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PaulinVictoria

Team Vestas grounded

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Unfortunately, when there's large amounts of money and careers involved, somebody gets thrown under the bus. Like or not, thats life and it's cruel. I must say looking at that grounding footage was absolutely terrifying. It did not look to me that any of the crew were wearing tethers and certainly no pfd's. If anyone was thrown overboard in the impact they would not have been able to recover them. They would have had to swim to shore assuming if they could even see where that was in pitch darkness. This could have been far worse. It's only a f**king boat at the end of the day, and insurance is for that purpose. Never feel sorry for an insurance company. If there was no risk there would be no insurance.

 

+1

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100 miles right to left. How is that center part looking now? Any indication to exercise caution?

post-12175-0-74535500-1417735016_thumb.png

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20 miles right to left. It is true that this more highly detailed version of the reef only shows at this level of zoom, but there were plenty of indicators in the others to take caution and even zoom in further.

post-12175-0-64466500-1417735051_thumb.png

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I don't have the charts installed here, but it is quite easy for individual rocks. This is why many of us like the raster Bsb charting. This is somewhat bigger though.

 

That said and without knowing any details of the event, it might be more related to sailing these boats with only 8 people. We sailed the Whitbread 60s with 11 and then 12, which was two watches of 5 and a skipper and navigator floating.

 

We did a Transpac with 8 on the 52, which was 4 x2 on rotating watches and were under-manned. So navigation becomes less of a dedicated role.

 

The Volvo boats will be a lot more boat than a 52 and the race is more demanding that the Transpac, so ...

It is a very important point.

 

Knuts drive to make the event cheaper by reducing the head count may have just come back to bite him in the Arse.

 

See on board video from ADOR recently, Sifi is up trimming. Explain that.

This Navigator agrees. Crew number limits mean that navigators who trim and drive are in big demand in this race. That means risk to rheir Nav activity, plus an increased risk of sleep deprivation if they need to spend long hours concentrating off watch.. I usually do watches too when navigating, but if we're in a zone with lots of speed bumps I drop out of watches to stay focused on missing terra firma.

 

+10000. However, I would say that there really is commensurately less for a navigator to do, except strategize position against the other boats and NOT RUN UP ON LAND.

 

And no, there isn't any (good) excuse for a professional boat to run aground on a charted island.

 

None. Nunca. Zed.

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Just got a chance to watch the video. They loss the rudders with the second bang. The steering wheels start spinning freely. It is that or the person on the helm from the leeward side tried to steer onto the reef hard.

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100 miles right to left. How is that center part looking now? Any indication to exercise caution?

 

Out of curiosity, what units are those depth contours in?

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Not sure the navionics app screen shots are all that relevant

 

we know they have Adrena and Expedition - Adrena uses C-Map and Maptech charts, and Expedition uses C-map and a variety of raster charts

 

they appear to have chartplotters, which may or may not have navionics charts.

 

even if the chartplotters have navionics charts, they may well look different on the chartplotter than they look in the navionics app

 

as an aside - i think the navionics app sucks...

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Just got a chance to watch the video. They loss the rudders with the second bang. The steering wheels start spinning freely. It is that or the person on the helm from the leeward side tried to steer onto the reef hard.

Peragrin,

 

I hesitate to say it, because this is totally splitting hairs. After they tack (around the bulb I think) the wheels spin all the way one way, stop abruptly and then back again. Without rudder blades loaded by sway, yaw or waves, how would that happen. I think at this point they are in a few m of water still and the rudders (or at least one) is still there.

 

Again, not that it matters. The die was cast.

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20 miles right to left. It is true that this more highly detailed version of the reef only shows at this level of zoom, but there were plenty of indicators in the others to take caution and even zoom in further.

I think it is difficult to objectively answer your questions in hindsight. In my experience, I have always zoomed in as far as possible when routing a course and cross referenced a paper chart. Obviously, the others successfully navigated around it.

 

Such a sad situation and completely gut wrenching to watch. The situation handled professionally and environmentally for sure.

 

BTW, these look like screen grabs from your phone. What app are you using?

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100 miles right to left. How is that center part looking now? Any indication to exercise caution?

 

Out of curiosity, what units are those depth contours in?

Meters.

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Just got a chance to watch the video. They loss the rudders with the second bang. The steering wheels start spinning freely. It is that or the person on the helm from the leeward side tried to steer onto the reef hard.

Peragrin,

 

I hesitate to say it, because this is totally splitting hairs. After they tack (around the bulb I think) the wheels spin all the way one way, stop abruptly and then back again. Without rudder blades loaded by sway, yaw or waves, how would that happen. I think at this point they are in a few m of water still and the rudders (or at least one) is still there.

 

Again, not that it matters. The die was cast.

You're spot on. Those wheels weren't freewheeling. At least one rudder was going lock to lock.

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20 miles right to left. It is true that this more highly detailed version of the reef only shows at this level of zoom, but there were plenty of indicators in the others to take caution and even zoom in further.

I think it is difficult to objectively answer your questions in hindsight. In my experience, I have always zoomed in as far as possible when routing a course and cross referenced a paper chart. Obviously, the others successfully navigated around it.

 

Such a sad situation and completely gut wrenching to watch. The situation handled professionally and environmentally for sure.

 

BTW, these look like screen grabs from your phone. What app are you using?

Yes, it is the navionics android app. Those are screen grabs. The point is that a cell phone app available for like $25 has everything a barely competent boater needs to avoid that reef.

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From

~1m16, scrolling through 4 different zoom levels.

attachicon.gifvlcsnap-vestas1.jpg

attachicon.gifvlcsnap-vestas2.jpg

attachicon.gifvlcsnap-vestas3.jpg

attachicon.gifvlcsnap-vestas4.jpg

 

well done. smoking gun?

I wonder if they had it in a different color scheme for night and changed when they were trying to figure stuff out. A bright screen like that would be annoying on a dark night.

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20 miles right to left. It is true that this more highly detailed version of the reef only shows at this level of zoom, but there were plenty of indicators in the others to take caution and even zoom in further.

I think it is difficult to objectively answer your questions in hindsight. In my experience, I have always zoomed in as far as possible when routing a course and cross referenced a paper chart. Obviously, the others successfully navigated around it.

 

Such a sad situation and completely gut wrenching to watch. The situation handled professionally and environmentally for sure.

 

BTW, these look like screen grabs from your phone. What app are you using?

Yes, it is the navionics android app. Those are screen grabs. The point is that a cell phone app available for like $25 has everything a barely competent boater needs to avoid that reef.

Ah, righto

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I don't have the charts installed here, but it is quite easy for individual rocks. This is why many of us like the raster Bsb charting. This is somewhat bigger though.

 

That said and without knowing any details of the event, it might be more related to sailing these boats with only 8 people. We sailed the Whitbread 60s with 11 and then 12, which was two watches of 5 and a skipper and navigator floating.

 

We did a Transpac with 8 on the 52, which was 4 x2 on rotating watches and were under-manned. So navigation becomes less of a dedicated role.

 

The Volvo boats will be a lot more boat than a 52 and the race is more demanding that the Transpac, so ...

It is a very important point.

 

Knuts drive to make the event cheaper by reducing the head count may have just come back to bite him in the Arse.

 

See on board video from ADOR recently, Sifi is up trimming. Explain that.

This Navigator agrees. Crew number limits mean that navigators who trim and drive are in big demand in this race. That means risk to rheir Nav activity, plus an increased risk of sleep deprivation if they need to spend long hours concentrating off watch.. I usually do watches too when navigating, but if we're in a zone with lots of speed bumps I drop out of watches to stay focused on missing terra firma.

 

+10000. However, I would say that there really is commensurately less for a navigator to do, except strategize position against the other boats and NOT RUN UP ON LAND.

 

And no, there isn't any (good) excuse for a professional boat to run aground on a charted island.

 

None. Nunca. Zed.

+1

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From

~1m16, scrolling through 4 different zoom levels.

attachicon.gifvlcsnap-vestas1.jpg

attachicon.gifvlcsnap-vestas2.jpg

attachicon.gifvlcsnap-vestas3.jpg

attachicon.gifvlcsnap-vestas4.jpg

 

well done. smoking gun?

I wonder if they had it in a different color scheme for night and changed when they were trying to figure stuff out. A bright screen like that would be annoying on a dark night.

This is the most telling video I've seen.

at 75s you can see what they had up on screen shortly after the impact - no doubt the same as these screen caps. But that doesn't prove that was on screen at the actual moment they hit the bricks, or beforehand, or whether anyone was actively monitoring it. Clearly Nicho was off watch at the impact, can't tell from the vid who was on deck. Looks like 4 up 4 down.

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From

~1m16, scrolling through 4 different zoom levels.

attachicon.gifvlcsnap-vestas1.jpg

attachicon.gifvlcsnap-vestas2.jpg

attachicon.gifvlcsnap-vestas3.jpg

attachicon.gifvlcsnap-vestas4.jpg

 

well done. smoking gun?

I wonder if they had it in a different color scheme for night and changed when they were trying to figure stuff out. A bright screen like that would be annoying on a dark night.

This is the most telling video I've seen.

at 75s you can see what they had up on screen shortly after the impact - no doubt the same as these screen caps. But that doesn't prove that was on screen at the actual moment they hit the bricks, or beforehand, or whether anyone was actively monitoring it. Clearly Nicho was off watch at the impact, can't tell from the vid who was on deck. Looks like 4 up 4 down.

Yeah, those are telling shots. Certainly they are in WTF mode at that point so the lights are on. No question that in that mode the screens make the situation totally evident. I'm just curious to see if a more muted color scheme which is more typical at night obscures the reef. Not that it changes the fundamentals. Just trying to get as much lesson as possible out of the disaster.

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From

~1m16, scrolling through 4 different zoom levels.

attachicon.gifvlcsnap-vestas1.jpg

attachicon.gifvlcsnap-vestas2.jpg

attachicon.gifvlcsnap-vestas3.jpg

attachicon.gifvlcsnap-vestas4.jpg

 

well done. smoking gun?

 

Dunno. I'm not in the blame assignment business.

 

I think it's a good illustration that the reduction of map information is handled in a wrong and potentially deadly manner. Lets interpose a sat picture of the archipelago on the last screen to illustrate. (Quick work going for 95% accuracy or so.)

 

post-106437-0-22195500-1417738819_thumb.jpg

 

This is not a small feature that got dropped out.

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Why do people keep talking of salvage? That boat is toast!

 

 

Although I notice the keel is still attached. Clearly that indicates a well-proven pivot structure, so that should be re-used. (sorry Couchsurfer!)

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^^ so that does answer one question - they were using Expedition rather than Adrena, and did have weather overlays up. And it looks like the "Optimal panel" (7070 or expedition will know for sure).

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Why do people keep talking of salvage? That boat is toast!

 

 

Although I notice the keel is still attached. Clearly that indicates a well-proven pivot structure, so that should be re-used. (sorry Couchsurfer!)

It's a VO 55 now.

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Everybody is talking zoom levels, but that is not what this is about. This is about proper prep. There is a video out there with Ian Walker talking about it and he says that they had outlined that atoll as being an 'exclusion zone' for them. This means that in preparing for the leg, Vestas did not do the same. I imagine that if something is marked as an exclusion zone than there is no way it disappears on the nav software. This then begs the question, why isn't headquarters making sure all boats have outlined all potential known hazards? Such as, say.... a fucking island in the middle of there path that is many miles wide and only a meter or two high?

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Yeah, those are telling shots. Certainly they are in WTF mode at that point so the lights are on. No question that in that mode the screens make the situation totally evident. I'm just curious to see if a more muted color scheme which is more typical at night obscures the reef. Not that it changes the fundamentals. Just trying to get as much lesson as possible out of the disaster.

 

Stills from video shot some time after the impact obviously can't show what was on screen before and during impact. That is something to keep in mind.

 

It does provide a response to questions like "Did their maps even show the reef?" that have been raised earlier.

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From

~1m16, scrolling through 4 different zoom levels.

attachicon.gifvlcsnap-vestas1.jpg

attachicon.gifvlcsnap-vestas2.jpg

attachicon.gifvlcsnap-vestas3.jpg

attachicon.gifvlcsnap-vestas4.jpg

 

well done. smoking gun?

yes, well done and it sure seems like it. And look how long they were on that course (as previously stated). Plenty of time to zoom in and look around.

 

 

there is something visible at all zoom levels.

 

any navigator would, or should, know to investigate further.

 

there's no "smoking gun"..., and i think blaming the software is BS

 

i'm a navigator - i've navigated numerous ocean races...

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This one is 200 miles from right to left. See anything in the center of concern?

.

 

....okay,I get it

 

20 miles right to left. It is true that this more highly detailed version of the reef only shows at this level of zoom, but there were plenty of indicators in the others to take caution and even zoom in further.

 

.yes I really get it.

 

.

 

 

20 miles right to left. It is true that this more highly detailed version of the reef only shows at this level of zoom, but there were plenty of indicators in the others to take caution and even zoom in further.

I think it is difficult to objectively answer your questions in hindsight. In my experience, I have always zoomed in as far as possible when routing a course and cross referenced a paper chart. Obviously, the others successfully navigated around it.

 

Such a sad situation and completely gut wrenching to watch. The situation handled professionally and environmentally for sure.

 

BTW, these look like screen grabs from your phone. What app are you using?

Yes, it is the navionics android app. Those are screen grabs. The point is that a cell phone app available for like $25 has everything a barely competent boater needs to avoid that reef.

.

 

...yes JZ,,we really really REALLY get it now...these sailors were very much less than competent.

. ....happy now?? :mellow:<_<

 

...where can I send you your well deserved Captain Astute hat? :D

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Everybody is talking zoom levels, but that is not what this is about. This is about proper prep. There is a video out there with Ian Walker talking about it and he says that they had outlined that atoll as being an 'exclusion zone' for them. This means that in preparing for the leg, Vestas did not do the same. I imagine that if something is marked as an exclusion zone than there is no way it disappears on the nav software. This then begs the question, why isn't headquarters making sure all boats have outlined all potential known hazards? Such as, say.... a fucking island in the middle of there path that is many miles wide and only a meter or two high?

There's no pre leg preparation spoken of in the video.

 

Ian Walker actually says they "actually didn't have a lot of time to prep" because that the area was a new area "released to them " because of the forming tropical storm. i.e. His prep was done in the days or hours as they approached that area, not in "preparing for the leg" as you say.

 

His talk of `exclusion zone' was describing where the race organisers had previously required them to stay out of that area.

 

He also goes on to talk about zoom levels and how it is easy to miss the reef.

 

Also the island was tiny, it is the reef that is "many miles wide" and it is covered by ocean at high tide and is depicted in a different way to land on the chart.

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[.....]

What are the odds that the boats get an additional body to deal with the fatigue/CRM issues?

 

Just an additional body does not necessarily help. If you want to keep fatigue out of the picture for some roles you need to limit their job list ......

.
...actually I lean towards this answer...simply having an extra crewmember means an instant 15% less fatigue all-round,,,but a designated roll would create a dramatic difference on fatigue and focus all around. I don't like how fatigued some get to be at times.

This is sailing no one gets thrown under a bus.

 

they get Keel Hauled. on a fin keel and bulb 15' draft that really hurts.

 

I am glad they are all right after that mess. i can see why they were taking on water in the stern.

.

 

......actually,this is modern sailing mister. No longer do crew get keel-hauled,that's just barbaric in this day and age.

 

...nowadays it's a simple matter of stuffing the errant fool into the keel mechanism just before a gybe. ;)

 

 

 

Did I get that right? OBR was on the can? Interesting way to avoid trouser stains but certainly a rude surprise.

Also includes more shaky cam chart shots from shortly after the hit. Trying to find a clean one.

.

 

...it'd be hard to find a clean -anything- after that rude awakening...

. .......no wonder they're all running around yelling sh--t!! :wacko:

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Also the island was tiny, it is the reef that is "many miles wide" and it is covered by ocean at high tide and is depicted in a different way to land on the chart.

 

To me, jzk's screenshots are very telling. Even though zoomed out the island and reef don't show, there are a hell of a lot of contours that indicate something is going on with the seabed in that area. I'd take a closer look. And when the word Isle pops up, I'd take a very close look. I'm sad that Vestas doesn't seem to have done the same. Let's face it - if they knew it was there, they wouldn't have hit it. Ergo, it appears they didn't know it was there.

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Couple of comments: it has to be grossly negligent, skipper & navigator have no future. Surely they, together, perused proper charts and "Admiralty Pilot" books (or equiv) ashore, for several hours on end, planning the passage to Dubai from Cape Town. Part of that prep would be awareness of all "hard", rock type features anywhere near their sailing course, as apparently on Ian Walker's boat where the shoal was already ring fenced to be avoided? Sailing north, offshore of Mauritius, that shoal, about 50km long, would surely have been annotated into notes for the course, by any reasonable navigator/skipper combo? Hence, I think, grossly negligent. I agree with comments about lack of major disruption to crew hitting at 19k, blow must have been softened by slowing/breakage of rudders first. We hit rocks off Newport at 10k with 76' of boat, running, and crew went literally flying down the deck as boat stopped dead.

Worth remembering what happened on Condor of Bermuda in '79, when they sailed the boat onto a reef out of Tahiti, due, apparently to elementary navigation errors.

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I wonder about the contrast between merchant navy type protocols and racing boats. AIUI, in the world of commercial marine, you don't get to be master until you've got the requisite ticket. This means that there is a well defined chain of command, and the master can insist on standing orders - thou shalt not leave cups of coffee or plotting tools on the working chart, for instance.

 

The more fluid nature of sporting teams means, I would think, that you can't really do the same. Do you imagine that on any of the Volvo boats, the skipper has given a direct order to the nav to keep the boat off the putty/bricks?

 

Tricky.

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[.....]

What are the odds that the boats get an additional body to deal with the fatigue/CRM issues?

 

Just an additional body does not necessarily help. If you want to keep fatigue out of the picture for some roles you need to limit their job list ......

.
...actually I lean towards this answer...simply having an extra crewmember means an instant 15% less fatigue all-round,,,but a designated roll would create a dramatic difference on fatigue and focus all around. I don't like how fatigued some get to be at times.

Racing is one of those tasks that expand to the limit of the available resources.

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Also the island was tiny, it is the reef that is "many miles wide" and it is covered by ocean at high tide and is depicted in a different way to land on the chart.

 

To me, jzk's screenshots are very telling. Even though zoomed out the island and reef don't show, there are a hell of a lot of contours that indicate something is going on with the seabed in that area. I'd take a closer look. And when the word Isle pops up, I'd take a very close look. I'm sad that Vestas doesn't seem to have done the same. Let's face it - if they knew it was there, they wouldn't have hit it. Ergo, it appears they didn't know it was there.

 

All true.

 

In this thread we have some here saying "I would have taken a look"… well yes, but he didn't, so where did it go wrong?

 

Was he lulled into a false sense of security by the lead pack passing through only 5 miles to the west but well off the `island'?

 

Did he leave the chart on a certain scale to include the island for the on watch crew to check as they approached?

 

When did the race organisers change the exclusion zone obliging the fleet's navigators to do some new planning?

 

I can't believe he wasn't looking up the track and planning his moves with regards to hazards and since it is an effing large coral reef why didn't he see it? It extends past the atolls much farther than most.

 

I still think it is the way the information on the chart is represented at different scales. I don't say this to lift the blame but rather to examine what mistake a tired navigator may have made.

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Fabergekiwi, you are just wrong. This area was an exclusion zone before it was opened up as a result of the Storm so no need to look at it in Cape Town.

Ian Walker had not excluded it the organisers had.

 

There is no way that Nico and Wourter's careers are finished.

 

There is a world of difference in getting it wrong (which they did on their own admission) and being negligent let alone grossly negligent.

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Couple of comments: it has to be grossly negligent, skipper & navigator have no future. Surely they, together, perused proper charts and "Admiralty Pilot" books (or equiv) ashore, for several hours on end, planning the passage to Dubai from Cape Town. Part of that prep would be awareness of all "hard", rock type features anywhere near their sailing course, as apparently on Ian Walker's boat where the shoal was already ring fenced to be avoided? Sailing north, offshore of Mauritius, that shoal, about 50km long, would surely have been annotated into notes for the course, by any reasonable navigator/skipper combo? Hence, I think, grossly negligent. I agree with comments about lack of major disruption to crew hitting at 19k, blow must have been softened by slowing/breakage of rudders first. We hit rocks off Newport at 10k with 76' of boat, running, and crew went literally flying down the deck as boat stopped dead.

Worth remembering what happened on Condor of Bermuda in '79, when they sailed the boat onto a reef out of Tahiti, due, apparently to elementary navigation errors.

First off, I doubt they perused anything in that area while ashore. It was squarely in an exclusion zone. VOR opened that area mid race to let them dodge a storm.

 

Get your facts right before you talk nonsense.

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I wonder about the contrast between merchant navy type protocols and racing boats. AIUI, in the world of commercial marine, you don't get to be master until you've got the requisite ticket. This means that there is a well defined chain of command, and the master can insist on standing orders - thou shalt not leave cups of coffee or plotting tools on the working chart, for instance.

 

The more fluid nature of sporting teams means, I would think, that you can't really do the same. Do you imagine that on any of the Volvo boats, the skipper has given a direct order to the nav to keep the boat off the putty/bricks?

 

Tricky.

In your scenario skipper would be responsible anyway regardless of the standing orders. Sure some blame could be shared but skipper bears the brunt. Do they have a master mariner per boat?

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Also the island was tiny, it is the reef that is "many miles wide" and it is covered by ocean at high tide and is depicted in a different way to land on the chart.

 

To me, jzk's screenshots are very telling. Even though zoomed out the island and reef don't show, there are a hell of a lot of contours that indicate something is going on with the seabed in that area. I'd take a closer look. And when the word Isle pops up, I'd take a very close look. I'm sad that Vestas doesn't seem to have done the same. Let's face it - if they knew it was there, they wouldn't have hit it. Ergo, it appears they didn't know it was there.

 

All true.

 

In this thread we have some here saying "I would have taken a look"… well yes, but he didn't, so where did it go wrong?

 

...

 

When did the race organisers change the exclusion zone obliging the fleet's navigators to do some new planning?

 

I can't believe he wasn't looking up the track and planning his moves with regards to hazards and since it is an effing large coral reef why didn't he see it? It extends past the atolls much farther than most.

 

I still think it is the way the information on the chart is represented at different scales. I don't say this to lift the blame but rather to examine what mistake a tired navigator may have made.

 

Agree. My understanding is that the exclusion zone was lifted less than a day before. What I can't figure is why Vestas didn't examine the new area thoroughly. They would have course notes for everything of interest in the originally available area. A new area is opened up, that hasn't been course-noted - it's nav 101 to peruse that area so you know what's there.

 

Why didn't that happen? My best guess is that the navigator was too busy attending to tactical navigation and didn't get to attend to the basics.

 

I might be wrong, but I just can't see any other scenario that makes sense.

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Also the island was tiny, it is the reef that is "many miles wide" and it is covered by ocean at high tide and is depicted in a different way to land on the chart.

 

To me, jzk's screenshots are very telling. Even though zoomed out the island and reef don't show, there are a hell of a lot of contours that indicate something is going on with the seabed in that area. I'd take a closer look. And when the word Isle pops up, I'd take a very close look. I'm sad that Vestas doesn't seem to have done the same. Let's face it - if they knew it was there, they wouldn't have hit it. Ergo, it appears they didn't know it was there.

 

as i said above - the screenshots are probably not that relevant, because there is no evidence that the boat had those charts

 

neither of the routing programs use navionics charts, so unless a chartplotter was running those charts, they weren't looking at them

 

and because each pl;otter renders charts differently, the navionics app screenshots would be different anyway.

 

the evidence we have now is that they are mostly navigating with c-map charts

 

so, if anyone wants to go down the "software is the problem" route, it might be better to look at the c-map charts.., and to look at them in adrena or expedition

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Also the island was tiny, it is the reef that is "many miles wide" and it is covered by ocean at high tide and is depicted in a different way to land on the chart.

 

To me, jzk's screenshots are very telling. Even though zoomed out the island and reef don't show, there are a hell of a lot of contours that indicate something is going on with the seabed in that area. I'd take a closer look. And when the word Isle pops up, I'd take a very close look. I'm sad that Vestas doesn't seem to have done the same. Let's face it - if they knew it was there, they wouldn't have hit it. Ergo, it appears they didn't know it was there.

 

All true.

 

In this thread we have some here saying "I would have taken a look"… well yes, but he didn't, so where did it go wrong?

 

...

 

When did the race organisers change the exclusion zone obliging the fleet's navigators to do some new planning?

 

I can't believe he wasn't looking up the track and planning his moves with regards to hazards and since it is an effing large coral reef why didn't he see it? It extends past the atolls much farther than most.

 

I still think it is the way the information on the chart is represented at different scales. I don't say this to lift the blame but rather to examine what mistake a tired navigator may have made.

 

Agree. My understanding is that the exclusion zone was lifted less than a day before. What I can't figure is why Vestas didn't examine the new area thoroughly. They would have course notes for everything of interest in the originally available area. A new area is opened up, that hasn't been course-noted - it's nav 101 to peruse that area so you know what's there.

 

Why didn't that happen? My best guess is that the navigator was too busy attending to tactical navigation and didn't get to attend to the basics.

 

I might be wrong, but I just can't see any other scenario that makes sense.

I think you are right, but he also may have looked up the track… remembering that if you are a day or 300 + miles away with many gybe/tack options included in the possibilities; he may not have used the scale necessary for the surrounding reef to show up.

 

These boats cover charts fast with random changes in course thrown in by changes in strategy or tactics.

 

I trust Ian Walker's take and that was that it was "very easily done".

 

A reef this size may as well be shown as land on any scale since only a Hobie 16 can cross it at high tide, but it is not by convention so he stupidly missed it.

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Also the island was tiny, it is the reef that is "many miles wide" and it is covered by ocean at high tide and is depicted in a different way to land on the chart.

To me, jzk's screenshots are very telling. Even though zoomed out the island and reef don't show, there are a hell of a lot of contours that indicate something is going on with the seabed in that area. I'd take a closer look. And when the word Isle pops up, I'd take a very close look. I'm sad that Vestas doesn't seem to have done the same. Let's face it - if they knew it was there, they wouldn't have hit it. Ergo, it appears they didn't know it was there.

as i said above - the screenshots are probably not that relevant, because there is no evidence that the boat had those charts

 

neither of the routing programs use navionics charts, so unless a chartplotter was running those charts, they weren't looking at them

 

and because each pl;otter renders charts differently, the navionics app screenshots would be different anyway.

 

the evidence we have now is that they are mostly navigating with c-map charts

 

so, if anyone wants to go down the "software is the problem" route, it might be better to look at the c-map charts.., and to look at them in adrena or expedition

In the video above, at 1:16 you can see Wouter zooming out and the reef desappears just like on those screenshots. There must be a reason why they included that few seconds of video.

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In the video above, at 1:16 you can see Wouter zooming out and the reef desappears just like on those screenshots. There must be a reason why they included that few seconds of video.

 

I was thinking that too.

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Couple of comments: it has to be grossly negligent, skipper & navigator have no future. Surely they, together, perused proper charts and "Admiralty Pilot" books (or equiv) ashore, for several hours on end, planning the passage to Dubai from Cape Town. Part of that prep would be awareness of all "hard", rock type features anywhere near their sailing course, as apparently on Ian Walker's boat where the shoal was already ring fenced to be avoided? Sailing north, offshore of Mauritius, that shoal, about 50km long, would surely have been annotated into notes for the course, by any reasonable navigator/skipper combo? Hence, I think, grossly negligent. I agree with comments about lack of major disruption to crew hitting at 19k, blow must have been softened by slowing/breakage of rudders first. We hit rocks off Newport at 10k with 76' of boat, running, and crew went literally flying down the deck as boat stopped dead.

Worth remembering what happened on Condor of Bermuda in '79, when they sailed the boat onto a reef out of Tahiti, due, apparently to elementary navigation errors.

Seriously Faberge, you're going to step onto this discussion with your FIRST POST EVER and call these guys grossly negligent? You speak with some apparent 'experience' so I'm guessing sock puppet.

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Also the island was tiny, it is the reef that is "many miles wide" and it is covered by ocean at high tide and is depicted in a different way to land on the chart.

To me, jzk's screenshots are very telling. Even though zoomed out the island and reef don't show, there are a hell of a lot of contours that indicate something is going on with the seabed in that area. I'd take a closer look. And when the word Isle pops up, I'd take a very close look. I'm sad that Vestas doesn't seem to have done the same. Let's face it - if they knew it was there, they wouldn't have hit it. Ergo, it appears they didn't know it was there.

as i said above - the screenshots are probably not that relevant, because there is no evidence that the boat had those charts

 

neither of the routing programs use navionics charts, so unless a chartplotter was running those charts, they weren't looking at them

 

and because each pl;otter renders charts differently, the navionics app screenshots would be different anyway.

 

the evidence we have now is that they are mostly navigating with c-map charts

 

so, if anyone wants to go down the "software is the problem" route, it might be better to look at the c-map charts.., and to look at them in adrena or expedition

In the video above, at 1:16 you can see Wouter zooming out and the reef desappears just like on those screenshots. There must be a reason why they included that few seconds of video.

 

those are the c-map charts, so those are the right ones to be talking about if you want to go down that route.

 

and, we know they are actually the charts he was using - what i was saying is we should not be making conclusions based on the navionics charts, and especially not the app

 

in this thread i posted 6 levels of the c-map charts at the reef and you can see something at every zoom level - it never completely dissapears

 

So, as i said above, speaking as a navigator, there appears to be _plenty_ visible at the most zoomed out level in those screen shots from on board to cause me to examine the feature in more detail.

 

my feeling is that it wasn't the software that was the problem but poor use of the software - assuming the crash happened because he didn't know about the reef.

 

now, it could well be that poor use of the software was caused by lack of sleep, or something like that - i don't know.

 

but as a navigator, i am just not ready to blame the software in this case

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In the video above, at 1:16 you can see Wouter zooming out and the reef desappears just like on those screenshots. There must be a reason why they included that few seconds of video.

 

The 4 screenshots are from exactly that 2 second sequence.

 

And yes, there will be a reason for all of the content. After such an major incident all media releases go trough quite a bit of scrutiny before going public. VOR, Team Vestas, Vestas corporate, ...

Heck, probably even the good old "Will I get a knuckle sandwich if I post this?" trade off.

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At a 20 nm scale, you're only looking at about 70 sailing minutes of chart. IOW, the scale is too small to be of use planning the route for a 20-25 kt yacht. Now, we do know that the atoll shows up at greater scales, particularly if you're looking for them. Two weeks into a leg of rotating watches is a looong race for most of us. On a race to HI, two weeks at sea is only for the 7 ktsbs. I don't think fatigue can be ruled out. This watch schedule for this amount of time in these conditions isn't allowed for any commercial truck driver, airline pilot, or ship's officer on the planet. It"s the game that we choose to play, but we have to acknowledge that it comes with some risks. If you can fall asleep and drive into a ditch, you can drive onto a reef.

 

IMHO, they ought to add up to two bodies/boat. Even if the navigator takes a turn at the wheel, because driving is a shitload of fun, it would increase his/her sleep cycle by 30%.

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At a 20 nm scale, you're only looking at about 70 sailing minutes of chart. IOW, the scale is too small to be of use planning the route for a 20-25 kt yacht. Now, we do know that the atoll shows up at greater scales, particularly if you're looking for them. Two weeks into a leg of rotating watches is a looong race for most of us. On a race to HI, two weeks at sea is only for the 7 ktsbs. I don't think fatigue can be ruled out. This watch schedule for this amount of time in these conditions isn't allowed for any commercial truck driver, airline pilot, or ship's officer on the planet. It"s the game that we choose to play, but we have to acknowledge that it comes with some risks. If you can fall asleep and drive into a ditch, you can drive onto a reef.

 

IMHO, they ought to add up to two bodies/boat. Even if the navigator takes a turn at the wheel, because driving is a shitload of fun, it would increase his/her sleep cycle by 30%.

Maybe an `assigned' navigator per watch.

 

… or an assigned `awake' navigator.

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I lost a 4ksb once.

Was a serious blow the the ego, still get down thinking about it.

These poor guys must be absolutely destroyed.

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but as a navigator, i am just not ready to blame the software in this case

I'm sure Wouter could hold his own in this very discussion. You don't get the job of navigator on a VO 65 without his resume.

 

It's more about understanding all the factors leading up to his/and or crew's mistake.

 

There is always a pattern to human error and it is mostly a cascade of events that contribute.

 

I think that electronic chart scale for this spot in the ocean was a contributing factor as its a huge reef to be left off any scale, don't you think?

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Even if its someone rotating into the on deck team, it's better than an empty seat. At a minimum though, both the primary nav and skipper absolutely need to know what is in front of them on each board, and that has to be passed to the watch captains.

 

I've used Expedition both on offshore passages and inshore coastal races. I'm hard pressed to blame the charting package or software. I have been so f-ing tired that I could barely function.

 

Fatigue leading to a breakdown in command, control, and communications...the holes in the swiss cheese became perfectly aligned with an atoll.

 

That's my guess.

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At a 20 nm scale, you're only looking at about 70 sailing minutes of chart. IOW, the scale is too small to be of use planning the route for a 20-25 kt yacht. Now, we do know that the atoll shows up at greater scales, particularly if you're looking for them. Two weeks into a leg of rotating watches is a looong race for most of us. On a race to HI, two weeks at sea is only for the 7 ktsbs. I don't think fatigue can be ruled out. This watch schedule for this amount of time in these conditions isn't allowed for any commercial truck driver, airline pilot, or ship's officer on the planet. It"s the game that we choose to play, but we have to acknowledge that it comes with some risks. If you can fall asleep and drive into a ditch, you can drive onto a reef.

 

IMHO, they ought to add up to two bodies/boat. Even if the navigator takes a turn at the wheel, because driving is a shitload of fun, it would increase his/her sleep cycle by 30%.

Maybe an `assigned' navigator per watch.

 

… or an assigned `awake' navigator.

Isn't that the watch captain? Skipper and navigator both asleep, the wc looks after the nav and does a handover back when one or the other comes back on deck/watch.

 

Then there's the on-watch crew member who is making coffee and taking a curious look at the plotter to see where they are.

 

OK, that last one might not have happened.

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At a 20 nm scale, you're only looking at about 70 sailing minutes of chart. IOW, the scale is too small to be of use planning the route for a 20-25 kt yacht. Now, we do know that the atoll shows up at greater scales, particularly if you're looking for them. Two weeks into a leg of rotating watches is a looong race for most of us. On a race to HI, two weeks at sea is only for the 7 ktsbs. I don't think fatigue can be ruled out. This watch schedule for this amount of time in these conditions isn't allowed for any commercial truck driver, airline pilot, or ship's officer on the planet. It"s the game that we choose to play, but we have to acknowledge that it comes with some risks. If you can fall asleep and drive into a ditch, you can drive onto a reef.

 

IMHO, they ought to add up to two bodies/boat. Even if the navigator takes a turn at the wheel, because driving is a shitload of fun, it would increase his/her sleep cycle by 30%.

Maybe an `assigned' navigator per watch.

 

… or an assigned `awake' navigator.

Isn't that the watch captain? Skipper and navigator both asleep, the wc looks after the nav and does a handover back when one or the other comes back on deck/watch.

 

Then there's the on-watch crew member who is making coffee and taking a curious look at the plotter to see where they are.

 

OK, that last one might not have happened.

I wonder how `formed' their watches are?

 

Warm weather, sometimes a lot of work, sometimes none.

 

Assigned roles get hazy?

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...all a good plan....I have a feeling everyone will be taking a regular look now. :huh:

 

 

. ...one less set of eyes to spot an inevitable container! :o

 

 

....of course the blamesayers will blab about too many heads below-decks! :lol:

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Just finished catching up on the latest 100 posts or so... a couple random thoughts about the latest thinking...

 

- Comments about Nico falling on his sword and bringing an un-named crew member with him... I don't think he fell on his sword at all. He said it's ultimately his responsibility, but then thoroughly set up the point that as skipper, he must be able to trust each crew member to do their job, and one crew member was essentially at fault for the whole thing. It appears to me that he's chucking that guy (presumably Wouter) on the sword and saying his only mistake was to trust that guy. I'm not judging Nico, as I think his feelings may be somewhat fair, and we don't know the whole story yet... I just didn't hear him falling on his sword in those comments.

 

- As a few people have said, most disasters aren't due to a single root cause. They're due to a series of events that come together to produce the end result. This wasn't a reckless, inexperienced, or stupid navigator. It was a chain of events. Will part of the conclusion be that the one un-named person made serious mistakes as part of the equation? Probably. Hard to imagine that isn't part of it. Is the zoom part of it? Probably. Is the fact that this happened in an area that was exclusion zone until shortly before the start, and therefore there was little time to research the possible hazards prior to the start? Probably. Given that the event happened a couple weeks after the actual start, should that hazard research have been completed aboard by the time they arrived? Probably. Was fatigue a factor? Probably. Were there other factors that none of us has thought of yet? Probably. Is there a single root cause that can explain the whole event? No way. It's a combination of events.

 

- Don't forget that Dongfeng almost did the same thing. As far as I can tell, the only reason they altered course at the last minute while Vestas plowed into the reef was that Dongfeng arrived before sunset. I'm hoping that when they do their root cause analysis, they involve Dongfeng to see whether or not there were commonalities in between the near miss and the brutal hit. I'm guessing yes, and those commonalities would likely need the most urgent attention because those would be factors that could imply continued risk for the remaining 6 competitors if not resolved.

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From

~1m16, scrolling through 4 different zoom levels.

attachicon.gifvlcsnap-vestas1.jpg

attachicon.gifvlcsnap-vestas2.jpg

attachicon.gifvlcsnap-vestas3.jpg

attachicon.gifvlcsnap-vestas4.jpg

 

well done. smoking gun?

 

Dunno. I'm not in the blame assignment business.

 

I think it's a good illustration that the reduction of map information is handled in a wrong and potentially deadly manner. Lets interpose a sat picture of the archipelago on the last screen to illustrate. (Quick work going for 95% accuracy or so.)

 

attachicon.gifvlcsnap-vestas4+sat.jpg

 

This is not a small feature that got dropped out.

great work

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Just finished catching up on the latest 100 posts or so... a couple random thoughts about the latest thinking...

 

- Comments about Nico falling on his sword and bringing an un-named crew member with him... I don't think he fell on his sword at all. He said it's ultimately his responsibility, but then thoroughly set up the point that as skipper, he must be able to trust each crew member to do their job, and one crew member was essentially at fault for the whole thing. It appears to me that he's chucking that guy (presumably Wouter) on the sword and saying his only mistake was to trust that guy. I'm not judging Nico, as I think his feelings may be somewhat fair, and we don't know the whole story yet... I just didn't hear him falling on his sword in those comments.

 

- As a few people have said, most disasters aren't due to a single root cause. They're due to a series of events that come together to produce the end result. This wasn't a reckless, inexperienced, or stupid navigator. It was a chain of events. Will part of the conclusion be that the one un-named person made serious mistakes as part of the equation? Probably. Hard to imagine that isn't part of it. Is the zoom part of it? Probably. Is the fact that this happened in an area that was exclusion zone until shortly before the start, and therefore there was little time to research the possible hazards prior to the start? Probably. Given that the event happened a couple weeks after the actual start, should that hazard research have been completed aboard by the time they arrived? Probably. Was fatigue a factor? Probably. Were there other factors that none of us has thought of yet? Probably. Is there a single root cause that can explain the whole event? No way. It's a combination of events.

 

- Don't forget that Dongfeng almost did the same thing. As far as I can tell, the only reason they altered course at the last minute while Vestas plowed into the reef was that Dongfeng arrived before sunset. I'm hoping that when they do their root cause analysis, they involve Dongfeng to see whether or not there were commonalities in between the near miss and the brutal hit. I'm guessing yes, and those commonalities would likely need the most urgent attention because those would be factors that could imply continued risk for the remaining 6 competitors if not resolved.

Thanks Mum.

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Just finished catching up on the latest 100 posts or so... a couple random thoughts about the latest thinking...

 

- Comments about Nico falling on his sword and bringing an un-named crew member with him... I don't think he fell on his sword at all. He said it's ultimately his responsibility, but then thoroughly set up the point that as skipper, he must be able to trust each crew member to do their job, and one crew member was essentially at fault for the whole thing. It appears to me that he's chucking that guy (presumably Wouter) on the sword and saying his only mistake was to trust that guy. I'm not judging Nico, as I think his feelings may be somewhat fair, and we don't know the whole story yet... I just didn't hear him falling on his sword in those comments.

 

- As a few people have said, most disasters aren't due to a single root cause. They're due to a series of events that come together to produce the end result. This wasn't a reckless, inexperienced, or stupid navigator. It was a chain of events. Will part of the conclusion be that the one un-named person made serious mistakes as part of the equation? Probably. Hard to imagine that isn't part of it. Is the zoom part of it? Probably. Is the fact that this happened in an area that was exclusion zone until shortly before the start, and therefore there was little time to research the possible hazards prior to the start? Probably. Given that the event happened a couple weeks after the actual start, should that hazard research have been completed aboard by the time they arrived? Probably. Was fatigue a factor? Probably. Were there other factors that none of us has thought of yet? Probably. Is there a single root cause that can explain the whole event? No way. It's a combination of events.

 

- Don't forget that Dongfeng almost did the same thing. As far as I can tell, the only reason they altered course at the last minute while Vestas plowed into the reef was that Dongfeng arrived before sunset. I'm hoping that when they do their root cause analysis, they involve Dongfeng to see whether or not there were commonalities in between the near miss and the brutal hit. I'm guessing yes, and those commonalities would likely need the most urgent attention because those would be factors that could imply continued risk for the remaining 6 competitors if not resolved.

Well reasoned, Mom. You raise some valid points.

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Also the island was tiny, it is the reef that is "many miles wide" and it is covered by ocean at high tide and is depicted in a different way to land on the chart.

 

To me, jzk's screenshots are very telling. Even though zoomed out the island and reef don't show, there are a hell of a lot of contours that indicate something is going on with the seabed in that area. I'd take a closer look. And when the word Isle pops up, I'd take a very close look. I'm sad that Vestas doesn't seem to have done the same. Let's face it - if they knew it was there, they wouldn't have hit it. Ergo, it appears they didn't know it was there.

 

All true.

 

In this thread we have some here saying "I would have taken a look"… well yes, but he didn't, so where did it go wrong?

 

...

 

When did the race organisers change the exclusion zone obliging the fleet's navigators to do some new planning?

 

I can't believe he wasn't looking up the track and planning his moves with regards to hazards and since it is an effing large coral reef why didn't he see it? It extends past the atolls much farther than most.

 

I still think it is the way the information on the chart is represented at different scales. I don't say this to lift the blame but rather to examine what mistake a tired navigator may have made.

 

Agree. My understanding is that the exclusion zone was lifted less than a day before. What I can't figure is why Vestas didn't examine the new area thoroughly. They would have course notes for everything of interest in the originally available area. A new area is opened up, that hasn't been course-noted - it's nav 101 to peruse that area so you know what's there.

 

Why didn't that happen? My best guess is that the navigator was too busy attending to tactical navigation and didn't get to attend to the basics.

 

I might be wrong, but I just can't see any other scenario that makes sense.

 

 

I agree.

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The remark about the 3-4000 deep (and ft vs meters) made me think that if they where not where they should have been: Deeper water is was to the east of the Island. Perhaps the driver did something different than expected.

 

Two things striked me as odd watching the replay. All day and in similar wind conditions the TWA of V is 130-140 just like the rest of the fleet and when they make the final major course change and take on the collision course towards the island the this is due to a sudden TWA shifts from the 130-140 towards the 110-120. TWA stays in that range and speed is much much faster than at TWA 130-140 but VMG with wind around 14knt lower. Why would they do that?

 

With the TWA at 130-140 and wind shifting form 240 - 270 they would have easly steared clear and east of the island

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Isn't that the watch captain? Skipper and navigator both asleep, the wc looks after the nav and does a handover back when one or the other comes back on deck/watch.

 

Then there's the on-watch crew member who is making coffee and taking a curious look at the plotter to see where they are.

 

OK, that last one might not have happened.

 

Ha! Finally the guilty party has been identified by this Sailing Anarchy Kangaroo Court. After all the On Board Restaurateur was on the can and not checking the course during the crash. By own admission, no less.

 

That said, I doubt that the OBRs know how to use Expedition and recognize the signs that zooming in further to find hard bits is a must in a given area. Even if we ignore for a moment that they are not supposed to navigate.

 

 

Edit:

I concur, not a single failure accident. As virtually every single time it's a chain of events that led to the result.

Which is why abort conditions are used in other areas. Situations where something goes wrong (say loosing an engine while crossing a river bar) and where a second failure (any second failure) has way too much of a chance to led to disaster.

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The remark about the 3-4000 deep (and ft vs meters) made me think that if they where not where they should have been: Deeper water is was to the east of the Island. Perhaps the driver did something different than expected.

 

Two things striked me as odd watching the replay. All day and in similar wind conditions the TWA of V is 130-140 just like the rest of the fleet and when they make the final major course change and take on the collision course towards the island the this is due to a sudden TWA shifts from the 130-140 towards the 110-120. TWA stays in that range and speed is much much faster than at TWA 130-140 but VMG with wind around 14knt lower. Why would they do that?

 

With the TWA at 130-140 and wind shifting form 240 - 270 they would have easly steared clear and east of the island,

 

Interesting. So are you thinking the driver was on the wrong angle?

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those are the c-map charts, so those are the right ones to be talking about if you want to go down that route.

 

and, we know they are actually the charts he was using - what i was saying is we should not be making conclusions based on the navionics charts, and especially not the app

 

in this thread i posted 6 levels of the c-map charts at the reef and you can see something at every zoom level - it never completely dissapears

 

So, as i said above, speaking as a navigator, there appears to be _plenty_ visible at the most zoomed out level in those screen shots from on board to cause me to examine the feature in more detail.

 

my feeling is that it wasn't the software that was the problem but poor use of the software - assuming the crash happened because he didn't know about the reef.

 

now, it could well be that poor use of the software was caused by lack of sleep, or something like that - i don't know.

 

but as a navigator, i am just not ready to blame the software in this case

 

I agree completely...

 

However, since we're talking about C-Map, here, I'll just mention this anomaly I ran into last summer up in Labrador. Again, this has nothing to do with what I suspect may or may not have happened aboard VESTAS WIND - but is simply a reminder that e-charts can sometimes offer up something in the way of a surprise...

 

I was running this area in very heavy fog. A bit discomfiting, as my radar had gone tits up halfway up the coast of Nova Scotia about 6 weeks earlier... When I got to this spot, no amount of further zooming would pull up any detail in this curious 'void' in the C-Map coverage. Turned out to be a very tricky spot with several unmarked ledges, one could very easily lose a boat here:

 

 

c-mapvoid_zps653cabfc.jpg

 

 

I was also running Navionics on an iPad, which showed the requisite detail... However, all of my planning was initially done on paper, the appropriate chart always folded in quarters on my puny nav table... That coast is so intricate, the only safe way - at least for me - to gain the big picture at a glance is with paper, the amount of zooming one has to do on a 10" plotter, or an iPad could quickly drive one mad...

 

For the coast of Labrador alone, that's 49 CHS charts... At $19.80 a pop from Maryland Nautical Sales, that adds up to a pretty expensive pile of paper...

 

For me, worth every penny - that's my insurance, after all... So, it would take a far braver man than I, to cruise Newfoundland or Labrador without the necessary paper charts...

 

'Cause, well, you just never know... :-))

 

 

grandbruitchart.jpg

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Couple more random thoughts:

 

Re: poor prep of new territory etc... I seem to recall a video on one of the Inside Tracks or suchlike of a Vestas team member saying they were time pressured trying to get everything ready in time for the start. Perhaps they in fact didn't pre-prepare well enough? A casualty of a lesser funded team & less shore based numbers? Just postulating.

 

I also recall mention that Wouter has his own software written for navigation/route selection that is designed to exclude random routes or suchlike. I wonder if the use of this contributed? The way other teams stated this was easy to do suggests not though.

 

Considering some ex-Telefonica Blue team members are going around this time, we haven't heard much from Bekking or SiFi about this. Wasn't Nico also on Movistar?

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Vestas did loose some of there laptops on the first leg . We all know how long it can take before all settings on a new one are the same.

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those are the c-map charts, so those are the right ones to be talking about if you want to go down that route.

 

and, we know they are actually the charts he was using - what i was saying is we should not be making conclusions based on the navionics charts, and especially not the app

 

in this thread i posted 6 levels of the c-map charts at the reef and you can see something at every zoom level - it never completely dissapears

 

So, as i said above, speaking as a navigator, there appears to be _plenty_ visible at the most zoomed out level in those screen shots from on board to cause me to examine the feature in more detail.

 

my feeling is that it wasn't the software that was the problem but poor use of the software - assuming the crash happened because he didn't know about the reef.

 

now, it could well be that poor use of the software was caused by lack of sleep, or something like that - i don't know.

 

but as a navigator, i am just not ready to blame the software in this case

 

I agree completely...

 

However, since we're talking about C-Map, here, I'll just mention this anomaly I ran into last summer up in Labrador. Again, this has nothing to do with what I suspect may or may not have happened aboard VESTAS WIND - but is simply a reminder that e-charts can sometimes offer up something in the way of a surprise...

 

I was running this area in very heavy fog. A bit discomfiting, as my radar had gone tits up halfway up the coast of Nova Scotia about 6 weeks earlier... When I got to this spot, no amount of further zooming would pull up any detail in this curious 'void' in the C-Map coverage. Turned out to be a very tricky spot with several unmarked ledges, one could very easily lose a boat here:

 

 

c-mapvoid_zps653cabfc.jpg

 

 

I was also running Navionics on an iPad, which showed the requisite detail... However, all of my planning was initially done on paper, the appropriate chart always folded in quarters on my puny nav table... That coast is so intricate, the only safe way - at least for me - to gain the big picture at a glance is with paper, the amount of zooming one has to do on a 10" plotter, or an iPad could quickly drive one mad...

 

For the coast of Labrador alone, that's 49 CHS charts... At $19.80 a pop from Maryland Nautical Sales, that adds up to a pretty expensive pile of paper...

 

For me, worth every penny - that's my insurance, after all... So, it would take a far braver man than I, to cruise Newfoundland or Labrador without the necessary paper charts...

 

'Cause, well, you just never know... :-))

 

 

grandbruitchart.jpg

 

 

i see problems with C-Map on Expedition where the charts are "quilted"

 

I think I only see it where charts of different native scales are adjacent to each other..

 

so, if you have an area with a larger scale chart adjacent to a smaller scale chart, it will sometimes display nothing - just grey - in place of one of the charts at some zoom levels, when the program is trying to zoom each chart by a different amount to display them at the same display scale - i hope that makes sense....

 

one area where this can happen is at Middle Ground / Stratford Shoal in Long Island Sound - something you definitely want to be careful not to run in to..

 

another area, i just noticed today is off of St. Augustine Florida

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Anyone know if there's a version of the video with the curse words bleeped out? While F-bombs and S-bombs would definitely be part of my vocabulary under similar circumstances, and S-bombs are hilarious with a French accent, I'd like to be able to show the video to my son with full audio without adding those words to his vocabulary...

.

 

 

....the G rated version should be out in a month or two :);)

I'll see what i can do

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Just curious, can you crash tack one of these canters, and how long does it take?

.

 

.....if you don't mind going from ~3' draft to ~15' :mellow:

 

Two good points for anyone thinking "Could the helmsman have thrown the helm over if he was in doubt?"

 

1. The boat on the other tack would have been on it's ear with shit everywhere in the dark… i.e. high risk of MOB.

 

2. The keel would most likely have struck as it arced down through the tack anyway

 

Makes you realise it's not easy to throw an instant manoeuvre at a fully powered up canter.

 

My 1.04c worth.

 

 

In hindsight of course, wouldn't the correct course of action be to simply bear away? From video they appear to be sailing close-hauled on port tack. The waves first appear on port side. This is consistent with google earth images that show the boat approached the reef at a point where it is oriented SW to NE. Simply bearing away from the shallow stuff at port to a NNE course might have allowed them to quickly get back in deeper water. No tack necessary. Said with 20/20 hindsight from the comfort of a keyboard.

By tacking there was a good change the momentum would have spun and carried the boat through the impact zone, as the keel would have been in deep water. Some damage obviously, perhaps not as catastrophic. In cases like this the only person with the ability to be in charge is the helmsman. Intuitive reaction is the only course of action. Sadly missing.

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Couple more random thoughts:

 

Re: poor prep of new territory etc... I seem to recall a video on one of the Inside Tracks or suchlike of a Vestas team member saying they were time pressured trying to get everything ready in time for the start. Perhaps they in fact didn't pre-prepare well enough? A casualty of a lesser funded team & less shore based numbers? Just postulating.

Given the reef in question was excluded from the race course until the low deepened in the day or two before the accident, would you expect the navigator to preprep for this bit of ocean?

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i see problems with C-Map on Expedition where the charts are "quilted"

 

I think I only see it where charts of different native scales are adjacent to each other..

 

so, if you have an area with a larger scale chart adjacent to a smaller scale chart, it will sometimes display nothing - just grey - in place of one of the charts at some zoom levels, when the program is trying to zoom each chart by a different amount to display them at the same display scale - i hope that makes sense....

 

Thanks, that makes perfect sense, to me... I've definitely seen some of that "quilted" effect along the south coast of Newfoundland before...

 

However, the area I pictured above, I'm almost certain the scales of the adjacent charts would have been the same...

 

Thanks again, that's good to know...

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Talking to Brian on skype. He just confirmed he was on the shitter.

 

was putting cream on my leg for the salt water rash and ended up fly through the air and hitting the front Bulk head with my boxers around my ankles

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All the talk above about navionics screenshots being irrelevant is just so much bullshit.

 

As I understand it both C-Map and Navionics produce vector charts and not raster charts and as such have, if not identical, certainly very similar 'disappearing tricks' as one zooms out the scale.

 

Raster charts are effectively digital photographs of the paper chart and as such - my understanding of it anyway - require more capacity in memory and processor speed and the image teds to break up (pixelate) if zoomed too much.

 

Raster charts tend to be produced by the national surveyors (UKHO etc) while vector charts are what the private sector generally produce.

 

The above is evidenced by the actual screenshots int he Vestas video in any case.

 

SS

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The remark about the 3-4000 deep (and ft vs meters) made me think that if they where not where they should have been: Deeper water is was to the east of the Island. Perhaps the driver did something different than expected.

 

Two things striked me as odd watching the replay. All day and in similar wind conditions the TWA of V is 130-140 just like the rest of the fleet and when they make the final major course change and take on the collision course towards the island the this is due to a sudden TWA shifts from the 130-140 towards the 110-120. TWA stays in that range and speed is much much faster than at TWA 130-140 but VMG with wind around 14knt lower. Why would they do that?

 

With the TWA at 130-140 and wind shifting form 240 - 270 they would have easly steared clear and east of the island,

 

Interesting. So are you thinking the driver was on the wrong angle?

 

At 12.40 speed drops and boat starts to steer a more Northern course, Speeds gets back up but TWA stays in 110-120 and closer towards the Island drops even further

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Mom,

 

Your analysis may be correct but this area was excluded until about a day before they all got there. With the approaching storm it was taken off exclusion. No need to look in Cape Town.

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All the talk above about navionics screenshots being irrelevant is just so much bullshit.

 

As I understand it both C-Map and Navionics produce vector charts and not raster charts and as such have, if not identical, certainly very similar 'disappearing tricks' as one zooms out the scale.

 

Raster charts are effectively digital photographs of the paper chart and as such - my understanding of it anyway - require more capacity in memory and processor speed and the image teds to break up (pixelate) if zoomed too much.

 

Raster charts tend to be produced by the national surveyors (UKHO etc) while vector charts are what the private sector generally produce.

 

The above is evidenced by the actual screenshots int he Vestas video in any case.

 

SS

 

 

Vector charts are made directly from the original raster charts - they even have the same chart boundaries.

 

not only are vector charts from different manufacturers not the same.., but even vector charts from the same manufacturer can look different when viewed in different PC software or different chartplotters.

 

different programming can have a given feature show up at a different zoom level.

 

this is only partly because of the different programming, it is also because of one of the great "features" of vector charts: the software can allow the user to customize the view pretty extensively.

 

for example - when working with c-map vector charts in expedition, as i mentioned above, i usually turn off all the blue coloring that indicates different water depth. in my display, the water is white everywhere, at every depth

 

another thing i sometimes do, is turn off all the soundings if it's too cluttered

 

and so on

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Its gross negligence. It is an intentional and voluntary disregard of the need to use reasonable care. Reasonable care is periodically checking the chart for the upcoming course of the boat. Whoever was supposed to do that didn't.

 

I have no doubt he WAS checking the electronic chart regularly.

 

The question is whether he was grossly negligent in not knowing that a reef (particularly of that large size) could be left off the screen at certain scales.

 

or… whether it is grossly negligent not to have the paper charts out at the same time throughout the race. (which I personally think is not workable with those boats' navigatorium setups)

After reading a few posts, this trsikes me as an excellent example of why a mariner should be plotting his course regularaly on a PAPER chart when approaching a nasty lanfall rather than relying on the elctronic toys in the cockpit. Shit happens, so it's always good to have some paper available as a remedy.

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Its gross negligence. It is an intentional and voluntary disregard of the need to use reasonable care. Reasonable care is periodically checking the chart for the upcoming course of the boat. Whoever was supposed to do that didn't.

 

I have no doubt he WAS checking the electronic chart regularly.

 

The question is whether he was grossly negligent in not knowing that a reef (particularly of that large size) could be left off the screen at certain scales.

 

or… whether it is grossly negligent not to have the paper charts out at the same time throughout the race. (which I personally think is not workable with those boats' navigatorium setups)

After reading a few posts, this trsikes me as an excellent example of why a mariner should be plotting his course regularaly on a PAPER chart when approaching a nasty lanfall rather than relying on the elctronic toys in the cockpit. Shit happens, so it's always good to have some paper available as a remedy.

 

Sounds great in theory on the internet...

 

in practice things typically happen to fast on modern race boats to be playing with parallel rulers, and very few modern race navigators are regularly plotting positions on paper charts.

 

if you think that's too risky.., well, no body is forcing you to get on a race boat.., and you are welcome to run your own boat any way you like

 

anyway, i'm pretty sure that proportionally fewer boats run aground now then they before there were chart plotters

 

I will say i always have paper charts, and i always study them before every race, i occasionally refer to them in a race, but i rarely plot positions on them.

 

as i said above - i plot danger bearings, make notes, and do all that traditional stuff right on the electronic chart

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different programming can have a given feature show up at a different zoom level.

 

this is only partly because of the different programming, it is also because of one of the great "features" of vector charts: the software can allow the user to customize the view pretty extensively.

 

for example - when working with c-map vector charts in expedition, as i mentioned above, i usually turn off all the blue coloring that indicates different water depth. in my display, the water is white everywhere, at every depth

 

another thing i sometimes do, is turn off all the soundings if it's too cluttered

 

and so on

Can you change the transparency of layers in Expedition? I noticed that the routing was directly over the reef. Perhaps if the alpha level was lowered it wouldn't have obscured the data under it.

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different programming can have a given feature show up at a different zoom level.

 

this is only partly because of the different programming, it is also because of one of the great "features" of vector charts: the software can allow the user to customize the view pretty extensively.

 

for example - when working with c-map vector charts in expedition, as i mentioned above, i usually turn off all the blue coloring that indicates different water depth. in my display, the water is white everywhere, at every depth

 

another thing i sometimes do, is turn off all the soundings if it's too cluttered

 

and so on

Can you change the transparency of layers in Expedition? I noticed that the routing was directly over the reef. Perhaps if the alpha level was lowered it wouldn't have obscured the data under it.

 

not sure what you mean

 

transparency of what layers?

 

what do you mean by "the routing was over the reef"? what routing?

 

are you referring to a particular screen shot?

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different programming can have a given feature show up at a different zoom level.

 

this is only partly because of the different programming, it is also because of one of the great "features" of vector charts: the software can allow the user to customize the view pretty extensively.

 

for example - when working with c-map vector charts in expedition, as i mentioned above, i usually turn off all the blue coloring that indicates different water depth. in my display, the water is white everywhere, at every depth

 

another thing i sometimes do, is turn off all the soundings if it's too cluttered

 

and so on

Can you change the transparency of layers in Expedition? I noticed that the routing was directly over the reef. Perhaps if the alpha level was lowered it wouldn't have obscured the data under it.

 

not sure what you mean

 

transparency of what layers?

 

what do you mean by "the routing was over the reef"? what routing?

 

are you referring to a particular screen shot?

In the screen shots above you can see the routing they were following as a line with a wind arrow at each step. In the shots they are zoomed in and the lines aren't covering anything important. However, when I've used Expedition the routing paths paint as big, wide lines that overwrite everything on the screen when zoomed out. But I don't use Expedition for navigation so I'm not very familiar with it. In theory when the lines get drawn on the canvas of the screen it is possible to let the layers under them show through (ie. they could be drawn with with some level of transparency). I was wondering if you can do that in practice. My thought being that when zoomed out the problem wasn't the lack of data but that the lower layers were obscured by the routing data.

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Could it be as simple as this:

 

When the new racing area was opened up, being that they were chasing, there was too much focus tactics and looking long term, rather than what was just ahead of them?

 

Real shame to see a 4 month old boat sitting like this. Even in the in port race, and in the round the cans part at the start of this leg, there seemed to be problems onboard. Hopefully they can sort something out to get back out there, one way or another.

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different programming can have a given feature show up at a different zoom level.

 

this is only partly because of the different programming, it is also because of one of the great "features" of vector charts: the software can allow the user to customize the view pretty extensively.

 

for example - when working with c-map vector charts in expedition, as i mentioned above, i usually turn off all the blue coloring that indicates different water depth. in my display, the water is white everywhere, at every depth

 

another thing i sometimes do, is turn off all the soundings if it's too cluttered

 

and so on

Can you change the transparency of layers in Expedition? I noticed that the routing was directly over the reef. Perhaps if the alpha level was lowered it wouldn't have obscured the data under it.

 

not sure what you mean

 

transparency of what layers?

 

what do you mean by "the routing was over the reef"? what routing?

 

are you referring to a particular screen shot?

In the screen shots above you can see the routing they were following as a line with a wind arrow at each step. In the shots they are zoomed in and the lines aren't covering anything important. However, when I've used Expedition the routing paths paint as big, wide lines that overwrite everything on the screen when zoomed out. But I don't use Expedition for navigation so I'm not very familiar with it. In theory when the lines get drawn on the canvas of the screen it is possible to let the layers under them show through (ie. they could be drawn with with some level of transparency). I was wondering if you can do that in practice. My thought being that when zoomed out the problem wasn't the lack of data but that the lower layers were obscured by the routing data.

 

i haven't seen the optimal route lines be so wide they cover anything important...

 

if you have "shade time sensitivity" turned on, they will be much wider, but transparent.

 

can you show me a screen shot?