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PaulinVictoria

Team Vestas grounded

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Short video interview with Neil Cox

The respect Neil Cox has for his teammates and in particular Alvimedica is crystal clear. Alvimedica's role in this shouldn't be underestimated and again I think you'll find it comes back to the close relationship Will and Nico had during the last VOR as skipper and navigator in amongst the broader respect competitors have for one another in this race.

 

Whilst there is a lot to do in terms of recovering the crew, gear, etc, it's still highly emotional for the guys involved. Neil Cox speaks like he's nearly lost a family member.

 

If there is a lesson as to how tight a team can be and what they'll do for each other, then this is it...

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post-20594-0-85368400-1417548928_thumb.j

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...all power to Vestas!...I'm hoping boat 8 was mostly completed already....''the lads on the floor decided to keep things rolling. They were kinda hoping to get some rides themselves,,but I'm sure some good wage might talk it off their hands'' :rolleyes:

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Stan Honey suggested one particular 'safe distance' model (for shallow water wave situations) in the low speed chase report. I have suggested in posts above that I personally considered 2nm a 'safe distance' to remote reefs like this volvo one. But given the ocean pilot comments about accuracy, 3nm might have been more appropriate. It turns out that for the 'main features' this reef seems to have been much more accurately charted than the pilot suggests, but who knows how accurate all the surrounding little islets and coral heads actually are.

 

Fatigue and work load have to be part of the 'safe distance' equation.

 

Good points, but

1; distance to warn the navigator for dangerous areas is depended on boatspeed. Specially on the oceans sailing. Onshore the dangers are normally all around . So your mentioned 3 miles is very short of sailing with 15 knots, while its enough if your sailing 5 knots.

 

I have done some stupid shit in delivery mode, like for training tacking so close as possible to the coast at night. Was in South Portugal when going north, light winds, getting bored. I was really close to shore, but never heard it, did see raised land to warn me, a black band. A low lying island would be missed. Did not hear anything of the ocean surf on the rocky coast. Another member was on depth meter watch, the other on GPS (which is less accurate near high coasts). Never again, to scary. See picture, will never forget this lesson.

This was pre elec charts. Since then I use the gps lat lon as warning signs for the crew to wake me. At least 10 m before the danger. Try to find easy to remember numbers for them.

post-188-0-18559500-1417551229_thumb.png

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Great that nobody got hurt.

 

Good to hear they are headed back.

 

Bad break all around, but cheers to Vestas, great company and great team, they have my highest praise for their sponsorships / sailing.

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Ok I got the whole scoop on what happened.One guy leaned over the back to take a piss another went to get water for dry throat and the spliff in the helmsman mouth got wet when they hit.What do you recon!!

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The tone of this thread was to let Vestas speak as to what went wrong and not rush to judge / throw under a bus.

We are over 72 hours later and the press releases coming from Vestas are fucking PR bullshit garbage.

The team is ship wrecked on an island with minimal food, water awaiting rescue. They have a sat phone with a dying battery a local generator that runs just a few hours during the day/ night.

 

What part of that is fucking ridiculous ? This isn't hollywood land where we beam people off the island instantly. In the real world you can't build a tv studio out of coconuts and mangos

 

It is hard to have more PR when you are still trying to get people and equipment on site.

 

As for team vesta I hope their only complaint is the lack of females stuck on that island with them.

My point is coming from someone who is genuinely engaged and interested in the race.
And your the only one??? And your vested interest is??

 

Fuk of!

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Ok I got the whole scoop on what happened.One guy leaned over the back to take a piss another went to get water for dry throat and the spliff in the helmsman mouth got wet when they hit.What do you recon!!

.

 

 

...yes,,I think you're on to something f 'sure.....this definitely supports Robin's theory.....

 

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.

Charlie Noble, on 02 Dec 2014 - 08:48, said:

The tone of this thread was to let Vestas speak as to what went wrong and not rush to judge / throw under a bus.
We are over 72 hours later and the press releases coming from Vestas are fucking PR bullshit garbage.

 

My point is coming from someone who is genuinely engaged and interested in the race.

.

 

.....nice one Charlie....so good of you to join the team! :)

 

 

 

I don't really care. I'm interested in the story (pictures, video) and that is why they have OBR's. If they can send same day, live pictures from reporters being bombed in Afghanistan then surely... Unfortunately, this story is getting old fast

....errr,welcome to SA,,'S'....I guess we'll put you in with the 'tough crowd' group ...I hope that's okay :mellow:<_<

 

 

post-3217-0-70800700-1417554104_thumb.jpgpost-3217-0-68393000-1417554110_thumb.jpgpost-3217-0-54868100-1417554119_thumb.jpg

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3. .... In this particular case, a clearing depth (alarm) would probably have prevented the incident.

Excellent points as usual from Estar, PE and others. From any of the VOR teams, the odds are that this was a known danger, with a sort of risk analysis done and direction given. Abu Dhabi's statement is telling in that they came close and could have missed it at night - they knew about it. Keeping X miles away is a good measure, but if I'm taking some risk by going closer because I want to get to "point B" faster, and in racing you always want to win some extra meters, I usually limit the risk by saying we will tack or jibe at X depth. The value of X will have to do with what the chart tells me about the bottom over my intended course, my experience with the area, my appetite for risk, whether my boat is fragile or sturdy, etc. In the combination of fatigue, focus on sailing fast, and the million other things going on, at night, it would really help to get a little reminder from a computer that will continue to pay attention to the depth. I can't imagine that they set a depth alarm and then ignored it. I'm guilty of not setting one when I should, but when I do set it, I'm usually happy about it.

 

I realize this is jumping ahead, but if the above scenario is correct, then hubris has something to do with it too. (I wouldn't mention that to Stamm either. Or Joyon.) I think Estar is right, but then why don't they set an alarm? The culture of experienced sailors is to say "I've got that risk covered" and 99% of the time they do, so setting an alarm is overkill. But when sailing 15 knots at night, even the best could use a little help. When Vestas makes a statement we could find out that this is wrong headed, but as Estar puts it, using that tool on board probably would have prevented the incident.

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i want to see them build a new boat in 3 months and rejoin the race. How awesome would that be?

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Until we get better pictures, I don't think we can completely rule out the recovery of the deck and maybe even the rig, and construction of a new hull for launch maybe down in New Zealand?

 

Not likely, but not much detail at this stage. We know there are two spare rigs, enough spare rudders, lying around. Who knows about the keel. They may have got the sails off, and if not the Vestas practice sails are hardly touched.

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i want to see them build a new boat in 3 months and rejoin the race. How awesome would that be?

.

....that'd be the type of Vestaspirit we've come to know and love!

 

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Would be quite awesome.

But how realistic is it? Even if you went to both Green Marine and Multiplast right now with a largish box of Euros.

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This part...

 

The team plans to make a full statement on the facts later this week.

 

Is the most important piece. So clearly we should shut this thread down for a couple days and see what they say before speculating more.

 

(Good luck with that!) ;-)

aww I want to make Gilligan island jokes.

 

Why is Team Vesta Sad? Because MaryAnne and Ginger sailed with Team SCA.

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i want to see them build a new boat in 3 months and rejoin the race. How awesome would that be?

 

Vestas should be allowed to purchase or charter a VO70 to continue to participate in each leg.

They could continue to participate "unofficially" like Pen Duick VI in the 1977 race. It would be awesome to have a VO70 to watch among the current boats.

 

If a new VOD65 is then built they could return to "official" racing with the new boat.

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i want to see them build a new boat in 3 months and rejoin the race. How awesome would that be?

 

 

If Knut really wants 10 boats on the line next race they're going to need to build a new boat at some point; might as well do it now. Seems like that would be a PR win if they could get back out there.

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I agree would be good to see them get a 70 & get back out there. Give them a pursuit start penalty & obviously not eligible for the podium but give them there own podium make it a bit light hearted.

 

Or:

 

Give all the boats some Vestas signage & split the crew up in the remaining boats 1 to each boat. Keep the sponsors happy.

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That boat is toast. The cost of salvage & rebuild at a reputable yard would be more than a new boat built at the factory where they have all the tooling & the process & procedure down pat.

 

Be great if the could get some parts of it like the rig but I doubt that will happen unless the insurance is responsible for getting it back to safe harbour & they can buy it back.

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That boat is toast. The cost of salvage & rebuild at a reputable yard would be more than a new boat built at the factory where they have all the tooling & the process & procedure down pat.

 

Be great if the could get some parts of it like the rig but I doubt that will happen unless the insurance is responsible for getting it back to safe harbour & they can buy it back.

 

You'd never want to re-use that rig. Can you imagine the shockloading from hitting the bricks at that speed?

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BTW, I think you have to give some credit to the boat design/build.

 

If it had broken and sunk immediately when it hit the reef, at night in waves on the windward side of a reef, I think it quite likely someone would have died. Almost certain injuries.

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While it would be great to see Vestas back on the water there is little doubt that the boat is toast. And- what would be the point in building a boat to maybe be able to join the fleet for the last leg? I certainly wouldn't want to waste my time trying to convince the sponsor to pay for that and get laughed all the way from Lem back to under the rock they would be trying to hide under

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While it would be great to see Vestas back on the water there is little doubt that the boat is toast. And- what would be the point in building a boat to maybe be able to join the fleet for the last leg? I certainly wouldn't want to waste my time trying to convince the sponsor to pay for that and get laughed all the way from Lem back to under the rock they would be trying to hide under

Maybe. But I think most people would not like to see the careers of these great sailors go this way. A chance at redemption, even if little chance of competing, would go a long way. Vestas seems committed. I think it would be a big day to see them back.

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Nicholson is a twice-Olympian, who is one of the most experienced off-shore sailors in the world. He said that a ‘mistake’ had been responsible for the collision with the reef, but did not elaborate.

 

A mistake like "While in Mauritius we purchased some French charts but did not realise the French measure longitude which begins from Paris NOT Greenwich, a difference of some 30 milles " ?

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can someone confirm this story i heard way back in the day (IOR). the Maxi, Congers was doing the BA-Rio Race. to expedite immigrations at the finish, the executive BN took all the passports with him to meet the boat and clear the crew so the crew could get on with business at hand (partying). somewhere between the start and finish, the boat ran aground and the whole crew were jailed for illegal entry into a country since they did not have their passports with them!!!

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If Knut really wants 10 boats on the line next race they're going to need to build a new boat at some point; might as well do it now. Seems like that would be a PR win if they could get back out there.

.

....I'm hoping that if the value of Vestas' ROI is part of the insurance,,things would happen fast.

 

....but I guess every insurance buying sailor would be paying forever. :mellow:

 

 

 

That boat is toast. The cost of salvage & rebuild at a reputable yard would be more than a new boat built at the factory where they have all the tooling & the process & procedure down pat.

 

Be great if the could get some parts of it like the rig but I doubt that will happen unless the insurance is responsible for getting it back to safe harbour & they can buy it back.

 

You'd never want to re-use that rig. Can you imagine the shockloading from hitting the bricks big waves at that speed?

.

.....fixed^^,,wouldn't want to use a well proven used mast like that. :wacko:

 

 

 

 

 

A mistake like "While in Mauritius we purchased some French charts but did not realise the French measure longitude which begins from Paris NOT Greenwich, a difference of some 30 milles " ?

.

......likely the inter-world equivalent,no? :unsure:

 

 

 

...the VO70 idea sounds fun.

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While it would be great to see Vestas back on the water there is little doubt that the boat is toast. And- what would be the point in building a boat to maybe be able to join the fleet for the last leg? I certainly wouldn't want to waste my time trying to convince the sponsor to pay for that and get laughed all the way from Lem back to under the rock they would be trying to hide under

 

It wouldn't be just for the last leg. There are a lot of legs left, with the schedule being loaded up with shorter legs toward the end.

 

Here's the days between today (December 2, 2014) and the start of the next 5 legs:

 

* 30 days until Leg 3 start (Abu Dhabi to Sanya -- plus 6 more legs remaining)

* 66 days until Leg 4 start (Sanya to Auckland -- plus 5 more legs remaining)

* 101 days until Leg 5 start (Auckland to Itajai -- plus 4 more legs remaining)

* 136 days until Leg 6 start (Itajai to Newport -- plus 3 more legs remaining)

* 164 days until Leg 7 start (Newport to Lisbon -- plus 2 more legs remaining)

 

Toward the end of the list, I'd think those starts are totally doable with a new-built boat, at least from a project-management standpoint, assuming the money is there.

 

And there's this: The sponsor doesn't care about winning the race per se. The sponsor cares about exposure, and goodwill, and favorable publicity. That's what they're actually paying for. If Vestas were to commit to building a new boat and getting it on the line as soon as possible, I'd have to think they'd be getting a steady stream of positive publicity. It'd be like the women's team with SCA, only moreso: There's a built-in feel-good storyline that the media would be unable to resist. It's almost like giving the sponsor a guaranteed podium-finish-worth of publicity for every stage from here forward, the "race to reach the starting line", the skipper and crew's "race for redemption", etc.

 

It'd be dramatic. It'd be interesting. _I'd_ sure watch it.

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From the race thread: By Corkob

 


"Morten Albæk, Vestas Chief Marketing Officer comments, Though we will not be able to compete in next leg of the Race from Abu Dhabi to Sanya, China, we are considering all available options for re-joining the ocean race at a later stage. Vestas is a company that has overcome great challenges in its 35 years of existence and we aim to do so again."

They must be considering some kind of salvage and repair operation. I suppose at the end of the day, there's no boat that can't be fixed, or salvage that can't be achieved, if you are prepared to throw enough money at it. As it's insured anyway maybe the cost might not be as insurmountable as it might seem. It would be some comeback if they can pull it off. The alternative is to complete a new No 8???? The tooling is there. How quick could that be done?

 

 

To quote the recently deceased Bob Salmon, "the sponsors either want a win or a disaster".

 

The Vestas people already are perceived by me as a "can do, think on their feet" kind of company. If they pull this off I'll be convinced that they are a great company and I am sure that Joe public will be too..

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It will be interesting if they build a new 65, will the crew have any input into the non measured parts? Will it be a Volvo 65 MK II

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>

That boat is toast. The cost of salvage & rebuild at a reputable yard would be more than a new boat built at the factory where they have all the tooling & the process & procedure down pat.

 

Be great if the could get some parts of it like the rig but I doubt that will happen unless the insurance is responsible for getting it back to safe harbour & they can buy it back.

 

You'd never want to re-use that rig. Can you imagine the shockloading from hitting the bricks big waves at that speed?

.

.....fixed^^,,wouldn't want to use a well proven used mast like that. :wacko:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So, you would re-use the wings from a crashed airplane too, I guess. Idiot. I'll tell you what - if they salvage the mast and re-use it, I'll donate AUD 1K to a charity of your choice. Feel free to call me on it. You don't even have to offer to reciprocate.

 

I will say that the mere fact that the mast is still standing in one piece is testament to design and construction (as is the fact that the hull didn't disintegrate on impact - as Estar said earlier), but that doesn't mean it's good to re-use.

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It wouldn't be just for the last leg. There are a lot of legs left, with the schedule being loaded up with shorter legs toward the end.

 

Here's the days between today (December 2, 2014) and the start of the next 5 legs:

 

* 30 days until Leg 3 start (Abu Dhabi to Sanya -- 6 legs remaining)

* 66 days until Leg 4 start (Sanya to Auckland -- 5 legs remaining)

* 101 days until Leg 5 start (Auckland to Itajai -- 4 legs remaining)

* 136 days until Leg 6 start (Itajai to Newport -- 3 legs remaining)

* 164 days until Leg 7 start (Newport to Lisbon -- 2 legs remaining)

 

Toward the end of the list, I'd think those starts are totally doable with a new-built boat, at least from a project-management standpoint, assuming the money is there.

 

 

It'd be dramatic. It'd be interesting. _I'd_ sure watch it.

.

 

... I'll take leg 5 for $50,jb..

 

....leg 4 for $80 if the tooling and workforce haven't moved too farr

 

....leg 3 for $150 if a hull is already mostly built like I told them to :rolleyes:

 

 

 

To quote the recently deceased Bob Salmon, "the sponsors either want a win or a disaster".

 

The Vestas people already are perceived by me as a "can do, think on their feet" kind of company. If they pull this off I'll be convinced.

.

 

....I'm pretty sure they know what... 'b.o.a.t.' and 's.p.e.e.d.' mean :)

 

 

......$pend Prettymuch Everything Everyone Demand$ :)

 

....or perhaps they were smart enough to have insurance on their ROI

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So, you would re-use the wings from a crashed airplane too, I guess. Idiot. I'll tell you what - if they salvage the mast and re-use it, I'll donate AUD 1K to a charity of your choice. Feel free to call me on it. You don't even have to offer to reciprocate.

 

I will say that the mere fact that the mast is still standing in one piece is testament to design and construction (as is the fact that the hull didn't disintegrate on impact - as Estar said earlier), but that doesn't mean it's good to re-use.

.

 

.....I guess I'd resemble the comment if I was planning on recycling airplane wings or if the spar takes any direct impacts with items harder than it has so far <_<

 

...but otherwise I'll quote you for posteriority.

 

...do you want to qualify what counts as 're-use' of the mast...will 'flagpole' do? :P

 

 

...in any case with Vestas' recent statement,it sounds like game-ON,,in many more ways than a boatrace :)

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Without a single injury onboard, I think the mast may have been spared as well.

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Without a single injury onboard, I think the mast may have been spared as well.

.

...all depends on how they get it out of there....I'd suggest some extra shipping insurance :rolleyes:

 

 

...I think I'll be following this one close! :D

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So, you would re-use the wings from a crashed airplane too, I guess. Idiot. I'll tell you what - if they salvage the mast and re-use it, I'll donate AUD 1K to a charity of your choice. Feel free to call me on it. You don't even have to offer to reciprocate.

 

I will say that the mere fact that the mast is still standing in one piece is testament to design and construction (as is the fact that the hull didn't disintegrate on impact - as Estar said earlier), but that doesn't mean it's good to re-use.

.

 

.....I guess I'd resemble the comment if I was planning on recycling airplane wings or if the spar takes any direct impacts with items harder than it has so far <_<

 

...but otherwise I'll quote you for posteriority.

 

...do you want to qualify what counts as 're-use' of the mast...will 'flagpole' do? :P

 

 

...in any case with Vestas' recent statement,it sounds like game-ON,,in many more ways than a boatrace :)

"posteriority" ?? Are you calling me an ass?

 

Flagpole? Hmm - yes, I'd like to qualify "re-use" as installing the mast in another VO65 (or the same one, repaired) and racing it in an ocean leg of the Volvo race - this iteration or another.

 

I seriously doubt you'd find a crew prepared to set off using that mast - I know I wouldn't. But it still could make a nice flagpole ;)

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Do we know if Neil Cox or anyone from VOR is going out to check out the wreck in the coming days? Or will it be left entirely to salvage experts from here on in? Vestas is very much an enviro-oriented company, for sure they will get the thing out of there one way or another. I desperately hope it doesn't get the chainsaw program. The whole thing has been pretty distressing. I'd love to see them back in the race, somehow. Musto are selling Vestas kit, maybe all Team Vestas fans can buy a T-shirt and support the cause. 'Crowd fund' the finish of Boat 8 and get the boys back in the race!

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Do we know if Neil Cox or anyone from VOR is going out to check out the wreck in the coming days? Or will it be left entirely to salvage experts from here on in? Vestas is very much an enviro-oriented company, for sure they will get the thing out of there one way or another. I desperately hope it doesn't get the chainsaw program. The whole thing has been pretty distressing. I'd love to see them back in the race, somehow. Musto are selling Vestas kit, maybe all Team Vestas fans can buy a T-shirt and support the cause. 'Crowd fund' the finish of Boat 8 and get the boys back in the race!

.

 

....I know someone who'd pitch $1G if they use the old mast* :lol:

 

 

 

.......**though I suppose they'd be those extra small aussie $

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Do we know if Neil Cox or anyone from VOR is going out to check out the wreck in the coming days? Or will it be left entirely to salvage experts from here on in? Vestas is very much an enviro-oriented company, for sure they will get the thing out of there one way or another. I desperately hope it doesn't get the chainsaw program. The whole thing has been pretty distressing. I'd love to see them back in the race, somehow. Musto are selling Vestas kit, maybe all Team Vestas fans can buy a T-shirt and support the cause. 'Crowd fund' the finish of Boat 8 and get the boys back in the race!

 

Far cheaper and easier to build from scratch. May save some deck gear, sails but the structure is farked. Vestas is landfill.

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shit Comanche was built in four. A VO 65 should be a lot simpler.

.

 

...doable f'sure if most of the staff are available.

 

 

.......'work-in' time might be tough :mellow:

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shit Comanche was built in four. A VO 65 should be a lot simpler.

I assume you mean from the time the molds were done? Because there were guys working in Boothbay for slightly over a years time on that project.

 

I agree though that if the tooling is all there for the VO65 (which it should be) then they could bang one out fairly quickly considering.

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BTW, I think you have to give some credit to the boat design/build.

.

+1

 

A great point!

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Did VOR actually commence production on Number 8?

.

....haven't heard a word of that,,,but was 'suggesting' that after 7 was finished........here's hoping they 'listened' :rolleyes:

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Vestas has dealt with adversity before. From their webpage is a story of how their early wind turbines had a flaw in the blades, and discovering and fixing the problem took a year, during which time Vestas reimbursed their customers. When they figured out the problem, they decided to make the blades in house, to be in charge of the manufacture of these critical fiberglass components. The resulting changes boosted efficiency, so that when they returned to market, their turbines had a competitive advantage.

 

There are certainly parallels to be made between this story and Vestas' current predicament. I trust that Brian Carlin has some rather dramatic footage of the grounding, some harrowing moments on the reef, assessing the damage, the decision to abandon the ship, and the subsequent rescue efforts. Together with some in-person interviews of captain and crew, this team has little to distract them from creating an AMAZING multimedia presentation which could be aired at the subsequent ports of call for the VOR.

 

It could be the hit of the race village 66 days from now in Sanya, a port of entry into a country in dire need of alternative energy sources, if they are to be seen to be living up to recent carbon agreements with the US. And the angle of "if you don't build the blades carefully, they tend to disintegrate at high speed" could subtly push a country known to have manufacturing quality control problems to outsource much of the work or at least consult the world experts.

 

I'd go to a booth in a race village that dealt with a disaster, and would tolerate a certain amount of corporate history as the price of admission. I'd search out that vid online, and study it carefully if it helped me avoid reefs in the middle of the night with a storm raging. I'd end up learning about the company that is adept at dealing with adversity and turning it into a competitive advantage.

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Huh. Vestas got the attention of Wired.com http://www.wired.com/2014/12/team-vestas-wind-volvo-ocean-race/

 

Ken Read is quoted:

At first, each leg seems simple: It’s a race from one city to the next. But the fastest route—and that’s all that matters here—is rarely a straight line because weather and sea conditions are constantly changing. Your course from south to north is never from south to north,” says Ken Read, who twice skippered a team in the race, and is now president of North Sails, a sailmaking company.

Plotting routes is a bit more complicated than mapping your average road trip. Every six hours, each team downloads a big package of weather data from race headquarters (teams are not allowed direct Internet access). With that info and software called the velocity prediction program, which determines speed based on wind conditions, the skipper and navigator chart the course they consider fastest. The standard route “zigzags you all over the ocean, chasing weather, chasing storms, chasing whatever is out there that you can use to your advantage.” If the quickest route takes you through reefs or shallow water, you follow it, Read says. “There’s no such thing as being more careful,” he says. “You’re out there to win a race.”

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can someone confirm this story i heard way back in the day (IOR). the Maxi, Congers was doing the BA-Rio Race. to expedite immigrations at the finish, the executive BN took all the passports with him to meet the boat and clear the crew so the crew could get on with business at hand (partying). somewhere between the start and finish, the boat ran aground and the whole crew were jailed for illegal entry into a country since they did not have their passports with them!!!

Sounds like horse shit to me. Pretty sure it's international law that when you leave a country's boundaries by water that all crew's passports must be on board. I have most certainly never done it without all passports on board. I sailed with those guys for two seasons and the loss of the last boat was a topic of late night rail conversion on many occasions. No one ever mentioned any issues with passports. What did get mentioned time and time again were the absolutely heroic efforts of the boat captain. He swam a line ashore in 8 foot seas and rigged a rescue line to haul everyone ashore safely in the middle of the night. Also the owner, Bevin Koeppel, (may he RIP) despite being the oldest, frailest, (hip replacement, double heart bypass etc etc) insisted on being the last man off.

 

Apparently the scavenges were out there with demo saws etc before daybreak and had the thing pretty much gutted (including mast, boom, winches, engine etc) by dusk. Most felt more than a little suspicious by the scavengers incredible efficiency as the reason they grounded was that a major nearby lighthouse was not lit that night.

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can someone confirm this story i heard way back in the day (IOR). the Maxi, Congers was doing the BA-Rio Race. to expedite immigrations at the finish, the executive BN took all the passports with him to meet the boat and clear the crew so the crew could get on with business at hand (partying). somewhere between the start and finish, the boat ran aground and the whole crew were jailed for illegal entry into a country since they did not have their passports with them!!!

Sounds like horse shit to me. Pretty sure it's international law that when you leave a country's boundaries by water that all crew's passports must be on board. I have most certainly never done it without all passports on board. I sailed with those guys for two seasons and the loss of the last boat was a topic of late night rail conversion on many occasions. No one ever mentioned any issues with passports. What did get mentioned time and time again were the absolutely heroic efforts of the boat captain. He swam a line ashore in 8 foot seas and rigged a rescue line to haul everyone ashore safely in the middle of the night. Also the owner, Bevin Koeppel, (may he RIP) despite being the oldest, frailest, (hip replacement, double heart bypass etc etc) insisted on being the last man off.

 

Apparently the scavenges were out there with demo saws etc before daybreak and had the thing pretty much gutted (including mast, boom, winches, engine etc) by dusk. Most felt more than a little suspicious by the scavengers incredible efficiency as the reason they grounded was that a major nearby lighthouse was not lit that night.

thanks Abbo. always thought there not much to that story. i got to know Bevin through Bob Barton when i was working for Horizon Sails. trimmed main on the Ausie Maxi he bought before moving back home.

 

sorry everyone for high jacking this thread.

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Been reading a lot about "jobs which can't have failures" on this thread. I work in one of those in the medical field. Despite it being a "no failure" area people still die and they will continue because it's basically an idiotic comment.

 

Essentially: when people are involved, there will be occasions where human error causes a crap outcome. No matter where/what etc; that's the fact of the matter.

The risk minimisation approach to this is to improve systems to filter those out as much as possible, with the realisation that on occasion, all the holes in the filters will line up and the brown stuff will hit the (vestas manufactured?) rotating blades. That's the "swiss cheese model" people talk about. When that happens, or other random variables dump you in it regardless, you have drills to rescue the situation as well as possible-hence the evacuation drills taped to the bulkheads of VTR that you can see in the VO65 walkthrough vid.

 

Much has also been mentioned about what a good crew these guys are, with an undertone of disbelief that this happened to them of any of the teams. Interspersed with: "theyre muppets/numpties/should never crew again/need to be shot at dawn, etc" and other useful sentiment. Even the top people can make mistakes if the system is setup against them. Or better put: even the top people make mistakes, in a faulty system they end up in bad outcomes. Usually several mistakes conspire together to that outcome. Each one of those things should seem to be controllable: the fatigue management, the dual role of the navigator, communication, the way land masses vanish when you zoom out (that seems a glaring systems issue to my uneducated mind)-but when the holes line up-you end up in the poo.

 

Blatant disregard for the systems: putting you and others in situations of increased risk? Now: that's negligence.

 

Blame, recrimination, scapegoating...all make some people feel better but at the end of the day only serves to ruin a person who usually genuinely was trying their best and allows a broken system to continue. If this isn't looked into and the mechanisms that led to it addressed, it will happen again. No matter how good the teams are. After all-2 other teams alluded to luck that they realised late in the piece that they were shaving the shoals a little closely. To my mind this screams a systems issue.

 

This has happened to Vestas. Good, skilled professionals have made an error b/c they are human. Otherwise we'd have robots steering these thing and where's the fun in that? Following this disaster, they've clicked instantly into what appears to be an incredibly well managed crisis mode without loss of life or injury...and then they've gone back when it's safe to secure the environmentally damaging equipment from the boat. That displays monumental professionalism and planning. They didn't remember that by accident-someone planned this months ago, hoping never to need it. Unfortunately they did.

 

They're good sailors and good people. Good people fuck up bc they're human. They didn't plan on running aground, its unlikely to be a great outcome for them or the people depending on the team (sponsors/families etc). Though if properly managed, this could be turned into a success story of sorts.

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Been reading a lot about "jobs which can't have failures" on this thread. I work in one of those in the medical field. Despite it being a "no failure" area people still die and they will continue because it's basically an idiotic comment.

 

Essentially: when people are involved, there will be occasions where human error causes a crap outcome. No matter where/what etc; that's the fact of the matter.

The risk minimisation approach to this is to improve systems to filter those out as much as possible, with the realisation that on occasion, all the holes in the filters will line up and the brown stuff will hit the (vestas manufactured?) rotating blades. That's the "swiss cheese model" people talk about. When that happens, or other random variables dump you in it regardless, you have drills to rescue the situation as well as possible-hence the evacuation drills taped to the bulkheads of VTR that you can see in the VO65 walkthrough vid.

 

Much has also been mentioned about what a good crew these guys are, with an undertone of disbelief that this happened to them of any of the teams. Interspersed with: "theyre muppets/numpties/should never crew again/need to be shot at dawn, etc" and other useful sentiment. Even the top people can make mistakes if the system is setup against them. Or better put: even the top people make mistakes, in a faulty system they end up in bad outcomes. Usually several mistakes conspire together to that outcome. Each one of those things should seem to be controllable: the fatigue management, the dual role of the navigator, communication, the way land masses vanish when you zoom out (that seems a glaring systems issue to my uneducated mind)-but when the holes line up-you end up in the poo.

 

Blatant disregard for the systems: putting you and others in situations of increased risk? Now: that's negligence.

 

Blame, recrimination, scapegoating...all make some people feel better but at the end of the day only serves to ruin a person who usually genuinely was trying their best and allows a broken system to continue. If this isn't looked into and the mechanisms that led to it addressed, it will happen again. No matter how good the teams are. After all-2 other teams alluded to luck that they realised late in the piece that they were shaving the shoals a little closely. To my mind this screams a systems issue.

 

This has happened to Vestas. Good, skilled professionals have made an error b/c they are human. Otherwise we'd have robots steering these thing and where's the fun in that? Following this disaster, they've clicked instantly into what appears to be an incredibly well managed crisis mode without loss of life or injury...and then they've gone back when it's safe to secure the environmentally damaging equipment from the boat. That displays monumental professionalism and planning. They didn't remember that by accident-someone planned this months ago, hoping never to need it. Unfortunately they did.

 

They're good sailors and good people. Good people fuck up bc they're human. They didn't plan on running aground, its unlikely to be a great outcome for them or the people depending on the team (sponsors/families etc). Though if properly managed, this could be turned into a success story of sorts.

feel free to have that opinion! i have definatly another - the are clearly not good sailors and i repeat the skipper and navigator should go back to school. they are a new generation young navigator who probably never learnt /had to log his position on a paper chart every hour. this is a big fuckup and a mistake like this simply should never happen! expecially with a fully pro crew. i assume the root of the accident is to rely too much on modern technique and to have forgotten/or never learnt the basics of proper seamanship/navigation.

and just because most people here are very nice and maybe good friends one should still call this what it is...

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Lot of people saying both Chris and the navigator will never get a job again.? In fact this was on the front page of SA in the article. Just wondering if everybody shares that view..?

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Been reading a lot about "jobs which can't have failures" on this thread. I work in one of those in the medical field. Despite it being a "no failure" area people still die and they will continue because it's basically an idiotic comment.

 

Essentially: when people are involved, there will be occasions where human error causes a crap outcome. No matter where/what etc; that's the fact of the matter.

The risk minimisation approach to this is to improve systems to filter those out as much as possible, with the realisation that on occasion, all the holes in the filters will line up and the brown stuff will hit the (vestas manufactured?) rotating blades. That's the "swiss cheese model" people talk about. When that happens, or other random variables dump you in it regardless, you have drills to rescue the situation as well as possible-hence the evacuation drills taped to the bulkheads of VTR that you can see in the VO65 walkthrough vid.

 

Much has also been mentioned about what a good crew these guys are, with an undertone of disbelief that this happened to them of any of the teams. Interspersed with: "theyre muppets/numpties/should never crew again/need to be shot at dawn, etc" and other useful sentiment. Even the top people can make mistakes if the system is setup against them. Or better put: even the top people make mistakes, in a faulty system they end up in bad outcomes. Usually several mistakes conspire together to that outcome. Each one of those things should seem to be controllable: the fatigue management, the dual role of the navigator, communication, the way land masses vanish when you zoom out (that seems a glaring systems issue to my uneducated mind)-but when the holes line up-you end up in the poo.

 

Blatant disregard for the systems: putting you and others in situations of increased risk? Now: that's negligence.

 

Blame, recrimination, scapegoating...all make some people feel better but at the end of the day only serves to ruin a person who usually genuinely was trying their best and allows a broken system to continue. If this isn't looked into and the mechanisms that led to it addressed, it will happen again. No matter how good the teams are. After all-2 other teams alluded to luck that they realised late in the piece that they were shaving the shoals a little closely. To my mind this screams a systems issue.

 

This has happened to Vestas. Good, skilled professionals have made an error b/c they are human. Otherwise we'd have robots steering these thing and where's the fun in that? Following this disaster, they've clicked instantly into what appears to be an incredibly well managed crisis mode without loss of life or injury...and then they've gone back when it's safe to secure the environmentally damaging equipment from the boat. That displays monumental professionalism and planning. They didn't remember that by accident-someone planned this months ago, hoping never to need it. Unfortunately they did.

 

They're good sailors and good people. Good people fuck up bc they're human. They didn't plan on running aground, its unlikely to be a great outcome for them or the people depending on the team (sponsors/families etc). Though if properly managed, this could be turned into a success story of sorts.

feel free to have that opinion! i have definatly another - the are clearly not good sailors and i repeat the skipper and navigator should go back to school. they are a new generation young navigator who probably never learnt /had to log his position on a paper chart every hour. this is a big fuckup and a mistake like this simply should never happen! expecially with a fully pro crew. i assume the root of the accident is to rely too much on modern technique and to have forgotten/or never learnt the basics of proper seamanship/navigation.

and just because most people here are very nice and maybe good friends one should still call this what it is...

 

You can tell all that just from what you've seen so far? Wow.

 

Imagine what you'll know tomorrow.

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Its like expecting a Formula One driver not getting a job after a crush. Fact is both of them are too good to be overlooked in future. In fact their experience just got richer. If I mount a Volvo campaign(wish) Chris is the first one to get a call.

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^ Bollocks. I'd go to sea any day with a bloke like Chris Nicholson. If you wound up in the shit, for whatever reason, that experience he and his crew have just been through, would be re-assuring beyond belief. If there were 'mistakes made' - and it seems there were, people will learn from this shit. The software and technology people, the people at VOR race control that could have/should have known for some time, there looked to be a FUBAR on their hands for three hours, or whatever it was. The guys on the other boats, that went ... "whoa, fuck, that was close - maybe the guys behind ought to KNOW about this and keep an eye out for it".

 

I desperately want this story to have a good ending and I would love it, if somehow, some way, we'll see big blue back in this race. They were the team I was rooting for (still love saying that, as an Aussie), since they signed on to this edition. I ordered my fanboy Vestas t-shirt today from the Musto site, did you?

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feel free to have that opinion! i have definatly another - the are clearly not good sailors and i repeat the skipper and navigator should go back to school. they are a new generation young navigator who probably never learnt /had to log his position on a paper chart every hour. this is a big fuckup and a mistake like this simply should never happen! expecially with a fully pro crew. i assume the root of the accident is to rely too much on modern technique and to have forgotten/or never learnt the basics of proper seamanship/navigation.

and just because most people here are very nice and maybe good friends one should still call this what it is...

 

Clearly not good sailors? Whatever you are smoking you should share it around, that's some good stuff. Nico has won multiple world titles in the 505s and 49ers. He's done a couple of laps of the globe including 2nd overall with Camper in the last Volvo. If he's your idea of a shit sailor I'm struggling to imagine what someone would need to have done to be considered a rock star.

 

 

Lot of people saying both Chris and the navigator will never get a job again.? In fact this was on the front page of SA in the article. Just wondering if everybody shares that view..?

 

Pure A grade bullshit. The kind of people who hire guys like Nico and Wouter know better than to freak out over mistakes because everyone makes mistakes. It's what you do after the mistake that counts and I'm pretty sure that the Vestas crew have done all the right things since the accident.

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here's a shot of my Danish made globe(circa 1980), not quite the resolution you need at sea - and it also requires a 220v power source to light up, but will get you round the world.

 

Seriously though, mauritius is not that backward. It's probably the most visited 'island holiday' destination from south africa, with loads of 5 star hotels/resorts and the accompanying watersports. There has been at times a Mauritius to Durban yacht race too (with unfortunately a disaster of it's own, a sinking during the 2006 race). The problem here is that this is a 'governed' atoll of possibly minor importance to them in the grand scheme of things and the main island of mauritius is miles away (430km!). They are also quite savvy in terms of trade and are an import/export tarriff free zone offering tax breaks to companies basing themselves there (I'm sure there's a more eloquent way to say this, but essentially it's not some backward african despot running the place). - http://www.tourism-mauritius.mu/discover/

 

Speaking of environmental issues, I think the recovery of the boat is mainly to limit these tarnishing the sponsorship. Meanwhile this is the shocking status quo for other Indian ocean destinations - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/moslive/article-2162653/Maldives-island-paradise-Thilafushi-trashed-reduced-pile-rubbish.html

 

 

 

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Been reading a lot about "jobs which can't have failures" on this thread. I work in one of those in the medical field. Despite it being a "no failure" area people still die and they will continue because it's basically an idiotic comment.

 

Essentially: when people are involved, there will be occasions where human error causes a crap outcome. No matter where/what etc; that's the fact of the matter.

The risk minimisation approach to this is to improve systems to filter those out as much as possible, with the realisation that on occasion, all the holes in the filters will line up and the brown stuff will hit the (vestas manufactured?) rotating blades. That's the "swiss cheese model" people talk about. When that happens, or other random variables dump you in it regardless, you have drills to rescue the situation as well as possible-hence the evacuation drills taped to the bulkheads of VTR that you can see in the VO65 walkthrough vid.

 

Much has also been mentioned about what a good crew these guys are, with an undertone of disbelief that this happened to them of any of the teams. Interspersed with: "theyre muppets/numpties/should never crew again/need to be shot at dawn, etc" and other useful sentiment. Even the top people can make mistakes if the system is setup against them. Or better put: even the top people make mistakes, in a faulty system they end up in bad outcomes. Usually several mistakes conspire together to that outcome. Each one of those things should seem to be controllable: the fatigue management, the dual role of the navigator, communication, the way land masses vanish when you zoom out (that seems a glaring systems issue to my uneducated mind)-but when the holes line up-you end up in the poo.

 

Blatant disregard for the systems: putting you and others in situations of increased risk? Now: that's negligence.

 

Blame, recrimination, scapegoating...all make some people feel better but at the end of the day only serves to ruin a person who usually genuinely was trying their best and allows a broken system to continue. If this isn't looked into and the mechanisms that led to it addressed, it will happen again. No matter how good the teams are. After all-2 other teams alluded to luck that they realised late in the piece that they were shaving the shoals a little closely. To my mind this screams a systems issue.

 

This has happened to Vestas. Good, skilled professionals have made an error b/c they are human. Otherwise we'd have robots steering these thing and where's the fun in that? Following this disaster, they've clicked instantly into what appears to be an incredibly well managed crisis mode without loss of life or injury...and then they've gone back when it's safe to secure the environmentally damaging equipment from the boat. That displays monumental professionalism and planning. They didn't remember that by accident-someone planned this months ago, hoping never to need it. Unfortunately they did.

 

They're good sailors and good people. Good people fuck up bc they're human. They didn't plan on running aground, its unlikely to be a great outcome for them or the people depending on the team (sponsors/families etc). Though if properly managed, this could be turned into a success story of sorts.

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feel free to have that opinion! i have definatly another - the are clearly not good sailors and i repeat the skipper and navigator should go back to school. they are a new generation young navigator who probably never learnt /had to log his position on a paper chart every hour. this is a big fuckup and a mistake like this simply should never happen! expecially with a fully pro crew. i assume the root of the accident is to rely too much on modern technique and to have forgotten/or never learnt the basics of proper seamanship/navigation.

and just because most people here are very nice and maybe good friends one should still call this what it is...

 

Clearly not good sailors? Whatever you are smoking you should share it around, that's some good stuff. Nico has won multiple world titles in the 505s and 49ers. He's done a couple of laps of the globe including 2nd overall with Camper in the last Volvo. If he's your idea of a shit sailor I'm struggling to imagine what someone would need to have done to be considered a rock star.

 

 

>Lot of people saying both Chris and the navigator will never get a job again.? In fact this was on the front page of SA in the article. Just wondering if everybody shares that view..?

 

Pure A grade bullshit. The kind of people who hire guys like Nico and Wouter know better than to freak out over mistakes because everyone makes mistakes. It's what you do after the mistake that counts and I'm pretty sure that the Vestas crew have done all the right things since the accident.

 

I think Nico will have had the time sitting on that Isle in the middle of nowhere to become better for the accident. Just wondering if ran over a bunch of chinamen before he went sailing? That's some serious bad luck. I know I have made one or 2 navigational mistakes but it's what you learn from them that makes you better.

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@supine of course they are great sailors in terms of going fast - they are the best in the world - my point is the are great racers but not great in seamanship - not their fault - its a new time and a new way of ocean racing....i find it unbelievable that they only have one or two realy large scale paper charts on board - i read it somewhere here in the forum - if this is true it qualifies in my opinion as gross negligence alone....i know you guys mostly disagree - but i have skippered and navigatored many deliveries and ocean races and i would never not put my position on a paper chart every hour - write a proper logbook brief the watch captain and look very closly along the prospective rhumpline...ofcourse even then one can run aground and i have run aground before - BUT to hit a 20 mile long chartered reef at full speed and not having altered course three hours before.....come on guys....especially as on a fully pro boat at least two or thre people should cross check their respective navigation....

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@supine of course they are great sailors in terms of going fast - they are the best in the world - my point is the are great racers but not great in seamanship - not their fault - its a new time and a new way of ocean racing....i find it unbelievable that they only have one or two realy large scale paper charts on board - i read it somewhere here in the forum - if this is true it qualifies in my opinion as gross negligence alone....i know you guys mostly disagree - but i have skippered and navigatored many deliveries and ocean races and i would never not put my position on a paper chart every hour - write a proper logbook brief the watch captain and look very closly along the prospective rhumpline...ofcourse even then one can run aground and i have run aground before - BUT to hit a 20 mile long chartered reef at full speed and not having altered course three hours before.....come on guys....especially as on a fully pro boat at least two or thre people should cross check their respective navigation....

 

I don't get it, you tell us how it's supposed to be done and then admit to running aground. So your foolproof methods of navigation are actually fucking bullshit.

 

And if you want to talk seamanship, let's talk about the large gonads on Nico doing things like swimming around underwater in the bilge of a sinking boat trying to hook up the pumps to batteries, bypassing the screwed electrical panel (http://www.sailing.org/news/21245.php).

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Let's be specific here. Navigating a successful Volvo Ocean Race team to victory is hard. Few here would know their ass from a hole in the ground with respect thereto. Navigating a Volvo Ocean race boat to avoid clearly marked reefs requires nothing more than $25.00 cell phone software and a semblance of paying attention not even required to drive a car.

 

Proximity alerts are really irrelevant. They are nice features, but this is a professional race team. Someone is supposed to be actively engaged 24/7.

 

Do you remember that family on the Lagoon 50 something that sailed into the reef somewhere in the south pacific? The parents were asleep in their cabin while the kids were watching a movie. They motor sailed right into a reef. The father lost a leg from a gash when the rigging broke free. It was a terrible, horrifying tragedy - no doubt. But there is nothing wrong with saying that perhaps the parents should not have just left the boat with no watch, etc.

 

was planning on taking some kids surfing the day their friends showed up to stay for a while in Papeete, friends shocked and quite. didn't find out for a couple of days they were watching movie, did a quick jibe in fluky airs and came below to finish the movie without a chart check. broke up slowly on the reef. remembered at once when i read the news. very sad . since then i set a quick route off the bow, zoom in, and cruise down it. every course change even mid ocean. just to be sure to be sure

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Maybe Paul Larsen's new boat will be available.

Apart from the fact that the new boat will have almost no relationship to a V65, what makes you think he'd lend it to them??

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@supine of course they are great sailors in terms of going fast - they are the best in the world - my point is the are great racers but not great in seamanship - not their fault - its a new time and a new way of ocean racing....i find it unbelievable that they only have one or two realy large scale paper charts on board - i read it somewhere here in the forum - if this is true it qualifies in my opinion as gross negligence alone....i know you guys mostly disagree - but i have skippered and navigatored many deliveries and ocean races and i would never not put my position on a paper chart every hour - write a proper logbook brief the watch captain and look very closly along the prospective rhumpline...ofcourse even then one can run aground and i have run aground before - BUT to hit a 20 mile long chartered reef at full speed and not having altered course three hours before.....come on guys....especially as on a fully pro boat at least two or thre people should cross check their respective navigation....

I've got to ask - who on earth are you? Your opinions differ so far from everyone elses (mine included) that I'm begining to get fascinated. We've plainly got a lot to learn from a sage like yourself, not least of which where we get to 'look closely at the prospective rhumpline'.

In fact, if you'd kindly send me your sailing CV, I'd happily hire you - it would save me having to pay for my insurance policy anymore - simply wouldn't be needed.

Shame no one else would want to sail with us though....

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Give it 5 years & you'll be lucky to be able to buy a chart. Sad as that may be.

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Been reading a lot about "jobs which can't have failures" on this thread. I work in one of those in the medical field. Despite it being a "no failure" area people still die and they will continue because it's basically an idiotic comment.

 

Essentially: when people are involved, there will be occasions where human error causes a crap outcome. No matter where/what etc; that's the fact of the matter.

The risk minimisation approach to this is to improve systems to filter those out as much as possible, with the realisation that on occasion, all the holes in the filters will line up and the brown stuff will hit the (vestas manufactured?) rotating blades. That's the "swiss cheese model" people talk about. When that happens, or other random variables dump you in it regardless, you have drills to rescue the situation as well as possible-hence the evacuation drills taped to the bulkheads of VTR that you can see in the VO65 walkthrough vid.

 

Much has also been mentioned about what a good crew these guys are, with an undertone of disbelief that this happened to them of any of the teams. Interspersed with: "theyre muppets/numpties/should never crew again/need to be shot at dawn, etc" and other useful sentiment. Even the top people can make mistakes if the system is setup against them. Or better put: even the top people make mistakes, in a faulty system they end up in bad outcomes. Usually several mistakes conspire together to that outcome. Each one of those things should seem to be controllable: the fatigue management, the dual role of the navigator, communication, the way land masses vanish when you zoom out (that seems a glaring systems issue to my uneducated mind)-but when the holes line up-you end up in the poo.

 

Blatant disregard for the systems: putting you and others in situations of increased risk? Now: that's negligence.

 

Blame, recrimination, scapegoating...all make some people feel better but at the end of the day only serves to ruin a person who usually genuinely was trying their best and allows a broken system to continue. If this isn't looked into and the mechanisms that led to it addressed, it will happen again. No matter how good the teams are. After all-2 other teams alluded to luck that they realised late in the piece that they were shaving the shoals a little closely. To my mind this screams a systems issue.

 

This has happened to Vestas. Good, skilled professionals have made an error b/c they are human. Otherwise we'd have robots steering these thing and where's the fun in that? Following this disaster, they've clicked instantly into what appears to be an incredibly well managed crisis mode without loss of life or injury...and then they've gone back when it's safe to secure the environmentally damaging equipment from the boat. That displays monumental professionalism and planning. They didn't remember that by accident-someone planned this months ago, hoping never to need it. Unfortunately they did.

 

They're good sailors and good people. Good people fuck up bc they're human. They didn't plan on running aground, its unlikely to be a great outcome for them or the people depending on the team (sponsors/families etc). Though if properly managed, this could be turned into a success story of sorts.

Perfectly stated

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@rigo funny...dont you find it strange to hit an island at full speed? a 20 mile wide island and you you have not altered course before for 3 hours? the most realistic explanation for this is that they simply did not know that there is an island in front of them....

 

And what does this tells us? It tells us that a professional navigator and his skipper have not looked in their charts.......

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Its like expecting a Formula One driver not getting a job after a crush. Fact is both of them are too good to be overlooked in future. In fact their experience just got richer. If I mount a Volvo campaign(wish) Chris is the first one to get a call.

 

I think yours is a great post. These guys were already top class. Now they know what it feels like to get punched in the nose and kicked in the teeth.

 

They were on the back foot from the get go trying to cobble together an entry always to be short on budget and time. They were off the pace and objective about working to improve - to make it a race. Then driving the boat up on a reef in paradise for a total loss...

 

Imagine how they feel?

 

I shudder thinking about how bad they feel about losing the boat & being out of the race. And THAT is exactly why we will see these men succeed time and time again in their lives.

 

My $ is on this crew next go around. So happy no one was hurt - but look out for a team with something to prove this littered with talent.

 

“I missed 9,000 shots in my career, I’ve lost almost 300 games, 26 times I’ve been trusted with game winning shot and I missed. I failed over and over and over and over again in my life and this is why I succeeded.”

- Michael Jordan,

NBA 6 time World Champion “

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Its like expecting a Formula One driver not getting a job after a crush. Fact is both of them are too good to be overlooked in future. In fact their experience just got richer. If I mount a Volvo campaign(wish) Chris is the first one to get a call.

 

I think yours is a great post. These guys were already top class. Now they know what it feels like to get punched in the nose and kicked in the teeth.

 

They were on the back foot from the get go trying to cobble together an entry always to be short on budget and time. They were off the pace and objective about working to improve - to make it a race. Then driving the boat up on a reef in paradise for a total loss...

 

Imagine how they feel?

 

I shudder thinking about how bad they feel about losing the boat & being out of the race. And THAT is exactly why we will see these men succeed time and time again in their lives.

 

My $ is on this crew next go around. So happy no one was hurt - but look out for a team with something to prove this littered with talent.

 

“I missed 9,000 shots in my career, I’ve lost almost 300 games, 26 times I’ve been trusted with game winning shot and I missed. I failed over and over and over and over again in my life and this is why I succeeded.”

- Michael Jordan,

NBA 6 time World Champion “

 

Why did the Formula One driver crash? To avoid a spinning car in front of him, or because he was texting?

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Team Vestas Wind possibly did made a mistake, or maybe have tech failure… we’ll just have to all wait it out for the full post-mortem. They’ve have had rotten luck for sure.

 

The great news no loss of life, even if it’s caused a dent in the teams ego and pride. Alvimedica’s hold local station till the main danger crisis was over is admirable for sure, and proves the true co-operative nature of sailing, at whatever level… and why we like to keep an eye out for our shipmates as well as ourselves.

If the collision was at 19 knots at 15:10 GMT, then +4hrs - for the zone it happened in - can’t see how this was a crash in the dead-dark-of-night … or am I missing something? Dusk maybe…

 

They are no way the first race crew to run aground, nor will they sadly be the last.

 

Shit does happen, especially when sleep deprived, adrenalin running ragged… plus those kinda fast boat speeds guarantees that WTSHTF… you need super-sharp wits about you to keep it all on the straight and narrow.

 

 

Someone earlier on this thread mentioned back-up paper charts… on a minimal salon space, permanently damp wet and uber cramped carbon 21st Cen’ race boat set-up…. you’re havin’ a larf surely?

 

I also know from personal experienced on an HR42, when sailing into the tight natural bay harbour that is Vathi, on the isle of Sifnos in the Greek Cyclades… The GARMIN plotter showed us clearing driving up the physical shoreline… when we were anything but. I’m guessing the chart accuracy at that point was 20m out, at least.

 

If we’d been coming in dead of night… could have been a very different outcome. Nowhere else on that months cruise trip was the digital chart-plotter that inaccurate to this extent again, go figure…?

 

And that’s the problem, with the reliability of electronics today, tis easy to be lazy and always take them as bang-on-accurate gospel…

But then which one of us performs 100% all of the time? Which is why an optimal crew mix sees everyone watching each other’s backs…

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Been reading a lot about "jobs which can't have failures" on this thread. I work in one of those in the medical field. Despite it being a "no failure" area people still die and they will continue because it's basically an idiotic comment.

 

Essentially: when people are involved, there will be occasions where human error causes a crap outcome. No matter where/what etc; that's the fact of the matter.

The risk minimisation approach to this is to improve systems to filter those out as much as possible, with the realisation that on occasion, all the holes in the filters will line up and the brown stuff will hit the (vestas manufactured?) rotating blades. That's the "swiss cheese model" people talk about. When that happens, or other random variables dump you in it regardless, you have drills to rescue the situation as well as possible-hence the evacuation drills taped to the bulkheads of VTR that you can see in the VO65 walkthrough vid.

 

Much has also been mentioned about what a good crew these guys are, with an undertone of disbelief that this happened to them of any of the teams. Interspersed with: "theyre muppets/numpties/should never crew again/need to be shot at dawn, etc" and other useful sentiment. Even the top people can make mistakes if the system is setup against them. Or better put: even the top people make mistakes, in a faulty system they end up in bad outcomes. Usually several mistakes conspire together to that outcome. Each one of those things should seem to be controllable: the fatigue management, the dual role of the navigator, communication, the way land masses vanish when you zoom out (that seems a glaring systems issue to my uneducated mind)-but when the holes line up-you end up in the poo.

 

Blatant disregard for the systems: putting you and others in situations of increased risk? Now: that's negligence.

 

Blame, recrimination, scapegoating...all make some people feel better but at the end of the day only serves to ruin a person who usually genuinely was trying their best and allows a broken system to continue. If this isn't looked into and the mechanisms that led to it addressed, it will happen again. No matter how good the teams are. After all-2 other teams alluded to luck that they realised late in the piece that they were shaving the shoals a little closely. To my mind this screams a systems issue.

 

This has happened to Vestas. Good, skilled professionals have made an error b/c they are human. Otherwise we'd have robots steering these thing and where's the fun in that? Following this disaster, they've clicked instantly into what appears to be an incredibly well managed crisis mode without loss of life or injury...and then they've gone back when it's safe to secure the environmentally damaging equipment from the boat. That displays monumental professionalism and planning. They didn't remember that by accident-someone planned this months ago, hoping never to need it. Unfortunately they did.

 

They're good sailors and good people. Good people fuck up bc they're human. They didn't plan on running aground, its unlikely to be a great outcome for them or the people depending on the team (sponsors/families etc). Though if properly managed, this could be turned into a success story of sorts.

 

I've been reading most of the posts in this topic with ever growing amazement; what a terrible bunch of knowitalls (who've probably never 'been there' or 'done that'). I'm pleased to read some people (matttnz included) have a more realistic opinion. Soooo: +1!

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Been reading a lot about "jobs which can't have failures" on this thread. I work in one of those in the medical field. Despite it being a "no failure" area people still die and they will continue because it's basically an idiotic comment.

 

Essentially: when people are involved, there will be occasions where human error causes a crap outcome. No matter where/what etc; that's the fact of the matter.

The risk minimisation approach to this is to improve systems to filter those out as much as possible, with the realisation that on occasion, all the holes in the filters will line up and the brown stuff will hit the (vestas manufactured?) rotating blades. That's the "swiss cheese model" people talk about. When that happens, or other random variables dump you in it regardless, you have drills to rescue the situation as well as possible-hence the evacuation drills taped to the bulkheads of VTR that you can see in the VO65 walkthrough vid.

 

Much has also been mentioned about what a good crew these guys are, with an undertone of disbelief that this happened to them of any of the teams. Interspersed with: "theyre muppets/numpties/should never crew again/need to be shot at dawn, etc" and other useful sentiment. Even the top people can make mistakes if the system is setup against them. Or better put: even the top people make mistakes, in a faulty system they end up in bad outcomes. Usually several mistakes conspire together to that outcome. Each one of those things should seem to be controllable: the fatigue management, the dual role of the navigator, communication, the way land masses vanish when you zoom out (that seems a glaring systems issue to my uneducated mind)-but when the holes line up-you end up in the poo.

 

Blatant disregard for the systems: putting you and others in situations of increased risk? Now: that's negligence.

 

Blame, recrimination, scapegoating...all make some people feel better but at the end of the day only serves to ruin a person who usually genuinely was trying their best and allows a broken system to continue. If this isn't looked into and the mechanisms that led to it addressed, it will happen again. No matter how good the teams are. After all-2 other teams alluded to luck that they realised late in the piece that they were shaving the shoals a little closely. To my mind this screams a systems issue.

 

This has happened to Vestas. Good, skilled professionals have made an error b/c they are human. Otherwise we'd have robots steering these thing and where's the fun in that? Following this disaster, they've clicked instantly into what appears to be an incredibly well managed crisis mode without loss of life or injury...and then they've gone back when it's safe to secure the environmentally damaging equipment from the boat. That displays monumental professionalism and planning. They didn't remember that by accident-someone planned this months ago, hoping never to need it. Unfortunately they did.

 

They're good sailors and good people. Good people fuck up bc they're human. They didn't plan on running aground, its unlikely to be a great outcome for them or the people depending on the team (sponsors/families etc). Though if properly managed, this could be turned into a success story of sorts.

Perfectly stated

 

I'm a navigator, and i don't agree - at least if i understand what the point is, because it's a bit unclear.

 

to call it just a "systems issue" is insufficient.

 

actual responsibility for the mistake needs to be assigned to actual people.

 

We may never know the full story:

who was on watch, who was awake?

was the presence of this reef known to the captain/navigator, and was it discussed with the crew in the days/hours before the wreck?

if the captain and/or navigator were not on watch/awake, when did they go toff watch/to sleep?

If the captain/navigator were not on watch/awake, what were the last instructions given by either of them?

 

and plenty of other questions..., I kind of doubt we will get that level of specificity in the story.., but we'll see.

 

anyway, it seems impossible for the captain to avoid ultimate responsibility.

 

as far as the navigator goes.., pretty much the same.., but his responsibility could be mitigated if it turned out he had discussed this reef with the crew in the hours and days leading up to the wreck, and then said something like "Ok, I need a rest.., sail on this course for about 30 min and then gybe, so we don't don't hit that reef I've been telling you about. Then, after the gybe, someone needs to go below and look at the new course on the computer to make sure we will be clear.., if you have any questions, wake me up."

 

As for myself.., on ocean races,I am pretty much always awake for important gybes/tacks

 

but - if it's situation of sailing for a long time inside the gybing angles, i may say "we'ere sailing downwind - sail fast on the favored tack, use your judgement, but think about gybing anytime you are lifted by 10deg and it seems to be lasting - I'm going to sleep, wake me if you have any questions."

 

On coastal races the navigator basically has to delegate responsibility for keeping of the bricks, and dealing with traffic to the WC's, or he/she will never sleep

 

on ocean races, where the danger of grounding is not so constant.., I as navigator would certainly be awake managing every close approach to land, and the maneuvers needed to avoid land.

 

my own view is that it is highly unlikely that the responsibility of the navigator will be substantially mitigated in this incident

 

Information needed to answer the question of how far down the chain of command any responsibility ultimately settles, may never be made public in any official way.

 

but we'll see...

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Its like expecting a Formula One driver not getting a job after a crush. Fact is both of them are too good to be overlooked in future. In fact their experience just got richer. If I mount a Volvo campaign(wish) Chris is the first one to get a call.

 

I think yours is a great post. These guys were already top class. Now they know what it feels like to get punched in the nose and kicked in the teeth.

 

They were on the back foot from the get go trying to cobble together an entry always to be short on budget and time. They were off the pace and objective about working to improve - to make it a race. Then driving the boat up on a reef in paradise for a total loss...

 

Imagine how they feel?

 

I shudder thinking about how bad they feel about losing the boat & being out of the race. And THAT is exactly why we will see these men succeed time and time again in their lives.

 

My $ is on this crew next go around. So happy no one was hurt - but look out for a team with something to prove this littered with talent.

 

“I missed 9,000 shots in my career, I’ve lost almost 300 games, 26 times I’ve been trusted with game winning shot and I missed. I failed over and over and over and over again in my life and this is why I succeeded.”

- Michael Jordan,

NBA 6 time World Champion “

 

Why did the Formula One driver crash? To avoid a spinning car in front of him, or because he was texting?

For sure it was a human error, but no way you can compare it to texting while driving! Focus on every little detail which can make a difference on result simply drifts some very base layers of their mind out of the radar in unfortunately critical moment.

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Its like expecting a Formula One driver not getting a job after a crush. Fact is both of them are too good to be overlooked in future. In fact their experience just got richer. If I mount a Volvo campaign(wish) Chris is the first one to get a call.

 

I think yours is a great post. These guys were already top class. Now they know what it feels like to get punched in the nose and kicked in the teeth.

 

They were on the back foot from the get go trying to cobble together an entry always to be short on budget and time. They were off the pace and objective about working to improve - to make it a race. Then driving the boat up on a reef in paradise for a total loss...

 

Imagine how they feel?

 

I shudder thinking about how bad they feel about losing the boat & being out of the race. And THAT is exactly why we will see these men succeed time and time again in their lives.

 

My $ is on this crew next go around. So happy no one was hurt - but look out for a team with something to prove this littered with talent.

 

“I missed 9,000 shots in my career, I’ve lost almost 300 games, 26 times I’ve been trusted with game winning shot and I missed. I failed over and over and over and over again in my life and this is why I succeeded.”

- Michael Jordan,

NBA 6 time World Champion “

 

Why did the Formula One driver crash? To avoid a spinning car in front of him, or because he was texting?

For sure it was a human error, but no way you can compare it to texting while driving! Focus on every little detail which can make a difference on result simply drifts some very base layers of their mind out of the radar in unfortunately critical moment.

 

Perhaps it wouldn't rise to the level of recklessness of texting during a formula one race, but it is probably worse than texting and driving a car in ordinary traffic. We need no "experts" to weigh in on this issue. This issue is relevant to any average joe weekender powerboater. If you don't want to cause serious damage to your boat and/or injury to your crew, beware of hitting the hard stuff that lurks below the surface. The tools to avoid this incident are available to anyone with a cellphone and a few minutes per hour to do a quick check. These boats are going "fast" relative to the 5 knot shitboxes out there, but few outside of sailing would call 20 or 30 mph fast. All it takes is a few minutes per hour to see if there is anything within 20 or 30 miles to be concerned with.

 

That they missed that basic concept is shocking. You would even expect, at this level, for the crew to be on the lookout for UNCHARTED reefs let alone charted ones. Depth sounder alarm, etc. Not saying that can be relied on in place of looking at the charts once in a while, but it is a tool in the tool box. "Hey skip, why is the depthsounder showing 450 ft out here in the middle of nowhere?"

 

I am not asking that they be crucified or even have their faces rubbed in this. A simple "this is the kind of thing that shouldn't happen" is enough. Because it is the kind of thing that shouldn't happen, and every boater should know that.

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Why did the Formula One driver crash? To avoid a spinning car in front of him, or because he was texting?

For sure it was a human error, but no way you can compare it to texting while driving! Focus on every little detail which can make a difference on result simply drifts some very base layers of their mind out of the radar in unfortunately critical moment.

 

Hmmm, have you guys seen an F1 steering wheel, lately?

 

"Texting while driving" is not all that far from the reality, actually...

 

:-))

 

 

d13chn246.jpg

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Why did the Formula One driver crash? To avoid a spinning car in front of him, or because he was texting?

 

Mostly because he was too fast for the respective situation (negligence? human error certainly) or due to a technical failure.

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Nothing wrong with texting while driving, if you turn on voice recognition, and do it in a sensible spot.

 

Nothing wrong with texting while driving, if you turn on voice recognition, and do it in a sensible spot.

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Healthcare is learning that destroying careers over medical errors is counterproductive. Too much time and energy invested in the practitioners to "throw them out" with the bathwater. It causes other practitioners to avoid reporting errors, so systems are not scrutinized for pitfalls, and the "sadder but wiser" practitioner often develops a more careful practice style that makes them a safer practitioner than their arrogant "it can't happen to me" colleague.

 

A corrective plan, which in our department usually includes an educational lecture to the group +/- additional training or surveillance, educates the individual and the group to the nature of the flaws in the system and is not overly punitive. This hopefully makes the department stronger, safer and more aware of reality and enabled to predict and prevent similar probs.

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That boat is toast. The cost of salvage & rebuild at a reputable yard would be more than a new boat built at the factory where they have all the tooling & the process & procedure down pat.

 

Be great if the could get some parts of it like the rig but I doubt that will happen unless the insurance is responsible for getting it back to safe harbour & they can buy it back.

 

You'd never want to re-use that rig. Can you imagine the shockloading from hitting the bricks at that speed?

Somebody on that island is getting a kick ass flagpole.

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