Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

PaulinVictoria

Team Vestas grounded

Recommended Posts

In recent years, incidents of this magnitude have resulted in formal inquiries, detailed facts and interviews and ultimately a comprehensive report is published on the internet (Aegean, Flinders Island, Low Speed Chase, Rambler 100, etc.) by RYA, ISAF, US Sailing. All but the Rambler 100 incident resulted in fatalities. The level of negligence and stupidity was clearly documented on all but Rambler 100, and the level of professionalism and good survival skills was clearly documented in the Rambler 100 report.

 

The Vestas incident is high profile enough that we can most likely be assured of a full report with details as it will be a great learning experience of what not to do so that lives are saved in the future. It is actually an incredible opportunity for the VOR to do the right thing, and it is an AMAZING gain for Vestas. A brand name that would be forgotten in a year or two will now live on forever and be published in books, web sites etc. You can't buy this type of history making event. Once the dust settles, the marketing people from Vestas will realized the number of impressions gained from this is massive.

 

There is no news................ like bad news.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nicholson is a twice-Olympian, who is one of the most experienced off-shore sailors in the world. He said that a ‘mistake’ had been responsible for the collision with the reef, but did not elaborate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would assume they want the helmsman concentrating 100% on boatspeed. I sure as hell hope SOMEONE has the big picture on each watch, but it may well not be the guy on the wheel.

 

 

I guess I'm missing something in this discussion. The discussion of how this happened keeps going back to the navigator and the skipper in a mostly 'ultimate responsibility' bent, which is fine.

I'm more curious as to how watch changes occur at this level of sailing and who's looking at the big picture on any given watch. In the very amateur racing and mostly cruising that I've done at every watch change off-going and oncoming go over plots, position, charts (paper and electronic), logs, etc... along with coffee, sandwiches, powerbars and the like. I.e. everyone who's going to drive the boat is brought fully up to speed before going on watch and taking the helm. Is it not that way in a VOR style race? Are the helmspersons instructions really to just drive course X and see ya in 4 hours? I guess what I'm saying is that if I'm sailing with 6 people who are actually sailing the boat then I'm used to having 6 people looking at navs, charts, course, etc... Not so in a VOR type event?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nicholson is a twice-Olympian, who is one of the most experienced off-shore sailors in the world. He said that a ‘mistake’ had been responsible for the collision with the reef, but did not elaborate.

 

No shit Dick Tracy

 

In time the story will come

 

(Comment directed at original reporter not you Clean)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks Kack. That was from the VOR official release out an hour ago and I reported on it because it was the actual first admission he's made, so it stands out to me. Here's the rest:

 

ALICANTE, Spain, December 2 – Chris Nicholson’s stranded Team Vestas Wind crew are finally on their way back to civilisation after two days sitting on a remote ‘sand pit’ in the Indian Ocean, where there was a risk of shark encounters.

The Volvo Ocean Race team dramatically grounded their boat after ploughing into a reef on St Brandon archipelago on Saturday at 19 knots and were forced to abandon it in the early hours of the following day, before wading through knee-deep water to a dry position.

They were then picked up by a coastguard boat from the nearby Íle du Sud, an almost deserted islet, with no communications with the outside world.

The islet is serviced weekly by a 20-metre fishing vessel, called 'Eliza', from Mauritius, which is some 430 kilometres away to the south-west. A trip to the holiday island takes more than a day to complete.

Australian skipper Nicholson’s nine-strong team finally were on their way after taking the ‘Eliza’ on Tuesday. From there, they plan to fly to Abu Dhabi at the end of the week.

Neil Cox, the team’s shore crew chief, told volvooceanrace.com on Tuesday: “We’ve had nine guys sitting on a sand pit in the middle of the Indian Ocean.

“You’d think it’s a bad movie. You sit there and talk to the coast guard and they’re telling us about everything we’re dealing with on the technical side, then they’re asking me to warn the guys that the reef is riddled full of sharks and barracuda and God knows what else.”

He added: “They’re telling me about a fisherman they found out there, who’d been basically mauled by a barracuda and there was barely much left of him to deal with.

“You’re sitting there, going, yeah, well, next time I talk to Nico (Nicholson) I might remind him that if they are wading out there in the reef, to keep their eyes open.”

The team will arrive in Mauritius mid-morning on Wednesday with literally the clothes they have on their backs, Cox said.

“We want to make sure that even the simple things are covered; a clean T-shirt, undies, a toothbrush, a bit of food,” he said.

“The coast guard here did a flyover yesterday and they parachuted in cans of Coke, chocolate and cookies.

“I don’t think people can totally appreciate how remote this place is. We saw there’s a coast guard out there; it’s literally a tool shed in someone’s backyard.”

The boat is being stripped of key kit and Cox is still working out how it can be retrieved.

He paid tribute to the crew for keeping their cool and professionalism after such a stunning collision on Leg 2 of the nine-month, round-the-world race.

“Their procedure, everything was as professional and as good as it could be - you couldn’t ask for more.”

Nicholson is a twice-Olympian, who is one of the most experienced off-shore sailors in the world. He said that a ‘mistake’ had been responsible for the collision with the reef, but did not elaborate.

The team plans to make a full statement on the facts later this week.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This part...

 

The team plans to make a full statement on the facts later this week.

 

Is the most important piece. So clearly we should shut this thread down for a couple days and see what they say before speculating more.

 

(Good luck with that!) ;-)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This part...

 

The team plans to make a full statement on the facts later this week.

 

Is the most important piece. So clearly we should shut this thread down for a couple days and see what they say before speculating more.

 

(Good luck with that!) ;-)

.

...I disagree..all the speculguesdimates from various experts here make for good eat-your-words threads later on! :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My point is coming from someone who is genuinely engaged and interested in the race.

You're not alone. Feel better now ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Here is the roundup on this from the rest of the fleet:

 

http://www.volvooceanrace.com/en/news/8084_Grounded.html

There are shallow spots, and plenty 200m deeper - Im not surprised you can miss them, he adds.

 

When I was looking at the navigation a few days ago, checking these things, it took a long time for me to find them.

Well, there's one possible workaround for that problem...

 

It's commonly known as a 'paper chart'...

 

The Cargados Carajos archipelago is indicated on the freakin' 12 inch GLOBE I have sitting on my desk, fer chrissake...

is on mine too,the tragic thing is the globe is made in..... Denmark

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

Is that even salvageable? Wouldn't pulling it back over the reef not be the final straw?

 

1512200_10152917912412437_61713690740922

 

It'll buff right out.

 

At least the front hasn't fallen of...

Is the environment off to the left in that picture, or to the right?

Boat is already outside the environment. There is nothing out there except the sea, fish, birds and oh a busted up VO-65. :lol:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Short video interview with Neil Cox

The respect Neil Cox has for his teammates and in particular Alvimedica is crystal clear. Alvimedica's role in this shouldn't be underestimated and again I think you'll find it comes back to the close relationship Will and Nico had during the last VOR as skipper and navigator in amongst the broader respect competitors have for one another in this race.

 

Whilst there is a lot to do in terms of recovering the crew, gear, etc, it's still highly emotional for the guys involved. Neil Cox speaks like he's nearly lost a family member.

 

If there is a lesson as to how tight a team can be and what they'll do for each other, then this is it...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

post-20594-0-85368400-1417548928_thumb.j

.

 

...all power to Vestas!...I'm hoping boat 8 was mostly completed already....''the lads on the floor decided to keep things rolling. They were kinda hoping to get some rides themselves,,but I'm sure some good wage might talk it off their hands'' :rolleyes:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Stan Honey suggested one particular 'safe distance' model (for shallow water wave situations) in the low speed chase report. I have suggested in posts above that I personally considered 2nm a 'safe distance' to remote reefs like this volvo one. But given the ocean pilot comments about accuracy, 3nm might have been more appropriate. It turns out that for the 'main features' this reef seems to have been much more accurately charted than the pilot suggests, but who knows how accurate all the surrounding little islets and coral heads actually are.

 

Fatigue and work load have to be part of the 'safe distance' equation.

 

Good points, but

1; distance to warn the navigator for dangerous areas is depended on boatspeed. Specially on the oceans sailing. Onshore the dangers are normally all around . So your mentioned 3 miles is very short of sailing with 15 knots, while its enough if your sailing 5 knots.

 

I have done some stupid shit in delivery mode, like for training tacking so close as possible to the coast at night. Was in South Portugal when going north, light winds, getting bored. I was really close to shore, but never heard it, did see raised land to warn me, a black band. A low lying island would be missed. Did not hear anything of the ocean surf on the rocky coast. Another member was on depth meter watch, the other on GPS (which is less accurate near high coasts). Never again, to scary. See picture, will never forget this lesson.

This was pre elec charts. Since then I use the gps lat lon as warning signs for the crew to wake me. At least 10 m before the danger. Try to find easy to remember numbers for them.

post-188-0-18559500-1417551229_thumb.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Great that nobody got hurt.

 

Good to hear they are headed back.

 

Bad break all around, but cheers to Vestas, great company and great team, they have my highest praise for their sponsorships / sailing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok I got the whole scoop on what happened.One guy leaned over the back to take a piss another went to get water for dry throat and the spliff in the helmsman mouth got wet when they hit.What do you recon!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

The tone of this thread was to let Vestas speak as to what went wrong and not rush to judge / throw under a bus.

We are over 72 hours later and the press releases coming from Vestas are fucking PR bullshit garbage.

The team is ship wrecked on an island with minimal food, water awaiting rescue. They have a sat phone with a dying battery a local generator that runs just a few hours during the day/ night.

 

What part of that is fucking ridiculous ? This isn't hollywood land where we beam people off the island instantly. In the real world you can't build a tv studio out of coconuts and mangos

 

It is hard to have more PR when you are still trying to get people and equipment on site.

 

As for team vesta I hope their only complaint is the lack of females stuck on that island with them.

My point is coming from someone who is genuinely engaged and interested in the race.
And your the only one??? And your vested interest is??

 

Fuk of!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok I got the whole scoop on what happened.One guy leaned over the back to take a piss another went to get water for dry throat and the spliff in the helmsman mouth got wet when they hit.What do you recon!!

.

 

 

...yes,,I think you're on to something f 'sure.....this definitely supports Robin's theory.....

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

.

Charlie Noble, on 02 Dec 2014 - 08:48, said:

The tone of this thread was to let Vestas speak as to what went wrong and not rush to judge / throw under a bus.
We are over 72 hours later and the press releases coming from Vestas are fucking PR bullshit garbage.

 

My point is coming from someone who is genuinely engaged and interested in the race.

.

 

.....nice one Charlie....so good of you to join the team! :)

 

 

 

I don't really care. I'm interested in the story (pictures, video) and that is why they have OBR's. If they can send same day, live pictures from reporters being bombed in Afghanistan then surely... Unfortunately, this story is getting old fast

....errr,welcome to SA,,'S'....I guess we'll put you in with the 'tough crowd' group ...I hope that's okay :mellow:<_<

 

 

post-3217-0-70800700-1417554104_thumb.jpgpost-3217-0-68393000-1417554110_thumb.jpgpost-3217-0-54868100-1417554119_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

3. .... In this particular case, a clearing depth (alarm) would probably have prevented the incident.

Excellent points as usual from Estar, PE and others. From any of the VOR teams, the odds are that this was a known danger, with a sort of risk analysis done and direction given. Abu Dhabi's statement is telling in that they came close and could have missed it at night - they knew about it. Keeping X miles away is a good measure, but if I'm taking some risk by going closer because I want to get to "point B" faster, and in racing you always want to win some extra meters, I usually limit the risk by saying we will tack or jibe at X depth. The value of X will have to do with what the chart tells me about the bottom over my intended course, my experience with the area, my appetite for risk, whether my boat is fragile or sturdy, etc. In the combination of fatigue, focus on sailing fast, and the million other things going on, at night, it would really help to get a little reminder from a computer that will continue to pay attention to the depth. I can't imagine that they set a depth alarm and then ignored it. I'm guilty of not setting one when I should, but when I do set it, I'm usually happy about it.

 

I realize this is jumping ahead, but if the above scenario is correct, then hubris has something to do with it too. (I wouldn't mention that to Stamm either. Or Joyon.) I think Estar is right, but then why don't they set an alarm? The culture of experienced sailors is to say "I've got that risk covered" and 99% of the time they do, so setting an alarm is overkill. But when sailing 15 knots at night, even the best could use a little help. When Vestas makes a statement we could find out that this is wrong headed, but as Estar puts it, using that tool on board probably would have prevented the incident.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i want to see them build a new boat in 3 months and rejoin the race. How awesome would that be?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Until we get better pictures, I don't think we can completely rule out the recovery of the deck and maybe even the rig, and construction of a new hull for launch maybe down in New Zealand?

 

Not likely, but not much detail at this stage. We know there are two spare rigs, enough spare rudders, lying around. Who knows about the keel. They may have got the sails off, and if not the Vestas practice sails are hardly touched.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i want to see them build a new boat in 3 months and rejoin the race. How awesome would that be?

.

....that'd be the type of Vestaspirit we've come to know and love!

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Would be quite awesome.

But how realistic is it? Even if you went to both Green Marine and Multiplast right now with a largish box of Euros.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This part...

 

The team plans to make a full statement on the facts later this week.

 

Is the most important piece. So clearly we should shut this thread down for a couple days and see what they say before speculating more.

 

(Good luck with that!) ;-)

aww I want to make Gilligan island jokes.

 

Why is Team Vesta Sad? Because MaryAnne and Ginger sailed with Team SCA.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i want to see them build a new boat in 3 months and rejoin the race. How awesome would that be?

 

Vestas should be allowed to purchase or charter a VO70 to continue to participate in each leg.

They could continue to participate "unofficially" like Pen Duick VI in the 1977 race. It would be awesome to have a VO70 to watch among the current boats.

 

If a new VOD65 is then built they could return to "official" racing with the new boat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i want to see them build a new boat in 3 months and rejoin the race. How awesome would that be?

 

 

If Knut really wants 10 boats on the line next race they're going to need to build a new boat at some point; might as well do it now. Seems like that would be a PR win if they could get back out there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree would be good to see them get a 70 & get back out there. Give them a pursuit start penalty & obviously not eligible for the podium but give them there own podium make it a bit light hearted.

 

Or:

 

Give all the boats some Vestas signage & split the crew up in the remaining boats 1 to each boat. Keep the sponsors happy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That boat is toast. The cost of salvage & rebuild at a reputable yard would be more than a new boat built at the factory where they have all the tooling & the process & procedure down pat.

 

Be great if the could get some parts of it like the rig but I doubt that will happen unless the insurance is responsible for getting it back to safe harbour & they can buy it back.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That boat is toast. The cost of salvage & rebuild at a reputable yard would be more than a new boat built at the factory where they have all the tooling & the process & procedure down pat.

 

Be great if the could get some parts of it like the rig but I doubt that will happen unless the insurance is responsible for getting it back to safe harbour & they can buy it back.

 

You'd never want to re-use that rig. Can you imagine the shockloading from hitting the bricks at that speed?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

BTW, I think you have to give some credit to the boat design/build.

 

If it had broken and sunk immediately when it hit the reef, at night in waves on the windward side of a reef, I think it quite likely someone would have died. Almost certain injuries.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While it would be great to see Vestas back on the water there is little doubt that the boat is toast. And- what would be the point in building a boat to maybe be able to join the fleet for the last leg? I certainly wouldn't want to waste my time trying to convince the sponsor to pay for that and get laughed all the way from Lem back to under the rock they would be trying to hide under

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While it would be great to see Vestas back on the water there is little doubt that the boat is toast. And- what would be the point in building a boat to maybe be able to join the fleet for the last leg? I certainly wouldn't want to waste my time trying to convince the sponsor to pay for that and get laughed all the way from Lem back to under the rock they would be trying to hide under

Maybe. But I think most people would not like to see the careers of these great sailors go this way. A chance at redemption, even if little chance of competing, would go a long way. Vestas seems committed. I think it would be a big day to see them back.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nicholson is a twice-Olympian, who is one of the most experienced off-shore sailors in the world. He said that a ‘mistake’ had been responsible for the collision with the reef, but did not elaborate.

 

A mistake like "While in Mauritius we purchased some French charts but did not realise the French measure longitude which begins from Paris NOT Greenwich, a difference of some 30 milles " ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

can someone confirm this story i heard way back in the day (IOR). the Maxi, Congers was doing the BA-Rio Race. to expedite immigrations at the finish, the executive BN took all the passports with him to meet the boat and clear the crew so the crew could get on with business at hand (partying). somewhere between the start and finish, the boat ran aground and the whole crew were jailed for illegal entry into a country since they did not have their passports with them!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If Knut really wants 10 boats on the line next race they're going to need to build a new boat at some point; might as well do it now. Seems like that would be a PR win if they could get back out there.

.

....I'm hoping that if the value of Vestas' ROI is part of the insurance,,things would happen fast.

 

....but I guess every insurance buying sailor would be paying forever. :mellow:

 

 

 

That boat is toast. The cost of salvage & rebuild at a reputable yard would be more than a new boat built at the factory where they have all the tooling & the process & procedure down pat.

 

Be great if the could get some parts of it like the rig but I doubt that will happen unless the insurance is responsible for getting it back to safe harbour & they can buy it back.

 

You'd never want to re-use that rig. Can you imagine the shockloading from hitting the bricks big waves at that speed?

.

.....fixed^^,,wouldn't want to use a well proven used mast like that. :wacko:

 

 

 

 

 

A mistake like "While in Mauritius we purchased some French charts but did not realise the French measure longitude which begins from Paris NOT Greenwich, a difference of some 30 milles " ?

.

......likely the inter-world equivalent,no? :unsure:

 

 

 

...the VO70 idea sounds fun.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While it would be great to see Vestas back on the water there is little doubt that the boat is toast. And- what would be the point in building a boat to maybe be able to join the fleet for the last leg? I certainly wouldn't want to waste my time trying to convince the sponsor to pay for that and get laughed all the way from Lem back to under the rock they would be trying to hide under

 

It wouldn't be just for the last leg. There are a lot of legs left, with the schedule being loaded up with shorter legs toward the end.

 

Here's the days between today (December 2, 2014) and the start of the next 5 legs:

 

* 30 days until Leg 3 start (Abu Dhabi to Sanya -- plus 6 more legs remaining)

* 66 days until Leg 4 start (Sanya to Auckland -- plus 5 more legs remaining)

* 101 days until Leg 5 start (Auckland to Itajai -- plus 4 more legs remaining)

* 136 days until Leg 6 start (Itajai to Newport -- plus 3 more legs remaining)

* 164 days until Leg 7 start (Newport to Lisbon -- plus 2 more legs remaining)

 

Toward the end of the list, I'd think those starts are totally doable with a new-built boat, at least from a project-management standpoint, assuming the money is there.

 

And there's this: The sponsor doesn't care about winning the race per se. The sponsor cares about exposure, and goodwill, and favorable publicity. That's what they're actually paying for. If Vestas were to commit to building a new boat and getting it on the line as soon as possible, I'd have to think they'd be getting a steady stream of positive publicity. It'd be like the women's team with SCA, only moreso: There's a built-in feel-good storyline that the media would be unable to resist. It's almost like giving the sponsor a guaranteed podium-finish-worth of publicity for every stage from here forward, the "race to reach the starting line", the skipper and crew's "race for redemption", etc.

 

It'd be dramatic. It'd be interesting. _I'd_ sure watch it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From the race thread: By Corkob

 


"Morten Albæk, Vestas Chief Marketing Officer comments, Though we will not be able to compete in next leg of the Race from Abu Dhabi to Sanya, China, we are considering all available options for re-joining the ocean race at a later stage. Vestas is a company that has overcome great challenges in its 35 years of existence and we aim to do so again."

They must be considering some kind of salvage and repair operation. I suppose at the end of the day, there's no boat that can't be fixed, or salvage that can't be achieved, if you are prepared to throw enough money at it. As it's insured anyway maybe the cost might not be as insurmountable as it might seem. It would be some comeback if they can pull it off. The alternative is to complete a new No 8???? The tooling is there. How quick could that be done?

 

 

To quote the recently deceased Bob Salmon, "the sponsors either want a win or a disaster".

 

The Vestas people already are perceived by me as a "can do, think on their feet" kind of company. If they pull this off I'll be convinced that they are a great company and I am sure that Joe public will be too..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It will be interesting if they build a new 65, will the crew have any input into the non measured parts? Will it be a Volvo 65 MK II

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

>

That boat is toast. The cost of salvage & rebuild at a reputable yard would be more than a new boat built at the factory where they have all the tooling & the process & procedure down pat.

 

Be great if the could get some parts of it like the rig but I doubt that will happen unless the insurance is responsible for getting it back to safe harbour & they can buy it back.

 

You'd never want to re-use that rig. Can you imagine the shockloading from hitting the bricks big waves at that speed?

.

.....fixed^^,,wouldn't want to use a well proven used mast like that. :wacko:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So, you would re-use the wings from a crashed airplane too, I guess. Idiot. I'll tell you what - if they salvage the mast and re-use it, I'll donate AUD 1K to a charity of your choice. Feel free to call me on it. You don't even have to offer to reciprocate.

 

I will say that the mere fact that the mast is still standing in one piece is testament to design and construction (as is the fact that the hull didn't disintegrate on impact - as Estar said earlier), but that doesn't mean it's good to re-use.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It wouldn't be just for the last leg. There are a lot of legs left, with the schedule being loaded up with shorter legs toward the end.

 

Here's the days between today (December 2, 2014) and the start of the next 5 legs:

 

* 30 days until Leg 3 start (Abu Dhabi to Sanya -- 6 legs remaining)

* 66 days until Leg 4 start (Sanya to Auckland -- 5 legs remaining)

* 101 days until Leg 5 start (Auckland to Itajai -- 4 legs remaining)

* 136 days until Leg 6 start (Itajai to Newport -- 3 legs remaining)

* 164 days until Leg 7 start (Newport to Lisbon -- 2 legs remaining)

 

Toward the end of the list, I'd think those starts are totally doable with a new-built boat, at least from a project-management standpoint, assuming the money is there.

 

 

It'd be dramatic. It'd be interesting. _I'd_ sure watch it.

.

 

... I'll take leg 5 for $50,jb..

 

....leg 4 for $80 if the tooling and workforce haven't moved too farr

 

....leg 3 for $150 if a hull is already mostly built like I told them to :rolleyes:

 

 

 

To quote the recently deceased Bob Salmon, "the sponsors either want a win or a disaster".

 

The Vestas people already are perceived by me as a "can do, think on their feet" kind of company. If they pull this off I'll be convinced.

.

 

....I'm pretty sure they know what... 'b.o.a.t.' and 's.p.e.e.d.' mean :)

 

 

......$pend Prettymuch Everything Everyone Demand$ :)

 

....or perhaps they were smart enough to have insurance on their ROI

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So, you would re-use the wings from a crashed airplane too, I guess. Idiot. I'll tell you what - if they salvage the mast and re-use it, I'll donate AUD 1K to a charity of your choice. Feel free to call me on it. You don't even have to offer to reciprocate.

 

I will say that the mere fact that the mast is still standing in one piece is testament to design and construction (as is the fact that the hull didn't disintegrate on impact - as Estar said earlier), but that doesn't mean it's good to re-use.

.

 

.....I guess I'd resemble the comment if I was planning on recycling airplane wings or if the spar takes any direct impacts with items harder than it has so far <_<

 

...but otherwise I'll quote you for posteriority.

 

...do you want to qualify what counts as 're-use' of the mast...will 'flagpole' do? :P

 

 

...in any case with Vestas' recent statement,it sounds like game-ON,,in many more ways than a boatrace :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Without a single injury onboard, I think the mast may have been spared as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Without a single injury onboard, I think the mast may have been spared as well.

.

...all depends on how they get it out of there....I'd suggest some extra shipping insurance :rolleyes:

 

 

...I think I'll be following this one close! :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

So, you would re-use the wings from a crashed airplane too, I guess. Idiot. I'll tell you what - if they salvage the mast and re-use it, I'll donate AUD 1K to a charity of your choice. Feel free to call me on it. You don't even have to offer to reciprocate.

 

I will say that the mere fact that the mast is still standing in one piece is testament to design and construction (as is the fact that the hull didn't disintegrate on impact - as Estar said earlier), but that doesn't mean it's good to re-use.

.

 

.....I guess I'd resemble the comment if I was planning on recycling airplane wings or if the spar takes any direct impacts with items harder than it has so far <_<

 

...but otherwise I'll quote you for posteriority.

 

...do you want to qualify what counts as 're-use' of the mast...will 'flagpole' do? :P

 

 

...in any case with Vestas' recent statement,it sounds like game-ON,,in many more ways than a boatrace :)

"posteriority" ?? Are you calling me an ass?

 

Flagpole? Hmm - yes, I'd like to qualify "re-use" as installing the mast in another VO65 (or the same one, repaired) and racing it in an ocean leg of the Volvo race - this iteration or another.

 

I seriously doubt you'd find a crew prepared to set off using that mast - I know I wouldn't. But it still could make a nice flagpole ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Do we know if Neil Cox or anyone from VOR is going out to check out the wreck in the coming days? Or will it be left entirely to salvage experts from here on in? Vestas is very much an enviro-oriented company, for sure they will get the thing out of there one way or another. I desperately hope it doesn't get the chainsaw program. The whole thing has been pretty distressing. I'd love to see them back in the race, somehow. Musto are selling Vestas kit, maybe all Team Vestas fans can buy a T-shirt and support the cause. 'Crowd fund' the finish of Boat 8 and get the boys back in the race!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Do we know if Neil Cox or anyone from VOR is going out to check out the wreck in the coming days? Or will it be left entirely to salvage experts from here on in? Vestas is very much an enviro-oriented company, for sure they will get the thing out of there one way or another. I desperately hope it doesn't get the chainsaw program. The whole thing has been pretty distressing. I'd love to see them back in the race, somehow. Musto are selling Vestas kit, maybe all Team Vestas fans can buy a T-shirt and support the cause. 'Crowd fund' the finish of Boat 8 and get the boys back in the race!

.

 

....I know someone who'd pitch $1G if they use the old mast* :lol:

 

 

 

.......**though I suppose they'd be those extra small aussie $

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Do we know if Neil Cox or anyone from VOR is going out to check out the wreck in the coming days? Or will it be left entirely to salvage experts from here on in? Vestas is very much an enviro-oriented company, for sure they will get the thing out of there one way or another. I desperately hope it doesn't get the chainsaw program. The whole thing has been pretty distressing. I'd love to see them back in the race, somehow. Musto are selling Vestas kit, maybe all Team Vestas fans can buy a T-shirt and support the cause. 'Crowd fund' the finish of Boat 8 and get the boys back in the race!

 

Far cheaper and easier to build from scratch. May save some deck gear, sails but the structure is farked. Vestas is landfill.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

shit Comanche was built in four. A VO 65 should be a lot simpler.

.

 

...doable f'sure if most of the staff are available.

 

 

.......'work-in' time might be tough :mellow:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

shit Comanche was built in four. A VO 65 should be a lot simpler.

I assume you mean from the time the molds were done? Because there were guys working in Boothbay for slightly over a years time on that project.

 

I agree though that if the tooling is all there for the VO65 (which it should be) then they could bang one out fairly quickly considering.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

BTW, I think you have to give some credit to the boat design/build.

.

+1

 

A great point!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Did VOR actually commence production on Number 8?

.

....haven't heard a word of that,,,but was 'suggesting' that after 7 was finished........here's hoping they 'listened' :rolleyes:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Vestas has dealt with adversity before. From their webpage is a story of how their early wind turbines had a flaw in the blades, and discovering and fixing the problem took a year, during which time Vestas reimbursed their customers. When they figured out the problem, they decided to make the blades in house, to be in charge of the manufacture of these critical fiberglass components. The resulting changes boosted efficiency, so that when they returned to market, their turbines had a competitive advantage.

 

There are certainly parallels to be made between this story and Vestas' current predicament. I trust that Brian Carlin has some rather dramatic footage of the grounding, some harrowing moments on the reef, assessing the damage, the decision to abandon the ship, and the subsequent rescue efforts. Together with some in-person interviews of captain and crew, this team has little to distract them from creating an AMAZING multimedia presentation which could be aired at the subsequent ports of call for the VOR.

 

It could be the hit of the race village 66 days from now in Sanya, a port of entry into a country in dire need of alternative energy sources, if they are to be seen to be living up to recent carbon agreements with the US. And the angle of "if you don't build the blades carefully, they tend to disintegrate at high speed" could subtly push a country known to have manufacturing quality control problems to outsource much of the work or at least consult the world experts.

 

I'd go to a booth in a race village that dealt with a disaster, and would tolerate a certain amount of corporate history as the price of admission. I'd search out that vid online, and study it carefully if it helped me avoid reefs in the middle of the night with a storm raging. I'd end up learning about the company that is adept at dealing with adversity and turning it into a competitive advantage.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Huh. Vestas got the attention of Wired.com http://www.wired.com/2014/12/team-vestas-wind-volvo-ocean-race/

 

Ken Read is quoted:

At first, each leg seems simple: It’s a race from one city to the next. But the fastest route—and that’s all that matters here—is rarely a straight line because weather and sea conditions are constantly changing. Your course from south to north is never from south to north,” says Ken Read, who twice skippered a team in the race, and is now president of North Sails, a sailmaking company.

Plotting routes is a bit more complicated than mapping your average road trip. Every six hours, each team downloads a big package of weather data from race headquarters (teams are not allowed direct Internet access). With that info and software called the velocity prediction program, which determines speed based on wind conditions, the skipper and navigator chart the course they consider fastest. The standard route “zigzags you all over the ocean, chasing weather, chasing storms, chasing whatever is out there that you can use to your advantage.” If the quickest route takes you through reefs or shallow water, you follow it, Read says. “There’s no such thing as being more careful,” he says. “You’re out there to win a race.”

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

can someone confirm this story i heard way back in the day (IOR). the Maxi, Congers was doing the BA-Rio Race. to expedite immigrations at the finish, the executive BN took all the passports with him to meet the boat and clear the crew so the crew could get on with business at hand (partying). somewhere between the start and finish, the boat ran aground and the whole crew were jailed for illegal entry into a country since they did not have their passports with them!!!

Sounds like horse shit to me. Pretty sure it's international law that when you leave a country's boundaries by water that all crew's passports must be on board. I have most certainly never done it without all passports on board. I sailed with those guys for two seasons and the loss of the last boat was a topic of late night rail conversion on many occasions. No one ever mentioned any issues with passports. What did get mentioned time and time again were the absolutely heroic efforts of the boat captain. He swam a line ashore in 8 foot seas and rigged a rescue line to haul everyone ashore safely in the middle of the night. Also the owner, Bevin Koeppel, (may he RIP) despite being the oldest, frailest, (hip replacement, double heart bypass etc etc) insisted on being the last man off.

 

Apparently the scavenges were out there with demo saws etc before daybreak and had the thing pretty much gutted (including mast, boom, winches, engine etc) by dusk. Most felt more than a little suspicious by the scavengers incredible efficiency as the reason they grounded was that a major nearby lighthouse was not lit that night.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

can someone confirm this story i heard way back in the day (IOR). the Maxi, Congers was doing the BA-Rio Race. to expedite immigrations at the finish, the executive BN took all the passports with him to meet the boat and clear the crew so the crew could get on with business at hand (partying). somewhere between the start and finish, the boat ran aground and the whole crew were jailed for illegal entry into a country since they did not have their passports with them!!!

Sounds like horse shit to me. Pretty sure it's international law that when you leave a country's boundaries by water that all crew's passports must be on board. I have most certainly never done it without all passports on board. I sailed with those guys for two seasons and the loss of the last boat was a topic of late night rail conversion on many occasions. No one ever mentioned any issues with passports. What did get mentioned time and time again were the absolutely heroic efforts of the boat captain. He swam a line ashore in 8 foot seas and rigged a rescue line to haul everyone ashore safely in the middle of the night. Also the owner, Bevin Koeppel, (may he RIP) despite being the oldest, frailest, (hip replacement, double heart bypass etc etc) insisted on being the last man off.

 

Apparently the scavenges were out there with demo saws etc before daybreak and had the thing pretty much gutted (including mast, boom, winches, engine etc) by dusk. Most felt more than a little suspicious by the scavengers incredible efficiency as the reason they grounded was that a major nearby lighthouse was not lit that night.

thanks Abbo. always thought there not much to that story. i got to know Bevin through Bob Barton when i was working for Horizon Sails. trimmed main on the Ausie Maxi he bought before moving back home.

 

sorry everyone for high jacking this thread.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Been reading a lot about "jobs which can't have failures" on this thread. I work in one of those in the medical field. Despite it being a "no failure" area people still die and they will continue because it's basically an idiotic comment.

 

Essentially: when people are involved, there will be occasions where human error causes a crap outcome. No matter where/what etc; that's the fact of the matter.

The risk minimisation approach to this is to improve systems to filter those out as much as possible, with the realisation that on occasion, all the holes in the filters will line up and the brown stuff will hit the (vestas manufactured?) rotating blades. That's the "swiss cheese model" people talk about. When that happens, or other random variables dump you in it regardless, you have drills to rescue the situation as well as possible-hence the evacuation drills taped to the bulkheads of VTR that you can see in the VO65 walkthrough vid.

 

Much has also been mentioned about what a good crew these guys are, with an undertone of disbelief that this happened to them of any of the teams. Interspersed with: "theyre muppets/numpties/should never crew again/need to be shot at dawn, etc" and other useful sentiment. Even the top people can make mistakes if the system is setup against them. Or better put: even the top people make mistakes, in a faulty system they end up in bad outcomes. Usually several mistakes conspire together to that outcome. Each one of those things should seem to be controllable: the fatigue management, the dual role of the navigator, communication, the way land masses vanish when you zoom out (that seems a glaring systems issue to my uneducated mind)-but when the holes line up-you end up in the poo.

 

Blatant disregard for the systems: putting you and others in situations of increased risk? Now: that's negligence.

 

Blame, recrimination, scapegoating...all make some people feel better but at the end of the day only serves to ruin a person who usually genuinely was trying their best and allows a broken system to continue. If this isn't looked into and the mechanisms that led to it addressed, it will happen again. No matter how good the teams are. After all-2 other teams alluded to luck that they realised late in the piece that they were shaving the shoals a little closely. To my mind this screams a systems issue.

 

This has happened to Vestas. Good, skilled professionals have made an error b/c they are human. Otherwise we'd have robots steering these thing and where's the fun in that? Following this disaster, they've clicked instantly into what appears to be an incredibly well managed crisis mode without loss of life or injury...and then they've gone back when it's safe to secure the environmentally damaging equipment from the boat. That displays monumental professionalism and planning. They didn't remember that by accident-someone planned this months ago, hoping never to need it. Unfortunately they did.

 

They're good sailors and good people. Good people fuck up bc they're human. They didn't plan on running aground, its unlikely to be a great outcome for them or the people depending on the team (sponsors/families etc). Though if properly managed, this could be turned into a success story of sorts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Been reading a lot about "jobs which can't have failures" on this thread. I work in one of those in the medical field. Despite it being a "no failure" area people still die and they will continue because it's basically an idiotic comment.

 

Essentially: when people are involved, there will be occasions where human error causes a crap outcome. No matter where/what etc; that's the fact of the matter.

The risk minimisation approach to this is to improve systems to filter those out as much as possible, with the realisation that on occasion, all the holes in the filters will line up and the brown stuff will hit the (vestas manufactured?) rotating blades. That's the "swiss cheese model" people talk about. When that happens, or other random variables dump you in it regardless, you have drills to rescue the situation as well as possible-hence the evacuation drills taped to the bulkheads of VTR that you can see in the VO65 walkthrough vid.

 

Much has also been mentioned about what a good crew these guys are, with an undertone of disbelief that this happened to them of any of the teams. Interspersed with: "theyre muppets/numpties/should never crew again/need to be shot at dawn, etc" and other useful sentiment. Even the top people can make mistakes if the system is setup against them. Or better put: even the top people make mistakes, in a faulty system they end up in bad outcomes. Usually several mistakes conspire together to that outcome. Each one of those things should seem to be controllable: the fatigue management, the dual role of the navigator, communication, the way land masses vanish when you zoom out (that seems a glaring systems issue to my uneducated mind)-but when the holes line up-you end up in the poo.

 

Blatant disregard for the systems: putting you and others in situations of increased risk? Now: that's negligence.

 

Blame, recrimination, scapegoating...all make some people feel better but at the end of the day only serves to ruin a person who usually genuinely was trying their best and allows a broken system to continue. If this isn't looked into and the mechanisms that led to it addressed, it will happen again. No matter how good the teams are. After all-2 other teams alluded to luck that they realised late in the piece that they were shaving the shoals a little closely. To my mind this screams a systems issue.

 

This has happened to Vestas. Good, skilled professionals have made an error b/c they are human. Otherwise we'd have robots steering these thing and where's the fun in that? Following this disaster, they've clicked instantly into what appears to be an incredibly well managed crisis mode without loss of life or injury...and then they've gone back when it's safe to secure the environmentally damaging equipment from the boat. That displays monumental professionalism and planning. They didn't remember that by accident-someone planned this months ago, hoping never to need it. Unfortunately they did.

 

They're good sailors and good people. Good people fuck up bc they're human. They didn't plan on running aground, its unlikely to be a great outcome for them or the people depending on the team (sponsors/families etc). Though if properly managed, this could be turned into a success story of sorts.

feel free to have that opinion! i have definatly another - the are clearly not good sailors and i repeat the skipper and navigator should go back to school. they are a new generation young navigator who probably never learnt /had to log his position on a paper chart every hour. this is a big fuckup and a mistake like this simply should never happen! expecially with a fully pro crew. i assume the root of the accident is to rely too much on modern technique and to have forgotten/or never learnt the basics of proper seamanship/navigation.

and just because most people here are very nice and maybe good friends one should still call this what it is...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lot of people saying both Chris and the navigator will never get a job again.? In fact this was on the front page of SA in the article. Just wondering if everybody shares that view..?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Been reading a lot about "jobs which can't have failures" on this thread. I work in one of those in the medical field. Despite it being a "no failure" area people still die and they will continue because it's basically an idiotic comment.

 

Essentially: when people are involved, there will be occasions where human error causes a crap outcome. No matter where/what etc; that's the fact of the matter.

The risk minimisation approach to this is to improve systems to filter those out as much as possible, with the realisation that on occasion, all the holes in the filters will line up and the brown stuff will hit the (vestas manufactured?) rotating blades. That's the "swiss cheese model" people talk about. When that happens, or other random variables dump you in it regardless, you have drills to rescue the situation as well as possible-hence the evacuation drills taped to the bulkheads of VTR that you can see in the VO65 walkthrough vid.

 

Much has also been mentioned about what a good crew these guys are, with an undertone of disbelief that this happened to them of any of the teams. Interspersed with: "theyre muppets/numpties/should never crew again/need to be shot at dawn, etc" and other useful sentiment. Even the top people can make mistakes if the system is setup against them. Or better put: even the top people make mistakes, in a faulty system they end up in bad outcomes. Usually several mistakes conspire together to that outcome. Each one of those things should seem to be controllable: the fatigue management, the dual role of the navigator, communication, the way land masses vanish when you zoom out (that seems a glaring systems issue to my uneducated mind)-but when the holes line up-you end up in the poo.

 

Blatant disregard for the systems: putting you and others in situations of increased risk? Now: that's negligence.

 

Blame, recrimination, scapegoating...all make some people feel better but at the end of the day only serves to ruin a person who usually genuinely was trying their best and allows a broken system to continue. If this isn't looked into and the mechanisms that led to it addressed, it will happen again. No matter how good the teams are. After all-2 other teams alluded to luck that they realised late in the piece that they were shaving the shoals a little closely. To my mind this screams a systems issue.

 

This has happened to Vestas. Good, skilled professionals have made an error b/c they are human. Otherwise we'd have robots steering these thing and where's the fun in that? Following this disaster, they've clicked instantly into what appears to be an incredibly well managed crisis mode without loss of life or injury...and then they've gone back when it's safe to secure the environmentally damaging equipment from the boat. That displays monumental professionalism and planning. They didn't remember that by accident-someone planned this months ago, hoping never to need it. Unfortunately they did.

 

They're good sailors and good people. Good people fuck up bc they're human. They didn't plan on running aground, its unlikely to be a great outcome for them or the people depending on the team (sponsors/families etc). Though if properly managed, this could be turned into a success story of sorts.

feel free to have that opinion! i have definatly another - the are clearly not good sailors and i repeat the skipper and navigator should go back to school. they are a new generation young navigator who probably never learnt /had to log his position on a paper chart every hour. this is a big fuckup and a mistake like this simply should never happen! expecially with a fully pro crew. i assume the root of the accident is to rely too much on modern technique and to have forgotten/or never learnt the basics of proper seamanship/navigation.

and just because most people here are very nice and maybe good friends one should still call this what it is...

 

You can tell all that just from what you've seen so far? Wow.

 

Imagine what you'll know tomorrow.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Its like expecting a Formula One driver not getting a job after a crush. Fact is both of them are too good to be overlooked in future. In fact their experience just got richer. If I mount a Volvo campaign(wish) Chris is the first one to get a call.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^ Bollocks. I'd go to sea any day with a bloke like Chris Nicholson. If you wound up in the shit, for whatever reason, that experience he and his crew have just been through, would be re-assuring beyond belief. If there were 'mistakes made' - and it seems there were, people will learn from this shit. The software and technology people, the people at VOR race control that could have/should have known for some time, there looked to be a FUBAR on their hands for three hours, or whatever it was. The guys on the other boats, that went ... "whoa, fuck, that was close - maybe the guys behind ought to KNOW about this and keep an eye out for it".

 

I desperately want this story to have a good ending and I would love it, if somehow, some way, we'll see big blue back in this race. They were the team I was rooting for (still love saying that, as an Aussie), since they signed on to this edition. I ordered my fanboy Vestas t-shirt today from the Musto site, did you?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

feel free to have that opinion! i have definatly another - the are clearly not good sailors and i repeat the skipper and navigator should go back to school. they are a new generation young navigator who probably never learnt /had to log his position on a paper chart every hour. this is a big fuckup and a mistake like this simply should never happen! expecially with a fully pro crew. i assume the root of the accident is to rely too much on modern technique and to have forgotten/or never learnt the basics of proper seamanship/navigation.

and just because most people here are very nice and maybe good friends one should still call this what it is...

 

Clearly not good sailors? Whatever you are smoking you should share it around, that's some good stuff. Nico has won multiple world titles in the 505s and 49ers. He's done a couple of laps of the globe including 2nd overall with Camper in the last Volvo. If he's your idea of a shit sailor I'm struggling to imagine what someone would need to have done to be considered a rock star.

 

 

Lot of people saying both Chris and the navigator will never get a job again.? In fact this was on the front page of SA in the article. Just wondering if everybody shares that view..?

 

Pure A grade bullshit. The kind of people who hire guys like Nico and Wouter know better than to freak out over mistakes because everyone makes mistakes. It's what you do after the mistake that counts and I'm pretty sure that the Vestas crew have done all the right things since the accident.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

here's a shot of my Danish made globe(circa 1980), not quite the resolution you need at sea - and it also requires a 220v power source to light up, but will get you round the world.

 

Seriously though, mauritius is not that backward. It's probably the most visited 'island holiday' destination from south africa, with loads of 5 star hotels/resorts and the accompanying watersports. There has been at times a Mauritius to Durban yacht race too (with unfortunately a disaster of it's own, a sinking during the 2006 race). The problem here is that this is a 'governed' atoll of possibly minor importance to them in the grand scheme of things and the main island of mauritius is miles away (430km!). They are also quite savvy in terms of trade and are an import/export tarriff free zone offering tax breaks to companies basing themselves there (I'm sure there's a more eloquent way to say this, but essentially it's not some backward african despot running the place). - http://www.tourism-mauritius.mu/discover/

 

Speaking of environmental issues, I think the recovery of the boat is mainly to limit these tarnishing the sponsorship. Meanwhile this is the shocking status quo for other Indian ocean destinations - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/moslive/article-2162653/Maldives-island-paradise-Thilafushi-trashed-reduced-pile-rubbish.html

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Been reading a lot about "jobs which can't have failures" on this thread. I work in one of those in the medical field. Despite it being a "no failure" area people still die and they will continue because it's basically an idiotic comment.

 

Essentially: when people are involved, there will be occasions where human error causes a crap outcome. No matter where/what etc; that's the fact of the matter.

The risk minimisation approach to this is to improve systems to filter those out as much as possible, with the realisation that on occasion, all the holes in the filters will line up and the brown stuff will hit the (vestas manufactured?) rotating blades. That's the "swiss cheese model" people talk about. When that happens, or other random variables dump you in it regardless, you have drills to rescue the situation as well as possible-hence the evacuation drills taped to the bulkheads of VTR that you can see in the VO65 walkthrough vid.

 

Much has also been mentioned about what a good crew these guys are, with an undertone of disbelief that this happened to them of any of the teams. Interspersed with: "theyre muppets/numpties/should never crew again/need to be shot at dawn, etc" and other useful sentiment. Even the top people can make mistakes if the system is setup against them. Or better put: even the top people make mistakes, in a faulty system they end up in bad outcomes. Usually several mistakes conspire together to that outcome. Each one of those things should seem to be controllable: the fatigue management, the dual role of the navigator, communication, the way land masses vanish when you zoom out (that seems a glaring systems issue to my uneducated mind)-but when the holes line up-you end up in the poo.

 

Blatant disregard for the systems: putting you and others in situations of increased risk? Now: that's negligence.

 

Blame, recrimination, scapegoating...all make some people feel better but at the end of the day only serves to ruin a person who usually genuinely was trying their best and allows a broken system to continue. If this isn't looked into and the mechanisms that led to it addressed, it will happen again. No matter how good the teams are. After all-2 other teams alluded to luck that they realised late in the piece that they were shaving the shoals a little closely. To my mind this screams a systems issue.

 

This has happened to Vestas. Good, skilled professionals have made an error b/c they are human. Otherwise we'd have robots steering these thing and where's the fun in that? Following this disaster, they've clicked instantly into what appears to be an incredibly well managed crisis mode without loss of life or injury...and then they've gone back when it's safe to secure the environmentally damaging equipment from the boat. That displays monumental professionalism and planning. They didn't remember that by accident-someone planned this months ago, hoping never to need it. Unfortunately they did.

 

They're good sailors and good people. Good people fuck up bc they're human. They didn't plan on running aground, its unlikely to be a great outcome for them or the people depending on the team (sponsors/families etc). Though if properly managed, this could be turned into a success story of sorts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

feel free to have that opinion! i have definatly another - the are clearly not good sailors and i repeat the skipper and navigator should go back to school. they are a new generation young navigator who probably never learnt /had to log his position on a paper chart every hour. this is a big fuckup and a mistake like this simply should never happen! expecially with a fully pro crew. i assume the root of the accident is to rely too much on modern technique and to have forgotten/or never learnt the basics of proper seamanship/navigation.

and just because most people here are very nice and maybe good friends one should still call this what it is...

 

Clearly not good sailors? Whatever you are smoking you should share it around, that's some good stuff. Nico has won multiple world titles in the 505s and 49ers. He's done a couple of laps of the globe including 2nd overall with Camper in the last Volvo. If he's your idea of a shit sailor I'm struggling to imagine what someone would need to have done to be considered a rock star.

 

 

>Lot of people saying both Chris and the navigator will never get a job again.? In fact this was on the front page of SA in the article. Just wondering if everybody shares that view..?

 

Pure A grade bullshit. The kind of people who hire guys like Nico and Wouter know better than to freak out over mistakes because everyone makes mistakes. It's what you do after the mistake that counts and I'm pretty sure that the Vestas crew have done all the right things since the accident.

 

I think Nico will have had the time sitting on that Isle in the middle of nowhere to become better for the accident. Just wondering if ran over a bunch of chinamen before he went sailing? That's some serious bad luck. I know I have made one or 2 navigational mistakes but it's what you learn from them that makes you better.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@supine of course they are great sailors in terms of going fast - they are the best in the world - my point is the are great racers but not great in seamanship - not their fault - its a new time and a new way of ocean racing....i find it unbelievable that they only have one or two realy large scale paper charts on board - i read it somewhere here in the forum - if this is true it qualifies in my opinion as gross negligence alone....i know you guys mostly disagree - but i have skippered and navigatored many deliveries and ocean races and i would never not put my position on a paper chart every hour - write a proper logbook brief the watch captain and look very closly along the prospective rhumpline...ofcourse even then one can run aground and i have run aground before - BUT to hit a 20 mile long chartered reef at full speed and not having altered course three hours before.....come on guys....especially as on a fully pro boat at least two or thre people should cross check their respective navigation....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@supine of course they are great sailors in terms of going fast - they are the best in the world - my point is the are great racers but not great in seamanship - not their fault - its a new time and a new way of ocean racing....i find it unbelievable that they only have one or two realy large scale paper charts on board - i read it somewhere here in the forum - if this is true it qualifies in my opinion as gross negligence alone....i know you guys mostly disagree - but i have skippered and navigatored many deliveries and ocean races and i would never not put my position on a paper chart every hour - write a proper logbook brief the watch captain and look very closly along the prospective rhumpline...ofcourse even then one can run aground and i have run aground before - BUT to hit a 20 mile long chartered reef at full speed and not having altered course three hours before.....come on guys....especially as on a fully pro boat at least two or thre people should cross check their respective navigation....

 

I don't get it, you tell us how it's supposed to be done and then admit to running aground. So your foolproof methods of navigation are actually fucking bullshit.

 

And if you want to talk seamanship, let's talk about the large gonads on Nico doing things like swimming around underwater in the bilge of a sinking boat trying to hook up the pumps to batteries, bypassing the screwed electrical panel (http://www.sailing.org/news/21245.php).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Let's be specific here. Navigating a successful Volvo Ocean Race team to victory is hard. Few here would know their ass from a hole in the ground with respect thereto. Navigating a Volvo Ocean race boat to avoid clearly marked reefs requires nothing more than $25.00 cell phone software and a semblance of paying attention not even required to drive a car.

 

Proximity alerts are really irrelevant. They are nice features, but this is a professional race team. Someone is supposed to be actively engaged 24/7.

 

Do you remember that family on the Lagoon 50 something that sailed into the reef somewhere in the south pacific? The parents were asleep in their cabin while the kids were watching a movie. They motor sailed right into a reef. The father lost a leg from a gash when the rigging broke free. It was a terrible, horrifying tragedy - no doubt. But there is nothing wrong with saying that perhaps the parents should not have just left the boat with no watch, etc.

 

was planning on taking some kids surfing the day their friends showed up to stay for a while in Papeete, friends shocked and quite. didn't find out for a couple of days they were watching movie, did a quick jibe in fluky airs and came below to finish the movie without a chart check. broke up slowly on the reef. remembered at once when i read the news. very sad . since then i set a quick route off the bow, zoom in, and cruise down it. every course change even mid ocean. just to be sure to be sure

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe Paul Larsen's new boat will be available.

Apart from the fact that the new boat will have almost no relationship to a V65, what makes you think he'd lend it to them??

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@supine of course they are great sailors in terms of going fast - they are the best in the world - my point is the are great racers but not great in seamanship - not their fault - its a new time and a new way of ocean racing....i find it unbelievable that they only have one or two realy large scale paper charts on board - i read it somewhere here in the forum - if this is true it qualifies in my opinion as gross negligence alone....i know you guys mostly disagree - but i have skippered and navigatored many deliveries and ocean races and i would never not put my position on a paper chart every hour - write a proper logbook brief the watch captain and look very closly along the prospective rhumpline...ofcourse even then one can run aground and i have run aground before - BUT to hit a 20 mile long chartered reef at full speed and not having altered course three hours before.....come on guys....especially as on a fully pro boat at least two or thre people should cross check their respective navigation....

I've got to ask - who on earth are you? Your opinions differ so far from everyone elses (mine included) that I'm begining to get fascinated. We've plainly got a lot to learn from a sage like yourself, not least of which where we get to 'look closely at the prospective rhumpline'.

In fact, if you'd kindly send me your sailing CV, I'd happily hire you - it would save me having to pay for my insurance policy anymore - simply wouldn't be needed.

Shame no one else would want to sail with us though....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Give it 5 years & you'll be lucky to be able to buy a chart. Sad as that may be.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Been reading a lot about "jobs which can't have failures" on this thread. I work in one of those in the medical field. Despite it being a "no failure" area people still die and they will continue because it's basically an idiotic comment.

 

Essentially: when people are involved, there will be occasions where human error causes a crap outcome. No matter where/what etc; that's the fact of the matter.

The risk minimisation approach to this is to improve systems to filter those out as much as possible, with the realisation that on occasion, all the holes in the filters will line up and the brown stuff will hit the (vestas manufactured?) rotating blades. That's the "swiss cheese model" people talk about. When that happens, or other random variables dump you in it regardless, you have drills to rescue the situation as well as possible-hence the evacuation drills taped to the bulkheads of VTR that you can see in the VO65 walkthrough vid.

 

Much has also been mentioned about what a good crew these guys are, with an undertone of disbelief that this happened to them of any of the teams. Interspersed with: "theyre muppets/numpties/should never crew again/need to be shot at dawn, etc" and other useful sentiment. Even the top people can make mistakes if the system is setup against them. Or better put: even the top people make mistakes, in a faulty system they end up in bad outcomes. Usually several mistakes conspire together to that outcome. Each one of those things should seem to be controllable: the fatigue management, the dual role of the navigator, communication, the way land masses vanish when you zoom out (that seems a glaring systems issue to my uneducated mind)-but when the holes line up-you end up in the poo.

 

Blatant disregard for the systems: putting you and others in situations of increased risk? Now: that's negligence.

 

Blame, recrimination, scapegoating...all make some people feel better but at the end of the day only serves to ruin a person who usually genuinely was trying their best and allows a broken system to continue. If this isn't looked into and the mechanisms that led to it addressed, it will happen again. No matter how good the teams are. After all-2 other teams alluded to luck that they realised late in the piece that they were shaving the shoals a little closely. To my mind this screams a systems issue.

 

This has happened to Vestas. Good, skilled professionals have made an error b/c they are human. Otherwise we'd have robots steering these thing and where's the fun in that? Following this disaster, they've clicked instantly into what appears to be an incredibly well managed crisis mode without loss of life or injury...and then they've gone back when it's safe to secure the environmentally damaging equipment from the boat. That displays monumental professionalism and planning. They didn't remember that by accident-someone planned this months ago, hoping never to need it. Unfortunately they did.

 

They're good sailors and good people. Good people fuck up bc they're human. They didn't plan on running aground, its unlikely to be a great outcome for them or the people depending on the team (sponsors/families etc). Though if properly managed, this could be turned into a success story of sorts.

Perfectly stated

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@rigo funny...dont you find it strange to hit an island at full speed? a 20 mile wide island and you you have not altered course before for 3 hours? the most realistic explanation for this is that they simply did not know that there is an island in front of them....

 

And what does this tells us? It tells us that a professional navigator and his skipper have not looked in their charts.......

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Its like expecting a Formula One driver not getting a job after a crush. Fact is both of them are too good to be overlooked in future. In fact their experience just got richer. If I mount a Volvo campaign(wish) Chris is the first one to get a call.

 

I think yours is a great post. These guys were already top class. Now they know what it feels like to get punched in the nose and kicked in the teeth.

 

They were on the back foot from the get go trying to cobble together an entry always to be short on budget and time. They were off the pace and objective about working to improve - to make it a race. Then driving the boat up on a reef in paradise for a total loss...

 

Imagine how they feel?

 

I shudder thinking about how bad they feel about losing the boat & being out of the race. And THAT is exactly why we will see these men succeed time and time again in their lives.

 

My $ is on this crew next go around. So happy no one was hurt - but look out for a team with something to prove this littered with talent.

 

“I missed 9,000 shots in my career, I’ve lost almost 300 games, 26 times I’ve been trusted with game winning shot and I missed. I failed over and over and over and over again in my life and this is why I succeeded.”

- Michael Jordan,

NBA 6 time World Champion “

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Its like expecting a Formula One driver not getting a job after a crush. Fact is both of them are too good to be overlooked in future. In fact their experience just got richer. If I mount a Volvo campaign(wish) Chris is the first one to get a call.

 

I think yours is a great post. These guys were already top class. Now they know what it feels like to get punched in the nose and kicked in the teeth.

 

They were on the back foot from the get go trying to cobble together an entry always to be short on budget and time. They were off the pace and objective about working to improve - to make it a race. Then driving the boat up on a reef in paradise for a total loss...

 

Imagine how they feel?

 

I shudder thinking about how bad they feel about losing the boat & being out of the race. And THAT is exactly why we will see these men succeed time and time again in their lives.

 

My $ is on this crew next go around. So happy no one was hurt - but look out for a team with something to prove this littered with talent.

 

“I missed 9,000 shots in my career, I’ve lost almost 300 games, 26 times I’ve been trusted with game winning shot and I missed. I failed over and over and over and over again in my life and this is why I succeeded.”

- Michael Jordan,

NBA 6 time World Champion “

 

Why did the Formula One driver crash? To avoid a spinning car in front of him, or because he was texting?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites