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PaulinVictoria

Team Vestas grounded

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kent_island_sailor, on 07 Dec 2014 - 08:56, said:snapback.png

Here is my guess after 14 pages: Fatigue.

.

...congratulations Kent...it only took you 14 pages .......much better than some :mellow:<_<

 

 

 

Yes, the big problem here is not the skipper and navigator skirting responsibility for putting their multi-million dollar boat on the rocks and putting the crew in danger. It is me calling BS on their statements about it.

 

You're no White Knight in shining armor confronting the powerful jzk. If bio-diesel could be made out of internet bullshit crusades, yours would be enough to power the whole US Navy for a century.

.

 

...Captain pot calls-out Captain kettle :lol:

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How do the Vendee Globe sailors manage?

 

All the potential dangers are pretty well known - Kergulens etc. Doesn't mean they don't get it wrong too.

 

081215chemineepoujoulat2.jpg

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JZK, you are to the Team Vestas grounding as Doug Lord is to foiling.

Yes, the big problem here is not the skipper and navigator skirting responsibility for putting their multi-million dollar boat on the rocks and putting the crew in danger. It is me calling BS on their statements about it.

No, the problem is that you've made a semi-intelligent point, you have been heard, but now you are a broken record.
Yet people keep posting crap like "These guys are hiding from nothing."

I've made my point. And since I don't have even 10,000 offshore miles to base comments on the incident I will go back to lurking on this thread.

 

Here is thing. You don't need 10,000 offshore miles to get this right. You just need to have ever been in charge of a boat. Make sure there is clear water ahead. That is it. All you need is your cell phone and a $25 app.

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How do the Vendee Globe sailors manage?

 

All the potential dangers are pretty well known - Kergulens etc. Doesn't mean they don't get it wrong too.

 

081215chemineepoujoulat2.jpg

 

To be fair, that's perhaps not the best example... Bernard Stamm knew exactly where he was, after all, it was other issues that led to that grounding:

 

 

The grounding occurred after Bernard Stamm arrived Sunday night, the wind got up gusting to 50 knots. He could not stop the boat and pull her alongside the buoy, in spite of some help from Dominique Wavre, who had gone on board. Very quickly the boat reached a patch of weed. He lost control of the boat and found himself on the rocks.

 

http://www.sail-world.com/USA/index.cfm?SEID=0&Nid=51874&SRCID=0&ntid=0&tickeruid=0&tickerCID=0

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......Lefty...you probably sifted through all the trash found this too...it's the only thing worthwhile mention I've seen,,though I believe redtractorguy's been reliable with his tidbits before......NZ..you got more on this??

 

Green light to build the new boat I understand. Kiwi boaatbuilders in Europe have been asked to stay instead of going home for Xmas. The question now is when will they rejoin the race?

 

Judicious use of the ignore button my friend.

 

Kiwi sources are usually pretty good.

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I'm telling you guys, you have it all wrong. The OBR let one go while editing with his laptop on the head. Nico started to hallucinate and Wouter temporarily lost vision in both eyes. Irish Wind, as they call it, is a well known in the Irish Navy. All seamen are encouraged to go top sides whenever possible. And, for this reason, there are no submarines in the Irish Navy.

 

Below is an example of two sailors affected by Irish Wind. Note: the two on the left are able seamen while the two on the right are just ordinary seamen.

post-81201-0-88979400-1417973830_thumb.jpg

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......Lefty...you probably sifted through all the trash found this too...it's the only thing worthwhile mention I've seen,,though I believe redtractorguy's been reliable with his tidbits before......NZ..you got more on this??

 

Green light to build the new boat I understand. Kiwi boaatbuilders in Europe have been asked to stay instead of going home for Xmas. The question now is when will they rejoin the race?

 

Judicious use of the ignore button my friend.

 

Kiwi sources are usually pretty good.

.

 

...I'll start a new thread for actual positive news and progress of Vespa's resurrection ;)

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I am stammering trying to find the words to respond to the Mentality......"Vestas" had vitually every modern navigational technology...the best equipment money could buy...hand pick captain and crew...the boat was set on course over a place boats can not go...the last thing they need is to be givien another boat in this race...hey they can do whatever in the sailboat racing world that they can become a part of....sympathy for this supreme BLUNDER deserves nothing but investigation for the benefit of future sailors, althought this message has been delivered many time down through the AGES. AS to OH....they did a heroic job salvaging and caring for the marine enviroment...."after stomping a trail to and fro over the "living"table top reef west of the wreckage"...BS....there are 10 quailfied sailors for every man on Vestas....that would give their right nut....to have taken their place....STFU...and quietly walk away Team Vestas

 

Can someone in the know confirm that a new build is happening!?

It kind of reminds me of the scene in "The World According to Garp" in which Garp immediately agrees to purchase a house that is hit by a crashing single engine plane. The broker, thinking that the crash must have certainly destroyed any chances of a deal, asks why? Garp, very pleased, realizes that the chance of another plane hitting the house has just become infinitesimal.

 

Those who have grounded before can attest to this, but I think once you have grounded, it is highly unlikely you will ever let it happen again. Grounding and surviving puts you in an entirely different echelon of seamanship. And, no, not just the stupid echelon. It's an experience like no other. In fact, when you consider the odds of proffesional sailors at this level grounding twice, it might almost be a qualification to look for in a CV - grounded and survived. I don't know of any sailors at the top end who have made this mistake twice. Please post if anyone can find an example.

 

Besides the enormous upside to the Vestas PR in returning to the race, not returning would be a PR disaster. The campaign and the careers should not be left a wreck on the reef.

 

Fire away.

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All you need is your cell phone and a $25 app.

 

Yeah go ahead, will not work offshore, shows your experience.

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All you need is your cell phone and a $25 app.

Yeah go ahead, will not work offshore, shows your experience.

How so? Works just fine. Shows your experience.

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I am stammering trying to find the words to respond to the Mentality......"Vestas" had vitually every modern navigational technology...the best equipment money could buy...hand pick captain and crew...the boat was set on course over a place boats can not go...the last thing they need is to be givien another boat in this race...hey they can do whatever in the sailboat racing world that they can become a part of....sympathy for this supreme BLUNDER deserves nothing but investigation for the benefit of future sailors, althought this message has been delivered many time down through the AGES. AS to OH....they did a heroic job salvaging and caring for the marine enviroment...."after stomping a trail to and fro over the "living"table top reef west of the wreckage"...BS....there are 10 quailfied sailors for every man on Vestas....that would give their right nut....to have taken their place....STFU...and quietly walk away Team Vestas

 

Can someone in the know confirm that a new build is happening!?

There will be another race....I am quiet sure they all will be better for this....however I am not in the camp of ...hey give them another boat so they can finish the race....the race they are out of soley because of their own doing.....I only came to this thread after reading Wouters words....spinning ...the less he says after accepting complete responsibilty...the better....every time he walks into a sailing scene for the rest of his life....people will be murmmering ....that is something he has not encountered...but will...I am not out to hang anything around his neck...unless he fails to stand up and accept complete responsiblity...

.

.....I'd think that beyond completing the race,,,a huge part of Vestas' ROI would be all the events they attend in the period between this and next edition of the VOR,no?

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SailBlueH20,

 

^^. Fair statement. It is debatable. I think Wouter has and should take full responsibility for his role. But I'm also in the camp that there is much more to it. As far as setting someone with Wouter's stellar credentials and commitment to the sport adrift, I think the road to Master Seaman, sailing Nirvana, is not a straight trajectory, but is wrought with mishaps. To become a Shoalin Sailor, one must endure hard lessons. Seems like Wouter has torn the rice paper underfoot in this one. But someday soon he will walk across it without a trace.

 

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. Grounding and surviving puts you in an entirely different echelon of seamanship. And, no, not just the stupid echelon. It's an experience like no other. In fact, when you consider the odds of proffesional sailors at this level grounding twice, it might almost be a qualification to look for in a CV - grounded and survived..

 

There were certain high level jobs at GE that you could not hold unless you had on your resume the experience of bouncing back from a bad failure. In these jobs they only wanted people who had demonstrated that resilience, and because failure tends to reset egos to an appropriate level. They found people who had never failed badly tended to be more brittle (when they eventually did face a bad situation) and had inappropriate egos.

 

Bernard Stamm has a number of failures on his resume, but only one (public) grounding.

 

 

 

All you need is your cell phone and a $25 app.

 

Yeah go ahead, will not work offshore, shows your experience.

LeoV, you are usually right, but this time you are wrong. Most/all smart phones and tablets have full functional quite accurate gps's built into them (actually an integral part of the cell phone chip to allow emergency call 911/112 location finding) and their nav programs work just fine out of cell phone range.

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I am stammering trying to find the words to respond to the Mentality...ewww... wouldn't it be warm and fuzzy if "Vestas" could rejoin the race..."Vestas" had vitually every modern navigational technology...the best equipment money could buy...hand pick captain and crew...the boat was set on course over a place boats can not go...the last thing they need is to be givien another boat in this race...hey they can do whatever in the sailboat racing world that they can become a part of....sympathy for this supreme BLUNDER deserves nothing but investigation for the benefit of future sailors, althought this message has been delivered many time down through the AGES. AS to OH....they did a heroic job salvaging and caring for the marine enviroment...."after stomping a trail to and fro over the "living"table top reef west of the wreckage"...BS....there are 10 quailfied sailors for every man on Vestas....that would give their right nut....to have taken their place....STFU...and quietly walk away Team Vestas

 

Can someone in the know confirm that a new build is happening!?

Interesting. Captain Seadoo has been joined by another moron while I have been away from this thread.

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180 degrees out of there...been there done that at night onto a reef...lucky to have bounced/power sailed off after several minute.....Yucatan

 

Obviously, you weren't sailing at 19 knots.

 

That's what many people here are missing. Almost NONE of us understand that kind of speed and power on sailboat. If you're making judgement calls in this thread based on your own typical racing/sailing speed - you're doing it wrong.

With helm hard to port, this boat will stop very quickly. Bearing away does not work. I have done this @ 12 knots.

 

Canting keel has no bearing Samatas?

 

to quote Jon Eisberg from another site (my comments in blue)....

 

" on such a boat, with a canting keel... Remember, the keel bulb would be positioned way out to windward (to port) at the time of impact.... many are speculating that it was likely one of the daggerboards that actually struck the reef initially... (your helm hard to port would have dug the canted keel into the reef immediately)

 

In addition to increasing the draft dramatically, it likely would have had the immediate effect of laying the boat on its ear, to port - and quite likely resulted in one or more of the guys on deck going overboard, as no one seems to be tethered...

 

stick with gentle sailing on a quiet lake before you question the boat handling skills of a pro.

In fact the keel would help spin the boat around, by increasing draft the keel would be in deep water preventing the boat from skittering on the reef, good change momentum could have gain them room to maneuver. You need to have a driver with experience to react with alacrity. This is an intuitive preventive measure. No gentle sailing for me with thousands of miles offshore mostly singlehanded including sss transpac. The sound of breaking waves is still with me on the atlantic med and pacific requiring immediate reaction.

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All you need is your cell phone and a $25 app.

Yeah go ahead, will not work offshore, shows your experience.

How so? Works just fine. Shows your experience.

Ah, Estar explained, for me cell phone aint a smartphone, linguistics. Sorry.

 

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Can someone in the know confirm that a new build is happening!?

 

No comment.............. ;)

I hope not, why should they get the advantage of a new boat??

 

What happens to the next team that need a new one? Or any of the spares being used to set up the new hull?

 

Putting them on a ship between legs was a step, giving a team a new frikken boat is beyond a joke.

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All you need is your cell phone and a $25 app.

Yeah go ahead, will not work offshore, shows your experience.

How so? Works just fine. Shows your experience.
Ah, Estar explained, for me cell phone aint a smartphone, linguistics. Sorry.

Oh, so you thought that I meant a non smartphone app that works onshore only?

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All you need is your cell phone and a $25 app.

 

Yeah go ahead, will not work offshore, shows your experience.

 

Bullshit LeoV - what sort of phone do you have? Mine has a gps and one app for example is called navionics....it works offshore - at least i have been there....you sucker can even charge it on 12v - but maybe you dont know what this is either....

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All you need is your cell phone and a $25 app.

 

Yeah go ahead, will not work offshore, shows your experience.

Bullshit LeoV - what sort of phone do you have? Mine has a gps and one app for example is called navionics....it works offshore - at least i have been there....you sucker can even charge it on 12v - but maybe you dont know what this is either....

You guys seem to under estimate Leo Vs prior experience.

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realize that these guys are professional racers but that's a different thing than being a professional sailor or seafarer. I'm sure that each man aboard has an impressive resume of racing wins, can knowledgeably talk racing rules and tactics and sail trim way beyond my comprehension, and were chosen to be aboard because they had legitimately earned the right to be perceived to be an asset to a racing crew, but how many of them have ever skippered a cruising sailboat for even a week or two, choosing their own course someplace they were unfamiliar with where there were lots of obstacles to avoid? I haven't any knowledge of all the specific crew members aboard this boat, but if they're like the racing sailors I do know, they can work magic as far as getting more boat speed out of a hull/rig than I thought possible, but basic things like navigation and having the discipline to regularly zoom down and clear their whole intended course just isn't something they'd think to do. Little details like making sure you don't run into islands is either not an issue because they are accustomed to racing on a course that somebody else layed out, or it's somebody else's job to avoid hitting things. A valuable racing crew member on a boat like this may be a foredeck or sail trim whiz, but have never spent hardly any time doing such mundane things as choosing or plotting a course except in reference to other boats in the race or in reference to current or wind shifts. In other words, (though I don't know) I wouldn't be surprised if there were only a few crew members aboard who would be considered competent seamen in the traditional sense of that word and I think that help explains why someone other than the off watch skipper or off watch navigator didn't happen to notice that they were headed directly for an island. Most of them are pure racers and very good at whatever they were hired to do, but few of them are good all around seamen because normally there's no reason for them to need to be. I happen to know only one professional sailboat racer and he's been at the game for quite a few years with some success, but I can think of literally 100's of people I'd sooner trust to deliver my boat from one side of Pen Bay to the other on a foggy night. But I have absolutely no doubt that in a race he'd be the first one across the finish line.

Interest points indeed

I don't have any money at the moment, but I've got a stack of Mt. Gay hats. I'm willing to put one up (you can pick any year between 1998 - 2013 if you win) and bet that every one of those guys is capable of doing every job on the boat including captain and navigator.

You would lose your money. A lot of the crew members are professional dinghy sailors. Some of them never sailed long offshore races, or even set foot on a yacht. These people are hired because they have proven themselves to be very talented and competitive. It doesn't mean they all have the knowledge and expirience to safely navigate a boat across the ocean. To qualify as a skipper is even more difficult. A skipper is a manager as well as a sailor. A lot of pro sailors shall never qualify as skippers, no matter how many times they sail the VOR. Remember how pro sailor Michel Desjoyeaux failed in the Mapfre team.

 

 

The Volvo alone is 38,000 sailing miles. None of these men step off of dinghy onto a Volvo. They all have been a part of many big boat campaigns and distance races. The crews of the Volvo boats have more Ocean Big Boat Sailing and Racing after the first leg than the overwhelming vast majority of sailors you will ever have the chance to stand in a room with. One Volvo alone would be greater than the equivalent of 50 Old School SORC or every Chicago Mac ever sailed. jtsailjt you are clueless when it comes to the hired help on these types of boats. What is outlandish is these guys are sailing these massive machines 24/7 for days on end with 9 guys. Everybody is more than capable of doing everything on the boat and much more plus most can go out an whipass on any one design fleet.

 

 

Here is a sample "dingy" resume....

 

Wouter Verbraak - a world class yachtsman.

He has skippered HUGO BOSS in the Barcelona World Race, he has sailed several iterations of the Volvo Ocean Race, Americas Cup, Oryx Quest, and Tour de France à la Voile, won the Admirals cup, TP52 MedCup, Middle Sea Race, Cape Town to Bahia Race and the Sydney to Hobart, co-skippered the Elanders and Avant boats in the Volvo Baltic Race and he has advised sailors on strategy and weather in the Vendee, Route du Rhum, the Jaques Vabre and the Olympics.



After almost ten years of dinghy and big boat sailing on Melges 24, Mumm30, IMX 38 etc, Wouter then got his big win being part of the Dutch Admiral's Cup team in 1999, winning the Offshore World Championships.

A year later after completing his Masters Degree in Sydney on sea breezes, Wouter got picked up by Jean Yves Bernot and Knut Frostad, to be the co-navigator in the djuice dragons Volvo Ocean Race campaign; the start of his professional sailing career.



Since then, Wouter has worked for ten years building up his skill set from weather and strategy specialist to electronics and data-analysis in the America's Cup and TP52 classes, and built up a vast amount of ocean racing experience in two Volvo Ocean Races, more than ten Atlantic crossings, and getting top results in most of the Ocean Racing Classics.

In 2011 Wouter showed his leadership talents by skippering the Hugo Boss in the double handed Barcelona World Race.

Wouter certainly does have an impressive racing resume but it doesn't mention any sailing other than in organized races. But my point wasn't really to criticize Wouter because there's been plenty of that already and I understand that there's a chain of events that could potentially lead to almost all of us running into a charted island. No doubt he screwed up big time but who hasn't? Fatigue, change in plans/routing, software, screen size, and probably other issues none of us have even thought of all contributed to Wouters lack of awareness of the island. If you reread my post, i was referring not so much to the captain and navigator, but more to the rest of the crew to raise the possibility that the crew may have only a very few savvy mariners and the rest were racing specialists who didn't have much experience with the more routine habits and tasks involved in overall good seamanship. But if you are right, and everyone aboard these boats knows everyone else's job and practices overall good seamanship, then WHY did none of the other crewmembers take a look at the chart and ask why they were headed for a reef? I think it's because that wasn't considered to be their job and it might even have been considered a faux pas to be "tinkering" with the navigators screens or questioning his routing (after all, as you pointed out, he's got a VERY impressive resume as a navigator!), and despite some of them having many ocean crossings under their belt, they had never had to be involved in basic navigation so never bothered to check on the boats intended course, just took it or granted that somebody else had that covered. In the hundreds of posts about this incident, I've seen plenty of fingers pointed at the captain and the navigator, but very few seem to be putting much blame on the rest of the crew. Why is that? After all, according to you they are all accomplished mariners and yet each of them just allowed his boat to run into a charted island! I think they correctly aren't being much blamed because it's well understood that they were doing just what they were good at and were hired to do, making the boat go faster than the other boats in the fleet almost as if they were involved in a dinghy race on steroids, but NOT participating in navigation decisions or regularly checking on their position as good seamanship demands that any watchkeeper do. I realize it's an ultra competitive environment and to have a chance at winning, making the boat go fast ALL the time is super important, but I think that this accident shows that it's not wise to compartmentalize important tasks like basic navigation to the extent this crew must have done. If you disagree, how else do you explain all 9 guys apparently not even being aware of an island right in their path?

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All you need is your cell phone and a $25 app.

 

Yeah go ahead, will not work offshore, shows your experience.

Bullshit LeoV - what sort of phone do you have? Mine has a gps and one app for example is called navionics....it works offshore - at least i have been there....you sucker can even charge it on 12v - but maybe you dont know what this is either....

You guys seem to under estimate Leo Vs prior experience.

When someone with Leo's experience tries to take an unfounded shot at someone but instread puts their foot in their mouth, just own up to it rather than lying about it.

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All you need is your cell phone and a $25 app.

 

Yeah go ahead, will not work offshore, shows your experience.

 

Bullshit LeoV - what sort of phone do you have? Mine has a gps and one app for example is called navionics....it works offshore - at least i have been there....you sucker can even charge it on 12v - but maybe you dont know what this is either....

I don't know if it's supposed to work without a cellphone or wifi signal but I tried using my iPhone 4s with the Navionics app inflight by propping it up against the windshield and it didn't work.

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Ateam, youre curious what I use for phone ?

I am a fashionable guy (hum not) so I carry a Samsung flip phone. Which are getting a bit more popular in sales.

No need for a smart phone for me. Got a pad at home. When I am out of the house the last thing I want to do is being glued to a screen.

I do that at home to much anyway.

 

For the rest, got a sextant in the cupboard, and know how to use it in emergency at least.

Run a Toshiba satellite with Maxsea. Toughbooks of Panasonic like DongFeng has are better though.
I read pilots and charts, even chart no1 , funny in this case read page 2:
http://www.nauticalcharts.noaa.gov/mcd/chart1/ChartNo1.pdf

 

Done landings on strange shores with dead reckoning alone, 3 days crossing.
Did landings an a strange shore without any maps of the area except oversailor, due to dropping out of a race going to a place we could repair.

Did sail in the Caribbean for years, familair with reefs in that way, and yes I touched them once, but was expected.

Running with 20 knts in the night, been there. Would not like to combine this with a reef.

 

Biggest mistake with paper charts I made, folding a chart right over an obstacle, luck has it I never went there.

 

Max,

prior is maybe a good description, been a while that I crossed a big body of water.

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All this complete and utter toss about throwing in a tack so the keel bounces off the reef, or a fucking gybe to spin away from solid danger; I can't believe what I'm reading from some here (luckily very few ... but persistent to the point of total mental imbalance). The boat is doing near 20 knots and ondeck crew surprised about what they're suddenly seeing vaguely in the dark, talking of only a few seconds. Okay say the helm hardens up head to wind, keel swings down as boat comes upright, crash. A sudden bearaway ... what BS, same result, crash. Also I believe the first hit was the leeward daggerboard not the canted keel (which must have momentarily slowed the boat speed and maybe saved the crew from being catapulted forward). All this shouda/coulda. There was zero escape once they were in 40-50metres from the reef ledge.

Remember Dongfeng almost did the same thing ... in daylight ... also gave AD a moment too, in daylight.

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Ateam, youre curious what I use for phone ?

I am a fashionable guy (hum not) so I carry a Samsung flip phone. Which are getting a bit more popular in sales.

No need for a smart phone for me. Got a pad at home. When I am out of the house the last thing I want to do is being glued to a screen.

I do that at home to much anyway.

 

For the rest, got a sextant in the cupboard, and know how to use it in emergency at least.

Run a Toshiba satellite with Maxsea. Toughbooks of Panasonic like DongFeng has are better though.

I read pilots and charts, even chart no1 , funny in this case read page 2:

http://www.nauticalcharts.noaa.gov/mcd/chart1/ChartNo1.pdf

 

Done landings on strange shores with dead reckoning alone, 3 days crossing.

Did landings an a strange shore without any maps of the area except oversailor, due to dropping out of a race going to a place we could repair.

Did sail in the Caribbean for years, familair with reefs in that way, and yes I touched them once, but was expected.

Running with 20 knts in the night, been there. Would not like to combine this with a reef.

 

 

Biggest mistake with paper charts I made, folding a chart right over an obstacle, luck has it I never went there.

 

Max,

prior is maybe a good description, been a while that I crossed a big body of water.

There is SO MUCH information on a paper chart...and yes Chart 1 is a must !....modern sat/nav/comm is wonderful...too....as in also

 

 

i prefer paper charts as well. Anyway an ipad or another tablet (maybe even the sony experia watertight) with navionics is in my opinion a great backup solution. Redundant system - ofcourse u have to download the charts beforehand on your devise ---aeh that again requires preplanning....;-)

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IN this spirit:

we have seen this screenshot:

C-Map_Cargados_Carajos_Shoal_zpsef681f9d

From Jon Eisberg.

 

You see the magenta line with a 20. A blue shoal with a 200 meter line.

And this is day setting, wonder how it looks at night setting.

 

For me on this level, would I zoom more...

Maybe, because I am confused but the marks in the magenta line, the interrupted line.

 

So who can tell me quickly what they mean ?
We have 4 minutes...

 

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Ateam, youre curious what I use for phone ?

I am a fashionable guy (hum not) so I carry a Samsung flip phone. Which are getting a bit more popular in sales.

No need for a smart phone for me. Got a pad at home. When I am out of the house the last thing I want to do is being glued to a screen.

I do that at home to much anyway.

 

For the rest, got a sextant in the cupboard, and know how to use it in emergency at least.

Run a Toshiba satellite with Maxsea. Toughbooks of Panasonic like DongFeng has are better though.

I read pilots and charts, even chart no1 , funny in this case read page 2:

http://www.nauticalcharts.noaa.gov/mcd/chart1/ChartNo1.pdf

 

Done landings on strange shores with dead reckoning alone, 3 days crossing.

Did landings an a strange shore without any maps of the area except oversailor, due to dropping out of a race going to a place we could repair.

Did sail in the Caribbean for years, familair with reefs in that way, and yes I touched them once, but was expected.

Running with 20 knts in the night, been there. Would not like to combine this with a reef.

 

 

Biggest mistake with paper charts I made, folding a chart right over an obstacle, luck has it I never went there.

 

Max,

prior is maybe a good description, been a while that I crossed a big body of water.

There is SO MUCH information on a paper chart...and yes Chart 1 is a must !....modern sat/nav/comm is wonderful...too....as in also

 

 

These boats are seriously wet when they are arced up. The regular navigating needs to be done by very wet sailors. There is no changing out of and back into party gear each time you want to check the nav. The navigator/skipper represent a quarter of the crew and are on deck sailing the boat as well. They necessarily navigate the boat quickly and dripping wet at times.

 

Paper charts really suffer in this environment and you can see the boat is not set up to use them at all.(except as a backup to systems failure)

 

I'm still hoping for Wouter to do what he said and give us an understanding of the mistake. Enquiring minds want to know...

 

"Once I can get power to the boats laptops (if they survived) I can look further into how we didn't see the reef on the electronic charts. "

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I am not finding anything more then

nr 43 page 73 of chart 1,
http://www.nauticalcharts.noaa.gov/mcd/chart1/ChartNo1.pdf

 

 

For Dutch readers ( and I suppose Verbaak would have read it:)

http://books.google.nl/books/about/Zeekaarten.html?id=DntSAAAACAAJ&redir_esc=y

Magnificent book about how a chart is made, study material at the Dutch maritime colleges in my time.

 

Their advice on this situation,
Chapter: trustworthiness of maps, section 10.2 chart depths, point 10 is valid, as the points before indicate insufficient survey and they mention too that coral is a growing thing .

Point 10 is stay at least at the 200m line.

 

 

Tricky, I think Vestas and VOr are the first to hear it, we poor sailors later.

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The GPS won't get a lock through a glass windshield. The wires for the windshield heat are very good GPS shields. The side windows in commercial aircraft may not give you enough view of the sky. My aviation mapping program works just great - as does Navionics - when flying with a Plexiglas windshield. My 4s GPS works where there is no cell coverage just fine.

 

 

 

All you need is your cell phone and a $25 app.

 

Yeah go ahead, will not work offshore, shows your experience.

 

Bullshit LeoV - what sort of phone do you have? Mine has a gps and one app for example is called navionics....it works offshore - at least i have been there....you sucker can even charge it on 12v - but maybe you dont know what this is either....

I don't know if it's supposed to work without a cellphone or wifi signal but I tried using my iPhone 4s with the Navionics app inflight by propping it up against the windshield and it didn't work.

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The solid smooth blue is an area with no data - have to zoom in to see what is there ;)

IN this spirit:

we have seen this screenshot:

C-Map_Cargados_Carajos_Shoal_zpsef681f9d

From Jon Eisberg.

 

You see the magenta line with a 20. A blue shoal with a 200 meter line.

And this is day setting, wonder how it looks at night setting.

 

For me on this level, would I zoom more...

Maybe, because I am confused but the marks in the magenta line, the interrupted line.

 

So who can tell me quickly what they mean ?
We have 4 minutes...

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in the Chart image #61551

...is that a light ???...@ the southern tip of the "Shoal"...I can't tell ...interesting if there is/was...

 

Yes, it is...

 

Bottom line is, VESTAS ran up on a reef within a mile or two of within one of the very few lighhouses in the Indian Ocean between Mauritius and the entrance to the Persian Gulf...

 

Of course, there's a high probability it might have been inoperative, or burning dim... Hell, it may very well no longer even exist...

 

However, that light, and Cocos Island, show up on British Admiralty chart 4072 - Indian Ocean Western Part - which at a glance shows THE ENTIRE ROUTE OF LEG 2, at a glance:

 

british-admiralty-nautical-chart-4072-in

 

And yet, neither feature is indicated on C-Map zoomed in to a much larger scale:

 

 

C-Map_Cargados_Carajos_Shoal_zpsef681f9d

 

Unfathomable, to me...

 

Obviously, the notion of referring to a paper chart in today's world, aboard a VOR 65, sounds ludicrous to many here... But I'd bet anything, that had even the simplest act of plotting their Noon-to-Noon runs on BA 4072, would have likely prevented this grounding... Wouter would have had to have been blind, or catatonic with fatigue, not to have noticed a freakin' ISLAND with a damn LIGHTHOUSE on it, directly in their path, within an inch or two of their position at noon that day on that single sheet of paper...

 

Of course, a similar thing can be accomplished electronically, no doubt... Has far more to do with the establishment of a procedure, a routine, than the tools that are being used... But there's still a hell of a lot to be said for the Old School way maintaining a record of fixes on a regular interval, might have helped Wouter get his head out of the game or weather routing and tactics, and back to the ability to better see the forest for the trees in terms of the safe navigation of the yacht...

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Kent:
Sorry was thinking of the Magenta line :)

 

Some modern airplanes have photo chromatic windows, they are even worse for blocking gps signals if I am right.

 

Jon,

 

bet youre right, it could be the protocols.

we even dont know when the navigator went off watch.

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IN this spirit:

we have seen this screenshot:

C-Map_Cargados_Carajos_Shoal_zpsef681f9d

 

Maybe, because I am confused but the marks in the magenta line, the interrupted line.

 

So who can tell me quickly what they mean ?

We have 4 minutes...

The purple line with broken ++ marks . . . I believe means "Seaward limit of territorial sea", which is interesting because it would definitely imply there is an island in there somewhere (I think in this case it is a 12nm limit)

 

Look here:http://mapserver.maptech.com/mapserver/nautical_symbols/N5.html

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This is interesting:

 

Team Vestas Wind media call on Monday

What/when: Team Vestas Wind will be holding a one-hour media conference call via the Webex system (details below) on Monday, December 8, 2014, at 1130 local time in Abu Dhabi/0730 UTC/0830 CET.

Background: Team Vestas Wind’s boat was grounded last Saturday (November 29) on a reef in the Indian Ocean during Leg 2 of the Volvo Ocean Race 2014-15. The crew subsequently were led to safety and are now in Abu Dhabi following a debriefing this weekend.

Attendees:

Morten Albæk, CEO, Team Vestas Wind, and Vestas Chief Marketing Officer
Knut Frostad, CEO, Volvo Ocean Race
Chris Nicholson, Team Vestas Wind skipper
Wouter Verbraak, Team Vestas Wind navigator
Moderator: Morten Kamp Jørgensen, Director of Communications and PR, Team Vestas Wind,
How: We invite media to submit their questions about the incident detailed above (‘Background') in writing to Morten Kamp Jørgensen at mokjo@vestas.com in advance in this call so he can put them to the appropriate member(s) of the panel. Please let us know to whom you wish your question(s) to be addressed. We also intend to give time to media to ask oral questions during the call.

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Tried a few hours the mental game, what happened before the crash.

who was responsible for what, what are the night settings of the Nav aids, what is the protocol at watch switches etc etc.

So many variables, can see that something went wrong.

 

But I learned what the shading is around the 200m.
Learned that ECDIS changes navigation a lot.

And that Admirality chart 38 and 2851 (Gulf of Oman area) has a 2 degrees latitude difference.

Lets hope they notice that when they use paper charts :)

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Estar,

Magenta line with marks:
I noticed that limit too but I really had to search for that.

Was not in my memory. While I must have crossed such lines before in my live.

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Kent,

 

that blue line does not scare me enough, not with the 200 m line, but the numbers inside, 20 and 40, and the magenta line made me wonder.

That and the question marks on the next shoal. But we will never know if htat was the scale they used or less.

 

explanation blue line.

 

800px-British_Admiraly_chart_colours.svg

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Wouter certainly does have an impressive racing resume but it doesn't mention any sailing other than in organized races. But my point wasn't really to criticize Wouter because there's been plenty of that already and I understand that there's a chain of events that could potentially lead to almost all of us running into a charted island. No doubt he screwed up big time but who hasn't? Fatigue, change in plans/routing, software, screen size, and probably other issues none of us have even thought of all contributed to Wouters lack of awareness of the island. If you reread my post, i was referring not so much to the captain and navigator, but more to the rest of the crew to raise the possibility that the crew may have only a very few savvy mariners and the rest were racing specialists who didn't have much experience with the more routine habits and tasks involved in overall good seamanship. But if you are right, and everyone aboard these boats knows everyone else's job and practices overall good seamanship, then WHY did none of the other crewmembers take a look at the chart and ask why they were headed for a reef? I think it's because that wasn't considered to be their job and it might even have been considered a faux pas to be "tinkering" with the navigators screens or questioning his routing (after all, as you pointed out, he's got a VERY impressive resume as a navigator!), and despite some of them having many ocean crossings under their belt, they had never had to be involved in basic navigation so never bothered to check on the boats intended course, just took it or granted that somebody else had that covered. In the hundreds of posts about this incident, I've seen plenty of fingers pointed at the captain and the navigator, but very few seem to be putting much blame on the rest of the crew. Why is that? After all, according to you they are all accomplished mariners and yet each of them just allowed his boat to run into a charted island! I think they correctly aren't being much blamed because it's well understood that they were doing just what they were good at and were hired to do, making the boat go faster than the other boats in the fleet almost as if they were involved in a dinghy race on steroids, but NOT participating in navigation decisions or regularly checking on their position as good seamanship demands that any watchkeeper do. I realize it's an ultra competitive environment and to have a chance at winning, making the boat go fast ALL the time is super important, but I think that this accident shows that it's not wise to compartmentalize important tasks like basic navigation to the extent this crew must have done. If you disagree, how else do you explain all 9 guys apparently not even being aware of an island right in their path?

+1

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This is interesting:

 

Team Vestas Wind media call on Monday

 

What/when: Team Vestas Wind will be holding a one-hour media conference call via the Webex system (details below) on Monday, December 8, 2014, at 1130 local time in Abu Dhabi/0730 UTC/0830 CET.

 

Background: Team Vestas Wind’s boat was grounded last Saturday (November 29) on a reef in the Indian Ocean during Leg 2 of the Volvo Ocean Race 2014-15. The crew subsequently were led to safety and are now in Abu Dhabi following a debriefing this weekend.

 

Attendees:

 

Morten Albæk, CEO, Team Vestas Wind, and Vestas Chief Marketing Officer

Knut Frostad, CEO, Volvo Ocean Race

Chris Nicholson, Team Vestas Wind skipper

Wouter Verbraak, Team Vestas Wind navigator

Moderator: Morten Kamp Jørgensen, Director of Communications and PR, Team Vestas Wind,

How: We invite media to submit their questions about the incident detailed above (‘Background') in writing to Morten Kamp Jørgensen at mokjo@vestas.com in advance in this call so he can put them to the appropriate member(s) of the panel. Please let us know to whom you wish your question(s) to be addressed. We also intend to give time to media to ask oral questions during the call.

As sailors this could be very enlightening or not at all.

 

If there is a room full of non sailing journalists it'll cover all the drama but may not get down to the brand of electronic charts, what exact scale the plotter was at when they hit, whether Wouter was off watch/asleep and, if he was, how the nav duties are attended to when Wouter sleeps.

 

There is certainly an issue to be worked through with skipper verses navigator's responsibilities; especially when it was Nicco who came on deck with the " shoals at 40m depth ahead" comment. Did Wouter tell Nicco that or did Nicco check the plotter himself?

 

Enquiring minds want to know.

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This is interesting:

 

Team Vestas Wind media call on Monday

 

What/when: Team Vestas Wind will be holding a one-hour media conference call via the Webex system (details below) on Monday, December 8, 2014, at 1130 local time in Abu Dhabi/0730 UTC/0830 CET.

 

Background: Team Vestas Winds boat was grounded last Saturday (November 29) on a reef in the Indian Ocean during Leg 2 of the Volvo Ocean Race 2014-15. The crew subsequently were led to safety and are now in Abu Dhabi following a debriefing this weekend.

 

Attendees:

 

Morten Albæk, CEO, Team Vestas Wind, and Vestas Chief Marketing Officer

Knut Frostad, CEO, Volvo Ocean Race

Chris Nicholson, Team Vestas Wind skipper

Wouter Verbraak, Team Vestas Wind navigator

Moderator: Morten Kamp Jørgensen, Director of Communications and PR, Team Vestas Wind,

How: We invite media to submit their questions about the incident detailed above (Background') in writing to Morten Kamp Jørgensen at mokjo@vestas.com in advance in this call so he can put them to the appropriate member(s) of the panel. Please let us know to whom you wish your question(s) to be addressed. We also intend to give time to media to ask oral questions during the call.

Will this exclude your upcoming private interview with Nico?

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Wouter certainly does have an impressive racing resume but it doesn't mention any sailing other than in organized races. But my point wasn't really to criticize Wouter because there's been plenty of that already and I understand that there's a chain of events that could potentially lead to almost all of us running into a charted island. No doubt he screwed up big time but who hasn't? Fatigue, change in plans/routing, software, screen size, and probably other issues none of us have even thought of all contributed to Wouters lack of awareness of the island. If you reread my post, i was referring not so much to the captain and navigator, but more to the rest of the crew to raise the possibility that the crew may have only a very few savvy mariners and the rest were racing specialists who didn't have much experience with the more routine habits and tasks involved in overall good seamanship. But if you are right, and everyone aboard these boats knows everyone else's job and practices overall good seamanship, then WHY did none of the other crewmembers take a look at the chart and ask why they were headed for a reef? I think it's because that wasn't considered to be their job and it might even have been considered a faux pas to be "tinkering" with the navigators screens or questioning his routing (after all, as you pointed out, he's got a VERY impressive resume as a navigator!), and despite some of them having many ocean crossings under their belt, they had never had to be involved in basic navigation so never bothered to check on the boats intended course, just took it or granted that somebody else had that covered. In the hundreds of posts about this incident, I've seen plenty of fingers pointed at the captain and the navigator, but very few seem to be putting much blame on the rest of the crew. Why is that? After all, according to you they are all accomplished mariners and yet each of them just allowed his boat to run into a charted island! I think they correctly aren't being much blamed because it's well understood that they were doing just what they were good at and were hired to do, making the boat go faster than the other boats in the fleet almost as if they were involved in a dinghy race on steroids, but NOT participating in navigation decisions or regularly checking on their position as good seamanship demands that any watchkeeper do. I realize it's an ultra competitive environment and to have a chance at winning, making the boat go fast ALL the time is super important, but I think that this accident shows that it's not wise to compartmentalize important tasks like basic navigation to the extent this crew must have done. If you disagree, how else do you explain all 9 guys apparently not even being aware of an island right in their path?

+1

 

 

Take a look at the Sydney to Hobart race or any other big boat distance race outside or the Volvo. None of those 60 footers hit the line with 9 guys to race balls out 24/7 for days on end. You bet any of them can do any job on the boat. During most of the race each of the 9 struggle to do their own job and non sailing task assignments there is only so much time and physical energy in the day. Here is the junior lightweight on the boat...

 

Team Vestas Wind

Trimmer, data processing & food (Under 30)

 

Peter Wibroe

 

He speaks: Danish and English.

 

Who he is: Pete has a solid background in match racing. He was a crew member of the SAP Extreme 40 and has competed in the Melges 32 and RC 44. And he has a PhD in pharmaceutical sciences with a master’s degree in nanotechnology. Pete’s bachelor of nanotechnology thesis topic was: “Exploring encapsulation efficiency in single vehicles by passive transport across bilayers around phase transition.”

 

http://www.sailing.org/biog.php?id=DENPW1

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Not arguing the "number of crew" argument but it sure puts the IMOCA boys into perspective especially with the likes of Gabart winning with such eerie precision and flawlessness

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Not arguing the "number of crew" argument but it sure puts the IMOCA boys into perspective especially with the likes of Gabart winning with such eerie precision and flawlessness

Wasn't that facilitated by shore-based routing? (at least in the Route de Rhum)

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Not arguing the "number of crew" argument but it sure puts the IMOCA boys into perspective especially with the likes of Gabart winning with such eerie precision and flawlessness

Wasn't that facilitated by shore-based routing? (at least in the Route de Rhum)

Good point. But I don't think in the Vendee.

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"Around the world without assistance

Around the world via the three capes

The course for the Vendée Globe illustrates the straightforward nature and simplicity of the idea behind this major event. You sail around the world from west to east via the three major capes of Good Hope, Leeuwin and the Horn."

 

But...

Different animals because,

A. Crewed boats of similar size but different power, sailed more intensly and intensively, AFAIK, not having done either. When it is breezy then you are on deck during your watch without much shelter, one helm, one main trimmer, one kite trimmer, one grinder = 4.

B. Solo guys have those plush dugouts (nappy?) where they sit in their canting padded chairs monitoring the weather, routing, and traffic whilst the AP steers, popping up for trimming as needed. Generally out of visual contact with the fleet.

C. Route for VOR has been contorted for sponsors, creating much trickier navigation and seamanship challenges (viz the trip to and from China in the winter, what fun) at the same time cutting crew numbers and increasing workloads.

Hmm, something had to give.

All 4 on deck in vid are astonished and unnerved by the appearance of shoals in what they thought was open water, they have no idea which way to turn. At 20 kn even rolling up the zero took time, by the time they struck it was over already, sure maybe they shoulda woulda coulda made a blind bat turn in the dark into potentially worse danger but I doubt I would have. If I fault their reactions for anything it is that they didn't slow down but they are paid to take risks.

 

Even though there seems to be an over abundance of mental masturbation about a relatively simple, easy to explain incident (sorry I was tired and distracted and did not see it until we hit it, my bad) I am still learning from this thread, have to try navionics.

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^ Still, gybing in the middle of the night, deep in the South, with 40+ and mountains, all alone.

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"Around the world without assistance

Around the world via the three capes

The course for the Vendée Globe illustrates the straightforward nature and simplicity of the idea behind this major event. You sail around the world from west to east via the three major capes of Good Hope, Leeuwin and the Horn."

 

But...

Different animals because,

A. Crewed boats of similar size but different power, sailed more intensly and intensively, AFAIK, not having done either. When it is breezy then you are on deck during your watch without much shelter, one helm, one main trimmer, one kite trimmer, one grinder = 4.

B. Solo guys have those plush dugouts (nappy?) where they sit in their canting padded chairs monitoring the weather, routing, and traffic whilst the AP steers, popping up for trimming as needed. Generally out of visual contact with the fleet.

C. Route for VOR has been contorted for sponsors, creating much trickier navigation and seamanship challenges (viz the trip to and from China in the winter, what fun) at the same time cutting crew numbers and increasing workloads.

Hmm, something had to give.

All 4 on deck in vid are astonished and unnerved by the appearance of shoals in what they thought was open water, they have no idea which way to turn. At 20 kn even rolling up the zero took time, by the time they struck it was over already, sure maybe they shoulda woulda coulda made a blind bat turn in the dark into potentially worse danger but I doubt I would have. If I fault their reactions for anything it is that they didn't slow down but they are paid to take risks.

 

Even though there seems to be an over abundance of mental masturbation about a relatively simple, easy to explain incident (sorry I was tired and distracted and did not see it until we hit it, my bad) I am still learning from this thread, have to try navionics.

 

No one should be without the Navionics app on their cell phone. Why? Is it because it is the best navigational technology available? Hardly. It is because it is almost free and it is a complete backup to whatever else you use. You can be in your bunk off watch on someone else's boat and just verify in your hand that all is well. And, it goes in the dinghy with you where ever you go. You don't have to go down below or to the helm to check your position or the chart. It is right there with you. There is plenty about it that I would fix, but it shows you where you are and where you are going very well. There is even a little red line that extends forward so that you can see exactly where you are going.

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Wouter certainly does have an impressive racing resume but it doesn't mention any sailing other than in organized races. But my point wasn't really to criticize Wouter because there's been plenty of that already and I understand that there's a chain of events that could potentially lead to almost all of us running into a charted island. No doubt he screwed up big time but who hasn't? Fatigue, change in plans/routing, software, screen size, and probably other issues none of us have even thought of all contributed to Wouters lack of awareness of the island. If you reread my post, i was referring not so much to the captain and navigator, but more to the rest of the crew to raise the possibility that the crew may have only a very few savvy mariners and the rest were racing specialists who didn't have much experience with the more routine habits and tasks involved in overall good seamanship. But if you are right, and everyone aboard these boats knows everyone else's job and practices overall good seamanship, then WHY did none of the other crewmembers take a look at the chart and ask why they were headed for a reef? I think it's because that wasn't considered to be their job and it might even have been considered a faux pas to be "tinkering" with the navigators screens or questioning his routing (after all, as you pointed out, he's got a VERY impressive resume as a navigator!), and despite some of them having many ocean crossings under their belt, they had never had to be involved in basic navigation so never bothered to check on the boats intended course, just took it or granted that somebody else had that covered. In the hundreds of posts about this incident, I've seen plenty of fingers pointed at the captain and the navigator, but very few seem to be putting much blame on the rest of the crew. Why is that? After all, according to you they are all accomplished mariners and yet each of them just allowed his boat to run into a charted island! I think they correctly aren't being much blamed because it's well understood that they were doing just what they were good at and were hired to do, making the boat go faster than the other boats in the fleet almost as if they were involved in a dinghy race on steroids, but NOT participating in navigation decisions or regularly checking on their position as good seamanship demands that any watchkeeper do. I realize it's an ultra competitive environment and to have a chance at winning, making the boat go fast ALL the time is super important, but I think that this accident shows that it's not wise to compartmentalize important tasks like basic navigation to the extent this crew must have done. If you disagree, how else do you explain all 9 guys apparently not even being aware of an island right in their path?

+1

 

 

Take a look at the Sydney to Hobart race or any other big boat distance race outside or the Volvo. None of those 60 footers hit the line with 9 guys to race balls out 24/7 for days on end. You bet any of them can do any job on the boat. During most of the race each of the 9 struggle to do their own job and non sailing task assignments there is only so much time and physical energy in the day. Here is the junior lightweight on the boat...

 

Team Vestas Wind

Trimmer, data processing & food (Under 30)

 

Peter Wibroe

 

He speaks: Danish and English.

 

Who he is: Pete has a solid background in match racing. He was a crew member of the SAP Extreme 40 and has competed in the Melges 32 and RC 44. And he has a PhD in pharmaceutical sciences with a master’s degree in nanotechnology. Pete’s bachelor of nanotechnology thesis topic was: “Exploring encapsulation efficiency in single vehicles by passive transport across bilayers around phase transition.”

 

http://www.sailing.org/biog.php?id=DENPW1

Once again, a very impressive resume and clearly a very intelligent and accomplished guy, but it doesn't even mention any qualifications as a mariner other than as a match racer. Nothing wrong with that at all, but I think it supports my initial suggestion that many of the crew were more racing specialists than all around seamen. Rather than being generalists who are proficient at all the sorts of things that most people who cross oceans are, many of the crew are specialists whose role has always been to make a boat go fast and possibly that's part of the reason why nobody else aboard happened to take a look at the chartplotter and notice they were heading for an island.

 

In a previous life I was an F-16 pilot. In those days almost everyone who got to fly a F-16 was a least in the top 10% of his initial pilot training class and then you competed constantly against all of your peers to try to be the best. As a F-16 pilot you were required to maintain proficiency at air to ground, close air support, air to air, and interceptor missions against all sorts of adversaries, and stay up to date with ever evolving tactics and weapons, and of course things were always happening/changing at a rather fast pace on every single training mission. It was very challenging and rewarding and fun! However, a disproportionate number of F-16's were crashing and killing their pilots while flying a routine instrument approach, something the guy who finished last in his pilot training class could do just fine. A very good pilot who was my best buddy while we were in F-4 training class together was killed a few years later in an F-16 while flying instruments at night in nonchallenging conditions. The F-16 had adequate instruments but not great instruments, it was designed to win dogfights and drop bombs, not fly instrument approaches. Still, one would think that this group of some of the best fighter pilots in the world would be able to reliably fly a routine instrument approach in the fog without killing themselves and crashing the airplane. It turned out that the problem wasn't primarily with the instruments or even the reclined seating position causing vertigo, though both of those factors probably had some effect, but was more that fighter pilots tend to take great pride in making themselves into the best dogfighters or bombers in the squadron, but many considered working at refining their instrument flying skills to be not cool. If there was extra fuel left at the end of a training mission, nobody ever said "I think I'll fly an extra ILS approach just for practice." In other words, we were a community of pilots who were flying one of the most technologically advanced airplanes in the world, had well above average talent, were all passionate about becoming the very best fighter pilots we could be and constantly worked hard at improving ourselves, but had a worse record at flying instrument approaches than almost any other group of pilots, civilian or military.

 

Maybe some sailboat racers suffer from the same sort of mindset where they are more concerned about being the best dogfighter in the squadron than they are about honing such basic seamanship skills as knowing where they are and what lies just ahead. I'm not suggesting it as a way of criticizing them but more as a way of trying to understand how 9 top notch sailors could run their boat into an island.

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JZK, you are to the Team Vestas grounding as Doug Lord is to foiling.

 

Yes, the big problem here is not the skipper and navigator skirting responsibility for putting their multi-million dollar boat on the rocks and putting the crew in danger. It is me calling BS on their statements about it.

 

Dude, give it a rest. We get it. They fucked up. They admit they fucked up. It seems no one is trying to say otherwise. You are parsing words now and beating deceased equines. I think when they do the formal investigation, they will get at ALL the contributory factors out. I don't think anyone is shying away from the "human error" angle and trying to place blame on technology. You calling BS is irrelevant. Public statements outside of the formal investigation process are also irrelevant, as they are often based on incomplete information - i.e. one guy's perspective or emotion. Once they do the reconstruction of the event second by second, and put all perspectives of the crew together to build a single model of what happened - then and only then will the full picture be built. Until then your take is just as much speculation as anyone else's. So kindly STFU.

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Can someone in the know confirm that a new build is happening!?

 

No comment.............. ;)

I hope not, why should they get the advantage of a new boat??

 

What happens to the next team that need a new one? Or any of the spares being used to set up the new hull?

 

Putting them on a ship between legs was a step, giving a team a new frikken boat is beyond a joke.

 

I can't say that I agree with that. Why is it a joke? At the end of the day, the VOR is a commercial enterprise out to make money and promote their product. If they can pitch the extreme adversity and a rise from the ashes comeback story and it becomes a global sensation (which it could very well become) - then they will have succeeded far beyond their wildest dreams of exposure to a new audience.

 

I think putting the TVW crew right back in the saddle will accomplish that. Feel good story of the century. In several months when the VOR is over, they can show the pics of absolute anquish in Nico's eyes as he's standing in knee deep water at the back of a crashed boat with no stern next to pics of Nico and crew triumphantly sailing into port at the final finish line. Win for the VOR, win for the Vestas Wind company and win for sailing. I don't see a downside.

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In a previous life I was an F-16 pilot. In those days almost everyone who got to fly a F-16 was a least in the top 10% of his initial pilot training class and then you competed constantly against all of your peers to try to be the best. As a F-16 pilot you were required to maintain proficiency at air to ground, close air support, air to air, and interceptor missions against all sorts of adversaries, and stay up to date with ever evolving tactics and weapons, and of course things were always happening/changing at a rather fast pace on every single training mission. It was very challenging and rewarding and fun! However, a disproportionate number of F-16's were crashing and killing their pilots while flying a routine instrument approach, something the guy who finished last in his pilot training class could do just fine. A very good pilot who was my best buddy while we were in F-4 training class together was killed a few years later in an F-16 while flying instruments at night in nonchallenging conditions. The F-16 had adequate instruments but not great instruments, it was designed to win dogfights and drop bombs, not fly instrument approaches. Still, one would think that this group of some of the best fighter pilots in the world would be able to reliably fly a routine instrument approach in the fog without killing themselves and crashing the airplane. It turned out that the problem wasn't primarily with the instruments or even the reclined seating position causing vertigo, though both of those factors probably had some effect, but was more that fighter pilots tend to take great pride in making themselves into the best dogfighters or bombers in the squadron, but many considered working at refining their instrument flying skills to be not cool. If there was extra fuel left at the end of a training mission, nobody ever said "I think I'll fly an extra ILS approach just for practice." In other words, we were a community of pilots who were flying one of the most technologically advanced airplanes in the world, had well above average talent, were all passionate about becoming the very best fighter pilots we could be and constantly worked hard at improving ourselves, but had a worse record at flying instrument approaches than almost any other group of pilots, civilian or military.

 

Maybe some sailboat racers suffer from the same sort of mindset where they are more concerned about being the best dogfighter in the squadron than they are about honing such basic seamanship skills as knowing where they are and what lies just ahead. I'm not suggesting it as a way of criticizing them but more as a way of trying to understand how 9 top notch sailors could run their boat into an island.

 

GREAT POINT! What years did you fly vipers? By the time I got to my ops Sq (early 90s), much of that mindset had been beaten out of us and we always flew more instrument approaches and overheads if we had extra gas. Also, my first tour was in the UK - so instrument approaches down to no shit mins was more the norm for us. So by default we got pretty good at it as opposed to the guys at Luke or Nellis or such where there was rarely a cloud in the sky.

 

But I think you make an excellent point about what tasks top pros tend to focus on more than other tasks. Would be interesting if there was some of that going on here.

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In a previous life I was an F-16 pilot. In those days almost everyone who got to fly a F-16 was a least in the top 10% of his initial pilot training class and then you competed constantly against all of your peers to try to be the best. As a F-16 pilot you were required to maintain proficiency at air to ground, close air support, air to air, and interceptor missions against all sorts of adversaries, and stay up to date with ever evolving tactics and weapons, and of course things were always happening/changing at a rather fast pace on every single training mission. It was very challenging and rewarding and fun! However, a disproportionate number of F-16's were crashing and killing their pilots while flying a routine instrument approach, something the guy who finished last in his pilot training class could do just fine. A very good pilot who was my best buddy while we were in F-4 training class together was killed a few years later in an F-16 while flying instruments at night in nonchallenging conditions. The F-16 had adequate instruments but not great instruments, it was designed to win dogfights and drop bombs, not fly instrument approaches. Still, one would think that this group of some of the best fighter pilots in the world would be able to reliably fly a routine instrument approach in the fog without killing themselves and crashing the airplane. It turned out that the problem wasn't primarily with the instruments or even the reclined seating position causing vertigo, though both of those factors probably had some effect, but was more that fighter pilots tend to take great pride in making themselves into the best dogfighters or bombers in the squadron, but many considered working at refining their instrument flying skills to be not cool. If there was extra fuel left at the end of a training mission, nobody ever said "I think I'll fly an extra ILS approach just for practice." In other words, we were a community of pilots who were flying one of the most technologically advanced airplanes in the world, had well above average talent, were all passionate about becoming the very best fighter pilots we could be and constantly worked hard at improving ourselves, but had a worse record at flying instrument approaches than almost any other group of pilots, civilian or military.

 

Maybe some sailboat racers suffer from the same sort of mindset where they are more concerned about being the best dogfighter in the squadron than they are about honing such basic seamanship skills as knowing where they are and what lies just ahead. I'm not suggesting it as a way of criticizing them but more as a way of trying to understand how 9 top notch sailors could run their boat into an island.

GREAT POINT! What years did you fly vipers? By the time I got to my ops Sq (early 90s), much of that mindset had been beaten out of us and we always flew more instrument approaches and overheads if we had extra gas. Also, my first tour was in the UK - so instrument approaches down to no shit mins was more the norm for us. So by default we got pretty good at it as opposed to the guys at Luke or Nellis or such where there was rarely a cloud in the sky.

 

But I think you make an excellent point about what tasks top pros tend to focus on more than other tasks. Would be interesting if there was some of that going on here.

I think it's an interesting point too. Maybe this new type of offshore OD racing requires a more rigorous selection and training process than the one that is currently being implemented. All new stuff and a great deal of learning going on.

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Can someone in the know confirm that a new build is happening!?

 

No comment.............. ;)

I hope not, why should they get the advantage of a new boat??

 

What happens to the next team that need a new one? Or any of the spares being used to set up the new hull?

 

Putting them on a ship between legs was a step, giving a team a new frikken boat is beyond a joke.

 

Not to argue your point, but they will get a DNF/DNC for at least 2 maybe 3 legs plus the in-port races. They saved the sails and running rigging so that will not be replaced. The likelihood of them winning the overall is zero. They might get a leg or in-port win, but….

 

We will know in the morning after the press conference.

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Not to argue your point, but they will get a DNF/DNC for at least 2 maybe 3 legs plus the in-port races. They saved the sails and running rigging so that will not be replaced. The likelihood of them winning the overall is zero. They might get a leg or in-port win, but….

 

We will know in the morning after the press conference.

.

 

 

. .....R.O.I.

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re-posting from the resurrection thread as not sure where this is relevant.

 

just listened to the Vestas media confcall. I missed the first 10 minutes. My notes:

 

- boat is out. Not repairable

- Vestas & VOR working hard on a solution, i.e. a new boat. But this a great challenge and not an easy task. It might not be possible. Expecting to announce next steps before start of leg 3

- VOR owns the damaged boat. Vestas was leasing it.

- When Vestas was asked about their financial hit due to the accident, its CMO stated that there is no financial hit at all. Their budget is not going to increase due to it.

- Following the above, I guess that the final decision to build a new boat is going to fall on Knut's shoulders, and his ability to convince both Volvo companies to underwrite some millions. He has done this already, so we'll see.

- Vestas very disappointed to be in this situation but very proud on the way the team handled the situation.

- Nico expressed his gratitude about the support from all stakeholders.

- VOR will make public all findings and recommendations going forward.

- I did not hear Wouter speak, but maybe he did so in the 10 minutes I missed.

 

cheers

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re-posting from the resurrection thread as not sure where this is relevant.

 

just listened to the Vestas media confcall. I missed the first 10 minutes. My notes:

 

- boat is out. Not repairable

- Vestas & VOR working hard on a solution, i.e. a new boat. But this a great challenge and not an easy task. It might not be possible. Expecting to announce next steps before start of leg 3

- VOR owns the damaged boat. Vestas was leasing it.

- When Vestas was asked about their financial hit due to the accident, its CMO stated that there is no financial hit at all. Their budget is not going to increase due to it.

- Following the above, I guess that the final decision to build a new boat is going to fall on Knut's shoulders, and his ability to convince both Volvo companies to underwrite some millions. He has done this already, so we'll see.

- Vestas very disappointed to be in this situation but very proud on the way the team handled the situation.

- Nico expressed his gratitude about the support from all stakeholders.

- VOR will make public all findings and recommendations going forward.

- I did not hear Wouter speak, but maybe he did so in the 10 minutes I missed.

 

cheers

Great, thanks for update….

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in the Chart image #61551

...is that a light ???...@ the southern tip of the "Shoal"...I can't tell ...interesting if there is/was...

Yes, it is...

 

Bottom line is, VESTAS ran up on a reef within a mile or two of within one of the very few lighhouses in the Indian Ocean between Mauritius and the entrance to the Persian Gulf...

 

Of course, there's a high probability it might have been inoperative, or burning dim... Hell, it may very well no longer even exist...

 

However, that light, and Cocos Island, show up on British Admiralty chart 4072 - Indian Ocean Western Part - which at a glance shows THE ENTIRE ROUTE OF LEG 2, at a glance:

 

british-admiralty-nautical-chart-4072-in

 

And yet, neither feature is indicated on C-Map zoomed in to a much larger scale:

 

 

C-Map_Cargados_Carajos_Shoal_zpsef681f9d

 

Unfathomable, to me...

 

Obviously, the notion of referring to a paper chart in today's world, aboard a VOR 65, sounds ludicrous to many here... But I'd bet anything, that had even the simplest act of plotting their Noon-to-Noon runs on BA 4072, would have likely prevented this grounding... Wouter would have had to have been blind, or catatonic with fatigue, not to have noticed a freakin' ISLAND with a damn LIGHTHOUSE on it, directly in their path, within an inch or two of their position at noon that day on that single sheet of paper...

 

Of course, a similar thing can be accomplished electronically, no doubt... Has far more to do with the establishment of a procedure, a routine, than the tools that are being used... But there's still a hell of a lot to be said for the Old School way maintaining a record of fixes on a regular interval, might have helped Wouter get his head out of the game or weather routing and tactics, and back to the ability to better see the forest for the trees in terms of the safe navigation of the yacht...

Well said!

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Racing here in San Francisco, Si's sometimes have restricted areas which you cannot unwind from - if you make a navigation error and sail into them, your race is over. Isn't this similar to what the Vestas folks did? If you've been racing long enough, you've made a mistake which took you out of a regatta. That's sailboat racing. In real life mistakes have consequences - stupid does hurt. It really doesn't matter if you have a stellar resume or you're the worlds best sailor - if you put your boat up on the reef, there are consequences. That's what 'accepting responsibility' means. Fielding another boat and continuing racing seems like some weird sense of bravado. When going through a loss, we all have similar throws of emotion - denial, bargaining, anger, depression, and finally acceptance. I can see allot of this going on here. This should be the end for Vestas for this race. They just haven't accepted it yet. The team can have their redemption next time around.

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Can someone in the know confirm that a new build is happening!?

Material ordered. Starting Monday 15th at one of the yards. Planning phase now.

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re-posting from the resurrection thread as not sure where this is relevant.

 

just listened to the Vestas media confcall. I missed the first 10 minutes. My notes:

 

- boat is out. Not repairable

- Vestas & VOR working hard on a solution, i.e. a new boat. But this a great challenge and not an easy task. It might not be possible. Expecting to announce next steps before start of leg 3

- VOR owns the damaged boat. Vestas was leasing it.

- When Vestas was asked about their financial hit due to the accident, its CMO stated that there is no financial hit at all. Their budget is not going to increase due to it.

- Following the above, I guess that the final decision to build a new boat is going to fall on Knut's shoulders, and his ability to convince both Volvo companies to underwrite some millions. He has done this already, so we'll see.

- Vestas very disappointed to be in this situation but very proud on the way the team handled the situation.

- Nico expressed his gratitude about the support from all stakeholders.

- VOR will make public all findings and recommendations going forward.

- I did not hear Wouter speak, but maybe he did so in the 10 minutes I missed.

 

cheers

Great, thanks for update….

 

Clean has posted a full recording here:

http://www.mixcloud.com/sailinganarchy/8-december-2014-vestas-wind-shipwreck-vestas-skipper-nicholson-navigator-verbraak-and-vor-staff/?utm_source=widget&utm_medium=web&utm_campaign=base_links&utm_term=resource_link

 

I did not missed much. Nico & Wouter admitted that their mistake was not too zoom on the charts. Vestas CMO confirmed that should they sail again, they will do it with Nico as skipper. No comment about Wouter's future, though.

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Think that's a joke - unless there really is a 'secretly built second generation VOR65 (the VOR65 2.0)' with 'significantly more power than the old VOR65's' (google translated)

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read Nico's transcript and go watch the video clip again. The wheels spinning hard lock to hard lock, that is the rudders breaking.

 

it is a shame it is at night if they really did spin 180 degrees at that speed it is hard to tell from the video and sail trims, though the main does backwind quite a bit so they definitely turn quite a ways.

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Think that's a joke - unless there really is a 'secretly built second generation VOR65 (the VOR65 2.0)' with 'significantly more power than the old VOR65's' (google translated)

The article in Dutch says:

Zojuist is bekend gemaakt dat Team Vestas de Volvo Ocean Race zal uitvaren. Daarvoor krijgen ze de eerste, in het geheim gebouwde tweede generatie VOR65 (de VOR65 2.0) tot hun beschikking.

Omdat deze boot aanzienlijk meer power heeft dan de oude VOR65's, waar de rest van de vloot mee vaart, moet Vestas starten waar het gebleven was en de verloren tijd goedmaken zonder dispensatie.

 

Translated with my two cents of thought:

It was recently announced Team Vestas will sail the VOR 2013/14. Fore that they get the first, (secretly built) VOR 65. This version 2.0 model wil be even stronger and powerfull then the "old" VOR 65's.

Therefore they have to start where they parked their first VOR 65 to finish the race.

 

Guess they will be last in Abu Dhabi. But for the rest of the race this might grow very interesting.

See what happens. Innovation goes on and on and on. As an engineer I like that.

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Wouter's original comments about getting laptop(s) up and running and reviewing the data is also in this interview... I can't help feeling that he thinks that process may reveal something fresh and or important??????.......might be more than just map scaling/zooming human error??

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It was just announced on the facebook page of Klaas Wiersma, Vesta gets a second boat from the VOR organisation and can continue their campaign.

https://www.facebook.com/klaas.wiersma.581 (in Dutch)

attachicon.gifVestas Mapfre Ador and SCA in close battle.jpg

Perhaps old news to some of you.

This is all I got from the link

 

 

Sorry, this Profile is currently unavailable.

Sorry, this profile is not available at the moment. Please try again shortly.

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Racing here in San Francisco, Si's sometimes have restricted areas which you cannot unwind from - if you make a navigation error and sail into them, your race is over. Isn't this similar to what the Vestas folks did? If you've been racing long enough, you've made a mistake which took you out of a regatta. That's sailboat racing. In real life mistakes have consequences - stupid does hurt. It really doesn't matter if you have a stellar resume or you're the worlds best sailor - if you put your boat up on the reef, there are consequences. That's what 'accepting responsibility' means. Fielding another boat and continuing racing seems like some weird sense of bravado. When going through a loss, we all have similar throws of emotion - denial, bargaining, anger, depression, and finally acceptance. I can see allot of this going on here. This should be the end for Vestas for this race. They just haven't accepted it yet. The team can have their redemption next time around.

 

 

That might be true for the Star Worlds or your own private regatta somewhere. Volvo is now big business with many non sailor lawyer and finance types at the table. A message to the next big budget executive that the Volvo operators will employ paper rules that stop the business marketing efforts from going forward could harm the approval of future sponsorship and other business commitments. All the sailors are getting paid. While some may whine and cry with protests. The reality is boardroom money drives the show and the highly paid help and vendors all want the show to go on bigger and better. Once we allowed TV and sponsorship into sailing we gave up a lot.

 

Look at NASCAR... No matter what you do to the Viagra or Tide car one weekend... Tide and Viagra will be on the track before the next weekend championship eligible. From a business and sponsorship prospective Team Vestas Wind should be able to race the next leg even if that means building a new boat or buying a weaker competitors boat. If man on man pure skill is your nirvana head to the Star Worlds or Laser Class. Volvo is $business$ now.

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Wouter's original comments about getting laptop(s) up and running and reviewing the data is also in this interview... I can't help feeling that he thinks that process may reveal something fresh and or important??????.......might be more than just map scaling/zooming human error??

 

 

not likely.., and anyway it would be hard for it to be worse than what we already know

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Racing here in San Francisco, Si's sometimes have restricted areas which you cannot unwind from - if you make a navigation error and sail into them, your race is over. Isn't this similar to what the Vestas folks did? If you've been racing long enough, you've made a mistake which took you out of a regatta. That's sailboat racing. In real life mistakes have consequences - stupid does hurt. It really doesn't matter if you have a stellar resume or you're the worlds best sailor - if you put your boat up on the reef, there are consequences. That's what 'accepting responsibility' means. Fielding another boat and continuing racing seems like some weird sense of bravado. When going through a loss, we all have similar throws of emotion - denial, bargaining, anger, depression, and finally acceptance. I can see allot of this going on here. This should be the end for Vestas for this race. They just haven't accepted it yet. The team can have their redemption next time around.

 

That might be true for the Star Worlds or your own private regatta somewhere. Volvo is now big business with many non sailor lawyer and finance types at the table. A message to the next big budget executive that the Volvo operators will employ paper rules that stop the business marketing efforts from going forward could harm the approval of future sponsorship and other business commitments. All the sailors are getting paid. While some may whine and cry with protests. The reality is boardroom money drives the show and the highly paid help and vendors all want the show to go on bigger and better. Once we allowed TV and sponsorship into sailing we gave up a lot.

 

Look at NASCAR... No matter what you do to the Viagra or Tide car one weekend... Tide and Viagra will be on the track before the next weekend championship eligible. From a business and sponsorship prospective Team Vestas Wind should be able to race the next leg even if that means building a new boat or buying a weaker competitors boat. If man on man pure skill is your nirvana head to the Star Worlds or Laser Class. Volvo is $business$ now.

except that every nascar team has at least 2 cars if not many more. Heck the bigger teams may bring more than one car that is slightly optimized for different conditions. Choosing which car to race depending on local conditions.

 

There are only 6.5 vo65'S right now.

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No one should be without the Navionics app on their cell phone. You can be in your bunk off watch on someone else's boat and just verify in your hand that all is well. And, it goes in the dinghy with you where ever you go. You don't have to go down below or to the helm to check your position or the chart. It is right there with you. There is even a little red line that extends forward so that you can see exactly where you are going.

 

I think we're all sick to death of hearing about your fucking cell phone. There's always one prick on the boat who won't stop playing with his iphone till the battery gives out or it gets thrown overboard.

 

I heard that there are 3 types of sailor - those who have gone aground, those who have never left the dock, and fucking liars.

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So given what we know - my take now:


1. The team admits they simply did not ever zoom in on the chart. That's a simple human error given all the signals on the chart that it should be zoomed in on (both shoal area and the purple territorial limit lines cry out for further investigation). It is also a management process error (lack of double checking of a very fundamental process crying out for checking)


2. This area was originally excluded (we are still not 100% certain about that but I am guessing it was so, with a non-public exclusion zone). It was opened up the day before the start, and 'should have been' examined in detail then. But everyone was busy with specific pre-start activities and it was not done. It seems that there was the idea that it would happen after the start, but again everyone was busy and it did not get done. This was a management (priority/follow-up) failure.

The team has not specifically mentioned fatigue as a root cause of either of the above errors. So, we don't (yet) know how important that factor was.


3. Correct use of the depth sounder (min depth alarm) and/or radar (guard zone) could have avoided this incident, even given the above two errors, but they were (apparently) not used. That is a process error.

4. The charting zoom is a problem. It appeared as a systematic problem, to other boats in the fleet, and not just on this boat. It should be 'fixed'. The Nav and Skipper 'should have' been well familiar with the problem and had process to deal with it, because it is a well known and documented issue. But the charting industry needs to get its act together and address this. The charting should help, not hinder, safe operation. It will be slow and painful, but Volvo, Vestas and the incident team could leave a lasting mark on the sport if they got the industry to fess up and start working on the problem.


5. When the crew saw the breaking water there was no reaction. They had little time, and they thought they knew there were no dangers, and it unfortunately timed at the bottom of the sleep cycle. But there 'should be' a trained reaction/process (which did not happen) when the deck spots an unexpected hazard. Someone should at least immediately check the plotter at high zoom, the AIS and the radar. I am not sure with these boats when in the process the helmsman should react, but given their speeds, it would have to be pretty early on. I know they would hate to lose ground and it will be one of those racing vs. safety trade-off, but there should at least be a very clear bright line when(and how) the helm reacts to such events.


6. The (aft) watertight bulkhead most likely saved lives. The keel design was structurally 'strong enough' and it was excellent that the bulb broke first. Generally the boat builders and designers deserve praise.


7. It is not clear that pfd's or tethers would have been any benefit if the boat had sunk, but it may reflect a lack of 'safety culture' that the crew did not (appear to have) have gear on. I know racers (and in fact most of us with a bunch of offshore miles) tend to not wear this stuff on 'nice tropical nights', but this is a pro work environment. Yes, this is a race, and racing priorities sometimes conflict with safety priorities (as in the 'how close is safe' decisions) but in most of the factors of this incident they did not conflict except in that the safety side simply did not seem to get sufficient attention.

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Seems to me if they had turned and tried to go upwind they would have grounded out the keel and boards and ended up sinking in deeper water. In that sense it was better to run full tilt up on the reef after the first bang.

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No one should be without the Navionics app on their cell phone. You can be in your bunk off watch on someone else's boat and just verify in your hand that all is well. And, it goes in the dinghy with you where ever you go. You don't have to go down below or to the helm to check your position or the chart. It is right there with you. There is even a little red line that extends forward so that you can see exactly where you are going.

 

I think we're all sick to death of hearing about your fucking cell phone. There's always one prick on the boat who won't stop playing with his iphone till the battery gives out or it gets thrown overboard.

 

I heard that there are 3 types of sailor - those who have gone aground, those who have never left the dock, and fucking liars.

You want to hear more about my cell phone? Thanks for asking. It is a Sony Ultra Z with a 6.4" screen. And, it is completely waterproof making it ideal for navigation use.

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Seems to me if they had turned and tried to go upwind they would have grounded out the keel and boards and ended up sinking in deeper water. In that sense it was better to run full tilt up on the reef after the first bang.

 

Maybe, but who would make that kind of decision? Best to try everything possible to keep from hitting the island. Turning the boat 180 in some manner as quickly as possible is the safest thing to do.

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Seems to me if they had turned and tried to go upwind they would have grounded out the keel and boards and ended up sinking in deeper water. In that sense it was better to run full tilt up on the reef after the first bang.

Maybe, but who would make that kind of decision? Best to try everything possible to keep from hitting the island. Turning the boat 180 in some manner as quickly as possible is the safest thing to do.

read the transcript interview The boat did a 180 after it hit the reef.

 

Secondly you can't crash tack or gybe a VO 65 with the on watch crew. Or have you been completely ignorant to the workings of the boats? If a sail change is needed the off watch is required to wake up to assist. This isn't a 30' boat on a fresh water lake.

Oh and your phone is rated to get wet. If it is dunked repeatedly it will die.

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Think that's a joke - unless there really is a 'secretly built second generation VOR65 (the VOR65 2.0)' with 'significantly more power than the old VOR65's' (google translated)

The article in Dutch says:

Zojuist is bekend gemaakt dat Team Vestas de Volvo Ocean Race zal uitvaren. Daarvoor krijgen ze de eerste, in het geheim gebouwde tweede generatie VOR65 (de VOR65 2.0) tot hun beschikking.

Omdat deze boot aanzienlijk meer power heeft dan de oude VOR65's, waar de rest van de vloot mee vaart, moet Vestas starten waar het gebleven was en de verloren tijd goedmaken zonder dispensatie.

 

Translated with my two cents of thought:

It was recently announced Team Vestas will sail the VOR 2013/14. Fore that they get the first, (secretly built) VOR 65. This version 2.0 model wil be even stronger and powerfull then the "old" VOR 65's.

Therefore they have to start where they parked their first VOR 65 to finish the race.

 

Guess they will be last in Abu Dhabi. But for the rest of the race this might grow very interesting.

See what happens. Innovation goes on and on and on. As an engineer I like that.

That post you refer to is 100% fake.

Check your sources properly next time.

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Seems to me if they had turned and tried to go upwind they would have grounded out the keel and boards and ended up sinking in deeper water. In that sense it was better to run full tilt up on the reef after the first bang.

Maybe, but who would make that kind of decision? Best to try everything possible to keep from hitting the island. Turning the boat 180 in some manner as quickly as possible is the safest thing to do.

read the transcript interview The boat did a 180 after it hit the reef.

 

Secondly you can't crash tack or gybe a VO 65 with the on watch crew. Or have you been completely ignorant to the workings of the boats? If a sail change is needed the off watch is required to wake up to assist. This isn't a 30' boat on a fresh water lake.

Oh and your phone is rated to get wet. If it is dunked repeatedly it will die.

 

My phone is rated to be under 1.m of fresh water for 30m. But I don't need it to do that. I just need it to be a backup to the other systems I have with me.

 

I said turn the boat 180 "as quickly as possible." I didn't say that should have called for a sail change. Can you read English? And, yes, it is probably best to turn the boat 180 BEFORE they crash into the island.

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