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PaulinVictoria

Team Vestas grounded

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The Vestas crew is getting a lot of love here.

I am a commercial pilot. If you hire me to deliver your plane and I run arrow-straight right into the side of a clearly charted mountain with every GPS device known to man in the cockpit, I somehow doubt the accident report would read "fantastic pilot and all around great guy made an understandable little error, we'll get a new plane built for him ASAP" :rolleyes:

The Vestas crew may well be great guys, but at least one or two of them did not pay attention to the THE most fundamental basics. Kind of like the Mayday I heard when a guy rammed the Bay Bridge at noon on a clear day and ripped half his bow off. Shit happens.

BTW - I bet no one cut the powerboater who attempted to move #3 with his bow any slack :P

 

temporaryinsanityII.jpg

 

All that said, the Vestas crew will sure as hell not do that TWICE. Maybe they should get another boat!

read the name Kent. He was temporarily insane. Again.

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I think everybody here believes they made a mistake. The team have admitted as much themselves.

 

We’re all waiting to hear more about the circumstances that led up to the mistake and the detail of the actual fuck up.

 

We’re not making a great song and dance about it, because if we’re honest we can’t genuinely say that we’re not capable of doing something similar if a suitable opportunity arose.

 

I feel terrible for the guys because I’m sure that they feel worse themselves. That’s not excusing them. At least they’re all still here to feel shit about it and they only lost a racing boat.

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@supine of course they are great sailors in terms of going fast - they are the best in the world - my point is the are great racers but not great in seamanship - not their fault - its a new time and a new way of ocean racing....i find it unbelievable that they only have one or two realy large scale paper charts on board - i read it somewhere here in the forum - if this is true it qualifies in my opinion as gross negligence alone....i know you guys mostly disagree - but i have skippered and navigatored many deliveries and ocean races and i would never not put my position on a paper chart every hour - write a proper logbook brief the watch captain and look very closly along the prospective rhumpline...ofcourse even then one can run aground and i have run aground before - BUT to hit a 20 mile long chartered reef at full speed and not having altered course three hours before.....come on guys....especially as on a fully pro boat at least two or thre people should cross check their respective navigation....

 

Well, I've learned a couple of cool new terms I need to work into my lexicon.

 

At the end of the day, when you're in one of the world's top OCEAN RACES and you and your crew have to WALK away from the wrecked boat to await rescue...it's a MONUMENTAL screw up. There is no question about that.

 

As to the source of that screw up? Who knows? We'll see when the facts come out.

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Nothing wrong with texting while driving, if you turn on voice recognition, and do it in a sensible spot.

The study by the Texas Transportation Institute at Texas A&M University was the first to compare voice-to-text and traditional texting on a handheld device in an actual driving environment.

 

'In each case, drivers took about twice as long to react as they did when they weren't texting,' Christine Yager, who headed the study, told Reuters.

 

'Eye contact to the roadway also decreased, no matter which texting method was used."

 

The research involved 43 participants driving along a test track without any electronic devices present.

 

The same participants then drove while texting and again while using a speech-to-text device.

 

Yager said speech-to-text actually took longer than traditional texting, due to the need to correct errors in the electronic transcription.

 

'You're still using your mind to try to think of what you're trying to say, and that by proxy causes some driving impairment, and that decreases your response time,' Yager said.

 

The biggest concern is that the driver felt safer while using voice-to-text applications instead of traditional texting, even though driving performance was equally affected, she said.

 

This may lead to a false belief that texting while driving using spoken commands is safe when in reality it is not, Yager said.

 

 

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2313500/Is-Siri-safe-Researchers-warn-using-voice-recognition-drive-just-dangerous-texting.html#ixzz3Kr6yV1dJ

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I think everybody here believes they made a mistake. The team have admitted as much themselves.

 

We’re all waiting to hear more about the circumstances that led up to the mistake and the detail of the actual fuck up.

 

We’re not making a great song and dance about it, because if we’re honest we can’t genuinely say that we’re not capable of doing something similar if a suitable opportunity arose.

 

I feel terrible for the guys because I’m sure that they feel worse themselves. That’s not excusing them. At least they’re all still here to feel shit about it and they only lost a racing boat.

.

 

....I just wanna know what happens with the mast! :)

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Someone earlier on this thread mentioned back-up paper charts… on a minimal salon space, permanently damp wet and uber cramped carbon 21st Cen’ race boat set-up…. you’re havin’ a larf surely?

 

I would think if I can manage paper charts on the modest 38 x 18 inch slide-out nav table on my own little tub, it would be possible to do so on a boat well more than twice the size...

 

 

cassensplath.jpg

 

What's that crazy contraption with all the mirrors? And how do you charge it?

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cassensplath.jpg

 

What's that crazy contraption with all the mirrors? And how do you charge it?

.

 

...I think it's for trimming cigars,no? :mellow:

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Been reading a lot about "jobs which can't have failures" on this thread. I work in one of those in the medical field. Despite it being a "no failure" area people still die and they will continue because it's basically an idiotic comment.

 

Essentially: when people are involved, there will be occasions where human error causes a crap outcome. No matter where/what etc; that's the fact of the matter.

The risk minimisation approach to this is to improve systems to filter those out as much as possible, with the realisation that on occasion, all the holes in the filters will line up and the brown stuff will hit the (vestas manufactured?) rotating blades. That's the "swiss cheese model" people talk about. When that happens, or other random variables dump you in it regardless, you have drills to rescue the situation as well as possible-hence the evacuation drills taped to the bulkheads of VTR that you can see in the VO65 walkthrough vid.

 

Much has also been mentioned about what a good crew these guys are, with an undertone of disbelief that this happened to them of any of the teams. Interspersed with: "theyre muppets/numpties/should never crew again/need to be shot at dawn, etc" and other useful sentiment. Even the top people can make mistakes if the system is setup against them. Or better put: even the top people make mistakes, in a faulty system they end up in bad outcomes. Usually several mistakes conspire together to that outcome. Each one of those things should seem to be controllable: the fatigue management, the dual role of the navigator, communication, the way land masses vanish when you zoom out (that seems a glaring systems issue to my uneducated mind)-but when the holes line up-you end up in the poo.

 

Blatant disregard for the systems: putting you and others in situations of increased risk? Now: that's negligence.

 

Blame, recrimination, scapegoating...all make some people feel better but at the end of the day only serves to ruin a person who usually genuinely was trying their best and allows a broken system to continue. If this isn't looked into and the mechanisms that led to it addressed, it will happen again. No matter how good the teams are. After all-2 other teams alluded to luck that they realised late in the piece that they were shaving the shoals a little closely. To my mind this screams a systems issue.

 

This has happened to Vestas. Good, skilled professionals have made an error b/c they are human. Otherwise we'd have robots steering these thing and where's the fun in that? Following this disaster, they've clicked instantly into what appears to be an incredibly well managed crisis mode without loss of life or injury...and then they've gone back when it's safe to secure the environmentally damaging equipment from the boat. That displays monumental professionalism and planning. They didn't remember that by accident-someone planned this months ago, hoping never to need it. Unfortunately they did.

 

They're good sailors and good people. Good people fuck up bc they're human. They didn't plan on running aground, its unlikely to be a great outcome for them or the people depending on the team (sponsors/families etc). Though if properly managed, this could be turned into a success story of sorts.

feel free to have that opinion! i have definatly another - the are clearly not good sailors and i repeat the skipper and navigator should go back to school. they are a new generation young navigator who probably never learnt /had to log his position on a paper chart every hour. this is a big fuckup and a mistake like this simply should never happen! expecially with a fully pro crew. i assume the root of the accident is to rely too much on modern technique and to have forgotten/or never learnt the basics of proper seamanship/navigation.

and just because most people here are very nice and maybe good friends one should still call this what it is...

 

You can tell all that just from what you've seen so far? Wow.

 

Imagine what you'll know tomorrow.

I guess formula 1 drivers who crash never get to drive again? WTF, I guess your shit don't stink eh, Steamer?

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Someone earlier on this thread mentioned back-up paper charts on a minimal salon space, permanently damp wet and uber cramped carbon 21st Cen race boat set-up. youre havin a larf surely?

Well, then - have yourself a larf at Will Oxley's expense...

 

:-)

 

 

Will%20Oxley%20story_500x334.jpg

 

 

I would think if I can manage paper charts on the modest 38 x 18 inch slide-out nav table on my own little tub, it would be possible to do so on a boat well more than twice the size...

 

 

cassensplath.jpg

your nav table is bigger than on a VO65. Look up the interior photos some time.

Ohh nice a cigar trimmer and solar lighter combo device. Using the sun to light your cigars really helps to preserve the flavor. Even matches can have an after taste. Though matches are better than lighters.

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The Vestas crew is getting a lot of love here.

I am a commercial pilot. If you hire me to deliver your plane and I run arrow-straight right into the side of a clearly charted mountain with every GPS device known to man in the cockpit, I somehow doubt the accident report would read "fantastic pilot and all around great guy made an understandable little error, we'll get a new plane built for him ASAP" :rolleyes:

The Vestas crew may well be great guys, but at least one or two of them did not pay attention to the THE most fundamental basics. Kind of like the Mayday I heard when a guy rammed the Bay Bridge at noon on a clear day and ripped half his bow off. Shit happens.

BTW - I bet no one cut the powerboater who attempted to move #3 with his bow any slack :P

 

>temporaryinsanityII.jpg

 

All that said, the Vestas crew will sure as hell not do that TWICE. Maybe they should get another boat!

read the name Kent. He was temporarily insane. Again.

 

No problem, that'll buff right out. Bet the driver had a headache.

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They arrived in Mauritius.

post-20594-0-01506500-1417629880_thumb.jpg

Photo: Marc Bow / Volvo Ocean Race

http://teamvestaswind.vestas.com/blog/2014/december/team-vestas-wind-arrives-in-mauritius

"Upon arrival in Mauritius, Skipper Chris Nicholson says, “The past four days have been very challenging for all of us, and I am extremely proud of the whole crew’s professionalism, composure, and endurance. It’s clear that human error is responsible for the shipwreck, there’s no avoiding that. And as skipper, I take ultimate responsibility.”"

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Well Ateam and others I hope you stay clued to your couch because what ever you will do in life you will f@ck it up at some point everyone does now and again. I hope for you when it happens to you there will not be an A hole like yourself who nails you to the proverbial wall without knowing the facts.

 

I have sailed with wouter for may years and can only tell good things about him, about his skills and about him as a person and would not hesitate to sail with him again.

Does this mean he cannot screw up .. sure he can. Do they deserve to get crucified by the likes of you before knowing the facts I don't think so. Its called morals and good manners....

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[ . . . ]

the other on GPS (which is less accurate near high coasts).

[ . . . ]

??

 

As long as the high coast is less than 15° above the horizon GPS will not be affected. With today's robust constellation a quarter of the sky could be blocked and you would still get a good GPS fix.

 

Technically, sky blockage to the south when you are at or near the North Pole could cause problems (lack of visible satellites) and similarly at the South pole.

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This is more like an F1 driver heading the wrong way out of the pit and hitting the ice cream truck in town. Just sayin :P

Or stoping in wrong box? Thanks for reminder-he should get fired, now :-)

 

from Vestas PR :

 

Albæk continues, We are considering all available options for re-joining the ocean race at a later stage. Vestas is a company that has overcome great challenges in its 35 years of existence and we aim to do so again.”

 

GO Team Vestas!

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Been reading a lot about "jobs which can't have failures" on this thread. I work in one of those in the medical field. Despite it being a "no failure" area people still die and they will continue because it's basically an idiotic comment.

 

Essentially: when people are involved, there will be occasions where human error causes a crap outcome. No matter where/what etc; that's the fact of the matter.

The risk minimisation approach to this is to improve systems to filter those out as much as possible, with the realisation that on occasion, all the holes in the filters will line up and the brown stuff will hit the (vestas manufactured?) rotating blades. That's the "swiss cheese model" people talk about. When that happens, or other random variables dump you in it regardless, you have drills to rescue the situation as well as possible-hence the evacuation drills taped to the bulkheads of VTR that you can see in the VO65 walkthrough vid.

 

Much has also been mentioned about what a good crew these guys are, with an undertone of disbelief that this happened to them of any of the teams. Interspersed with: "theyre muppets/numpties/should never crew again/need to be shot at dawn, etc" and other useful sentiment. Even the top people can make mistakes if the system is setup against them. Or better put: even the top people make mistakes, in a faulty system they end up in bad outcomes. Usually several mistakes conspire together to that outcome. Each one of those things should seem to be controllable: the fatigue management, the dual role of the navigator, communication, the way land masses vanish when you zoom out (that seems a glaring systems issue to my uneducated mind)-but when the holes line up-you end up in the poo.

 

Blatant disregard for the systems: putting you and others in situations of increased risk? Now: that's negligence.

 

Blame, recrimination, scapegoating...all make some people feel better but at the end of the day only serves to ruin a person who usually genuinely was trying their best and allows a broken system to continue. If this isn't looked into and the mechanisms that led to it addressed, it will happen again. No matter how good the teams are. After all-2 other teams alluded to luck that they realised late in the piece that they were shaving the shoals a little closely. To my mind this screams a systems issue.

 

This has happened to Vestas. Good, skilled professionals have made an error b/c they are human. Otherwise we'd have robots steering these thing and where's the fun in that? Following this disaster, they've clicked instantly into what appears to be an incredibly well managed crisis mode without loss of life or injury...and then they've gone back when it's safe to secure the environmentally damaging equipment from the boat. That displays monumental professionalism and planning. They didn't remember that by accident-someone planned this months ago, hoping never to need it. Unfortunately they did.

 

They're good sailors and good people. Good people fuck up bc they're human. They didn't plan on running aground, its unlikely to be a great outcome for them or the people depending on the team (sponsors/families etc). Though if properly managed, this could be turned into a success story of sorts.

feel free to have that opinion! i have definatly another - the are clearly not good sailors and i repeat the skipper and navigator should go back to school. they are a new generation young navigator who probably never learnt /had to log his position on a paper chart every hour. this is a big fuckup and a mistake like this simply should never happen! expecially with a fully pro crew. i assume the root of the accident is to rely too much on modern technique and to have forgotten/or never learnt the basics of proper seamanship/navigation.

and just because most people here are very nice and maybe good friends one should still call this what it is...

 

You can tell all that just from what you've seen so far? Wow.

 

Imagine what you'll know tomorrow.

I guess formula 1 drivers who crash never get to drive again? WTF, I guess your shit don't stink eh, Steamer?

 

Yup... When some hack third string bench warmer gets a shot and cocks it up, he gets benched for the next three years. On the rare occasion when Peyton Manning cocks it up, they give him the ball back. Why? 'Cause he's Payton Fucking Manning, that's why. Everyone knows that's how it is, and the only ones bitter about it are the third string benchwarmers.

 

No one would let a bunch of hack sailors on to the shore team of a VOR boat, much less on the sailing team. To suppose otherwise is just silly.

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I would think if I can manage paper charts on the modest 38 x 18 inch slide-out nav table on my own little tub, it would be possible to do so on a boat well more than twice the size...

 

 

cassensplath.jpg

 

What's that crazy contraption with all the mirrors? And how do you charge it?

 

LOL! nah, that's just some toy to play with in the event I ever get bored... Truth be told, that happens very rarely... :-))

 

Books are usually sufficient to keep me amused underway... But you know me, I'm a dinosaur, and still prefer the real things as opposed to the Kindle versions... :-)

 

 

your nav table is bigger than on a VO65. Look up the interior photos some time.

 

So, because the nav stations on these boats are of insufficient size to accommodate paper charts, that should preclude one from ever stealing a glance at one?

 

Will%20Oxley%20story_500x334.jpg

 

 

Or, do you suppose that one of the eventual outcomes of this incident, might just be the giving of some consideration to providing the navigators on these boats just a bit more space to do their work? They used to have a bit more room, after all...

 

 

B0AFC68F8D0CFC87802570E6002EDAA5_topl_1.

 

Just to be clear, my original reference to the value of paper charts in being able to assess the bigger picture at a glance was made in response to this astonishing comment from DONGFENG:

 

That was the reflection of Charles Caudrelier just after passing the Cargados archipelago. Shortly after we gybed, a bit later than our closest rivals, right at the time of the big wind shift, but without anticipating that this shift would be so strong that it would take us onto a direct route to the island.

A little moment of hesitation during which we asked which side we should pass.

“A small navigation error which cost us two to three miles.” It could have been worse.

Charles had noticed this archipelago a few days ago. But it’s worth noting that it’s actually pretty hard to find. In fact, to see it on our electronic charts, you have to zoom right in on top of it. But how and why would you zoom into it if you don’t know it’s there in the first place?

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I am genuinely puzzled by this statement from Yann Riou. This Cargados archipelago shows up on the basic world map I have up on the office wall. So if it is "pretty hard to find" in these boats' electronic charts, and "you have to zoom right in" to find it, either the navigators are so focused on meteorology that they are looking at the whole Indian Ocean all the time or there are somen pretty fundamental problems with their charting software.

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I am genuinely puzzled by this statement from Yann Riou. This Cargados archipelago shows up on the basic world map I have up on the office wall. So if it is "pretty hard to find" in these boats' electronic charts, and "you have to zoom right in" to find it, either the navigators are so focused on meteorology that they are looking at the whole Indian Ocean all the time or there are somen pretty fundamental problems with their charting software.

 

Well if you look at the PC in the picture of the nav station right above your post (is that a current VOR boat with what looks like an antique raymarine chartplotter?) it appears to be running Expedition.

 

It's hard to tell, but it seems that the navigator has done what I usually do in Expedition - he has basically turned off the various shades of blue that indicate different depths

 

If you do this, and look at the chart in the region of the reef, all you see is a single black line - a depth contour at 100M i think - for several zoom levels, then you see more contours and soundings.

 

I don't have the detailed C-map chart for this region, but even assuming he had it, he still would see exactly what i see for several zoom levels before the display switches to the detailed charts

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here is what it looks like through various zoom levels with the blue shading turned off

 

depths in metres

post-290-0-59743700-1417638459_thumb.png

post-290-0-56134400-1417638489_thumb.png

post-290-0-63737600-1417638515_thumb.png

post-290-0-20206600-1417638541_thumb.png

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here are the rest until it would load the detailed chart

 

edit - if i look at north america - where i have the detailed chart, it loads the detailed chart at zoom 6, so 6 and 7 may be different than i have posted for systems with the detailed chart loaded

 

post-290-0-78234200-1417638611_thumb.pngpost-290-0-71924100-1417638625_thumb.pngpost-290-0-84671800-1417638644_thumb.png

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very impressed with the amount of gear Vestas took out of the boat: comms tower, boom, sails, etc. The ship must be in a pretty stable position to be able to dismount that, I reckon.

 

Looking forward to hearing Vestas company decision on next steps. Even if they manage to come back after missing two or three legs, their marketing folks will need to create a convincing story for sailing in a race where you can only end up in last position. Maybe Volvo decides to build #8 and lease it to them. With everything in place, it takes 7 weeks to build a VO65, but sure, nothing shall be in place currently, and the personnel/boatyards are surely busy (most of them working for the race boatyard at each stopover).

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I am genuinely puzzled by this statement from Yann Riou. This Cargados archipelago shows up on the basic world map I have up on the office wall. So if it is "pretty hard to find" in these boats' electronic charts, and "you have to zoom right in" to find it, either the navigators are so focused on meteorology that they are looking at the whole Indian Ocean all the time or there are somen pretty fundamental problems with their charting software.

 

Well if you look at the PC in the picture of the nav station right above your post (is that a current VOR boat with what looks like an antique raymarine chartplotter?) it appears to be running Expedition.

 

It's hard to tell, but it seems that the navigator has done what I usually do in Expedition - he has basically turned off the various shades of blue that indicate different depths

 

If you do this, and look at the chart in the region of the reef, all you see is a single black line - a depth contour at 100M i think - for several zoom levels, then you see more contours and soundings.

 

I don't have the detailed C-map chart for this region, but even assuming he had it, he still would see exactly what i see for several zoom levels before the display switches to the detailed charts

Thanks for the explanation.

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Jon wrote: "Or, do you suppose that one of the eventual outcomes of this incident, might just be the giving of some consideration to providing the navigators on these boats just a bit more space to do their work? They used to have a bit more room, after all..."

 

Now that is a systems problem, and one of the items to be considered in an effective post-event response

 

Stalin had the luxury of stating, "the man is the problem. No man? No problem." But the goal is to prevent this from happening again, not castigate and discard seasoned veterans who posess a rare and valuable skill set. That kind of response actually makes accidents more likely, since you get rid of talented individuals, and must replace them with folks of inferior talent or experience.

 

Stating with surety that you know best and that it would never happen to you, without a more curious and encompassing approach to the errors made, probably means that you are incompetent in leadership roles having to respond effectively to mistakes and errors by a team. It also means you risk being perceived to be an arrogant self righteous prick who is dangerous in ways you will never recognize until it is too late because of how you approach problems.

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very impressed with the amount of gear Vestas took out of the boat: comms tower, boom, sails, etc. The ship must be in a pretty stable position to be able to dismount that, I reckon.

No kidding. They probably didn't have a crane to get that stuff the boat either.

 

10153910_10152921746152437_1241503847464

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They arrived in Mauritius.

 

attachicon.gifv10712628_603069969820033_8742212698835256421_o.jpg

 

Photo: Marc Bow / Volvo Ocean Race

 

http://teamvestaswind.vestas.com/blog/2014/december/team-vestas-wind-arrives-in-mauritius

 

"Upon arrival in Mauritius, Skipper Chris Nicholson says, “The past four days have been very challenging for all of us, and I am extremely proud of the whole crew’s professionalism, composure, and endurance. It’s clear that human error is responsible for the shipwreck, there’s no avoiding that. And as skipper, I take ultimate responsibility.”"

 

Now the sail limitations make a lot of sense.

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I am genuinely puzzled by this statement from Yann Riou. This Cargados archipelago shows up on the basic world map I have up on the office wall. So if it is "pretty hard to find" in these boats' electronic charts, and "you have to zoom right in" to find it, either the navigators are so focused on meteorology that they are looking at the whole Indian Ocean all the time or there are somen pretty fundamental problems with their charting software.

 

The statement is a matter of throwing them a bone.

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The Vestas crew is getting a lot of love here.

I am a commercial pilot. If you hire me to deliver your plane and I run arrow-straight right into the side of a clearly charted mountain with every GPS device known to man in the cockpit, I somehow doubt the accident report would read "fantastic pilot and all around great guy made an understandable little error, we'll get a new plane built for him ASAP" :rolleyes:

The Vestas crew may well be great guys, but at least one or two of them did not pay attention to the THE most fundamental basics. Kind of like the Mayday I heard when a guy rammed the Bay Bridge at noon on a clear day and ripped half his bow off. Shit happens.

BTW - I bet no one cut the powerboater who attempted to move #3 with his bow any slack :P

 

>temporaryinsanityII.jpg

 

All that said, the Vestas crew will sure as hell not do that TWICE. Maybe they should get another

boat!

read the name Kent. He was temporarily insane. Again.

No problem, that'll buff right out. Bet the driver PROJECTILE had a headache.

 

Fixed that for you.

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I am genuinely puzzled by this statement from Yann Riou. This Cargados archipelago shows up on the basic world map I have up on the office wall. So if it is "pretty hard to find" in these boats' electronic charts, and "you have to zoom right in" to find it, either the navigators are so focused on meteorology that they are looking at the whole Indian Ocean all the time or there are somen pretty fundamental problems with their charting software.

 

Charting systems drop out details as you zoom out. Somewhere along the development of vector map systems the decision has been made to use the average depth. After all who cares about the stuff close to or above the the surface? So unless you know todays code for "Here there be dragons!" (aka not fully zoomed in) you can miss an impassible 50x5 km feature. Until you hit it that is.

 

And that is what I meant a few pages ago with software design problem. IMNSHO the existence of stuff close to the surface is the interesting bit that should not get dropped out.

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What are those?

 

A mystery to everyone aboard.

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Good piece from Elaine Bunting.

http://www.yachtingworld.com/blogs/elaine-bunting/volvo-ocean-race-yacht-bristling-technology-hit-well-known-reef/

 

"The reef the Clipper yacht hit, Gosong Mampango, is 1,000m east of its charted position, and an associated reef to the south is two miles to the north-east of where it was charted. The electronic charts did not carry the warning that the paper charts did that the reef was almost a mile east of its charted position."

 

This could be a stupid question but could anyone please explain why they don't move it on the chart? Presume it something to do with lat/long/raster mapping or whatever?

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What are those?

 

A mystery to everyone aboard.

 

Well-played sir.

 

I thought they were photos the bowman was snapping as they neared the reef.

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very impressed with the amount of gear Vestas took out of the boat: comms tower, boom, sails, etc. The ship must be in a pretty stable position to be able to dismount that, I reckon.

From what I understand, if it could be unbolted, carried and was worth more than $1000 Euro, it came off. The boat is basically the hull structure, mast, keel fin & engine. A credit to the professionalism of the team. They could have very easily had just walked away and most would have understood.

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very impressed with the amount of gear Vestas took out of the boat: comms tower, boom, sails, etc. The ship must be in a pretty stable position to be able to dismount that, I reckon.

From what I understand, if it could be unbolted, carried and was worth more than $1000 Euro, it came off. The boat is basically the hull structure, mast, keel fin & engine. A credit to the professionalism of the team. They could have very easily had just walked away and most would have understood.

Impressed? They are paid sailors on a contract so whilst they are being paid they should work as instructed. You know, they did write off the bosses boat, so you'd want to bring him back as much as you can.

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shit Comanche was built in four. A VO 65 should be a lot simpler.

They already have the tooling and the bugs/engineering largely ironed out. It's certainly achievable. Be on the starting line at Itajai?

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[ . . . ]

the other on GPS (which is less accurate near high coasts).

[ . . . ]

??

 

As long as the high coast is less than 15° above the horizon GPS will not be affected. With today's robust constellation a quarter of the sky could be blocked and you would still get a good GPS fix.

 

Technically, sky blockage to the south when you are at or near the North Pole could cause problems (lack of visible satellites) and similarly at the South pole.

 

Portuguese coast is high there, and at night taking the sextant out to see how high the coast exactly is a bit hard.

And I am not convinced by your explanation, could be that I am too stupid.

Doing a lot of mountain biking lately, in summer almost all gps tracks at barren high altitude in the Alps. And behold, the gps is way of often.

Or I have really done 200km/hr descending a Col.

And getting into forested area is even worse for reception.

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I am genuinely puzzled by this statement from Yann Riou. This Cargados archipelago shows up on the basic world map I have up on the office wall. So if it is "pretty hard to find" in these boats' electronic charts, and "you have to zoom right in" to find it, either the navigators are so focused on meteorology that they are looking at the whole Indian Ocean all the time or there are somen pretty fundamental problems with their charting software.

Charting systems drop out details as you zoom out. Somewhere along the development of vector map systems the decision has been made to use the average depth. After all who cares about the stuff close to or above the the surface? So unless you know todays code for "Here there be dragons!" (aka not fully zoomed in) you can miss an impassible 50x5 km feature. Until you hit it that is.

 

And that is what I meant a few pages ago with software design problem. IMNSHO the existence of stuff close to the surface is the interesting bit that should not get dropped out.

which has been my thought either their is a user interface error and if you look at the above expidtion screen shots there clearly is or there is a work flow issue.

The simple fix is a screen showing current area 75-100 miles around the boat. Always zoomed in . think turn by turn directions level of zoom.

 

Second easy way is to train all the navigators to add a zoom in and look ahead every hour to their workflow.

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shit Comanche was built in four. A VO 65 should be a lot simpler.

They already have the tooling and the bugs/engineering largely ironed out. It's certainly achievable. Be on the starting line at Itajai?

 

Would be so badass!

 

What about this idea? Worked for Caterham! http://www1.skysports.com/f1/news/17583/9554099/caterham-are-launching-a-crowdfunding-project-to-make-the-abu-dhabi-gp

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[ . . . ]

the other on GPS (which is less accurate near high coasts).

[ . . . ]

??

 

As long as the high coast is less than 15° above the horizon GPS will not be affected. With today's robust constellation a quarter of the sky could be blocked and you would still get a good GPS fix.

 

Technically, sky blockage to the south when you are at or near the North Pole could cause problems (lack of visible satellites) and similarly at the South pole.

 

Portuguese coast is high there, and at night taking the sextant out to see how high the coast exactly is a bit hard.

And I am not convinced by your explanation, could be that I am too stupid.

Doing a lot of mountain biking lately, in summer almost all gps tracks at barren high altitude in the Alps. And behold, the gps is way of often.

Or I have really done 200km/hr descending a Col.

And getting into forested area is even worse for reception.

 

 

how old is your GPS?

 

modern receivers rarely have these problems

 

Also, when Galileo gets more satellites up, you should have better positions in europe, because the constellation is optimized for higher latitudes than GPS.

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Yes, glad someone else also recognized that chart as a sail crossover chart, not the kind of "chart" everyone is wondering aboutCrossoverChart_main.jpg

 

 

What are those?


Sail Selection Polars in laminated plastic.

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shit Comanche was built in four. A VO 65 should be a lot simpler.

They already have the tooling and the bugs/engineering largely ironed out. It's certainly achievable. Be on the starting line at Itajai?

 

Would be so badass!

 

What about this idea? Worked for Caterham! http://www1.skysports.com/f1/news/17583/9554099/caterham-are-launching-a-crowdfunding-project-to-make-the-abu-dhabi-gp

.

 

...perhaps crowdfunding is an idea,,,,but what's the insurance status with the Vestas boat??

 

...

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My understanding from a highly reliable source was if it could be unbolted, carried, and worth more than an estimated $1000 Euro it came off. The pedestals may still be there, but apparently the winches, drive shafts and gearboxes have all been removed. Basically, the boat has been gutted.

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Yes, glad someone else also recognized that chart as a sail crossover chart, not the kind of "chart" everyone is wondering aboutCrossoverChart_main.jpg

 

 

What are those?

Sail Selection Polars in laminated plastic.

 

Wow - talk about learning a lot around here sometimes. I had no idea these existed.

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Yes, glad someone else also recognized that chart as a sail crossover chart, not the kind of "chart" everyone is wondering aboutCrossoverChart_main.jpg

 

 

What are those?

Sail Selection Polars in laminated plastic.

 

Wow - talk about learning a lot around here sometimes. I had no idea these existed.

.

...nice to see such detail....amazing how little overlap there is, hence the # of sailchanges.

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Fwiw, I should have made it clear that's just the first sail crossover image I found as an example, unlikely to be from a V65.

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What are those?

Sail Selection Polars in laminated plastic.

 

Wow - talk about learning a lot around here sometimes. I had no idea these existed.

 

Top teams - especially the IMOCA fleet and the record-breaking multis - spend a ton of time developing and refining these and guard them from prying eyes. It's the only thing I've been prevented from shooting on Banque Populaire V and a half dozen other boats.

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My understanding from a highly reliable source was if it could be unbolted, carried, and worth more than an estimated $1000 Euro it came off. The pedestals may still be there, but apparently the winches, drive shafts and gearboxes have all been removed. Basically, the boat has been gutted.

Remember that Rob Salthouse hails from several gens of world class boatbuilders. Stripping is much faster and easier than fitting. Good on them.

 

I imagine they might just tie a chain around it and drag it into deep water and let it sink to the bottom. Best to do it at night.

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Fwiw, I should have made it clear that's just the first sail crossover image I found as an example, unlikely to be from a V65.

Definitely not, since VO65 crossover will include MHO / FRO, Trinquette (or staysail), ballast configurations, reef and possibly cant and/or much more.

 

These are usually generated in-house at Norths and with wind speed axis inverted so J1 is at the top. For most teams, adjustments are made in collusion with the Norths agent / loft.

 

Also, they don't carry A1/A2 and start at A3

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Anyone know what software it is or an equivalent for us amateurs to develop our own

It is from www.sailingperformance.com

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The tone of this thread was to let Vestas speak as to what went wrong and not rush to judge / throw under a bus.

We are over 72 hours later and the press releases coming from Vestas are fucking PR bullshit garbage.

 

I'd like to let them get off the beach before the interrogations begin. You OK with that?

 

Agree

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i want to see them build a new boat in 3 months and rejoin the race. How awesome would that be?

 

That would be really cool. Its unlikely, but what would be even more awesome would be to salvage this boat, ship it to AUS or NZ, fix it and get it back in the race.

 

Again, that seems unlikely at this point. But if they did, they would have to rename it to be "The Phoenix".

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I agree would be good to see them get a 70 & get back out there. Give them a pursuit start penalty & obviously not eligible for the podium but give them there own podium make it a bit light hearted.

 

Or:

 

Give all the boats some Vestas signage & split the crew up in the remaining boats 1 to each boat. Keep the sponsors happy.

 

There's a VO70 sitting in Abu Dhabi on the hard as we speak.

 

IMG_1393_zpsbcc6db98.jpg

 

Maybe ADOR will let Vestas borrow that for a while.

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So, you would re-use the wings from a crashed airplane too, I guess. Idiot. I'll tell you what - if they salvage the mast and re-use it, I'll donate AUD 1K to a charity of your choice. Feel free to call me on it. You don't even have to offer to reciprocate.

 

I will say that the mere fact that the mast is still standing in one piece is testament to design and construction (as is the fact that the hull didn't disintegrate on impact - as Estar said earlier), but that doesn't mean it's good to re-use.

.

 

.....I guess I'd resemble the comment if I was planning on recycling airplane wings or if the spar takes any direct impacts with items harder than it has so far <_<

 

...but otherwise I'll quote you for posteriority.

 

...do you want to qualify what counts as 're-use' of the mast...will 'flagpole' do? :P

 

 

...in any case with Vestas' recent statement,it sounds like game-ON,,in many more ways than a boatrace :)

 

Something tells me they are probably not going to re-use these either.....

 

Montana_Train_Derailment.jpg

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I am genuinely puzzled by this statement from Yann Riou. This Cargados archipelago shows up on the basic world map I have up on the office wall. So if it is "pretty hard to find" in these boats' electronic charts, and "you have to zoom right in" to find it, either the navigators are so focused on meteorology that they are looking at the whole Indian Ocean all the time or there are somen pretty fundamental problems with their charting software.

Charting systems drop out details as you zoom out. Somewhere along the development of vector map systems the decision has been made to use the average depth. After all who cares about the stuff close to or above the the surface? So unless you know todays code for "Here there be dragons!" (aka not fully zoomed in) you can miss an impassible 50x5 km feature. Until you hit it that is.

 

And that is what I meant a few pages ago with software design problem. IMNSHO the existence of stuff close to the surface is the interesting bit that should not get dropped out.

which has been my thought either their is a user interface error and if you look at the above expidtion screen shots there clearly is or there is a work flow issue.

The simple fix is a screen showing current area 75-100 miles around the boat. Always zoomed in . think turn by turn directions level of zoom.

 

Second easy way is to train all the navigators to add a zoom in and look ahead every hour to their workflow.

 

 

 

 

Good piece from Elaine Bunting.

http://www.yachtingworld.com/blogs/elaine-bunting/volvo-ocean-race-yacht-bristling-technology-hit-well-known-reef/

 

"The reef the Clipper yacht hit, Gosong Mampango, is 1,000m east of its charted position, and an associated reef to the south is two miles to the north-east of where it was charted. The electronic charts did not carry the warning that the paper charts did that the reef was almost a mile east of its charted position."

 

This could be a stupid question but could anyone please explain why they don't move it on the chart? Presume it something to do with lat/long/raster mapping or whatever?

yes just plain economics.... these charts are of remote places and there are literally probably millions of them....

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I agree would be good to see them get a 70 & get back out there. Give them a pursuit start penalty & obviously not eligible for the podium but give them there own podium make it a bit light hearted.

Or:

Give all the boats some Vestas signage & split the crew up in the remaining boats 1 to each boat. Keep the sponsors happy.

There's a VO70 sitting in Abu Dhabi on the hard as we speak.

 

IMG_1393_zpsbcc6db98.jpg

 

Maybe ADOR will let Vestas borrow that for a while.

Agree it would be osum, however it would swiftly show up speed differences between VO65 & VO70, which wouldn't be popular. Not commenting on what they might be (can of worms and Monster Project in the RBIR doesn't count).

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That's why I suggested a pursuit start. I think of everything - call me dale the ideas man.

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I am genuinely puzzled by this statement from Yann Riou. This Cargados archipelago shows up on the basic world map I have up on the office wall. So if it is "pretty hard to find" in these boats' electronic charts, and "you have to zoom right in" to find it, either the navigators are so focused on meteorology that they are looking at the whole Indian Ocean all the time or there are somen pretty fundamental problems with their charting software.

Charting systems drop out details as you zoom out. Somewhere along the development of vector map systems the decision has been made to use the average depth. After all who cares about the stuff close to or above the the surface? So unless you know todays code for "Here there be dragons!" (aka not fully zoomed in) you can miss an impassible 50x5 km feature. Until you hit it that is.

 

And that is what I meant a few pages ago with software design problem. IMNSHO the existence of stuff close to the surface is the interesting bit that should not get dropped out.

which has been my thought either their is a user interface error and if you look at the above expidtion screen shots there clearly is or there is a work flow issue.

The simple fix is a screen showing current area 75-100 miles around the boat. Always zoomed in . think turn by turn directions level of zoom.

 

Second easy way is to train all the navigators to add a zoom in and look ahead every hour to their workflow.

this still does not solve the inaccuracy of the the charts (wether paper of electronics) in these remote regions. But there could indeed well be a workflow issue, other solutions could be to have a separate system/separate screen that just shows the boat and a zoomed in chart.

what could cause this to be more an issue now then in the past is the fact that the racing gets tighter and tighter and so the pressure is constantly on to out manoeuvre one another and this together with the false sense of accuracy these charts give could lead to teams cutting it to close..... off course still second guessing here... but this with the article from Elaine Bunting seems very plausible

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Been reading a lot about "jobs which can't have failures" on this thread. I work in one of those in the medical field. Despite it being a "no failure" area people still die and they will continue because it's basically an idiotic comment.

 

Essentially: when people are involved, there will be occasions where human error causes a crap outcome. No matter where/what etc; that's the fact of the matter.

The risk minimisation approach to this is to improve systems to filter those out as much as possible, with the realisation that on occasion, all the holes in the filters will line up and the brown stuff will hit the (vestas manufactured?) rotating blades. That's the "swiss cheese model" people talk about. When that happens, or other random variables dump you in it regardless, you have drills to rescue the situation as well as possible-hence the evacuation drills taped to the bulkheads of VTR that you can see in the VO65 walkthrough vid.

 

Much has also been mentioned about what a good crew these guys are, with an undertone of disbelief that this happened to them of any of the teams. Interspersed with: "theyre muppets/numpties/should never crew again/need to be shot at dawn, etc" and other useful sentiment. Even the top people can make mistakes if the system is setup against them. Or better put: even the top people make mistakes, in a faulty system they end up in bad outcomes. Usually several mistakes conspire together to that outcome. Each one of those things should seem to be controllable: the fatigue management, the dual role of the navigator, communication, the way land masses vanish when you zoom out (that seems a glaring systems issue to my uneducated mind)-but when the holes line up-you end up in the poo.

 

Blatant disregard for the systems: putting you and others in situations of increased risk? Now: that's negligence.

 

Blame, recrimination, scapegoating...all make some people feel better but at the end of the day only serves to ruin a person who usually genuinely was trying their best and allows a broken system to continue. If this isn't looked into and the mechanisms that led to it addressed, it will happen again. No matter how good the teams are. After all-2 other teams alluded to luck that they realised late in the piece that they were shaving the shoals a little closely. To my mind this screams a systems issue.

 

This has happened to Vestas. Good, skilled professionals have made an error b/c they are human. Otherwise we'd have robots steering these thing and where's the fun in that? Following this disaster, they've clicked instantly into what appears to be an incredibly well managed crisis mode without loss of life or injury...and then they've gone back when it's safe to secure the environmentally damaging equipment from the boat. That displays monumental professionalism and planning. They didn't remember that by accident-someone planned this months ago, hoping never to need it. Unfortunately they did.

 

They're good sailors and good people. Good people fuck up bc they're human. They didn't plan on running aground, its unlikely to be a great outcome for them or the people depending on the team (sponsors/families etc). Though if properly managed, this could be turned into a success story of sorts.

feel free to have that opinion! i have definatly another - the are clearly not good sailors and i repeat the skipper and navigator should go back to school. they are a new generation young navigator who probably never learnt /had to log his position on a paper chart every hour. this is a big fuckup and a mistake like this simply should never happen! expecially with a fully pro crew. i assume the root of the accident is to rely too much on modern technique and to have forgotten/or never learnt the basics of proper seamanship/navigation.

and just because most people here are very nice and maybe good friends one should still call this what it is...

 

You're an idiot. The world has moved on. Yes they fucked up. But it wasn't because they weren't using paper charts and doing celestial navigation.

 

The early days of aviation navigation was also done with paper charts, sextants, dead reckoning and such. Today's professional aviators, both military and civilian, rely wholly on electronic navigation and modern techniques. Airline pilots don't spread out paper charts during a transatlantic crossing and take sextant shots of the moon anymore.

 

Modern electronics and navigation techniques ARE reliable as there are enough backups to the backups that a total failure is unlikely. The human failure on Vestas, IMHO, wasn't because of lack of knowledge of basics/proper seamanship or over-reliance on electronics. It was likely a combo of fatigue, poor planning, poor communication among the crew and potentially a breakdown in established watch changeover procedures.

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Anyone know what software it is or an equivalent for us amateurs to develop our own

many use expedition for routing, which lets you pull in all data from boat sensors, electronic charts, grab files both weather and current,polars, ais targets, radar etc.

Don't think it is the software though, expedition lets you switch between different states with the click of a button.

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That F1 cockpit is amazing

 

Meh.....

 

1090797.jpg

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Something tells me they are probably not going to re-use these either.....

 

Montana_Train_Derailment.jpg

 

Wow... anybody know the story behind this pic?

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Something tells me they are probably not going to re-use these either.....

 

Montana_Train_Derailment.jpg

 

Wow... anybody know the story behind this pic?

 

http://www.usatoday.com/story/todayinthesky/2014/07/05/train-derailment-spills-boeing-737-fueslages-into-river/12258639/

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I thought it could have been some kind of bizarre crash testing...

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So, you would re-use the wings from a crashed airplane too, I guess. Idiot. I'll tell you what - if they salvage the mast and re-use it, I'll donate AUD 1K to a charity of your choice. Feel free to call me on it. You don't even have to offer to reciprocate.

 

I will say that the mere fact that the mast is still standing in one piece is testament to design and construction (as is the fact that the hull didn't disintegrate on impact - as Estar said earlier), but that doesn't mean it's good to re-use.

.

 

.....I guess I'd resemble the comment if I was planning on recycling airplane wings or if the spar takes any direct impacts with items harder than it has so far <_<

 

...but otherwise I'll quote you for posteriority.

 

...do you want to qualify what counts as 're-use' of the mast...will 'flagpole' do? :P

 

 

...in any case with Vestas' recent statement,it sounds like game-ON,,in many more ways than a boatrace :)

 

Something tells me they are probably not going to re-use these either.....

.

 

 

......what a loss that would be!! ...those look like perfectly useful fuselages :P

 

...nice pic you found...very appropriate for this traincrash thread...reminds me of a movie...''trains,planes,and oceanracer sailboats' :rolleyes:

 

post-3217-0-02132100-1417686451.jpgpost-3217-0-95039500-1417686460_thumb.jpg

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So "say" they were handed a 70 and told go for it for the next few legs until they get their boat sorted or not at all.

How would this be worked?

I'm all for it as I'd hate to see a team taken out of the running entirely, but they couldn't be made eligible for prizes as that would totally defeat the one design nature of this edition.

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...Cwapp...that was a few months ago,,caused a nasty delay in Boeing's current production.....where are those fuse's now??

 

Boeing Co. said Saturday that it was assessing the damage to aircraft components that were aboard a freight train that derailed in Montana on the way to the company's plants in Washington state.

The derailment threatened to throw a wrench in the tightly choreographed, far-flung aerospace supply chain, which depends on just-in-time deliveries of giant parts by train, plane and boat to meet record demand for jetliners.

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So "say" they were handed a 70 and told go for it for the next few legs until they get their boat sorted or not at all.

How would this be worked?

I'm all for it as I'd hate to see a team taken out of the running entirely, but they couldn't be made eligible for prizes as that would totally defeat the one design nature of this edition.

 

Silly. They `win' a leg and make the 65s look slow or they blow an older boat up and make vestas look inept. Not gonna happen.

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Anyone know what software it is or an equivalent for us amateurs to develop our own

It is from www.sailingperformance.com

You can make a sailchart pretty easily in Excel...

 

The sail charts used by Expedition are just simple text files

 

In Excel, just define the cells with whatever TWS/TWA precision you want, and then fill in each cell with a particular sail

 

Start with your best guess, or one from a similar boat, and then refine the crossovers based on your experience

 

You can print out a nice color version to laminate

 

If you want to use it in Expedition, save it as a text file

 

You can edit them easily from within expedition

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So "say" they were handed a 70 and told go for it for the next few legs until they get their boat sorted or not at all.

How would this be worked?

I'm all for it as I'd hate to see a team taken out of the running entirely, but they couldn't be made eligible for prizes as that would totally defeat the one design nature of this edition.

 

Silly. They `win' a leg and make the 65s look slow or they blow an older boat up and make vestas look inept. Not gonna happen.

....I couldn't see them throwing the sail-budget on a pile of crap old girl like that for a few months..'lipstick on a pig' unfortunately. .....too much could go wrong.

You can be sure there's at least 2 spare of all components for the current VO's...
. ........the question is what stage is hull 8 at??

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@ JBSF indeed…. +1

 

Paper, paper everywhere….? Not on SCA for sure… me I’m a fan of Adrena too as it happens.

 

http://i.imgur.com/74olULw.jpg[/img]

 

Re those 737s, tough break for the build teams… but great for the insurance fine print pour overs, and lawyer shenanigans with get out of pay-up plays…

 

I worked on an avionics contract last year for Airbus, via UTC, as my uncle is a retired commercial flyer… when he found out whom I’d been working for… he told me the sorry tale regarding this A340 smash… it happened on engine run-up testing….

 

http://rue89.nouvelobs.com/sites/news/files/assets/image/2009/03/RTX2JNL.jpg

 

The ‘story’ for political correctness reasons was suppressed…

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@ JBSF indeed…. +1

 

Paper, paper everywhere….? Not on SCA for sure… me I’m a fan of Adrena too as it happens.

 

http://i.imgur.com/74olULw.jpg[/img]

 

Re those 737s, tough break for the build teams… but great for the insurance fine print pour overs, and lawyer shenanigans with get out of pay-up plays…

 

I worked on an avionics contract last year for Airbus, via UTC, as my uncle is a retired commercial flyer… when he found out whom I’d been working for… he told me the sorry tale regarding this A340 smash… it happened on engine run-up testing….

 

http://rue89.nouvelobs.com/sites/news/files/assets/image/2009/03/RTX2JNL.jpg

 

The ‘story’ for political correctness reasons was suppressed…

.

......run up testing?.....somebody must have been wondering ...''what's -that- button do?'' :mellow::rolleyes:

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The ‘story’ for political correctness reasons was suppressed…

 

But is well known. Not so much political "correctness" as simple political and commercial thugery.

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I worked on an avionics contract last year for Airbus, via UTC, as my uncle is a retired commercial flyer… when he found out whom I’d been working for… he told me the sorry tale regarding this A340 smash… it happened on engine run-up testing….

 

http://rue89.nouvelobs.com/sites/news/files/assets/image/2009/03/RTX2JNL.jpg

 

The ‘story’ for political correctness reasons was suppressed…

.

......run up testing?.....somebody must have been wondering ...''what's -that- button do?'' :mellow::rolleyes:

 

Nice coincidence: isn't Etihad the national airline of Abu Dhabi?! :huh:

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I worked on an avionics contract last year for Airbus, via UTC, as my uncle is a retired commercial flyer… when he found out whom I’d been working for… he told me the sorry tale regarding this A340 smash… it happened on engine run-up testing….

 

http://rue89.nouvelobs.com/sites/news/files/assets/image/2009/03/RTX2JNL.jpg

 

The ‘story’ for political correctness reasons was suppressed…

.

......run up testing?.....somebody must have been wondering ...''what's -that- button do?'' :mellow::rolleyes:

 

Nice coincidence: isn't Etihad the national airline of Abu Dhabi?! :huh:

.

 

. ...maybe that's Vestas explanation too! :huh: