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PaulinVictoria

Team Vestas grounded

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I know shit - all about salvage but that is still pretty close to the edge of the reef, and what is left is relatively light. There is very little liquid co. And at low tide you can wade to it.

 

Could it be as simple as a barge and crane. Anchor it off the reef wall and back down to the wall. Use the crane get bucket to lift chunks onto the barge. Put a crew on the reef at low tide to collect and consolidate the small stuff.

 

It would need to happen fast, before a storm broke it up or pushed it further into the reef. And some of the work would be limited to low tide. But it benefits from making use of low tech equipment that should be readily available.

My line of business now RM and as US7070 said salvage assets probably do more damage to the environment then good.

 

Approach from the windward side is a nono due to constant swell, leeward looks too shallow for anything to get near enough.

 

A barge + crane would need one heck of a boom. Jack up platform out of the question for same reasons.

 

She might be pinned too much to even contemplate the use of lift bags to float her off the other side and how would you balance the thing, let alone a keel fin flopping about.

 

From a salvage point of view will be an interesting one to follow (if the boys with chain saws don't get there first)

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I very much doubt the boat is worth saving even if it is "fixable" as it will probably have so many repairs it will be the slowest VOR65 who would want it? If you could salvage all the parts/deck gear it could be a cheaper way to a new one for sure. but the hull is chainsaw fodder.

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Hey! Good to see you again Laser1. Long time... interested in another Fast net this coming summer?

 

Thanks for the insight on salvage.

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Hey! Good to see you again Laser1. Long time... interested in another Fast net this coming summer?

 

Thanks for the insight on salvage.

Cheers RM, apart from feeding you on your next fly-by I can come and rescue you as well now :-)

 

Would always be interested in another ride on the mighty Dragon.

 

Apologies for the hijack boys, carry on.

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I know shit - all about salvage but that is still pretty close to the edge of the reef, and what is left is relatively light. There is very little liquid co. And at low tide you can wade to it.

 

Could it be as simple as a barge and crane. Anchor it off the reef wall and back down to the wall. Use the crane get bucket to lift chunks onto the barge. Put a crew on the reef at low tide to collect and consolidate the small stuff.

 

It would need to happen fast, before a storm broke it up or pushed it further into the reef. And some of the work would be limited to low tide. But it benefits from making use of low tech equipment that should be readily available.

My line of business now RM and as US7070 said salvage assets probably do more damage to the environment then good.

 

Approach from the windward side is a nono due to constant swell, leeward looks too shallow for anything to get near enough.

 

A barge + crane would need one heck of a boom. Jack up platform out of the question for same reasons.

 

She might be pinned too much to even contemplate the use of lift bags to float her off the other side and how would you balance the thing, let alone a keel fin flopping about.

 

From a salvage point of view will be an interesting one to follow (if the boys with chain saws don't get there first)

What would the chances of using a heavy lift helicopter be to pick the boat up?

 

The Sikorsky CH-53E has a max external payload of 13,500kg (32,000b) and the boat weighs 12,500kg (27,557lbs) empty. Plus the CH-53E has the range to reach Mauritius and back with the payload.

 

Probably completely insane and way too expensive but would be an interesting option to look into.

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Estar is right…

 

I'll bet the sounds of chainsaws aren't far off.

 

The mast will be the tricky bit.

 

Not really, just cut the 'windward' V1 and D1 at deck level. Just stand well back from it.

Ummmm splintering CF....

The whole boat will be fucking covered in them and has turned into a huge pile of it by now!!!

 

It's just another cutting up job for a fucked up composite structure before it makes a mess in the oceans.

 

I guess you don't work in the boat or composite business, correct?

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From a salvage point of view will be an interesting one to follow (if the boys with chain saws don't get there first)

 

Hmmm.... Let's keep it somewhat intact: Drop the deck stepped rig, pull the keel pin, lever the hull off the keel with large flotation bags. That should reduce weight and thus draft nicely. Float the hull to the leeside using even more flotation bags.

Some said there is up to 1m water over the reef at high tide, should be enough if it's actually the case. Once inside you have more time to find out if whole or in pieces is better.

 

If you can't pull the keel pin safely, half cut and yet more flotation.

 

Either way, worry about fin and bulb later, they won't go anywhere.

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Is that even salvageable? Wouldn't pulling it back over the reef not be the final straw?

 

1512200_10152917912412437_61713690740922

 

It'll buff right out.

 

At least the front hasn't fallen of...

Is the environment off to the left in that picture, or to the right?

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From a salvage point of view will be an interesting one to follow (if the boys with chain saws don't get there first)

Hmmm.... Let's keep it somewhat intact: Drop the deck stepped rig, pull the keel pin, lever the hull off the keel with large flotation bags. That should reduce weight and thus draft nicely. Float the hull to the leeside using even more flotation bags.

Some said there is up to 1m water over the reef at high tide, should be enough if it's actually the case. Once inside you have more time to find out if whole or in pieces is better.

 

If you can't pull the keel pin safely, half cut and yet more flotation.

 

Either way, worry about fin and bulb later, they won't go anywhere.

Excellent, care to quote for the job?

 

Don't get me wrong, it's perfect. Just how much??

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3rd world country. 3rd world salvage.

 

Some local co. will just drag that fucker right off.

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This zoom out problem has caused a lot of problems for many people, including the deaths of those guys on the Ensenada race a year ago..

As an aside, we (the Aegean incident team) concluded that zoom issues were likely NOT a primary contributing factor in the Aegean incident.

 

That crew knew full well where those islands were, and you could see them on their plotter even well zoomed out. Our conclusion was that those guys were simply not paying attention (no situational awareness).

 

My guess in this Volvo case is that there has grown a twofold "culture problem": first with the nav's focused on weather and match racing and not having enough bandwidth to do what many of us consider "proper" nav proceedure. And second high pressure to save a hundred meters here or there and so cutting corners and edges closer than "proper seamanship" suggests (min 2nm to features like this), like low speed chase did. The zoom issues may not be ideal, but IMHO this is primarily a human and not technical failure.

 

Note: I am not speaking from any sort of moral high ground but rather speaking from experience, having made the same sort of human mistakes and earned hard lessons from them.

 

 

This sounds exactly right to me.

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it's a tragedy avoided actually

 

by luck or otherwise

 

It's actually a perfect tragedy, which is a dramatic form based on human suffering. Lots of suffering here from a solid cast of characters; that's why I say it won't be 'wasted'; VOR and hopefully Vestas will use it to tell a great story and grow their fan bases. They will not pretend it didn't happen or hide anything.

If anybody knows Nico, they know he takes his responsibilities very seriously and will do whatever it takes for his team and sponsors. That shows in how he wears his heart on his sleeve and there are numerous examples of Chris talking to the media choking back tears be it out of pride of his team or taking responsibility for something on behalf of the team. He would have only had to ask his team members once to join Team Vestas such is the respect people have for him.

 

Make no mistake, Chris will be hurting. He'll be hurting for himself and far more so for his team, sponsors and even Volvo. In saying that, he'll take responsibility for what happened and most probably more than his share. By nature he puts others before himself and this will be no different. In the last VOR he learned of the birth of his second child and the death of his grandmother (with whom he had a close relationship with) literally within hours of each other whilst racing. Nothing was mentioned because it wasn't a 'team issue' but a personal one. He gives his absolute all to being a leader and is driven by the the fear of not letting his team down. Anyone could be forgiven to take some time to reflect on the importance of family at such a time, but no, the team comes before any personal issue of his own.

 

The truth will come out and Chris will not hesitate to share it even if it is at significant personal cost in order to protect his team. He'll be broken for a little while, but only after he has done what he has to do as the leader of the team.

 

The VOR is a story about people as much as it is a race. In Chris alone there will be quite a story to be told if he ever lets it be told, because the team comes first.

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Well put NZL3481. Have no doubt it will be an honest appraisal and by all accounts he was on deck at the time. I wonder what else was in the air drop bag? They could certainly do with a drink by now.....................

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Coral reefs are very unforgiving. The boat was doomed right from the start. A big tug with the right gear and right people might have had a hope of getting her out the way she came in in the first few hours, but sadly her fate was sealed by dawn. Too much swell on the windward side, too shallow on the lagoon side and remember that they put her on the bricks on the tail end of a TD so there was a pretty good pounding swell as seen in the photos. It doesn't take long for any sort of wave action on a hard ass reef like that to grind things to dust. Been there, done that!

 

 

Time to just reduce the impact by getting hydraulic fluid out even more so than diesel. Sails, cordage, winches, and perhaps the spar are worth the effort but little else is even to be considered. That bulb would make a nice storm mooring out in front of the little bungalow that the crew is sharing. I can't believe all the people here thinking that this boat could ever sail again, much less race. Let bygones be bygones...

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.

.....all those topnotch sailors hit almost head-on in 20kn........and Rimasidiotus just drifts.on.by.

 

 

.........life's not fair! :mellow::(

That's what they get for hoisting their sails. 1.2 kts or bust.
U mean they had BOTH sails up? No wonder

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Rasps, Don't you think with such a high profile event (at least in our little world of yacht racing) that it is necessary to remove the boat, if nothing else to reduce "environmental impact"?

 

I agree that they probably cannot make repairs and then ship to "port x" and have it competitive in this round.

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Rasps, Don't you think with such a high profile event that it is necessary to remove the boat, if nothing else to reduce "environmental impact"?

 

I agree that they probably cannot make repairs and then ship to "port x" and have it competitive in this round.

 

It would be nice to think all that high tech construction could still be put to some use...

 

I think the carbon panels could well be used in some local beach shacks; not a total waste then.

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tricky, I obviously edited my post after you quoted it, but I agree with that possibility too...doesn't seem to be a lot of renewable/natural resources available on that island from google earth.

 

Maybe they could cut up the boat and give each of the 6 boats remaining some repair panels for the bashing they might see on the way to China. :rolleyes:

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.

..nice one NZL!...I clearly know Nico far less than you,,but have followed news of him since his 49er days..probably watched those video's 100x. As much as I've enjoyed ribbing him at times, I've never perceived anything different than what you say.

 

...it's a tough time for Nico for sure,and all involved with VO. For VestasWind,the sponsor,I hope there's some way to salvage their ROI. Vestas is a standup company if any is,,and a great match with Nico. Vestas have been a vanguard sponsor of some cool sailing adventures in what are realistically tough times in the financial world. As they say in auto racing,the best ROI comes with the winners and the crashers...I hope something positive can be salvaged from this debacle.

 

....certainly the next wind turbine I buy will be a Vestas! :)

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Basically everything below the deck & probably the deck as well is toast. You've got a rig & the sails if they still have them. Not much to salvage so I'm betting they just drag it off. Wouldn't be surprised if the rig is damaged getting it off & the whole thing apart from some winches ends up as landfill. The cost of a proper salvage effort in that part of the world & proper transport back to a decent yard would outweigh the $$$ saved by cutting it up.

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I get the feeling that the material that gets published will be a story of shipwreck, survival and social responsibility in cleaning up. That's what will sell.

 

It will be interesting to see if the crew ever afford us an analysis of the events leading up to grounding. I doubt we will get much, although as sailors, this could be the most useful information to us.

 

I think many of you people have been so poisoned by the AC that you think every sailing problem will be hidden by organizers.

 

Knowing the team and the event's attitude, I'm quite confident that we will get every piece of info available. If not from Wouter's mouth himself, than from Brian. If not from Brian, then Nico. If not Nico, then Coxy, if not Coxy, than Knut.

 

This is far too big a tragedy to waste on trying to save someone's rep.

you are mistaking yourself and your boss for 'many of you people'

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I get the feeling that the material that gets published will be a story of shipwreck, survival and social responsibility in cleaning up. That's what will sell.

 

It will be interesting to see if the crew ever afford us an analysis of the events leading up to grounding. I doubt we will get much, although as sailors, this could be the most useful information to us.

 

I think many of you people have been so poisoned by the AC that you think every sailing problem will be hidden by organizers.

 

Knowing the team and the event's attitude, I'm quite confident that we will get every piece of info available. If not from Wouter's mouth himself, than from Brian. If not from Brian, then Nico. If not Nico, then Coxy, if not Coxy, than Knut.

 

This is far too big a tragedy to waste on trying to save someone's rep.

you are mistaking yourself and your boss for 'many of you people'

 

Let's revisit: Trickypig - not me - expressed doubt that the true story would be told; a fairly common reaction after the conditioning received by sailing fans in the wake of the Artemis mess and AC45 kingpostgate.

 

What's your point again?

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tricky, I obviously edited my post after you quoted it, but I agree with that possibility too...doesn't seem to be a lot of renewable/natural resources available on that island from google earth.

 

Maybe they could cut up the boat and give each of the 6 boats remaining some repair panels for the bashing they might see on the way to China. :rolleyes:

I remember that video from 2012 VOR where one of the boats started to delaminate so they lowered a crew member over the side of a heeled V70 to drill numerous holes which then got bolts and washers put in them. That's one way of holding a hull panel in one piece.

 

The other would be to have a piece of Vestas to bolt on… ;)

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I get the feeling that the material that gets published will be a story of shipwreck, survival and social responsibility in cleaning up. That's what will sell.

 

It will be interesting to see if the crew ever afford us an analysis of the events leading up to grounding. I doubt we will get much, although as sailors, this could be the most useful information to us.

 

I think many of you people have been so poisoned by the AC that you think every sailing problem will be hidden by organizers.

 

Knowing the team and the event's attitude, I'm quite confident that we will get every piece of info available. If not from Wouter's mouth himself, than from Brian. If not from Brian, then Nico. If not Nico, then Coxy, if not Coxy, than Knut.

 

This is far too big a tragedy to waste on trying to save someone's rep.

you are mistaking yourself and your boss for 'many of you people'

 

Let's revisit: Trickypig - not me - expressed doubt that the true story would be told; a fairly common reaction after the conditioning received by sailing fans in the wake of the Artemis mess.

 

What's your point again?

Not so much that the `true' story wouldn't be told, but that a nice version for the general non sailing public would be told without necessarily having the details us sailors would like.

 

You've put me straight though Clean and I look forward to your scoop.

 

BTW… thanks for calling me `you people'. <_<

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I get the feeling that the material that gets published will be a story of shipwreck, survival and social responsibility in cleaning up. That's what will sell.

 

It will be interesting to see if the crew ever afford us an analysis of the events leading up to grounding. I doubt we will get much, although as sailors, this could be the most useful information to us.

 

I think many of you people have been so poisoned by the AC that you think every sailing problem will be hidden by organizers.

 

Knowing the team and the event's attitude, I'm quite confident that we will get every piece of info available. If not from Wouter's mouth himself, than from Brian. If not from Brian, then Nico. If not Nico, then Coxy, if not Coxy, than Knut.

 

This is far too big a tragedy to waste on trying to save someone's rep.

you are mistaking yourself and your boss for 'many of you people'

 

Let's revisit: Trickypig - not me - expressed doubt that the true story would be told; a fairly common reaction after the conditioning received by sailing fans in the wake of the Artemis mess.

 

What's your point again?

Not so much that the `true' story wouldn't be told, but that a nice version for the general non sailing public would be told without necessarily having the details us sailors would like.

 

You've put me straight though Clean and I look forward to your scoop.

 

BTW… thanks for calling me `you people'. <_<

We're all 'you people'!

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I get the feeling that the material that gets published will be a story of shipwreck, survival and social responsibility in cleaning up. That's what will sell.

 

It will be interesting to see if the crew ever afford us an analysis of the events leading up to grounding. I doubt we will get much, although as sailors, this could be the most useful information to us.

 

I think many of you people have been so poisoned by the AC that you think every sailing problem will be hidden by organizers.

 

Knowing the team and the event's attitude, I'm quite confident that we will get every piece of info available. If not from Wouter's mouth himself, than from Brian. If not from Brian, then Nico. If not Nico, then Coxy, if not Coxy, than Knut.

 

This is far too big a tragedy to waste on trying to save someone's rep.

you are mistaking yourself and your boss for 'many of you people'

 

Let's revisit: Trickypig - not me - expressed doubt that the true story would be told; a fairly common reaction after the conditioning received by sailing fans in the wake of the Artemis mess and AC45 kingpostgate.

 

What's your point again?

 

a belief that you will never know the facts of an incident you have no first hand knowledge of is common and generally well founded

 

my point, Clean, is that you and Scott are the primary people around here who pour the poison when it comes to the AC

 

please don't miss this further expression of my feelings about it

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my point, Clean, is that you and Scott are the primary people around here who pour the poison when it comes to the AC

 

it's a cute idea, but let's be clear: we almost always reflect the feelings of the readers who give us feedback, and at the moment, the clear majority of American sailors think the AC is completely fucked, and that Larry should be strung up for stealing it from US shores. And there's really no question about that.

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What is left of the hulk after removing the environmentally offensive elements (Diesel, crankcase oil, hydraulic fluid and maybe batteries) would make a great lobster habitat in about 30 feet of water in the lagoon that the locals could harvest for years to come. I've done the same with an old CSY 44. What value that anyone thinks remains in these CF panels is a joke and what environmental threat that such essentially inert stuctures impose on the reef is insignificant. Perhaps the paint might have some biochemical adverse effects, but it was in the water in the first place. Time to get real and accept the true implications of this event. The boat is toast as a boat and there are some items to mitigate damages, but I assure you that it would be hard to even find any indication that the boat ever went aground there in a couple of years. Quit you reef hugging and making a mountain out of a molehill of insubstantial composites that will soon be pulverized through Mother Natures relentless mechanism. Drag what you can off via the lagoon and then barge it to a landfill on Marituous or wherever and the net result is the same. To be honest, the overall ecological effort to 'sanitize' the reef other than getting the really hasty stuff mentioned above would involve a lot of diesel being spent by tugs and barges and cranes just to dump the inert remains 300 miles away. Get over it, the boat is toast. Do what is essential and cut the losses to the sponsor. Time to move on...

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my point, Clean, is that you and Scott are the primary people around here who pour the poison when it comes to the AC

 

it's a cute idea, but let's be clear: we almost always reflect the feelings of the readers who give us feedback, and at the moment, the clear majority of American sailors think the AC is completely fucked, and that Larry should be strung up for stealing it from US shores. And there's really no question about that.

 

 

I find it hard to believe that the feedback you got to the AC being in SF was to not cover it and from my perspective that's where the animosity started.

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my point, Clean, is that you and Scott are the primary people around here who pour the poison when it comes to the AC

 

it's a cute idea, but let's be clear: we almost always reflect the feelings of the readers who give us feedback, and at the moment, the clear majority of American sailors think the AC is completely fucked, and that Larry should be strung up for stealing it from US shores. And there's really no question about that.

 

 

I find it hard to believe that the feedback you got to the AC being in SF was to not cover it and from my perspective that's where the animosity started.

 

There is no animosity at all. We watched the AC the way Larry asked us all to - over Youtube. That's the only way we could experience what the 'target audience' would. And we loved it. What's your point?

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tricky, I obviously edited my post after you quoted it, but I agree with that possibility too...doesn't seem to be a lot of renewable/natural resources available on that island from google earth.

 

Maybe they could cut up the boat and give each of the 6 boats remaining some repair panels for the bashing they might see on the way to China. :rolleyes:

I remember that video from 2012 VOR where one of the boats started to delaminate so they lowered a crew member over the side of a heeled V70 to drill numerous holes which then got bolts and washers put in them. That's one way of holding a hull panel in one piece.

 

The other would be to have a piece of Vestas to bolt on… ;)

 

Tricky, I remember that too...we were on the same page. :D

 

What is left of the hulk after removing the environmentally offensive elements (Diesel, crankcase oil, hydraulic fluid and maybe batteries) would make a great lobster habitat in about 30 feet of water in the lagoon that the locals could harvest for years to come. I've done the same with an old CSY 44. What value that anyone thinks remains in these CF panels is a joke and what environmental threat that such essentially inert stuctures impose on the reef is insignificant. Perhaps the paint might have some biochemical adverse effects, but it was in the water in the first place. Time to get real and accept the true implications of this event. The boat is toast as a boat and there are some items to mitigate damages, but I assure you that it would be hard to even find any indication that the boat ever went aground there in a couple of years. Quit you reef hugging and making a mountain out of a molehill of insubstantial composites that will soon be pulverized through Mother Natures relentless mechanism. Drag what you can off via the lagoon and then barge it to a landfill on Marituous or wherever and the net result is the same. To be honest, the overall ecological effort to 'sanitize' the reef other than getting the really hasty stuff mentioned above would involve a lot of diesel being spent by tugs and barges and cranes just to dump the inert remains 300 miles away. Get over it, the boat is toast. Do what is essential and cut the losses to the sponsor. Time to move on...

Rasp, I have no problem with that, either. Anything to keep the dwindling reefs from dwindling, or providing locals with resources to help continue surviving after the rest of us fuck up their world is OK with me.

 

I was just making conversation from the comfort of my climate controlled garage, to spark discussion. :ph34r:

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Isn't this a thread about a Blue boat hitting some black rocks on a white beach?

.

...a sign of just how infectious that AC cwap can be....perhaps a bit of 'crash-marketing' thrown in for taste. <_<

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Is that even salvageable? Wouldn't pulling it back over the reef not be the final straw?

 

1512200_10152917912412437_61713690740922

 

Jeez. And they had to walk across that reef.

 

Can you imagine the feeling of walking away from your Volvo Ocean Race VO65??? Freakin' surreal.

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i think everyone is missing the point. they can navigate, its the easiest part of their job. the hardest part is dealing with fatigue. looks to me as if they are pushing the envelope with 8 crew.

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The number of crew is irrelevant. They where on a collision course for 3 hours.

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This zoom out problem has caused a lot of problems for many people, including the deaths of those guys on the Ensenada race a year ago..

As an aside, we (the Aegean incident team) concluded that zoom issues were likely NOT a primary contributing factor in the Aegean incident.

 

That crew knew full well where those islands were, and you could see them on their plotter even well zoomed out. Our conclusion was that those guys were simply not paying attention (no situational awareness).

 

My guess in this Volvo case is that there has grown a twofold "culture problem": first with the nav's focused on weather and match racing and not having enough bandwidth to do what many of us consider "proper" nav proceedure. And second high pressure to save a hundred meters here or there and so cutting corners and edges closer than "proper seamanship" suggests (min 2nm to features like this), like low speed chase did. The zoom issues may not be ideal, but IMHO this is primarily a human and not technical failure.

 

Note: I am not speaking from any sort of moral high ground but rather speaking from experience, having made the same sort of human mistakes and earned hard lessons from them.

 

 

This sounds exactly right to me.

 

Yep

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Is that even salvageable? Wouldn't pulling it back over the reef not be the final straw?

 

1512200_10152917912412437_61713690740922

Jeez. And they had to walk across that reef.

 

Can you imagine the feeling of walking away from your Volvo Ocean Race VO65??? Freakin' surreal.

They tried to sail across it : - )

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Is that even salvageable? Wouldn't pulling it back over the reef not be the final straw?

 

1512200_10152917912412437_61713690740922

 

Jeez. And they had to walk across that reef.

 

Can you imagine the feeling of walking away from your Volvo Ocean Race VO65??? Freakin' surreal.

 

The windward side of that reef looks like it would be some great diving!

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I agree that the number of crew is irrelevant!

 

If you believe that 8 is too few crew on a 65footer.... then the IMOCA guys must be superhuman,

Dont even get me started on Loick and the crazy solo multi sailors

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Easy to judge. But there are only two kinds of sailors; those who have run aground and liars.

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One of mentors once said, everyone has an opinion, but some peoples opinions are better than others. People who actually race on the ocean on actual yachts I believe would think - "There but for the grace of god, go I" - translation:

I too, like someone seen to have suffered misfortune, might have suffered a similar fate, but for God's mercy.

It's easy to judge from the safety of a typist chair or the couch... for the house bound and opinionated my advice is, if you are granted the opportunity to race across the ocean - take a change of undies (or two) for those moments when you are so scared - you'll be squirting poo into your pants. :-).

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my point, Clean, is that you and Scott are the primary people around here who pour the poison when it comes to the AC

it's a cute idea, but let's be clear: we almost always reflect the feelings of the readers who give us feedback, and at the moment, the clear majority of American sailors think the AC is completely fucked, and that Larry should be strung up for stealing it from US shores. And there's really no question about that.

That sounds about right from my cheap seats.

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I agree that the number of crew is irrelevant!

 

If you believe that 8 is too few crew on a 65footer.... then the IMOCA guys must be superhuman,

Dont even get me started on Loick and the crazy solo multi sailors

The route around the great capes is in deep water. Other than avoiding bergs, its a weather routing course without hard bits. Don't confuse it with this route.

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My guess in this Volvo case is that there has grown a twofold "culture problem": first with the nav's focused on weather and match racing and not having enough bandwidth to do what many of us consider "proper" nav proceedure. And second high pressure to save a hundred meters here or there and so cutting corners and edges closer than "proper seamanship" suggests (min 2nm to features like this), like low speed chase did. The zoom issues may not be ideal, but IMHO this is primarily a human and not technical failure.

 

Note: I am not speaking from any sort of moral high ground but rather speaking from experience, having made the same sort of human mistakes and earned hard lessons from them.

 

 

This sounds exactly right to me.

 

Yep

 

Yup. So what's the "I'm knackered, but I need a fail safe way of staying off the bricks" answer? Paper charts (but they have those). A dedicated plotter with no weather, no routing, no AIS, just projected track & raster charts? Or just the "There but for the grace of God.... Check & double check"?

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Hey at least you got some interest from new people at last. Just goes to show that chicks who come last for the duration of sailing around the world events and drama are the only things that make our sport "mainstream".

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You need to keep the nav off the watch sched. He/she needs to focus on the details. Go to 9 people. I collapsed on the way to HI and missed my gybe by 6 hours. I didn't hit anything, but it screwed me on ET. My point is the navigator doesn't get any slack time. You're focused on the big picture and its easy to lose situational awareness at the speeds these guys are traveling.

 

 

Just ask JBSF what would happen if his mission plan were changed by 45 Kts (knowing that pilots can only divide by 60).

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They can navigate into a charted reef...

i think everyone is missing the point. they can navigate, its the easiest part of their job. the hardest part is dealing with fatigue. looks to me as if they are pushing the envelope with 8 crew.

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I've never sailed a boat like a VO65 so I don't know the noise level. But what puzzles me is that picture showing significant breaking waves on the reef. Wouldn't you hear that before you hit?

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I've never sailed a boat like a VO65 so I don't know the noise level. But what puzzles me is that picture showing significant breaking waves on the reef. Wouldn't you hear that before you hit?

I think they hit at high tide

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I've never sailed a boat like a VO65 so I don't know the noise level. But what puzzles me is that picture showing significant breaking waves on the reef. Wouldn't you hear that before you hit?

If the wind was aft probably not until the last moment.

 

I've skirted the windward side of reefs to look and was surprised how the roar of the surf is not very loud from behind the waves and upwind.

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I've never sailed a boat like a VO65 so I don't know the noise level. But what puzzles me is that picture showing significant breaking waves on the reef. Wouldn't you hear that before you hit?

 

They were in storms when they hit as I recall. Which would also give a hint that Wouter and the whole crew were focused on trying to locate the clouds in the night and may have overlooked the extent of the reef.

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Easy to judge. But there are only two kinds of sailors; those who have run aground and liars.

 

 

I went decades without running aground. -edit to add- I was beginning to think I never would.

 

But when I did it was simply because of human error on my AND my wife's part. I gave her clear directions while she was at the helm. Went forward to stow the anchor. She saw the current eddys over the rock and thought something was there, but had faith in my directions. We were both wrong, but either one of us could have prevented it. likely the case here. There will be a series of error that could have been halted at any point. it is pretty much always the case.

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You need to keep the nav off the watch sched. He/she needs to focus on the details. Go to 9 people. I collapsed on the way to HI and missed my gybe by 6 hours. I didn't hit anything, but it screwed me on ET. My point is the navigator doesn't get any slack time. You're focused on the big picture and its easy to lose situational awareness at the speeds these guys are traveling.

 

 

Just ask JBSF what would happen if his mission plan were changed by 45 Kts (knowing that pilots can only divide by 60).

All the teams have the same resources so I don't think you can blame fatigue or fairly suggest that they need more crew.

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One of mentors once said, everyone has an opinion, but some peoples opinions are better than others. People who actually race on the ocean on actual yachts I believe would think - "There but for the grace of god, go I" - translation:

I too, like someone seen to have suffered misfortune, might have suffered a similar fate, but for God's mercy.

It's easy to judge from the safety of a typist chair or the couch... for the house bound and opinionated my advice is, if you are granted the opportunity to race across the ocean - take a change of undies (or two) for those moments when you are so scared - you'll be squirting poo into your pants. :-).

 

Ok, you win! That was indeed THE WORST first post on Sailing Anarchy - EVER!

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My guess in this Volvo case is that there has grown a twofold "culture problem": first with the nav's focused on weather and match racing and not having enough bandwidth to do what many of us consider "proper" nav proceedure. And second high pressure to save a hundred meters here or there and so cutting corners and edges closer than "proper seamanship" suggests (min 2nm to features like this), like low speed chase did. The zoom issues may not be ideal, but IMHO this is primarily a human and not technical failure.

 

Note: I am not speaking from any sort of moral high ground but rather speaking from experience, having made the same sort of human mistakes and earned hard lessons from them.

 

 

This sounds exactly right to me.

 

Yep

 

Yup. So what's the "I'm knackered, but I need a fail safe way of staying off the bricks" answer? Paper charts (but they have those). A dedicated plotter with no weather, no routing, no AIS, just projected track & raster charts? Or just the "There but for the grace of God.... Check & double check"?

 

How about doing some pre-race planning and putting waypoints or exclusion zones or whatever into your GPS Nav systems of all the hazards anywhere between CT and Abu Dhabi so that that when you get anywhere near it, it shows up on your screen no matter how zoomed in or out your or how many overlays you have displayed? Its not rocket surgery.

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You need to keep the nav off the watch sched. He/she needs to focus on the details. Go to 9 people. I collapsed on the way to HI and missed my gybe by 6 hours. I didn't hit anything, but it screwed me on ET. My point is the navigator doesn't get any slack time. You're focused on the big picture and its easy to lose situational awareness at the speeds these guys are traveling.

 

 

Just ask JBSF what would happen if his mission plan were changed by 45 Kts (knowing that pilots can only divide by 60).

 

HEY! Dividing by 60 took many many years of practice to perfect! Besides, I didn't know there were any other numbers.....

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How about doing some pre-race planning and putting waypoints or exclusion zones or whatever into your GPS Nav systems of all the hazards anywhere between CT and Abu Dhabi so that that when you get anywhere near it, it shows up on your screen no matter how zoomed in or out your or how many overlays you have displayed? Its not rocket surgery.

Part of the problem is that the area they were in was excluded when they left Cape Town but the exclusion was removed when the tropical depression became threatening.

Hindsight suggests that maybe it should have remained excluded.

Not all the exclusions for this leg were published for security reasons.

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You need to keep the nav off the watch sched. He/she needs to focus on the details. Go to 9 people. I collapsed on the way to HI and missed my gybe by 6 hours. I didn't hit anything, but it screwed me on ET. My point is the navigator doesn't get any slack time. You're focused on the big picture and its easy to lose situational awareness at the speeds these guys are traveling.

 

 

Just ask JBSF what would happen if his mission plan were changed by 45 Kts (knowing that pilots can only divide by 60).

All the teams have the same resources so I don't think you can blame fatigue or fairly suggest that they need more crew.

Consider that Dong feng nearly hit the same island and avoided it because it was daylight out.

 

I believe it was more of a work flow/ habit issue that the teams weren't paying attention to.

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.

 

.....it's too bad boat 8 wasn't built. ...woulda,,,coulda,,,shoulda. :mellow:

During the Alicante start a second SCA boat was shown. was that a VO65 or some other hull for training purposes? It was painted up the same but it was motoring around instead of racing.

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.

 

.....it's too bad boat 8 wasn't built. ...woulda,,,coulda,,,shoulda. :mellow:

During the Alicante start a second SCA boat was shown. was that a VO65 or some other hull for training purposes? It was painted up the same but it was motoring around instead of racing.

 

That was their VO70 (former Puma I believe)

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Consider that Dong feng nearly hit the same island and avoided it because it was daylight out.

 

I believe it was more of a work flow/ habit issue that the teams weren't paying attention to.

 

Dongfeng did not miss it "nearly": if i recall correctly Charles discovered the islands while checking for dangers on the charts before they came to St. Brandon. They gibed about 50 miles south of it - but they gibed some 5 miles later as the rest of the pack - this "navigational error" cost them 2 miles: because of the late gybe they had to avoid the shoals, but as they were passing in daylight they could pass them close.

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By coincidence, this article just came out yesterday which might have some relevance to the Vestas situation perhaps?

 

https://www.hfes.org/web/DetailNews.aspx?ID=362

 

 

A good reminder for us all to keep our eyeballs over the side of the boat and not letting yourself get mesmerised by the pixels on the various screen below

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up. So what's the "I'm knackered, but I need a fail safe way of staying off the bricks" answer? Paper charts (but they have those). A dedicated plotter with no weather, no routing, no AIS, just projected track & raster charts? Or just the "There but for the grace of God.... Check & double check"?

 

I personally think the whole Nav/safety community has not paid as much attention as they should have, during the transition from paper to e-charts, to how the process and work flow should change. I personally had a couple 'bad/near miss incidents' during my own transition and learned my own lessons, but have never seen a good best practices write up.

 

So, I have neither an 'expert' nor have studied the topic broadly, but my own lessons were:

 

1. Pre-passage planning needs to include following along the route line (and either side for a decent ways) as high zoom to look for dangerous features, and pins put on them. And yes, that can involve scrolling along a 2000nm route line bit by bit - slow and tedious but it has to be done. In this Volvo case, it become a little more complex because these islands were in an exclusion zone at the start, but when the exclusion was lifted and the route move to go thru the area, that prep-work then needed to be done (and time made for the Nav to do it).

 

We are 99% e-charting now, but we do keep an ocean scale paper chart out, which makes the above 'high level' feature scan a bit easier/faster/more fool proof. And we also keep (but stowed away) paper 'landfall/harbor entry' charts for the 3 (or so) likely (primary plus alternate backups) landfalls - in case the electronics die.

 

2. I do weather routing on a PC, but have a dedicated plotter always running at relatively close zoom (usually 12nm), and part of the watch process is to take a good look at it (each hour) and double check that there is nothing to hit in the next hour (or the watch is well aware of/communicated to about what is there they could hit). This includes AIS targets.

 

3. If there are potential dangers, clearing bearings and depths are somewhat forgotten concepts in the gps point and shoot age, but still very useful/valuable. They are useful for two reasons. First they communicate to/involve the deck in when/where they can safety proceed and when they should be extremely cautious - they are in essence a component of CRM. Second, by simply going thru the systematic process of constructing them, the Nav is forced to carefully study/double check the problems he is likely to face. In this particular case, a clearing depth (alarm) would probably have prevented the incident.

 

4. With the apparent accuracy of e-charts and AIS CPA's I think most of us find ourselves going closer to dangers than we used to. This accuracy can be misleading, because the charts can be a bit wrong, or humans can f*&k up, or a 3 sigma breaking wave can choose that moment, or that ship can turn, and if you have left no safety margin because you thought everything was calculated accurate down to 3m's, you are then shit out of luck. We all need to develop a new paradigm for choosing 'safe distances' to various hazards.

 

This is a complex, many faceted, issue to solve; and I do not have any grand solution to offer. Mostly it is a judgement issue based on hard experience; but the 'pro hands' should be able to offer some useful rules of thumb for this 'new world' (where we know where we are very accurately, and where many hazards are very accurately, but not all, and human error is ever present). Stan Honey suggested one particular 'safe distance' model (for shallow water wave situations) in the low speed chase report. I have suggested in posts above that I personally considered 2nm a 'safe distance' to remote reefs like this volvo one. But given the ocean pilot comments about accuracy, 3nm might have been more appropriate. It turns out that for the 'main features' this reef seems to have been much more accurately charted than the pilot suggests, but who knows how accurate all the surrounding little islets and coral heads actually are.

 

Fatigue and work load have to be part of the 'safe distance' equation.

 

 

Consider that Dong feng nearly hit the same island and avoided it because it was daylight out.

 

I believe it was more of a work flow/ habit issue that the teams weren't paying attention to.

 

Dongfeng did not miss it "nearly": if i recall correctly Charles discovered the islands while checking for dangers on the charts before they came to St. Brandon. They gibed about 50 miles south of it - but they gibed some 5 miles later as the rest of the pack - this "navigational error" cost them 2 miles: because of the late gybe they had to avoid the shoals, but as they were passing in daylight they could pass them close.

I personally would argue that Dong was 'too close'. The fact that they went thru in daylight saved them. But would suggest that 'luck' also played a role. When you are sailing at 6kts you can in fact spot isolated coral heads in daylight with good sunlight from the right direction, but at 15kts hmmm, not so much. They were taking a 'low speed chase' sort of risk (eg low but non-trivial probability of something bad happening) going thru where they did.

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You need to keep the nav off the watch sched. He/she needs to focus on the details. Go to 9 people. I collapsed on the way to HI and missed my gybe by 6 hours. I didn't hit anything, but it screwed me on ET. My point is the navigator doesn't get any slack time. You're focused on the big picture and its easy to lose situational awareness at the speeds these guys are traveling.

 

 

Just ask JBSF what would happen if his mission plan were changed by 45 Kts (knowing that pilots can only divide by 60).

 

I posted earlier in this thread about the issue of lack of sleep for a navigator

 

I am pretty much always out of the watch rotation - i miss sailing the boat - but I think it's better.

 

nevertheless, it doesn't solve the problem - as I said in the other post, I don't like to go to sleep, because i'm worried about what can go wrong.

 

mostly, i'm worried about tactical issues, not running aground.

 

In some BDA races, I haven't slept at all til we were through the gulf stream.

 

but in most coastal races you are nearly always in a spot where potentially the boat could run aground.

 

Like i said in the other post, one key thing is having confidence in the watch captains - and I've always sailed with WC's in which I have complete confidence when it comes to things like running aground.

 

the more difficult issue for the navigator, is keeping the WC's current with the changing strategic and tactical considerations as the race develops - I think a lot of sailors may not understand how much of a continuous process this is

 

it's really rough in races with nearly continuous tracking - like the BDA race has now - just following the competition becomes a full time job - you don't want to wake up and find that someone has gotten away from you.

 

If as navigator I haven't done a good job of keeping the WC's up to date with tactical issues, and i don't feel that i have someone i can delegate responsibility to, then I am less likely to feel that i can go to sleep.

 

it's really important to have regular and productive meetings with WC's

 

and i'm sure all navigators have had the experience of going to sleep, but not really sleeping - checking the #s on their iphone every 10 minutes....

 

Anyway, the thing is you have to sleep - i'm better at it now than i was when i started navigating

 

if you don't sleep your decisions will be poor, and both safety and tactics will suffer.

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Are you guys forgetting that Oxley warned Vestus about the reef 15 minutes before he got a call saying they were on it. Gross negligence here. They were aware of the issue, maybe they didn't think they were that close. Time will tell. One big f-up.

 

The boat is toast. Donate every piece of it to the locals and let them make useful "island tools" out of it. Harken pedestal chum grinder would be pretty sweet. Maybe the Southern Spars/ North Sails Hospitality Tent

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Are you guys forgetting that Oxley warned Vestus about the reef 15 minutes before he got a call saying they were on it.

 

 

Where is that?

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Are you guys forgetting that Oxley warned Vestus about the reef 15 minutes before he got a call saying they were on it.

 

I know Will spoke to his own crew just before they got the Vestas call, wasn't aware they'd spoken to Vestas prior to the grounding. Got a link to a video or article?

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Are you guys forgetting that Oxley warned Vestus about the reef 15 minutes before he got a call saying they were on it.

 

 

Where is that?

 

Oxley did not warned Vestas. He and onboard reporter Amory were discussing the route before they got the call from RC.

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A new Team Vestas Wind press release:

 

On Saturday 29th December 2014 at 15:21 UTC, Team Vestas Wind reported having run aground Cargados Carajos Shoals, Mauritius. No one was injured.

The nine-man crew abandoned ship in the early hours of Sunday morning, wading through knee-deep water to a dry position on the reef. They were picked up from there at daylight by a coastguard rib and taken to the nearby Íle du Sud.

Almost 72 hours after the accident, and as the Team make their way to Mauritius, skipper Chris Nicholson (Nico) and shore manager Neil Cox (Coxy), presently in Mauritius coordinating activities, give their take on recent events:

Abandoning the boat

Nico: “We knew there was shallow water on the other side of the reef in the lagoon side. The problem was that for most of the night we were on the deep water side and the boat was being beaten by those complete point break waves. Two hours before daylight, the boat leaned over heavily so I made the decision that we were getting off. We’d been practicing throughout the night how we were going to do it. We made the call and got on with the job.

Coxy: “They were into the life rafts and literally 20 mins later, I got another phone call saying we’re all good and we’re standing on a rock…we’ve paddled a quarter of a mile or whatever away from the boat. They were able to get on a rock above the reef, a good metre and a half above sea level. Everyone was accounted for, everyone safe, so of course that’s a huge relief. The whole situation was defused, but the reality of it is, they were standing on a rock in the middle of the Indian Ocean”.

Immediate concerns

Nico: “My major concerns were obviously for the well-being of my crew, and also everyone who may actually have felt for them that night as well. Some of my first phone calls after colliding with the reef, once I let Race Control know, were asking Neil Cox to get the families informed so that they knew what was going on. During the course of things we lost all electrical supply, we lost satphone coverage, and the old snowball thing was happening. I can only imagine what was happening with the families. So that’s my immediate concern and also that we need to recover this vessel as much as we possibly can.”

Coxy: “We have still got nine guys sitting on what is basically a sand pit out in the middle of the Indian Ocean. They are still the priority. It’s a peace of mind to know they’re all safe and doing everything they can out there with the boat right now.

The Mauritius Coast Guard flew over the islet yesterday and air dropped food and medicine to the shipwrecked crew. There is limited electricity available on the islet via a generator that operates part of the day. We’ve got the sat phone there, that’s our main source of communication.”

Next steps?

Coxy: “A fishing boat will pick the guys up early tomorrow (Tuesday) morning. It’s almost a day trip to get them back to Mauritius, so we’re looking at them arriving early Wednesday morning. I’m in the process right now of getting everyone’s customs clearance, getting all the bureaucracy sorted out before they get here, trying to make it as simple as possible for them. They’re stepping onto Mauritius with basically the clothing they’ve got on them.

We’re trying to bring as much back as we can on the fishing boat so it can be reused or returned or whatever needs to be. We’ll deal with the boat after that.

Just like any competitive or professional sport things can go wrong and they have to be dealt with as professionally as when everything is going right. I know I can speak for Nico, myself and our sponsor when I say that we want to make sure that everything is followed through 100%”.

Limiting environmental impact

Skipper Chris Nicholson and several others crew members have returned several times to the Vestas boat to remove as much environmentally sensitive material as possible. Given just how little they have to work with out there, the crew is demonstrating extraordinary professionalism and environmental responsibility in this regard.

Nico: “The whole crew spent as long a time as we could retrieving diesel, oil, hydraulics, batteries, water, food, equipment etc. from the boat to limit environmental impact. It’s an absolutely stunning lagoon and bird colony that’s on these islands, and it’s just unheard of - so we are going to do our best and clean up.”

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You need to keep the nav off the watch sched. He/she needs to focus on the details. Go to 9 people. I collapsed on the way to HI and missed my gybe by 6 hours. I didn't hit anything, but it screwed me on ET. My point is the navigator doesn't get any slack time. You're focused on the big picture and its easy to lose situational awareness at the speeds these guys are traveling.

 

 

Just ask JBSF what would happen if his mission plan were changed by 45 Kts (knowing that pilots can only divide by 60).

I posted earlier in this thread about the issue of lack of sleep for a navigator

 

I am pretty much always out of the watch rotation - i miss sailing the boat - but I think it's better.

 

nevertheless, it doesn't solve the problem - as I said in the other post, I don't like to go to sleep, because i'm worried about what can go wrong.

 

mostly, i'm worried about tactical issues, not running aground.

 

In some BDA races, I haven't slept at all til we were through the gulf stream.

 

but in most coastal races you are nearly always in a spot where potentially the boat could run aground.

 

Like i said in the other post, one key thing is having confidence in the watch captains - and I've always sailed with WC's in which I have complete confidence when it comes to things like running aground.

 

the more difficult issue for the navigator, is keeping the WC's current with the changing strategic and tactical considerations as the race develops - I think a lot of sailors may not understand how much of a continuous process this is

 

it's really rough in races with nearly continuous tracking - like the BDA race has now - just following the competition becomes a full time job - you don't want to wake up and find that someone has gotten away from you.

 

If as navigator I haven't done a good job of keeping the WC's up to date with tactical issues, and i don't feel that i have someone i can delegate responsibility to, then I am less likely to feel that i can go to sleep.

 

it's really important to have regular and productive meetings with WC's

 

and i'm sure all navigators have had the experience of going to sleep, but not really sleeping - checking the #s on their iphone every 10 minutes....

 

Anyway, the thing is you have to sleep - i'm better at it now than i was when i started navigating

 

if you don't sleep your decisions will be poor, and both safety and tactics will suffer.

 

 

At a minimum of every watch change the navigator should be giving a brief to the oncoming watch captain. What has been trending, conditions wise, and what to expect in their watch. This includes any features and characteristics like reefs and land masses.

 

Also like to point out that on something short, like a BDA race, you really don't get into the swing of watch rotations. However when doing longer legs you get into them and the fatigue issues go away. You become accustom to the routine.

When I sailed around the planet I pretty much didn't break from a watch sched when we got to port. No point in it. You just get up in the middle of the night, grab a snack, read, think about the next leg then hit the sack again. That was two decades ago and I still don't sleep through the night. Circadian Rhythm adjusted to it and it ain't ever coming back to what most consider normal.

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Easy to judge. But there are only two kinds of sailors; those who have run aground and liars.

Each time you hear that bang, bump, thud, or shudder , you learn somthing. Like fuck, don't do that again. I know there are 101 ways to run aground but there is no point testing them all out eh?

That's why some of us like offshore sailing where there is bugger all around to run into ( except those big steel monsters)

For some reason I just look at it like this , as many of you will.

Rule 5 proper lookout, Rule 6 Safe speed, Rule 7 Risk of collision Rule 8 action to avoid a collision and so on.

Then eventually you stop hitting things.

Of course ya need ya lucky charms, Red Sox, glass fishing float and that dusty old sextant.

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Are you guys forgetting that Oxley warned Vestus about the reef 15 minutes before he got a call saying they were on it.

 

 

Where is that?

Oxley did not warned Vestas. He and onboard reporter Amory were discussing the route before they got the call from RC.

Oy. Read it wrong. Probably should have been paying attention to traffic instead. carry on...

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Lat21 that is a simple world background C Map that simply shows graphicaly what high res C Map charts you have loaded in Expedition and that can allow the relevant high res map to be automaticaly loaded for use depending on actual position. Apart from that it is useless.

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4. With the apparent accuracy of e-charts and AIS CPA's I think most of us find ourselves going closer to dangers than we used to. This accuracy can be misleading, because the charts can be a bit wrong, or humans can f*&k up, or a 3 sigma breaking wave can choose that moment, or that ship can turn, and if you have left no safety margin because you thought everything was calculated accurate down to 3m's, you are then shit out of luck. We all need to develop a new paradigm for choosing 'safe distances' to various hazards.

THIS!

I think we all do this to an extent. Why go miles out of your way to stay in the main channel when you can skirt the bar and save time? This is also a well known issue with airplanes and XM Weather. People fly near storms they would have avoided by 50 miles without the nice NEXRAD display. Every now and again someone finds out a fast moving storm and the delay in XM image processing = :o:o

I think we all know that if restricted to celestial nav, these islands would have been given a 25 mile gap, not a 2 mile one :rolleyes:

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The tone of this thread was to let Vestas speak as to what went wrong and not rush to judge / throw under a bus.

We are over 72 hours later and the press releases coming from Vestas are fucking PR bullshit garbage.