speed - you're doing it wrong.

I have .....24 knots...short handed...."Thursdays Child" and that was almost 30 years ago by now~~~~~

24knots and my 180 degree off the reef where two separate things....however I'd still do the same at 24 knots....the thing that most people don't understand ,when referring to increasing draft through the maneuver is that the forward momentum pivots the keel off the bottom through the 180 and the boat is then left facing 180 out....barring away takes much too long arching further into the shallows attempting the escape

 

This is the Lindenburg Open 60? Then you have my humblest apologies. You definitely get it.

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I have sailed faster than 19 knots on a trimaran. I also have done nav on a boat that could do 15-16 with some breeze on. 19 isn't all that fast for the history of VOR boats. Doing a crash stop with the chute up at 15 at night would have been a huge clusterfuck. I would only have done it to avoid hitting something!

No clue about canting keels though -

 

180 degrees out of there...been there done that at night onto a reef...lucky to have bounced/power sailed off after several minute.....Yucatan

 

Obviously, you weren't sailing at 19 knots.

 

That's what many people here are missing. Almost NONE of us understand that kind of speed and power on sailboat. If you're making judgement calls in this thread based on your own typical racing/sailing speed - you're doing it wrong.

 

It's not just the speed. It's changing everything about this very complex, powered-up, canted boat in under 20 seconds with 3 crew on deck...at night.

 

Good luck with that.

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Hey Snore you say to me... "While I do not know you personally, I am respectfully calling "bullshit" on this. It is not the duty of the race official to warn of any and all hazards. If so, should they have told the teams to look out for Madagascar?

 

You go on to say "If you are a big enough boy to enter the race you should know how to avoid hard objects that could break your boat. Regarding pre-race warnings of possible hazards...."

 

I would normally agree ...however you have missed or ignored that the race course was set after the race started and after pre-race navigation planning was completed. An unusual circumstance like this and having regard for the constraints competitors experience as I have outlined IMO warranted a navigation warning. Warnings in Sailing Instructions are quite common.

 

 

 

Jack-

 

Honestly I missed that the course changed after the start.

 

That said, prudent navigators would have made note of the shoal, even though they were off limits at the start. If something went to shit and the boat needed to head west, knowing that the shoals existed- in Garmin, dropping some waypoints with proximity alarms-- would be part of my planning. But that is just how my mind works.

 

Assuming that the skipper and navigator normally study the only the charts for the immediate race area before leaving the dock, once the course changed- the skipper had the obligation to give the navigator and himself time to study them.

 

I agree notices can contain warnings, but the presence of a warning does not constitute advising of any and all threats- once again check out the Water Tribe warning.

 

Truly looking forward to the results of the official inquiry.

 

Agree. A warning in the SIs is a "nice to have" - but is not nor should ever be a replacement for the crew paying due diligence to their navigation and route planning. Saying the RC holds some responsibility for the incident would be like saying that Air Traffic Control in Denmark had responsibility for the Malaysian airliner getting shot down over the Ukraine because they didn't warn the crew that Ukrainian military jets had been shot down there near their route of flight in the previous weeks. It is up to the flight crew (and ultimately the Capt's responsibility) to check any and all notices to airmen (NOTAMS) that might affect safety.

 

Could the RC have warned them after they opened that new area? Sure, that would have been a nice bonus. Should the RC have been required to warn them? Absolutely not.

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PS Can we once and for all understand that:

 

The reef was very large

 

The island was very small.

 

They show up very differently on the different levels of `zoom' or indeed on any paper chart.

 

"they were heading for a very large island" is stupidly incorrect and I hope any poster who says that is never given the role of navigator.

 

i didn't see anyone call it a big island..

 

but your point is really not that significant

 

if the water shoals from 2500M to 50M, the navigator should examine his path over the shoal in as much detail as possible.

 

there is no excuse for not doing so.

If an island (that several posters have suggested they've hit) is shown at all layers of `zoom' and a reef is not (the two represent the same risk) then we may be starting to understand the issue.

 

In other words, if you can see land with shoal water around it at one level of zoom and then find that at another level of zoom that shoal water is in fact immovable reef… why not represent it as such and include it at any level of zoom. Ie the reef was very much bigger than the island.

 

The island was represented at any level of zoom; but the much larger reef… not.

 

I'm not trying to mitigate Wouter's fuckup, but sometimes the tired brain makes these associations.

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Sounds like it!!! canting keel has no bearing, may not be elegant but could have saved the boat.

If it has no bearing it isn't going to be very effective as a canting keel. :-)

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Hey Snore you say to me... "While I do not know you personally, I am respectfully calling "bullshit" on this. It is not the duty of the race official to warn of any and all hazards. If so, should they have told the teams to look out for Madagascar?

You go on to say "If you are a big enough boy to enter the race you should know how to avoid hard objects that could break your boat. Regarding pre-race warnings of possible hazards...."

I would normally agree ...however you have missed or ignored that the race course was set after the race started and after pre-race navigation planning was completed. An unusual circumstance like this and having regard for the constraints competitors experience as I have outlined IMO warranted a navigation warning. Warnings in Sailing Instructions are quite common.

 

Agree. See my earlier post. The amended sailing instructions came out ONE DAY BEFORE the leg 2 re-start, BUT, even on the original exclusion zone, running from Mauritius, north to Oman, the Shoal Bank & islands were clearly 100NM INSIDE the racing area! No excuse for not having included them as potential hazards, in leg preparation

 

 

Jack-

 

Honestly I missed that the course changed after the start.

 

That said, prudent navigators would have made note of the shoal, even though they were off limits at the start. If something went to shit and the boat needed to head west, knowing that the shoals existed- in Garmin, dropping some waypoints with proximity alarms-- would be part of my planning. But that is just how my mind works.

 

Assuming that the skipper and navigator normally study the only the charts for the immediate race area before leaving the dock, once the course changed- the skipper had the obligation to give the navigator and himself time to study them.

 

I agree notices can contain warnings, but the presence of a warning does not constitute advising of any and all threats- once again check out the Water Tribe warning.

 

Truly looking forward to the results of the official inquiry.

Agree. A warning in the SIs is a "nice to have" - but is not nor should ever be a replacement for the crew paying due diligence to their navigation and route planning. Saying the RC holds some responsibility for the incident would be like saying that Air Traffic Control in Denmark had responsibility for the Malaysian airliner getting shot down over the Ukraine because they didn't warn the crew that Ukrainian military jets had been shot down there near their route of flight in the previous weeks. It is up to the flight crew (and ultimately the Capt's responsibility) to check any and all notices to airmen (NOTAMS) that might affect safety.

 

Could the RC have warned them after they opened that new area? Sure, that would have been a nice bonus. Should the RC have been required to warn them? Absolutely not.

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realize that these guys are professional racers but that's a different thing than being a professional sailor or seafarer. I'm sure that each man aboard has an impressive resume of racing wins, can knowledgeably talk racing rules and tactics and sail trim way beyond my comprehension, and were chosen to be aboard because they had legitimately earned the right to be perceived to be an asset to a racing crew, but how many of them have ever skippered a cruising sailboat for even a week or two, choosing their own course someplace they were unfamiliar with where there were lots of obstacles to avoid? I haven't any knowledge of all the specific crew members aboard this boat, but if they're like the racing sailors I do know, they can work magic as far as getting more boat speed out of a hull/rig than I thought possible, but basic things like navigation and having the discipline to regularly zoom down and clear their whole intended course just isn't something they'd think to do. Little details like making sure you don't run into islands is either not an issue because they are accustomed to racing on a course that somebody else layed out, or it's somebody else's job to avoid hitting things. A valuable racing crew member on a boat like this may be a foredeck or sail trim whiz, but have never spent hardly any time doing such mundane things as choosing or plotting a course except in reference to other boats in the race or in reference to current or wind shifts. In other words, (though I don't know) I wouldn't be surprised if there were only a few crew members aboard who would be considered competent seamen in the traditional sense of that word and I think that help explains why someone other than the off watch skipper or off watch navigator didn't happen to notice that they were headed directly for an island. Most of them are pure racers and very good at whatever they were hired to do, but few of them are good all around seamen because normally there's no reason for them to need to be. I happen to know only one professional sailboat racer and he's been at the game for quite a few years with some success, but I can think of literally 100's of people I'd sooner trust to deliver my boat from one side of Pen Bay to the other on a foggy night. But I have absolutely no doubt that in a race he'd be the first one across the finish line.

Interest points indeed

I don't have any money at the moment, but I've got a stack of Mt. Gay hats. I'm willing to put one up (you can pick any year between 1998 - 2013 if you win) and bet that every one of those guys is capable of doing every job on the boat including captain and navigator.

You would lose your money. A lot of the crew members are professional dinghy sailors. Some of them never sailed long offshore races, or even set foot on a yacht. These people are hired because they have proven themselves to be very talented and competitive. It doesn't mean they all have the knowledge and expirience to safely navigate a boat across the ocean. To qualify as a skipper is even more difficult. A skipper is a manager as well as a sailor. A lot of pro sailors shall never qualify as skippers, no matter how many times they sail the VOR. Remember how pro sailor Michel Desjoyeaux failed in the Mapfre team.

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Green light to build the new boat I understand. Kiwi boaatbuilders in Europe have been asked to stay instead of going home for Xmas. The question now is when will they rejoin the race?

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So at this level sailing does the helmsman have the authority to stick the boat head to wind? 19kts, someone notes we are going over shoals, other pros declare whats that..... when are the brakes in order?

I would expect someone to check the GPS plotter ASAP instead of staring into the night. And if that didn't happen someone should have given the order to do so. This event is going to be a textbook example for team development and management courses.

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realize that these guys are professional racers but that's a different thing than being a professional sailor or seafarer. I'm sure that each man aboard has an impressive resume of racing wins, can knowledgeably talk racing rules and tactics and sail trim way beyond my comprehension, and were chosen to be aboard because they had legitimately earned the right to be perceived to be an asset to a racing crew, but how many of them have ever skippered a cruising sailboat for even a week or two, choosing their own course someplace they were unfamiliar with where there were lots of obstacles to avoid? I haven't any knowledge of all the specific crew members aboard this boat, but if they're like the racing sailors I do know, they can work magic as far as getting more boat speed out of a hull/rig than I thought possible, but basic things like navigation and having the discipline to regularly zoom down and clear their whole intended course just isn't something they'd think to do. Little details like making sure you don't run into islands is either not an issue because they are accustomed to racing on a course that somebody else layed out, or it's somebody else's job to avoid hitting things. A valuable racing crew member on a boat like this may be a foredeck or sail trim whiz, but have never spent hardly any time doing such mundane things as choosing or plotting a course except in reference to other boats in the race or in reference to current or wind shifts. In other words, (though I don't know) I wouldn't be surprised if there were only a few crew members aboard who would be considered competent seamen in the traditional sense of that word and I think that help explains why someone other than the off watch skipper or off watch navigator didn't happen to notice that they were headed directly for an island. Most of them are pure racers and very good at whatever they were hired to do, but few of them are good all around seamen because normally there's no reason for them to need to be. I happen to know only one professional sailboat racer and he's been at the game for quite a few years with some success, but I can think of literally 100's of people I'd sooner trust to deliver my boat from one side of Pen Bay to the other on a foggy night. But I have absolutely no doubt that in a race he'd be the first one across the finish line.

Interest points indeed

I don't have any money at the moment, but I've got a stack of Mt. Gay hats. I'm willing to put one up (you can pick any year between 1998 - 2013 if you win) and bet that every one of those guys is capable of doing every job on the boat including captain and navigator.

You would lose your money. A lot of the crew members are professional dinghy sailors. Some of them never sailed long offshore races, or even set foot on a yacht. These people are hired because they have proven themselves to be very talented and competitive. It doesn't mean they all have the knowledge and expirience to safely navigate a boat across the ocean. To qualify as a skipper is even more difficult. A skipper is a manager as well as a sailor. A lot of pro sailors shall never qualify as skippers, no matter how many times they sail the VOR. Remember how pro sailor Michel Desjoyeaux failed in the Mapfre team.

I don't understand your Desjoyeaux example. He is a successful skipper of crewed boats. The mess on Mapfre was probably more about not enough preparation and having too many crocodiles in one pond.

Also, if you sail single-handed you have to do your own navigation. Many crew on other VOR boats have single-handed or short-handed sailing experience

.

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"we are going over the top of some shoals now"...."40m deep" omg

 

That sure does add a new dynamic here. You go from 1000m to 40m and you know it. No one would check the chart at that point? And, I think that the camera man put that whole zoom thing to rest when he flipped through the zoom llevels at 6:03.

 

Hang on, there is an island nearby showing on the chart (even when zoomed out) so they're expecting shoal water. 40m depth in any racing sailor's head is still plenty of water.

Wouter posted on his personal Facebook page that he checked the chart before he went to sleep, he detirmined the depth to be between 42m and 80m. So they knew they were sailing in relatively shoal water. It's not like the depth suddenly jumped from 1000 to 40m.

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So at this level sailing does the helmsman have the authority to stick the boat head to wind? 19kts, someone notes we are going over shoals, other pros declare whats that..... when are the brakes in order?

I would expect someone to check the GPS plotter ASAP instead of staring into the night. And if that didn't happen someone should have given the order to do so. This event is going to be a textbook example for team development and management courses.

 

This is not aimed necessarily at you, but it annoys me when people confuse "management" and "leadership". The two are not the same.

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realize that these guys are professional racers but that's a different thing than being a professional sailor or seafarer. <Cut> Most of them are pure racers and very good at whatever they were hired to do, but few of them are good all around seamen because normally there's no reason for them to need to be. I happen to know only one professional sailboat racer and he's been at the game for quite a few years with some success, but I can think of literally 100's of people I'd sooner trust to deliver my boat from one side of Pen Bay to the other on a foggy night. But I have absolutely no doubt that in a race he'd be the first one across the finish line.

Interest points indeed

I don't have any money at the moment, but I've got a stack of Mt. Gay hats. I'm willing to put one up (you can pick any year between 1998 - 2013 if you win) and bet that every one of those guys is capable of doing every job on the boat including captain and navigator.

You would lose your money. A lot of the crew members are professional dinghy sailors. Some of them never sailed long offshore races, or even set foot on a yacht. These people are hired because they have proven themselves to be very talented and competitive. It doesn't mean they all have the knowledge and expirience to safely navigate a boat across the ocean. To qualify as a skipper is even more difficult. A skipper is a manager as well as a sailor. A lot of pro sailors shall never qualify as skippers, no matter how many times they sail the VOR. Remember how pro sailor Michel Desjoyeaux failed in the Mapfre team.

I don't understand your Desjoyeaux example. He is a successful skipper of crewed boats. The mess on Mapfre was probably more about not enough preparation and having too many crocodiles in one pond.

Also, if you sail single-handed you have to do your own navigation. Many crew on other VOR boats have single-handed or short-handed sailing experience

Indeed. According to http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2014/11/30/questions-asked-volvo-ocean-race-accident/ Team Alvimedica and Dongfeng Race were well aware of the risks in this area. Alvimedica navigator Will Oxley actually is a marine scientist who has spent 8 years monitoring the Great Barrier Reef. He probably knows how to find a reef ;-)

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20 knots is not fast. It's just fast for a sailboat. We expect the projected 20 knot cruise speed of the next Cowmaran to be a major barrier to market acceptance. Too slow. It will have other redeeming features, but plenty of powerboaters cruise much faster. You just look a bit further ahead.

A stink pot might go faster than 20 kts but for how long?

For as long as it is designed to, but my point was that navigating at those speeds is not only possible, it's routine.

 

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/1989-07-27/sports/8902220883_1_trans-atlantic-master-mechanic-tom-gentry

 

 

Two-time offshore world racing champion Tom Gentry set the record for a trans-Atlantic powerboat crossing by more than 18 hours Wednesday by reaching the finish line off England`s Bishop Rock in his 110-foot Gentry Eagle at 10:56 p.m. EDT.

 

Gentry, who left New York at 8:49 a.m. Monday, completed the 3,437-mile North Atlantic Ocean sojourn in 62 hours, 7 minutes. He averaged 55.61 mph while eclipsing Englishman Richard Branson`s 1986 mark of 80 hours, 31 minutes.

 

 

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So at this level sailing does the helmsman have the authority to stick the boat head to wind? 19kts, someone notes we are going over shoals, other pros declare whats that..... when are the brakes in order?

I would expect someone to check the GPS plotter ASAP instead of staring into the night. And if that didn't happen someone should have given the order to do so. This event is going to be a textbook example for team development and management courses.

 

This is not aimed necessarily at you, but it annoys me when people confuse "management" and "leadership". The two are not the same.

I meant to write leadership, looks like I'm getting sloppy too.

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20 knots is not fast. It's just fast for a sailboat. We expect the projected 20 knot cruise speed of the next Cowmaran to be a major barrier to market acceptance. Too slow. It will have other redeeming features, but plenty of powerboaters cruise much faster. You just look a bit further ahead.

A stink pot might go faster than 20 kts but for how long?

For as long as it is designed to, but my point was that navigating at those speeds is not only possible, it's routine.

 

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/1989-07-27/sports/8902220883_1_trans-atlantic-master-mechanic-tom-gentry

 

>

Two-time offshore world racing champion Tom Gentry set the record for a trans-Atlantic powerboat crossing by more than 18 hours Wednesday by reaching the finish line off England`s Bishop Rock in his 110-foot Gentry Eagle at 10:56 p.m. EDT.

 

Gentry, who left New York at 8:49 a.m. Monday, completed the 3,437-mile North Atlantic Ocean sojourn in 62 hours, 7 minutes. He averaged 55.61 mph while eclipsing Englishman Richard Branson`s 1986 mark of 80 hours, 31 minutes.

 

 

It's not so much that 20 knots is fast (although I think it is) but that it can change direction with a gybe or a tack or a slow change of direction. It's not like the course is set and forget; it's constantly changeable.

 

These boats cover charts fast and in all sorts of direction.

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20 knots is not fast. It's just fast for a sailboat. We expect the projected 20 knot cruise speed of the next Cowmaran to be a major barrier to market acceptance. Too slow. It will have other redeeming features, but plenty of powerboaters cruise much faster. You just look a bit further ahead.

A stink pot might go faster than 20 kts but for how long?

For as long as it is designed to, but my point was that navigating at those speeds is not only possible, it's routine.

 

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/1989-07-27/sports/8902220883_1_trans-atlantic-master-mechanic-tom-gentry

 

 

 

 

But you are forgetting a very important part of your point.

 

You aren't spending hours studying the wind patterns on the same chart to insure maximum speed. You also take the most direct route you can along the curvature of the world you aren't turning at odd angles to increase speeds. In a powerboat you care enough about the weather to avoid high winds, and you aim for the light wind areas. an occasional look at everything ahead every hour is fine. You aren't staring at weather overlay after weather overlay model for every day for weeks on end. In a Sailboat you want wind so you are taking a less optimal route.

 

All of that is a lot more work for the navigator.

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Does an attempt every 10 years qualify as a good example of how 'routine' high-speed nav is?

 

 

For as long as it is designed to, but my point was that navigating at those speeds is not only possible, it's routine.

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Part of the problem is that the area they were in was excluded when they left Cape Town but the exclusion was removed when the tropical depression became threatening.

Hindsight suggests that maybe it should have remained excluded.

Not all the exclusions for this leg were published for security reasons.

Onimod seems to have been the first one in this thread to suggest this island was initially in a race exclusion zone, and he suggested it was a non-published one.

 

Where did he get that information?

 

because Fabergekiwi is right that the published initial exclusion zone does NOT appear to exclude this island (it appears to be in the race area by about a 100nm)

 

Published exclusion:

attachicon.gifleg2.jpg

 

And zoomed the island is in the race area:

attachicon.gifleg2zoomed.jpg

Ian Walker in his VOR video said they were only permitted to race in this area when the TD was developing.

OK, I re-listened to that video. I would say it is a bit ambiguous. He might have been saying that the islands were in an (unpublished) initial exclusion zone OR he might have been saying that there was a whole big area (but not necessarily exactly including these islands) opened up (the day before the start) which made the prep-planning more confusing. The later interpretation is certainly more consistent with the published SI's (which would have always included these islands in the race area).

 

I would still be curious where onimod got the idea that there were unpublished exclusion areas? Did this whole idea originate from those few comments of Ian's; or is there a second source? Does anyone know where the 'pink and green' exclusion area chart (which is floating around the thread) came from (Google can find no source for the pic)? Did someone here create it?

 

In any case, we do know pretty much for sure that these islands were opened up the day before the start, and not after the start during racing.

 

This all seems to remove/reduce one point of exculpatory explanation for the error.

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realize that these guys are professional racers but that's a different thing than being a professional sailor or seafarer. I'm sure that each man aboard has an impressive resume of racing wins, can knowledgeably talk racing rules and tactics and sail trim way beyond my comprehension, and were chosen to be aboard because they had legitimately earned the right to be perceived to be an asset to a racing crew, but how many of them have ever skippered a cruising sailboat for even a week or two, choosing their own course someplace they were unfamiliar with where there were lots of obstacles to avoid? I haven't any knowledge of all the specific crew members aboard this boat, but if they're like the racing sailors I do know, they can work magic as far as getting more boat speed out of a hull/rig than I thought possible, but basic things like navigation and having the discipline to regularly zoom down and clear their whole intended course just isn't something they'd think to do. Little details like making sure you don't run into islands is either not an issue because they are accustomed to racing on a course that somebody else layed out, or it's somebody else's job to avoid hitting things. A valuable racing crew member on a boat like this may be a foredeck or sail trim whiz, but have never spent hardly any time doing such mundane things as choosing or plotting a course except in reference to other boats in the race or in reference to current or wind shifts. In other words, (though I don't know) I wouldn't be surprised if there were only a few crew members aboard who would be considered competent seamen in the traditional sense of that word and I think that help explains why someone other than the off watch skipper or off watch navigator didn't happen to notice that they were headed directly for an island. Most of them are pure racers and very good at whatever they were hired to do, but few of them are good all around seamen because normally there's no reason for them to need to be. I happen to know only one professional sailboat racer and he's been at the game for quite a few years with some success, but I can think of literally 100's of people I'd sooner trust to deliver my boat from one side of Pen Bay to the other on a foggy night. But I have absolutely no doubt that in a race he'd be the first one across the finish line.

Interest points indeed
I don't have any money at the moment, but I've got a stack of Mt. Gay hats. I'm willing to put one up (you can pick any year between 1998 - 2013 if you win) and bet that every one of those guys is capable of doing every job on the boat including captain and navigator.
You would lose your money. A lot of the crew members are professional dinghy sailors. Some of them never sailed long offshore races, or even set foot on a yacht. These people are hired because they have proven themselves to be very talented and competitive. It doesn't mean they all have the knowledge and expirience to safely navigate a boat across the ocean. To qualify as a skipper is even more difficult. A skipper is a manager as well as a sailor. A lot of pro sailors shall never qualify as skippers, no matter how many times they sail the VOR. Remember how pro sailor Michel Desjoyeaux failed in the Mapfre team.

Hey Geerty...congratulations you have just won first prize for the most clueless, insulting, dumb arsed post on this topic. Keep up the good work.

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Part of the problem is that the area they were in was excluded when they left Cape Town but the exclusion was removed when the tropical depression became threatening.

Hindsight suggests that maybe it should have remained excluded.

Not all the exclusions for this leg were published for security reasons.

Onimod seems to have been the first one in this thread to suggest this island was initially in a race exclusion zone, and he suggested it was a non-published one.

 

Where did he get that information?

 

because Fabergekiwi is right that the published initial exclusion zone does NOT appear to exclude this island (it appears to be in the race area by about a 100nm)

 

Published exclusion:

attachicon.gifleg2.jpg

 

And zoomed the island is in the race area:

attachicon.gifleg2zoomed.jpg

Ian Walker in his VOR video said they were only permitted to race in this area when the TD was developing.

OK, I re-listened to that video. I would say it is a bit ambiguous. He might have been saying that the islands were in an (unpublished) initial exclusion zone OR he might have been saying that there was a whole big area (but not necessarily exactly including these islands) opened up (the day before the start) which made the prep-planning more confusing. The later interpretation is certainly more consistent with the published SI's (which would have always included these islands in the race area).

 

I would still be curious where onimod got the idea that there were unpublished exclusion areas? Did this whole idea originate from those few comments of Ian's; or is there a second source? Does anyone know where the 'pink and green' exclusion area chart (which is floating around the thread) came from (Google can find no source for the pic)? Did someone here create it?

 

In any case, we do know pretty much for sure that these islands were opened up the day before the start, and not after the start during racing.

 

This all seems to remove/reduce one point of exculpatory explanation for the error.

 

The published exclusion zones were not the ones the teams had. Jack, Knut both confirmed this with me in CPT.

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OK, I re-listened to that video. I would say it is a bit ambiguous. He might have been saying that the islands were in an (unpublished) initial exclusion zone OR he might have been saying that there was a whole big area (but not necessarily exactly including these islands) opened up (the day before the start) which made the prep-planning more confusing. The later interpretation is certainly more consistent with the published SI's (which would have always included these islands in the race area).

 

I would still be curious where onimod got the idea that there were unpublished exclusion areas? Did this whole idea originate from those few comments of Ian's; or is there a second source? Does anyone know where the 'pink and green' exclusion area chart (which is floating around the thread) came from (Google can find no source for the pic)? Did someone here create it?

 

In any case, we do know pretty much for sure that these islands were opened up the day before the start, and not after the start during racing.

 

This all seems to remove/reduce one point of exculpatory explanation for the error.

 

Mr.Clean did an

in Capetown with VOR race director Jack Lloyd. A topic at the beginning was that the public SI may or may not contain all piracy related exclusion zones. That got repeated at 5 minutes directly followed by announcing the pending change of the exclusion zone due to weather.

 

As far as I understood it the green and pink chart was drawn to show the change to the exclusion zone due to weather. Probably from the public SI.

 

Mr.Clean was faster.

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The published exclusion zones were not the ones the teams had. Jack, Knut both confirmed this with me in CPT.

Thanks. Interesting. Did the pink/green chart come from Volvo?

 

But we agree that the islands were opened up as a race area the day before the start?

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realize that these guys are professional racers but that's a different thing than being a professional sailor or seafarer. I'm sure that each man aboard has an impressive resume of racing wins, can knowledgeably talk racing rules and tactics and sail trim way beyond my comprehension, and were chosen to be aboard because they had legitimately earned the right to be perceived to be an asset to a racing crew, but how many of them have ever skippered a cruising sailboat for even a week or two, choosing their own course someplace they were unfamiliar with where there were lots of obstacles to avoid? I haven't any knowledge of all the specific crew members aboard this boat, but if they're like the racing sailors I do know, they can work magic as far as getting more boat speed out of a hull/rig than I thought possible, but basic things like navigation and having the discipline to regularly zoom down and clear their whole intended course just isn't something they'd think to do. Little details like making sure you don't run into islands is either not an issue because they are accustomed to racing on a course that somebody else layed out, or it's somebody else's job to avoid hitting things. A valuable racing crew member on a boat like this may be a foredeck or sail trim whiz, but have never spent hardly any time doing such mundane things as choosing or plotting a course except in reference to other boats in the race or in reference to current or wind shifts. In other words, (though I don't know) I wouldn't be surprised if there were only a few crew members aboard who would be considered competent seamen in the traditional sense of that word and I think that help explains why someone other than the off watch skipper or off watch navigator didn't happen to notice that they were headed directly for an island. Most of them are pure racers and very good at whatever they were hired to do, but few of them are good all around seamen because normally there's no reason for them to need to be. I happen to know only one professional sailboat racer and he's been at the game for quite a few years with some success, but I can think of literally 100's of people I'd sooner trust to deliver my boat from one side of Pen Bay to the other on a foggy night. But I have absolutely no doubt that in a race he'd be the first one across the finish line.

Interest points indeed

I don't have any money at the moment, but I've got a stack of Mt. Gay hats. I'm willing to put one up (you can pick any year between 1998 - 2013 if you win) and bet that every one of those guys is capable of doing every job on the boat including captain and navigator.

You would lose your money. A lot of the crew members are professional dinghy sailors. Some of them never sailed long offshore races, or even set foot on a yacht. These people are hired because they have proven themselves to be very talented and competitive. It doesn't mean they all have the knowledge and expirience to safely navigate a boat across the ocean. To qualify as a skipper is even more difficult. A skipper is a manager as well as a sailor. A lot of pro sailors shall never qualify as skippers, no matter how many times they sail the VOR. Remember how pro sailor Michel Desjoyeaux failed in the Mapfre team.

 

 

The Volvo alone is 38,000 sailing miles. None of these men step off of dinghy onto a Volvo. They all have been a part of many big boat campaigns and distance races. The crews of the Volvo boats have more Ocean Big Boat Sailing and Racing after the first leg than the overwhelming vast majority of sailors you will ever have the chance to stand in a room with. One Volvo alone would be greater than the equivalent of 50 Old School SORC or every Chicago Mac ever sailed. jtsailjt you are clueless when it comes to the hired help on these types of boats. What is outlandish is these guys are sailing these massive machines 24/7 for days on end with 9 guys. Everybody is more than capable of doing everything on the boat and much more plus most can go out an whipass on any one design fleet.

 

 

Here is a sample "dingy" resume....

 

Wouter Verbraak - a world class yachtsman.

He has skippered HUGO BOSS in the Barcelona World Race, he has sailed several iterations of the Volvo Ocean Race, Americas Cup, Oryx Quest, and Tour de France à la Voile, won the Admirals cup, TP52 MedCup, Middle Sea Race, Cape Town to Bahia Race and the Sydney to Hobart, co-skippered the Elanders and Avant boats in the Volvo Baltic Race and he has advised sailors on strategy and weather in the Vendee, Route du Rhum, the Jaques Vabre and the Olympics.



After almost ten years of dinghy and big boat sailing on Melges 24, Mumm30, IMX 38 etc, Wouter then got his big win being part of the Dutch Admiral's Cup team in 1999, winning the Offshore World Championships.

A year later after completing his Masters Degree in Sydney on sea breezes, Wouter got picked up by Jean Yves Bernot and Knut Frostad, to be the co-navigator in the djuice dragons Volvo Ocean Race campaign; the start of his professional sailing career.



Since then, Wouter has worked for ten years building up his skill set from weather and strategy specialist to electronics and data-analysis in the America's Cup and TP52 classes, and built up a vast amount of ocean racing experience in two Volvo Ocean Races, more than ten Atlantic crossings, and getting top results in most of the Ocean Racing Classics.

In 2011 Wouter showed his leadership talents by skippering the Hugo Boss in the double handed Barcelona World Race.

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Just FYI - 20 knot speeds have been pretty routine for ships for well over a century now. The idea that 20 knots is some brave new world not understood my mere mortals is kind of :lol::rolleyes:

IIRC even before steam ships a clipper ship could get pretty close to that.

 

Does an attempt every 10 years qualify as a good example of how 'routine' high-speed nav is?

 

 

For as long as it is designed to, but my point was that navigating at those speeds is not only possible, it's routine.

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walking tall - http://sailinganarchy.com/2014/12/04/walking-tall/ …

Retweeted by Wouter Verbraak
These guys are hiding from nothing.

 

"However, our planned route changed just before we left, and with the focus on the start and the tricky conditions, I erroneously thought I would have enough information with me to look at the changes in our route as we went along. I was wrong."

 

This is the part that is just a load of crap. He had everything he needed to avoid that reef. Most, if not all, cruising boats routinely alter course and navigate on the fly. If what he says here is true, then he really isn't competent to navigate this vessel. And no one thinks that to be the case.

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Does anyone have access to an ECDIS system with official ENCs for this area?

 

I am curious if it has better/smoother 'zooming' of the area than the c-map/expedition combo; and if it does, if it is better primarily because of the charts or the charting system.

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walking tall - http://sailinganarchy.com/2014/12/04/walking-tall/ …

Retweeted by Wouter Verbraak
These guys are hiding from nothing.

 

"Once I can get power to the boat’s laptops (if they survived) I can look further into how we didn’t see the reef on the electronic charts [emph. ours]."

 

This is the other part that just can't be believed. There is just no way that, in the first few minutes after the crash, that he didn't go over to those laptops and asses their position. He had to, at least, figure out their predicament to see if there were options to get off that reef. And then, for the next couple of days while they were on that island tending to the boat, half his brain had to be going through every aspect of how this happened.

 

And, I don't fault him for the use of "we." This is definitely a "we" issue.

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walking tall - http://sailinganarchy.com/2014/12/04/walking-tall/ …

Retweeted by Wouter Verbraak
These guys are hiding from nothing.

 

"Once I can get power to the boat’s laptops (if they survived) I can look further into how we didn’t see the reef on the electronic charts [emph. ours]."

 

This is the other part that just can't be believed. There is just no way that, in the first few minutes after the crash, that he didn't go over to those laptops and asses their position. He had to, at least, figure out their predicament to see if there were options to get off that reef. And then, for the next couple of days while they were on that island tending to the boat, half his brain had to be going through every aspect of how this happened.

 

And, I don't fault him for the use of "we." This is definitely a "we" issue.

 

Of course he goes over the charts right after the crash, it was even captured on camera by the OBR. (Where you can also see that the reefs appear only at the highest resolutions.) He writes "... I can look further into how we didn’t see the reef ...".

 

He certainly went through that checking process, but with no ways of actually checking on his recollections.

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walking tall - http://sailinganarchy.com/2014/12/04/walking-tall/ …

Retweeted by Wouter Verbraak
These guys are hiding from nothing.

 

"Once I can get power to the boat’s laptops (if they survived) I can look further into how we didn’t see the reef on the electronic charts [emph. ours]."

 

This is the other part that just can't be believed. There is just no way that, in the first few minutes after the crash, that he didn't go over to those laptops and asses their position. He had to, at least, figure out their predicament to see if there were options to get off that reef. And then, for the next couple of days while they were on that island tending to the boat, half his brain had to be going through every aspect of how this happened.

 

And, I don't fault him for the use of "we." This is definitely a "we" issue.

 

Of course he goes over the charts right after the crash, it was even captured on camera by the OBR. (Where you can also see that the reefs appear only at the highest resolutions.) He writes "... I can look further into how we didn’t see the reef ...".

 

He certainly went through that checking process, but with no ways of actually checking on his recollections.

 

The best view of the reef appears at the highest resolutions. But at the lower resolutions, there are those 2 land specs and massive contour lines showing that something is certainly up. Ok, so he said "further." That is great. But including that in his "mea culpa" sounds like he doesn't already know exactly how this happened.

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walking tall - http://sailinganarchy.com/2014/12/04/walking-tall/ …

Retweeted by Wouter Verbraak
These guys are hiding from nothing.

 

"Once I can get power to the boat’s laptops (if they survived) I can look further into how we didn’t see the reef on the electronic charts [emph. ours]."

 

This is the other part that just can't be believed. There is just no way that, in the first few minutes after the crash, that he didn't go over to those laptops and asses their position. He had to, at least, figure out their predicament to see if there were options to get off that reef. And then, for the next couple of days while they were on that island tending to the boat, half his brain had to be going through every aspect of how this happened.

 

And, I don't fault him for the use of "we." This is definitely a "we" issue.

 

Of course he goes over the charts right after the crash, it was even captured on camera by the OBR. (Where you can also see that the reefs appear only at the highest resolutions.) He writes "... I can look further into how we didn’t see the reef ...".

 

He certainly went through that checking process, but with no ways of actually checking on his recollections.

 

The best view of the reef appears at the highest resolutions. But at the lower resolutions, there are those 2 land specs and massive contour lines showing that something is certainly up. Ok, so he said "further." That is great. But including that in his "mea culpa" sounds like he doesn't already know exactly how this happened.

 

It sounds like that because that is what it is meant to say. Yes, at the time of writing he doesn't know exactly how it happened that he overlooked that problem.

 

Is it sooooooo surprising that someone who's just gone through the most traumatic experience of his life is second guessing every recollection and needs time and as much evidence as possible to sort things out?

 

Edit: BTW he also writes "However, our planned route changed just before we left, and with the focus on the start and the tricky conditions, I erroneously thought I would have enough information with me to look at the changes in our route as we went along. I was wrong." I.e. he knows the root problem, lack of preparation.

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walking tall - http://sailinganarchy.com/2014/12/04/walking-tall/ …

Retweeted by Wouter Verbraak
These guys are hiding from nothing.

 

"Once I can get power to the boat’s laptops (if they survived) I can look further into how we didn’t see the reef on the electronic charts [emph. ours]."

 

This is the other part that just can't be believed. There is just no way that, in the first few minutes after the crash, that he didn't go over to those laptops and asses their position. He had to, at least, figure out their predicament to see if there were options to get off that reef. And then, for the next couple of days while they were on that island tending to the boat, half his brain had to be going through every aspect of how this happened.

 

And, I don't fault him for the use of "we." This is definitely a "we" issue.

 

Of course he goes over the charts right after the crash, it was even captured on camera by the OBR. (Where you can also see that the reefs appear only at the highest resolutions.) He writes "... I can look further into how we didn’t see the reef ...".

 

He certainly went through that checking process, but with no ways of actually checking on his recollections.

 

The best view of the reef appears at the highest resolutions. But at the lower resolutions, there are those 2 land specs and massive contour lines showing that something is certainly up. Ok, so he said "further." That is great. But including that in his "mea culpa" sounds like he doesn't already know exactly how this happened.

 

It sounds like that because that is what it is meant to say. Yes, at the time of writing he doesn't know exactly how it happened that he overlooked that problem.

 

Is it sooooooo surprising that someone who's just gone through the most traumatic experience of his life is second guessing every recollection and needs time and as much evidence as possible to sort things out?

 

Edit: BTW he also writes "However, our planned route changed just before we left, and with the focus on the start and the tricky conditions, I erroneously thought I would have enough information with me to look at the changes in our route as we went along. I was wrong." I.e. he knows the root problem, lack of preparation.

 

No, he wasn't wrong in thinking he didn't have enough information. He was wrong in that pr release. He had everything he needed to safely keep that boat off the rocks. He just didn't use that information.

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The best view of the reef appears at the highest resolutions. But at the lower resolutions, there are those 2 land specs and massive contour lines showing that something is certainly up. Ok, so he said "further." That is great. But including that in his "mea culpa" sounds like he doesn't already know exactly how this happened.

 

It sounds like that because that is what it is meant to say. Yes, at the time of writing he doesn't know exactly how it happened that he overlooked that problem.

 

Is it sooooooo surprising that someone who's just gone through the most traumatic experience of his life is second guessing every recollection and needs time and as much evidence as possible to sort things out?

 

Edit: BTW he also writes "However, our planned route changed just before we left, and with the focus on the start and the tricky conditions, I erroneously thought I would have enough information with me to look at the changes in our route as we went along. I was wrong." I.e. he knows the root problem, lack of preparation.

 

No, he wasn't wrong in thinking he didn't have enough information. He was wrong in that pr release. He had everything he needed to safely keep that boat off the rocks. He just didn't use that information.

 

This, as rest is easily refutable. But there is no point in going further. You're just on a crusade.

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The best view of the reef appears at the highest resolutions. But at the lower resolutions, there are those 2 land specs and massive contour lines showing that something is certainly up. Ok, so he said "further." That is great. But including that in his "mea culpa" sounds like he doesn't already know exactly how this happened.

 

It sounds like that because that is what it is meant to say. Yes, at the time of writing he doesn't know exactly how it happened that he overlooked that problem.

 

Is it sooooooo surprising that someone who's just gone through the most traumatic experience of his life is second guessing every recollection and needs time and as much evidence as possible to sort things out?

 

Edit: BTW he also writes "However, our planned route changed just before we left, and with the focus on the start and the tricky conditions, I erroneously thought I would have enough information with me to look at the changes in our route as we went along. I was wrong." I.e. he knows the root problem, lack of preparation.

 

No, he wasn't wrong in thinking he didn't have enough information. He was wrong in that pr release. He had everything he needed to safely keep that boat off the rocks. He just didn't use that information.

 

This, as rest is easily refutable. But there is no point in going further. You're just on a crusade.

Just a crusade to get this right. If I post something "easily refutable," then refute it.

 

As of now, we have a Captain that seems to have been on watch saying "I have to trust that the crew will get their responsibilities right" and a navigator saying that he didn't have everything he needed to keep the boat off the rocks. Both are horseshit.

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JZK, you are to the Team Vestas grounding as Doug Lord is to foiling.

 

Yes, the big problem here is not the skipper and navigator skirting responsibility for putting their multi-million dollar boat on the rocks and putting the crew in danger. It is me calling BS on their statements about it.

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Here is my guess after 14 pages: Fatigue.

In the flying world when very experienced crews make very basic mistakes, it frequently comes down to just being tired. I know when I am dog-tired I can look at a simple problem and it just takes forever to kick my brain into gear to solve it. I know a tired crew is likely to "load shed" and just do their job and quit thinking about the wider issues.

So.......IMHO and IANAVORNAV......get tired enough and task saturated enough and you will let things slide.

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JZK, you are to the Team Vestas grounding as Doug Lord is to foiling.

Yes, the big problem here is not the skipper and navigator skirting responsibility for putting their multi-million dollar boat on the rocks and putting the crew in danger. It is me calling BS on their statements about it.

No, the problem is that you've made a semi-intelligent point, you have been heard, but now you are a broken record.

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JZK, you are to the Team Vestas grounding as Doug Lord is to foiling.

Yes, the big problem here is not the skipper and navigator skirting responsibility for putting their multi-million dollar boat on the rocks and putting the crew in danger. It is me calling BS on their statements about it.

No, the problem is that you've made a semi-intelligent point, you have been heard, but now you are a broken record.

Yet people keep posting crap like "These guys are hiding from nothing."

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......Lefty...you probably sifted through all the trash found this too...it's the only thing worthwhile mention I've seen,,though I believe redtractorguy's been reliable with his tidbits before......NZ..you got more on this??

 

Green light to build the new boat I understand. Kiwi boaatbuilders in Europe have been asked to stay instead of going home for Xmas. The question now is when will they rejoin the race?

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Here is my guess after 14 pages: Fatigue.

In the flying world when very experienced crews make very basic mistakes, it frequently comes down to just being tired. I know when I am dog-tired I can look at a simple problem and it just takes forever to kick my brain into gear to solve it. I know a tired crew is likely to "load shed" and just do their job and quit thinking about the wider issues.

So.......IMHO and IANAVORNAV......get tired enough and task saturated enough and you will let things slide.

 

If fatigue truly was the problem that caused this shipwreck, then that falls on the skipper. How do the Vendee Globe sailors manage?

 

Is it too repetitive to point out that many boats navigate just fine with much smaller crews? I hope no one gets too offended at my pointing that out.

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JZK, you are to the Team Vestas grounding as Doug Lord is to foiling.

 

Yes, the big problem here is not the skipper and navigator skirting responsibility for putting their multi-million dollar boat on the rocks and putting the crew in danger. It is me calling BS on their statements about it.

Sure:

- both the skipper and navigator publicly state as soon as they are reachable that human error, and in particular lack of navigation prep in CT, was the cause

- they publish images and vids of the events as soon as possible

And they are full of BS?

 

You're no White Knight in shining armor confronting the powerful jzk. If bio-diesel could be made out of internet bullshit crusades, yours would be enough to power the whole US Navy for a century.

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JZK, you are to the Team Vestas grounding as Doug Lord is to foiling.

 

Yes, the big problem here is not the skipper and navigator skirting responsibility for putting their multi-million dollar boat on the rocks and putting the crew in danger. It is me calling BS on their statements about it.

Sure:

- both the skipper and navigator publicly state as soon as they are reachable that human error, and in particular lack of navigation prep in CT, was the cause

- they publish images and vids of the events as soon as possible

And they are full of BS?

 

You're no White Knight in shining armor confronting the powerful jzk. If bio-diesel could be made out of internet bullshit crusades, yours would be enough to power the whole US Navy for a century.

 

 

Yes, the captain said it was human error - just not his. And the navigator said his error was in thinking that he had all the tools needed to prevent this.

 

Both a load of crap. My most sincere apologies for having to keep correcting people like you that keep getting it wrong.

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JZK, you are to the Team Vestas grounding as Doug Lord is to foiling.

Yes, the big problem here is not the skipper and navigator skirting responsibility for putting their multi-million dollar boat on the rocks and putting the crew in danger. It is me calling BS on their statements about it.

No, the problem is that you've made a semi-intelligent point, you have been heard, but now you are a broken record.
Yet people keep posting crap like "These guys are hiding from nothing."

I've made my point. And since I don't have even 10,000 offshore miles to base comments on the incident I will go back to lurking on this thread.

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