Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

PaulinVictoria

Team Vestas grounded

Recommended Posts

 

 

 

 

meat and 6 - I really appreciate your posts - but, routing in advance? - different wind conditions could easily have had them sail in completely different waters - how do you allow for that?

Well sailboat racing is essentially about probabilities and percentages. So you lay out rhumb, shortest distance between two points usually. Research Pilot Charts for most likely wind direction(s). Then add notable current features that have an affect on set and drift. Last thing is weather because that is the most changeable aspect.

That said, early on you run through your mind some if-then stuff. Where a dome of high is likely to develop or sit. Where a low will come from and head to based on steering winds. Not so much black art, you craft a plan with contingencies. End of the day a plan is everything.... then sticking to it means very little as you react to situational changes and developments. All the homework gives you the background necessary to make decent choices.

 

 

Just to add to that - when racing the rhumb line is obviously the fastest route if weather conditions allow. So you are plotting for that and then overlaying weather conditions to see where you might deviate from the rhumb line.

 

The power of tools like Expedition is that you can load gribs and run scenarios to see what route you might take other than the rhumb line. In the past couple of years that has expanded to allow for doing what is called "ensemble routing" where you down load a set of gribs from NOAA that compiled by NOAA to reflect a different set of potential inputs / outcomes in their forecasting models. When you run ensemble routing on those models, you end up with a dozen plus different potential routes. You run this for day after day as you approach the start. When you are way out (e.g. 10 days) each model will suggest a different route and the routes may diverge with a wide degree of variance but what you will typically find is that some meaningful subset of routes will be roughly the same. Those suggest the highest probability conditions and route. As you get closer to the start, you will typically see most of the models converging to a consensus for the conditions and thus the route.

 

So when routing, you

  • Check the rhumb line route at the closest level of detail to see what navigational issues (land, reefs, shoals, lights, buoys, currents, etc.) might exist
  • Check the high probability routes at the closest level of detail to see what navigational issues might exist
  • Check everything else on either side of the rhumb line even if improbable based on routing, so you have a familiarity with the terrain in case you end up deviating from the rhumb in unexpected ways.
Or at least that is what I do. And since it takes the overlay of chart, weather and routing to be able to step through all those different scenarios that is why I start with the electronic charts and then step out to the paper charts as a sanity check.

 

 

See again I do all this either on paper or in my head during lead up to start. Watching weather mostly to see how fast things are moving to get a feel. I work out what I think is my final on paper within 24 hours of start. I then will run Expedition to see what that says. If that is close I am please that my mind has grasped the situation. I also look to see the exact differences and why they exist.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

if you crash recklessly or delibratly somebody elses car - that somebody might even get fully paid by the insurer. I say might because it depends on clauses within the contract. The insurer would then try to take recourse with the driver...

 

That is the reason why i think we will never know what happened excactly. The boarder between negligence and gross negligence is not so clear - the navigator and captain will probably only talk after they had some legal advise....

Oh yeah... and the rest of the extroverts onboard will never visit a bar or get lonely on the rail. No chance what happened will stay a secret. Will they man up and show up here to type it out? A very slim maybe... but, not unheard of.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not a sailor, and have no idea what it takes to sail one of these boats in the open ocean, but a team full of professionals sailed their boat at top speed into a charted island/reef. A complete fuck up if there ever was one. A fuck up that falls solely and squarely on the Skipper of the boat, IMO. A Skipper that is very experienced in this specific race.

 

WetHog :ph34r:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Would say that we have the whole story. Kind of incredible that we can all, in a few clicks, see the entire incident, as it happens, at home.

 

Mistakes were made. whether by cause, or omission, not really important.

 

That island, and reef have been around for a long time, and were known to be an obstruction on the race course.

 

The take away here is that a moments pause from your efforts can end the journey in a hurry. Whether sailing, driving, flying, or crossing the traffic lane on foot.

 

...and now they are six.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

thanks guys- - very interesting - I've never sailed offshore so, obviously, never raced offshore. Navigating the Chesapeake with a chart plotter and Nav-X was fun and interesting but the only challenge was avoiding the bottom which, of course I did not manage to do. Your preparation sounds like getting ready to race around the cans but, with a multitude of additional factors.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Do Lloyds of London or someone insure racing yachts like this? I sailed twice from CA to Hawaii and remember the insurance part was a hassle but, I was able to get it. Hopefully the sponsor will stay involved in yacht racing...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

@ those who set the threshold for second guessing a Volvo Race team at being able to drive a car- without knowing your credentials, I will just disagree. I know I can navigate with a compass and a watch. But there is a quantum difference between "get there" routing and "get there as quickly as possible while chasing best winds" routing- hence my hesitancy to second guess the team.

 

Question remains- does the Explorer or C-chart software support proximity alerts?

 

There are others who have stopped by this forum who know Expedition better than I do, but I am not aware of any proximity alarms in Expedition. The AIS and radar functions have "point of closest approach" logic, but nothing that resembles an alarm.

Sounds like a needed mod to the nav software. This feature in Garmin has saved me more than once. Yes I know "they should know"...

 

Anyone who has pushed themselves to the point of collapse -- 36-48 hours without sleep or a grueling schedule with limited rest --knows that one of the first things to fail is attention to detail and fine logic. That is why certain functions are repeatedly drilled, to "hard coded" them into the brain. Having the safety net of alerts for hazards pre-programmed by the crew that annunicates a unique alarm would make this type of F-up harder.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

.... A fuck up that falls solely and squarely on the Skipper of the boat, IMO. A Skipper that is very experienced in this specific race.

 

WetHog :ph34r:

Correct. And I'm sure even if it was someone else's designated responsibility at that moment, Nico will wear it and not throw anyone under the bus.

 

Human error. It's everywhere.

 

Even the most vigilant can have a momentary lapse. 99.9% of the time it passes by without penalty and/or unnoticed.

 

Not in this case.

 

That said, glad everyone is ok.

 

Otherwise this is a shitty, shitty outcome and not good for the race. I was expecting Vestas to get on pace and add some top finishes to the mix.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Realistically I wonder what are the chances of salvaging that boat. I expect if the starboard side is badly damaged and it continues to pound itself on the reef it's probably a total loss.

 

And then there were six. ;-(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Depends on how much damage was sustained in the first night and if they were able to prepare the boat during the day. There are two RIBs. In the morning videos the sea state was flat with little wind, no idea how the local weather developed. It is very hard to tell but it looks like they are high and dry for the most part. Taking all the moveable stuff off reduces pounding, further holes will be confined to the already damaged area. Also use daylight to take a close look at the lead bulb and how it is wedged into place.

 

It's night again, as per one of the videos a small freighter that supplies the islands is scheduled to arrive tomorrow. Then the big question is if they can tow the boat form the reef in one piece. If so they can stash it in the anchorage for a while where the situation won't get worse. Then pick it up and get it repaired (or not).

 

If all of that bears any resemblance to reality it would make a good story. We'll see once more information is available.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

from dongfeng's OBR,

 

November 30, 2014 Yann Riou OBR, Dongfeng Race Team
Go to team website

“Beautiful islands in the middle of nowhere, but right in the middle of our route!” (Charles)

That was the reflection of Charles Caudrelier just after passing the Cargados archipelago. Shortly after we gybed, a bit later than our closest rivals, right at the time of the big wind shift, but without anticipating that this shift would be so strong that it would take us onto a direct route to the island.

A little moment of hesitation during which we asked which side we should pass.

“A small navigation error which cost us two to three miles.” It could have been worse.

Charles had noticed this archipelago a few days ago. But it’s worth noting that it’s actually pretty hard to find. In fact, to see it on our electronic charts, you have to zoom right in on top of it. But how and why would you zoom into it if you don’t know it’s there in the first place?

So whilst we don’t know exactly what happened on Vestas, we can imagine how it happened. In any case it’s been a big shock for us to hear the news. It’s still hard to believe it happened.

At least no-one was hurt. But for sure it’s a very bad news. For Vestas and the race.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Will be interesting to see if the Vestas OBR posts anything of value, even if it's just about the state of the boat or the processes of evacuation. Memories of Movistar footage coming back....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Given that there has been no (public) information after Alvimedica has left this may take a while.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not a sailor, and have no idea what it takes to sail one of these boats in the open ocean, but a team full of professionals sailed their boat at top speed into a charted island/reef. A complete fuck up if there ever was one. A fuck up that falls solely and squarely on the Skipper of the boat, IMO. A Skipper that is very experienced in this specific race.

 

WetHog :ph34r:

 

Maybe you should just STFU and stick to sailing around the Bay with 12yr olds pretending to be a pirate, or better yet playing with your extensive troll collection.

 

Wait until the team releases information and the facts are known.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you have a look at their (Vestas) track, you can see that for the last 46nm they were headed straight for the reef.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When we see how close to the coral heads Dongfeng passed on the west coast, we can imagine that such a one-design regatta will lead the most seaworthy skipper to take some kind of incredible risks. I can easily imagine Team Vestas following a good windshift toward the roaring reef, waiting for the very last moment to tack... But unfortunately, there was a big (unchartered) head just a ,maybe, 100m from the reef. Nobody on earth except a furious racing VOR with a long, long, keel fin would have a chance to meet that rock and nobody met her before of course... With such a draft, any commercial vessel will pass well away of a coral island like this!

It's not a problem of charts, it's a problem of race. We are astonished to see such a professional crew grounded on the smallest island on their path to the Emirates, but what happened is quite common, for example, on the figaro circuit where few keels have not been introduced to Brittany rocks... Rocks that are well known from many centuries...

These sailors were surely aware of the proximity of the reef, following the depth decreasing, beginning to tack... Boom and crack... Too late...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A brief historical-literary note, and Book Tip for Team Vestas.

 

This particular bar is mentioned, and strategically used, as a tactical barrier and anchorage in The Mauritius Command.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mauritius_Command

 

It also served this function in the actual battles on which the novel was based and is recounted in detail in several history works.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauritius_campaign_of_1809%E2%80%9311

 

 

I have raced at night enough to know this massive FUBAR by Vestas is some combination of "I forgot to check" and "I was stupid tired".

 

No way to make the situation any better, but, it is very very very rare and hard to get to the Ile de Sud

 

Perhaps they can take the time to download the literary and historical works while they are waiting and enjoy a rare visit to remarkable place with a storied nautical history.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Realistically I wonder what are the chances of salvaging that boat. I expect if the starboard side is badly damaged and it continues to pound itself on the reef it's probably a total loss.

 

And then there were six. ;-(

 

It wouldn't surprise me if every local within 50nm will strip Vestas clean of everything of value in the next 24-36 hours. VOR/Vestas will need to come up with some kind of a salvage plan for the carcass, as I doubt they wants to leave carbon bits all over on top of the damage they have done to the reef.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When we see how close to the coral heads Dongfeng passed on the west coast, we can imagine that such a one-design regatta will lead the most seaworthy skipper to take some kind of incredible risks. I can easily imagine Team Vestas following a good windshift toward the roaring reef, waiting for the very last moment to tack... But unfortunately, there was a big (unchartered) head just a ,maybe, 100m from the reef. Nobody on earth except a furious racing VOR with a long, long, keel fin would have a chance to meet that rock and nobody met her before of course... With such a draft, any commercial vessel will pass well away of a coral island like this!

It's not a problem of charts, it's a problem of race. We are astonished to see such a professional crew grounded on the smallest island on their path to the Emirates, but what happened is quite common, for example, on the figaro circuit where few keels have not been introduced to Brittany rocks... Rocks that are well known from many centuries...

These sailors were surely aware of the proximity of the reef, following the depth decreasing, beginning to tack... Boom and crack... Too late...

Interesting. But Dongfeng referred to it as a tactical error, not trying to cut it as close as possible. Not sure Vestas had any intention of tacking, banging the corners like they had done.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the facts speak for themselves. They drove the boat onto a charted reef. Either the plotter wasn't reading correctly which is unlikely or, it was a pretty inexcusable navigation error. They ought to have known of the possibility of shoals in the area and had someone monitoring the plotter. For fuck sake this wasn't a holiday charter boat. It's a professional race team. I reckon Knut is doing his nut over this. It can only get worse if the boat is a write off. That said, my heart goes out to the team. An embarrassing public fuck up of epic proportions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

 

Realistically I wonder what are the chances of salvaging that boat. I expect if the starboard side is badly damaged and it continues to pound itself on the reef it's probably a total loss.

 

And then there were six. ;-(

It wouldn't surprise me if every local within 50nm will strip Vestas clean of everything of value in the next 24-36 hours. VOR/Vestas will need to come up with some kind of a salvage plan for the carcass, as I doubt they wants to leave carbon bits all over on top of the damage they have done to the reef.

The whole team is being evacuated. No consideration for someone or a few to stay behind on the island with the boat at least until other representatives arrive on the scene?

 

Edit: Never mind. Shore crew already there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Realistically I wonder what are the chances of salvaging that boat. I expect if the starboard side is badly damaged and it continues to pound itself on the reef it's probably a total loss.

And then there were six. ;-(

It wouldn't surprise me if every local within 50nm will strip Vestas clean of everything of value in the next 24-36 hours. VOR/Vestas will need to come up with some kind of a salvage plan for the carcass, as I doubt they wants to leave carbon bits all over on top of the damage they have done to the reef.

That's a fairly damning statement about the local population! How many people even live there and in what capacity?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

An interview with Team Vestas Wind skipper

 

Hey Chris, Mark Covell here calling from Race Control.

Hey Mark, how are ya?

 

Yeah good, and how are you?

(laughs) Mate, Im ah, Im sitting here on a, on a, I guess a ship-wrecked island, its beautiful, and Im here in the dark because the generator got turned off an hour ago.

 

Ive been making lots of calls on the satphone through the most beautiful night I think Ive ever seen - and last night was one of the worst nights Ive ever seen.

 

I can imagine. How are the crew holding up?

Unbelievably good. You know, we just had a really nice simple meal here on the island, fantastic. I just said to the guys just how many times in your life and your sporting career could you have such a major incident like we did, but yet not have, you know, media and friends and family and everything there. Were essentially shipwrecked.

 

We had dinner and everyones spoken pretty openly and honestly about what happened, and how we dealt with the situation. About as solid a debrief as you could probably ever have.

 

So theres a sense of real relief and feeling lucky amongst the crew. So Chris can you tell me in your opinion, what is the condition of the boat?

Its extensively damaged. It took a massive, massive pounding. I was amazed with what was getting thrown at it and somehow it managed to keep us all in one piece. I was absolutely amazed at what happened.

 

It certainly kept you safe last night. So looking at the big picture, what are your major concerns right now?

My major concerns are obviously for the well-being of my crew, and also everyone who may actually have felt for them last night as well. Some of my first phone calls after colliding with the reef, once I let Race Control know, were asking (Team Vestas Wind Shore Manager) Neil Cox to get the families informed so that they knew what was going on.

 

During the course of things we lost all electrical supply, we lost satphone coverage, and the old snowball thing was happening. I can only imagine what was happening with the families.

 

So thats my immediate concern and also that we need to recover this vessel as much as we possibly can.

 

What have you managed to salvage already, and do you have plans to revisit the boat and salvage more water, food, equipment etc?

Yep, absolutely. The whole crew, we spent as long a time as we could retrieving today. Retrieving diesel, oil, hydraulics from the boat - and weve got another full day planned tomorrow. The damage is massive in the boat.

 

Its just amazing that I literally cant, I dont have the means to be able to send the photos that we have, its not possible from where I am and thats what I said to the guys, I said we are literally shipwrecked and its an unique experience going through it.

 

To describe that island youre on, just look around and paint a picture for us.

Im looking out over the lagoon here, you can see the breaking waves on the reef which I saw all too close last night and I couldnt begin to think of a bigger contrast to last night. Its an absolutely stunning lagoon and bird colony thats on these islands, and its just unheard of - so we are going to do our best and clean up.

 

Taking you back to last night again, can you just talk us through the evacuation what was it like making the decision to get off the boat, getting the life rafts off and then evacuating the boat?

When you talk about the tough decisions you have to make in life, I have to say that was number one for me, and its one of those ones where, okay, we hit the rocks and we had massive damage.

 

The immediate concern was just for people to be able to hang onto the boat and buy time until the situation got better.

 

But by that, the situations not getting better, basically the boat has to destroy itself to end up more on the rocks and out of the breaking waves. I cant begin to describe how hard it was literally just to hang on.

 

Also they dont have time to go through how we wanted to evacuate if we needed to.. It was never, ever my intention to get off the boat in the dark. I just did not want to do it and that was the intention right from the start - but unfortunately when we hit the reef it was just dark so we had to spend 7-8 hours trying to hang on till daylight and we probably would have run, I dunno, 15 or 20 drills how we were going to do it.

 

We practised it throughout the night, always with the intention of never needing to do it, and had to make the call one and a half or two hours before daylight, when we got off.

 

What were you most concerned about - you talk about rocks and reef and deep water and shallow water and waves but what was going through your mind, what was the ordeal when you made that call?

Well, we knew there was shallow water on the other side of the reef in the lagoon side. The problem was that for most of the night we were just on the deep water side where the keel was jammed in the rocks on the deep water side and the boat was being beaten by those complete point break waves. We had to just hang on through that with the boat breaking up around us, and still we kind of literally found and landed our way just onto the reef. So even then we still couldnt get off, not safely.

 

And then towards daylight, like two hours just before daylight, the bulb broke off and the boat leaned over heavily. While that was happening we probably lost the back of the boat, it was gone, missing, and the deck started to fold and the boat was heeling over more so I made the decision that we were getting off.

 

Wed already practised deploying the jonbuoy off the back to see where it would drift to, its drift rate and we already deployed one life raft which was across the reef if we could get to it. Wed been practising throughout the night how we were going to do it. We made the call and got on with the job.

 

Sounds like you executed it perfectly. We are speaking to you on an Inmarsat iSat phone right now and Im concerned we are using up valuable charge to organise all your logistics. Do you have the ability to charge it with a solar panel?

Yes we do - thats been going on today. The only thing is I need to get a longer lead next time because to use it, I had to lie down on the sand. Its been a lifesaver. We quickly sustained so much damage with flooding last night that we lost all electrical supply, we lost onboard phones, so we had to get the Inmarsat phone out of the grab bag.

 

You think youre well trained on these things but its different in the heat of the moment. It sort of paves the way in regards to being able to keep informed the people who need to be informed and giving both me and the crew reassurances there were more people out there than just us dealing with the situation.

 

And on that subject you have thousands and thousands of fans out here wishing you well - and Im sure that they would want me to give you that message. Do you have a message for your fans out there and your loved ones?

Im obviously upset with what happened and um I dunno. I said today to the guys

 

Take your time

(long pause) I said today we always believed that were a strong team and we made mistakes which led to last night, but I have been simply blown away by the way the guys dealt with the situation and also the attitude to try and make things as right as possible today.

 

Yes, I can see that you've made a massive effort to try to sort the impact on the environment. And I know that Volvo will work with you and your team to sort that out in the best way possible. And on that, your evacuation off the island, what's your plan at the moment?

We're going to be working obviously all tomorrow removing all ropes and as much wiring and everything as possible from the boat. And that will lead the way with whatever final decision needs to be made in regards to what we do with the boat.

 

So that well all do tomorrow, and then I think on Tuesday morning, we make a 20-hour boat trip back to Mauritius where Ill catch up with Neil Cox. Coxy is already there, I spoke to him just before you Mark and hes under way, talking with salvage crews, and got to make these decisions as to what can and cannot be done with the boat.

 

So obviously we've got all the videos and photos but cant get them to the rest of the world at the moment. I'll take them back with me and they can assess it, but unfortunately I'm pretty sure of the outcome.

 

But you know, if there is anyone who can do it I believe its the people that we have in this programme. I cant think the story has ended here, it's a pretty unique group of people when you consider what happened last night and I guess the crisis plan that both ourselves and Volvo had in place got as good an outcome as we possibly could have in this situation.

 

We hope that Brian has been doing his best, he's a fantastic Onboard Reporter and I'm sure he's been documenting his side of things. How much footage does he still have the capacity to film?

It's hard in a way, because there is such a story to be told of whats happening here today and tomorrow and literally he lost a lot of camera equipment last night.

 

We don't have the ability to go back through his footage from last night, but I think I looked over his shoulder at some of the stuff that he was doing and it will be mind-blowing.

 

And so, we're kind of on a budget with what we can do today and tomorrow. It was amazing to watch how people stood up for themselves.T

 

Before you go, is there anything you need to ask of us?

No, I'm personally just very grateful for all the help and support that everyone has shown.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The bulb broke off. The whole stern too. The deck started to collapse while they hung on for dear life through the night. They're very lucky to all be alive and unharmed. What a tragedy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bravo Team Vestas. Busting their arses to clean up the diesel and hydro oil to minimise the impact on the environment. Nice job.

 

Sounds like the end for that boat. The sea has claimed her.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

from dongfeng's OBR,

 

November 30, 2014 Yann Riou OBR, Dongfeng Race Team

Go to team website

“Beautiful islands in the middle of nowhere, but right in the middle of our route!” (Charles)

That was the reflection of Charles Caudrelier just after passing the Cargados archipelago. Shortly after we gybed, a bit later than our closest rivals, right at the time of the big wind shift, but without anticipating that this shift would be so strong that it would take us onto a direct route to the island.

A little moment of hesitation during which we asked which side we should pass.

“A small navigation error which cost us two to three miles.” It could have been worse.

Charles had noticed this archipelago a few days ago. But it’s worth noting that it’s actually pretty hard to find. In fact, to see it on our electronic charts, you have to zoom right in on top of it. But how and why would you zoom into it if you don’t know it’s there in the first place?

So whilst we don’t know exactly what happened on Vestas, we can imagine how it happened. In any case it’s been a big shock for us to hear the news. It’s still hard to believe it happened.

At least no-one was hurt. But for sure it’s a very bad news. For Vestas and the race.

 

Wow, that's a rather astonishing statement, no?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow, that's a rather astonishing statement, no?

 

Yeah pretty unbelievable put apparently the truth. I guess, sponsor or not, some software should get kicked off the boats for the remainder of the race. Problem is that that it could very well affect all vendors...

Maybe ISAF should make up some rules in this totally unchartered area rather than wire vs. dyneema.

 

In other news: No need to buy paper charts, I've checked my school atlas. St. Brandon is indeed clearly marked on the Africa page...

 

 

If anything I hope that this incident is (yet another) incentive for the software companies to finally fix this problem.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Wow, that's a rather astonishing statement, no?

 

Yeah pretty unbelievable put apparently the truth. I guess, sponsor or not, some software should get kicked off the boats for the remainder of the race. Problem is that that it could very well affect all vendors...

Maybe ISAF should make up some rules in this totally unchartered area rather than wire vs. dyneema.

 

In other news: No need to buy paper charts, I've checked my school atlas. St. Brandon is indeed clearly marked on the Africa page...

 

 

If anything I hope that this incident is (yet another) incentive for the software companies to finally fix this problem.

 

 

Software companies to finally fix this problem? How about a good old fashioned waypoint on the plotter and actually giving a danger area some clearance, especially at night?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I get the feeling that the material that gets published will be a story of shipwreck, survival and social responsibility in cleaning up. That's what will sell.

 

It will be interesting to see if the crew ever afford us an analysis of the events leading up to grounding. I doubt we will get much, although as sailors, this could be the most useful information to us.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Aside from all the finger pointing, is the boat totaled? All the official reports rightly focus on the crew but I haven't seen too much more on the boat. It's obviously going to be a PITA to salvage, but is there any chance they can repair?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Aside from all the finger pointing, is the boat totaled? All the official reports rightly focus on the crew but I haven't seen too much more on the boat. It's obviously going to be a PITA to salvage, but is there any chance they can repair?

Seeing as the interview mentioned they were even yanking the wiring out of the boat, I'm guessing she's a total loss.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Realistically I wonder what are the chances of salvaging that boat. I expect if the starboard side is badly damaged and it continues to pound itself on the reef it's probably a total loss.

And then there were six. ;-(

It wouldn't surprise me if every local within 50nm will strip Vestas clean of everything of value in the next 24-36 hours. VOR/Vestas will need to come up with some kind of a salvage plan for the carcass, as I doubt they wants to leave carbon bits all over on top of the damage they have done to the reef.

That's a fairly damning statement about the local population! How many people even live there and in what capacity?

 

They are most likely poor and subsist by fishing. Doubt they get many cruise ships visiting they can sell cheap shit from china to. In *most* cases, locals descend as soon as they can. Even fucknuts in the "western" world.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Aside from all the finger pointing, is the boat totaled? All the official reports rightly focus on the crew but I haven't seen too much more on the boat. It's obviously going to be a PITA to salvage, but is there any chance they can repair?

^ gruesome transcription of the interview above. Lost.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

Wow, that's a rather astonishing statement, no?

 

Yeah pretty unbelievable put apparently the truth. I guess, sponsor or not, some software should get kicked off the boats for the remainder of the race. Problem is that that it could very well affect all vendors...

Maybe ISAF should make up some rules in this totally unchartered area rather than wire vs. dyneema.

 

In other news: No need to buy paper charts, I've checked my school atlas. St. Brandon is indeed clearly marked on the Africa page...

 

 

If anything I hope that this incident is (yet another) incentive for the software companies to finally fix this problem.

 

 

Software companies to finally fix this problem? How about a good old fashioned waypoint on the plotter and actually giving a danger area some clearance, especially at night?

I get the feeling that the material that gets published will be a story of shipwreck, survival and social responsibility in cleaning up. That's what will sell.

 

It will be interesting to see if the crew ever afford us an analysis of the events leading up to grounding. I doubt we will get much, although as sailors, this could be the most useful information to us.

Agree with both. It's a shame that reasonable change only comes sometimes after terrific loss.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

from dongfeng's OBR,

 

November 30, 2014 Yann Riou OBR, Dongfeng Race Team

Go to team website

“Beautiful islands in the middle of nowhere, but right in the middle of our route!” (Charles)

That was the reflection of Charles Caudrelier just after passing the Cargados archipelago. Shortly after we gybed, a bit later than our closest rivals, right at the time of the big wind shift, but without anticipating that this shift would be so strong that it would take us onto a direct route to the island.

A little moment of hesitation during which we asked which side we should pass.

“A small navigation error which cost us two to three miles.” It could have been worse.

Charles had noticed this archipelago a few days ago. But it’s worth noting that it’s actually pretty hard to find. In fact, to see it on our electronic charts, you have to zoom right in on top of it. But how and why would you zoom into it if you don’t know it’s there in the first place?

So whilst we don’t know exactly what happened on Vestas, we can imagine how it happened. In any case it’s been a big shock for us to hear the news. It’s still hard to believe it happened.

At least no-one was hurt. But for sure it’s a very bad news. For Vestas and the race.

 

Wow, that's a rather astonishing statement, no?

 

The boats spend a lot of time racing within eyesight of each other in a pack. The navigators examine and react to any change in a competitor's course or speed.

 

When the leading pack neared the reef they all reacted at the same time. Maybe there are navigators subconsciously getting used to this mindset?

 

I'd be willing to bet there could have been a navigator amongst them who hadn't zoomed in to see the reef but knew of it's existence because of the fleet's reaction.

 

Team Vestas was by itself and any lack of vigilance was obviously punished.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's a question for actual OR navigators around here...

 

I remember very clearly an interview with Capey when he was with Puma about his role as navigator. This is his exact quote from that interview:

 

"Well it's not like finding a continent, really. It's not like that at all. I don't even worry about where we are. But my job primarily in an ocean race is to look at weather...look at the meteorology involved..."

 

In the Vestas video above, Wouter was talking about the same thing - weather.

 

So, I completely understand this in terms of route navigation (more long range meteorology and routing than short range hard-bit avoidance). But my question is - if this is the role of an OR navigator (which is NOT what most of the guys on this thread are talking about) - who worries about the hard bits on a VOR boat?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

.... A fuck up that falls solely and squarely on the Skipper of the boat, IMO. A Skipper that is very experienced in this specific race.

 

WetHog

Correct. And I'm sure even if it was someone else's designated responsibility at that moment, Nico will wear it and not throw anyone under the bus.

 

Human error. It's everywhere.

 

Agreed. Don't know Nico personally, but everything I've read and seen of him suggests a stand up guy. Sucks he will have such an embarrassing mark on his record, but I expect him to bounce back and be successful in the future.

 

Ultimately, regardless of the how, the fact no one got seriously hurt, or killed, is a miracle and all that matters, IMO. The limited info on the collision suggests a very violent affair. 15-20 mph to a dead stop with a razor sharp reef in darkness? Frightening.

 

WetHog :ph34r:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is this right:

  • DF and V both had a wind shift and altered with it S of the reef putting them on a dangerous course.
  • DF noticed the issue late enough that they did a costly late jibe to avoid.
  • Several teams have mentioned zoom level issues when dealing with multiple layers of data.
  • The C-Map MAX chart that WO had up shows the reef in sufficient detail to navigate around it.
  • Even with just the world charts installed in Expedition the reef is labeled at high zoom levels and the contour is colored at low zoom levels.
  • The teams have access to several different weather models, including ensemble.
  • Model resolution for the EC and GFS is ~12km^2 / 6hr (though most readily available as 0.5 deg grid). Other models are available at higher area and time resolutions.
  • The software may have multiple routings based on the multiple models displayed on top of the weather and chart displays.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

.... A fuck up that falls solely and squarely on the Skipper of the boat, IMO. A Skipper that is very experienced in this specific race.

 

WetHog

Correct. And I'm sure even if it was someone else's designated responsibility at that moment, Nico will wear it and not throw anyone under the bus.

 

Human error. It's everywhere.

 

Agreed. Don't know Nico personally, but everything I've read and seen of him suggests a stand up guy. Sucks he will have such an embarrassing mark on his record, but I expect him to bounce back and be successful in the future.

 

Ultimately, regardless of the how, the fact no one got seriously hurt, or killed, is a miracle and all that matters, IMO. The limited info on the collision suggests a very violent affair. 15-20 mph to a dead stop with a razor sharp reef in darkness? Frightening.

 

WetHog :ph34r:

 

I'm gonna suggest that the helmsman may have seen white water in the last moments and started a luff. If so the grounding may not have been as violent as hitting the reef straight on at 15-20 knots. That may have something to do with a lack of injuries. … a slowing boat and a lot of shouting may have just made the difference to crew's awareness levels.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This zoom out problem has caused a lot of problems for many people, including the deaths of those guys on the Ensenada race a year ago. Ultimately the electronics will have enough memory and processing power to not drop out information when zoomed out. But they don't now. For instance, I'm amazed at the Western NA Navionics charts ability to zoom into specific slips in every marina from Alaska to San Diego just by scrolling, but carrying all that detail at comes at a cost of selectively dropping out more and more info when zoomed out. Maybe tiling the charts, just like NOAA, is the way to go.

 

The easy fix, for now, is to use the tools that are best for their purpose. All the significant off-shore races I've done have had a mandatory paper chart requirement. Just a glance can show trouble spots. Good for route planning and over-all course awareness (and then using the electronics 95%of the time for tracking, local conditions and tactics.) Really nice to sit down in the cockpit with the crew and go over the course and strategy too.

 

But then, I've hit rocks holding a paper chart in my hand, navigating like crazy, taking bearings on landmarks and buoys left and right then finding out too late that buoys were off station or lights out. So nothing is perfect.

 

I wonder, in fact, if that reef was actually in the right place on the charts, electronic or otherwise.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wonder, in fact, if that reef was actually in the right place on the charts, electronic or otherwise.

Close enough so as not to be the issue I think. Estar got a good grab of WO's nav screen showing his plotting and V's AIS position. Both boats were displaying pretty much as you'd expect in relation to the chart. So, it doesn't look like there was a mile and half error in longitude or anything.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting news from volvo: "Skipper Chris Nicholson spoke on Sunday night of his immense pride at the way his Team Vestas Wind crew dealt with the boat’s grounding and abandon on a remote Indian Ocean reef just 12 hours earlier."

 

So no word yet if it was a cock-up by Vestas. They must be holding the story for some reason.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Aside from all the finger pointing, is the boat totaled? All the official reports rightly focus on the crew but I haven't seen too much more on the boat. It's obviously going to be a PITA to salvage, but is there any chance they can repair?

 

Appears its history, lost the stern and rudders, deck lifted, bulb gone, starboard side totaled.

Hitting at 15kts in dark, fark..........!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I wonder, in fact, if that reef was actually in the right place on the charts, electronic or otherwise.

Close enough so as not to be the issue I think. Estar got a good grab of WO's nav screen showing his plotting and V's AIS position. Both boats were displaying pretty much as you'd expect in relation to the chart. So, it doesn't look like there was a mile and half error in longitude or anything.

/\/\/\

 

I DO think there is a problem with perception of scale and information available at different levels of `zoom'. The fact that weather routing can be overlaid is tempting the navigator to stay `zoomed out' to look at a large area all the time.

 

Since the navigator has two conflicting roles i.e. weather routing on a large area and safe pilotage; perhaps there is an argument for having two screens?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting news from volvo: "Skipper Chris Nicholson spoke on Sunday night of his immense pride at the way his Team Vestas Wind crew dealt with the boat’s grounding and abandon on a remote Indian Ocean reef just 12 hours earlier."

 

So no word yet if it was a cock-up by Vestas. They must be holding the story for some reason.

I'd be surprised if they have even pieced it together yet - I'm sure they have more pressing priorities in other areas. All we can say is that something went seriously wrong, any more than that is pure speculation that needs plenty of facts to support it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

C'mon you blokes, it's a thirty mile long island reef chain that was charted by B.A. in the 1860's FFS! It has nothing to do with zoom level or software.

 

That's like running into the back of a school bus and claiming you couldn't see it. If you couldn't see it, you were obviously not looking!

 

If they were zoomed out far enough not to see that reef system then you are suggesting the total abandonment of the most basic navigational principles. I just cannot see Wouter or Nico doing that, these two guys are in high demand for a reason.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This zoom out problem has caused a lot of problems for many people, including the deaths of those guys on the Ensenada race a year ago. Ultimately the electronics will have enough memory and processing power to not drop out information when zoomed out. But they don't now. For instance, I'm amazed at the Western NA Navionics charts ability to zoom into specific slips in every marina from Alaska to San Diego just by scrolling, but carrying all that detail at comes at a cost of selectively dropping out more and more info when zoomed out. Maybe tiling the charts, just like NOAA, is the way to go.

 

The easy fix, for now, is to use the tools that are best for their purpose. All the significant off-shore races I've done have had a mandatory paper chart requirement. Just a glance can show trouble spots. Good for route planning and over-all course awareness (and then using the electronics 95%of the time for tracking, local conditions and tactics.) Really nice to sit down in the cockpit with the crew and go over the course and strategy too.

 

But then, I've hit rocks holding a paper chart in my hand, navigating like crazy, taking bearings on landmarks and buoys left and right then finding out too late that buoys were off station or lights out. So nothing is perfect.

 

I wonder, in fact, if that reef was actually in the right place on the charts, electronic or otherwise.

Roger That, who among us hasn't found that there surprises out in the great blue yonder.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

I wonder, in fact, if that reef was actually in the right place on the charts, electronic or otherwise.

Close enough so as not to be the issue I think. Estar got a good grab of WO's nav screen showing his plotting and V's AIS position. Both boats were displaying pretty much as you'd expect in relation to the chart. So, it doesn't look like there was a mile and half error in longitude or anything.

/\/\/\

 

I DO think there is a problem with perception of scale and information available at different levels of `zoom'. The fact that weather routing can be overlaid is tempting the navigator to stay `zoomed out' to look at a large area all the time.

 

Since the navigator has two conflicting roles i.e. weather routing on a large area and safe pilotage; perhaps there is an argument for having two screens?

Yes. I think you're right. Asymptote was asking if the reef was properly placed on the charts available. It looks like it was. But apparently the way that the software was being used obscured that information.

 

I'm also wondering about the increase in the amount of information that is being overlapped. WX models are becoming denser and particularly with ensemble there are lots of possible routs that can be plotted. So there may be more clutter than the software designers envisioned.

 

I know there's been talk about route alarms helping discover the under-laying dangers. But I suspect the navigators are just marking way points and relaying steering information. That's what I do even with an auto pilot.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Interesting news from volvo: "Skipper Chris Nicholson spoke on Sunday night of his immense pride at the way his Team Vestas Wind crew dealt with the boat’s grounding and abandon on a remote Indian Ocean reef just 12 hours earlier."

 

So no word yet if it was a cock-up by Vestas. They must be holding the story for some reason.

I'd be surprised if they have even pieced it together yet - I'm sure they have more pressing priorities in other areas. All we can say is that something went seriously wrong, any more than that is pure speculation that needs plenty of facts to support it.

 

Absolutely and "pure speculation" is what we do so well here! I enjoy it as long as it doesn't morph into fact in anyone's minds.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In any case, Expedition has (for as long as I can remember) a check box in the routing settings called "Avoid C-Map land". I always un-check it because I want to minimise any external inteference. Just give me the pure routing result and then I will manipulate/interpret that information myself thankyou very much. I suspect I am not alone in that practise.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just for info:

I listened to a radio show last week with a oceanographer of the SHOM, the french navy cartographers. He explained that a lot of the surveys made pre-GPS era were still valid today in terms of data collected, but that they were just badly positionned due to uncertainty in navigation systems back then. So since the apparition of GPS and satellite images, a lot of work has been done in positionning these surveys in the right place. You tend to have less and less badly positionned rocks that effectively existed, but some miles away.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

C'mon you blokes, it's a thirty mile long island reef chain that was charted by B.A. in the 1860's FFS! It has nothing to do with zoom level or software.

 

That's like running into the back of a school bus and claiming you couldn't see it. If you couldn't see it, you were obviously not looking!

 

If they were zoomed out far enough not to see that reef system then you are suggesting the total abandonment of the most basic navigational principles. I just cannot see Wouter or Nico doing that, these two guys are in high demand for a reason.

What do you think happened? Had a plan but that plan got changed due to a shift & they just forgot?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Interesting news from volvo: "Skipper Chris Nicholson spoke on Sunday night of his immense pride at the way his Team Vestas Wind crew dealt with the boat’s grounding and abandon on a remote Indian Ocean reef just 12 hours earlier."

 

So no word yet if it was a cock-up by Vestas. They must be holding the story for some reason.

I'd be surprised if they have even pieced it together yet - I'm sure they have more pressing priorities in other areas. All we can say is that something went seriously wrong, any more than that is pure speculation that needs plenty of facts to support it.

He said they had a long talk about it. They know exactly what happened. Now it is just a matter of coming to terms with it. Tough place to be.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gotta be something like that Scanas, the standing orders got mixed up somehow..... Like "wake me up in an hour to gybe" and the watch captain thought he said two hours or "steer no lower than x and you are fine" and the watch captain thought he said x + 20.

 

Rule number one for ANY navigator, lake river coastal or ocean is KEEP IT OFF THE BRICKS! That is ALWAYS the primary focus. I just can't see these guys breaking that rule, for a professional navigator it's like forgetting to breathe.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Some footage of the lost boat in Alicante apparently filmed by a VIP. It includes instructions taped to the bulkhead for MOB and abandon ship as well as cool footage of the in-port race.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've navigated many ocean races and coastal races.

 

I worry about what can go wrong when I go to sleep - and so I don't sleep as much as I should.

 

I think a lot of navigators don't get enough sleep, and lack of sleep can lead to lack of focus, and bad decisions.

 

at first glance, this seems like a failure to check the route for obstacles after it was selected, but I wonder if lack of sleep was a factor.

 

If the navigator and watch captains work well together, it helps, but It can be hard to bring the watch captains fully up to speed on all the considerations - it takes time, and they want to sleep when they go off watch. Not all watch captains are that aware of tactical and navigational principles.

 

Also, in an ocean race, I think that if the watch captains haven't been meeting regularly with the navigator in say the week before the start, it's going to be tough...

 

Obviously, there is nothing subtle about the need to avoid hitting reefs..., but it's easy for the navigator to find himself in his own little world, and I try really hard to keep the communication going

 

if any crew member is standing there looking at my computer, I usually turn to them and say " do you want to know what's going on?", and I don't wait for their answer - i just launch into a discussion of whatever it is I am thinking about at that time.

 

anyway, presumably at the level of the VOR, they have most of this sorted out, so it will be interesting to see where the breakdown occurred.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gotta be something like that Scanas, the standing orders got mixed up somehow..... Like "wake me up in an hour to gybe" and the watch captain thought he said two hours or "steer no lower than x and you are fine" and the watch captain thought he said x + 20.

 

Rule number one for ANY navigator, lake river coastal or ocean is KEEP IT OFF THE BRICKS! That is ALWAYS the primary focus. I just can't see these guys breaking that rule, for a professional navigator it's like forgetting to breathe.

Thats probably the most likely scenario. Though did someone say they where on that course for 46nm @ 15kn boat speed thats still plenty of time to go over the plan.

 

Anyway, did they build a spare boat? Or is that the end for Team Vestas.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

In any case, Expedition has (for as long as I can remember) a check box in the routing settings called "Avoid C-Map land". I always un-check it because I want to minimise any external inteference. Just give me the pure routing result and then I will manipulate/interpret that information myself thankyou very much. I suspect I am not alone in that practise.

Obviously, if you zoom out far enough, there won't be enough pixels for every hazard, and they'd be too small to see. That doesn't mean there can't be a visual cue. For instance, the color of the 'water' can be different where it actually contains some land or shoals.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

In any case, Expedition has (for as long as I can remember) a check box in the routing settings called "Avoid C-Map land". I always un-check it because I want to minimise any external inteference. Just give me the pure routing result and then I will manipulate/interpret that information myself thankyou very much. I suspect I am not alone in that practise.

Obviously, if you zoom out far enough, there won't be enough pixels for every hazard, and they'd be too small to see. That doesn't mean there can't be a visual cue. For instance, the color of the 'water' can be different where it actually contains some land or shoals.

 

 

I never use "avoid C-map land" , and probably no one should.

 

a better way to avoid something is by drawing a "race note" around it, and telling the routing to avoid the note.

 

recently, a feature was added which will make the optimal route avoid land as defined by a global coastline data file. this probably has the little island but not the reef that they actually hit.

 

to be clear - none of these features are real-time alarms.., they only affect the optimal route

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good video over at Team Abu Dubai's facebook page. https://www.facebook.com/AbuDhabiOceanRacing?fref=nf

 

Ian Walker gives a good assessment and shows the charting and rolls through the zoom levels. Zoomed out (several levels) the reefs/islands disappear but the area is still shaded blue and the soundings are still there so it is clearly shallow and an area of caution.

 

That's exactly my point SemiSalt, there is no way known that you could not know it is an area of caution from the tools they ALL have on board.

 

Walker also reveals that this area was originally an exclusion zone and was only released to the competitors so they could avoid the centre of the storm. That might explain the lack of pre-planning for this area that seems to be apparent for more than one team.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good video over at Team Abu Dubai's facebook page. https://www.facebook.com/AbuDhabiOceanRacing?fref=nf

 

Ian Walker gives a good assessment and shows the charting and rolls through the zoom levels. Zoomed out (several levels) the reefs/islands disappear but the area is still shaded blue and the soundings are still there so it is clearly shallow and an area of caution.

 

That's exactly my point SemiSalt, there is no way known that you could not know it is an area of caution from the tools they ALL have on board.

 

Walker also reveals that this area was originally an exclusion zone and was only released to the competitors so they could avoid the centre of the storm. That might explain the lack of pre-planning for this area that seems to be apparent for more than one team.

So, does it seem they were just trying to cut the island as close as possible as someone suggested previously and not suspecting it was surrounded by a reef?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bravo Team Vestas. Busting their arses to clean up the diesel and hydro oil to minimise the impact on the environment. Nice job.

 

Sounds like the end for that boat. The sea has claimed her.

+1.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

:wacko: :wacko: :wacko:The fact that it was originally an exclusion zone goes some way to explain the lack of passage planning but the island is well charted. The position on Navionics, the South Indian Ocean Pilot and Google Earth all give exactly the same position and it is a 25 mile long reef, not the 'smallest island in the Indian Ocean as someone suggested.

 

Irony of irony, I dip into the virtual race when I get a chance - the last time was a couple of days ago - and I find myself 6,000 places down this morning and parked about 100m along the reef from Vestas, thank goodness just virtually!

 

Shame on me!

 

SS

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Some footage of the lost boat in Alicante apparently filmed by a VIP. It includes instructions taped to the bulkhead for MOB and abandon ship as well as cool footage of the in-port race.

 

.

...yes...8:30 starts some nice footage of the 'good ol'days' of a 7 boat fleet :mellow:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've navigated many ocean races and coastal races.

 

I worry about what can go wrong when I go to sleep - and so I don't sleep as much as I should.

 

I think a lot of navigators don't get enough sleep, and lack of sleep can lead to lack of focus, and bad decisions.

 

at first glance, this seems like a failure to check the route for obstacles after it was selected, but I wonder if lack of sleep was a factor.

 

If the navigator and watch captains work well together, it helps, but It can be hard to bring the watch captains fully up to speed on all the considerations - it takes time, and they want to sleep when they go off watch. Not all watch captains are that aware of tactical and navigational principles.

 

Also, in an ocean race, I think that if the watch captains haven't been meeting regularly with the navigator in say the week before the start, it's going to be tough...

 

Obviously, there is nothing subtle about the need to avoid hitting reefs..., but it's easy for the navigator to find himself in his own little world, and I try really hard to keep the communication going

 

if any crew member is standing there looking at my computer, I usually turn to them and say " do you want to know what's going on?", and I don't wait for their answer - i just launch into a discussion of whatever it is I am thinking about at that time.

 

anyway, presumably at the level of the VOR, they have most of this sorted out, so it will be interesting to see where the breakdown occurred.

Plus on these boats as the crew size is so limited it's a fair bet that the navigators are standing watches, trimming and driving too - probably compounding the issue

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My Dad was a young Naval officer and got assigned to an aircraft carrier early in his career. He was a fleet officer as opposed to a 'brown shoe' which is what the naval aviators were called. Odd thing is that aircraft carriers were assigned 'brown shoes' as captains in the thought that their specialized training as aviators made them more suitable for being in command of a floating airfield.

 

Dad eventually got assigned the role as 'navigator' and the Captain made a big point of re-iterating the huge responsibility that entailed but then pointed at the chart rolled out on the chart table and said, 'I have the ultimate responsibility for this ship and its crew but all I know about navigating is that we are supposed to keep it in the blue parts and away from the tan areas...'

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nicho mentions in his interview the entire crew had a candid debrief. I'm sure they all are well aware of what happened and how. They haven't shared yet, which is also the sensible thing to do. Meet with the management team and debrief them first, before talking out of school with the media.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nicho mentions in his interview the entire crew had a candid debrief. I'm sure they all are well aware of what happened and how. They haven't shared yet, which is also the sensible thing to do. Meet with the management team and debrief them first, before talking out of school with the media.

.

....that term can mean different things to different people....in Aus,doesn't it mean a good piss-up!?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Back when Vestas was launched and going threw the roll over safety demonstration someone, can't remember who, commented on the purpose of sponsorship graphics on the bottom of the boat and joked what would have to happen to the boat to see those words.

 

Well the joke came true, to a point.

 

WetHog

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If Vestas was cruising along at 18 knots, boards up, keel cantered at 40 degrees, some heel on... What would of hit the reef first? Bulb or rudders?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Back when Vestas was launched and going threw the roll over safety demonstration someone, can't remember who, commented on the purpose of sponsorship graphics on the bottom of the boat and joked what would have to happen to the boat to see those words.

 

Well the joke came true, to a point.

 

WetHog

.

 

.....mannn,,,I hope I didn't jinx them :mellow::unsure:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

Anyone who uses decreasing depth as a guide in any coral seas is a total fucktard.

An incredible number of strong opinions and pronouncements!

 

But folks who go offshore (and despite the name calling it strikes me that some of these folks may not actually go offshore?) use a depth sounder (and decreasing depth) all the time.

 

I often set a temporary "safety depth" of something like 100M or even 200M+ depending on planned routing on plotter. Then I confirm that planned routing doesn't intersect safety shading anywhere. That sets up an expectation - I should never see less than 200M on depthsounder. This is especially true in coral areas. You may not even want to go through a place at night or with sun low if it's shallowing up! This has saved me a few times, especially with newer crew, so I keep using it.

 

Navy guy earlier did make a good point about this. Not good for fine tuning position, but used as a box I find depth a good independent check on your (potentially wrong) estimate of where you are.

 

+1 at night on the lakes non racing I think like a Laker 30 feet of water no less for a reference. In some areas deeper if the waters deep inshore. And I check fixes against charted depth when racing or not. Those guys had a bad night nows time to learn from their grounding.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Nicho mentions in his interview the entire crew had a candid debrief. I'm sure they all are well aware of what happened and how. They haven't shared yet, which is also the sensible thing to do. Meet with the management team and debrief them first, before talking out of school with the media.

.

....that term can mean different things to different people....in Aus,doesn't it mean a good piss-up!?

Ahh you know what ya talking about, a few coldies, good as gold.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Nicho mentions in his interview the entire crew had a candid debrief. I'm sure they all are well aware of what happened and how. They haven't shared yet, which is also the sensible thing to do. Meet with the management team and debrief them first, before talking out of school with the media.

.

....that term can mean different things to different people....in Aus,doesn't it mean a good piss-up!?

Ahh you know what ya talking about, a few coldies, good as gold.

.

...sure sounded like that on the interview...or was the slur from hypothermia!? :rolleyes:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

if any crew member is standing there looking at my computer, I usually turn to them and say " do you want to know what's going on?", and I don't wait for their answer - i just launch into a discussion of whatever it is I am thinking about at that time.

Remember reading the interview with Stan Honey about the the Groupama RTW tri. One of the things he talks about is the difference between French and Kiwi boats. With the French, everybody is a navigator, so the designated nav always has someone looking over their shoulder. With the Kiwis, you never disturb the nav. Wonder if Aussie boats are like Kiwis, so the nav doesn't have much of a sounding board/backup checker.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah I don't know about that. You'd have to be a pretty shit team player ( read asshole ) to not sound out ideas when you are all pros & I don't think you'd get a Volvo gig with that attitude. It's not like a superyacht owner hiring a pro helmsman & navigator to join the regular crew for a few races.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I love yachts so the loss of this one makes me very sad, however there's still lots of carbon and paint left in the world to replace it. Thank fuck everybody got out unharmed as they are a lot harder to replace. Every body fucks up, they know more than we all could tell them that they have goosed it royally and will be much harder on themselves.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Long time SA reader, never really in the forums, first time poster. Wow, this thread is depressingly judgemental with some appalling slander.

 

Someone wrote that the boat must have hit really hard to end up where it is (nearly high'n'dry). That's not actually how it works; the waves work it further aground usually and then when the sea state drops off a little everyone wonders how the boat got so far 'inland'.

 

Someone else suggested VOR 'own the boats'. That's not the case as can be heard in an interview with Frostad and Mr Clean. VOR have the first option to determine who they are next campaigned by or sold to.

 

Everyone is speculating about chart quality, but these are professional sailors and navigators. They would not have routed so close intentionally. It will be even more simple. Having done some race navigation with Expedition you can put in waypoints and the software spits out a route with angles to steer. If the waypoint data entry was wrong by a transposed digit, the consequent angle might have brought them too close. The other possibility which I think has been alluded to is slowly getting headed effectively toward the obstacle.

 

Lastly, this could be career ending for Nico so some room to breathe to actually find out what happened might be in order. Although beaching Telefonica Blue (Sanya) and bashing another one to death (Movistar) didn't seem to be terminal for Bekking/Juan K.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites